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Are you a Theist or a Gnostic? Are you Atheist or Agnostic?

  1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago

    For those who are believers...Are you a theist or gnostic? Do you believe in God (Theist) or do you know there is a God (Gnostic)

    For those who don't believe...Same question but with the "A"...smile

    Just curious of responses...As many claim to know the "truth", I am curious how it can be "truth" unless you have knowledge...And having knowledge of God would by definition make one a Gnostic. Belief in God, but no knowledge would make one a Thiest, And lack of belief or knowledge would make one Atheist or Agnostic.

    Thoughts, Opinions or Facts (as we know them)

    1. profile image0
      jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What is "knowledge"?
      We cannot "believe" or "know" god. We can only explain its presence(assuming god = creator). If there is no need for a 'creation', then there is no god, that is all. No belief, nor knowledge.

      1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
        DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I am not attempting to define what is "knowledge" for the person...I am only curious as to what their true "title" would be based on belief, knowledge or lack thereof...

        God doesn't HAVE to be a creator....Maybe There is a God and "creation" just kinda happened...

        1. profile image0
          jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          As far as I'm aware, Knowledge is the ability to predict future based on past experience and belief is the confidence we have that a past event occurred(or the confidence we place in the correctness of a statement), either of it has nothing to do with god.
          We can only assume the past, so we have to assume a beginning, which is not possible. And god to need to exist and god cannot self create either, so there is no event called 'creation'. And you are taking out 'creator' from god. Then what is 'god'?

          1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
            DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Hmm..Let me use personal examples for a response..

            I have knowledge of how to play a guitar...I learned a long time ago...And I know that if I pick it up tomorrow I will still be able to play one...
            Based on the simularity of the instruments...I believe I can also play a Ukelele, but I am not sure until I make the attempt...once that happens I will have knowledge as to if I can or cannot play the Ukelele.

            As far as God and Creation...I am not taking out anything...I am only saying that you don't need one for the other...

            And there have been many "Gods" throughout history who never "Created" anything...They just ruled over certain aspects of nature, emotions, life and other things along those lines...(Think Greek Gods)

            What or who I think God is or isn't doesn't matter to anyone but me...

            What is God to you (no need to answer publicly) is what matters to you...If you think God is real...Then to you God is real...If you think God is a myth...Then God is a myth to you...It doesn't matter to me either way, until you start infringing on others rights...

            1. profile image0
              jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I'm understanding you somewhat, but I still got doubts?
              Is knowing 'god' same as 'playing' an instrument? One is a noun and the other verb. You are sure you 'know' how to play guitar from past experience.
              Regarding the gods, the greek gods are just like kings so can kings be called god. Now we know no other person can control ones emotions

              1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                "Knowing" God is the same and "knowing" how to play guitar, not "knowing" God is the same as "playing" Guitar. And seeing as I know that I started playing guitar at 8 years old and I am much, much older than that now...I would lean towards a past experience...

                You are correct about the word God... It also means, Lord, King, Ruler, and many other things of a "Royal" nature...And I was refering to the stories of Gods and their deeds or what they controlled...not that it was true or false...

                1. profile image0
                  jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry for troubling you again.
                  You said from your past experience you can predict you can play guitar. So when you try next time you knew you can play. About Ukelele you are not predicting but guessing. So how do you apply it to god?

                  1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    The comparision is nothing more than an explanation of Gnostic and Theist...smile

                    Knowing I can play guitar is Gnostic (if playing guitar is "God")

                    And believing I can play a Ukelele is Theist (If playing Ukelele is "God")

    2. aguasilver profile image87
      aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What a brilliant question to forum topic! smile

      By your guidelines I would be Gnostic, though in orthodox 'Christian speak' that word has negative connotations, so I would never normally attach it to myself, in my circles, for to do so would be to veer towards what orthodoxy terms heresy.

      I KNOW God (and more importantly know He knows me) exists because there have been significant instances when He has spoken to me, in the spirit, and even held me trapped on the floor whilst He explained something of significance, on one occasion.

      I have also witnessed His power in action, which makes it difficult to doubt Him.

      But I would prefer to say that I would tag myself 'theist' because despite 20 years of experience with God, I will accept that until I die, I cannot KNOW for sure that my belief is grounded on fact.

      Nevertheless, I stake my eternal existence on knowing God and that I am correct in my beliefs, as we all do.

      We all start as atheists to a degree, and I agree that when we are born very few babies hold religious convictions. We are induced later into our societies beliefs, whatever they are.

      But equally at some point those with enquiring minds will ask the questions that allow them to determine what they truly believe, or disbelieve.

      My quest lead me to Christ, and by revelation to God.

      I am convinced that anyone truly seeking God, will find God, just as someone truly seeking not to find God will find nothing.

      1. profile image0
        jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Do you understand what you are writing? Seek is an attempt to find. One can only attempt to find or not attempt, that is, one can seek something or not seek, not 'seek not to find something'.

        1. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Of course you can, if you set out looking to find nothing, i.e. in your mind you are seeking to confirm what you want to believe, then you will not find anything to dissuade you.

          I ran from God for two years, did all I could to evade the issue, and finally found Him when I started to read the bible with an intention of PROVING that it was not true.

          I never set out to find God, I set out to find reasons to continue not believing in Him, but I was (and am) open and honest enough to accept that I was wrong.

          You set out to confirm that the world is black and white with no hues in between, you found what you sought, and stopped looking. That was YOUR choice, and unless you open you mind to colour, you will stay colour blind.

          1. profile image0
            jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Again wishwash!

            1. aguasilver profile image87
              aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Again avoidance....

              1. profile image0
                jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I'm tired of showing you all logical fallacies which you cannot comprehend. I don't like idiots, honestly. So I'll reply one last time.
                "if you set out looking to find nothing"
                If you go seeking to find Loch Ness Monster, you should have an idea, what it is first. You cannot simply go and say the first thing you come across as Loch Ness monster. So what were you seeking, when you were seeking 'god'?
                You cannot look to find nothing. "Nothing" is not a thing to find out. Either you seek or don't seek.
                "I ran from God for two years, did all I could to evade the issue,'
                Again, Before running away or towards "god" you have to first identify this thing. You already made up your mind that there is this thing called god.Then you made up your mind that "bible" is the word of god.
                So you started out with this two premises
                1. There is god
                2. Bible is gods word.
                Conclusion: god exist
                So your conclusion is invalid because the your conclusion and premise are the same.. And without knowing what this god thing is, how can you whether it is there or not? So if yo do not know what it is, how can you say it wrote a book?
                "with an intention of PROVING'
                Proof is an opinion and as with all opinion changes with person. What you are saying is "in my opinion there is god, hence there is god" That is not logic.
                "You set out to confirm that the world is black and white with no hues"
                I have not set out to confirm anything. Because you cannot understand anything you think others are just like you.
                "open and honest enough to accept that I was wrong"
                That makes you a liar. An open minded person does not set out to enquire by forming conclusion first.
                "Take the blinkers off, get to have an inner peace, and ask sincerely, that's all."
                Just because you have mental troubles does not mean anybody else have.

                1. aguasilver profile image87
                  aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh Jomine....

                  I believe in God because I have experienced, and seen the evidence of His existence, and the evidence of His works in my life.

                  Nothing you can say will let me ignore what I have experienced and see daily.

                  I have no axe to grind with you that you cannot see and experienced what I have, that is your situation, and you may well live with that for the duration of your life.

                  It happens, we know that for not ALL are saved, some by their life choices miss that.

                  I really think that we have exhausted this discussion.

                  I care not one jot about your slurs and insults to my 'intelligence' and that you call me a liar, but it does not strengthen your claims, it simply shows that you cannot contemplate a world different from the one you have chosen to be in, and attack me because you cannot allow the thoughts that I may be correct.

                  I am 100% secure in my faith and belief in God and that I have made the right decision.

                  I am delighted that YOU have made a decision that you are 100% assured is the correct one.

                  Go in peace.

                  1. profile image0
                    jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I too think we have exhausted the discussion. Experience is subjective, and the conclusion is subjective. One escaping from drowning is god's work for some and mere luck for others. Experience doesn't show much. And if you care to study a little deeper into the scientific  article you provided, you find that our brain can really make up stories for missing episodes in life(it is not consciously done).


                    I see the world as it is and define my terms that I'm not confused. The world is same for us. You are using the terms belief, exist etc without clearly understanding the terms and mix your hopes and wishes to color the world you see and then interpret the colored image as the fact, though it is you who colored it. Correct or wrong is subjective, while logic and reason is not.

                  2. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                    Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Jomine actually raised a very fundamental point. If you are going to "run away from god" then you must have already decided that he existed otherwise you wouldn't have anything to run away from would you?

      2. Claire Evans profile image89
        Claire Evansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "But I would prefer to say that I would tag myself 'theist' because despite 20 years of experience with God, I will accept that until I die, I cannot KNOW for sure that my belief is grounded on fact."

        What do you mean by that? Are you saying you aren't 100% sure Jesus rose from the dead and saved us sin.  If this is true, then you mustn't be a Christian.  A Christian knows 100% as fact.  Experience with God makes one 100% sure.

        1. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Claire, I am 100% sure that Christ is who He says He is, and that His sacrifice was sufficient to defeat death and all powers and authorities who seek to destroy us.

          But the PROOF of that will be when I die, and when I face our Lord, and hopefully hear "well done my true and faithful servant"

          My life is one of constant evidence of Christ and the Holy Spirit being presented to me in my life, daily, hourly, each minute, and I work these forums when time permits to ensure that the message goes out loud and clearly.

          If you saw my words as lacking clarity, it is only because our detractors are pedants to a man, and look for words to use in attacks, so I was being factual from a world perspective, in order to deny them ammunition.

          They were also because I steer clear from the label 'gnostic' as it has negative connotations in orthodox Christian circles.

          Hope that explains things.


          http://www.buffaloridgebaptist.org/images/button_100sure.jpg

          I AM

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Then, you should be banned for doing so, based on the fact this is a public forum for discussion, not a mission field to evangelize your faith.



            The more often you post that, the more childish and immature you appear and give good reason to be banned for spamming.

            1. aguasilver profile image87
              aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yipes TM, I never realised you were getting so upset!

              Go ahead, get me banned if it makes you life simpler, sorry that you cannot take the heat.

              Guess you are actually NOT 100% sure you are right?

              My current 'logo' is no different to Randy's little snake logo, wanna ban him also?

              Or is it that 100% sign which is riling you up, making folk think about their decisions is obviously not conducive to your trite posts or objectives.

          2. Claire Evans profile image89
            Claire Evansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I appreciate your comment but why do you say the proof will come when you die? Haven't you got the proof now? Isn't the Holy Spirit the proof one needs? How can you be 100% sure of your beliefs without proof?

            1. profile image0
              jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              He is not yet on drugs or ECT to have proof now...

      3. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
        Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So you lie in order to fit in with the clan?



        Gnostic...



        If you doubt your belief then you don't "know" it and therefore you don't truly believe it and if you don't truly believe it then you are not a theist.



        Sounds like you are gambling based on your opinion and not knowledge.



        Few babies??? lol were you one of them? Were you praying on the way out?



        It doesn't sound to me like you really believe in a god. You sound more like you just think that a god probably exists.

    3. kess profile image60
      kessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I am knowledge, and knowledge is only known as itself and cannot be defined by words. Thus the term Gnostic is irrelevant as a definition, but these things are most important to those who do not have knowledge.

      God is the entirety of Knowledge.

      Proof belong to ignorance, for the only proof of knowledge is knowledge itself, and the one who request to be given proof of knowledge is also admitting that knowledge is not with him.

      So as a man, I am knowledge, I am God and the only proof neccessary is that I am... And with such knowledge I am able discern Truth and to believe it.

      So you as a man will take that and define me as you will, but if you limit me, you also limit yourself and you would then seek out a limited definition of who you are.

    4. mischeviousme profile image59
      mischeviousmeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I don't know of any truth nor do I claim to. I have an understanding as to what I am percieving, but I can"t say I know anything.

    5. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      As Wilderness so succinctly and correctly sums up your question, perhaps, the question needs to be reworded.

      It is more relevant and understandable to not ask a non-believer if they believe in God but instead ask them what claims of theists they accept or reject, based on what Wilderness said, because that is the only thing theists have at their disposal to support their arguments.

    6. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
      Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I'm an agnostic atheist. You can also be a gnostic atheist. The two terms (gnosticism and theism) are not mutually exclusive.

    7. twosheds1 profile image60
      twosheds1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      There are no gods. My personal belief doesn't enter into it. No amount of wishful thinking on my part can make a difference.

  2. paradigmsearch profile image86
    paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

    I've never had a philosophical discussion with a scorpion before...

    1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Nor I with a Paradigm

      1. paradigmsearch profile image86
        paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The older I get, the less I know...

  3. lorlie6 profile image87
    lorlie6posted 5 years ago

    You both slay me!!! 
    Umm, I am neither a Scorpion or a Paradigm, I'm simply a woman who believes she fits into the category "Gnostic".  Though I have no 'KNOWLEDGE' of God, or of His existence per se, I have my own 'knowledge' that He is.  You know, 'is' as in 'exists'...
    BTW, DS, I think your authorscore is far too low for a thinker such as yourself-the way you express yourself in these forums at least, reveal quite the smart guy.  Hehe.  No, I really mean it, unless your hubs suck! lol

    And PS, nice to be in contact on Twitter, too!  Like that, I do!

    1. paradigmsearch profile image86
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      As do I. smile

      1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
        DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don't have a twitter account...Maybe one of these days...But it seems I have to many electronic leashes as it stands now..

    2. DoubleScorpion profile image86
      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Many thanks, Not sure if my hubs suck or not..LOL...I just write as I have time..

      And Personal Knowledge does count (at least as far as I am concerned) for the Gnostic types...smile

  4. wilderness profile image96
    wildernessposted 5 years ago

    No one that is truly honest with themselves can be either a gnostic or atheist by your definitions.  No one on earth has knowledge of the reality of God.

    1. lorlie6 profile image87
      lorlie6posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hi wilderness, I think I am truly honest with myself when calling myself a Gnostic.  Are you truly honest with yourself when you call yourself whatever you call yourself? 
      Sorry, I don't know what you call yourself, or maybe I don't remember...senior moment, perhaps.
      I make no claims to KNOW ANYTHING about the existence of God, I only have some sort of faith.  It's all so new, you see...

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Perhaps I am misunderstanding the OP.  As I read it Double Scorpion has defined gnostic as someone that KNOWS that God exists.  They don't just believe it (as you say you do) they know it as a fact.

        Now, that is not possible without either proof or very, very good evidence and neither is available to us at this time.  Were it different everyone in the world would know the same fact, just as we know the earth is a sphere and not a flat plane.

        By that definition, then, you would be a "theist" and not a "gnostic" and honest at the same time.

        Personally, I'm on the other end as an atheist; I don't believe in God's existence although I have no absolute knowledge either way.  I have always called that belief "agnostic" where the Scorpion seems to define it as "atheist".

        1. janesix profile image59
          janesixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Gnostic specifically means intuitive knowledge

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            To my way of thinking "intuitive knowledge" is an oxymoron.  It actually carries the same meaning as "belief" as there can be no knowledge without evidence or proof and the sole use of intuition as a path to knowledge denies sufficient evidence to claim knowledge.

            1. janesix profile image59
              janesixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Thats fine. Im just saying doublescorpion has the wrong definition.

              1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I guess that would depend on the dictionary used...<Shrug>

                1. janesix profile image59
                  janesixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I doubt there is a dictionary that says gnostic means anything other than esoteric, mystic, intuitive knowlege.

                  You're thread hinges on the correct definition, or it makes absolutely no sense.

                  1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this



                    This is what I get...
                    gnos·tic   /ˈnɒstɪk/ Show Spelled[nos-tik] Show IPA adjective Also, gnos·ti·cal. 1. pertaining to knowledge. 2. possessing knowledge, especially esoteric knowledge of spiritual matters.
                    Number one is pertaining to knowledge...
                    And what realm does God fall into if not "Spirtual, Esoteric,Mystic or Intuitive"?

            2. lorlie6 profile image87
              lorlie6posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              "Intuitive Knowledge" IS an oxymoron-never thought of that! lol

        2. DoubleScorpion profile image86
          DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          In the case of religion..."evidence" is kinda like beauty...It is in the eye of the beholder...



          I would tend to agree with the first part of this...I would lean more towards Theist with what was described....
          With you, I lean towards atheist...While you have no knowledge either way, you have chosen, based from the lack of knowledge/evidence or whatever you chose to call it, to not believe in a God. If you said something like "I have no knowledge of a God and therefore neither believe or disbelieve" I would lean towards agnostic...

          (Just my interpretations of the definitions of these words)

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            smile This becomes a matter of semantics.  I may be an agnostic, then, as I do not believe "there is no God" and I do not believe "there is a God".  That, to me, is the same as saying "I don't believe in God's existence" (from my post).  A lack of belief either way as I could just as well say "I don't believe" and end it there.

        3. lorlie6 profile image87
          lorlie6posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          wilderness, wow.  I think I agree with what you've said here, but I must get a shower in before I attend my church services this a.m.! lol  I will get back to you, though!
          Laurel

          1. lorlie6 profile image87
            lorlie6posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I'mmm Baaaack, wilderness,
            Okay well, after re-reading your post, other sources, etc., I think you are right-I would call myself a 'theist' since it does not imply proof or absolute knowledge. tsmog's got it right there in b&w, as you do.  He stated that in engineering when dealing with an unknown, there must be some 'givens' before concluding anything:

            "From this I reason that all four answers imply belief.
            A theist believes
            A gnostic believes and knows
            An agnostic believes they do not know
            An atheist believes and knows

            The question becomes not how but what?
            All wooden chairs are painted.
            the sky is blue
            the ground is hard

            Definition of the given comes into play or define God(s).
            Here the question becomes 'who' defines God(s).

            And, then, one may continue the struggle with;
            God(s) is (are)
            or"

            And you, my sweet, sound exactly like an agnostic/ambigu-antitheist/antitheist-are there such phrases? And if there aren't, well, I just made 'em up! lol-as you said, if I remember correctly. 

            I think I learned that in CHURCH this morning!! HAHAHA!  Actually, wilderness, I'm going to a place called Calvary Chapel here in Bishop which is extremely 'laid back' but is scripturally based.  I'm still not sure about all that-as I said, this is all so very new to me.  I was a true agnostic myself for most of my life.
            The only time I would have called myself a gnostic was when I was a little girl-and I believe most children see any religion in this manner.  Jesus was my heart and very real, he brought 'the little children unto me...' and he loved animals-which I do to this day!
            Bye for now! smile

    2. DoubleScorpion profile image86
      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Atheist is lack of belief, mostly due to lack of evidence...So someone true to themselves can in fact be atheist or theist..as well as agnostic...

      gnostic, well, that depends on what one would consider to be knowledge...

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Then I didn't get it right as I read agnostic as the knowledge there is no God just as gnostic is the knowledge there is a God.

  5. TheMagician profile image95
    TheMagicianposted 5 years ago

    Agnostic theist over here.
    I definitely think there's a God, but I don't know for sure and am open to ideas smile

    1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Agnostic Theist...Interesting take...

      So you have no knowledge (per se) of God, But you believe there is one( for your own reasons)...

    2. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yes I think that description suits me too. I believe because I have a gut sense that God does exist and try as I might I cannot deny that gut sense that He exists.


      Also by a philosophical argument, the idea that the universe created such a wonderful thing as man who can observe and wonder at the universe, but that universe is ignorant of man's existence, makes no sense to me without  God. Such an exceedingly cruel thing for an ignorant universe to create a self aware being that knows one day he will perish with no trace of his ever being; it requires a God.

      But I have no proof.

    3. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
      Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Doesn't belief mean that you believe your belief is true? How can you be agnostic about something and also hold a belief about it?

  6. profile image0
    Emile Rposted 5 years ago

    There was a time in my life where I would have categorized myself as a gnostic. Slightly. But that was quite a while back and now I'm sure I'm simply agnostic.

    1. lorlie6 profile image87
      lorlie6posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Ah, lovely semantics-they are crazymaking, aren't they?  Get you every time! lol

    2. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What caused you to change from gnostic to agnostic?

      1. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Years without further evidence. Second guessing myself, I suppose.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image88
          Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I appreciate where you are coming from.

        2. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Agnostic is good... there is always the chance that you will see the evidence you need; to come to faith and be 100% sure of your position.

          I find it difficult to accept that an agnostic will be lost at the end of the day, because you don't deny God, you simply have not met Him yet. smile

          1. profile image0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I guess I should say 'thanks for the vote of confidence' but, I have to be brutally honest.

            I don't care what the theist or atheist thinks at the end of the day. All that matters is what I know to be true for me. Spirituality is the personal search. It isn't a team sport; nor does it require agreement across the board.

            1. aguasilver profile image87
              aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Agreed, we each need to decide for ourselves, and (from experience) having decided a church can be a lonely place if you are NOT a team player.

              I am not a team player either. smile

  7. Mathew James profile image80
    Mathew Jamesposted 5 years ago

    A good harvest is gathered into the barn only as a result of the natural action of earth, water, air and light. Humanity likewise has four elements - faith, hope, love, and knowledge.

    Faith is our earth, that in which we take root.
    Hope is the water through which we are nourished.
    Love is the air through which we grow.

    Knowledge is the light through which we ripen.

    1. mischeviousme profile image59
      mischeviousmeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What does one know, other than the words of men?

  8. tsmog profile image86
    tsmogposted 5 years ago

    OK, let's forget about God a second or two and look at what is asked, from the view I have.

    "For those who are believers...Are you a theist or gnostic? Do you believe in God (Theist) or do you know there is a God (Gnostic)"

    I believe I am conducting a discussion with the 'person' labeled DoubleScorpion. However, I do not know that to be true. Knowledge is not implied with belief.

    Now, let's say DoubleScorpion is sitting typing a response from my pc while I watch. Then, I would know a result of my senses or empirical knowledge. And, my attitude is generally speaking I believe what I know. Therefore, belief does not imply knowledge, but knowledge implies belief. Again, that point of knowledge in the example is dependent on evidence or verification.

    Digressing a moment, the question begins with 'those who are believers', which DoubleScorpion implies both a believer and a gnostic have belief.

    I do not fall into either of those categories. I  choose to accept and acknowledge. Here some may say faith enters into the picture. Then again, to believe a degree of faith also is entered upon. But, to know implies first a definition.

    In engineering to solve a problem or in science to discover an unknown there must first be given(s).

    From this I reason that all four answers imply belief.
    A theist believes
    A gnostic believes and knows
    An agnostic believes they do not know
    An atheist believes and knows

    The question becomes not how but what?
    All wooden chairs are painted.
    the sky is blue
    the ground is hard

    Definition of the given comes into play or define God(s).
    Here the question becomes 'who' defines God(s).

    And, then, one may continue the struggle with;
    God(s) is (are)
    or

  9. DoubleScorpion profile image86
    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago

    I honestly didn't think this would be a hard question...It seems a few are "nuking it".

    I was only curious as to how the Hubfolks in these religious forums actually label their "Beliefs" or "Knowledge"...

    There wasn't a right or wrong answer...smile

    1. Druid Dude profile image61
      Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I am a Gnostic.

      1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
        DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        smile I kinda figured that based for your postings..smile

        Thanks for the response.

  10. Druid Dude profile image61
    Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago

    God convinced me of his presence.  It wasn't easy...it took way longer than most people think it might.

  11. Bob Zermop profile image90
    Bob Zermopposted 5 years ago

    A skeptical atheist. I'm fairly certain I'm right ( so not agnostic), but I acknowledge I don't know I'm right. Not the same as not knowing though, as I do know, I'm just not completely certain in my knowledge.

    Wow, that barely makes sense even to me smile Hopefully, that's an answer to you question.

    1. aguasilver profile image87
      aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well at least it's honest!

      and you have until your dying day to get certain. smile

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Why is that agua? I thought you now think there is a chance to change your mind after you are dead.

        N'est pas?

        1. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No Mark, I said I SUSPECT and hope, not believe, and I certainly would not stake my eternity on it, we may just be energy like our other friend says, and return to God as either negative or positive energy, with the negative energy being stored away for eternity where it can do no harm.

          Not having died, I cannot say, and of course if I had died, I could not comment.

          Anyhow, my decision is made and secure, it's you guys we are addressing.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Not really agua.

            Interesting theory you have about the negative energy being stored away. Is this what you think happens to believers now?

            1. aguasilver profile image87
              aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              No Mark, actually nobody can say what happens in eternity, we have some pointers:

              Revelation 21:4
              God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither shall there be anguish (sorrow and mourning) nor grief nor pain any more, for the old conditions and the former order of things have passed away.

              Which sounds pretty good to me, and of course the ONLY way for that to work is apparent in the last line "for the old conditions and the former order of things have passed away" and I guess we will not remember those who are not present,or we would surely weep, or we will recognise their pure guilt for their absence, and accept it was a just decision made by God over a poor decision made by them.

              But the negative/positive energy thingy is a good analogy, or parable to use.

              I think it's the other guys though, my version just sees that we would return to God and spiritual conciousness, rather than an unknowing mass of energy ever unfolding and pouring over the universe.

              I like to see where I am going!

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                The negative energy thing certainly is funny.

                Odd you feel the need to shout warnings about something which you know absolutely nothing about.

                I thought you had a personal relationship with this majikal being - why is it that you run around warning us that we must make a choice before it is too late! and then it turns out you were actually not being truthful and you have zero idea what happens after you die?

                This is why your beliefs cause so much ill will agua.

                Still - if you think causing lots of arguments and ill will is "winning," I guess you have won. Congrats.

                1. aguasilver profile image87
                  aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I have a very clear idea about what scripture tells us happens after we die, however, applying your rules I have to say that I can only prove it when I die.

                  I have no doubts, you have no proof, I have a certainty, you cannot ever know until you die.

                  Yep, I guess we are finished, you are running out of repetitions and I am not playing fair by answer you.

                  Could be a long drinking session if we ever meet!

                  Edit:

                  BTW it's not about winning or losing, those words are metaphors only, it's about making the right decision, if you are wrong, that give me no satisfaction.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Metaphors? Odd - you certainly give the impression that winning and losing are very, very important to you.

                    I am not running out of anything. You have not answered at all. You just went all mealy mouthed when it applies to one of our pals.

                    Might want to think about why that is?

                    As for proving anything - well - you cannot even prove your Invisible Super Being exists - can you?

                  2. tsmog profile image86
                    tsmogposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Let me ask a question Aqua, if I may.

                    I person becomes a Christian through both confession and professing from my understanding, which could be wrong, of course. That said, the bible is presumed to be inerrant and 'God Breathed' when in the state of being a Christian. Then this must be true (Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness).

                    Since acceptance of the bible as inerrant is an on going debate  still unsettled within and amongst churches, then lets use the most recent Chicago Statement of Inerrancy http://www.theopedia.com/Chicago_Statem … _Inerrancy

                    Neither here nor there, the introduction of Paul's words in Colossians 3:3 specifically says, "For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." The logic says, the Christian, 'IS' dead! There is not a 'when.' There is only an 'IS.' Colossians is riddled with statements in this regard. It affirms it over and over.

                    Christ gave ONLY two commandments. Matt 22:36, focusing on the second - "And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

                    So, my question is are you being a good neighbor by extending an invitation or are just rebuking to rebuke? I see no righteousness with your assertions negating their integrity of their personal belief systems.

                    Just a note on history. The Christians lost the crusades. A suggestion is to read Colossians then Hebrews, then John1, John 2, and John 3 written by the same guy who wrote Revelations. A suggestion is to remember one cannot witness until called upon.

                    I ask your forgiveness for speaking out of turn. When I first came to the religion & philosophy forum it was full of ridicule and and for a lack of a better word - hatred toward atheist and vice versa. Not exactly loving. I have seen more tolerance with atheist of late - odd, not really.

                    I used to tell the employees I was in charge of to worry about their own star and let the others take care of their own. After all a gnostic, the one who knows, begins with a personal experience and builds a personal relationship with the Christ - since it is personal, who am I to judge, ever, (Matt 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged).

                    Again, I ask your forgiveness for speaking out of turn.

                    Tim

 
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