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Atheists, would proof of Jesus as the Son of God make you a Christian?

  1. Claire Evans profile image90
    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago

    Atheists often ask for proof of Jesus being the son of God.  If Jesus came to earth and everyone realized He is the son of God, would you still reject Him as your saviour?

    1. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      You say "If Jesus came to earth and everyone realized He is the son of God". 

      If that means Jesus comes to Earth and there was clear proof that he was, indeed the son of God, then of course atheists would not reject him. 

      Atheists are logical people who make their decisions based on evidence.  They are open-minded and ready to change their views on any topic, if provided with enough convincing evidence.  The only reason they don't believe in God is that there's a lack of convincing evidence. Provide the evidence and they'll change their minds at once.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I mean reject Him as their saviour.  There's a difference between rejecting Him as an unproven deity and rejecting Him because they don't want salvation.

        Wanting concrete evidence immediately insinuates that atheists truly don't want to go through a process to realize He is the son of God.  It really is a life-long thing to know the Holy Spirit.  Do they want to go through that effort? I ask atheists to pray for a revelation and they just say they won't. It insinuates they aren't serious about Jesus so why accept Him as a physical manifestation?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Why do you care about what other people believe? You are free to believe whatever nonsense you choose. And - it is nonsense.

          If Jesus could come and convince me I needed salvation and he could provide it - I would of course accept him.

          This is what you managed to miss from your nonsensical scenario of a mythical dead guy coming back by majik.

          He would also have to convince me his god was the biggest and baddest. Perhaps a Cage fight to the death (un-death) with Thor?

          He would also have to come up with some reasonable explanation for you guys. I mean - really - you are representative? lol

          So - your Invisible, Unnecessary Un-Dead Guy would have a lot of 'splainin' to do I'm afraid.

          Wanting concrete evidence means what again? No wonder your religion causes so many fights.

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            God 'splainin' everything to you? lol

            Cute.. sweety pie..

            He still loves you very much.

            smile

          2. Civil War Bob profile image61
            Civil War Bobposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Mark...Christians care what you believe because, in spite of their, shall we say, pugilistic presentations and combativeness based on needing to be "Right"...an answer to your question several scrolls down "Why do you feel the need?"...most of them really don't want to see you burning in the Hell that we believe in.  They also get frustrated in your opposition because most of them were seriously opposed to Christianity as some point and "identify" with you and fear the worst for you.

            1. Darrell Roberts profile image79
              Darrell Robertsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That is a really nice answer.

            2. jolinabetts profile image81
              jolinabettsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Good answer Bob!

              1. A Thousand Words profile image80
                A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                That's just like JenChristopherson is trying to warn us that Jesus is coming back on July 24th. Her convictions are just as strong, which is why she chose to share. Doesn't make it true.

              2. skye2day profile image86
                skye2dayposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Yes Bob great answer!

          3. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            And why do you care about what others believe? What are you doing here? I genuinely want to know the thoughts of atheists. Geez.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I just gave you the thoughts of an atheist. I don't care one whit what you believe as long as you keep it in your head where it belongs. wink

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I would be forced to keep it in my head if no one participated in the forums I started.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Gotcha. Not your fault. The only reason you started this thread was because people participated. lol

                  No one is trying to force you to do anything. Trying to get you to see reason? Yes.

              2. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Hmmm. Her mouth your property now? lol

                That was cute. "Shut up" with a twist eh?

                smile

                1. francineupert profile image61
                  francineupertposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  That would mean all Jews are not going to heaven because they believe he was a messiah not the son of God.
                  http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/in … 004AANtSzq

            2. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              If you really want to know what an atheist believes then I have several hubs that do that. Especially the last one. That goes for everyone who says they "care" about what we believe. Yet I doubt most of you Christians would really take the time to read our hubs, you are more interested in preaching to us.... As of that would do any good.

              1. 60
                junebugpac11posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Ok I am sure you have plenty to say and would like to know what you hub is so I can look at it I am not and athiest nor would I push religion on you but I would like to see what the athiest have to say.. I believe in what my life has brought me not what others can bring me but I do believe that there is a god of some sort.. I have not religion but I do believe in history and the bible is part of it..So if yo can send me a hub link to the thread..

            3. unitify profile image80
              unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I believe Jesus.  Yes, the bible was written by man and I hear that a lot.  But what book hasn't been written by man.  Put Jesus' words to the test.  Try it out for yourself and you will know that He is, FAITH FIRST THEN KNOWING.  Remember, God allows you to choose.  I know an atheist, very smart and set on her ways, I love her with all my heart. She raised me.  I pray that she will find found. Cause I can't bear never seeing her again, but my son is in heaven and I have to see him again. This is not an option for me.  Where he goes, I will follow.

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
                Kathryn L Hillposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I believe that too.  I also believe he can feel your love now.

                Some will think my belief is nothing but false hope. Let them think it. They are in the habit of allowing their thoughts to override a more subtle feedback system... their feelings.

        2. Marisa Wright profile image93
          Marisa Wrightposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You see,this is why atheists get annoyed with you.  Your answer makes no sense logically whatsoever, so it's impossible to debate the question with you. Sorry.

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            No need to apologize. She isn't chaining you to the thread. lol

            There are pleny of debaters around these parts, don't worry.

            Three words and I can have at least a quarter of them in this thread debating without end.

            smile

          2. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Then you must like illogical forums that annoy you.  What is logical about the supernatural? Wanting everything to be logical means one is putting a barrier between themselves and God.

            I am a logical person in other aspects of my life but I also know the supernatural world exists that is devoid of logic.  I have that evidence and it would be illogical for me to discount that proof.

            1. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I could easily debunk all your "supernatural illogical" evidence as something logical and natural and having nothing to do with god or ghosts or any sort of... Magic.

        3. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
          Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          What you want and what you are serious about is irrelevant when it comes to proof.

        4. artblack01 profile image81
          artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          What do you think the word atheist means? And why do you think an atheist would take such a request "for them to pray for something" seriously? If I ask you to pray to a different god for proof of it's existence or divinity, would you do that? Or maybe look for a pot of gold under a rainbow???? Seriously?
          We do not and will not pray to your imaginary friend, not even for the sake of argument.

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            They have to at least try and pray with a neutral stance may exist.  Preconceived ideas cannot allow God to reveal Himself to a person.  They have set up a barrier.  Jesus preached faith.  If I was interested in another god, and I could never be because I know the true God, praying would be an option for a revelation.  Doing nothing will guarantee no revelation.

            It's all about a person's will.  Do they or do they not want to find Christ? There's no in between.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Your delusion is not catching - sorry. It is a one way street. If you are so scared that you need the delusion - you will find it.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Sorry, then you aren't seeking God and so you will never find the evidence.  I notice you make a lot of assumptions.  What makes you think I have a faith based on fear? It's based on love.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Odd - you told us all about your night mares and night terrors which only went away when you started believing in the Jesus majik.

                  So - I am basing my assessment on your statements, not making an assumption.

                  God does not exist, therefore there is nothing to find outside your head. Odd that you even think this. Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly - shall I try again?

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You make out that is was Jesus Himself terrorizing me.  He delivered me from the Devil who was pushing me to the brink of suicidal thoughts because I was so terrified. 

                    A God who coerces worship from a person by terrorizing him/her by threatening them with hell is not worthy of worship.

            2. artblack01 profile image81
              artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That would only pertain to an agnostic and not an atheist. Why would someone give a chance to something they are 100% certain is fictional? Atheists, or at least people who claim to be, have no doubt to god being fictional. So again I ask. If I said something like, that wall is not real but you can only go through it if you run really really fast.... Would you do it?  That is how we feel about god and prayer. There is no neutral.
              And let me add that 90% or more of us atheists were raised Christian so as far as prayer goes, been there done that. Just like our imaginary friends, we out grew it.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                If you are not omniscient then how can you be 100% certain that no God exists? You could never claim to God one day that He never gave you any proof of His existence and that is why you didn't want Him in your life when you shut Him out. 

                Be honest, it is not possible to denounce the existence of God.  What is the definition of God? It is a generic term.  You could be a pantheist, New Ager, Muslim.  There are many Gods you could go through.   

                It's kind of like telling people, who don't know about radiation, that radiation exists when they have no evidence of it.  Any deformities they could blame on something else.  There was a time when people didn't know about radiation but it doesn't mean it never existed until it was understood.

                1. artblack01 profile image81
                  artblack01posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  You cannot claim the existence of somethingnorceven the possible existence of something without evidence that shows even the slightest or even remotest possibility that it can exist. I have yet to be shown anything that would suggest any deity of any definitions possible existence.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Why? Why does the existence of the universe, the eternality of it, the Big Bang not in any way suggest there might be something beyond?

                    Why does the fact that so many people believe, and so many claim the same kind of experiences, in a man who died 2000 years ago, not even hint there might be something to it?

                  2. parrster profile image86
                    parrsterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    The “real” evidence of Deity

                    Often it is said, “where is the evidence?”
                    Look around, the evidence is everywhere. Evidence isn't the problem, it is what we choose to conclude from the evidence that needs examining. Each chooses what they believe makes the most sense (or want to believe makes the most sense), and then pursue that belief with all their conviction. That said, if you get it wrong, don't expect a positive conclusion to things.

                    Following are some of the “evidences” and the options we might conclude:

                    Evidence 1. The empirical universe is.
                    Option A. It came into existence from nothing.
                    Option B. It is an eternal entity that has always been.
                    Option C. It was created by an eternal entity who has always been.

                    Evidence 2. Empirical Intelligence (information) exists (E.g. DNA).
                    Option A. It came into existence from nothing.
                    Option B. Intelligence is part of the eternal entity of the universe.
                    Option C. Its existence is the design marker of an intelligent creator(s).

                    Evidence 3. There is incredibly vast and diverse positive symbioses in the universe (and especially on earth).
                    Option A. It has always been this way.
                    Option B. Chaotic evolutionary processes lucked upon it over vast periods.
                    Option C. Its existence is the design marker of an intelligent and purposeful creator.

                    Evidence 4. Mankind’s insatiable desire for that which transcends the physical existence.
                    Option A. It is a meaningless instinct
                    Option B. It is a survival mechanism of evolutionary natural selection
                    Option C. It is the design marker of a creator(s) who also transcends the physical

                    I have made my choice as to what makes the most sense, and I am pursuing Him with zeal. I anticipate a very positive conclusion. See you at the end... maybe.

        5. ShadesOfBlack profile image59
          ShadesOfBlackposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          This seems a bit odd of a question and I can see the ambiguity: a. People refuse salvation and b. people would doubt or deny (His) existence in the face of evidence. 

          The availability of proof for the existence of something does not dictate how one utilizes that proof (what one does with it).  Proof, then may be a necessary condition for atheists to believe, but not sufficient for any particular action.  Knowledge does not build prescription into it.  We have a choice on how to act on beliefs.

          What exactly is entailed in acting on one's beliefs anyway?  If we have proof that every prime
          Number is the sum of two squares are we forced to be Platonists?  I doubt it.  Would proof of a living God, be an end to all our questions and worries?  Like if we discovered a complete unified theory of everything and knew how everything works and emerges, would we have no need for anything else? Would it be the end of the world as we know it? Quite possibly yes.

          Notwithstanding the aforementioned ambiguity, I will submit that the question at hand - a conditional - does no more than bring about a hypothetical and so all we are doing here is a thought experiment because there is as yet no such proof, so we are free to imagine what things would be like.  A more interesting question, I think, would be "ought we to look to history/the bible and what resulted upon apparent proof (of miracles, resurrection, etc)" or ought we look to our best understanding of psychology to prepare for how people will respond to the emergence of such a proof of the Son of God in today's day?

          One final note:  the mere fact that we can construct the conditional, primary question, does not mean we ought to prepare for the possibility that the antecedent is true.  Thought experiments are pretty safe and don't bring the objects of the thought any closer to reality so no need to start playing Pascalian wagers.  An interesting aside though would be if we do have proof of the Son of God, faith would probably be obsolete: but we're still not guaranteed that we would fully understand all the consequences, all the offerrings of, all the rules, all the benefits of His reality perhaps until the very end... Or would we?

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this



            Of course it doesn't dictate how one uses that proof but how many people would turn away from someone who is the epitome of holiness and died for our sins so that we won't have to go to hell if we truly repent? Then we'd prefer hell.  When I took about evidence, I meant a divine revelation from God that makes us see the truth for what it is without any other interpretation needed. Perhaps I was ambiguous assuming people knew what I meant.   




            Some people have been convinced that Jesus is the son of God when textually criticizing the Bible and reading about the argument for the case of the resurrection.  CS Lewis was one of them. 

            It doesn't take the study of psychology to know how non-believers would react to Jesus.  They will be terrified or be fulled with love and adoration for Him and, most likely, pained that they never knew Him in this life-time or anguished that they treated Him with such disrespect on earth. 

            So the proof I am referring to will be what we get on Judgement Day.  I will amend my forum topic.




            Faith is not obsolete when having concrete evidence of His existence.  Does a child doubt the existence of his father when he has faith in him? Having faith means trusting God implicitly even when there appears He is not responding to us. 

            The death, the conquering of sin and evil and the resurrection guarantees us of the "benefits" and that is eternal life.  One thing that validates this to be true is how much Satan and evil hate Him.  Why hate Him if He wasn't victorious?

            So to someone who doesn't know Christ, this is all conjecture but Revelation 17:10 suggests that people, or whatever evil entity they are, will still reject God even though they know who He is.  But they are of the Beast and thus will never repent.

          2. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            The question is not actually conditional. When Jesus does return, as posited in the Book of Revelation, everybody will know He is the Son of God. Sometimes Christians forget that not even all Christians, let alone all non-Christians, are familiar with that book. The conditions set forth for His return leave no doubt that everyone will know who He is.

            1. Cagsil profile image82
              Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              And when it never happens? lol No one will be any more aware if it doesn't. lol
              True enough. I've met Atheists who know it better than Christians. lol
              Thank you for the laughs. lol

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                You're welcome!

                Gee, and I wonder why I would have thought you were mocking me?

            2. Randy Godwin profile image94
              Randy Godwinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Revelation is so controversial I would not put a lot of stock into it  at all.  It's not even clear which "John" is supposed to have spun this tale, Chris.  Some believe the person was suffering from hallucinations due to lack of eating for a period of time.  A well known method of seeing "visions" by some primitive religious tribes and cults.

                                                http://s4.hubimg.com/u/6812619.jpg

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Yeah, I actually did know all that.

                I know that there are groups that are still actively trying to get the book taken out of the Bible.

                Most groups accept that it was John the Apostle based on early church testimonies, despite that there are (if you read the Greek) some differences in style between the Revelation and the Gospel and Epistles of John.

                I've thought about it and struggled with it, but the early church didn't just accept things willy-nilly (if it did, the Gospel of Thomas would be in the Bible today.)

            3. ShadesOfBlack profile image59
              ShadesOfBlackposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Wow, the QUESTION is a conditional regardless of what the answer to the question is.  I also understand that God (if God exists) is omniscient so (He) would know the true answer to the conditional, but that doesn't mean (Y)ou are omniscient.

              1. Insane Mundane profile image60
                Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Blame-shifters will always have trouble understanding the unity at hand; blah!

              2. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                No, I am not omniscient.

                Neither are you.

                The question is based on an understanding of the Second Coming as posited in the Book of Revelation. Unless I've missed something, all the posts I've read by Claire lead me to believe that she fully believes the Bible, including that book. So based on that knowledge, and unless I'm wrong, then no, the question is not conditional. Jesus will come back, and when He does it will be in a way that will leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to who He is.

                1. A Thousand Words profile image80
                  A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  You are mistaken Chris. Claire believes in the NT strongly, but that the OT is very faulty and that the God represented in it in many places is not the true God that Jesus is a part of. She believes that they mostly got it wrong in the OT.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    If that's true, then you're right. I did miss that.

        6. mr williams profile image81
          mr williamsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Sounds like blind judgement to me

      2. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
        Kathryn L Hillposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        They need another way to gather evidence... try ESP!  God can be intuited directly!  Through meditating with love upon him... Just in case any one would like to contact him and get the proof they need. It is so silly for me to be in this Forum. I guess I am just practicing my writing abilities too. It is actually an excellent way to learn spelling, grammar and punctuation.  I am developing many great writing abilities.  But I am so jealous that the spell checker is better than me at spelling.

    2. Titen-Sxull profile image93
      Titen-Sxullposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      How exactly would everyone "realize" he was the son of God? How would Jesus prove that he is all powerful? Would he heal the sick? Raise the dead? Because those are not all powerful things. Would he convey into the minds of every human being the knowledge that he is God? Because any persuasive tele-path could easily do the same thing, it does not require being a deity.

      There is no way to prove that something is all powerful and no standard to test whether this character is actually Jesus, after all we have no original DNA of Jesus, no ancient evidence for his existence outside works of literature even exists.

      Let's say though that he did have some form of evidence that laid to rest any doubts that he was in fact Jesus and was in fact a God of some sort. Does that mean he deserves to be worshiped? Merely for being more powerful than us and for threatening us with Hell? The depiction at the end of the Bible is of Jesus returning to smite his enemies and to demand that every human knee bow to his will, this of course is nothing more than tyranny, killing or damning all who oppose him and forcing all others to be his subjugated slaves and bow endlessly for eternity singing of his "mercies". So no, I wouldn't accept this God, I would defy such an evil and disgusting being with my last breath.

      1. vector7 profile image60
        vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus still loves you.

        smile

        1. 0
          jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          <tos violating link snipped>

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            He loves you too.

            wink

            1. 0
              jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Yea, but he has to first live before doing anything. No amount of your delusion is going to make him alive.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                You sure you aren't automated? God's alive, because emf is a set structure of force that organizes things and is highly complex.

                emf is also not expainable by 'evo' bologna, because it is more sophisitcated than anything technologically available on the earth created by us.

                No amount of inccorect traits you attempt to apply to me make your stance correct.

                God STILL loves you. And if He isn't alive, neither are you.

                wink

                1. 0
                  jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  God, (who also goes by the aliases Yahweh, Allah and Jehovah to evade debt collectors) is the supreme Holy Lord. He is perhaps best known for creating all of existence, with the exception of Himself, unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, the Incan Empire, Big Foot, and Devil's food cake. He is burdened with the unfathomable responsibility of sustaining the vital equilibria that allow life to continue, such as answering prayers, committing genocide, commiting mass infanticide, starting wars, ending wars and making stars twinkle. Despite this responsibility, God Himself shoehorns these important tasks into the corner whenever an important sports game or horse race is on, as He is the universe's most notorious compulsive gambler.

                  This makes more sense than the garbage you wrote.

                2. 61
                  chamiltonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I can only account for my world (it may be that it is all that exists) , but your final statement posses the point that maybe , hard factual evidence , suggests that I am actually dead, given that this evidence says God is not alive. A logical arguement would therefore suggest  that this communication does not exist  but of course it does, your reading it. I have a conclusion which is that if you happen to read this then you are alive in my world where God does not exist .In vector 7's world God exists it must do, its his world!!!

        2. 0
          AKA Winstonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I just received this memo from Jesus: It states that Vector7 has no right whatsoever to speak on his or any other god's behalf.  In the memo, Jesus states that Vector7 is, after all, simply another mortal and has no special knowledge of or relationahip with any god.

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Pretenses are allowed in your 'faith' aren't they..

            smile

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        This telepathic method...couldn't Jesus have put the idea in the Pharisees's heads that He was the son of God.  It is Satan on earth that puts doubts in other's mind.  Some saw Jesus and recognized the truth.  There will come a day when everyone will know 


        He deserves to be worshiped because of the penalty of sin He took upon Himself so we don't have to.  You also have to know the context of Revelation.  Those enemies aren't people. They are demons, half human and half robotic.  Once people take the mark, they aren't them anymore.  Their minds are controlled by evil entities.  Wouldn't you smite those demons who have caused misery and turpitude over the aeons? 

        I don't know where it says Jesus will demand every knew shall bow.  I have Romans 14:11:

        It is written:

        “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
        ‘every knee will bow before me;
            every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]
        12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

        Says nothing about demanding or forcing anyone to bow.  I think if He demanded that as a control freak, He would not have given us free will.

        Philippians 2:10 is similar.

      3. 61
        augustine72posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Here is an article for people like you who claim that Jesus never existed.

        http://christiandebunker.blogspot.in/p/ … isted.html

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          There isn't a shred of evidence for Jesus existence on the site.

          1. calynbana profile image87
            calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            It is telling you to do the research. To really know what you are saying when you say Jesus existed or didn't exist.

            1. 60
              wheatbaybayposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I pesonally believe in a higher power simply because all I have to do is look around and see that there had to some intellect behind the creation of the Earth and everything on it

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                There had to be intellect behind cancer, triatomine bugs, African eye worm, Rhinosporidiosis, hookworm, Screwworms, Filarial Worms? Look these up, Some are parasites that only attack humans. I personally don't see an intellect behind any of this, I see nature taking it's course.

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  And in the ocean every one is eating everyone.

                2. 61
                  augustine72posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes there had to be. Only it was not God.

                  1. 73
                    Robertr04posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I see we will agree, on somethings.

        2. 0
          Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Or, if you really want to know the truth. Do as science does.

          1. Do a study of the history of Israel. Start from 2000 BC.
          2. Do a study on the culture of Israel. Their festivals etc. You have to go to step 3 only after you complete step 1 and 2.
          3. Search in the net for the sites that provide evidence for the existence of a man called Jesus. Study those evidences and do your research to verify them.  But include in your search evidence for and evidence against. Look critically at the evidence. If one goes in with the assumption that Jesus existed and was God, one will only look at the evidence that supports his beliefs. Critical thinking will show you the truth.

          1. calynbana profile image87
            calynbanaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Oh definitely look at both sides of the argument. Otherwise you end up in sticky situations like this one.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdqJyk-dtLs

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That was a sticky situation for the interviewer. Not because he was wrong, but because he was out of his element. He just didn't have the words to argue with someone who had spent 30 years doing research. It's like arguing with a lawyer. I've tried to do that with a lawyer friend that told me the peanut allergy is a myth. I may have been right, but I sure looked like an idiot. A correct idiot, but an idiot.

    3. Josak profile image59
      Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I would then objectively believe that God existed and that the bible was more or less factual but it would not make me a christian, I do not believe the Christian God is worthy of worship nor morally sound judging from the bible and from what he allows to happen on earth.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        What in the NT makes you think God is not worthy of worship? Why did Jesus worship and trust the Lord when He allowed Him to suffer such a horrific death and descend into hell? What about what we allow on earth? Every sin that is committed gives Satan strength.  Even the tiniest one.  We give Satan strength and then wonder why God doesn't do anything about the world? We need to empower Him to influence the world.  It is up to us.  If we choose with our free will to fight evil, the devil wouldn't stand a chance. But we won't.  Should God force us to stop choosing evil? If He does, He is called a tyrant.  So God is weak and unfeeling for allowing evil but tyrannical when He "forces" every knee to bow before Him.

        You can't win with this type of reasoning.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Odd - you wanted the thoughts of atheists - now you ignore them and are preaching at us again.

          This is why your religion causes so many fights.

        2. 0
          AKA Winstonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Claire,

          Are you saying that god is not omnipotent?  If any god cannot do as it will then it is limited - and if an equally powerful second being exists, then there is no omnipotence to start.

          I give people credit for being logical within their worldview - but your worldview doesn't seem consistent enough to allow me to do that.  If god is omnipotent, it then follows that all men should wonder why god allows evil, that mankind cannot influence god's power or decisions in any fashion, and if it is up to us there is no need for this god to begin with.

          To blame man for god's incompetence is silly - but you may be able to get a grant from Monty Python's Department of Silly Thoughts (and Walks).

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Can God send a meteorite to wipe out humanity? Yes, but that would entail killing His own.  Could He force everyone to bow to Him? Yes, but that would make Him a dictator.  True love is being given free will and what does mankind do with it? It gives Satan the power by committing evil.  It's time people stopped having a crai about how inactive God is when they are the ones blocking His influence over the earth.

            If is was all up to us without God no good could exist in the world because all goodness comes from Him.  We would not be in the situation we are in today.  We would be in a hell where no good exists.  So even though we have free will God's presence or lack of presence affects everyone. 

            If you were a teacher who was brilliant and tried to teach a student who was not interested would you blame the teacher and say he was incompetent? Or would you say the problem lay with the student?

            God imposes limits on Himself you could say.  One needs to cooperate with God or else He can nothing for you.  You can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink it.  As for God not being able to being in the presence of evil, it is more like evil not being able to be in His.  Through the Son, God brought Himself into the presence of hell.  I would say God is omnipotent but does not force Himself on those who don't want Him.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              So - what you are saying is that you are right and we are just rejecting the obvious truths.

              It is all our fault in essence?

              No wonder your religion causes so many wars.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                It's not exactly an obvious truth.  I didn't come to this conclusion overnight and was not taught it in church, that's for sure!

                I think everyone would agree, or should, that we must take responsibility for ourselves.  If you don't think that people doing wrong does not contribute to the evil world we are in, then you need to wake-up. 

                "No wonder your religion causes so many wars."

                Out of interest sake, have you trade-marked this?

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Of course we take responsibility for ourselves. What does that have to do with rejecting religious drivel?

                  You should try it some time. Instead of blaming some invisible entities that you can see and we deny - even though they are real and it is us rejecting them - admit it is just you.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    No, it is not just me.  If a person helps another to commit a crime does it make only the accomplice guilty? When we do evil we aid and abet the devil.  We are both the evil doers.  If there wasn't a Satan, of course, there would be no evil to commit.  However, some like to use the latter as an excuse to say, "The devil made me do it!"

                    Satan can't make you or me do anything.  It all boils down to us. 

                    I'm sorry you can't understand this.  There's nothing more I can explain.

                2. 0
                  AKA Winstonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Claire,

                  Did you notice that what you wrote has nothing to do with god or satan?  Evil is a concept invented by man, just as is good.  Once we eliminate the ridiculous, i.e., the miraculous intervention, we can get down to the tasks of reality: solving our own problems by ourselves without appealing for help to superbeings that don't exist.

                  Just us - humans.  Because that's all there is.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You just assume supernatural beings don't exist.  Just because you don't have proof doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  I have no evidence that radiation is in my environment but it is there.

                    You have much to learn of this world.

        3. 0
          jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          In the story of the Garden of Eden God told man not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because he wanted all animals to live in peace and have free will. Without free will there is no love, so when Satan told man to eat of the tree he gave him the ability to love.
          People find this funny because:
          Satanists Think it's funny because people think God created love.
          Atheists Think someone made a story up once, so that proves there is no God.
          Luciferians Think it's funny that the Atheists are doing their job for them.
          Christians Don't think it's funny, because they don't think.
          Other benefits for Satans followers include Free Heating, being allowed to torture people and all you can eat BBQ meat for the rest of Eternity.

    4. nightwork4 profile image62
      nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      obviously anyone in their right mind would still reject him. look at all the horrible things that happen to babies in this world , so even if god and jesus were real, why the heck would anyone worship them?

    5. EinderDarkwolf profile image61
      EinderDarkwolfposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Well personally, I would first ask him why he wasn't a levitical priest as was promised Jeremiah, then I would ask him why he never appeared to the Pharisees after he promised them that he would appear to them upon the resurrection. Though I'd probably still reject him as a saviour.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Out of interest sake, what verse is that in Jeremiah? Have you thought HE may have gotten it wrong? Who said He didn't appear to the Pharisees? He appeared to hundreds, did He not?

        So if you knew that Jesus said you from hell, you'd still reject Him and that by rejecting Him you completely separate yourself from everything that is good.  That's hell.

        1. EinderDarkwolf profile image61
          EinderDarkwolfposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Jeremiah 33:17-22, and no, he didn't appear to hundreds. It's not recorded that he appeared to anyone but the disciples in fact. Each of the 4 Gospels that deal with it agree that he only came to the disciples, but the manner in which he did so is all that's disputed, within the Gospels anyway.

          As for why I wouldn't accept him as a Saviour, it's quite simple. In Ezekiel we are releaved from the the sins of the father. If I'm not bearing any sin from my father, and have not affronted God in anyway except choosing not to love him, then what do I need a Saviour for? What am I being saved from exactly?

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            It's recorded in acts. Discredit by your personal opinion doesn't invalidate the account recorded by Paul. Paul travelled with Peter.

            Ever lied?

            Rhetorical.

            Means you broke the law. Why does everyone think God is evil for holding people accountable for their actions?

            Is the criminal correct to tell the judge he is evil for sentencing him to prison for stealing just because he doesn't understand why we have laws? No.

            And even then He forgives through Christ those who repent, and now that He came, through Christ's name.

            Telling God, "My lies weren't that bad, I shouldn't need your forgiveness." isn't going to change His mind anymore than a judge sentencing a thief.

            Apparently God takes His Law seriously. Otherwise He wouldn't have taken such painstaking measures to save people, He would have "abolished" the Law, which Christ said Himself He came to fulfill.

            My guess is that following the Law, or God's rule to be good, love others genuinely, and put God first, must be important to God.

            Probably for a good number of significant reasons too. He is God, after all.

          2. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Shame, Jeremiah has clearly got it wrong.

            It is from Paul that the claim 500 people saw Jesus.  Did the Gospel writers disagree with this, purposely omitted or lost? I don't know.  What I do know is that Jesus stayed on earth for 40 days before He ascended to heaven after the resurrection.  Jesus would have ventured out during those days and people would have recognized Him and the word would have gotten out.  They probably wanted to see the proof for themselves.  Surely the word would reach the Pharisees?

            Can you show me the Ezekiel verse?

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              He was in India and the USA. By Majik I think. You do know he stayed on earth 40 days. How do you know this? Did god tell you into your head?

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I do know the claim He stayed for forty days, I meant.  I'm sure that wasn't the correct number.  Forty seems the number assigned to a lot of events in the Bible, like Moses fasting, the Flood, Jesus in the wilderness and His time on earth after the resurrection before the ascension.

            2. vector7 profile image60
              vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Jeremiah doesn't have it wrong Claire. He misunderstands the text that doesn't claim what he said it does.

              He does this often. He doesn't understand Jesus claiming to be the Son of man to the priests as being the Son of God, the Messiah wrote of by Daniel either.

              Or to be technical, he denied the correct understanding of it in a previous thread, should I say.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, you are right.  I never thought of that. 

                The Jews were predisposed in their thinking that Jesus being of lineage to royalty, would also be King of Israel.  They assumed this meant that the people of Judah will live prosperously and in safety.  It was an interpretation of prophecy they wanted because, of course, Jesus never did become King and Jerusalem was burnt to the ground forcing the Jews to flee.

                1. vector7 profile image60
                  vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, I do know they were expecting Him to come with glory immediately, the first time. And yes, they wanted someone with a rod of iron that came to reward them.

                  Zacheriah 3 explains when Jesus became the High Priest. He's been crowned King since His departure to Heaven after His "eternal" sarcifice. [fulfilling Jeremiah 33:18]

                  Einder was claiming Jesus Christ wasn't of levitical lineage.

                  But he is nit-picking and looking for fault specifically which is why he is misunderstanding.

                  If you read the chapter and don't flitter around the text missing eveything, verses 14-17 clear the false assertion up pretty obviously.

                  Jeremiah 33:18 doesn't claim Christ will be from the tribe of Levi.

                  It said that the priests, which are Levites, will never want for a man to offer sacrifice to the Lord. 14-17 Would be a side-by-side contradiction if it did and I'm sure the Hebrew is even clearer on the subject.

                  It's a silly accusation. Just another finger pointed caused by pride in ignorance. It's why God resists the proud.

                  1 Peter 5:5

    6. 0
      AKA Winstonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Claire,
      One more time - there is no such thing as 100% proof because proof and evidence are subjective.  A gallon of O.J.'s blood at the crime scene proved to many people that he was a murderer, but to the jury the same evidence only proved an L.A. Police conspiracy had occured. 



      That everyone "realizes" it does not make it so - this is a logical fallacy of appeal to common knowledge or common belief - at one time everyone also "realized" the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe.

      If there is an omnipotent god, then that being knows exactly what it would require to convince me of its reality, and if it were interested in me accepting it, the first item on the agenda would be to demonstrated to me that it was real.  I can have no "free will" to chose between rational and ridiculous, so any argument that this creature has placed me into a situation where I have to believe based on blind faith in my fellow man telling me what I should do is ludicrous and non-sensical, as would be the being who created such a hideous scenario.

      Omnipotent god knows how to win me over - that no god has done so is compelling reason to assume that he does not exist.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I'm talking on a supernatural scale.  Jesus said those who saw Him saw the truth.  Hypothetically speaking, if you realized it was 100% true would you accept Him as your savior?




        Really, hideous scenario? Funny how I have found great joy having my faith refined over the years amidst the hard-ship. Imagine if Jesus had suddenly God appearing to Him and reassured Him that whatever He did, He'd be okay.  No faith needed.  It took years for Jesus to refine His faith in God.

        God never not answers prayer.  Would you be prepared to spend the rest of your life on a journey knowing God instead of demanding proof right here and now? Isn't the latter lazy?




        God can know but what point would that be because people like think He's ridiculous.  You will be able to have a relationship with Him once you humble yourself and admit logic isn't everything.

        1. 0
          jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          How can everybody get delusion?

        2. 61
          augustine72posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Clarie there no point asking the atheists to believe. See this link:

          http://christiandebunker.blogspot.in/p/ … lieve.html

      2. nhaynes profile image60
        nhaynesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @AKA Winston ...

        So happy to have "Free Will" ...

        the Sumerian tablets may interest you;
        http://andromida.hubpages.com/hub/annunaki

        as well as an East Indian book called "Jesus Lived in India"
        http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Lived-India … 1852305509

        Earth's written history ... still in all written by "Man"

      3. Civil War Bob profile image61
        Civil War Bobposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Winston, a slight "tweek" for your logic... when you say, "Omnipotent god knows how to win me over - that no god has done so is compelling reason to assume that he does not exist."  It only means He (if He exists) has not yet decided to do that... or secondly, that He even wants to do that in the first place.
        You're right about the 100% proof in this life.  Death will sort out the disagreements, however...just my view, based on a few years of logic under my belt...unless you're right, and then as oblivion takes over, we'll all be oblivious!

        1. 0
          AKA Winstonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, but in these instances it is a god whom I have no interest in serving, anyway, so once again I am following his will by doing nothing.

          1. Civil War Bob profile image61
            Civil War Bobposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Interesting irony...well, enjoy your weekend.

    7. paradigmsearch profile image90
      paradigmsearchposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      "Atheists, would proof of Jesus as the Son of God make you a Christian?"

      *Paradigmsearch peacefully ambles by...

      Proof of anything, by definition, is proof. Thus, that which is proved is accepted.

      *Paradigmsearch departs before getting in trouble. big_smile

      1. vector7 profile image60
        vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        lol..

        *vector peacefully ambles by...

        Proof of anything, by definition, requires faith in something.

        *vector follows after paradigma off the grid.

        big_smile

    8. ib radmasters profile image60
      ib radmastersposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I am not an aetheist, and I am not Jewish but the Jews didn't believe in Jesus, and they were there.

      Why should anyone settle for Jesus, when no one has seen God?

      1. nhaynes profile image60
        nhaynesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        The Jews did believe in Jesus ... they believed he was a Prophet, just as do the Islam's they believe that Jesus was a Prophet and that Muhammad was the last Prophet ...
        We each can only follow what is in our heart to believe ... as individuals ... if we would only tolerate each other and accept that individuality we would truly be a better race

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
          Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I disagree that anyone should accept what is in other peoples hearts. Do you accept what was in the hearts of the 9/11 bombers? How about the abortion doctor murderer?

          I think the world would be a better place without unfounded beliefs that cause people to bring suffering to others in the belief that they are doing good.

          1. nhaynes profile image60
            nhaynesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            As I said ... you can only believe what is in your heart to believe ...and I can believe what is in mine ...
            You should never accept another's belief to also be yours if your heart persuades you in a different direction .....BUT if we all practice tolerance of one another ... and not try to force our own beliefs on to others this world could be a much nicer place.

            Hopefully that clarifies what I said earlier, so that my opinion may be better understood.

            1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
              Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I understand where you are coming from but I believe that we need to prevent people from harbouring beliefs that will cause them to do harm to others and my belief requires intervention.

              1. nhaynes profile image60
                nhaynesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Then by all means intervene those who are causing themselves or others harm ... I cause no-one, not even myself harm. I do not believe in Religion ... funny, but Religion doesn't believe in me either ... kinda makes religion and I even ... LOL!!! So that being said, Why would I be a recipient of "intervention"?

                1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't know?

              2. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I believe everyone should stop believing in the theory evolution, according to your logic.  We don't want a fan of Darwin like Adolf Hitler exterminating millions to speed up the process of evolution.

          2. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            "Do you accept what was in the hearts of the 9/11 bombers?"

            No way you believe this?

            Lol.

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Jews believed He existed, they just don't believe He is the son of God. Or else they didn't want to.  They had all sorts of excuses like He was a black magician, casting demons out with demons and being crazy. 

        And there were those who knew Jesus was the son of God because they could recognize the truth and there were those who just suppressed it because they didn't want to believe it. 

        Jesus said that if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. Jesus is not a far away figure in ancient history.  He is alive and willing to reveal Himself to all those who want Him.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          So - it is true and those of us that do not believe are in denial then?

          This is why your religion causes so many wars.

    9. 0
      Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      If I knew that Jesus was the son of God, would I reject him as my savior?

      No.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        You wouldn't want to know why you needed saving in the first place?

        1. A Thousand Words profile image80
          A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Well of course, Mark. The first people in existence screwed it up for the billions of people to follow them.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Like I told Claire (which she ignored) Jesus would have some 'splainin' to do, because that is just bad management. One of the first things that caused me to reject their nonsensical religion.

            1. vector7 profile image60
              vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Still want to dictate demands to God?

              lol lol lol

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Don't be silly. There is no such thing as god. I was just voicing my opinion if the big "what if" came to pass.

                Sorry you did not understand again. This is one of the reasons your religion causes so much ill will.

                1. vector7 profile image60
                  vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, and in the case of said if...

                  You would, in your very own words, be dictating demands towards God..

                  I understood fine..

                  smile

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Apparently not. I was simply explaining why your religion makes no sense and the boy would have some 'splainin' to do. You know - because it makes no sense. It is a joke.

                    lol That you think it is real. lol lol

            2. Claire Evans profile image90
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              He won't need to explain.  In death you will just know.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Always gets to the threats - doesn't it?
                Odd - I thought you wanted atheists opinions - guess you just wanted an argument.

                Like Jesus said to do. wink

                1. Claire Evans profile image90
                  Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Since when is this a threat? Did I say, "It's too late, you are going to hell!"?

                  It is true that you will know.  It doesn't mean you are going to hell.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Great. I am glad I am not going to hell. You already told me I am ultimate evil for rejecting Jesus, now that does not matter and I don't get judged.

                    Thank you.

    10. Silver Fish profile image86
      Silver Fishposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Perhaps you need saved- I don't.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        So will there ever come a time in your life when you will be perfect? You will commit evil no longer? This is what salvation is about.  We cannot save ourselves from our flawed nature.  Only Jesus can.

        1. Silver Fish profile image86
          Silver Fishposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Who wants perfection? I am human, that is good enough for me. You may be a sinner- if you want to indulge yourself with guilt  then go ahead.

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Na.. you're soo right. Perfection is over rated..

            Fire ALL the models and find me some bumpy, lumpy, stumpys NOW!

            We've gotta fix this "perfection" crap and get rid of it.

            No one wants it anymore..... I'll go out of business.

            lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

            Made a new level in the laughter categories just for you. The seven head laugh until your dead... lol

            [ sry, you left the door swinging in the wind. asskkin for it man. ]

            1. 0
              AKA Winstonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Vector7,

              What is perfection?  Can you define perfection without circularity, i.e., without saying something absurd like, perfection is god and god is perfection?  And please, don't appeal to the dictionary for help - you are the one who said "Perfection is over rated" - so we need to know exactly what it is you think is over rated. 

              Are you capable of crisp language, of precision in thought and word?  Can you define unambiguously this key word?

              Or is blathering more your style?

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Step back, breathe.. and try again to recognize the sarcasm in your quote from me.

                By the way. The dictionary is a tool.

                Apparently you have given us some insight on why rationality is slowly disappearing into thin air.

                They don't use their dictionary, and don't know what anything means.

                You should use it to look up "sarcasm" lol

                wink

                1. 0
                  AKA Winstonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Run and hide behind the skirts of your mama - "god" - human common knowledge.  We understand it hurts too much to actually think critically because it destroys fantasies.  Mama can wipe your tears and make it all better to believe in fairies.

                  You don't define perfection because you cannot do so.  You cannot do so because there is no such "critter" as "perfection", it is simply a human abstract conceptualization of an imaginary standard against which to judge.
                  And because it is not "real", it requires judgment to determine perfection - human judgment.  Once again, your appeal boils down to belief in self, not god, as the highest order in nature.  You enjoy being judge, as it makes you better than others - a necessity for the Christian ego, destroyed by the idiotic idea of original sin and unworthiness.  Sad.

                  What Vec believes and what Vec judges are equal to what god believes and what god judges - so in essence, Vec is god. 

                  Here's a clue - no one is going to bow to you so get over yourself.

                  All you do is call people names, Vec, even though you deny you do so.  Your only argument is "I'm right, you're wrong, LoL".  That is not an argument - that is bathroom wall graffiti.

                  By the way, sarcasm is a tool.  The dictionary is a book.  One is a concept.  The other is an object.  Thus ends lesson one.  Come back tomorrow.  Start early.  Six o'clock.  Wax on.  Wax off.  For slow learners.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Longer and longer..

                    Drag it out narrator.

                    What was that about "blathering"?  lol

                    smile

          2. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            But being capable of doing evil hurts others.  Don't tell me you haven't hurt or negatively affected with the wrong reasons.  Evil is perpetuated by man's flawed nature who gravitates to what is wrong.

            People should feel guilty about wrong committed.

    11. twosheds1 profile image59
      twosheds1posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No. If "everyone realized" he was the son of God, that still wouldn't be proof. Everyone "realizes" it now, but that doesn't prove anything. Proving he was the son of God presupposes there is a god, and in that case, one could justify worshipping him.

      But even if there was a god, I would still reject him, for this reason: God commanded Abraham to stick a knife into his son to prove his devotion to him. Even though Abe's hand was stayed, in any civilized society, Abraham would be locked up as a psychopath, but somehow we celebrate him now as one whose devotion to God was absolute. What sort of God would command a father to kill his son? It doesn't matter if Abe did it or not, the very fact that he was commanded to just sickens me. It sounds like something Saddam Hussein would have done. "Here, shoot your son to prove your devotion to me... or I'll kill you." But there are no bullets in the gun.

      To me, God seems like a total dick.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        What I mean is that they know it is true regardless of what is presented to them or not.  Everyone. 

        Well, you are describing "God" in the Old Testament, which mainly is based on pagan stories and the occult and mostly has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.  It is custom in paganism to sacrifice the first born.

        "The practice of infanticide has taken many forms. Child sacrifice to supernatural figures or forces, such as the one practiced in ancient Carthage, may be only the most notorious example in the ancient world. Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule."[2]

        Three thousand bones of young children, with evidence of sacrificial rituals, have been found in Sardinia. Infants were offered to the Babylonian goddess Ishtar. Pelasgians offered a sacrifice of every tenth child during difficult times. Syrians sacrificed children to Jupiter and Juno. Many remains of children have been found in Gezer excavations with signs of sacrifice. Child skeletons with the marks of sacrifice have been found also in Egypt dating 950-720 BCE. In Carthage "[child] sacrifice in the ancient world reached its infamous zenith."[8] Besides the Carthaginians, other Phoenicians, and the Canaanites, Moabites and Sepharvites offered their first-born as a sacrifice to their gods.

        Three thousand bones of young children, with evidence of sacrificial rituals, have been found in Sardinia. Infants were offered to the Babylonian goddess Ishtar. Pelasgians offered a sacrifice of every tenth child during difficult times. Syrians sacrificed children to Jupiter and Juno. Many remains of children have been found in Gezer excavations with signs of sacrifice. Child skeletons with the marks of sacrifice have been found also in Egypt dating 950-720 BCE. In Carthage "[child] sacrifice in the ancient world reached its infamous zenith."[8] Besides the Carthaginians, other Phoenicians, and the Canaanites, Moabites and Sepharvites offered their first-born as a sacrifice to their gods."


        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide

        So, yes, that "God" is a total dick.  But it is not God.  You'd be surprised that the literal translation of Genesis actually refer to gods who demanded human sacrifices from the population.

    12. Theophanes profile image95
      Theophanesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I am not an atheist but I am not a Christian either. For me Jesus first would have to come down from the heavens, announce himself, be accepted by Christians and then he'd have to prove to me he was Jesus by conjuring up some fish or changing water into wine or some other amazing thing in full view and to the scrutiny of magicians and scientists to make sure he wasn't just some elaborate hoax. I wouldn't be able to tell myself as I can't even figure out how magicians can make women levitate, which is fine, I don't need to. After this I'd ask him who is in Hell and if he tells me that most scientists, atheists, artists, and gay people are down there then I'd still renounce him... because at that point Hell is where all the interesting people would be.

      1. vector7 profile image60
        vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        All the interesting people indeed.

        Murderers, thieves, liars, torturers, serial killers, rapists, child molestors..

        Good company..

        (long silence here)

        Yep......


        big_smile

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Hell with interesting people.  You have no idea what you are talking about.

    13. HSAdvocate profile image60
      HSAdvocateposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I think I'll turn the question around.  What would you accept as proof that Jesus doesn't actually exist... For instance if a  far superior alien race were to visit earth and they say "wow you guys are really primitive... most of you believe in some omnipotent being that operates outside the laws our universe and He is really concerned with the meaningless lives on your insignificant planet."  Would you still believe in Jesus? Or  would you ask  the being that just came through a wormhole if it is saved or if Jesus is its savior?  I guess we'll all know for sure sooner or later...

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I'd ask the aliens to prove their claim. 

        Those who don't know the truth will know one day.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Why would you ask the aliens to prove their claim? You attack anyone who questions your outrageous claims.

          Hypocrite much? wink

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Mark, what is your problem? Since when do I attack people because they don't believe my claims? Can you give me a quote where I said something along the lines of, "You damn atheists, believe what I say or you're going to hell!"?

            1. aguasilver profile image88
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Ignore him, he will go away, don't feed the.....!

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Those tough questions getting to you huh? Odd how comfortable you are with the warnings, and then dance around after some one dies.

                Why is that? Having second thoughts? Having trouble reconciling this loving god you claim with a god that punishes people for thinking?

                1. vector7 profile image60
                  vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Thinking?

                  Is dat wat you call doin da mokey mokey dance becuz you can't see somfin?

                  Tinkin?

                  lol

              2. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                You're right.

                1. aguasilver profile image88
                  aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks, it took me a while to learn that feeding him just gets him excited, best to let him rant around.

                  If you study his posts from the start they have gradually turned more abusive and intense as he has slipped further away from God.

                  Started reasonably discussing things with folk 4 years ago, now just lurks here spouting the same militant atheism liturgy at anyone who is active as a believer.

                  Think Christ said "Only prayer and fasting will deal with this type" smile

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Unfortunately, this happens too often.  They did start off just discussing but now it's insults and aggression and unreasonableness. It's not the case with everyone.  Some atheists do just discuss.

            2. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Perhaps you could explain why you would ask these aliens to prove their claims, but feel you need to argue with anyone who asks you to do the same?

              And yes - you told me that anyone who rejects Christ is totally evil. This is not an attack? lol

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I'm not expecting anything to believe my claims.  People argue with me because they don't like it when I say it is true. 

                I'm not asking aliens to prove to everyone there claim is true.  I want them to prove it to me.

                I will stop being a "hypocrite" when you stop being a liar.  If you knew as hundred truth that Jesus was the son of God and still rejected Him then you'd be evil.  You don't.  Don't make me explain this to you again.  I'm still waiting for that quote proving I said those who who don't believe Jesus is the son of God because of a lack of "evidence" are evil as opposed to those who know as truth.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Odd - you refuse to prove your claims to me. How is that any different? I am not a liar. Please stop lying about me.

                2. nhaynes profile image60
                  nhaynesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  but Claire ... of course Jesus is the son of "God", but then you also are the daughter of "God" as am I ... as we all are ...

                  you claim you are not trying to "change" anyone and yet you make statements that loudly and very clearly say otherwise ...it's okay ...you can't help yourself ... it's a part of your physical and mental make up ... it's your learned behavior ...
                  Just as a child who has known only abuse it's entire life, it still loves with all its heart the parent /person who abused it ... that is until it learns differently it learns that abuse is wrong or not normal ...that is if it ever gets the opportunity to learn differently

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    We are not God incarnate and that is what Jesus was.  As daughters of God, me nor you can descend into hell and be raised from the dead bearing all sins.  We have no divinity in us. 

                    Why can't I make statements? If someone says they like apples does it mean feel they have to convince everyone it's the best fruit?

                    Thanks for your patronizing comment.  Not.

    14. 0
      Mtbailzposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Depends on how he came in. If it was some guy who did some "miracles" and told everyone to believe than of course not. Magic tricks are a normal phenomena in the modern world. However, if he was to come down riding a cloud or, even better, a Cherubim than maybe. But, I might also check myself into the nearest institution if I was to see a sight like that.

    15. nightwork4 profile image62
      nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      of course i would reject him as my savior. if it was proven he was the son of god, which i also don't believe in, how would that be any different when god is a myth?

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        If He proved He was the son of God then that automatically means God exists.

        1. vector7 profile image60
          vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I wouldn't fight with this one. He'll dispute something even if you make it blatently obvious.

          I do it, but not on things that are sincere. Only when it's for rhetoric fun.

        2. nightwork4 profile image62
          nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          how? wouldn't he have to prove that god exists also. as for vector 7, shush . i already told you that since you won't admit you're wrong, i'm done playing with you.

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Just say He did.  Just by looking at Him you would know the truth.

            1. nightwork4 profile image62
              nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              going on the assumption that i realized there was a god and jesus was his son i still wouldn't call him my savior. if anything i would have a strong hatred for him. i look at the world and see more then some i guess and a lot of it isn't good. if there is a god and jesus, they sure aren't doing anything worth being worshipped.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                So why do you hate the source of good but not the source of evil that is Satan?

                1. 0
                  Mtbailzposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  tough to hate things that don't exist. "By looking at Him you would know the truth". How is this?

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Jesus said those who have seen Him have seen the Father.  In the Bible it is written that there were people who suddenly recognized Him as the son of God. 

                    Of course you will think these are just words, and I cannot prove it, but we will one day know.

                2. nightwork4 profile image62
                  nightwork4posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  where did you get that from. neither satan nor god exist so how can i hate them.to believe in such things is just an easy way to put blame on something other then our selves. when a person does something bad, it's their fault and when they do something good , it's them that did it not some god. btw, i doubt any real atheist ever asked for proof that jesus is the son of god since an atheist doesn't believe in god.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    How can you be so sure neither God nor Satan don't exist? If I do something wrong I most certainly do not blame Satan.  I have to take responsibility for myself.  You stated that if Jesus as the son of God did exist you would hate Him.  Why? You insinuate it is because of the suffering in the world.  Who causes suffering? God? No, it's humanity.  If they did not feed evil there wouldn't be any suffering.  Evil cannot succeed without those who don't feed it or even challenge it.  Knowing humanity could never save itself from evil, Jesus had to take on that responsibility.  I don't think that would be something to justify hating Jesus.

                    What is the alternative to free will? God forcing us to bow to Him? Forcing us to not make decisions for ourselves? Is that not tyranny? On the one hand, God is accused of doing nothing to counter evil and on the other He is considered a tyrant should He feel that we should be forced to worship Him.

    16. DAWNEMARS profile image73
      DAWNEMARSposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Under the described circumstances I would. To me, he is a wonderful character and hero who to me represents the struggle of defining the Self as a part of our being. If the end was here and I knew who he was then sure I would want to help him out in his plan.

    17. Chuck Field profile image61
      Chuck Fieldposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I apologize in advance, because I don’t want to insult any individual about their beliefs, but I can’t even comprehend the question as being legitimate. Its like asking me “If the Tooth Fairy appeared to mankind would you start having your kids leave their teeth under their pillow?”  The concept that such a being exists, seems completely childish to me. For the sake of argument, I will suspend any critical thinking I have in place about the potential existance of a Gods son, to allow such a circumstance to take place, and I can still say unequivocally No. His father is far too malicious, unethical, jealous and petty, to ask forgiveness from his son. I personally, have read everything this God has done and expects of people to do in his honor and I have too many morals to be associated with his lot. I have read books where mob bosses are far kinder than this Christian God. No thanks... I would never kowtow to his son, just to be included under his protection.  I have too much self respect, than to live under that kind of rule.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        You mean your perception of God that He is malicious, petty, etc, because of the Old Testament influenced by paganism and the occult in its majority.  The nature of Jesus is the nature of God and that is not like He is depicted in the OT.

        1. Chuck Field profile image61
          Chuck Fieldposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          As much as you would like to think (and many good moral Christians do) the Old Testament is not part of today’s Christianity, I’m sorry to say that it can’t be avoided.  As you should know, the books of what comprises the Biblical Canon were reviewed and approved in 325 AD at the council of Nicaea; along with the creation of the Nicene Creed and the official position on the divinity of Christ. Since that time, no such council of its type has ever convened to review the Canon again. I will speculate that it will never happen, since we no longer have emperors to force feuding Christian factions together to make such judgments.  As a U.S. citizen living in the southern part of the county, Christianity is stronger here than anywhere else in the country and southern states to this day, still use the Old Testament for the basis of laws and state constitutional amendments. Christian Amusement parks and museums are built in this country that highlights the Old Testament stories. Legal battles take place across this country when it concerns teaching children about Creationism with equal importance as Evolution. That does not come from the New Testament…
          Furthermore,  let me just say that the New Testament is riddled with quotations which highlight the importance of the Old Testament.  One example -  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.  I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."  (Matthew 5:17).
          Last, if you truly believe that the Bible is the divine word of God, you would think that he/she/it would have spoken through Jesus or any other prophet for that matter, to rid the world of that part of the Canon.  No, I’m sorry. I understand from being a Christian for over 30 years, many do not want to claim the Old Testament, but it’s yours to keep, unless you revise your personal beliefs to exclude Christianity.

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I know it is part of Christianity but that doesn't automatically mean it's true!  The Old Testament cannot be disregarded in its entirety but most of it is just not true.  Read Jeremiah 8:8 chastising the scribes for lying.

            Jesus was saying He was not there to negate the whole Old Testament by saying, "I didn't come to abolish the law".  But what laws was He talking about? I strongly suspect there is a difference between God's law and Jewish laws.  Were not animal sacrifices abolished by Jesus?  God's law has never wavered and one of the reasons Jesus came was to clarify His law.  The Pharisees manipulated and reinterpreted God's laws for their own purposes. 

            "Fulfilled" has more to do with prophecy:

            Matt 2:15 “and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

            Matt 8:17 “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses.”

            Matt 21:4-5 “All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “Tell the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your King is coming to you, lowly, and sitting on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey.’“

            Matt 26:56 “But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.

            Jesus definitely did not negate these prophecies but fulfilled them.

            However, "fulfilled" can also mean to teach or inculcate, which he most certainly did in His sermons.



            "Last, if you truly believe that the Bible is the divine word of God, you would think that he/she/it would have spoken through Jesus or any other prophet for that matter, to rid the world of that part of the Canon."

            And leave Satan out of the equation? The Vatican is the most Satanic institute on the planet.  It serves their purpose to keep part of that cannon.  After all, you know how much suffering the "promised land" lie has caused?

            1. 61
              jacquieaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I find it amazing that for so many years since Christ died the world has debated His existence, His diety, and His promise to return. There is no other reason for this except for fear of people that He is who He sais He is because then they are responsible for the decisions in their life and they don't want to face that, they enjoy living for themselves.The Bible is the most stolen book in the World for a reason, it saves lives. I also think that if Christians in the time of Jesus were going to make up a story about a Messiah then surely they would have made their messiah into a dashing hero carrying a sword and riding on a steed to conquor the world for Israel, and then sit him on a throne draped in Gold. The fact that most of them were put to death for telling the truth about Jesus's humility in His service for mankind and His refusal to deny who He was in front of Pilate who had power to execute Him should tell people that this story was not made up to serve a selfish purpose. If it was then they did a very poor job. There are just a million other self serving stories that could have been written but the truth is the truth and some people cannot or don't want to recognize it for what it is.

              1. 0
                Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Christ's historical existence has been debated primarily in modern times, and then only by a minority. It is his divinity that people doubt, and that isn't particularly amazing. After all, acceptance of deity requires faith, which many people -- myself included -- are not willing to blindly give.

              2. Randy Godwin profile image94
                Randy Godwinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                You do know of course, according to the Old Testament biblical prophets Jesus was supposed to be a great military leader instead of a peaceful man?  Of course you do or you don't know very much about the bible.

                This is why the Jews do not accept him as the Messiah.  You must be a Baptist or at least from the Bible Belt if you didn't know this.


                                                    http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

                1. Claire Evans profile image90
                  Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Can you give me that particular scripture of that prophecy, please?

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                    Randy Godwinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Of course.  The Jews had many different reasons not to accept Jesus as the Messiah. In fact, there were several false messiahs who didn't fulfill the prophecies either.

                    You need to check out the "original" Hebrew scripture, not that which has been contaminated as the KJV has been.

                    It's always funny to me how Christians don't take the word of the chosen people of Jesus and instead, listen to those who only have questionable translations of the original scripture. 

                    Jesus did not complete the tasks or fulfill all of the prophecies.  Otherwise, the Jews would have accepted him as the Messiah.  Duh!

                    http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm



                                                                     http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

              3. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I suppose they couldn't exactly write His mission was to conquer Israel because that didn't happen.  He'd be a failed Messiah.  However, why would the Gospel writers write that He was crucified and hung on a cross when it was an execution reserved for the worst in society.  That's hardly appealing to future converts.  And, of course, the disciples who saw Jesus resurrected would have preferred it if it was written THEY found Jesus first instead of woman who tended to be deemed as liars and could not even testify in court.  It just goes to show what was written was the truth.

                1. 61
                  jacquieaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I agree, well put!

    18. Chris Neal profile image84
      Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I've read a few of the posts, and it only confirms the answer that I formulated when first reading the question, "Some would and some wouldn't."

      Just like almost every other catch-all description, "atheist" doesn't simply describe one kind of person. What unites them is the belief that there is no God, but some are logical people who can't see the logic in God, and some hate religion in general and Christianity specifically, and would find any other explanation. It simply depends.

    19. Gaizy profile image93
      Gaizyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      You say "and everyone realised he is the son of God" like it is some sort of proven truth. There is no evidence Jesus existed and there is no evidence God exists. This statement makes about as much sense as saying "If Hitler came back to life and everyone realised that he was Mickey Mouse, would we still hate him?"

      1. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        No it doesn't.

        There are no prophecies of Hitler coming back. At all. Anywhere.

        There are prophecies of Jesus coming back, and if they're true, then when He does come back (out of the sky, leading an army) then everyone will realize that something is going on. Not everyone will see right at that second that He is Lord, but most people would.

        1. Gaizy profile image93
          Gaizyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Out of the sky? lol - What in a UFO or just flying like Superman. No prophesies? - Check out the nutters on youtube who prophesy that Hitler WILL return, because the Nazis were never beaten, they just dicovered UFO technology and are living on the dark side of the moon! - And surely everyone has heard that Elvis will one day return. These people belive these things will happen every bit as much as you belive the flying army thing - They too, have incredible faith - Doesn't make it true.

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Neither. Read them yourself.

            Okay, so there are nuts who think Hitler was never beaten. Not the same thing. I have never said it's the faith that proves the truth. So as for "They too, have incredible faith - Doesn't make it true." Boy, you got that right.

            1. Gaizy profile image93
              Gaizyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              So the "faith doesn't prove the truth", and any evidence that would stand up in court is non existent - So why in hell would anybody believe this stuff?
              Don't say because it's written in the Bible, 'cos that only works if you believe in the stuff in the first place - it's a circular referrence.

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I've never said that's the only reason.

                How do you know it wouldn't stand up in court?

                1. Cagsil profile image82
                  Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Belief or faith wouldn't hold up in a court of law. Evidence is required which a belief and faith isn't.

              2. ComfortB profile image84
                ComfortBposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                "So why in hell would anybody believe this stuff?"
                My friend, nobody in hell believed this stuff, else they wouldn't be there (in hell, that is) in the first place. smile

                1. Josak profile image59
                  Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  If there is a hell I am entirely sure there are a whole lot of Christians there.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, if you read the Bible you would find that that is entirely correct. Just because you call yourself a Christian doesn't mean you follow Christ.

    20. sen.sush23 profile image61
      sen.sush23posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      If my aunt grew a beard I would definitely call her uncle. big_smile

    21. Eugene Hardy profile image61
      Eugene Hardyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      And how can you prove Jesus' Dad is truly God?

      And, are either of them worthy to be worshiped?

      Both questions for me are some what irrelevant, because I find the Christian religion uninterested in enlightenment or spiritual empowerment - only for its worshipers to be subservient.

      So, I pursue my own spiritual path.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I'm hypothetically posing the question if everyone knew with being deceived He was the son of God.  I can't prove it to you. 

        Well, Jesus dying for your sins and descended to hell so you won't have to if you truly repent means He is worthy of worship. 

        By spiritual enlightenment, do you mean a quest to Godhood?

        Don't think when one is Christ committed they don't spiritually grow and don't learn new things.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image94
          Randy Godwinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          God sacrificed nothing.  He simply brought Junior back when he pleased.  In fact, it is impossible for an omnipotent being to sacrifice anything unless he doesn't have the power to recreate it or bring it back again.  Oops, there goes the omnipotence!  lol


                          http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

        2. Eugene Hardy profile image61
          Eugene Hardyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Godhood is a worthy goal, but not my own.

          I have no desire to be anyone's God, or to have followers worship me.

          I simply like to know the truth from as many perspectives as possible.

          I simply do not trust the theology or spirituality of Christ or Christianity.  And I know there is a God.  It is my preference to shape my spiritual to the spirituality within me - and it isn't Jesus, no matter how much you justify worshiping him. 

          To me, he is not God no matter how powerful he is or self-sacrificing he is, and the same goes for his Dad too.  Neither threats nor bribery will change how I feel about my spirituality.

          1. pennyofheaven profile image81
            pennyofheavenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            What a burden that would be, being someone else's God. The responsibilities and expectations of the followers would be too much! You may as well go on the quest for the fountain of youth.hehe You would survive a lot longer even if you don't find the fountain of youth.

            I like the Spirituality within.

            1. startupninja profile image60
              startupninjaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That is precisely the issue with theists... the belief that God needs (or rather demands) to be followed. Humanity becoming god is merely a practical metaphor for achieving the magic like attributes you credit God with. It is not a matter of becoming someone else's God but rather understanding and having power over nature and of creation. For it is when faced with ultimate power, that the reality of the human condition can be revealed. If we are worthy of wielding such power, we will become masters of our own reality, if we are not we will be undone by our own mistakes. It is as simple as that.

              1. needmoretime profile image61
                needmoretimeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                As the snake eats it's own tail.

              2. pennyofheaven profile image81
                pennyofheavenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                That's about the gist of it.

            2. Claire Evans profile image90
              Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              God will take on those burden for those who love Him.  Love is selfless and a loving God won't put His own burden first. 

              You could say it is a burden to be a parent.  Children expect a lot from their parents and many see their parents as failing them.  But the parents love the children and the burden is worth it.  I say this in the case of a parent who loves their child.

              1. pennyofheaven profile image81
                pennyofheavenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                And therein lies the problem with erroneous thinking. When one believes God will solve the ills of the world when they do not realize God is not outside of them. They will be waiting a very long time for these burdens to be released.

                Burdens are man made. If we do not take responsibility for our own thinking and our own actions I understand why it will be easy to blame Satan or others who are reputedly satanic for everything that goes wrong in our lives. The more people who continue these thinking patterns are continually going to be highly disappointed with their reality...at least for the most part.

                I do not know any one yet that view parenthood as a burden? When you love a child or anyone for that matter what is burdensome about that?

                1. 0
                  Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Pennyofheaven, I misread you initially. My apologies. I communicate with so many people on the Internet, all believing (largely) mutually contradictory things, who all "know" that they are right, that, well... I lumped you with them. Again, my apologies.

                  1. pennyofheaven profile image81
                    pennyofheavenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    No need to apologize it's all good. I am often lumped into places I have no idea I have been lumped. I am lump-able like that.

                2. Claire Evans profile image90
                  Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this



                  You are the one with erroneous thinking.  You think you should be on a mission to ignite the divinity in you.  God is a separate entity like a parent is to his child.  You go on about this "God within you business" when the Bible doesn't mean it so in that context.  Disappearinghead explained that to you.  Now I'm sure you would like to feel special and think you know best because of your godhood, but that just isn't the case.  The world is in such a mess because people believe they know best and thus don't listen to God.  They think every thought they have, if they believe as you do, must be the "God within" coming out. 





                  Of course we need to take responsibility for our own actions.  We can't blame God or Satan saying they made us do things.  They do not.




                  This is the point I'm trying to make.  God as the Father does not feel burdened by His people.  Think of Him as the Father and us as His children.  This is the very reason why Jesus taught that faith in God is so important so that WE won't be burdened by the fears of the world.  Also, Jesus gave all the credit to the Father and so should we.

                  1. pennyofheaven profile image81
                    pennyofheavenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I understand how you would perceive my thinking as erroneous. So be it. Where did I say I was on a mission to do anything? Where did I say I feel special and know best because of my godhood (as you put it)? That is your perception that I can do little about. Read in to my words whatever you like. Remember though, you asked. If you don't like the answers you get you can always stop asking.

                    Perhaps in your view the world is a mess, I happen to think the world is a beautiful place.

                    I agree people believe they know best and don't listen to God. Many are too busy listening to themselves or others to hear God.  If one cannot discern what is of God and what is of mind I understand why they would think they know best. Remember let thy will be done not mine. What does that tell you? Jesus understood listening to himself was not useful. Listening to the God within was more useful. In the silence of ones mind one will hear.

                    So what was your point when you said God will take on those burdens from those who love him? Since we create our own burdens because we think we know best are we then to believe because we love God they will magically disappear?

                    Your logic makes no sense. God in the form of faith takes away the fears of the world yet one is supposed to fear God.

          2. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Really, and what attributes will you have as a god?



            The role God has is to be the Father and to share His love and be a helper for those in need.  If you love your creation, you will desire to be their God.  And God does not want blind worship.  He wants love.




            What part of Christianity to you object to?



            Well, a God is an omnipresent, omniscient and conquering entity.  So what is your definition of God and who is threatening or bribing you?

            1. Eugene Hardy profile image61
              Eugene Hardyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Personally, I'd prefer to have as much time to explore existence and it's meaning. 

              That is, I'm Gnostic, I have no desire to be God, (but I believe I've said that already).  You see God with a Christian perspective, I do not, so why should I bother trying to worship as you do?

              Jesus is not God.

              But God simply "Is."

              From my point of view, God is beyond the need to conquer.  If such a being has that need to conquer then it probably is not God.

              And it is that need to "conquer" that I dislike.  People should be free to their own beliefs, or disbelief.

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                In a very real sense, people are free to believe or disbelieve whatever they wish. And God did not conquer eternity, He created it!

                However, what you believe or don't has real impact both on this life and the next.

                And Jesus did claim to be God, so either He "just 'Is'" God or He "just 'Is'" insane. There's really no middle ground.

                1. Eugene Hardy profile image61
                  Eugene Hardyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  OK, I am the creator of the universe, will you now worship me?  It's not perfect, but it was my first one I ever created....

                  No, I'm afraid my claiming to be the creator of the universe does not earn me worship points.  Yes, in a very real way each human being is creating our universe by our perceptions, yet I'm willing to bet none are worthy of worship.

                  And "conquer" isn't my word concerning God, that one belongs to Claire Evans.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Since you didn't create the universe, you're right, you're no more worthy of worship than I am. And I am certainly not worthy to be worshipped.

                    I know that "conquer" was Claire's word. I was clarifying.

                    Humans do "create" their own universe by their perceptions and actions, but God created the actual universe! Big difference.

                2. startupninja profile image60
                  startupninjaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  It must be very comforting to believe that the "next" life will be so awesome that we need not worry about this one. Forget about making things better, we just need to be all good and patient, and then the better life will simply come to us.
                  It a pretty lazy viewpoint don't you think..!?

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    No lazier than the assumptions that allow people who don't believe to tell me what I do believe. And since they're so often wrong (and so often wrong despite what I tell them) then I am forced to conclude that they are simply too lazy to actually figure out what I believe.

                    Before you get too angry about that statement, keep in mind that I have read (in these forums, no less!) more than one person say that since they didn't understand why people like me believe in God, they have simply decided that we are too stupid to handle reality. The implication is that since they fail to intuitively understand it, it cannot be properly understood. Lazy. And arrogant.

                  2. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Wow, who says we don't care what's happening in the world? It is a Christian duty to help make things better in the world. 

                    The gift of the Holy Spirit is that He gives us strength during the hard times.  It also teaches us not to worship things of the world because they can come crashing down in a split second.

              2. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this



                You say that seeking godhood is a worthy goal.  What attributes would one have to be considered a God.




                I should have made myself more clear.  God conquered evil so that we won't succumb to sin, and hell, if we truly repent. That is an act of love.  To add, despite this conquering, He does not compel us to benefit from this victory.  He gives us free will to do as we choose.

                1. Eugene Hardy profile image61
                  Eugene Hardyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  As I said before, it is worthy goal to seek godhood, BUT NOT FOR ME.

                  The way I see it, I can accomplish gnosis without having to become a god.
                  Being god is more trouble than it is worth from my point of view.

                  Claire Evans: "He gives you that right to worship or not worship whom you choose! I mean, is God forcing you to worship Him now? It takes arrogance for a god to say, "Serve me or else!" An arrogant, tyrannical God with omnipotence is not going to allow their creation to reject Him.  So why subscribe to the notion that God gives us free will on earth just to chuck us into hell because we didn't do things His way?"

                  Precisely.

                  The ultimate 'love' that God can give is free will - with no penalty attached. 

                  Atheists are free to exist and be happy in this life or the next(?), and so on with any other belief, knowledge or path. Hence, it makes the idea of 'Hell' kind of silly.

                  I can not and will not say 'God' told me to say any of these things, I follow my own path.

                  This is the truth as I see it, no one else on this planet has to see it - its personal.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    That's not what I'm asking.  I'm asking why it is a worthy goal and what attributes would one have as a god?



                    Gnosis is divine knowledge.  So how do you achieve divine knowledge? Through occult methods which is a Satanic practice.  Gnosis revolves around the notion of becoming a God:

                    In the Gnostic tradition, Hermes is a symbol of the perfect man or that any man can self-exalt himself to be a god-like higher being, like Christ. It’s a central theme of the occult. Gnosticism originates from a combination of Paganism, Greek philosophy and the apocalyptic End Times tradition of the Zoroastrians. It is accretionary, that is accepting of many different religious traditions and paths to unity with the godhead.

                    http://stop-obama-now.net/obamas-occult-logo/

                    The symbol of Gnosticism is a sun cross and sun worship is Satanism.

                    Baal is a sun good.

                    Baal (Phoenician)
                    Son of El (god of thunder and lightning), Baal was the sun god of the Canaanites and Phoenicians, whose worship spread to the ancient Jews. In the Bible, Baal is also known as Beelzebub.

                    Sun represents enlightenment.  In fact, it was Satanist Aleister Crowley who created Gnostic Mass:

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_XV,_The_Gnostic_Mass

                    So you are associating yourself with great evil.







                    I don't understand why you don't understand that rejecting God is rejecting all good and who devours those who embrace all evil? No one good would reject Jesus when they see Him one day.

            2. Eugene Hardy profile image61
              Eugene Hardyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Claire Evans: "Well, a God is an omnipresent, omniscient and conquering entity.  So what is your definition of God and who is threatening or bribing you?"

              Bribe: The promise of Heaven and the salvation of the soul, if only you repent and worship Jesus Christ.

              Threat: Eternal damnation in Hell if you do not repent.


              The one thing I know about God is that God is not going to have you perjure your soul just so you can go to heaven.  If it is not in my soul or heart to worship Jesus then he is not God, nor is his father God.

              No matter what threat or bribe it is not going to change my inner truth.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                First of all, to be in heaven you have to be clean of sin and none of us can do that by ourselves.  By taking on the sin of the world, Jesus could save us from hell because true repentance repels evil.  Is it too much to ask for one to turn away from evil? Is it not an act of love to experience hell so that we won't have to?



                And so that is where people those people should be.  Should a paedophile who won't repent be in heaven with God?? And the absence of God is the definition of hell so God sends no one to hell.  People do.




                He gives you that right to worship or not worship whom you choose! I mean, is God forcing you to worship Him now? It takes arrogance for a god to say, "Serve me or else!" An arrogant, tyrannical God with omnipotence is not going to allow their creation to reject Him.  So why subscribe to the notion that God gives us free will on earth just to chuck us into hell because we didn't do things His way?

                1. EinderDarkwolf profile image61
                  EinderDarkwolfposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus was never sent to the cross to take on the world's sin. At least, I've never read it. It's almost as bad as people thinking that if you believe in him you go to heaven, which he didn't say at all.



                  If you have to believe in him to get to heaven, then he is holding you basically at gun point. He's telling you flat out that it's either worship him or be tortured forever. When weighing options, most people don't want an eternity of pain.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    2 Corinthians 5:21


                    New International Version (©1984)
                    God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

                    1 Timothy 1:15 "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

                    "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

                    The Lamb was sacrificed.

                    Romans 6:23


                    New International Version (©1984)
                    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.






                    Satan believes in Jesus! If you do not want to be with the source of all good then how can God force you? If you choose to stay with sin, Satan has access to you. It's not as if Satan respects anyone's free will.  Can God say, "Hey, paedophile! I don't want you to go to hell so I'm just going to turn the other cheek and let you in!"

                    I hope you understand that.

                2. Eugene Hardy profile image61
                  Eugene Hardyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  "And so that is where people those people should be.  Should a paedophile who won't repent be in heaven with God?? And the absence of God is the definition of hell so God sends no one to hell.  People do."

                  Interesting.

                  So you're saying that there is the potential for paedophiles to have their own 'heaven?'  Follow your own logic, (and I mean no offense), if you have paedophiles who are 'evil' to the core they are not going to be worried about being next to god.  For them their sins are 'good' things, thus this arguement does not help your cause for Jesus.

                  And, you do know there are other religions and spiritual paths that are 'better' than Christianity when it comes to things like empowerment and enlightenment, right?

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I said nothing about paedophiles having their own heaven.  There is no such place as heaven with God.  I think paedophiles are going to have a hard time facing God one day.  Being terrified of God because of His glory and true repentance are completely different things.  What people don't realize is that facing God means they will have complete realization of what is wrong and what is right.  People who are evil may think what they are doing is right but that's because they have never stood in the presence of God.  They are deluded because they have never seen the truth which is God. 



                    Oh, yes, Satan will make sure he whispers that into the ears of everyone.  Yes, God does not promise you Christ consciousness but Satan will offer you omniscient enlightenment even though he knows he is lying.  Yes, Satanists, New Agers, and Freemasons have fallen into that trap.  Enlightenment is all about serving themselves whereby Jesus came to serve.  Many people don't like the idea of humbling themselves to Jesus.

                  2. ComfortB profile image84
                    ComfortBposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Eugene Hardy - "And, you do know there are other religions and spiritual paths that are 'better' than Christianity when it comes to things like empowerment and enlightenment, right?"

                    Would you care to educate me on these 'better' paths?

                3. 0
                  Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  This was in response to this:



                  So we will have unrepentant jaywalkers suffering eternal damnation while repentant pedophiles will spend eternity in heaven with God?



                  Let's pretend for a moment that I put up trespassing signs, and the warnings on these signs are especially stern. However, absolutely everyone trespasses anyway. Why do they trespass despite my warning? Well, because I on everything. Trespassing is literally unavoidable.  I hold a press conference one day, and I let all of those trespassers know that I will pardon them if they ask me to; they only have to ask. Years pass. Some avail themselves of the opportunity, some don't.  I eventually horribly punish those who failed to apologize, and pardon those who did. I manage to convince myself and some of trespassers that my actions were reasonable. After all, trespassing is a heinous crime, right? And all I wanted was for them to ask my forgiveness!

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Who's doing the threatening? You have free will right to the end! What kind of God allows evil to thrive in heaven? People choose to go to hell.  What do you think happens when someone rejects all good? They embrace all evil? What do you think happens then?






                    People whine and say God holds people at gunpoint if they don't serve Him but when He saves paedophiles who truly repent, He is being soft. 






                    This really is a bad comparison.  How can God own everything and expect someone not to trespass if someone being on his property is against His will? The only way not to trespass is not to exist! It's not like people had a choice! God gives choices.  God is reasonable.

    22. 61
      jacquieaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      The belief in Jesus requires a spiritual mind to percieve spiritual truths as compared to a carnel mind as it states in the Bible. I find that Christianity is entirely about enlightenment and spiritual empowerment. These are the fundamental elements of this faith and without spiritual enlightenment there is no belief in Jesus because He is spirit, He only came to us as flesh so that we could understand who we really are, a spirit like Him.

    23. 0
      Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      First you would have to prove the existence of God. Atheist don't discriminate against any religion. Jesus have very little to do with Atheism, but the concept of God has everything to do with religion. It's funny, but Christians can't every prove to other believers in God that Jesus was the son of God, so why even ask?

    24. chatpilot profile image77
      chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Absolutely not! I find the biblical God repulsive and don't see any difference between him and any other dictator that has existed and ruled people on this earth. The idea of worship is disgusting in that you have to acknowledge to yourself that the great and powerful Oz is greater than yourself. Regardless of the evil he has done.

      I have never killed anyone buy according to the bible God has killed many, just because he "created" us does not give him the right to kill us. I have more morality in my pinky finger than the biblical deity could ever have in his whole nonexistent self!

      1. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Indeed!  "Acting Godly" is against the law these days in most places.  lol


                                           http://s4.hubimg.com/u/6812619.jpg

      2. Cagsil profile image82
        Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        You apparently don't realize. You cannot use this particular argument.

        If you created something, then do you not have ownership over it and complete authority over it? Which means, if you wanted to destroy your creation, then it should be up to your own choosing, shouldn't it?

        If a G/god existed, it would think that it has the sole "right" to do as it pleases.

        1. chatpilot profile image77
          chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I disagree Cagsil, that is all well and good if you bought a house and decided one day to burn it down just for the hell of it. But if you value human life and consciousness then you have no right to create it and treat it as property. Based on your argument we are no different than inorganic substance.

          You might as well say you agree with slavery since it also worked on the master property system. The military actually still functions under this system. G.I. stands for government issue and that is exactly what a soldier is; property of the U. S. government. I know, I was in the military.

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You're missing the point.

            It's more like, if you wrote a book, then decided to destroy it. Of course, with God there is no "just for the h*** of it." But that's the principal.

            If you buy a house, then you bought what someone else has made and you do it with the clear understanding that you are abiding by rules set in place by others for that location before you ever got there. If you write the book/paint the picture/sculpt the clay(to borrow from the Bible) then it's totally yours free and clear (at least until you cede control over it by selling it or giving it away.) What you do with it is your business.

            THAT is the argument. That God made the universe and everything in it, with no outside governing force. Which is why, if you believe that the God of the Bible exists, arguments about Him being "crule, selfish, maniacal, etc." are meaningless.

            And if you don't believe He exists, then why waste your time?

      3. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        You mean the Old Testament God.  Do you see any similarity between him and Jesus?

        1. chatpilot profile image77
          chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Jesus is worse! And by the way it's supposed to be the same God directing events in both the O.T. and the N.T. the only thing that changes is the covenant he made with the Hebrews under the law and the later dispensation of salvation by grace as outlined in the N.T.

          The reason I think that the "new covenant is worse" is that it includes a hell and eternal torment. Physical death is not enough for your sadistic and maniacal God. He needs to make you suffer for the crime of not believing in him even when he refuses to provide sufficient evidence for his existence.

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Wow, have you got it all wrong! Don't you know that the scriptures in the OT have been corrupted? Read Jeremiah 8:8? Did you also not know how heavily influenced the Jews were with paganism and the occult? The literal translation of Genesis, for example, talks about the gods directing the Jews and not God.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MXLB6S … r_embedded

            It's not to say that there is no trace of the Father of Jesus.  The prophets knew Him as best they could. We know that Jesus quoted the Old Testament.  However, the Pharisees and some other Jews were really angry with Him for undermining the scriptures.  He was giving it a revamp, correcting the corruption in the Old Testament.  He preached forgiveness whereby the OT talks about hate and revenge. 

            As for the hell bit...do you think that evil should not be held accountable? The ironic thing about this is that evil imposes hell upon themselves as hell is the separation from God.  If you don't want to be with God, then where else can you go? Satan is going to snap up anyone who doesn't want to be with God because they love their evil.

            The problem why people have a problem with this hell business is because they don't want to be held accountable for evil.  They want to do as they wish and not have this threat of hell business over their heads. 


            It's just amusing to me how people chastise God for allowing evil to happen and then whine that hell is the penalty. 

            It is clear that God is not forcing us to do anything and it will be like that till the end.  God does not punish people for ignorance and you have to know truthfully know God in order to reject Him.

          2. ComfortB profile image84
            ComfortBposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            "The reason I think that the "new covenant is worse" is that it includes a hell and eternal torment."

            Do you realise that even the Old Testament, the old covenant makes reference to hell as a place of purnishment for the disobidient. The word is "Sheol" translated "the pit", or "the lowest hell"

            Numbers 16:30, Deuteronomy 32:22, I Samuel 2:6.

        2. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, he has found the Gospel offensive, and indeed it is!

    25. paradigmsearch profile image90
      paradigmsearchposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Flame Bait!!! Well..., maybe not...smile

      Of course, proof, by definition, is proof. I figure that since this thread is not going away, I might as well join. I hope you all will like me.

    26. kathleenkat profile image90
      kathleenkatposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No.

      Unlike what (most) Christian sects believe, believing in God and being Christian are not mutually exclusive. If I learned Jesus was indeed the son of a higher being, no, I would not be Christian. Sorry. Christianity has been too tainted and flawed, and there is likely very little accuracey in it after so many years of transferring information. It's like photocopying something..over and over and over. Eventually, it's going to be too black and choppy to read.

      Let people find their beliefs on their own terms!!!

      1. VAMPGYRL420 profile image81
        VAMPGYRL420posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Yes yes! smile

    27. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Every god throughout history purported to exist has had the opportunity to come to earth and show us all they do in fact exist, provide us all with their "word" and unite us all into one glorious spiritual group o believers. None have ever done so.

      Sure, let Jesus or any other god show himself to us, we have been waiting patiently. The clock is ticking.

      1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image86
        HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Hey, ATM, long time no see. Welcome back.

        "None have ever done so." Well, there is that one. You know the one. The one that correctly described the formation of the earth and all life on it. The one that explained how the human ego/free will was introduced into the world which resulted in the birth of the first civilizations (Sumer/Egypt) and forever changed the way humans lived. The one that the books of Moses, ancient texts whose origins are still unknown except that they originate in the cradle of civilization, describe protecting and preparing that one specific bloodline so that He could be born in the flesh. The same God who is the basis of the three largest religions and the savior whose short time on this earth incited the largest religious reaction ever seen. That same God that half the world's population still to this day believes in. There's a lot you have to ignore to be able to say 'None have ever done so". Most of human history from the first civilizations on are tied directly to this one God and His interactions with humans.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Not much of anything you said is valid, just beliefs supporting beliefs.

          1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image86
            HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I don't just spout invalid nonsense. I can back up everything I've said with the exception of Jesus being God in the flesh.

            - I can illustrate the validity of the creation account.

            - I can show how actual events in that region/timeframe match what's described in Genesis 2-11 down to the number of centuries in between each and the impact each event had. (Cain's city, the flood, the dispersion of the people at Babel)

            - I can illustrate how archaeological evidence supports a fundamental change happening in human behavior that many beyond myself see as the emergence of the ego and how it's that same change that Genesis is describing as being introduced into the world through the creation of Adam. Changes that led to the first civilizations and that were first introduced through the arrival of people who 'came from the desert' in each dawning civilization from Sumer to Egypt to the Indus Valley to China.

            The rest I'm sure you're already familiar with as far as the impact on humanity, the religions it spawned, and all of that.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Sure, feel free to distort history as you see fit.

              1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image86
                HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I'm not distorting anything. I'm just not using personal biases to dismiss an ancient document of unknown origin that has a lot to say.

                1. 0
                  Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I find myself sympathetic to the bicameral mind theory, which I think is what you are describing.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)

                  However, I do think that you are applying it to biblical mythology more because it pleases you to do so than for any evidence.

                  1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image86
                    HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Bicameralism is new to me, but definitely something worth looking into from what little I just read. What I'm referring to is covered in great detail in a book by Steve Taylor called The Fall: The Insanity of the Ego in Human History and the Dawning of a New Era. I actually ran across that book while researching the 5.9 kiloyear event that transformed the Sahara into a desert and dispersed large populations of people in that region in all different directions. I was looking into the parallels of what happened there and the story of the tower of Babel in Genesis.

                    It describes the stark contrast between hunter/gatherer and early horticultural humans and that of 'civilized' humans. Early humans and many indigenous cultures in existence today shared a lot of similarities like sexual equality, a lack of class separation or the idea of one person being more important than the other, a lack of bashfulness over the human form and nudity, a lack of desire for possessions beyond what's needed or claiming ownership over land, and a lack of violence in general. That kind of thing.

                    The evidence is overwhelming. And I'm finding I'm not the only one that's beginning to see it. This started out as being for my own personal understanding, but as I began to realize that there's plenty of evidence to back this up I started to bounce this idea off of others to make sure I wasn't applying 'biblical mythology' out of my own need. I've since found that the evidence holds up to scrutiny.

                2. 0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  You're not using personal biases? Really?

                  1. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image86
                    HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    True, my faith is what led me here initially. But to verify its validity I removed myself from the equation. In fact, I removed the human element where ever possible, whether it be my own beliefs or others. I just acknowledge the significant impact the books of Moses have had on humanity and the fact that it's still unknown where exactly they come from other than originating in the cradle of civilization. So, I took Genesis, laid it side by side against known history, and compared. The evidence I've found since that supports this hypothesis of mine is staggering. Not to mention all the others I've run across that are beginning to see the same thing I do.

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Lol, God did use that opportunity to come to earth and showed us that He did exist through Jesus. 

        Yes, the clock is ticking.  A timebomb is ticking very quickly.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry Claire, there is no evidence of that.

    28. 59
      hmdrdiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry i dont want to hurt anyone but Prophet Eisa(Jesus) is not son of God.Jesus is prophet of God.God dont have any children.God is one.If Prophet Eisa(Jesus) come back to earth prophet will say that he is prophet of god not child and i can assure you Prophet Eisa(Jesus) will come back to earth at doomsday.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Sorry, I don't mean to hurt you but Allah is a pagan god.

    29. thisisoli profile image67
      thisisoliposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      If given proof of Mohammed would you convert to being Muslim?

      *Hint* There is much more proof regarding the existence of the prophet Mohammed than Jesus.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Interesting. You are correct in that there is more proof that Mohammed walked the earth, but no more proof that Mohammed was in anyway connect to God,

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I don't dispute the existence of Mohammed but I don't believe him.  He picked out Allah as the true god out of an array of moon gods.  Allah is a pagan god.  Now if I realized Allah was the true god, hypothetically, without any deception I wouldn't worship him.  Why? Because he has done nothing for mankind.  Jesus laid down His life for us.

    30. FlowOfThought profile image60
      FlowOfThoughtposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I don't currently reject him as my savior, I reject the notion of a need for salvation, and I also reject his existence, however, if it was proven in a reasonable manner that the son of god was in front of me, and I was, in fact a despicable piece of filth, of course I'm going to accept him, and avoid hell, who wouldn't?

      1. jacharless profile image82
        jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Which is precisely what is incorrect with the doctrine(s) and resulting in these kinds of emulations from the con. The thinking of it is off, thus every perspective regarding it is also off.

        After years of ministering this doctrine, to upwards of 10k people weekly, it occurred to me how inaccurate the teaching was. There is no Hell, no Debble. No one is a piece of filth -metaphorically or literally. If fact, the message is quite clear: salvation {restoration access to complete immortality} has come, and available to any and all, regardless of location, position, ideas and such.

        Yes, the emphasis is put on one man, who was the first to achieve this. But, as he himself said, he was just an example -a visual- if the term fits. Just because people see it or do not, does not change the reality of it; nor does it change the fact that each person has to do their part, from within them, to see that transformation happen. It also does not change the reality that doctrines are not required, nor a sit-on-hands attitude of he'll do it, we'll just wait. He'll prove it; he'll do the work.  The evidence of this 'salvation' can only happen in each person, individually.

        Above everything else, if the believing achieved this or even got close, not one atheist would exist. Going further, not one believer, religion, science would exist. They would experience that 'something', thus dismissing 'everything' else. Instead, excuses and fear are fed to the masses. It is perfectly logical the now anti-theist would reject it, until they see some sort of proof. Doctrine is a funny thing, yes? Based on much evidence by both sides of this equation, it is clearly obvious folk has missed it...

        James.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image89
          Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Further, if the believing did the things that Messiah did and greater things as he instructed them to do, there would be no atheists, religion, institutionalised Church, blah blah blah.

          But man prefers to invent doctrines, creeds, smokescreens, diversions, special anointings, ceremony, sensation, to hide what is accessible to all. They are like those who accept a form of godliness but deny its power; the ones that stand at the gates of the KOH to prevent anyone entering; the ones that weigh people down with burdens of law and do not move a finger to help them. Hundreds of years of obscuring our inheritance has caused unbelief to rule in our minds so that nobody any longer believes what the Messiah said.

          1. jacharless profile image82
            jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You said it! They deny access to it, because they do not have access to those greater things.
            Like the chap blocking your way from going into the grocer, because they feel it necessary to sell the idea of what's inside the store first. It is a distraction, a diversion. A shopping contract {terms & conditions} 10 kilometers long. Ultimately, a person completely loses interest and decides they're not hungry anymore or are better off eating from another rubbish bin. lol

            James.

            1. Disappearinghead profile image89
              Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              smile s in agreement.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image80
                A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Sowhat would that mean for us DH and why would such a wonderful messiah let it happen?

                1. Disappearinghead profile image89
                  Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  If people were doing the things Jesus did in large numbers then the last 2000 years would have been very different. Instead the Church took control, got more interested in infighting for power, and oppressed the masses. Jesus was in heaven, his job done, and left the Church to screw up.

                  1. udontnomi profile image61
                    udontnomiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Okay. Now what?

                  2. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Jesus job is not done! He works in this world through people.  He doesn't just sit back and watch the world.

      2. HeadlyvonNoggin profile image86
        HeadlyvonNogginposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        It's hard to discern what's true through the lense of human interpretation and influence (organized religion/peers/parents). So to remove that fallible and subjective element as best as possible, I look at it this way. If God is truly as described by the books of Moses, then He is the sole creator of existence. If He is the absolute truth that never changes, then His commandments, actions, and persona should be consistent with what can be observed in His creation. Through my fallible and subjective perspective, I see consistency.

        I see a parallel between the commandments and the Cambrian Explosion. The Cambrian Explosion happened approximately 542 million years ago and marks the transition from the Proterozoic to the Phanerozoic Eon. Though there's currently no explanation as to how it happened, this is where multi-celled organisms appeared where before all life was single-celled organisms. The root of every living thing today first appeared in this age and it's what made life as we know it now possible. Somehow, cells that still behaved much like the single-celled organisms that came before individually, exhibiting functions like homeostasis/metabolism/growth/adaptation/response to stimuli/reproduction, functioned together in such perfect unity that they seamlessly formed increasingly complex creatures, all working towards a common goal of sustaining the life of this collective community.

        This doesn't work if each cell doesn't behave just as it's meant to. The cell must adhere to what the DNA code dictates and perform the function it was made to perform. And it must act as one with the community by taking only what resources it needs, reproducing and dying when it receives the signal to do so. Individual wants cannot override the need of the community. The priority must be to respect the DNA code as the authority and to respect the needs of the community over the self. If these things are done, incredible things can be achieved.

        In a lot of ways, what's put forth in Genesis mirrors this. The creation account shows that everything in existence did exactly as God commanded. He just spoke and it happened. Then He creates Adam who doesn't adhere to the one thing he's told not to do. Adam and Eve chose their individual wants over what the authority commanded; the fruit looked delicious and there was wisdom to be gained. That's when it all started. That's when God began interceding where necessary because it wasn't necessary before. God's first action was to restrict access to the tree of life, thus imposing a limited lifespan.

        When a cell breaks protocol it becomes a cancer that endangers the organism. It no longer behaves as the authority (DNA) dictates, and it no longer reproduces or dies when it receives the signal to do so. It reproduces on its own, doesn't die, and the cells created from then on take on the same behavior. Before long it disrupts the functionality of other parts of the body, or robs other parts of the body of needed resources.

        The commandments given to the Israelites closely resemble the protocol that cells adhere to. They have everything to do with respecting God as the sole authority and respecting one another. In fact, when asked directly, Jesus reaffirmed this by saying that specifically. But with us, behavior isn't inherited. It must be taught and adhering is a choice.

        So, I say all of that to say this.... I don't see it as you or I or anyone else being a "despicable piece of filth". The capability to make our own choices of our own volition is an incredible gift. He wants us to have it. This gift is what makes humans what they are. Humans create incredible art and music and architectural structures and literature through this capability. But there's another side of that coin. That means we can also be just as destructive as creative. And humans have exhibited both creativity and destruction for thousands of years, and both of these traits can be traced back to the same time and place that early Genesis is set.

        The Cambrian Explosion was a monumental shift in the capability of life and what it could accomplish. In a lot of ways it appears, at least to me and my fallible perspective, that what was set forth in Genesis all the way through to the arrival of the savior is a way to accomplish this. It's not so much our behavior. It's accepting the protocol. If we can show we will do this, that we believe and acknowledge that God is the sole authority above all others, then we can participate in whatever this next monumental shift is going to be.

      3. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        One can't accept Jesus without true repentance.  Holding onto sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit.  One can acknowledge His existence as Satan does but that isn't the same as accepting. 

        We do need salvation from sin.  How many people live lift without doing anything wrong? Nada.  We cannot save ourselves from evil.

    31. Claire Evans profile image90
      Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Does anyone know how to format my comment so that the comment of the person I'm addressing doesn't disappear when they reply?

    32. lyndre profile image80
      lyndreposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I make my own decisions in life.I am my own saviour or devil. My decisions might be wrong but hey lifes a bitch.

    33. sparkster profile image93
      sparksterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Jesus is the son of God. Period. However, there is plenty of evidence which suggests that the establishment has purposely obscured the truth about Jesus Christ in order to mislead us away from and to protect the truth.  Religion has become purposely mythologized, just as the bible has and this has been done intentionally to obscure the real truth.

      Jesus didn't die on the cross, back in those days crucifixions were not literal and anyone who had been "crucified" so to speak would be facing death on the fourth day, they had been prepared for death by decree.  Resurrections could be performed by the high priest on the third day, not a literal resurrection but allowing the person to be crucified to be freed from the cross.

      A bit of research also shows how the cross/crucifix doesn't originate from Christianity at all.  The truth has intentionally been manipulated.

      1. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I hear that a lot but I've yet to see any convincing proof.



        What's your documentation on that?



        No Christian thinks the cross originated from Christianity. That's like the archeologist who finds the cup dedicated to Yahweh and His Astoreth and thinking they had made some discovery, no knowing that the Bible talked about the very same thing. It's not news to anybody, at least not to Christians.

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        The question is not if there is proof but what if there was proof. 

        You don't know what you are talking about.  The Romans very much practiced crucifixion as in nails through the wrists and as a form of the worst punishment for criminals.  HIstorians like Josephus wrote about crucifixions.

        http://www.roman-colosseum.info/roman-l … fixion.htm

        It was Emperor Constantine who abolished crucifixion in the Roman Empire.

        You need to provide sources about facing death on the forth days and high priests performing resurrections on the third day.  I've never heard those claims.

        The cross is not unique to Christianity.  A cross without a figure could be construed as pagan.  The crucifix is unique to Christianity, i.e, the figure of Jesus on the cross.

    34. barbie-laptop profile image60
      barbie-laptopposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Why doesn't He reveal Himself if He knows this would convert everyone and end all wars? Is He hiding because He doesn't really exist?

      1. A Thousand Words profile image80
        A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        You may be onto something Barbie laptop. X)

        Or He's playing games and isn't actually as benevolent as His benefactors think He is.

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Truth is, not everyone will convert when they see Jesus as the son of God.  Revelation testifies to that.  Some will despise Him for being the son of God.

        He will come again.

      3. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
        Kathryn L Hillposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        to allow us to have the independence which we ourselves want.

      4. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        It won't convert everyone! There are some on earth who know who He's the son of God and still reject Him.  When Jesus was on earth most didn't convert.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
          Kathryn L Hillposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          But he helped to change the world, Claire! and made it a much better place than it was or than it would be had he not come!!  Through the work of Christians who believed in what He taught... like Mother Theresa and other saints. (And even people all over the world today! )They had(and have) love for Jesus through what he told them.... because they were ( and are) receptive.

          Maybe he'll come back when we're all clapping for the encore!  (That is a brilliant analogy, if I do say so myself!)  What time is it in South Africa?  Is it hot there? It is still really hot here in California.  It has been way too hot for way too long!  Maybe Al Gore was right!?

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, but what I'm trying to say is that not everyone believed He was the son of God even though they saw what He did, heard Him preach and looked into His eyes. 

            Jesus' mention was to save us and become reunited with God.  His kingdom is not of this earth so the world isn't a better place.  The lives of those who love Him are better. 

            It's 10:09am in SA.  It's a lovely day.  It's been terribly cold but for the past few days the weather has been warming up.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
              Kathryn L Hillposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks for the report.  What is cold?  Its been in the 90's here!  and it is 1:54AM. Who do you know that does not think Jesus is the Son of God?  I have a problem with those who insist ( as catholics do) that he IS God and we must worship Jesus as God.  Even though I know Jesus is one with God, I go to God first. I think that is O. K., but some Christians don't. But don't all Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

              1. ihayaydin profile image60
                ihayaydinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                "They say that the Merciful has adopted a son. What an absurd thing that you have invented! It is well nigh that the heavens might crack and the earth split asunder and the mountains crumble down at this hideous thing that they should ascribe a son to the Merciful! It does not behoove the Merciful to adopt a son. All those who are in the heavens and the earth, are going to be presented before Him as servants, for He has encircled them and kept a strict account of them; everyone shall be presented before Him individually on the Day of Resurrection."
                surah maryam (88-95)

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks for letting us know.. thank you very much. Your sharing is very enriching to us.  Thanks again.  Maybe its the green birds, who're trying to deconvert Christians. ( Now I'm sorry to have doubted the Rad Man)

      5. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Aside from the fact that you can't hide if you don't exist... wink

        It wouldn't convert everyone. People who have felt His power and known His voice turn away. I don't know why. Actually, I do, because I tried to do that myself once, but He wouldn't let me go.

        I've often commented on the "burning bush syndrome." That's where people claim that if something undeniably miraculous were to happen (and a burning bush like the one Moses encountered is a frequently cited example) then of course they would believe! Well, that may be true for some but not for most. They would still search for another explanation. Most would deny it altogether.

        In the Bible, many people witnessed Jesus' miracles, and accepted Him as a Messiah. But they couldn't take what He was actually saying, and didn't like that the Messiah  they were expecting, a military leader who would kick the Romans out of Israel, wasn't who Jesus is. So they turned away. Not all  that different, really, from people who either don't understand or don't like what the Bible actually says and turn agains God because He doesn't do what they think He should do.

    35. 0
      whowasposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Does Claire, in some way, make money out of starting such a long standing, on-going, thread? Could I start a controversial thread and just watch the money roll in?

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
        Kathryn L Hillposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        No.  She has a mission. It is beyond money.     w a y    b e y  o   n     d

        1. Claire Evans profile image90
          Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          What's my mission?

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Lol, it doesn't work that way.  Scroll through the comments and most of the comments are discussions between others that I didn't start.

    36. waynet profile image47
      waynetposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No. I'll still be called Wayne!

    37. Max Shelley profile image59
      Max Shelleyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Before I say this let me say that I am not athiest or of any organized religion, I do believe that there is a higher power however I do not believe that it is god or a god, as being a god implies that it is a sentient being and an individual being, In my beliefs there is a higher power but it is simply the connection between all things in the universe that keeps it from simply falling apart. So by that logic, if jesus came to earth and I wouldn't need proof that he was the 'son' of the universe as we all are in a way we all are individual parts of the whole. HOWEVER I would not find jesus as my savior, because while I believe he did exist and was more than likely a great man, he was just that a man, and maybe even the savior of alot of people, but no more than any other hero of old.

      1. unitify profile image80
        unitifyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        You say you believe Jesus existed and was more than likely a great man.  But Jesus said the only way to the Father was through Him. So do you believe Jesus was also a lier?

        1. Max Shelley profile image59
          Max Shelleyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          It is possible, as I said he was a man, but I am more inclined to believe that he meant it metaphorically. Though it is also possible that he used that as a manipulation in order to save the people that he did. In this world it is IMPOSSIBLE to do as great things as Jesus is known for without getting your hands dirty.  and before you go accusing me of tarnishing Jesus' good name, I believe that whatever he did, no matter how questionable was for the good of the people who looked up to/worshiped him. The world is not black and white, and it is in that grey area that most wise men live.

        2. Max Shelley profile image59
          Max Shelleyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          allow me to add to this however there is a big difference between a man who uses a well placed lie to quicken the process of saving thousands of people and a liar, while the one who saved people may have lied, he lied for them while the liar lies to advance his own power for his own benefit.

        3. jacharless profile image82
          jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Through Him is not a literal meaning, as in going to him first, else he becomes Creator.
          Through him means because of the work he did on their behalf, the Intervention.

          And yes, he and the Father are one. Not meaning the same individual, but rather united.
          If you read what he says, you understand you and the Father are one.
          Therefore, as he and the Father are one, you are one in him as well.
          Versus turning a man into a god, like some pagan worshiper.

          Explains why for +2048 Hebrew calendar years, people are not getting the message, not manifesting that indwelling called the Kingdom of Heaven, and dieing one after another.

          Has the Feast of Firstfruits been in vane? One wonders.

          James.

      2. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
        Kathryn L Hillposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        We can be still and know that we are of God. We are a drop in the ocean of spirit. Through scientific meditation, we can comprehend God within Us. If thine eye be single thy whole body will be full of light. Jesus' teachings were explained by an Indian Yogi named Paramahansa Yogananda who understood the Science of Religion. His guru Sri Yukteswar, wrote a book with that title. This is for those who are interested in truly finding reality and not just showing up to argue, which appears to be the newest sport. I am just stopping by for a second. Bye again.

  2. aguasilver profile image88
    aguasilverposted 4 years ago

    Rather a misnomer question, as Christ told us already that no further proof will be offered, and that His next appearance would be definitive, and very final.

    Anybody around when Christ returns will be too late to form opinions, and I think Titens response is pretty much what the average reply would be.

    To get proof, you need belief, no belief, no proof given.

    As some folk are incapable or unwilling to enter into belief without proof first, it's a closed loop, or as my excel sheet would say 'circular reference'.

    When Christ does return, 'proof' will be a redundant aspect, as according to scripture His arrival will be seen by everyone on the planet at that time, and I have no doubt that proof as currently defined will be superfluous.

    1. 0
      jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Religion is the act of worshipping a creed or deity in which one has mistakenly attributed supernatural powers. 'True Believers' are also known as schizophrenic or having a neurological disorder in scientific, medical, or sane circles. It was invented by tribal leaders at least 2 million years ago in order to control and financially exploit the citizenry and in the Western proper World was still going strong until the separation of Church and State. In the 3rd or improper World it's business as usual. Typically god is portrayed as a giant bearded man in the sky that flies around granting wishes, but there are some variations.

      1. aguasilver profile image88
        aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Interesting, you managed to post a reply that neither addresses my post, or the topic, and shows nothing but your desperate minds desire to avoid reality.

        Sure glad you are not my surgeon.

        1. 0
          jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Delusion is your reality.

        2. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Believing unproven garbage because you are scared is not reality. It may be your personal, internal reality, but your position that your god wants sheeple to believe nonsense with no evidence is rather silly.

          Feel free to keep grovelling - why do you feel the need to keep attacking those of us that prefer to think? Iz that what your majik book tells you to do - or does it tell you to shake the dust from your feet?

          LAWL

          Will it be "too late" for me when I am dead?
          Will it be "too late" when Jesus comes back?
          Was it "too late" for Ernest?
          What will the Big Bad Jesus do to me?
          Do you get off on threatening in his name?

          Will you dance around and say you are not allowed to judge again? Despite your pronouncements that it will be "too late."

          No wonder your religion causes so many wars. sad

          1. aguasilver profile image88
            aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KijgS9tqTzs/TVMeFjtQ9JI/AAAAAAAAI-w/R6o-7TOzzmc/s400/3M.jpg

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Yes - I can see why the hard questions bother you. I don't blame you - blind faith and threats are sort of hard to reconcile with a loving god that wants you to think.

              Must be hard for you to still love a god that is punishing Ernest as well. sad

              I forgive you.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Flipping the coin is deceitful Mark.

                You stated God doesn't exist.

                Now you say God is punishing Ernest.

                Which is it now?

                Logic processor slipping or?

                Like to start 'splainin' what that's about?

                smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry you don't understand. I can see why you wouldn't though. These concepts are hard to grasp even for well educated people.

                  I said "it must be hard for you to still love a god that is punishing Ernest."

                  Not a problem for you though is it? Shed a few crocodile tears and you are good to go. wink

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    "...love a god that is punishing Ernest."

                    You mean God exists then and is punishing Ernest?

                    I never heard the judgement on that soul. Did you?

                    But I agree God exists.

                    wink

      2. skye2day profile image86
        skye2dayposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Perhaps if they had proof they would convert. That would not make them a Christian. One must believe in Jesus Christ and repent of sin to be born again into the Kingdom of God. Would the atheist convert to Christianity and repent of sin? I do not know. Many of them have hardened hearts.

        If the atheist would check out the scientific evidence that Jesus Christ is, was and will always be then there would be allot fewer atheist, if this is what they are really wanting. Maybe they do not want to know because inside of everyone there is a longing to know. Pride I suppose. Men of science trying to prove the Bible wrong and found though science and evidence, besides their that God is real and HIS miracles, signs, wonders are all true as recorded in the Bible. Discovery channel has a couple of shows per year, lasting a couple of weeks at a time. If an athiest saw only one half of the shows and did not turn to Jesus they would be a big fool, doomed.

        One day every tongue will confess and every knee will bow Romans 14:11 The problem is atheists don't believe in God, therefore they don't believe they will have to bow. All we can do is to continue to love them as Christ does, and pray that one day they will make the choice to come to Christ, before it is too late.

    2. Gaizy profile image93
      Gaizyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      You say  "as according to scripture His arrival will be seen by everyone on the planet at that time" - Which scripture? There are well over a hundred mainstream religions in the world. They all have their scriptures. They all offer the same (lack of) proof that their religion is the true one, their god the only one etc. Without self referencing (i.e. "because my god/holy book says"...) what makes your particular scriptures the truth and the others not?

      1. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Uh huh.

        Since we're talking about Jesus, it's pretty safe to assume that the Scriptures referenced would be the Bible, as opposed to Mithras, Zoroaster, Islam, Buddhims, Hinduism or Raliens.

        1. Gaizy profile image93
          Gaizyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          The question was "what makes your particular scriptures the truth and the others not?"

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            The question was, "Which scripture?" That was the one you asked and the one I answered.

            What makes "my" particular Scripture truth is that it was given by God. The proof is the number of prophecies that were fulfilled.

            1. 0
              Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              When you write, "The proof is the number of prophecies that were fulfilled," presumably you are writing about non-trivial, non-self-fulfilling prophecies that exist in sufficient number to be persuasive.

              A few examples, please.

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Which of the Bible's prophecies were self-fulfilling?

                Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the Temple.

                1. 0
                  Chasukposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  That is one example, both trivial and arguably self-fulfilling.

                  I'm looking for an example like this one:

                  "Ten years from now, a blind albino nun, born in Miami but raised in Kraków, will become President of the United States in a landslide election."

                  Such a prophecy would meet meets the test of specificity, meaning that it isn't just a general "it will rain" or "there shall be famines, and pestilences."

                  It meets the test of completeness, meaning that it describes things that if they were all true together would be unlikely coincidence.

                  It meets the test of remarkableness, meaning that it describes an event that, if it occurred, would be incontestably remarkable.

                  It isn't self-fulfilling. Predicting this isn't going to make it true. No amount of foresight or collusion could make this happen.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I'll get back to you on the rest, but please argue the self-fulfillment of Jesus' prophesying the destruction of the Temple.

            2. Gaizy profile image93
              Gaizyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Lol - That's what they all say.

              1. 61
                nonto21posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                There are some very weak arguments in the theological debate, none of which have any merrit. The weakest one yet; "I know it's true because I can feel it in my heart".

              2. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                LOL -

                As opposed to what you all say?

                Just curious.

    3. jonnycomelately profile image85
      jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

       

      If you have proof, you don't need belief.
      If you need to believe, you have no proof.

      So Claire's question is totally irrelevant.  God cannot be proven.  The exact life and times and activities of that man called Jesus cannot be proven.  So in each case you have belief or you don't have belief.  It stops there.

      "I AM."  Alive now.  Breathing now.  Typing on a computer now.  Smiling now - why? because of all the heated debate that will arise out of these few lines I have written.

      Have a good day NOW, christians.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        The proof I'm talking about is God appearing to us through Jesus and us having a realization because of Him.

        1. Eugene Hardy profile image61
          Eugene Hardyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I have to agree that God can not be proven, and that if God can not be proven then people of their free will should choose their own path spiritually. 

          I made the choice to seek God out, but found that God is not in Christianity or Jesus - I find both to be suspect and I refuse to trust my soul to such institutions.

          Spirituality is individual.

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            God can be proven to the individual not to others.  That is their choice whether to seek or not.  How did you find out that God is not in Christianity?

            1. Eugene Hardy profile image61
              Eugene Hardyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              No offense, but as I have mentioned before I did not find room for enlightenment or as you would say 'divine knowledge'.  I did not find in my heart the desire to worship Christ, nor did I feel comfortable pretending to be Christian just to fit in.  The short time I tried out Christianity I've found that I had become a liar not only to Christians, but to myself and God, (but I do not believe you can hide from God, so what's the point!)  I decided if I'm to truly find God I must do it truthfully and find it from within myself.

              I think it is time for me to move along now, I will no longer grace this forum.

              Have a blessed life.

              Eugene Hardy

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Eugene, what is it about Christ that doesn't appeal to you?

                How did you feel that you felt compelled to lie as a Christian?  Who is your God? Please answer these questions which you repeatedly evade: Why does one achieve godhood and what attributes would he/she have?

          2. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Spirituality may be individual but God is very real. How did you find that God is "not in Christianity or Jesus?"

        2. jonnycomelately profile image85
          jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          It's been obvious for a very long time, Claire, that you are locked into the "Jesus Trait."  You cannot expand your mind beyond that narrow construct of your own religion. 

          Eugene and others have tried to let you see infinite potential in your relationship with "god."  I have also pointed to the "god within," which I do understand was the real message of that human being called Jesus.

          When you direct the whole of your thinking into your own personal vision of that "Jesus," and place you hopes and aspirations onto "his" shoulders, or anyone outside of your "self," then you are not facing your own inner knowledge and strength.  More than this, to claim such a relationship with your "Personal Saviour" is a very selfish motivation.  It attempts to put yourself into a "better than others" position.  "I am saved by Jesus, you are not."

          In your person resides the center of your universe.  In some ways like the center of a wheel, the point of the wheel which does not move, you can go into  your self, your center, to find peace, awareness, still-ness, one-ness with everything and every person around you.  When you then know how you relate to the world, you will love it.  You will love being one with it, not separated.

          "One can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink."  If and when you desire to look along the lines which I have expressed here, then you will do so.  Until then, you will continue to wear blinkers. (These are the leather attachments you put on a horse's bridle, so it can't see more than what is directly in front of it.)

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            lol Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh.  I do not know how many times I have to explain the context of "god within".  Why would I gloat about being saved and other's not? It takes humility to realize one is nothing by themselves and recognizes the need for a saviour.  Someone with an ego is someone who thinks there is a god within.   

            Why do you think I don't have peace? I do not put my faith in this world because Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world", so you can keep your oneness in the world, thank you.

            1. jonnycomelately profile image85
              jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              How pathetic that you should imagine a "god" that has no ears, because that "god" has no physical body, can "hear" your prayers.

              Your responses to me and others who simply ask you to think outside of your current understandings are totally unintelligent and lack that "humility" which you speak of in that you refuse to entertain any other possible way of thinking.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this



                Huh?




                Why should I entertain other outlooks when I have the right one and when I can see just who wants me to believe it? Satan uses unsuspecting people to try and coax me out of my Christianity and into New Age.  I'm not saying you are evil, Peter was used as a tool, too, but I know where your comment came from.

                1. jonnycomelately profile image85
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I very much doubt it!

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    She has been very well indoctrinated. She is convinced any opposition to her believe is an attempt from Satan to tempt her. It's sad, what someone had done to her trapping her in her own mind.

      2. 60
        puellaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        definition of proof?

        1. jonnycomelately profile image85
          jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I don't know that there is a definition of proof, Puella.   Maybe, thinking aloud, the answer lies in that word definition..... defining.
          We can only define if something has the attributes which can be defined.  In term of our physical, finite (same base again) lives on Planet Earth, I can be aware of something and my relationshipt to that something when I can see it; hear it; feel it; smelll it; taste it.
          Some will speak of a "knowing" without the benefit of our physical senses.   This might be a "sixth" sense, but I suspect it is simply an enhancement of sound or touch or smell.
          One can use mathematics to "prove" something, i.e., the mathematical workings can be repeated ad infinitum by anyone else and the result turns out the same.   That is regarded as truth.
          The ability to convince one or a number of people of a particular point of view is considered by some to be proof.  But is it?  The problem with this is that if you change your point of view, then what one perceives changes.

  3. 0
    jomineposted 4 years ago

    The theist

    The theist is a man, woman or, in rare cases, mole person, who have discovered the secret to life, the universe and everything.
    They use this knowledge to get promotions at work, heal themselves, and generally be dicks to everyone else.
    It is a known truth that the spirits of theists will enter paradise when they die. There are many different kinds of theists who all hate each other, so presumably paradise has some form of segregation system enforced by Ghost Busters.

    Powers
    The theists have a host of special powers which allow them to rise above the status of mere mortal. Some of these include:
    Ear flaps
    Little is known about the anatomical features of the theist. However, it has been scientifically proven that all true theists have tiny ear flaps that cover the ear drum and protect them from the negative comments of others.
    Sometimes these flaps develop later in life, often at times of crisis or depression, but most theist are born with them.
    When activated, the theists become instantly impervious to logic, rebounding even the most persuasive rational argument with ease.

    Guiding voices
    When confronted with problems, theists often hear the voice of an omnipotent being/s telling them what to do and "showing them the way".
    In other circles these people are called shamans, mediums or BAT-SHIT CRAZY, but not theists. This is based on the principle that millions of people doing the same thing cannot possibly be wrong.
    Surprisingly, this is also the reason the AIDS virus has become so popular in certain countries.

    Miracles
    Possibly the most powerful ability of all, miracles allow theists to get anything, anywhere, any time they want.
    Examples of miracles:
    The virgin mary statue crying real tears was witnessed by millions from around the world. The statue is now being put to good use supplying third world countries with desperately needed water.
    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120206092044/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/1/13/Explosion.jpg/150px-Explosion.jpg
    A non-believer spontaneously combusting after mocking a priest

    http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Theist

  4. 0
    jomineposted 4 years ago

    The surest way to tell that Allah is imaginary is that his followers say that he has not "begotten". In other words he doesn't have children. This is preposterous. How could Allah be the real God if Jesus is not his son? How could he deserve worship if he did not sacrifice his son for our sins? The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the Son of God. Ergo, if this Allah character doesn't have children, then he isn't God. It's pure logic, really.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image85
      jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      By the way, did Jesus pass on his DNA ?

      1. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        NO, He didn't.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You don't know that.

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Yeah, we do.

            The Bible is reliable, but even if it were "just a bunch of books by some guys," the royal house of Jesus would not have failed to rear its head and try to claim the throne. That's simply  the way history and humans work. And if Dan Brown did magically work out for the early church to slaughter anybody who might have been the son of Jesus, others would have claimed it anyway.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              How could the bible possible be reliable? You have four different version of the same events. Somebodies at one time decided which text to include. Who gave them the right to decide for us which text to read. The bible is only reliable because you want it to be, look at it critically and you will see it for what it is.

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Actually, the "four different versions" works in favor of the reliability argument. I've said before that having multiple witnesses actually adds credibility, differences mean that actual people actually saw things. There are no serious differences between the Gospels.

                You deserve a better explanation, but I don't have the time right now. Remind me later.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  You know as well as I that the writers of the gospels were not direct witnesses.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I know that Luke was not a direct witness.

                    The other three, I know no such thing.

  5. 0
    jomineposted 4 years ago

    Faith is a group VI reverse transcribing DNA virus that is responsible for the human mental disorder called religion, which is the chronic form of the lesser affliction called gullibility. Symptoms range widely among the diseased and can include headaches, nausea, suggestibility, lack of reason, hallucinations, paranoia, euphoria, depression, and genocidal tendencies. Humans are the only known host of the virus. Other animals may not have the necessary brain capacity for self-delusion.

  6. Gaizy profile image93
    Gaizyposted 4 years ago

    But of course - If there was definitive proof (not just everyone "realising") - Why would Atheists not accept it. But without such proof, he is just another of the thousand or so god/religions who claim to be the REAL one.

    1. Claire Evans profile image90
      Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I mean accepting Him as there savior not just knowing He is the son of God.  There is a difference.  Demons professed Jesus to be the son of God but they sure haven't accepted Him as their savior.

  7. pisean282311 profile image58
    pisean282311posted 4 years ago

    since death of jesus none have been able to proof what u claim..If u can prove that surely u would get NOBEL PEACE PRIZE for settling issue once and for all...It would bring peace atleast on religious terrorism front...

  8. 0
    Emile Rposted 4 years ago

    Well, proving Jesus as the son of God would entail an awful lot. Because God would first have to prove he was God.

    So, if God appeared..explained how he created everything....showed clear evidence that only he was there at the beginning of the universe... Nothing exists that he didn't create...was able to explain the madness of the Old Testament in a manner where all could see why it was necessary to begin in such a heinous manner...explain why mankind needed to subjugate women during those times...detailed the exact manner that the virgin birth was possible. Showed how the miracles were performed and how humans can, indeed, move mountains, explain how the resurrection was possible...explained hell in a manner that it seemed fair and equitable...explained why the church was allowed to oversee the atrocities over the centuries..................Sure. I could imagine the possibility that I could consider accepting Jesus as a savior. But, that's a lot of explaining to do.

    1. aguasilver profile image88
      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Forget it, you just talked yourself out of the position. smile

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        What position would that be?

        1. aguasilver profile image88
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Figure it out, you are a smart lady.

  9. nhaynes profile image60
    nhaynesposted 4 years ago

    We are ALL the children of "God" ... Brothers and sisters, and cousins through our lineage back to the beginning of our time ... Unfortunately, most of we humans, do not have enough respect for one another to tolerate the beliefs of the other ... and the braver of us (more stubborn more like) insist that ALL think and believe as they do, some of those are so insistent that they push this practice to the point of violence ... and for the record ...there are just as many "Christians" who live that way as there are "Non-Christians"..... ^sigh^ Our brother Jesus taught Love ... Our brother Buddha taught Enlightenment ... Our brother Muhammed taught that there was one "God" .....So how did we, the students and decendents add "Love" + "Enlightenment" + there is only one "God" to equal so much hatred and violence?
    Is the answer as simple as the nose on our face? Is the answer Ignorance? ^sigh^ Walking away ...shaking my head ...

    Have a great weekend

    1. vector7 profile image60
      vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      John 13:13

      Christ said He was Lord, not brother.

      John 14:6

      Christ said He was the only way to God.

      Luke 12:51

      Christ said He didn't come for us to agree, but to disagree. Not peace, but division between those who accept Him, Jesus Christ, and those who do not.

      Good intentions, but dipiction of Christ's teaching incorrect.

      I do believe in love though. Kindness, gentleness.

      But Christ is the only way. Period.

      There are many more just as loyal as I. Hence, the division.

      1. 0
        AKA Winstonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Catch-22, Chapter 27, page 309:

        "You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You're dangerous and depraved, and you ought to be taken outside and shot!"

        Catch-22, Chapter 29, page 335:

        "that's the way things go when you elevate mediocre people to positions of authority."

        Amen!

        1. vector7 profile image60
          vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, we already know "Catch-22" is your "holy" book.

          Seems faith comes in every fashion of opinion.

          smile

      2. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Not often we agree whateveryournameisthatyouneedtohide, yes - division is what your religion brings, and along with it hatred, ill will and violence.

        1. vector7 profile image60
          vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Well, I, [ Daniel Buchanan, for the twentieth time ] agree to disagree. [memory slip?]

          It seems you are the one with demands here Mark.

          wink

  10. nhaynes profile image60
    nhaynesposted 4 years ago

    "Man" wrote the Bible ... which by the way ... has been changed through the years a multitude of times by "Man" ...

    ...but ...if you insist ... the words of "Man" that quote Jesus;

    Jesus said, "Who is My mother and who are My Brothers . . . Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother" (Matthew 12:48-50).

    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:34-35)

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Conditional then? To be his brother - I have to do what exactly? And if I don't - what then?

      This was supposedly said to the disciples. How does that apply? Are you a disciple?

      1. 0
        ScottHoughposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Hey Mark are you an atheist or Buddhist, or both?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Zen atheist. big_smile

      2. nhaynes profile image60
        nhaynesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Allegedly by following the 10 commandments ...

        ...something else that was written by "Man"

        Me a disciple ...No ...

        Just volunteering a couple of contradictions ...

        one author writes that Jesus is "Lord" and another ...between the same set of front and back book covers mind you... writes that Jesus is  conditionally Brother

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          LOL - the "will of my father in heaven" is a bit broader than the 10 rules.

          Not eating shellfish comes to mind. big_smile

          1. nhaynes profile image60
            nhaynesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Not eating shellfish, keeping dairy separate ... all of that was written and decided by "Man" ...Religious leaders ...

            Humans just couldn't seem to be nice so they came up with a multitude of rules to control the people, beginning with the 10 commandments. Then later adding the Mosaic Laws, made up and written by Moses, his brother Aaron, and a few other male leaders of the time, allegedly after having been given permission by "God".

    2. vector7 profile image60
      vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Matthew 10:34 and already noted above Luke 12:51.

      Your verses are verses but that doesn't nullify the parts you choose to pick and peck.

      And Matthew 12:48 is a reference to "family" as in children of God.

      He is not "leveling" Himself with us. He is sinless, we are not. He came to be humble, by God and His servants He will be exalted.

      He specifically stated He was Lord. And He is.

      Every knee shall bow..

      LORD

      smile

    3. 61
      augustine72posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No Nhaynes the Bible has not change. See this link and know the truth.

      http://christiandebunker.blogspot.in/p/ … anged.html

  11. 0
    ScottHoughposted 4 years ago

    I think that everyone here respects your right to share your ideas with us. These conversations are very worthy for all involved, atheists, Buddhists, Christians, et al.

    "I just gave you the thoughts of an atheist. I don't care one whit what you believe as long as you keep it in your head where it belongs."

    "Sorry you didn't understand. It is your belief. Remember? I don't believe any such nonsense. I do see why you are so aggressive though. Not to mention brave."

    These statements are really unfair Mark. Speaking about Chistianity with an Zen Atheist should not devolve into, "... keep it in your head where it belongs." and "...not to mention brave."

    Beliefs that I react this way to include when a salesman arrives at my door with the belief that I should pay them $1000 for a vacuum cleaner. Then I might bust out the, "... keep it in your head where it belongs." But in a religious forum, where the discussion is encouraged, you are just being hurtful.

    These people could be out doing drugs or committing crime. Instead, they are contemplating their morality and religion. So what man? I mean so what? Are they pounding on your front door demanding that you convert? Are they trying to grift you or rip-off taxpayers or anything? Give them the credit they deserve. You are obviously a pretty able guy, you didn't gain all your knowledge without learning from others. They're trying dude. Give them a break.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No, they are not trying at all. What a one sided approach you have taken. I personally do not think all ideas deserve respect. Sorry.

      You wouldn't be a believer would you?

  12. 0
    ScottHoughposted 4 years ago

    Sorry man, I'm not brave enough for you. You scare me.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Don't be silly - it is the internet - you can be as brave as vector any day of the week. lol

      1. vector7 profile image60
        vector7posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Still