Atheists on HubPages have always insisted that God does not exist because He is just a man-made concept and as is with any other concept His reality, unless physically inferred and proven can not be rationally accepted.
Gravity, was just a concept until man put meaning, and purpose, and utility to it in his everyday life. Justice is just a concept, until man defined it and gave it form, and utility in his everyday life. Both exist exist in the way God exist... not in any physically proven reality, but in the way they affect our everyday actions, which we may not otherwise do if they don't exist.
All gods are man-made, that is why there are so many gods with so many different characteristics.
Your analogies are not very good, the Law of Gravity was discovered, it was always there and one day someone very smart just notice it.
Justice is just something we invented, so i guess the gods are just like justice, but i think this was not what you were thinking about when you came up with that analogy.
Let me try another tact....Einstein conceptualized that anything with mass has energy and vice versa. This led to his elegant equation
E=mc(2). Other similarly
locked on to the idea and qstarted to give it meaningful form, purpose, and utility....so now we have the reality of the atom bpmb
Actually mass and energy are the same thing as proposed by Einstein.
And i don't know what that as to do with the invention of a god...
The existence of God and the existence of the atom bomb both became realities because of man's ability to conceptualize.
......and to act on these concepts by emparting them with meaning,purpose, and utility.
So, Santa Claus, mermaids, unicorns and fairies are also real just because we have a word for them?
So whatever else are out there in the universe do not exist because man has not put a name/word on them yet? Intellect without imagination is like a plane without an engine. Humans conceptualize the existence of Santa Claus, unicorns, and fairies because they fill the void of a greater narrative... that of unfettered, untramelled creativity.
Oh, i misunderstood your point, i thought you were arguing that a god was something real, if you are saying it is just a product of our imagination i have no dispute with you.
You obviously missed the more important point I was making and that is: man, should he not self -destruct first, would need to be supremely creative during his journey or quest to understand the mysteries of the universe and its Creator. Being creative involves the ability to conceptualize and put meaning and purpose and utility to those concepts.
I thought this topic was about something we can call god...
And yes, imagination is probably the best tool we have for advance our knowledge...
Could be, AV. A philosopher named Feuerbach said that man needed a God so he created the concept. I don't agree with that view, however, it could indeed be true.
God is the ultimate concept and for man to think that He exist,not in any material way is the ultimate leap of faith...one that is teethered on the belief that not everything in the universe is physical and material.
Yes I agree. There was a time when there was an individual god for everything. Sun god,moon god rain god hunting god harvest god etc. the updated or slowly revised version consolidated them all into one god. I watch in total disbelief as I see a coach pray with his football team to god to win the game.if that were true they wouldn't even have to play . . .would they?
As I have always said, consolidate, consolidate, conSOLidate!
PS: Trying to let you 'hear' my voice through writing...I've always hoped it would help the reader understand the writer. It's like hearing thru your keyboard. Make sense?
I don't know what you mean. Could you expand on this?
Hey Lorlie. Sorry about any confusion. I am addressing AV
Kindly read all the threads, in my various conversation with the other hubbers, that I posted on this forum. I think those threads will adequately answer your question. If, after reading those threads, you find that you still don't quite get what I am trying to say... please call my attention and I'd be more tan happy to initiate our conversation.
Gravity is a fact that you can test any time that you want.
How do you test god?
Unless you can demonstrate a god to exist (like you can do with gravity) then why should anyone believe a god exists?
That is a poor comparison by the way. God and gravity.
If you read all my posts, it is clear that my intent was not to compare God with gravity and justice but to point out the fact that they are concepts that exists in reality because man gave them meaning, purpose, and utility. God ex ists ethereally, gravity exists astro- physically, justice exists legally. By the way, Stephen Hawkings the pre-eminent physicist of our generation, considers Gravity and God are one and the same entity....a god that in his view is an impersonal one.
How are you defining "god"?
Stephen Hawking does not believe in any god in the common sense. Of course, I wouldnt care if he did. I make up my own mind based on evidence. I dont look at what other people believe and copy them.
If you are not comparing a god to gravity then why are you talking about gravity?
Also, if "god exists" like you claim, then prove it. If you cant, then you shouldn't be asserting it.
Wow, Jesus, you sound more like a hippy here! Anyway, since my surgery on March 14th, I had a sort of 're-birth' experience. The surgery and all the confusion that followed may have led to this 'conversion', I don't know, but I've now accepted Christ/Buddha/and others into my life-Heinz 57, don't you think?
Anyway, even though I've had this spiritual experience/revelation, I am not able to define God. Nor would I try. He is real-for me-and I HAVE no evidence-never will, I'm afraid-of His existence.
All I now have is my faith.
lorlie, I find it interesting that you found god or faith after a surgery. I had a similar experience twice, in that I actually had the risk of death -- once when I was diagnosed with stage 3b cancer, and a second time after my first surgery where I had an internal perforation and was slowly dying had I not went back into emergency surgery. Yet, despite all that I went through, I never deviated from my atheistic feelings. I never felt any type of belief toward a god.
That being said, if you found peace and happiness in your recent discovery, I find that positive and am in no way trying to tell you that you're incorrect. Just sharing my similar experience and differing outcome.
jdflom, thanks for the post! I certainly appreciate the medical issues you went through, and have no problem with your atheistic 'faith'. Mine was simply a different reaction to all the stress, perhaps, and we'll see if it 'sticks'! I think it will, though, since I've considered myself an agnostic since I was a child. Now I feel comfortable in my 'Heinz 57' sort of spiritualism.
All the best to you!!
Conversely, if "God does not exist" like you claim, then you shouldn't be asserting it. You are entitled to your belief as I am to mine.
I believe that a Supreme Being/God exist because my instinctual perception led me to that conclusion. Was the creation of the universe just a happenstance affair, initiated by nothing more than the loosening of the cohesive forceforce that kept the energy contained in a sphere, a circle. Of all the geometric, the circle (zero in mathematical terms) comes closest to intimating the nature or essence of the Energy (God) that created the universe.
When one looks along the path of a perfect circle, one could never know from what point is its beginning and at what point is its ending. Could its beginning also its end? ...thus linearly speaking am entity without a beginnin and without an end.
Man because of the limitations of his 5 physical senses has to personalize God in concepts that he could grasp or understand.
God created Man. God is not man-made. He just cannot be explained even after 'n' no. of discussions taking place here..
But when has only believing in what we can readily observe steered us wrong before? It's given us geocentrism, flat earth theory, spontaneous generation...
Your point is well taken, but you must also admit to the fact that man was given, thru evolutionary creation, the cerebral capacity to conceptualize without the benefit of first being afforded the immediate input of his five physical senses. More importantly, he was given the temerity to act on those concepts to wherever they lead him.
There are volumes of human hindsights, oopsies and incorrect information (i.e. the flat world, etc) even though thousands of vessels traveled the oceans and didn't fall off; men who came from gods and gods who came from gods and gods who came from men who were fallen gods exalted by man.
All "gods" are man-made concepts. not one is above the other, no matter the pro or con stereotype. Anti-gods and gods [ some refer also as gog an magog ] are one in the same.
What many call "God" is not "a god" because you cannot put everything that is into a little bitty box, bangle, building, bead, title, attribute, shrine, museum, tree, rock or book to love, worship, adore, mock, berate, belittle, cajole with offerings or blood, sweat and tears, as humans see fit.
I am convinced when man gives up these ego notions; searching because of those notions-using whatever methods one prefers (sensation, science, mathematics, semantics, woo-woo-la-la) -and come to terms with what a human actually is, the need for man made everything and man made anything will finally dissolve...
I totally reject your nihilistic view of Homo Sapiens. Granted that our specie have deep flaws, in no way should it be degraded and devalued as just another entity, incapable of nothing more than its biologic need to breath, eat, defecate, micturate, and procreate.
I meant to say......capable of nothing more....
Sadly, this is what man is doing. Not only to himself but fellow humans, because of these ego driven concepts (man made things). I am not degrading or diluting the human worth, quite the opposite. It is human worth that is being neglected/rejected because of man made things -from gods to silica induced dream scapes.
Man is capable of far greater things that the development, enforcement of doctrines, laws, stereotypes, deluge -no matter which corner of his brain he perceives to apply. By applying this ego-driven concepts, he has led himself off the edge of the world. A world that doesn't actually have an edge. That is the irony.
What man is quest upon, he already knows. Just because he prefers to indulge his amnesia, does not excuse the actions of that circumstance. Man has played head games with himself for far too long, applying every type of parallel imaginable. It would benefit him greatly to give up the search, toys, self-inflicted tyrannical obsession, and focus all that mechanic to getting his memory back.
You are absolutely right in saying that man's ego has and will continue to be a hindrance to his journey of finally reaching his destiny..... that of understanding the mysteries of the universe and thus unlocking the purpose of his existence. Atheism is an ego-driven belief system, and together with other similarly ego-driven belief systems like Objectivism and Reductionism may lead to man's ultimate degradation and devaluaton.
"God" is a word. It is used by different people to mean different things.
This is why you never get agreement about God.
For some it means a magical being sitting on throne or hovering in some nether-place, conjuring up fates and spinning impossible riddles for humans to wrestle with, and, sometimes giving aid or comfort to some, but never giving it to others, all in the name of love and a convoluted plan that only he knows and chose not to reveal in any clear way, the very nebulous nature of it used as proof of its clarity... somehow. Etc. A father figure, of sorts.
For others it embodies the idea of something beyond human knowledge, but also outside the realm of physics, no matter how advanced we get. It is supernatural, in the elemental definition of that word. But not so involved in humanity. More a seed planter than a father figure.
For others "God" can simply be the word used to describe "fate" or "luck" or "destiny." A concept meant to embody the thing that affects us but that is not a thing, and yet, because it affects us, becomes a thing and therefore needs a name.
For still others, "God" is a sign of intellectual weakness, a language symbol that, when invoked, serves as an alarm to warn the person who hears another using it that ridiculous beliefs based on nothing but hope, fear and, often, arrogance are at work in that person's reasoning. A danger sign, basically for "bad logic" ahead.
Thanks for the excellent tutorial on why humans have "invented" a word i.e. God....but where does he go from there? What could and would he do once he invented the word. Does he just leave it somewhere in the ether, floating uselessly? Or doeh he give the word, meaning, purspose and utility?... and thus existence.
God is a concept born in denial... People fear death and if there is a way to escape the madness of the worry, then why not create the convenience a savior for ourselve's?
Disease is a concept born in denial. People fear syphyllis, and if there is a way to escape the madness of the worry, then why not go to a convenience store to buy a condom to save ourselves.
Furthermore, to say that man conceptualizes for convenience sake is utter nonsense.
Maybe god is invented by man out of denial but may I suggest that the universe is rational. We even talk about "laws of nature." Such laws are not man made. They exist even if nothing else does. Man discovers these laws - uses them to creates things - even new atomic elements. An affirmation that the rational structure of the universe does not resemble the product of some super advanced mind, is surely some kind of "denial."
There are certain truths, as we understand them. We have an understanding of things, to an extent. As we build on such understandings, we create better machines and living conditions. We adapt by our understandings, it is our nature.
But do you not agree that the truth preexists our understanding?
When scientists, for example, create a new element, they exploit rules of nature - it's no random event. The capacity for the new element to exist in reality was there all the time, even before the scientists existed. Even before anything existed. Why should that be the case?
To me, personally, it takes an extreme form of denial to ignore the profundity of the question and assert "that god is a man made invention." Such an assertion surely needs to follow, not precede, an answer to why there is a universe and why it is well ordered according to rules that our minds can understand and even call "laws of nature."
I don't offer proof that god exists. But may I point out that the universe exhibits a rational structure. I mean energy and matter appear suddenly in a big bang. They self assemble into atoms and molecules. Stars and planets evolve spontaneously according to logical rules that we may understand.
Like the air we breathe, we take no notice of it - but it is astonishing that a logical, ordered universe even exists. We can even use the logical rules to create things, like atomic nuclei, that never existed before.
I'd like to suggest that the rational structure that orders the universe resembles the creation of a super advanced mind. It's not proof that that mind exists but it does seem like a very reasonable conclusion. It is always in the back of my mind whenever I hear an atheist explaining his position.
I won't even try to be as intellectually correct as some of you on here. I suppose if you aren't open to the miracles that happen all around us on a daily basis then not being open to the existence of God is expected. The egecentricity required to believe we have created everything is amazing though. But it is wonderful to live in a country where I can believe my way and you can believe yours.
yup it is man made concept...it is most wonderful concept and has controlled humans since years...nothing wrong in this concept but now utility of concept is close to expire
God made man in his own image and ever since man has been trying to return the favor.
When I go outside at night and look at the universe of stars moving along without my help I am relieved that someone greater than I am is responsible for keeping it all together so I can ride my bike, make up songs and write with all you cool people.
You may not believe that God became a man so that he could identify with us and ultimately pay the price for our own selfish behavior, but the One who claimed he was that one asked us to do two things, be grateful and treat others as we would like to be treated. He reworded that last one in a way I like--love your neighbor as you love yourself. If we simply followed that advice we could handle most any problems this planet will face.
Winsome, I think you are taking this to literally, for instance, if one was made in His own image, than why are we all so different? How can you love a neighbour if he is a murderer, or wife basher, or any other horrible person? Do we all love ourselves? No, a lot of people don't love themselves, why else would we all be striving so hard to be better all the time? I can like my neighbour but I don't love them, love is a pretty harsh word to throw around so loosely. And where did he become man so he could identify with us? on the Cross? I don't believe that. If you had a son nailed to the cross crying out "Father, father, why have you forsaken me?" and suffering wouldn't you save him? When you look up at the stars at night that's the evolution of the universe, not that some human person designed it or made it........I'm not so gullible as you are. Sorry.
God is just a man made fairy tale. There is NO god period. There never was, and there never will be. If you take some time to do some critical thinking you will reach the same conclusion.
Critical thinking demands the presence of postulates..that when examined through the prism of precise perception can only lead to a logical conclusion.
God exists. The only problem is His existence cannot be scientifically proven as this existence is beyond science as we know it.
So then, it would be impossible to know there's a God.
And there is no good reason to believe in one...
Believe in yourself......understand yourself.......when you really identify your existence.......that is only the GOD
"...that is only the GOD" is a tad misleading for me. I am a Christian who also believes that other religions have 'legitimate Gods.' So I suppose I'd call myself a "Multi-Cultural Christian." Something like that!
Democracy is a man made concept. Does that mean that democracy doesn't exist? There are many "concepts" which do exist.
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