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What happened to an atheist to make him/her convert to Christianity?

  1. Claire Evans profile image91
    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago

    It's easy to deconvert to atheism because they are disappointed, hurt or because they have lost their faith due to God making sense.  It's harder to suddenly make a rational atheists convert to Christianity, which is faith-based.  How does it happen?

    1. 0
      jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      When they lose their mental balance, when they become like you, they'll be Christians!

      1. By His Way profile image61
        By His Wayposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Awww...that's not nice!  lol

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          jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I know, but she herself said she is undergoing treatment(even ECT) for mental illness.

          1. By His Way profile image61
            By His Wayposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Oh....well... we all have issues.

        2. Claire Evans profile image91
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Truth is, for someone who has an alleged high IQ, Jomine sure is ignorant.  A quick google check on depression will show even the most simple person that depression doesn't mean psychosis.  When people hear "mental illness", they assume someone is in a strait jacket.  It's kind of like those people in the Middle Ages who believed people with epilepsy were possessed by demons, confined to their own ignorance.  Unfortunately, ignorance causes a lot of harm.

          1. By His Way profile image61
            By His Wayposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I'm all about not giving reaction. smile  Don't feed into this (in general). None of us are defined by others. Remember this. smile ((hugs))

          2. 0
            jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Truth is I don't have to google, I've standard psychiatry textbooks.
            Depression can cause delusion. Since you like to "google", google Depressive Psychosis and its treatment.
            But in your case, I don't even have to know you have depression, your posts show you have delusion.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Don't forget paranoia.

              1. 0
                jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Yup, paranoid delusion.

              2. Claire Evans profile image91
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I swear this guy Jomine is obsessed with me.  He can't leave me alone!

                There is major depression and there is psychotic major depression.  They are not one and the same.

                I don't have to toss and turn at night wondering if I'm psychotic.  I'm sure my psychiatrist would have told me or my family by now if I suffer from psychosis.

                People like Jomine would love to see me as psychotic.  It means they can feel secure in the belief that whatever I say is nonsense.

                1. 0
                  jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't leave you alone because I don't leave Nonsense alone, nothing personal. Others just post foolish arguments but you fill the forums with your paranoia.
                  Regarding your psychiatrist, either he is too lazy to elicit your paranoid Delusions or he knows it but didn't tell you for fear of aggravating your condition or he might be a really wise guy who knew there is no point in treating, for the disease is incurable.

      2. Brent Hale profile image72
        Brent Haleposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Do mentally-balanced people go out of their way to attack someone simply because that someone posed a question that they do not like?

        1. Dallas Matier profile image86
          Dallas Matierposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Are you attacking athiests or religious people with this comment? It can be hard to tell sometimes.

          1. Brent Hale profile image72
            Brent Haleposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Hey Dallas, the question is intended for jomine, in regards to his response to Claire's original post.

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            Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I suspect the former. Jomine was attacking -- insulting? -- Christians, and Hale was attacking(?) Jomine's attack. However, it is possible that Hale was just asking a rhetorical question.

            1. Brent Hale profile image72
              Brent Haleposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I meant no disrespect to anyone's personal beliefs. I meant to point out jomine's hypocrisy in his cowardly personal attack on Claire.

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                jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Deleted

                1. Brent Hale profile image72
                  Brent Haleposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  It is COWARDLY to respond to a completely neutral question with a smug comment aimed to attack the person who asked the question. It is an even greater act of COWARDICE to justify your attack with the fact that the person you are attacking has addressed the issue in which you are attacking.

                  It is HYPOCRITICAL to act the way you have and then imply that SOMEONE ELSE is the mentally-unstable one.

                  1. 0
                    jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    "Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient mental robustness and courage in the face of a challenge." So I just faced the question and answered that  it need "unsound mind" to convert to religious.

                    I'm not implying I'm stating that she is ill.

                  2. 0
                    Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Civility has no penalty and no cost, which is why I'm uncertain why more people don't practice it.

                    Some of the respondents here -- some of the respondents on virtually every forum on the Internet -- apparently have no idea how poorly they represent themselves. Many do have an idea, but they don't care. They further don't care that every time they open their mouth, or every time they click "submit," they are, deliberately or not, acting as a spokesperson for their own demographic. Maybe some of them are double agents, striving to make their actual opponents look bad.

                    I'm not going to name names, but you know who are are.

              2. 0
                jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Hypocrisy?
                Cowardly?
                Do you understand the words or are you just using it to look intelligent?

        2. 0
          jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          It is just a fact. No atheist 'convert' to be a 'religious person' by thinking. They do it out of fear or 'experience'(Hope and fear), which means they were never atheists but just god haters or just "believers"(who favor argument from authority).
          Claire is special case, is a patient, who'll never get any sympathy from me.
          PS. Doesn't mean I agree with atheists, nor disagree with the question. If the question was asked by any normal person, I would have answered 'normally', the above would be my answer.

    2. pisean282311 profile image57
      pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      @claire it would be harder to make any rationlist thinker believe in myths...i dont think any thinking christians believes bible literally...he/she might be believing in essence but not word by word...

      1. Claire Evans profile image91
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        But this still does not answer my question.  Why suddenly believe the Holy Spirit exists?

        1. pisean282311 profile image57
          pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @claire didnt get u....who believes in holy spirit other than die hard fans of religion?

          1. Claire Evans profile image91
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            But how do atheists go from atheism to die-hard religion fans?

            1. pisean282311 profile image57
              pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              @claire ok now i get it...how do i know?...atheist is not name of individual...it is like why christians are leaving Christianity in europe?...now christian too is not name of one individual...guess every one would have their own reason for leaving or taking anything...

              1. Claire Evans profile image91
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                In other words, you don't know the answer to my question.

                1. pisean282311 profile image57
                  pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  @claire yes i dont...any answer which i give u would be mere speculation...

                  1. Paul Wingert profile image80
                    Paul Wingertposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    An athiest that turns to religion is pretty rare. My guess as of why that would happen, is the atheist suddenly becomes a mentally lazy individual who suddenly can't think of themself.

    3. aguasilver profile image89
      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      For me it was I guess growing up and realising one day that I was not convinced that there was nothing after death. I would have been about 35 then I guess.

      Proving there is nothing is harder than disbelieving because nobody has presented 'evidence' that there is something.

      The next logical step was to start trying to prove that there was nothing after death to my own satisfaction, to at least solve that doubt.

      That involved studying what religions stated about the matter, which led to some 'spiritual' experiences, which caused me to think that even if there was nothing after death, there was definitely something unseen but proactive that existed around me, and mainly it was friendly and made me feel good.

      This also started a period of involvement with paganism and witchcraft, rune stones and tarot cards, and getting deeper and deeper into dark areas, and loving every minute of it, until I realised I was attracting pretty heavy dark forces to me.

      I think my 40th birthday was the turning point, it's when I realised that my life was NOT what I had wanted or planned, it was what had happened to me, whilst making other plans (to paraphrase Lennon).

      Finding faith was not a conversion, it ended up being a defection to escape the forces that I had invoked and were 'influencing' me.

      Crossing over was a battle, as the former spiritual forces I had engaged attempted to dissuade me, and then tried to get me to kill myself.

      One day, alone in my house as my wife had taken the baby to a friends as she was scared of what was happening, the big battle took place between our enemy and Christ.

      I declared that whoever won was my owner for life, and as both told me they were the stronger force, I was in the position of knowing that no matter what, I no longer owned my soul. The only question was which spiritual entity would possess my rights and who I would serve.

      Christ definitively won the fight, and I have served Him since, hence I was a defector, not a convert, and came from atheism for the simple reason that I could not 100% disbelieve what I disbelieved, and I suspected that what existed may be something that I needed to consider.

      Truth be known I suspect that most atheists are in the same condition, which is why they protest so much against any believers message or scriptural correction.

      They also suspect that what they disbelieve is not totally unbelievable, which causes them to shout ever louder in the hope that we may stop reminding them of their doubts and fears.

      Why else would someone who denies God exists be afraid of a Hell they also deny exists?

      Illogical.

      1. pisean282311 profile image57
        pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @agua got that...though i dont believe in god but i get ur point and your share did put your point across very well...

        1. aguasilver profile image89
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks, I understand that, after all I was in total disbelief until I was 35 years old, then spent 7 years going through spiritual things, before coming to faith at 42 years of age, so I never expect that anyone can truly say they are 100% secure in their beliefs and will never revise them.

          However after nearly 20 years in faith, I am still challenging my faith daily (and that is possibly what 'pick up your cross daily' refers to.) and proving it more and more.

          Would I now stop being a believer?

          I seriously doubt it, I find more evidence for faith as I live this life, and see more intervention of God as I trust Him more, but then that is me, we are all different.

          I don't think God expects us to accept what is said in the scriptures, if He had, He would have made it impossible to NOT believe, I think it is like all examinations; designed to test whether you have truly studied the subject and understood the questions correctly, and having done that answered the test questions (how you live) accurately.

          I was always hopeless at examinations! smile

          John

      2. Claire Evans profile image91
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for your story! I don't think there is any atheist out there that would reject Jesus after seeing His power of evil like you did. 

        Here's a testimony of a former atheist who had a NDE and converted to Christianity after the ordeal was over. 

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3adbayvKWA

        It is logical to think it is not probable that there is nothing after death.   Scientists now know consciousness is separate from the body.  It is not in responsible to brain waves but vice versa.

        Atheists can deny this all they are like but they are on these forums because they want to be convinced God doesn't exist because the idea of hell does scare them.  By belittling Christians, they believe it makes them more right.

        Sad really.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Maybe you should be adding links to the authority scientific papers produced that prove this instead of YT videos?

          Odd this proof of life after death you have was not widely reported.

          That is logical thinking? Gosh - I got it all mixed up. I am not scared of hell. Trust me - if you are correct in what comes after death - I welcome it.

          No wonder your religion causes so many fights. sad

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            No nde experiences?

            Why, there are hundreds of thousands of testimonies of out of body experiences and visions of things that are not of this world.

            Liars for Satan. (TM)

            smile

            1. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Anyone can misinterpret a dream, especially Christians when they have dreams related to their beliefs, people can tell stories, lie, hallucinate....  this is why evidence is so important...  take the chupacabra, how many people have claimed to see this creature?  how old do you think this story is?  some people claim it's been around for centuries....  however, the very first mention of this creature was in 1995 in Puerto Rico, after this incident and mention by a comedian who coined the term, many people cliamed sightings all over the World, especially in Latin America where the story originated.  However, the woman who first reported the sighting described a creature resembling one from a movie, one that she had seen just hours earlier....  the Movie? Species.
              Now, if this lady reports this fictional creature as real even though it was purely from her imagination based on a movie she just viewed and many people after words claimed to have seen the same things and even start claiming animals that they have never seen before as being this creature, how credible is eye witness testimony of any kind?

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                New approach mabye?

                Chasing your tail here.

                Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit - Denial......

                smile

                1. artblack01 profile image81
                  artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Ha ha ha, you can believe whatever you like, but it only makes you look like more of a moronic asshole.

        2. twosheds1 profile image61
          twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          "Scientists now know..." Uh, which scientists? The ones I work with say nothing of the sort. Where consciousness resides in the brain is widely understood.The phenomena reported by those who experience NDE's are fairly well understood, but even still, how would one know that one was having a "religious" experience and not a hallucination? Where are the YT videos of people who were raised Hindu, with no exposure to Christianity who had NDE's, saw Jesus and converted? These experiences always follow what people have been brought up to believe.

          1. Claire Evans profile image91
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            While it is true that it hasn't been scientifically proven consciousness is separate from the brain, there is evidence, though.  It cannot be explained why people born blind can see in NDEs. 

            More info:

            http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

            http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html#a3

            1. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              "While it is true that it hasn't been scientifically proven consciousness is separate from the brain, there is evidence, though." 

              Consciousness has scientifically been proven to not be separate from the brain actually, if you damage the brain you damage a persons consciousness, or other such functions of his entire mental and mechanical abilities.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Ridiculous...

                If you damage a car, you hinder the persons ability to drive it. Doesn't mean the person is damaged....

                How much obvious do I need to point out?

                1. artblack01 profile image81
                  artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  There is no evidence that the brain is not the driver, or that there is a spiritual presence to this body, the body is the driver.  How stupid are you that you can't prove this soul if it exists as being a separate part of the body....  you can't prove that something is then you might as well believe any silly notions that get told to you, like fairies and such....  obvious?  Prove the soul, that would make it obvious....  what if the car is damaged?  What if the driver is damaged?  Or is the Driver indestructible??? 
                  Sounds like you are in some sort of lame fantasy world....  I'm done with your inane stupid unprovable ideas that you think are so obvious.

                  1. aguasilver profile image89
                    aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    "... just like it's ridiculous to wash your hands in a childbirth ward, silly notion, no evidence that it does anything, this damn fella, calls himself a doctor and want to change the whole medical professions scientific knowledge because he BELIEVES that washing hands would save lives.... shouldn't be allowed to practice, unscientific fool"

                    Yes I can hear your counterparts shouting this just as loudly, and just as ignorantly, because THEY were ignorant of bacteria (which therefore obviously could not exist, as THEY could not prove it evidentially)

                    Yeah, good case, you ONLY believe in what has (to date) been measured by scientists, anybody else who actually has experiences of things you cannot see must be wrong.

                    Perfectly logical.

                    PS. Yes the driver is indestructible, all that remains to be determined is which 'vehicle' they drive after they trash the one God gave them.

            2. kerryg profile image88
              kerrygposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I like how you accept unproven science as true when it fits into your belief system and reject it when it doesn't. That is some truly impressive compartmentalization.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image80
                A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Unfortunately many people do that to one degree or another.

              2. Claire Evans profile image91
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Well, atheists assume God doesn't exist even though science hasn't disproved Him.  I can't accept that all anecdotes from people who have had NDEs are false.  If scientists and doctors seriously consider consciousness being separate from the brain then I think it is worth believing in.  If I didn't know God then I would be on the fence on this issue.

        3. artblack01 profile image81
          artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Funny, I was hit by a car, woke up in a hospital, was told that my heart stopped several times and they almost gave up.
          Well, it wasn't funny at the time, but the expectations for me turning to God were, for me at least, totally hilarious.

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Wonder how many other things you haven't experienced others have.

            smile

            1. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Yeah I wonder what thing a schizophrenic experiences that I will never experience... Hmmm, moving on.

            2. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The thing is people can experience all sorts of things, much of which don't interest me.  If something interests me then I go out of my way to try and experience them.  However I am also not delusional, I studied many claims in my life to find out if there were any truths to them.  From Psychic abilities to telekinetic powers to UFOs, Ghosts, etc....  There was always some way I could convincingly recreate these with everyday science or show that it was a misunderstanding or hoax.
              Sorry to tell you, people lie, and I am not one to tell the lie to because I can always tell when someone is lying.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Oh BOY!

                That last line is a KEEPER!!!

                lol lol lol

                1. artblack01 profile image81
                  artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Take it to the bank and save it, you'll need it when reality vanishes.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh my goodness.. lol

                    Keep going..

                    PLEASEEE.. lol

                    You are KILLING me here... lololol

        4. artblack01 profile image81
          artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Actually that isn't the case, but you can continue to believe that if you like.

          1. aguasilver profile image89
            aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            methinks thou protesteth too much sir.

            1. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Probably, but fascist little Christians tend to make me that way.

    4. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
      Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      If the atheist is gullible and just hasnt heard of any gods, then just tell them what to believe. In my experience, if you use god to explain something to them that they dont understand (usually emotions) then they will bite. If they are not gullible like me and want to see verifiable evidence, then you will have to verifiably demonstrate that your god exists.

      1. Claire Evans profile image91
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Can you tell me what happened when God was used to explain something they didn't understand in your experience?

      2. A Thousand Words profile image80
        A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, dogmatic Atheists and dogmatic Christians aren't all that different. Just take Big Bang theory, "God doesn't exist," and whatever else that they believe without much understanding in the matter, and replace it with Creation and God, and BOOM. Atheist->Christian. Like magic.

        On a serious note, Atheists who reason in the same manner as the devoutly religious in general tend to be more apt to lean towards a religion if it strikes a certain chord in them. Especially people who are only Atheists because everyone else around them is, too. Far too many people are uneducated about religion, the psychology behind many of them, etc. Because of that, when they find out something they believed about a religion to be wrong, and are introduced to ideas that they've never really encountered before, they are filled with curiosity, and often more open to the "nicer" side of religion. People with extremist (either this or that, no in between) tendencies are also more likely to convert. I know many Christians, and was that way myself who have a black and white, no gray area attitude.

        (You know what happens when a girl grows up in a town with a bunch of men who all act, look, dress the same, and she feels trapped, but then this foreigner comes out of nowhere who is completely different, he stirs up an interest and curiosity in her, and they "fall in love." She thinks the man is super special, and becomes blind to the fact that when she experience more of the world, there are in fact other guys similar to him, and that he isn't all that special, but they're "in love," and she's convinced that he's one of a kind and the one for her, and there's no other guy like him, and even if he has some REALLY bad tendencies, including telling her that she's nothing without him, but she'll stick up for him no matter what, because she sees him with rose-colored glasses and believes she has no other options.)

        It is highly unlikely that a more level headed, educated (near objectively about religions in general and the psychological aspect of it) Atheist would so easily be converted to an idea that really works outside of his or her realm of thinking. Not saying that it's a "higher" level of thinking, per se, just a very, very different one.

        (In my example, a girl, who, though she grew up with a bunch of bland men, would see the new comer and not think him to be anything special, having learned already about how guys like him exist, and while indeed they are different, different doesn't equal special, and would thusly not be whisked aware by his "something new"-ish charm.)

        1. A Thousand Words profile image80
          A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I'm not saying this is always the case, for those of you who'll want to throw a tantrum. Just usually.

          Also notice when I speak of one being uneducated, I mostly mean, which is why I said, not being educated properly about the religion, it's real beliefs, and the psychological aspects, not that the people themselves aren't intelligent in other fields. ALthough, this is also a factor, but there are intelligent Atheists who have converted to Christianity, so understand that is not what I'm saying.

        2. Claire Evans profile image91
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You are dead right about this! lol



          Excellent answer.  I think many people convert to Christianity because of the idea of heaven and rewards.  I wonder how many would still be Christian if you had to tell them life is really hard as a Christian because of the onslaught of the devil.



          I don't think I've ever come across an atheist who was born one  Mostly they do not feel the need to continuously slam religion.  I think many atheists block any chance of conversion by a mental block in their heads.  They have been disillusioned by Christianity and have no desire to go back and so they will filter out the positive and concentrate on the negative and spread that around hoping others will abandon their faith, too.

          Thanks!

          1. artblack01 profile image81
            artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I don't think that's true at all. For me as an atheist my reason for becoming one is purely the need to believe in reality vs fantasy. People can believe what they want doesn't make them good or bad, anyone of any belief can be really evil. For myself, I would rather believe what is true and real and I am happy with my belief. I am not scared for empty religious threats of damnation and not tempted by empty religious promises of "salvation".
            With all that I am aware of I can't believe anyone would feel the need to believe in such fantasies.

        3. twosheds1 profile image61
          twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Why does there have to be any "understanding in the matter?" Do I have to have special knowledge of fairies to assert that they don't exist? Atheism is to religion as NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.

          1. A Thousand Words profile image80
            A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            ... What are you talking about?

      3. 0
        Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        The few atheist-to-Christian converts who I've known were atheists for emotional rather than intellectual reasons, so the conversion was easy.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image80
          A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Always concise.

        2. Claire Evans profile image91
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Interestingly enough, the most "rational" and die-hard atheist Richard Dawkins is now an agnostic.  He cannot be sure a God doesn't exist.  In fact, he thinks we might be genetically engineered by aliens. 

          http://www.theoligarch.com/richard-dawkins-aliens.htm

          1. 0
            Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Of course, Dawkins is an agnostic. Most atheists are, in precisely the same way that Dawkin's defines it in "The God Delusion: "I am agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden."

            Dawkins entertains the possibility that we were genetically engineered by aliens. So what? He also entertains the possibility of fairies at the bottom of the garden.

            1. Claire Evans profile image91
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Come on, now.  He only recently admitted to their being a possibility God exists.  He was always known as an atheist.  What we was trying to say that he is open-minded to the possibility that God exists like he entertains the idea that fairies exist at the bottom of the garden.  He was being sarcastic.

              A woman once asked him, "Has it ever occurred to you that you may be wrong?" He responded, "Oh, yes, but I teapot could also be orbiting the earth."

              Clear sarcasm.

              This is what he wrote in, "The God Delusion":

              Dawkins in the “God Delusion” is fond of quoting fellow atheist Bertrand Russell’s story of the celestial teapot.  Here is Dawkins telling the story, “If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving around the sun in a elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by out most powerful telescopes.  But if I were to go on and say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it.  I should rightly be thought of talking nonsense.  If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”

              Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion (Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 2006) p. 52

          2. A Troubled Man profile image59
            A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Unlike believers who are steadfast in their absolute beliefs, Dawkins entertains a whole lot of ideas and offers anyone with a claim to explain themselves and provide the evidence for their explanations. It's called having an open mind.

            1. 0
              AKA Winstonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Or, if you prefer, the scientific method.

            2. Claire Evans profile image91
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I think Dawkins would be chuffed if he knew you stood up for him! I entertain a lot of ideas.  You could say those who are close-minded are those who say God is imaginary.  You're not really open-minded when it comes to Jesus being the son of God.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image80
                A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Are you open minded to the possibility, Claire, that Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, and all of those gods exist(ed)? What about the Norse Gods? The Hindu Brahman(all of the other deities are manifestations of Brahman, quite similarly to the Christian idea of Trinity and thus hinduism is falsely called a polytheistic religion)? If no, why? Your answer may surely sound much like why many people in these forums don't believe in Jesus and the like... Though it may be "different" to you.

                1. Claire Evans profile image91
                  Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  To compare those gods with Jesus is erroneous.  There are extra-biblical sources that attest to Jesus' existence.  If people thought the gods you mentioned above existed, I'd be interested to hear their case.  I have also never come across someone who claims they have a relationship with Zeus, for example.

                  1. janesix profile image59
                    janesixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    14 percent of the human population believes in Brahman

                    Hinduism is also thousands of years older than christianity

                    Interesting how your jesus is so similar to krishna, mithras, osiris and so on....

                    1. Claire Evans profile image91
                      Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Not this tripe again!!

              2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                No, I'm not standing up for him but instead making a point that although he entertains a lot of ideas, he doesn't accept the ones that have no evidence.



                Ridiculous. There is no evidence for God or Jesus.

                1. Claire Evans profile image91
                  Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  If you say so!

                  1. aguasilver profile image89
                    aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    What else can a rebel say?

                    The guy who shot 77 people (Anders Breivik) told the court that he did not recognise their authority to try him.

                    OK that's his opinion, and he is entitled to hold it, but no matter what he thinks, he is on trial for his crimes, and that's a fact that cannot be disputed.

                    Not recognising authority changes not a thing.

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      But you have no authority. Your Super Being does not exist.

                      See how that is not the same thing at all?

          3. artblack01 profile image81
            artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I love how people lie and quote mine and take things completely out of context and that people are too lazy too confirm whether this silliness is true or not.

            1. Claire Evans profile image91
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              How did I take it out of context?

              1. artblack01 profile image81
                artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Not you specifically, the authors of the article. I have seen many interviews and usually when these guys talk of aliens or repentance it's usually some sort of joke or what if statement that they totally dismiss. Chris hitchens had cancer and he said the only way he would repent to any sort of god is if we're not in his right mind/ demented in some way, someone took that quote and wrote an article using part of what he said in that video to make it appear he had repented to god... You've got understand these men and the context for which they are speaking.  I have not seen the original source for this material so I don't know where it came from but I can assure you it's a lie... And you believed it.

                1. Claire Evans profile image91
                  Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, you can watch it come out of his own mouth.

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyT_AOtwHa4

                  1. artblack01 profile image81
                    artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh yeah, Ben Stein, I trust that source, Ben Stein, king liar...  Dawkins didn't say that intelligent design was possible he said you'd have to first of all prove that something was designed and then you'd have to shown who designed the designer....  he never admitted to the possibility of intelligent design....  Let's continue to take things out of context and twist words Clair and Ben!!!

                    That's also something I've said myself here many times, doesn't mean I was also admitting to this possibility!

                    1. Claire Evans profile image91
                      Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Ben asks what is the possibility that intelligent design might turn out to answer to some issue to genetics or evolution.  Dawkins thinks that some civilization may have evolved from some Darwinian means somewhere in the galaxy.  Just to add, evolution doesn’t prove there is no intelligent design.  It just explains how we evolved over the aeons.  He goes go to say they may have designed a form of life.  We can consider the civilization as intelligent beings DESIGNING a form of life.  That means we are the products of intelligent design.  He says that is a possibility.  He says that may be true if you find detail in molecular biology, a sort of signature of some sort of designer is there.  He is just plain admitting there is all else he wouldn’t entertain the possibility.  There either is a signature or there is not.  No possibilities just facts.  He says that designer could be of higher intelligence and that those intelligent designers had to have come from some explicable process.  It couldn’t have just “jumped” into existence, he says.  This is exactly what people for ID have been saying for yonks now.

                      I don’t know what there is not to understand about what he said.  Having said this, I think the “outside commentary” is just plain tripe.

                      You are twisting his words! Nowhere in the video does Dawkins mention the word "prove". He keeps saying, "That's a possibility".

      4. spartucusjones profile image91
        spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        For myself I don't consider myself a Christian and I denounce religion, but I did go from being an atheist to believing in a creator. For me both my parents are atheists, and I raised with that background.

        Eventually it came to the point that a study of science and evolutionary reasoning left a lot of unanswered questions.  Of course a belief in creation also left a lot of unanswered questions. So I was leaning towards being an agnostic  but I didn't like the idea of not committing. So I decided that for me it was a bigger leap of faith to accept evolutionary reasoning than to accept evidence of design.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          A lot of people do this. Don't understand science? No problem - believe in god instead.

          It is refreshing to see some one honest enough to admit this. Well done. Thumbs up and voted "honest."

          1. aguasilver profile image89
            aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Except that's not what he said, he clearly found evolutionary reasoning less believable than evidence of design... so why would you attempt to twist his words...

            Why I wonder?......Oh yes, you need to be right all the time, don't you. smile

            Hmmmm...thinking back over your 18,554 posts.... in 4 years, WOW that's nearly 13 posts per day, no wonder you need to keep them down to inane one liners that try to divert the topic you choose to pester.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Awww - A while ago you were attacking some one for not being active enough to be taken seriously. Now you are attacking me for the opposite.

              No wonder your religion causes so much ill will and hatred. No morals - that is your problem.

              I am right all the time. Sorry if that offends your god. Pity he cannot speak for himself and instead uses you to speak for him. Be a man for a change and speak for yourself.

              1. aguasilver profile image89
                aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Ok Mark, I think you are one of the wonders of Hubpages forums, and I truly do like you, despite the fact that I find you a regal pain in the rear end most of the time. smile

                But you can do better than you do manage, and I appreciate you run sites as well and do your SEO etc, so time is short, but I would rather have one good detailed cutting to the bone response, that actually made me think,(and some of yours have) than a swift inane and mostly the same, quip, shot off as you do whatever else you do.

                Do quality, over quantity would be my suggestion.

                John smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry your god did not understand. As I know you do not speak for yourself and instead speak for this god - I have to say - I am not impressed.

                  Should I use shorter words? Would that help your god understand?

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Hmm. I suppose you expect the almighty to come before you and prove himself at your request?

                    I'm not impressed either.

                    smile

                    1. artblack01 profile image81
                      artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Expectation of belief requires courtesy of appearance.

        2. spartucusjones profile image91
          spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I never said I didn't understand. If anything my problem with the whole evolution/God issue is that the method of proof was very unscientific.

          Generally the whole idea of any scientific experiment is to test the hypothesis before excepting it as proven fact. The problem with evolutionary reasoning is it starts with the premise that their is no designer. So your mind is made up before you even start the experiment.

          I would just like to see science use the same process to analyze this question as they do everything else. Also don't be close minded if someone suggest even the remote possibility of something different. Do the experiment with a open mind, with full objectivity.

          If after examining the evidence you come to the conclusion that their is no God, I have no problem with that. But their is no need to dismiss someone as being unintelligent just because they come to a different conclusion. I'm turned off by the attitude of devout atheists the same way that I'm turned off by religious fanatics. Both school of thoughts are potentially divisive.

          To both groups, believe what you want, have intelligent discussions on forums, but respect the rights and views of others

          1. A Troubled Man profile image59
            A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Not sure where you got that idea, but the premise of evolutionary reasoning is simply natural selection and diversity of species and has nothing to do with making up ones mind beforehand.

            1. spartucusjones profile image91
              spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I was expressing a common viewpoint that I've observed (and even had myself at one point). My father is a biology teacher and I certainty viewed that attitude in him. 

              For example natural selection and diversity as of itself doesn't necessary rule out design. But it does if you already have come to the conclusion that there is no designer beforehand.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Then, he is a terrible biology teacher.



                No, lack of evidence for design rules out design. Natural selection and diversity of species explains the appearance of design.

                1. spartucusjones profile image91
                  spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  My point is, that people in the scientific community are not even allowed to suggest even the remotest possibility that the evidence may point to a designer without being censured. To me that is close minded and unscientific.

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    That is entirely false and ridiculous. Scientists don't suggest design because the understand evolution and that there is no evidence whatsoever for design.



                    Sure, it would be if it weren't entirely false and ridiculous.

          2. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            *Goes on to explain why he doesn't understand.*


            No - you never said you didn't understand, but what you said made it clear that you do not understand.

            This is why belief in majik causes so much ill will.

            1. spartucusjones profile image91
              spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The only thing that causes ill will is close minded individuals from both schools of thoughts.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                No - the ill will comes from people who insist on claiming majik and accusing anyone who doesn't believe in majik as being close minded.

                Such as yourself.

                1. spartucusjones profile image91
                  spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I already said I could care less what people believe. I have no problem with atheists. I can understand how someone could come to that conclusion. I'm not here to try to convince anyone of anything. My point is we shouldn't dismiss someone as unintelligent because they chose to believe something different than we do. It is the lack of tolerance from both sides that cause the ill will.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Odd - it is only people who believe in majik who insist on this. lol

                    1. spartucusjones profile image91
                      spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      You insist that the ill will comes only from one side, and religious fanatics tend to do the same.

                      But there is no ill will if everyone can respect everyone's personal views.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Even if what they believe contradicts intelligence? How does that work?

                    1. spartucusjones profile image91
                      spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Someone having a different view doesn't necessary contradict intelligence.

          3. scottcgruber profile image93
            scottcgruberposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            And how, exactly, would one design an experiment to test evidence of deliberate design of living things by an unobservable entity?

            Bear in mind that science is naturalistic by nature - if it can't be documented, measured, or observed in the real world, it cannot be cited as a cause and thus is in the realm of philosophy rather than science.

            If, on the other hand, a measurable, physical entity could be shown manipulating gene mutations or influencing epigenetics, then this force would be a natural force by definition and could no longer be considered supernatural. So the Creationists lose again.

            1. spartucusjones profile image91
              spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I wasn't suggesting an experiment to prove that there is a designer. I was merely suggesting that when the data in not conclusive, don't be quick to dismiss individuals that feel that design is a possibility.

              1. scottcgruber profile image93
                scottcgruberposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                The issue is not that the data is inconclusive. There IS no data.

                No matter how you try to word it, the design argument is philosophical and thus inherently unscientific. In order for scientists to take design seriously as a legitimate force influencing evolutionary processes, this needs to be proven by hypothesis testing and experiment.

                This is not to say that some scientists cannot hold a personal belief in design or theistic influence while studying the natural forces that shape life. Dr. Francis Collins, current NIH director and known for his work on the Human Genome Project, is outspoken in his views in favor of theistic evolution. Surveys have shown a small minority of scientists who hold similar views.

                The problem I have with the design argument is that it's a manufactured controversy, made up by Creationists in order to insert religion into science textbooks. While I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, to believe in intelligent design is to support the Discovery Institute's wedge strategy via a pathetic argument from ignorance.

                That I cannot respect.

                1. spartucusjones profile image91
                  spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't feel that religion should be introduced into science textbook either. But I'm also anti-religion, and I'm don't necessary consider myself 100% firm believer, I just lean towards the possibility of a designer.

                  But my point is more that scientists should be allowed that leeway, just like the small minority that you have mentioned. I don't feel that the minority should be dismissed as any less intelligent because they submit to a differing viewpoint.

              2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                What data is inconclusive exactly?

                1. spartucusjones profile image91
                  spartucusjonesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Both evolution and creation does not answer all of the questions, and neither side can provide 100% conclusive evidence to support their claims.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I Respect that. Majik is the same as science. Why would I not respect that?

                    1. Jerami profile image78
                      Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      It takes OHhh so much blind faith to believe that if science hasn't discovered it by now; there is nothing about it to know! 
                      sciense probably knows less than one %  of the facts concerning the universe and all of the reality contained therein.
                         I agree with you that many things have been misconceptualized, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing there.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Creationism has zero evidence, evolution has mountains of evidence in every facet of science, conclusive to the point of evolution being a fact.

                    So, what data have you found that is inconclusive? Please explain what you find about evolution that is wrong?

        3. artblack01 profile image81
          artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          What evidence for design? I have yet to see anything that would make me think that anything in the universe that is naturally occurring was designed.  Whenever someone doesn't understand something they always say "a god did it" without bothering to do the research to find out how it could have actually come about.

      5. oceansnsunsets profile image89
        oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Claire, the atheists that I know of that have converted to Christianity have shared their stories.  Two that I know of, said it was because they looked honestly at all the facts, were willing to face their own biases for and against different things, and go where the evidence leaded them.  Almost the same, with varying differences.  It wasn't something concrete like writing in the sky, but rather looking at all things for themselves, honestly, and then asking themselves questions like, "What best explains this world we live in, history, humanity, and the human condition?"  Also, "What explains all we know of in science, philosophy, etc."

        1. A Troubled Man profile image59
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Two? The rarity of even one atheist tossing away his reason and rationale is extreme. They obviously weren't atheists to begin with, no one simply tosses facts out the window they previously understood as facts. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

        2. Claire Evans profile image91
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks for your comment.  Those who truly seek will find.  C.S. Lewis took the same approach looking at the facts of the case for Jesus and became convinced.

      6. nightwork4 profile image60
        nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        all jokes aside i have seen two people who were atheists become christians. one ended up commiting suicide a few years later and the other one is now a pastor who is under investigation for child abuse . the thing about both of them is that before they got all religious, they were both heavy prescription drug users.

        1. Claire Evans profile image91
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Perhaps the one atheist who committed suicide had too high of expectations of Christianity; that it would be the answer to all his/her problems.  The pastor may have converted to Christianity because child abuse is more easily undetected when it involves someone in such an esteemed position.  Christianity was clearly used as a cover.

        2. aguasilver profile image89
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Nobody says that once you come to faith the enemy cannot attack you, after all it's stated that he prowls around seeking to destroy 'those he may' and obviously he could succeed with them, which I am sorry to hear.

          The enemy hates losing his acolytes and will always try to regain them, or if that's not possible disable them from serving God.

          Thankfully there are many success stories as well.

          1. artblack01 profile image81
            artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            The enemy?  Ha, you mean criminals who claim to be atheists (just because you deny or affirm something doesn't make you a member of that group) use Christianity to do all sorts of horrible things or steal money from other poor stupid believers.  Like Pat Robertson, Robert Schuller, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, John Hagee, just to name a few.  Or someone who is clinically depressed using whatever desperate ideas claim to help people but don't and then commit suicide when their desperate attempt is made with lack of understanding of that persons condition....  it more just proves how impotent Christianity and religion are.

            aguasilver obviously thinks that anyone who does not believe the way he does is in league with the devil and no matter how much proof you give him that he is misguided and wrong on all things he will always claim to be right no matter what....  he says we are close minded and hard hearted?  aguasilver, you are the very definition of this.

            So here is what I will do, let's end this now, let's agree to disagree, you will never convince me that your fantasy is reality and no amount of proof/evidence I give to you for everything science related will ever change your mind because you are stuck in your fantasy world, till you die.  So I will acknowledge you less, I will continue to answer legitimate questions seriously and I will continue to correct errors and lies in all your statements, but I could care less what you believe or disbelieve, because reality always wins, not you not me, but reality.

            1. aguasilver profile image89
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Then I am content that God will win, for He is simply a reality you currently cannot understand or measure, but you will one day know the truth, believe me, it will come to you when the time is right.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Agreed.

              2. artblack01 profile image81
                artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                When you can't understand or measure or even find evidence for such a being you can't conclude such a being exists. 
                You can wishful think such a time between me and God will happen but I am content that my life is great without the need for such a fantasy.  So all I can say is sorry you feel bad that I don't share in your fantasy, but I don't and won't...  until your fantasy God feels your fantasy time is right.

      7. heavenbound5511 profile image80
        heavenbound5511posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I know that God is the only one that can cut to there hearts and reveal Himself to all unbelievers.
        If I was seeking for God to intercede I would have to pray in Jesus name.

        Prayer for the Lost

        Here's an example: Father God I pray that you open there eyes,ears and prepare there heart for the ministry of Jesus Christ.
        That you will send the perfect laborer to them to minister the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
        I would bind up the spirit of anti-christ, the spirit of the world,bitterness, and all works of the devil in Jesus name.
        Also I would pray God forgive them of there sins in Jesus name- and the sins of there bloodline relatives. Pull them out of destruction before it is to late in Jesus name. I'd also loose the Holy Spirit and God's angels to surround them, along with pleading the blood of Jesus over there home,families and etc as God leads me to pray.All in Jesus name.Also if there is a picture of them I touch it while praying for them.
        This is ONLY to help those that are seeking to pray for the lost

        1. Claire Evans profile image91
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you, heavenbound5511. smile

      8. ib radmasters profile image60
        ib radmastersposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        For an atheist to do that, it would probably be caused by a severe blow to the head causing brain damage.

        1. aguasilver profile image89
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Funny, I never felt a thing!

          But when I was an atheist I did have a pretty thick skull.

          No, my blow was felt in the 'heart' and in the awakening of my spirit. smile

      9. Titen-Sxull profile image94
        Titen-Sxullposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Christianity and most religions prey upon emotional vulnerability. There's no purely rational reasons to believe the supernatural claims of religion but if they tell you you're a dirty sinner in need of salvation enough times it might start to break through. Let's say you've just lost your job or your wife has left you, perhaps it's caused by some serious flaw you have, a gambling addiction, an affair, etc, then you see some emotionally charged televangelist on TV who seems to be speaking directly to people like you, and then voila, you convert.

        Most sudden conversions I've heard of are those who try to quit alcohol and drugs they find it difficult to do, then they turn to imaginary higher powers for help and when they finally do quit all credit goes to Jesus, Allah or whatever God they believed in.

        1. aguasilver profile image89
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          ...and your point is?

          Sure, when folk realise that the life THEY have made for themselves is actually not working, they seek answers outside of their SELF and outside of what the WORLD taught them, and it may well be that some slick TV evangelist reaches through their EGO (which is temporarily shattered by the aforesaid events you depicted) and presents a picture that is appealing. So what?

          I remember once berating Benny Hinn as he pranced around the stage in front of a huge crowd of people, I asked God why He allowed this man to sully His name with such antics...

          "Could YOU reach these folk?" He asked.

          And as I watched the crowd, I realised that these folk were just like the guy you mentioned above, leading hopeless worldly lives of affluence with no substance, and prepared to look at Benny Hinns show because he was looking just like them and was saying what they WANTED to hear, give me your money and God will bless you 100 fold.

          HOW God gets our attention is less relevant that the fact that He DOES.

          Like scripture states He goes after the one lost sheep more than worries about what the other 99 are doing in the field.

          He uses many different ways to break through the world lies and deceptions that lure people away from Him and into their own private hells.

          I thank God that He cares.



          ...again, so what?

          You just made the case perfectly, quit while you are ahead!

          People make a mess of their lives living as the world prescribes, then when their lives crash and burn they turn to God, and get healed, and give the credit to God.

          I would think that is an obvious thing to do?

          If you made a total financial mess of your life and went to your Father and he paid all your debts and put you back into a sound life with no further problems.

          Wouldn't YOU give HIM the glory, praise and thanks?.

          Methinks thou protesteth too much.

          I was one of those folk who ignored God until my life hit the ground and shattered in pieces, and God did send Christ to pick me up and restore me to His Grace and Mercy, and that was 20 years ago, and He still carries me today, not because I still have those problems, but because I know His arms are stronger than mine, and for as long as I let Christ make the running in my life, I need have no concern for the world trying to destroy me again.

          The point we all need to decide is WHAT do we believe?

          I am 100% secure in my faith in God and Christ.

          If I am wrong and the Muslims are correct, then I would burn in their hell, but I have no fear of that happening because I am 100% secure that Christ is the answer.

          If you are 100% secure in your beliefs that knowledge is the answer, or whatever YOU believe, then that is great, and I am delighted that you found your beliefs and are secure in them.

          But why are you bothering to chase people who have different beliefs from you?

          It makes no sense, and will achieve nothing.

          Those who are still less than 100% secure in their beliefs will continue vacillating around until they reach whatever belief answers ALL of their doubts, or they run out of time and die, when they will find out which beliefs were correct.

          We daily stake our lives and deaths upon what we believe, you have made your decision, we all will find out the truth, so why all this verbiage trying to reconvert or de-convert folk who are not shifting?

          I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good, and is sufficient in all things for me, if you have 100% belief in something else, congratulations, I am happy for you.

          1. 0
            jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            why do you?

          2. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
            EinderDarkwolfposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I think you completely missed the point.

            No, that's not what he said at all. What he said is, religions take advantage of peoples emotional states and there own brow beating to try and force people to convert there ways. After enough brow beating (torture of a type for those who don't know that) people end up submitting instead of leading their own lives. They even quit thinking for themselves and fall in with the crowd.

            As for the losing the wife and the job because of a gambling addiction and/or affair, remember that he didn't say that these things changed. Your just jumping to the conclusion that they did. In fact, these very issues tend to persist and not change, the difference? At least when they die they are expecting a paradise where it's not going to hurt them to do it!

            It seems like for someone who has an IQ almost equal to Einsteins, you have absolutely no common sense what so ever. And you reading is well below sub-par.



            Ahh! I finally understand! When I make a change in MY life, I'm not the one responsible for that change! I finally understand what your saying!

            I mean really? You expect people to buy into that BS? You are a person, with a brain, and with your own free will. If you make a change in your life, all credit goes to you for making that change.

            Yes, anyone that helps you along the way should get credit. But as has already been pointed out, over and over and over again, God doesn't interfere in anyone's life, ever. You have free will and what you do is up to you and he's not going to play a part in it. Therefore, when you make a change in your life, you get the credit, not some sadistic super being who has already promised not to interfere in your life.

            As for lives and deaths and trying to convert and deconvert people, Christians are the one's who going around trying to preach to others and convince them to convert, or deconvert from their current believes and then convert the christian beliefs. Quit blaming others for the exact reason your here. If you want to stimulate thoughts thats fine. You have a bad habit of doing nothing but preaching and trying to convince (i.e convert) people to your way of thinking. Pull the beam from your own eye. You can clearly see it after all.

            1. aguasilver profile image89
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I will ignore most of your post, it is inconsequential.

              The above I will answer.

              We have free choice, rather than free will, free will is indicative that we can will a million dollars to appear and it will happen.

              Choice is just that, we all choose to obey or rebel against authority.

              The declaration of SELF is indicative as to why anyone rejects Christ as the authority over their life.

              SELF - EGO - PRIDE

              All killer faults in anyone.

              The 'sadistic super being' you refer to also stated:

              Jeremiah 33 2:3
              Thus saith the LORD the maker thereof, the LORD that formed it, to establish it; the LORD is his name; Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

              Psalm 25:9
              The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

              Psalm 48:14
              For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.

              John 16:13
              Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


              God takes more than a passing interest in our lives and guides those who chose to surrender their SELF to His WILL.

              Not surprisingly anyone who is SELF orientated and wants to claim the glory for themselves will NOT be guided by God, He will continue to protect them to whatever degree possible from the enemy who seeks to destroy them, but the authorities those people give to the enemy are legal rights that God will not over rule UNLESS the person chooses to ask God to change their lives.

              At which point the enemy loses his power and control.



              But I am here to preach, never said I was not, and I actually don't care whether you dislike it or not, no reason why I should.

              I 'preach' to the converted and anyone who is interested in reading my posts.

              I don't force you to read what I write, HubPages is an open platform for discussion, when I see something that I am not interested in, I just track past it, you have the same option.

              If you are here only to take part in a mass debating society, so well and good, but I view this place as a mission field, a place where believers can fellowship and encourage each other, and a place where the deception of the enemy can be opposed and exposed, and where Christ can be presented loud and clearly, which is presumably why the resident gaggle of atheists attack so vehemently and show their indecision about what they believe.

              If you guys did not keep feeding me your lines, my life would be more difficult! so thanks for the attacks, they really help keep the focus on Christ.

              http://www.buffaloridgebaptist.org/images/button_100sure.jpg

              I AM

              1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                It is a public forum and not a mission field, hence you're breaking the TOS by acting upon your views.



                Read above what you just said about your views of this public forum. It is YOU who is attacking based on what YOU said.

                1. aguasilver profile image89
                  aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  TM, to a believer the whole of life is a mission field, my hubs are mostly Christian hubs written to answer questions about faith, or to expose deceptions of the world, they are mission statements, it's an expression... get over it.

                  http://www.buffaloridgebaptist.org/images/button_100sure.jpg

                  I AM

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I could care less about your ridiculous hubs, but this is public forum, not a mission field. Get over it.

                    1. aguasilver profile image89
                      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Public Forum... yes, that's right PUBLIC, open to anyone, you push your beliefs and use it to make inane remarks, I push mine, that's why it's a public forum, if HubPages decide to make it members only, separate 'religion' from 'philosophy' and only want to allow religious debate, in the religious forum, that's fine by me, I will stay out of the philosophy forum with any Christian content, and never visit the atheists forums (do they exist?).

              2. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                EinderDarkwolfposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Ah yes, it's always inconsequential when your confronted with something you really don't understand.

                Ahh, so we don't have free will? Which means my will is controlled by an outside force in which I have no freedom to do anything? I don't think you quite grasp what it means to have free will. Perhaps we need to clearly define it for you.

                Free Will:
                  Free will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints.

                  “Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.

                  Free Will is the ability to do what you want, and pursue your interests


                The declaration of Self you say? Well, where is this superbeing who is controlling every act and thought of my being? Certainly when I'm just thinking and not making a choice he has to be there according to you. Yet and still, there is no evidence of that. There is no super being trying to supress my thoughts. I think perhaps your just wishing to be better than humans.

                I do admit though that Ego and Pride are killer faults. But your god has a very big ego that you continue to stroke for him, and I bet he takes a lot of pride in that! Not to mention you stroking your own ego by trying to assert your self as an "authority" and your pride in speaking of your beliefs while you try to push them on other people.

                Jeremiah 33 is a lie, I should know because I've already been down that path. He never answered and never showed me mighty things. After years of waiting, I said screw it and moved on.

                As for Psalms quotes, well we really aren't talking about Songs so I don't see what relevance they hold. But if you really want to go down that route, neither one of this have any application as to whether or not he's a sadistic super being.

                This quote from John is way out of the league on anything, unless your suggesting God is not a Supreme but is only a minor spirit. In which case I think you just proved that.

                IF your god takes more than a passing interest in our lives, then why are you only able to find 4 quotes after 24 hrs of searching that even come close to saying so?

                Glory? Who was talking about glory? Since you like to insert stuff, how about we just call it what it is, credit. I don't give your god credit for my actions, because I'm the one taking them, not him and not anyone else.

                What enemy are you refferring to?



                Well if your here to preach, then why are taking an affront when someone else seems to be doing the same? That's just pure pride in yourself.

                You couldn't force me if you wanted to, and your completely self deluded if you think you could. I agree that Hubpages is an open platform for discussion. I do skip over many things. A great many things actually.

                It's not indecision that atheists are attacking. Atheists are here attacking the fact that your not DISCUSSING anything. Instead your preaching and trying to stroke your own ego while you do it, Einstein. Of course, I don't expect you to understand this because apparently to you, a discussion and preaching are the same exact thing.

                I'm sure they do help you keep stroking your god's ego. If you want to view those who are trying to discuss as attacking, so be it, that's your choice. If you quit preaching and started discussing though, I think you might see that they aren't attacks at all.

                Am I 100% sure? Without a doubt.

      10. Hokey profile image60
        Hokeyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        LSD most likely. You could see god too!

      11. Jyle Dupuis profile image88
        Jyle Dupuisposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I don't believe that any Atheist pretends to know anything for certainty. Historians develop new theories to explain the past. Nothing in the past changes, what happened, happened, just our understanding changes with new evidence. Despite  relating more with Atheism I don't know anything for certain, I don't think we ever could. So if you are asking how to convert an Atheist to Christianity I would say don't bother. They have lost faith because of various reasons. You will never convince someone to change beliefs with debate, only through life experiences.

        1. Claire Evans profile image91
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          There are many people who say they know for a fact God doesn't exist but I obviously do not believe it nor you.  I do not make it my life's mission to convert atheists.  We are here to testify to the truth.  It's called planting a seed.  Then it is up to the non-believer whether he lets that seed grow. And you sure are right about only life experiences converting people.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well you have certainly planted the seed that I am correct to reject your ridiculous religion.

            No one says they know for a fact that your god does not exist. Best I can go with is "infinitely improbable and logically impossible."

            That is typical though. Self professed Christians such as yourself are so dishonest, they put people off instead of converting them.

            1. aguasilver profile image89
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Well it's a start Mark, not that promising but at least a start, you were adamant He did not exist in the past...

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I don't believe it exists. I cannot say for a fact it does not. Nor have I ever said that. I 100% spit on the idea of your Holy Spirit and 100% reject your hate-mongering garbage.

                Still telling porkies huh? Do you burn for that or do you get to say the majik words after you are dead?

                So - no room for error on your part? No possibility that you are wrong?

                1. Claire Evans profile image91
                  Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  What is our idea of the Holy Spirit?

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Majik!

                2. aguasilver profile image89
                  aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Mark, of course their is always the possibility that believers are wrong, it's possible that throughout recorded history some alien intelligence has been producing similar or even identical hallucinations in billions of people simultaneously and controlling our minds so that we all see the same things (although obviously some will interpret those things differently)and making us worship some created image of God that they have produced...

                  Just not very probable.

                  Mark: "Nor have I ever said that. I 100% spit on the idea of your Holy Spirit and 100% reject your hate-mongering garbage. "

                  Good, I seem to remember.... but we were both angry at the time!

                  Anyhow, good progress, if we can ever get to dismiss the alpha male machismo we both demonstrate, we could have some interesting chats.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    At least you admit the possibility that you are wrong. Good for you - that is a start.

                    Now I think about it - that is actually a major step. Basically you just agreed that your god is not very probable. wink

                    Seeing as aliens have exactly the same probability as your god.

                    Good for you. The seed is planted. Maybe one day you will be able to think rationally. Who knows? Plenty of other religionists have deconverted before.

                    I am sure we could have some interesting chats. I doubt very much you would speak to me the way you tend to do online to my face. wink

                    1. vector7 profile image60
                      vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Why? Are you a big scary man Mark?

                      I would.

                      http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-cool14.gif

                  2. Claire Evans profile image91
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Believers could be wrong about what?

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      About their beliefs.

                  3. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                    EinderDarkwolfposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    It's also possible that it's a universal consciousness type effect. Something you opt into in order to share the delusion of another. As energy goes on forever, without end, and thoughts are energy, it's perfectly possible.

                    1. aguasilver profile image89
                      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      But as I said; Just not very probable.

            2. Claire Evans profile image91
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Well you have certainly planted the seed that I am correct to reject your ridiculous religion.

              No one says they know for a fact that your god does not exist. Best I can go with is "infinitely improbable and logically impossible."

              That is typical though. Self professed Christians such as yourself are so dishonest, they put people off instead of converting them.

              I've seen someone state it as a fact and others said it depended on what the definition of God was.  Unbeknownst to you, Christians have planted a seed.  You wouldn't bother addressing the same people over and over again who have this ridiculous religion knowing full well that you cannot change them.  No one is going to want to beat a dead horse for very long.


              http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6509576_f248.jpg

              Why do this?

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Odd - you are the one here evangelizing and I am the one beating the dead horse?

                No - you have not planted anything worthwhile. At best you are helping to convince bystanders that you are mentally ill.

                LOL at such a high opinion you have of yourself. Unbeknownst to you - you are pushing people away from your religion.

                Keep at it. Maybe one day we will have dropped such superstition completely from our society.

                You seem to be here to bolster your own faith actually. As you keep claiming you have proof. Surely proof defeats faith in that case?

                Unbeknownst to you - you are proving your god does not exist. Guess you don't know yourself very well at all.

                1. Claire Evans profile image91
                  Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, aren't you? What do you hope to achieve here? What are you achieving here?  A person who truly believes someone is mentally ill will not bother to indulge in conversation with them.  That really is beating a dead horse.  If someone said they worship pink ponies, I would move on rather creeped out.



                  How so? What should I say to make Christianity is worthwhile?  I do not have a high opinion of myself.  You don't have to have special powers to know the Holy Spirit.  It is not of my own merits.



                  Well, maybe you'd prefer Lucifer-worship.  You won't have a choice under the New World Order.



                  I think I've given this analogy before to you.  A child doesn't doubt the existence of his/her parents but has faith in them that they have their best interests at heart.



                  Okay, well, cheers.  We don't have anything more to say to each other.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Guess not. Sorry you are incapable of understanding why your beliefs are damaging and detrimental to our society. Or why anyone would want them removed from our society. Perhaps if you understood yourself a little better?

                    You can give all the false analogies you care to. How funny that real people are the same as your majikal god. lol lol

                    How funny that all parents have the best interests of their child at heart. Guess you don't get out much either.

                    Keep thrashing the dead horse. Unbeknownst to you, I have planted a seed of reason - maybe it will come to fruition, although - in the words of Darth Vader, "the denial is strong in this one."

                    1. 0
                      jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      What the psychiatrist couldn't achieve with his treatment, your are going to with a few words? I don't think so.

          2. 0
            jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You are here to spread your delusion so that you won't feel abnormal.

        2. 0
          Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Some atheists pretend to know, with absolute certainty, that God doesn't exist. When I became an atheist about 31 years ago, there were more of that type of atheist. I suppose that I was that type of atheist for about 15 minutes.

          As for changing beliefs through debate, it happens rarely, but it does happen. Twenty-five ago, I talked a Baptist minister out of his faith, and I've been responsible for a few deconversions since then, the last as recently as 2011. However, it must be said that all of the deconverted were scrupulous followers of Shakespeare's maxim, "to thine own self be true," regardless of where it led.

          The Baptist minister later decided that I was Satan -- the literal Satan -- and converted back. Let me add that it isn't my mission to deconvert anybody; I explain my beliefs, and respond to the inevitable objections with as much dispassion as I can. Whatever happens as a consequence of our dialogue is never planned.

    5. aka-dj profile image79
      aka-djposted 4 years ago

      Let one tell you himself!
      http://youtu.be/TbA_kps9NCY

      1. artblack01 profile image81
        artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I knew there was something wrong when he started talking about "where did out sense of right and wrong come from" it came from us being social animals. We aren't above tre animals in this sense. His supposed knowledge is in chemistry and he has a supposed degree in this field and has done supposed research into systic fibrosis... There is something fishy about him and the way he talks about faith not to mention his home origin... I'd say more but I like to debunk things... I am finding all sorts of funny business here. Having studied psychology and having written papers on how to spot people who are... Not being 100% honest... I'll just say this. I don't think he was an atheist who found his arguments flimsy.... That made me laugh.

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Well, I suppose you can try and debunk this guy, or the next one. Or even the one after that, but, eventually a picture will start to emerge.
          A bit like the near death experience research. You may debunk every one on it's own merits (or lack of), but then you are still left with questions about death, and what's "beyond the veil".
          At the end of the day, NONE of these examples may convince you personally, but at least it makes you think, (I hope)!

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Funny thing is these nde 'coincidences' just keep happening, and happening, and happening, and.. well you get the point.

            It almost seems like. . .  wait a minute...



            smile

            1. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Funny thing is they don't happen to everyone and the religious ones differ on what religion you were brought up as.... Isn't that funny? For instance, I know a guy who had an nde about Buddha... Hmmmm, or a Hindu about Kali... He said that was scary if you know who Kali is.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                lol

                I guess they don't happen to everyone...

                Most of them just DIE.

                lol

                1. artblack01 profile image81
                  artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Wow, good to see how believers can make fun of death and such, that's another good reason not to be a believer, they all seem to be insensitive assholes.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Hmm.

                    Just be glad I'm man enough to overlook childishness and ignore the report button.

                    You sweet thing you. lol

                    smile

          2. artblack01 profile image81
            artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I've already had a near death experience myself so I don't need to debunk any of them.
            Sometimes you dream about things when you are totally unconscious and if it happens to be a religious dream when you almost die then you might just turn to religion without questioning it. Fortunately, my nde wasn't religious in the least.

    6. Matthew Kirk profile image89
      Matthew Kirkposted 4 years ago

      Research I have done suggest that it is usually in relation to difficulties in ones life and often a strange experience (that though explainable) makes them adamant that god had spoken to them or something similar... i.e. light at the end of the tunnel.

      It nearly never happens with proper atheists though, usually to agnostics or people who are simply un-religious. For the simply un-religious, sudden conversion to the more extreme forms of Chritianity and other religions usually comes at a turning point in the individuals life: i.e. they are homeless, or an alcoholic or drug abuser or are involved in prostitution etc... They use the communities and the strict rules these groups maintain to regulate their life; it can be positive for these people - however it is usually the community support they recieve and the promise of a fresh start (confession of sins etc) that is the real catalyst for the people I describe above - not god.

      1. aguasilver profile image89
        aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        ...and to a degree I support your theory, I have seen many people come to faith from adversity or due to bad life choices that Christ has dealt with for them, but only to a degree.

        From experience of being around folk in rehab (not as a patient) we see many who get 'fixed up' (bad use of words, but you know what I mean) and get clean from their problems, and yes, the collective strength of the people praying with and for them does work to help get them straight.

        But those who stay straight are the ones who truly find faith and trust in Christ,  many fall by the wayside because they are still unprepared to totally surrender their will to His, and that is also covered in scripture:

        Matthew 13:6-8
        King James Version (KJV)

        And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

        And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

        But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.


        I have seen evidence of all those points, especially the last one, because those who come to Christ from personal adversity and fall 'into good ground' really do bear fruit, for there is no better counsellor than one who has been to hell already and come back.

        In reality God will use whatever you give Him to get your attention, He is ever there watching our lives, and ready to step in when WE ask Him to do so.

        Equally, I have seen many believers who were seriously damaged by the world (our enemy) in what I see as an attempt to kill them or stop them coming to faith.

        The enemy can often 'see' who will be liable to be of use to God, and will seek to stop them fulfilling their God given role.

        Sometimes the enemy uses drugs to try and stop them, sometimes sex, other times they will simply be made to feel so very intelligent, and often sheer wealth is used to disable a potential believer.

        We live in a deceptive world, and anything that will stop a person from fulfilling their destiny will be used by the enemy to disrupt lives and change futures, when that future looks set to lead to God.

        The enemy owns us UNTIL we reject his control over us and elect to serve God instead, only then does the enemy lose his grip on our lives.

      2. Claire Evans profile image91
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        A "proper" atheist had a NDE and converted to Christianity after experiencing hell.  He said it is easy to be an atheist when your life is peachy.  You have no need for God.  Who inspires all good? The Holy Spirit and so the community would have responded to Him and helped the stricken. 

        Sometimes people don't have to be told.  They suddenly have an epiphany.

        1. artblack01 profile image81
          artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I find all these stories condescending. Makes me wonder why I didn't dream of heaven or hell when I had my near death experience, boo hoo. Guess it was because I am secure in my belief and my hopes and fears aren't based on my culture or the fantasy of the religion my family true to bring me up in.

          1. Claire Evans profile image91
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You had a near death experience? I think the atheists who get these NDEs are the ones God knows will convert because of it.  It's like Paul.  Even though he persecuted the Christians, God could see his potential.

            This particular man who had the NDE  in the example was a drunkard and womanizer and was yearning for peace.  His NDE gave him that peace.

            1. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry I find it a suspect story. I don't believe the man was an atheist. It's similar to that story you repeated earlier about another famous atheist and him believing in aliens.  It just makes Christians look gullible, you'll believe anything another member of your group says that brings a positive image to your religion, even if it's a total provable lie.

              1. Claire Evans profile image91
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I didn't say Dawkins believed in aliens.  I said he said it is possible that aliens seeded the earth.

                Take a look at the testimony of this atheist who had the NDE for yourself:

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3adbayvKWA

                1. artblack01 profile image81
                  artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Testimony and reality are two different things, sorry to tell you people lie.  Christians included....  probably more than most since they have more to lose according to their irrational fear of damnation.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Again???

                    Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit....

                    Airtight aint it?

                    lol

                    1. artblack01 profile image81
                      artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      I deny what has no evidence for it's existence, period.  If you have evidence for ANYTHING you believe, I'm open to hearing about it.

              2. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Dawkins very publically entertains the aliens theory...

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Just as he publicly entertains a whole lot of ideas and concepts, so what?

                  1. artblack01 profile image81
                    artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I just love how seriously they take "entertaining" an idea.

                    1. vector7 profile image60
                      vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Just stating is all buddy.

                      Drama, drama, drama...

                      lol

    7. 0
      Emile Rposted 4 years ago

      People need others. Most people I know, who have converted to religion, have suffered some trauma and they are emotionally fragile. Religion can afford them healing and helps them believe that there is a method behind the madness life can appear to be, at times.

      1. aguasilver profile image89
        aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Seems reasonable, after all if you finally find that running your own life has failed miserably, I guess allowing God to have a go seems like a good idea, and when life gets better, well most believers are sensible enough to know that if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

        I would never wish to return to being who I was before I came to faith, and believe me the guy that I was had some fun, lots of fun actually, before I came to see that my life was actually empty of something.

        Guess I found that God shaped hole was not being filled by all the stuff I was doing to have fun.

        1. 0
          Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Good point. People who can't balance their own lives and do what is in their best interest emotionally do need help. Religion serves a purpose for those who lack the ability to understand the long and short term ramifications of bad choices.

          1. 0
            jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Quite right. Religion is the crutches of the unsound mind. Or as Marx put it, religion is the opiate of masses.

          2. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            What are the ramifications of bad choices long term?

            You know, after death puts it's cards out on the table and asks if your hand is higher?

            He usually doesn't ask, just starts raking in his chips off the river...

            So?

            smile

            1. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The ramifications of bad choices are not just long term, they are immediate...  someone gets hurt either directly or indirectly even if it's not you, but like a butterfly effect everything effects everything else...  you may not see it right away, hell, you might even be an insensitive ass clown and not care about anyone but yourself and what you believe, but you will be unknowingly burning bridges with people who could be friends....

      2. Matthew Kirk profile image89
        Matthew Kirkposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Exactly Emile R - I am an atheist and KNOW there is no god, but can see the benefit that SOME religious communities can offer.

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
          Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Wow, how do you know there is no god? I am intrigued.

          1. 0
            jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Isn't it quite simple? Just define god.

            1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
              Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Hang on a minute, he didnt say that he knows the christian god doesnt exist. He said he knows that NO god exists.

              You cant disprove that by defining ONE god.

              1. 0
                jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                We can, just try defining any god.
                Unless you equate god with universe there is no god, which is not religious(any) people mean by god.
                Here god:The creator and ruler of the universe
                and source of all moral authority; the Supreme
                Being.
                There is no creator
                There is no absolute morality for a moral authority.
                Supreme being so far is human.

                1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  How do you know nothing created this universe? How do you know that it is not possible to create a universe within this universe?

                  Maybe a scientist will discover that it is possible to create a universe within certain parameters. That scientist would qualify as god to the universe he created.

                  To claim knowledge of such a thing is ridiculous since it cannot be proven, or tested, or demonstrated

                  1. 0
                    jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    What we call universe is the matter and space all around us, including us.
                    Space is nothing, and nothing doesn't need creation.
                    God has to exist before he can create, so matter too exist always.
                    Besides nobody, not even god can make something from nothing.
                    So no creator, then what happen to god?

                    1. aguasilver profile image89
                      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      You speak of more knowledge than any scientist ever claimed to have, it must be great to KNOW all that you know, and be more certain than any scientist ever managed to be.

                    2. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                      Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      There are theories about something from nothing. Have you seen the lecture given by lawrence krauss? Very interesting.

                2. mischeviousme profile image60
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  The belief in a supreme being, stems from the desire to define and understand the root of intelligence.

                3. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I just realised that "God" is not defined as creator of the universe.

                  I always thought it was.

                  Strange.

            2. aguasilver profile image89
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              God is the entity you will stand before some day.

              1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                That's an assertion of knowledge. You are guilty of hypocracy I believe.

                1. aguasilver profile image89
                  aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  No, Jomine asked for people to define of God, that is MY definition of God, based upon scripture, and is far less assertive of knowledge unknown to humanity than his assertions.

                  Billions of people hold this assertion to be true, whereas he made assertions that even the top scientists would blanch at making, and few would agree with in any case.

                  It seems to me that atheists do scientists a disfavour by making assertions that scientists would never make.

                  1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                    Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Starting a post with "No" is what all annoying trolls do. It is a bad habit that immediately annoys the recipient.

                    You claimed that someone will stand before god. That is an assertion of knowledge which you accused someone else of and that is why I accused you of hypocracy.

                    1. vector7 profile image60
                      vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      No, a troll is much more annoying.

                      smile

              2. 0
                jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I stand before the dog in my profile picture most days, but it never told me it is god!

                1. aguasilver profile image89
                  aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Maybe you are unwilling to communicate with your dog, mine has very good  'conversations' with us, though of course you would not believe in him, as you do not understand his language, nor it seems have any inclination to widen your vocabulary or understanding.

                  Viewing the world in black and white may suit you fine, but when there are 256 shades of grey to consider, before you even get to the 16 million hues between black and white that constitute colour, I think yours is a limited world-view, but that's just my opinion.

                  http://good-wallpapers.com/pictures/2029/rainbow_boy.jpg

                  Even a child can understand that black and white is not all there is....

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                    jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Just like your god, which is your opinion only.

                    1. aguasilver profile image89
                      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      Oh come on, surely you can do better than a playground retort "na na de nan na"

                      Express yourself in full colour, black and white is sooo constricting! smile

                    2. aka-dj profile image79
                      aka-djposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      That can't be right?
                      It's not just his opinion, I share his opinion! hmm