The person will live out the personage of his identity...
Thus what else would an atheist do?
In my experience on another site, most of the trolls on that site were religious. I can't speak for this site because I believe most if not all established posters here to be genuine.
I kind of have to agree with Jesus somewhat. I think many of us are genuine. There are a couple that take it too far though in my opinion. At some point I think they forget that what they are doing is exactly what they are against. I don't believe in God, I try to understand those who do. Sometimes that gets taken the wrong way.
Well, as an atheist troll myself, I like to confront superstition and bigotry when I see it. A lot of people say that religious belief (or any supernatural belief) is OK as long as you keep it private and it doesn't affect others. The problem is, that type of thinking invariably affects others. Laws are enacted every day based on religious beliefs:
criminalization of homosexuality
gay marriage bans
stem cell research bans
stickers on text books
funding for faith based organizations
religious statutory holidays
god on money
sentencing addicts to religious 12 step programs
And those are just off the top of my head.
I don't consider you, or peeples, or Jesus, trolls. You are forceful in your expression, and unapologetic, but you never go out of your way to taunt or belittle. We have trolls in the HubPages forums -- I won't name name -- and they are defined more by their pleasure in stirring things up, and by their frequently nasty arrogance, then by anything else. It is these people that I don't understand.
I understand that you disagree with the political and social agendas of many Christians. Clarify for me. Are you saying it's "not OK" to have a belief in God? Or is what sometimes results not OK? Should we be stamped out in some way? What's your goal when you confront superstition and bigotry? What constitutes superstition and bigotry? How did you arrive at the conclusion there is no God? (I understand agnosticism better than atheism.)
Let me be clear. I am genuinely curious about atheism. My goal in this thread is to listen. I am not interested in convincing anyone of my belief in God or try to defend the actions of other people. I have decided not to argue the existence of God in this conversation.
I want to put my opinion in on this, I'm sure it isn't all atheist with my beliefs though. In a sense Christianity even when kept to one's self effects others. Through their voting and things they support and when it comes down to it our laws. No religion should be mixed with our laws. I don't think things that have a religious back ground should be voted on because there is a lot of hate in many Christians for things they consider part of the bible. That same hate has suppressed (sp?) many groups. When I speak with a Christian it is usually to try to get them to understand that while it is find for them to have those views it is not right for them to force them on other groups. (gays a good example at the moment). So there is my 2 cents, hope you don't mind I put them here!
Living in a pluralistic society, a society in which everybody gets to play, is so messy isn't it? No, I don't mind, interesting. I hear Christians say the same thing; something is being forced on them that they don't think is right or healthy for the nation. Christians worry that new laws will force them to compromise sincerely held beliefs. While on the other hand, people who hold opposite beliefs seek new protection under the law. How do we compromise? I think some of the answers lie in the first amendment. My friend Wayne Jacobsen works with these issues in school. He has a great paper on Common Ground Thinking in on his Bridge Builders website: http://www.bridge-builders.org/CommonGround.html. Read it if your curious. I used in in a graduate paper I wrote once.
"Christians worry that new laws will force them to compromise sincerely held beliefs." Twas ever thus. Slavery, subjugation of women (i.e., not allowing the the vote or to work outside the home), and polygamy were all "sincerely held beliefs" that modern society has forced them to abandon, and I dare say most people would say that's a good thing. Modernity always wins out eventually. In some issues it takes longer than others, but it always wins. I predict gay marriage, for example, will be fully legal throughout the US within 20 years.
In the case of gay marriage, though, no one's rights or beliefs are being made illegal. You're extending rights to a group of people, rather than taking away a right (or more specifically, a liberty) from a group of people. So there's a big difference between that and, say, polygamy.
I don't really have a choice in whether people believe in gods or not, so it's really immaterial whether I think it's OK or not. What I'm saying is that ALL unreasonable beliefs are harmful, some more than others. Example: Survivorman Les Stround said on his web site in reference to something else that he picked up a waterborne parasite. Rather than having a doctor treat it with antibiotics, he tried a homeopathic remedy (which doesn nothing) and was sick for a year. A YEAR. Belief in the efficacy of homeopathy is an unreasonable belief, and he suffered for it. Granted, you and I didn't suffer because of it, but how many parents treat their kids homeopathically? Or don't vaccinate?
Should religious believers be "stamped out?" No, of course not. People should be free to believe in what they want to believe. But the flip side of that is that people of my ilk will vigorously try to educate people about the evils of unreasonable (including religious) belief, especially when those beliefs inform their interactions in the secular world. Example: it's relatively harmless to believe something like "God is love," but another to believe homosexuals are sinful and shouldn't be allowed to marry each other or make love. (Sodomy is still illegal in Ohio, where I live)
I should write a hub about this, but I didn't arrive at the conclusion that there was no god. I never arrived at the conclusion that there was a god. My parents are/were believers, but never indoctrinated me in their beliefs.
Just a side note of testimony. I had parasites hosting in my liver since I was a young child and not discovered until I was almost 38 years old. By then a 1/3 of my liver was gone. The doctors did not know it was a parasite and I had two OGBYN, two Indocronologies, a liver specialist and a general practitioner all raise their hands up and told me to try Mayo Clinic. I went to natural healer....that I trust and know.....we discovered what the cause was and fixed it with homeopathy medicine. HOMEOPATHY SAVED MY LIFE! I think what you may see as unreasonable or outlandish is all in the eye of the beholder!
If none of the physicians know the cause of your symptoms, how did the homeopathy doctor know? Did he do any tests or did he simply say that was the cause?
Weird - if you knew and trusted the natural healer - why didn't you go there first?
Thank you for making the case for America's Christian-based Constitutional laws!
Even atheists know the truth about that (whether they willingly admit or inadvertently).
"I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth." - Albert Einstein
I'm just wondering what, exactly, you mean.
As someone who moderated a 'Religion' forum for several years, I identify 'trolls' as people, who join a site, purely to stir things up and cause trouble ~ usually anonymously. I haven't noticed this sort of activity on here, but maybe that is because I don't spend an awful lot of time in the forums.
What I have noticed is that some people seem to just respond disrespectfully to others, if they have a different mindset.
Some people seem to think that it's ok to tell others that they are stupid / foolish / ignorant, etc, in a rather impolite manner. That's not being a troll, it's just being rude and disrespectful.
The problem is that, if one looks at the Bible and sees that it lacks logic and is full of unpleasantness, then it is hard not to become frustrated with people who tell you that it is correct, backed up by science, etc, etc, and then go on to tell you that, by not believing, you are not only foolish, but are likely to go to Hell.
Religion is one of those subjects that stirs up a lot of emotion. But there are some people, who have just decided not to get emotional, but to state clearly and simply that they do not believe in God, or Hell, or the Bible. They think that Bible stories makes no sense; they think that the Bible is full of fairy tales about magic and nonsense and that anyone who believes such nonsense must be not only wrong, but foolish. Now, there is logic to this, but it is, quite obviously, very insulting to Believers.
But it is also insulting to tell atheists and agnostics that they deserve hell and are stupid to reject Biblical truths.
It's a very difficult situation. The best thing is to set down ground rules, before embarking on conversations: ie. whatever the subject, no inflammatory or insulting vocabulary.
I hear your reasons for not embracing Christianity and its Bible. What are your reasons for rejecting the existence of God? Again, not interested in debate. Really want to know.
I'm not an atheist. I haven't found any real evidence for the existence of God, but there are still many unexplained mysteries and 'God' may, possibly, in some form, be in there, somewhere. I don't know.
So you'd describe yourself as an agnostic then? I understand the agnostic point of view much, much better than the atheists. Though I don't hold the existence of God to be a mystery, so many things about him, about life, about people I hold out as a question and a mystery. I can relate to your experience.
I am so curious about the journey that leads a person to a certainty that there is no God.
"I am so curious about the journey that leads a person to a certainty that there is no God."
Feel free to check out my page if you haven't for how I became an atheist. I did a whole hub on it. I know many others who have been down a similar road and many who had perfect childhoods and became atheist. I have the same question for my husband all the time. I really don't understand how he believes in God.
Again putting my 2 cents where they weren't asked for
No I am not. I am really interested in what people think. I have no interest in convincing people to think like me on the internet. What a waste of time!
Think like you?
If that is what you think, then WHY post or even respond to my post? You make no sense.
Let's get one thing straight, no one is going to think "like" you. They might have similar views in some aspects and most likely have things which you disagree with.
However, having said that, I find your statement, which I asked if you were joking, ridiculous.
There's enough common sense for one person to draw a logical and rational conclusion that a G/god doesn't exist. And, just in case you have issue with that, then dispute these two statements:
(a) Life doesn't require any knowledge of any G/god to be understood.
(b) Life doesn't require any knowledge of any G/god to be lived.
The above is TRUTH just in case you didn't know.
I know they won't. That's why I came to learn. If you've got truth by the tail, fine. Why do you ridicule me? Why do you seem angry? Are you a .... gasp... troll?
Cagsil, you didn't read her previous posts in this thread.
Is there a difference between an Atheist troll and a Christian troll?
There are plenty of both, everywhere.
OK Chasuk. Sorry I kinda subverted your original question to learn a little more about atheists. Peeples I did read your hub. Thanks. Here's what I've learned so far about the journey towards believing there is no God or probably not:
1. Disagreement with Christians over political and social issues.
2. Bitter experience with Christians of some sort.
3. The conclusion that the Bible is illogical, violent and mythical.
4. The problem of pain: Why would an all powerful God allow painful and unjust things to happen?
5. I get the feeling most of you are more agnostics than atheists. There isn't sufficient evidence for you that there is a God. Is anybody SURE there is not God. If so, where does that certainty come from.
Interesting, Peeples your hub read like a Agnostic/Atheist testimony. In other words, your conclusions about God's existence come from your own life experience. Christians call it our "testimony" when we tell the story of how we came to believe in God and to accept Christs life/death/life as an antidote for our sin. Soooooo.....
I wonder if our answer as to whether there is a God or not comes out of our own life experience more than anything else. It's subjective. Empiricists would say that we can prove he doesn't exist because he can not be perceived in any way by our senses. Some folks believe there are other ways of knowing. I wonder if anything can be gained by debating his existence? Perhaps treating the question like a court case is better. Maybe it's better to listen, really listen, to testimonies pro and con. Maybe we find him or don't find him in our stories. Interesting day friends!
Like I said earlier I know many who have had great childhoods and from an early age knew there was no God. In all aspects they were born atheist. As for me I was born in a so called Christian family, turned agnostic, and have settled (after many years of searching) on being atheist. I just can not accept there being a God. I can't find any logic in any of it. Now that being said, some consider me agnostic but to me they are just words. If there is a God and he spoke to me I would believe he existed but would still not claim him, based on life experiences. I do know one thing. I have an awesome Christian husband who has explained things in a 100 ways and I still do not believe. So as much as I try to understand I know it will never change my belief. I just like seeing things from another point of view. The only time I find myself being rude to a Christian is whne they accuse me of being something I am not or just are plain rude first. I wish more Christians would try to understand people outside of their own religion. With understanding we become better people and are more capable of being good to all people!
I guess I can add to my list of things that I learned about atheists is that they reject subjective ways of knowing. The certainty that God does not exist from this perspective makes sense.
Back to the subject of trolls. I have a personal policy of not debating on internet forums, facebook, etc. So far, I have not found it useful. In other words, I confine myself to questions, restatements to make sure I understand, and musings. I stay away from presenting arguments. I find that many debaters goal is to prove themselves right, not to learn about other opinions or to clarify their own thinking.
In the quest to be found right, many people resort to jeering, dismissal, name-calling and all sorts of disrespectful behavior which is easy to do in the anonymity of the internet. I find debate or conversation about controversial and emotional topics in the context of ongoing relationship with colleagues, friends and family to be much more likely to be healthy and useful.
I think sometimes we try to handle questions that are to complex for forums such as this one. Chasuk alluded he really needed a hub or a book to really unpack his views for me. (I do think you did a great job in a paragraph though.) Short blurbs of text with little context often lead to misunderstanding. That misunderstanding leads to disagreeable disagreement. I experienced that on the thread yesterday. I experienced views seemingly aimed at demeaning me not enlightening me. I can't receive that. If your goal is not to bring people closer to understanding and resolution, then I think you're a troll. I don't care what ideology you follow. It's not helpful. It doesn't build a better world.
I don't think of trolls as either theistic or atheistic - simply annoying people who like to say no when you say yes, or vice versa. If a troll really had a position to argue, he would not be a troll, in my opinion.
This is an excellent question, and I love that you are a bold enough atheist to see it as a problem and ask your fellow atheists why. I have my ideas of why they are like this, as I have debated them for years.
I am a Christian, and I haven't always understood Christian trolls. In scripture and through Jesus, we are supposed to have the ministry of grace and reconciliation. I think our own wounds, fears and insecurities get in the way. Our faith doesn't heal all those things at once. We think we need to prove we are "right" instead of building relationship and understanding. Perhaps those on both sides are afraid they are "wrong" and being "wrong" would rock their world. The existence of God is an important question; it's a game changer in our lives. It's going to be touchy. It doesn't bother me anymore that it gets heated.
As a former Christian, I appreciate your perspective. :-)
Even as an atheist, my remit is a ministry of grace and reconciliation, in the sense that I have a ministry at all. As a human being, that is my "ministry." Call it my observation of the Ethic of Reciprocity.
I'm curious what changed your mind about the existence of God?
The answer to that question would require a book to explain properly, but I will try to provide a brief answer.
I came to distrust subjective experience as a reliable measure of truth. When you stop trusting subjective experience, you eventually disbelieve in the Holy Spirit as anything other than delusion. After I had decided that the Holy Spirit was a delusion, I recognized that miracles didn't occur, that my belief in anything supernatural was a lie, which ruled out the possibility of the Ressurection. Now that Jesus had been reduced to a historical personage, why stop there? God became an unnecessary hypothesis.
Does that answer your question?
I just don't understand the rationale for combating (sometimes actual, sometimes perceived or stereotyped) bigotry with, well, bigotry.
That about sums up most of the atheist trolls, if you ask me.
By extension, atheist trolling is also combating hypocrisy with hypocrisy, intolerance with intolerance, and let's face it, ignorance with ignorance (if I had a nickel for every strawman I've seen used to try to tell me what's wrong with my faith...).
And then they wonder why they never make any progress.
You are being intellectually dishonest.
That is why your religion starts so many fights.
Intellectual dishonesty is of course widespread and certainly not confined to Christians, but hits us all to some degree. Indeed, I'd label it as vanity, as I do all sin.
God's love is in you.
I will pray for you.
Thank you! You have summed up my feelings perfectly.
I do think a large part of the problem is that this is the internet. The fact that this is (for the most part) an anonymous way for people to communicate without being face to face makes certain people want to stir up trouble even to the degree of posting opinions they don't necessarily even SHARE, just to see people's angry responses. I think it's entirely possible many of these atheist trolls might not even be atheists. I'm a liberal Christian and I've never had any problem being friends with atheists I've actually MET. Ever go on IMDB message boards? Man, even a subject as simple as a Disney/Pixar message board will find trolls at work. They're everywhere, atheist or whatever. I think the thing that links all of them in common is a very low level of basic respect for others and, too often, a low level of maturity. In general, I've found Hubpages a lot more free of them than most sites, if not entirely. One of the things I appreciate about it... even people with divergent opinions can discuss those opinions with civility.
I sympathise with the opening sentiment. I think that trolls can belong to any religion, or non-belief system, however. There are just a lot of angry and unhappy people around, unfortunately. (I am another atheist by the way.)
Non-belief system? That says it all. Atheists believe nothing. They don't believe the religionists, they don't believe their significant others, they don't believe the president, their boss, their lawyer or their doctor....why? Because they have a NON-BELIEF system. Totally erroneous statement, and ridiculous in insinuation.
Non-belief is a standard term for people who have no religion, certainly in the UK where I am from. There are numerous systems of belief that don't involve a God.
I personally believe in the principles of science and the enlightenment and am content to be a non-believer, or atheist, I am happy with either term.
No idea what "insinuations" you read into my statement, or what you found "ridiculous". Perhaps you have another go at explaining whatever it is that you are trying to say?
There are atheists, agnostics and then you have Antichrists, who hide their agenda by calling themselves atheists.
Easy! Somebody's gotta stand up to the armies of righteous Christian trolls on here!!
The atheist hubbers may be few, but they're mighty.
I am not one, but in terms of sheer ability to argue I give major props to our atheist friends. Also, I honestly I can't think of one I would consider a troll.
Peace and love out,
In my experience you can recognise a troll by the very new account that has very little to no information on it.
Except for Christian trolls.
They are very up front with their identities.
Because they are crusaders for the literal bible ....
I was going to say crusaders for Jesus, but I don't think Jesus figures a whole lot in these trolls' christian faith.
Good questions! The natural healer came into my life after the doctors, through some trusted friends. The healer used the method of dousing and what knowledge that was already gathered by the doctors before. Also a second healer came along, unknown to the other or the diagnosis and he too say parasites through his was of perceptions. The liver specialist saw I was bleeding from the liver and went no further after I told him I would drink alcohol on weekends. He assumed I damaged my liver and offered not more test or recommendations. Dropped me like a hot potato. I did not drink that much alcohol and today I drink none while my liver is regrowing.
So, there is no verifiable evidence of parasites - right? There is only the word of the homeopathist - the same person who sells water and calls it a homeopathic cure.
It sounds to me like your complaint with standard medicine is that your were not treated well as a person - but did you receive any antibiotics from any regular doctors? If so, there is a good chance the antibiotics killed any parasite you may have had, if that, indeed, was the case.
Regardless, I am glad you are better. I doubt the reason is what you think, though.
I was treated wrong, but I do not discredit modern medicine, but herbal medicine has cured my ailments and created a better living for me. I went to a Native Healer, thru trusted channels....that makes all the difference in the world. I no longer feel like I have the flu, my constant pain in the liver is gone. Sometime these types of healing experience can only be credit between the healer and the ill. I just felt that it was not correct to say homeopathy does not work from someone who probably knows nothing about it or had positive experience with it. I know what healed me. I live with a medicine man!
Did the doctors ever identify the actual parasites that were in your liver? Herbal medicine is different from homeopathy. Aspirin, for example, is derived from an herbal source, the bark of the willow tree, but is now artificially created, and there is plenty of verfiable evidence of its efficacy.
Without knowing your specifics, I can't really comment on that, but a lot of times, people who aren't getting satisfaction from regular doctors for whatever reason and seek out alternative therapies often do so at the peak of their pain or whatever. Then they received the therapy (acupuncture is a good one for this) and start to get better. Then they assume that the alternative therapy is what made them better, when in fact they may have gotten better anyway. I have a friend who gets acupuncture for her migraines, and despite me explaining this to her, she still insists it works. There is also the placebo effect.
Check out this web site for more info:
In these types of groups or websites I have found that no matter what the troll is commenting on they are only doing it to boost themselves. They think that by insulting people and getting more users involved in their argument they will increase their own views and popularity. The typical thinking is that if everyone either hates you or loves you, everyone at least knows who you are. Its all about attention. I typically ignore them when they post comments on my hubs but benefit to those that the trolls attack is that you can get some pretty lengthy debates going on your hubs.
Same here. Western civilization didn't have a clue. Still doesn't, and maybe never will.
I know homeopathy, but I also know holistic as well and in my experience the two have been combined. Yes, a rare parasite that is contracted from sheep, lamb and river snails. I was a tom boy when I was young and yes, my aunt had a sheep and lamb farm and I was there alot. Also lived near a river and snails were my favorite critters to play with! Homeopathy is not for everyone, but my liver was so far damage ( a third of it eaten) that I could not take the conventional medicines of today. This whole conversation started with simplying saying the homeopathy does have it value and I did not want to see that undercut in someone's statement. By the way.....is this TROLLING?
Check out this hub....LOL
http://backporchstories.hubpages.com/hu … Treatments
(copy and paste into your address bar)
I do not claim to be a certified expert, but having worked with several herbalist and medicine keepers throughout the last 20 years, I feel I can share my experiences and insight.
I believe in all now cause my 3 year old had only seen a holistic doctor for the first year of life and he was the one who had told me to see a pediatric dr. cause her issues where getting worse and her lips were always had a light shade of blue we saw the pedi and he diagnosed her with a type 2 tracheomalcia where it required her to go through a massive surgery where they had to physically move her carotid artery from being wrapped around the trachea and we to a holistic pharmacist for my 8 year old as i did not want to put her on meds for her adhd and autism spectrum disorder and i have no regrets for any of my decisions as it has helped my older girl alot and saved my younger girls life
And I was referring to the event known as the Medicine Dream. It is at the root of the entire ancient knowledge structure, worldwide. It is how we come to understand the Great Spirit.
The word athiest is latin it comes from the words "athie" and "Diest" meaning "no" and "God". Now if you look at nature you know it had to be made. How did the plants learn photosynthesis did it just learn it after the big bang. Spoiler- NO. I could not be an athiest. No offense to any here, but I know that there is something more to life than being born, dieing, and being burried. Again sorry.
Why the nose is designed like that, if not for spectacles?
I'm sorry, but how is this relevant to the subject of this forum?
It appears I've upset a fellow HP'er enough for him to call me the antichrist because he didn't like my use of bible verses. He wrote at least 2 hubs on is hatred for me and I have to say I find this a little disturbing. He says he was banned from forums and seems to blame me for this as well. I've not complained about any comments except for one that clearly expressed racial bigotry. I don't think I'm a troll. I try to express myself, but I have to say I'm a little taken back by the level of hatred shown to me.
The most important opinion in the world about you, is your own opinion. If there is hate toward you, it is their problem, not yours.
What make them madder than hell is not being able to answer hard questions, when their God has all the answers(they claims). It's no good being against anything because it become part of the problem. This forum is for you to have the freedom of expressing your opinion. I think the rules are, no personal attacks, no harming, try to be honest and consider their opinion too and come out talking with each other.
When they run out of arguments, they resort to name calling. I wouldn't be disturbed by it, I would find it amusing! I've been called all sorts of hateful things, and it's always by those who have exhausted any sort of reasoned opinion.
I confront problems each step of the way, in order not to be taken by emotional egos getting out of whack even if I disagree. I pretty well respect everyone opinion even if I don't understand living life in their shoes, because everything has a reason and people are generally good.
Standing in my shoe twosheds1, Rad Man is reasonable enough for me, point out to us what Rad said that could be harmful or dishonest to any of us?
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