No question, or specific point other that Christ is REAL, and you can never be sure you are right, outside of HIM.
Watch this short video, and meditate on it's message.
No audio needed as it's subtitled, and is only 4;44 mins long.
Christ is NOT real...as you have already demonstrated months ago. This Imam is merely substituting one delusion for another.
Why should anyone desire to meditate on such egregious psychotic nonsense.
What a life transforming change of delusions.
Probably at the risk of death.
Moslems don't take lightly their believers leaving their faith.
(Something you would know little about.)
Was getirtite burned at the stake recently? (as was Giardiano Bruno)
Sorry, truly had no idea.
I'm soooo sorry to hear that!
What has getitrite got to do with any of it?
Anybody can take a decision that may prove detrimental to once life, how does it show god? By your logic the terrorists who stakes their life are the biggest proof for Allah.
Now, speak for yourself, not him.
When did you risk your life on your faith?
Convert, or die. OR, Convert and die. As the case may be.
I recon your bark is louder than your bite.
What are you driving at?
Your point was somebody who takes a life changing decision is the proof of god.
I pointed out that people who take life changing decision irrespective of your god, and even irrespective of reason and logic(there are people who committee suicide when Michel Jackson died, does it prove Jackson is god?) hence that is not a proof. Can't you understand even that much?
I never tried to "prove" anything.
What "proof" are you talking about?
Moslem Imam converts to Christ, who miraculously healed him
Christ is REAL
Sp people converting does not show christ is real.
Did you watch the video?
It was real enough for him to convert. (No small thing!)
You may belittle it as just foolishness, but, you have to (try) to see it from where HE LIVES.
Through out history people have changed religion, that is they just changed their opinion, so what?
Does a christian converting to islam or hinduism make Allah or vishnu real?
No, but showing that you are prepared to be killed for changing your faith is a strong indicator that Christ is very real for you.
"real for you"
That is what I call subjective. The person who got converted to islam, allah is very real for him, and for a hindu, vishnu is.
That does bring in the question, what is "real"?
Well any Christian converting to Islam would suffer no penalty from their fellow Christians, they may be prayed for, they may have folk trying to see what had happened, but they WOULD NOT have anybody killing them.
As for the other religions, I have no idea whether they kill folk for changing religion, I just know we don't kill folk for that.
And what is real?
I would say that being prepared to be killed makes whatever you are prepared to die for 100% real to that person.
My daughter is real, I would die for her, I cannot imagine I would die for a concept or ideal, except maybe trying to protect someone being attacked by others, but that would only demonstrate that I view freedom of opinion and actions to be a REAL consideration.
You forgot history? how many people are killed in the christain protestant fight? I'm not going to mention the witch hunting....
If christians don't kill today it is not the merit of christians, but some revolutionaries who over threw the chruch.
That does not answer the question, but only shows the priorities in your life.
This does not answer either question.
Do you see how this kind of response diminishes your self-proclaimed intelligence?
You can't perform simple tasks of conversation rules.
Which question are you referring to?
You asked three
1. Did you watch the video
2. Was getirtite burned at the stake recently?
3. What proof are you talking about?
4.When did you risk your life on your faith?
Convert, or die. OR, Convert and die. As the case may be.
1. yes, I watched the video, so?
2. I already replied.
4.I'm not a fool to die for something that I might be wrong about. But there are so many people who had faced similar situation and choose their faith or death. But how does that make christ any real, as claimed by the OP?
After all this, you still didn't answer the question.
Oh well, I guess my English, and your English are just different languages.
Hey there AKA - nice thread. Got a lot of arguments and ill will going. Well done.
No wonder all you guys hide your real names.
Actually, I was hoping for some of our Muslim friends to enter the discussion.
So far, I only got one comment.
But thanks for bringing attention to your favorite topic.
I get it. I get it.
How you coping without smoking?
Been a while now!
Doing well thanks. Over 2 years now. I am hoping that at some point the cravings will go away completely.
FSM not bothered!
Any associated weight gain, or similar side effects?
(Perhaps more religion loathing than before?)
I do hope you still retained some sense of humor!!!
Yup - lost 40 lbs from my max, but still struggling to keep the weight down.
Your beliefs are always good for a laugh AKA.
I am strictly here to enjoy what I do, and say.
Perhaps even bless a few folk along the way.
Made some real friends too.
Like earnest, I recon you and I would get along splendidly in the real world, as long as we stayed out of the religion/God/faith arena.
Alas, I'm not planning any trips to Europe in general, nor France in particular.
Perhaps you will venture down under some day.
We have a lot of Poms down here, You'll feel right at home!
I hope to one day. I especially like the look of New Zealand.
Think so, even after stating all your questions and their answers you say it is still unanswered. Most probably you are speaking a different language, a language that I don't understand. May be that is the special gift you were talking about!
Are you stating that killing someone who decides that their faith of birth was wrong, is acceptable and justified?
Simply because they chose a different faith?
Why not? Christians are still murdering each other for following different cults.
why you have to see the worst in other's line before you understand the whole meaning?
I meant, I don't care if someone changing his religion because it is his right and his right only.
God give us free will. Whether we want to be in this religion or that religion, or not in any religion, the choice is on us. Complaining about someone changing religion like arguing with God about why He gave human free will.
Sounds like a fabrication... One made to draw followers to christianity, not for the people, for the church.
Thanks for sharing aka-dj. It's easy for the naysayers to dismiss as a fabrication because otherwise they would be challenged to reconsider their positions.
Now that you pointed it out, how do you know it is not a fabrication?
I would say it was unlikely. What has the man to gain from making it up? Money, fame, a sense of superiority for fooling people with lies? He has a lot to lose for sharing this event; potential persecution, alienation from family.
Why do you assume that any experience of God is a fabrication? If the scientific community dismissed out of hand any occurances that were alien to them, we would still be living in the middle ages.
It was not me but you who used fabrication first. Though I saw the video such a thought didn't enter my mind, if it had I would've said it before you.
As you told about god, we have so many incidence of fabrication before and there is no god, so mostly miracles are just lame explanations.
It was mishieviousme who suggested fabrication first.
I didn't notice.
Again, why a Muslim Imam is chosen for the miracle while there are thousands of faithful christians with the same affliction. May be Mr. Jesus is bored or was trying to convert Ethiopians only, or the Christians are ingrate not to come out with the healing they got.
Exactly a sinful muslim sees god while thousads of faithful cry for this opportunity everyday......mm..maybe it was satan in the form of Jesus..
or maybe its a cock and bull story.. where is the proof and even if its true ..so what??
youtube offers videos or angels and aliens sighted etc. so should we believe all?
get a life people.
It just goes to show the type of easily swayed and manipulated people that join religions.
Did you watch the video?
It was ANYTHING but easy a conversion.
If you know anything about the Muslim faith, converting to Christianity (or just away from Islam) is a lot harder (for them) than you give credit to.
I think that depends on where you live. Some places in the US it is hard not to be a christian too.
Religion at its best.
Not even with a shotgun from the back of a pickup?
You sure about that?
They used to, but now we have "man made" laws that don't allow "good Christians" to kill people for not being "good Christians".
Yes, it's true. It depend from where you live. My country hold the biggest Muslim community in the world and many had converted because marriage, insight and every reason they could find. But no killing ever happened.
That's good to know.
Sadly, that's not the case in many other countries.
killing and peace happened in every community. the problem is in the human mind and human mind only.
Indonesia seems to be a relatively sane country.
"The government in Indonesia - the country with the world's largest Muslim population - generally respected religious freedom, according to the report, but in some instances failed to protect persons from religious discrimination and abuse.
It cited reporting from a nongovernmental organization that there were more than 50 attacks against members of the Muslim Ahmadiyah sect during 2010 and more than 75 attacks against Christians."
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011 … tan-indone
Well, like I told you. this is the human's mind problem. Stupidity and ignorant is everywhere.
While people said they are religious, they following blindly, not to the teaching of religion, but to the leaders which are human being. They didn't care to learning by themselves about their own religion and believing only what their teachers told them. This is indeed, the biggest problem in my community. 'THINK!', Allah told them. But no, they refused to do that.
As the result, when they see something not right in their opinion, fear claimed their hearts and since they didn't want to think, it control them. together, fears turned into rage and resulted these awful incidents.
Aren't this kind of problems happened a lot there too? Killing Afghan, killing Iraqi, long ago, killing Indian.
aquasilver - 7624 hate crimes took place in the USA, in 2007 alone, mostly against African Americans. I don't know how you will defend the sanity here.
http://www.teamwmi.org/educational-info … -by-group/
Human mind, indeed.
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"
Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
My, my, TM, you are a multi faith serial abuser, I'm impressed!
Mind you, the Muslims may not be as forgiving as we Christians are...
They are just a couple of hundred years behind. We forced you Christians to stop murdering witches and atheists - as we will force the Muslims to follow secular laws also at some point. I would be impressed if it had not taken laws and wars to force you guys to become "forgiving."
'We'.. I had no idea you were so old Mark, nor that atheism had anything to do with Christianity not killing witches, or 'atheists' for that matter, ironically I cannot find any atheists who were killed by the church.
Atheist martyrs seems like an oxymoron in fact!
I agree that denying atheists parliamentary representation until 1886 was extreme, but as women and the landless were also denied a vote, and atheists would have been a much smaller number than either of those groups, I guess not many atheists were inconvenienced, anyhow, although it was not my doing, apologies that you could not vote in 1886... did you personally get inconvenienced by that?
I have not, and as landless artisans my family would undoubtedly been denied the vote also, especially as at that time I think we were still Irish Catholics and had only recently emigrated to England.
What laws or wars are you stating that atheists undertook or forced to the statute books that stopped all this horrendous killing...?
Incidentally, it appears that witch-hunts ceased in the 17th century, so I feel content that we Christians born in the 20th century are not really able to be blamed for it, but I guess you need to use any issue you can to attack believers.
Apparently between 40,000 - 50,000 were killed, which is terrible, and the then church was obviously not acting from Christ's principals, however it is small to insignificant compared to Stalin, an atheist, who killed 60 million folk.... just saying.
Which army of atheists marched on Stalin to stop the slaughter?
I do wish you luck with stopping the Muslims from doing what they continue to do to this day, actually the Muslims seem to be about 300 years behind us Christians in the forgiveness stakes, but then they don't have Christ and forgiveness, as TM's Quoran quotes illustrated.
Any idea how you atheists are going to stop them?
I suggest you get as many atheists as you can find together and go to Saudi Arabia or Tehran and do a mass protest in their cities, they will be cowed by your numbers and no doubt see the error of their ways... or they will kill you all as infidels, either way you will have proved your point about atheists being THE only people that cares about bad things happening.
I would organise a donation drive to help you guys get over there, and you really should do it, because Islam really does still kill atheists, even if Christianity never has.
You must stop it now, I can see how perturbed you are!
Perturbed? How so?
Sorry your knowledge of history is so poor, but it was not so long ago that to deny the Holy Spirit was a death sentence in most of Europe. Still - I expect they were not "real," christians?
Still - you moved to a country where homosexuality is illegal so I guess you are more comfortable with majik books defining secular laws than I am.
Really? Quoting a set of scriptures is abuse? I'll remember that the next time YOU quote scriptures.
Yes, we can see just how "forgiving" you are...
millions of Hindus slaughtered when the Muslims conquered India...as per [9:11-12] and [4:89]......entire towns were raised , hundreds of thousands of women, men and children sold into slavery.
You're right! There is absolutely no way the producers of this video would fake any of this, or lie, or create this story out of whole cloth. Why would they?
Thanks aka-dj for posting this.
I watched this video and......... find it still hasn't changed my opinion or belief.
Now how do I get my 5 minutes back?
Apply to head office and detail your complaint, it will be attended to by one of Gods operatives and investigated fully.*
Once the investigation has been completed, and if your complaint is upheld, the five minutes will be added to the end of your life.
We find this time most valuable for folk to reconsider what they have believed true.
May you use your time wisely.
You are never more than a prayer away....
*Your business is important to us and we hope you are satisfied with this reply, we at God Inc are customer service orientated and all requests, complaints and points of contact are dealt with in real time.
Still there are two major inconsistencies with this vid.
Unknown translator on the audio, that may be any language being spoken.
Secondly, if the former imam has AIDS, then didn't have AIDS, he would become the pin cushion for testing by about every expert trying to find a cure for AIDS.
If he was miraculously healed, what exactly would they find in his system that would be of any use? Antibodies?
He was tested, and there were NO signs of the desease. No signs, means, well you know..nothing there.
That's the problem with miracles, no possible independent proof he had the disease in the first place. No independent proof he was 'cured'.
Please, before you retort. I get it, you won't need to postulate the lowest common denominator to attempt to explain to me, thankyou.
How do you know there was no desease, or independent report?
Were you there when he said he was sick with aids?
Were you there when he was re-tested, as he said he was?
No-one is forcing you to believe. It's a video that talks about one man's experience, miracle and conversion as a result.
I mean, it's his story, not a PhD for submission to peers.
This is mind-boggling. Just go ahead and explain away REALITY by invoking magic. This is intellectual dishonesty.
It appears that word would also apply to your statement above, and your ridiculous, imaginary God--which is disturbingly unintelligent.
It's funny how believers can dismiss serious sensible observations as mere trite, but accept the most stupid, most childish explanations as the absolute truth.
I hope the cognitive dissonance doesn't bother you.
Apparently there was no miracle performed, and all we have are Christians lying to support their childish, untrue beliefs. How desperate.
Really? We're you there? Did you interview his friends before and after? Have you seen the medical records?
No thought not. You dismiss with ignorance.
Why would I need to be there?
The laws of nature cannot be violated, hence it is not ignorance that prompts me to dismiss nonsense such as miracles. Of course you are free to be as naive and gullible as you wish. How absurd.
Now, that is an interesting response, believers actually using the very same argument that can so easily be used against them. Priceless!
Do you know this guy?
Were you there?
Did you TEST the claim?
You make some absurd claims from a limited perspective.
Do they kill you for getting the spelling wrong as well, or only for leaving their faith?
Calm down, i was only correcting the spelling. No need to be sarcastic.
Wikipedia "A Muslim, also spelled Moslem, is an adherent of Islam, . . . "
Also, "When Baby Boomers were children it was Moslem. The American Heritage Dictionary (1992) noted,"Moslem is the form predominantly preferred in journalism and popular usage. Muslim is preferred by scholars and by English-speaking adherents of Islam." No more. Now, almost everybody uses Muslim." http://hnn.us/articles/524.html.
It does clarify some differences that Muslims make, but given the setting here, it does not apply.
It could have been used either way in this case, meaning the same thing.
However, considering the context of the thread, perhaps Moslem would indeed be a better application.
Peace It had been a day of dealing with fools!
Passive/aggressive to a fault. This is why your religion causes so much ill will and hate.
I expect you will start telling us how much you love and respect us again. Then back to backhanded insults once more.
Fools who won't listen to your threats. Then it turns out your threats are empty and you actually believe you get another chance when you are dead.
No need to make a choice before it is too late! then?
That's an oxymoron Mark of course we need to make our decision before it is too late! errrr.... to late is too late!
I just stated that, outside of scriptural evidence I SUSPECTED that there may be a period of non locality when we are able to review our lives.
Of course this is just a suspicion, not even a belief, maybe more a hope that there may be some chance...
But equally it could be the point when those who do NOT qualify for spending eternity with God FINALLY accept, and even agree, that they decided wrongly and are guilty as charged.
As for burning in hell, I also covered that recently, and intend to cover it in a hub when I have time, but you know that the burning in hell scenario is a stick you use, not me.
I just don't chase sticks any longer.
Here's a less severe consequence of being/becoming a Christian within a Moslem community!
http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/10909 … -christian
A religion of peace, indeed!
I heard klu klux clan still exist until now.
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk/int … p;item=KKK
are they the sign of peace?
Look deep inside your own community before you start pointing your finger to another community. You can't judge one religion by behaviour several of their members. Blaming, hating, discriminating and killing already happened too often since the beginning of religions. This kind of forum only put more salt into the wound. Isn't we have enough already?
this link bellow have it's point.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/chris … ations.htm
We need better way to help each other: religious and non religious people, can we sit together and think a better way to make this world better place than just pointing our finger to each other?
aka-dj- The article does not mention about anyone killed for leaving the religion or blasphemy in Pakistan. Anyways; this is for you to find out, how many were convicted under the blasphemy law up till now.
I did say "less severe".
That means not killed, but certainly discriminated against!
How badly are Muslim Pakistanis treated in host countries they move to?
aka-dj: The credit goes to the international media who create sensation out of such stories. The fact is that Christians live as freely in Pakistan as Muslims live in the west, infect here we don't have the homeland security dept. to spy over and harass Christians or to arrest them such that they don't have the right to bail etc.
pity on this imam...leaving one illusion and entering another doesnot solve anything...
You are right, pisean. His decision will never solve anything because the problem lay there in his behaviours.
@aka-dj thats why i said i wish he lives for another 30 yrs ...imam changed his minds once and he can change it and see for himself...he thinks it solved his problem...
It DID solve his problems.
Why would you want to take that away?
To be like you?
Bit selfish, don't you think!
@aka-dj nope...totally selfless without any agenda like normal believers of christ have...
i want him to get beyond external illusion/beliefs/figures like christ or hussein or muhammad or moses and get to source of what solved his problem...
And that would be JESUS CHRIST.
Who else could have solved his AIDS problem?
Maybe jomine? He's a doctor, or surgeon or something!
@aka-dj or that would be hussein or shiva or anyone...name is not important...there have been miracle stories all across the globe...u can search and read yourself...not every story had jesus behind it....we had a saudi girl few months back on hubpages...she shared few miracle stories where muhammad was involved....so figure is least important out here....problem is we are too focused on figures which are not important...
He may have a mutation that helped his body to produce antibodies, it's happened before and there are documented cases of such occurances. Where's your proof to support your Jesus theory?
@mis exactly....and also this is not first story of miracle...if we view world wide miracle stories , figure varies in those stories...that proves that figures are never important...it is something to do with human brain than to anything else...if jesus was sole figure in all stories it would have been different thing but since we have so many different figures , it says something else...
It says that christians may intentionaly be in denial... For instance; If I went to school and they gave me rational, logical information and then went to church on Sunday, only to throw ot what I'd learned in school, would be intentionaly limiting any educational value in either mindset. A belief without brains, is a belief wasted on naivetay.
aquasilver: And the population of Indonesia is 237 million.
Agreed, and I live in Malaysia, another peaceful and tolerant Islamic state, and do business with Indonesia, and love the people, so I am NOT being aggressive, America is in a vile state, and I make no excuse.
But equally, as a Christian in a Muslim country, I am forbidden by law to speak about Christ to any 'bumi putra' and would be arrested if I did, unless they ask me first, and even then I could be arrested.
Is that tolerance?
I agree that this world really needs tolerance. When hurting the feelings of another religion and disrespecting their religious figures is called freedom of expression, there is little chance but lets hope for the best.
@arsha violence in name of sentiments getting hurt must be condemned and those who turn violent in name of any faith must be hold to task...if somebody feels hurt , court is there...none has right to be violent in name of faith...in end we have 400 faiths...all faiths are equal in rule of law...now somebody can get hurt by some expression...we cant allow anyone to use violent means in name of hurt..
Maybe this is your idea of tolerance?
I agree but hate breeds violence and anything that breads hate must be avoided in order to promote harmony. Anyone who holds the law in his hands is wrong but even laws should be such that it controls hate mongers. I think that the state should play its role in creating an atmosphere where minorities do not feel scared or targeted and that goes for all countries.
@arshad one must be free to express...but if someone has problem with that expression , he/she must be made civilized to go to court...if person is not civilized enough , religion has failed ...
christ might be god for christian but he is common man for atheist and other faiths barring islam...in same way muhammad may be prophet for muslims but for rest he is common man...one can express what one thinks of christ or muhammad or any....if someone feels hurt from that , he/she reserves only one right and that is approaching court...coming to street and burning public property or making threats must be booked severely...
When we were kids, hurting someone's feelings by making a mock of the person or his loved one's, was considered 'bullying'. I don't know why when we grew up it became 'freedom of expression'. And I am talking about hurting someone's feelings not forcing someone to follow your religion. I feel respecting people and their religious figures is not that bad idea if we like to promote harmony and peace in this World. Having said that-- I respect your right to disagree with me.
@arshad u r missing the point....drawing prophet photo is bullying?....bullying is not allowing some one to draw photo....bullying is not allowing people to express what they think about prophets or god or gods etc....
my point is simple...if x draws muhammad's photo , it is his/her right to express...if y or z feels hurt it is y or z's right to appeal to court...matter ends...
violence on street , threatening artist etc should be dealt strictly by law....people should not be allowed to bring out their cave ways in name of religion....we dont live in 7th century or 1st century or 1000 bc...we live in era where we have courts in place world over...
pisean-- I agree that y should go to the court and may be the court would make x understand that drawing the picture of Muhammad is not liked by y so, it would be better if x abstains from any act that is hurting the feelings of y. I think the word is sadist used for people who find pleasure in hurting other people's feeling for nothing.
If you are to be hurt by such taunts either you are immature or you have something to hide. Don't blame the mirror if the face is bad.
@arshad it is not being sadist , it is being creative and expressing one's fundamental right....fundamental right doesnot include threats , killing and violence....other than that religious person reserves right to sue , to protest,to object, to write counter articles etc....but none has right in name of prophet or god or any one to threaten,kill or destroy public property....
So, what am I doing here, am I not protesting through arguments and dialog? I feel that provoking violence should not come under fundamental rights and people should realize that something that is not necessary and on the contrary is damaging love, peace and harmony should not be called fundamental rights. But off-course these are my views which I like to put across through dialog. You may agree or disagree.
If our intentions are to create peace, we should try to understand each other and avoid "unnecessary" actions that could damage harmony.
@arshad drawing muhammad doesnot provoke violence...does it?...what provokes violence is misunderstanding religion...it is not job of people to judge others...if person is religious , he/she believes it is gods job...let god judge...who are u and me to do that?....if i believe drawing a man who lived in 7th century hurts me , well i can file complain...thats it...full stop...coming to streets burning public property is barbaric act...it is total failure of understanding of religion...
Does it apply only to the major religious beliefs or all? My religion says sun is god and you are hurting my feelings when you say sun is just a star and similar to a hydrogen bomb and is lifeless material thing. So to stop hurting my feelings please stop saying sun is just a star and please stop teaching that in schools.
ya and when someone says jesus in only way , it hurts feelings of other faiths...when some one says yaweh is only god , it hurts feelings of others , when some one says allah is only god and muhammad is seal of prophet , that hurts feelings of others...
For the doubters, and sceptics. (edit; doubters of Islam killing converts)
Here's another story for you.
http://www.godvine.com/Woman-Gets-Sente … th-87.html
Are you so desperate and your god so foolish to find some idiotic people to prove his mettle and talk for him?
Just watch the video!
Stop being so trivial and boring.
It's a cnn story, on godvine.
I've too much use for my time to waste on fools.
That's a LIE. :cool;
You can't resist chatting (?) with me and many like me.
All fools. Every one of us.
Now, be gone from this place!!!
If you are speaking for your lot, then I wholeheartedly agree.
But I missed the word abject from that post and should have added liars to make a distinction of celebrity fools from common fools..
I like to go to zoo to see animals but certainly do not want go to the wild for the same.
aka-dj-- I know you post such news items considering it as a social service to stop injustice in Pakistan. I just like to inform you that the video has twisted the blasphemy law saying that whoever defies Prophet Muhammad commits a crime-- when it is that who ever insults Muhammad, Jesus, Jacob or any other prophet he should be punished.
But very few people know that this law is there for more than two decades in Pakistan. It was added into the constitution by the late President Zia-ul-Haq but nobody, I repeat nobody has been put to death for this law up till now. It was probably made to work as a deterrent so that no group uses abusive language against each other in a multi-religious country like Pakistan.
Even the case against this woman in this video may be totally fabricated but in Pakistan such things are very common. Since it was against a Christian, it got international attention.
Why go to another's temple and eat of their offering? Would that not make one a heathon? If I taste of another's feast without invitation, have I not commited a "sin"? Have we fallen so far as a species, as to hate those words of other men?
So, what you are saying is that NEVER is a Christian believer shunned, rejected, hated, attacked, abused, threatened or jailed in Pakistan?
I find that claim more sensational than saying it's media hype!
No; I am saying that the frequency is not any different than what is happening in the west against Muslims or other minorities.
Just rephrase your question and tell me that did any such incident never happened to Muslims out of the 7624 hate crimes that take place annually in the USA?
I was just telling that Pakistan is infect being targeted and the statistics tell a different story then the media sensations.
By the way I am posting the Amnesty International Report about mistreatment of Muslims in Europe. All I say that instead of arguing, we should try to prove our point through reports of esteemed organizations.
http://www.iengage.org.uk/component/con … -in-europe
@arshad europe is far far better dude...where in world u can see posting of banner likes 'Islam would rule world' , death to denmark etc and govt tolerating....just imagine having banner in saudi calling 'Christianity would rule the world' , death to saudi etc and govt tolerate it?
This is one example but Saudi Arabian forces are not involved in any combat in any Christian country. So, there is not everything bad about even Saudi Arabia but I agree they should allow banners.
@arshad to go for combat one needs strength...since time of umar , muslims didnt do only combat , they invaded countries...didnt they?
coming to saudi , they dont even allow churches to be formed...
Yes; I know that before the world became civilized, there was a race to occupy more and more land, otherwise the other colonial power would do that and may threaten your existence. But in today's civilized world, how could you apply the 7th century trend.
@arshad exactly...thats the whole point...current civilized values include freedom of expression , democracy , right to criticize , right to choose...condemning any form of violence in name of any faith , separating church and governance....we cant apply trends of 7th century in todays world...
Ask the citizens of invaded countries if they agree with you regarding the freedom of expression, free democracy not under invaded forces, right to rule themselves without foreign influence.... Regarding separating church from government-- is your free choice some nation might like to include it. Imposing your will on others is not what civilization is all about-- people should have the right to choose. We can't tell anyone to choose any color as long as it is blue.
@arshad agreed...people should have right to choose...and one of choice can be critizing religious head , prophets , gods without being threatened...it should freedom to choose and live life as per ones own stds...
.mixing church and governance doesn't guarantee it...one cant choose if one has laws like blasphemy or is governed by 7th century stds...
coming to invaded countries , agreed...no one likes invasion , be it be invasion by umar in persia or by usa in iraq...
But if someone feels that they have the right to define civilization in their own way-- that creates problems and conflicts. Every nation should be left on its own to decide what is good for them. Imposing one's values over the other and then the other offers resistance, making it a justification to attack and invade does not seem like civilization to me.
@arshad u have valid point here...i agree with u on this...i cant dictate how saudi should behave....agree with that...in same way saudi or iran cant dictate whether prophet's cartoons must be drawn in other country or not...it is value of that country...one must not impose their beliefs or books or interpretation on others..
I don't support the Iranian verdict but lets put the record straight, the Iranians did not use the military in this regard. It was a verbal verdict and does not mean that it would justify an attack over Iran. If we become so trigger friendly then I don't think this world would be a safe place to live.
I have no problem, Iran having nukes, israel has them , and has a much, much more powerful military than Iran. a usual the americans and the EU are making life difficult for the rest of us, do they seriuosly think , sanctions are going to have any impact on the Iranians, they will get the bomb anyway, not two years from now but four, five years from now. If the west had to play an honest role in the middle east , we would not have these problems[this impacts me directly..high fuel costs:)]
i dont see a solution to this problem at all....
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