If the bible is the word of God, and God is all powerful why did he choose such a bonkers way to produce it? It seems odd that an all powerful entity would choose to possess the minds of multiple men, over multiple generations. These men would record their visions or accounts, some would make the final cut, others wouldn't. These decisions would seemingly be taken by men, political leaders, warlords even. Of course these acts were all the will of God though, acting mysteriously no doubt.
Likewise his omnipotence means he could create the universe in a nano second, but he chose to take 7 days. Again, he could have made women out of nothing; he could have merely willed their existence, but instead seemingly thought "lets have some fun, use a rib".
And continuing on the point of Adam and Eve, if he didn't want them to eat the apple, why put an apple tree there? Or the talking snake for that matter? Was it all about letting humanity express free will? If that is the case then again we have to return to the issue of the bible. For if it were the case that men were expressing free will when squabbling over what made it in to the bible and what didn't, then the bible is the word of man, not the word of God.
If God was not omnipotent but only semi-competent I would still be expecting him to perform in his job to a higher standard than this.
I sometimes think why on earth is our education system so stupid. Why could they not have made it in a simpler way!
There are many ways of doing something. I cannot do something in a way that seems perfect in everyone's eye. Someone will find a fault in the way I did it. That is how it is. So I do it in a way that I think is the best.
The Lord chose a particular way to bring about the Bible. Whichever method He use to bring the Bible into existence, that method will always be questioned. He chose a method that He thought would be the best. Some people would feel that this method is good and there will certainly be some like you who would think it could have been done better.
He chose the method that seemed best according to Him to make the world and woman. Just because He is omnipotent it does not mean that He has to stick on to any particular method of doing things. He could have created woman by just willing it. But He chose to use Adam's rib instead.
Your question about Adam and Eve needs some study. When God created Adam and He created them with a free will. If free will is given then occasion to use the free will must be given otherwise providing the free will is of no use. A garden full of trees was made and given to Adam for food. Only one thing God wanted man to do. Refrain from eating from just one tree. Why did not man obey God?
Freedom to choose had been given to Adam and Eve. They could choose either to do good or evil. But the knowledge of what was good and what was evil came from God. In other words moral standards came from God. There would be a time when man would grow and become mature at which point God will allow them to eat the fruit of "tree of knowledge of good and evil" as a sign to show that they are now ready to handle morality. But until such time they were suppose to wait.
Did God know that they would eat of the tree? He did. Why did He then test them? Lets take an analogy. Let us say you have a child studying in school. Let us say her teacher calls you one day and tells you that your child does not qualify to be promoted to the next class and has to study in the same class one more year. Suppose the teacher says so without conducting an exam, would you silently agree to what the teacher? You certainly wouldn't. You would argue that it is stupid to say a child has failed without conducting an examination.
Now let was assume that on the other hand the teacher did not call you, but conduct and exam. Your child happens to fail. Would you ask the teacher why she conducted the exams when she knew that the child would not pass? Test was for Adam and eve to know that they will fail.
Man has a free will. But when he uses his free will to choose to do what God wills, that is when he is making the best use of his will. The Lord will then work through us. In this fashion God worked with those who wrote the Bible and those who compiled it and also those who later on translated it, to preserve His word. Bible id God's words.
Giving someone free will is not really free will if you point a gun at their head and say, "You have a choice, but make the wrong one and I will shoot you".
This doesn't sound like the behavior of a God at all. It seems you want to see God as a mere human when it suits your purpose, and as an omniscient deity when that suits your purpose.
In as much as we are an experiment and nothing more, God is doing His job just fine. Once He is done observing, taking notes, etc.; He will dispose of us lab rats as all lab rats are disposed of. And that will be that.
Maybe god is so inefficient because a day is a thousand years, seven days could be a nanosecond, and sundays are always 24 hours, but who's counting?
I might be able to get into a god of earth, or even a solar system, but being a god of an entire universe sounds so, um crazy, unless that god lived in some uber-universe, outside of this universe, but then he wouldn't be omnipotent, which is one of the craziest words ever made up by bible thumping yahoos.
Comrade Joe, it appears to be that you spend too much time reading The Communist Manifesto and too little time reading the Bible.
Where in Genesis did you find the word apple?
Okay, why did he put the fruit there? What was meant was evidently clear.
I would advise all read the Communist Manifesto rather than the bible, better to read a book that corresponds to reality, than one of talking snakes, boats that hold every species on the planet, walking on water and other fairy tales.
You could try firing Him.
But then, you're not the Boss. lol
Comrade Joe wants to resurrect Stalin to rule the earth. He doesn't believe in heaven.
Reminds me of an atheist who attempted to make me believe right here on HubPages that evolution is proved by maggots on garbage.
haha yeah they be stubborn in their views, don't they?!
Well, I dunno much about communism and socialism except that the traditional and workable and correct system of capitalism in my Country is under attack by those unAmerican outside views, and that isn't right.
...the poster's profile mentions Lenin and Marx.
Reckon he/she could be Obama in disguise? If we listen closely, maybe we can hear Obama whispering to Medvedev in the background....
'Comrade Joe wants to resurrect Stalin to rule the earth. He doesn't believe in heaven.'
That's funny, because jesus said that no one goes to heaven, not even king david or moses. Jesus said that 'no one has ever gone to heaven except the one that came from there: the son of man. (john 3:13.)
People die and lay in the ground until the second coming, when christ will establish a paradise on earth, then the dead will awake and only a few chosen prophets will be taken up to heaven. (luke 13:28)
But the point is: nobody goes to heaven, ever.
That's funny, because what you said, in response to what I said, is the most intellectually dishonest post I have seen lately in these forums.
You took two verses from two different books of the Bible entirely out of context and drew a conclusion.
Kudos to you.
Or, if he have free will and God cannot coerce anyone into doing anything, there was no guarantee that the Bible would ever be written. God had to rely on human beings to actually "experience him", believe it was a genuine experience, and also to write down his thoughts that he somehow communicated with them in a method that is never quite laid out (except for the 10 commandments).
What if human beings had decided against writing the Bible? Would we all be damned forever? If it was ultimately part of a divine plane that HAD to come to pass, then free will is not real. God had a plan that would occur despite what any petty human did.
Maybe the Calvinists are right. A good Christian should believe in predestination!
God is never insufficient at his job. He does things according to his will and purpose for our lives. Sometimes he let things happen to teach us something that will help us grow as a person. The devil send trials and tribulations to destroy us, but through Christ it makes us strong. Surrender to God and allow his will to be done. For all god want is yes.
@ts whose product is bible?...some mark wrote first gosphel...who was mark?...even bible experts dont know much about him...there where more than 20 such gosphels...4 got selected and became gods word according to believer of that book...fortunately we have one 1 in 3 person in world which believes that and hardly 10% of them which literally believe that but unfortunately others believe is some other books which are also claimed to be word of god...now all books would loose test of time sooner or later...value of those books would still remain in terms of vision of authors about how world should be...these books do contain many things worth preserving but this god's word is myth...
Certainly upon examination any scriptures such as the Bible can be seen as an elementary and irrational attempt at being cobbled together by humans as a failed attempt to explain the world without a shred of evidence.
The principle of God is that a messenger is always sent from the species of his addressees, so that he may be a practical example for them, which they may easily follow. Since human beings live on earth, a messenger is sent from the humans. Had angels been living on earth, an angel would have been sent.
Also wanted to add that 50,000 years on earth is equal to a day in God's time... so a nano-second in Gods time would be close to 6-7 days in our time... right?
If that is true, then why did he change his mind so quickly. He gave moses commandments to kill non believers and the he gave jesus commandments to turn the other cheek.
He changed his mind in what, a couple of "god minutes"?
true its a couple of minutes in God's time but about 1000 years had passed in this world ... and the messengers were told what to do according to their current situation.
God did not change his mind ... he was guiding the prophets... for example: a person telling another person the way to a certain bus stop... "first go left ... then turn right ..." similarly moses was told to kill and Jesus not to kill.
it's not changing minds ... it was the path forward at that particular time... depending on the amount of resistance the religion faced.
How the hell can it be ok to kill someone because it is a different time in history? Give me a break. Are you justifying killing someone that isnt a believer just because it was a long time ago?
It is either right or wrong. Time does not change anything. How can you possibly claim that it is ok to kill a non believer in ANY circumstance?
It is right when your religion is under threat. i.e you are being attacked because of the religion you follow.
It is absolutely wrong when your religion is not under threat.
Go and kill someone who is threatening your religion and see if you go to jail.
That should be a pretty good lesson in right and wrong for you.
People who think like you are a danger to society and should be under lock and key.
I'm guessing he means physically attacked. As in self-defense. Which is kind of consistent with the Old Testament. Seems like the Isrealites were in an almost constant state of being conquered or liberated from the moment they arrived at the Promised Land on.
exactly ... when physically attacked. thanks Eric for filling in the blanks.
@hippy - Sorry i assumed that you knew i was talking about physically attacking and therefore did not express myself well enough.
Ah I see that is what you mean.
So if someone punches you in the face you think it is ok to murder them?
Still not right.
you still don't get it. its not about a petty fight in the back of a street..
Let me help you;
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
What was it about then? I think I understand perfectly well. YOU dont like what the bible says so you are making up whatever you like to try and justify it.
we are going in circles here.
as far as i can understand you are quoting text from the Bible to me; a book i have not read. Although I highly respect the Bible, I follow the Quran.
Also - If this text is from the Bible ... then it answers your first Question. "why does God keep changing his mind?"
Clearly HE does not change his mind.
What do you mean he does NOT change his mind? The old testament he tells you to kill non believers, the new testament he tells you not to fight at all, and THEN the koran comes along and tells you to kill non beleivers AGAIN.
So let me get this right, god gives a rule, changes his mind within a minute and then a few seconds later changes his mind AGAIN.
How is it right in ANY circumstance to kill a non believer?
Why is it that people walk, run and argue right up to the fence and not look over the fence.
Prophesy tells us that this will happen. We see that it has happened and YET ... we still want to forcast these prophesied events out into the future.
and then disrespect these prophesy because scriptures say that they should have already happened.
It is called the blind leading the blind.
Those who refuse to see are leading those that want to see.
I think Jesus said something like that once upon a time.
You are quoting the law given to the Jews. Something spectacular has happened since then. God has revealed himself to all. My people were never in bondage in Egypt. We are not to punish anyone who tries to entice us away from God. Just say no thanks and move on. It has been revealed that judgement awaits, but it is not ours to dole out.
similar concept in the Quran,
Say: O disbelievers! (1) I worship not that which ye worship; (2) Nor worship ye that which I worship. (3) And I shall not worship that which ye worship. (4) Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5) Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)
So well done on justifying every act of terror by Al-Qaeda - good job.
Comrade Joe, it is a very common mistake for many atheists to believe that God chose a bonkers way to produce the Bible.
It is a very common mistake for many theists to place belief in something that is unfounded and also to assert it without evidence.
Jesus was a hippy, like I told an atheist over on the "The Bible is the TRUTH but not like you think" thread who began a post with, "It is a very common mistake for many Christians to believe . . ." that it would be helpful if you atheists would begin your posts with: "I am an atheist and this is my OPINION."
So you dont think it is a mistake to assert something as fact when you cant back up your claim?
Yes, I do think it is a mistake for atheists to assert something as fact when they can't back up their claim.
And for Christ's sake, quit writing dont and cant and such. Find a '''''''''''' somewhere. You might look in the lake of fire.
So you think it is a mistake when atheists do it but not theists? I find it rather odd that you specify atheists and not just all people. Clearly that indicates you dont see it as a problem when theists do it.
As for punctuation, I'm sure you understand what I am saying. There's no need to be pedantic and detract from the discussion at hand.
Why is it not a mistake when theists assert things they cannot back up with evidence?
If you accept that God is who He says He is then you also accept that He's probably powerful enough to counteract human error as far as His holy scriptures go. So your belief in the accuracy of the scriptures is directly related to whether you believe in God at all.
And the ants wonder why the stupid hornets don't build anthills. The hornets wonder why the ants don't make hives.
To get back to Comrade Joe's train of thought, or lack thereof . . .
God did it His way.
In fact, God divinely inspired Frank Sinatra on "I Did It My Way" but then Sammy Davis Jr (his girlfriend was Linda Lovelace you know) was satanically inspired to influence Frank to change some of the words.
The original words were (this is God singing):
And now, the end is near
And so, you face the final curtain
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
You've lived a life that's full of lies
But then, an atheist has no ears to hear
And as you know every one of you men dies
You're going to wind up in the lake of fire I fear
I find some of the responses to be found here rather bizarre. Firstly, the arrogance of Christians is evident with regards to the assumption that anyone who challenges the bible is an atheist. It is quite reasonable for agnostics, people of other faiths or even an inquiring Christian in search of truth to question the bible.
It is secondly bizarre that when someone highlights the illogical nature of your beliefs, to then defend said belief with illogical statements. To simply assert somethings truth in the face of rational inquiry is a clear sign of dogmatic irrationality.
Are you an atheist?
Was your hero Stalin an atheist? As I recall he he promoted Lenin's position that religion was the opium of the people that had to be obliterated at all costs in order to develop the ideal communist society.
Stalin did a great many things to develop the ideal communist society... placing himself as a cult of personality to be worshiped and feared was one of them.
Stalin is not relevant to this discussion, though I would happily educate on the matter of Stalin on an appropriate platform.
Well sure Stalin is relevant to this discussion. Stalin was an atheist. You are an atheist. Stalin is your hero. You started a thread about Stalin today. You started this thread bashing God. You are an atheist. Stalin is an atheist.
Do I need to connect the dots for you?
I'd actually classify myself as agnostic. I can admire Stalin's gargantuan contributions to the working class without sharing every identical belief with him.
I don't believe the existence of a creator can be proved either way, but I do believe that it is evident that the Christian conception of God as advanced by the Bible is evidently a fairy tale.
The penalty of death was given to Adam 'For in the day you eat of you will die" but Adam lived to be 936 years as the Bible states. But God word also says a day is "as a thousand years unto the Lord". Obviously we would not be here if God used an earth day of 24 hours for Adam's disobedience. However, Adam did not live past a thousands years (within God's day) and Adam probably didn't even know how to count the years. So who did count them? Was it Moses who came on the scene 1400 years later since He is credited with writing the book of Genesis? Guess who told Moses.
God's grace gave Adam 936 years of life and his grace continues to give us life but much shorter. I cannot remember where the verse is (maybe Psalms or Proverbs) but it states..." man shall live 70 years and eighty if he is strong". This is basically true for man since then and even today. God leaves the door open for a few that might go beyond that but our science haven't been able to improve very much on it, try as we may.
God is quite efficient as He demonstrate His perfect work in Christ meeting God perfect law of "sinlessness". For it's own this basis that Christ walk out of His tomb hence resurrection. Perhaps God has exposed Man's inherent defect and recorded thru the Apostles how fallen we are as a creation proven at the Cross against someone who did absolutely nothing wrong but love. The same poison on Calvary's Hill is in every tribe on the earth...and every nation and yet God's grace continues.
God is so efficient that He has already recorded the events concerning Christ return just like the Bible has declared concerning the rebirth of Israel. One is the sign of the other! So watch the venom flow and the Word fulfill itself with utter clarity as "lawlessness' mounts and unbelief in a God puts Him to the test. Then will grace come to it's end. God's word already has stated that to some the cross is but foolishness but to those who believe it is salvation. In short, this post don't surprise God after all neither did the events at the cross.
I didn't realize there were still people out there who believe Moses wrote the book of Genesis. Historians and Theologians accept the book to have four sources, and none of those were Moses.
A wise man does not attempt to explain wisdom to a fool.
HHmmmm.....Now we know why the inefficiency of Man. It amazes me how we can look back over 4,000 years and rewrite what was already written and survived 3,900 years. The point is who told whoever? The Bible says Moses was called to write it down. I'll take what has survived Time itself. I am not impress with there school of thought. I like the fact the God said Abraham would be the father of many nations who believe by faith. How true today the Christian institution is comprised of many people of many cultures and races....nations and tribes. That's a truth that God has fulfilled to Abraham. How impossible it was to see when spoken to Abraham but it has been done through Christ. Only God knew it and it is He who performed it despite unbelief. Israel is God timepiece and the clock is ticking and the time is short. Believe your school of thought...I believe in the power of faith. It has shown me the clumsiness of men and their weak and self centered ideals that feed their desires. God's Word has been quite efficient in revealing that. We may have many inventions in this modern age but men still has a wicked and desperate heart and with nuclear weapons abounding all around us......well you get the idea.
We human of finite understanding the infinite wisdom of God. Questions such as why does he does this things and that cannot negate the omnipotence of God.
You are Making God seem like an actual three dimensional character, Trying to understand God in a Third dimensional way is quite a difficult concept to wrap your mind around. Also you are quoting the bible literally.. The bible ( especially the Old testimony)was written in metaphors and should not be taken word for word..
And to you question why is God so inefficient..
here is something to think about
The Question, ' Where was God?"
The answer," Where was man? "
There is a tale from the "Acorn Eaters" of California. It is of a fly sitting on a great Sequoia, the largest, oldest and wisest of all trees. The fly decided that the tree was not alive. He had been there almost all of his life and had never seen the tree move at all.
jesus said that no one goes to heaven, not even king david or moses. Jesus said that 'no one has ever gone to heaven except the one that came from there: the son of man. (john 3:13.)
= - = -
Lets’ not make any assumptions, and examine what is actually written.
No one has yet entered into heaven that hasn't come out of heaven.
We do not know who all have come out of heaven, nor of these who have returned to heaven.
Now lets look at the last nine words of this verse ..."even the son of man which in is heaven".
I don't want to make any assumptions but this seems to me to be talking in the third person. Even though this is written in "RED" this doesn't sound like the way Jesus would express himself in this instance, unless I am missing something?
People die and lay in the ground until the second coming, when christ will establish a paradise on earth, then the dead will awake and only a few chosen prophets will be taken up to heaven. (luke 13:28)
But the point is: nobody goes to heaven, ever.
= - - =
Again we are making assumptions as to what this verse is saying. Adding into the meaning something that is not written.
No place in scripture does it say that the second coming or Rapture and the first resurrection are the same event or that they happen anything near to the same time.
There are too many assumptions such as these being made when scriptures were translated and are still being interpreted.
It is these interpretations made by others which influence how we ourselves attempt to interpret them.
When we start off with just one wrong assumption we loose focus on the intended target. Add a few more wrong assumptions and we have lost sight of it all together.
I have been studying this phenomenon for over a dozen years, and was overwhelmed as to how greatly this has distorted our understanding of the written word.
For the past 1640 years, we in the church have added many wrong assumptions which some of us accept some of them and reject others and some of us do not.
It should be no surprise that there are SOooo many different faiths within the Christian organization.
For this reason, the path certainly is wide, while the gate is still narrow.
Even though we have attempted to interpreted this message as much as possible, "IT" remains the same.
So then against all odds, you know what the verses mean and others don't.
That's the problem with people like you.
By the way, thanks for the lecture, its always funny to see how far people will go to sound smart.
The bible is quoted: no one has ever gone to heaven except the one that came from there: the son of man. (john 3:13.)
'Except THE ONE THAT CAME FROM THERE , THE SON OF MAN'.
Not very ambiguous at all, your spin is crap.
Did I say that I knew what the verses are saying? NO I said that there are oodles and gobs of assumptions that people have been making that simply are not contained within the verses as written.
This may be one of the problems that "people like me" have. I assure you that there are more than this problem alone.
And by the way, I see that you have set yourself apart.
Good for you Cause you wouldn't want to be like people like me.
Also, when I read Jack and Jill went up the hill, I do not see it saying that while they were there, they filled the well up with rocks.
But that is what people like me do.
OOps I might have been a little testy there? sorry.
It was that "people like you" part that slipped under my skin a little.
Whatever the intent, it probably wasn't nice.
That does for me kinda what the "N" word does for some people. OR
You know ... like ... Belss her "tiny" little heart, she is one of those people don't Ya know!
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