Attention ALL unbelievers, what does God have to do in order to convince you to trust Christ and be saved from the judgment to come?
What will convince you to trust God's Son as your saviour? More evidence? Miracles? Changed lives?
Think about it.
His believers to act like or do as Jesus said to do would be a good step. That in itself would be a miracle, would be changed lives, would lead to salvation...
I can appreciate your response. Though no belief system should be condemned for those that abuse it, I agree that those that profess to be Christians, their lives should show a genuine change.
But realize two things: 1) many people who claim to be Christians who do horrible things in the "name of Christ" are not following what Jesus said and did, but rather are disobeying Him and His example. 2) when sincere people do find the truth in the person of Christ and do have a genuine change from the inside out, just as a new born baby, they will need to grow and mature. Along the way they may mess things up, and God will correct them in measure because no Christian is promised to be perfect, at least not this side of eternity. But true Christians will be humble and admit their faults and strive to live a life pleasing to Christ for His unspeakable gift of love displayed for them in His death and resurrection.
Finally: it is interesting Sandra how though you don't claim to be a born again Christian I frequently see you contributing to forums that discuss things about God and Jesus Christ. So at least there seems to be a genuine interest in God. I hope there is and I hope you will continue to seek Him with a genuine and sincere heart.
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD"
- (Jeremiah 29:13-14)
Very true here again it goes back to the saying of the finger pointing to the moon or the messenger and his message.
Thinkaboutit77 is stuck on the messenger and doesnt understand or forgets the message.
God will never do such a thing as he has no ego which Christians like you have.Everyone is a master or to be master-Guru Nank.
I am the son of God like Jesus was or is.
How can you presume what God will do or God won't do?
Besides Mohitmisra if you're looking for evidence to believe in God and His Son, look no further than the fact that it is people like you who are confirming what the Bible has already said.
Jesus warned His followers time in the future where "many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many" (Matt 24:5)
Certainly you aren't the first person to claim that and you aren't going to be the last. Be forewarned though, there is coming a "man of peace" who will appear on the world stage and who will claim to be the real Christ but He isn't going to come to the earth the way 1st Thessalonians 4 (in the Bible) says Christ will return. Therefore He won't be the real deal, just a counterfeit who seeks to deceive many through a "false "peace".
Jesus was considered a fasle prophet in his times and was crucified by poeple like you who could not understand properly what he was saying..How can my book get ranked 1 till date in religious or spiritual poetry if I am a fake?
Being enlightened I understand Jesus a lot better than you do.
This is like the Mulisms saying your religion is nonsense and Islam is the only way-fanatics.
I found my evidence in the Light and did not have to look at any holy book including the holy Bible.
I would like the burning chariot drawn by four white horses descending from the heavens please.
Whenever he is ready............
What will convince you that I do not need saving and am not going to be judged?
I have to say though, the way you comport yourself is just more proof of the non-existence of god.
I thought the loaves and fishes miracle was a good one.
Some people say that lots of people had brought lunches with them and when the baskets were passed around, some people put in, rather than taking out. Therefore there was plenty of food if people had just been willing to share in the first place.
If this is true-- I think it was an even greater miracle-- making people unselfish.
Thank you to those that have already responded.
I asked this question because the Bible says "it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).
And when our hearts (like a clock) tick for the last time and we stand before the Creator, God will ask you why you didn't believe what He said and unbelievers will give reasons like "I need more evidence, etc). Then God will take you back and replay the time He did reveal the evidence. But it was then you see that you discounted what God had revealed to you because you wanted the evidence to conform to your standards and expectations. God will then reveal to you on that day that it was not for the lack of evidence that people denied Him but it was because of their suppression of the evidence.
From what I have seen posted on this forum, I am (absolutely) convinced, now more than ever, "salvation is a miracle".
For God to give the gift of repentance, and salvation to any man, has to be a miracle. But,like any gift, if after it is offered, and refused (to be accepted), there is not much He CAN do. He does not force the gift on anyone. Those who don't want it, as some here don't, they won't be forced to have it.
Atheists, you are all safe from "forced salvation", so relax !!!
Accept the gift?
Won't be forced?
Do not need it would be a more appropriate way of expressing it.
You might be a worthless sinner in need of salvation, but I am not.
Dontthinkaboutit never seems to understand that when he tells me I am worthless and in need of salvation, and his imaginary friend is going to judge me and burn me in a pit of fire for all eternity, this is mildly offensive, although amusing at the same time.
It all hinges on ONE concept, "sin". The Bible teaches that all are "sinners", therefore deserving of judgment and in need /salvation. Of course, atheism and (many) religions, either deny sin, or dismiss it (sin that is). So, I understand what you are saying.
You are an animal, ( all be it, more "evolved"), and are not a "sinner" per se, just doing what nature intended for you to do. So, no action is deemed "judge-able" (good word huh?)
You see, I am not ignorant of your ways.
That's why there are no moral/legal absolutes either, because it's all "relative", and therefore we(you) are not accountable!
It makes perfect sense for you to hold to your position!
But this means you do not think I hold myself accountable for my actions. Whereas I do hold myself accountable.
You, on the other hand can claim to be an "imperfect," christian, and not worry about it because you are going to heaven because you believe. Or have asked for forgiveness. This means you can do as you please without consequence.
What a convenient get-out.
It makes perfect sense you would hang on to this lack of accountability.
Not at all. I find myself accountable not just to myself, as you do, BUT also to a Higher standard than my own. So, in a sense, I am twice as accountable, once to my own integrity, which I value very highly, and to His standards of "perfection". Which I aim for, but fall short of.
And yes, His mercy (forgivness) takes care of those.
So, you think you are "better" than an atheist.
With higher moral standards.
Which then leads me to point out the obvious flaws in this statement.
You are not "better" than me:
If this was true, christians would behave in more obviously "better" ways. Which leads me to believe none of you are really christians and do not really believe. Imagine what the world would be like if christians behaved the way they said everyone should behave.
When you fall short and do not act according to his standards, you are forgiven anyway. Which makes this accountability worthless.
Even you must agree that, according to your book, no one is capable of judging anyone and holding anyone accountable except your god. Therefore you are not able to hold yourself accountable, because only your god will judge you.
Which is why history shows us that christians behave at least as badly, if not worse (because they are claiming some higher authority) than anyone else. I myself have seen this with my own eyes, so it is not just a question of "believing," this is the case.
Therefore believing in god is a pointless, destructive, even counter-productive, waste of time.
Therefore there is no god.
Which is one of the many reasons I choose not to believe in yours.
God loves you like he loved Jesus and all of humanity unconditionally.Bottom line just be a good human. :)No human is worthless but all are sages or children of god.
Its not upto you.I was an atheist and got enlightened or attained salvation and so can Mark or any other atheist on this planet.It is not important to have Jesus as your personal saviour.
Every single human no matter if he does or does not have or believe in a religion or master can go beyond.The master is a stepping stone to the Light
"It all hinges on ONE concept, "sin". " Yes sin where one can never be as perfect as heaven, and never be free of sin, and forever be beholden.
Mark, your not being very fair at all. I never implied I was better than anyone. If anything, I think I'm less than most.
If anyone knows their faults and limitations, it's me. All I was saying was that I strive to live to a higher standard than just my own.
I make no defence for the actions of others, nor do I escuse them, I am merely accountable for my own life. Whether I stand or fall, I do so alone. There will be no-one to hide behind on that day. As to how He judges me, I know one thing for sure, it will be "just"!
You being a believer or not will have zero effect in that.
You can love us (believers), hate us, despize us ridicule us, doesn't matter. One thing is for certain, we are here, and in your face.
Didn't someone mention the word "tolerance" in society? Or does that only apply for some?
You said you are held accountable to a higher standard than your own. And my inference, MY own also.
So, if that does not make you an "better," than me, what difference does this make?
Why should I be tolerant of people who tell me I am sinful and need to be redeemed, or I will burn in hell for all eternity?
Why should I be tolerant of people who keep their children from being exposed to genuine educational facts to teach them lies?
Why should I be tolerant of people who tell me they are "better" than me?
Why should I be tolerant of people who use god as an excuse to spread war and hatred?
Why should I be tolerant of people who spend millions of dollars spreading this rubbish?
Now, if you followed Thomas Jefferson's credo that what you believe is between you and your god, I would be very tolerant of that.
But, no, you feel the need to spread this rubbish and stand up and argue that proven scientific facts are just another "belief."
Yes you are here, and in my face. I was forced to sit through hours and hours of religious claptrap being shoved down my throat as a child and young man.
If you hadn't been so aggressively in my face, telling me what I needed to do to be as "good" as you, I would probably be more tolerant of your silly, war-mongering religion.
And I mean "you," collectively.
You have an uncanny way of either missing my point, misinterpreting it, or deliberately twisting it. I'm not sure which.
How does me being accountable to my own (standard) integrity, and striving to reach (my interpretation if you like?) of God's standard, make me "better than you"?
I already KNOW that I don't measure up, thereby acknowledging my "need for salvation".What on earth does that have to do with you? How does that infer your "inferiority" to me?
As for intolerance, what are you capable of doing to me (us) because of our faith? That's if we are warmongers? Who are you accountable to for "intolerance"?
You must be having a "bad hair day".
PS. I am not the one who said you (unbelivers) will burn in hell for eternity et al. That book you despize so much said it l-o-n-g before I came along. Sorry!
As, I said, I was using the collective "you."
And the only thing I have ever done, is make fun of "you."
So, I am quite comfortable with how my "intolerance," manifests itself.
It is very unlikely I will be reaching for a pile of wood and burning "you," at the stake.
I am not trying to twist your words. What I am trying to do is show you what I hear when you say things.
It seems a great shock to many believers that when they say they believe in an all-powerful god, and this god is going to burn me in hell because I don't believe in it, that I might get a little offended by that. Especially when they do not demonstrate the ability to follow any of the so-called commandments they claim to follow and manage to twist just about every single one of them to suit themselves.
Yes, I know the book that you believe is 100% perfect says I will burn in hell for all eternity.
Not that that gives you any responsibility or accountability I know you did not write it, but it is "plausible," to you.
So, if you are not better than me because you strive to meet god's standards and fail, what is the point ?
And if you do not think that you going to heaven, and me burning in hell makes you "better" than me, what exactly do you think?
God is pure love and loves every human including you unconditionally.
Mo, I have now decided that you do mean well, but -
This is not what christians believe.
Their god is a jealous and angry god, who requires specific things from you before you are accepted into the kingdom of heaven. And many will be excluded.
This is why I spend a portion of my energy arguing with them. If you use the word "god," they are hearing a very different word to the one you are saying.
Hence the Atheism
Mark- Do you believe in as you sow so you reap. If you treat others with love and kindness then the results you get back should also be the same.
Thats their lack of understanding God.Who gave Jesus salvation?-God.
The same way prophets can be used as stepping stones to the light or one can go directly bypassing everything .I understand your viewpoint.
Two men are floating in the sea. Both are about to die. A lifeline is thrown to both. One decides to grab a hold, the other sees it as futile, and refuses.
One is "saved" the other is not. Who's fault is it?
How is the one saved better than the one who perishes?
That's what I think!
Ok here is a different take on this scenario:
Their are many who are throwing the rope towards me but the one I most trust is from my family members hence I prefer to take that rope then is it acceptable to others.
Ah, so it is my fault.
If I just accepted the lifeline you know about and have been telling me I should accept, I too would be saved?
And all I need to to is agree with you and say I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior and I too could spend eternity in heaven.
What a pity you have persuaded me it is all garbage. I mean, how can I possibly take anything you say as worthwhile when you have spent so much energy trying to persuade me the earth is a few thousand years old and some silly computer model is good enough proof for you that the grand canyon could have formed in a short space of time?
So, really, it is your fault.
Is that a burning in hell for all eternity sort of fault?
I guess you have never accepted Him? From what you have recently written, you have had lots of "religious garbage forced down you" at school.
Jesus is NOT a religion! He is a person, ( who you deny ever existed). And I have no religion to shove down your throat.
You are not so different from the apostle Paul (or should I say Saul). He also hated christians, persecuted them and had then thrown in jail etc. His zeal came from Judaeism, much like your zeal comes from atheism/rationalism (?) His end was quite different from his beginning. (I know, I read your link, Paul probably didn't exist either).
Maybe, you too will fall off your (high) horse, and "see the light".
Aka-dj: I am sorry if I am interrupting your conversation but all I ask is Mr.Mark (whether he be of any religion or no religion) is human too then why do you wish for him to have the consequences like Saul. Just pray in the name of the lord and wish the best for him. We have had all the religions in the world to divide each other but not enough to love each other(irrespective of whether they are religious or not).
Why am I the one on the high horse?
Maybe I am the one who has seen the light.
You are the one telling me that science is BS, and there is a far more plausible explanation and if I wanted to I could be saved just like you are and it is my fault I am not going to be saved.
Just like the Muslim who was here the other week telling me it was my fault that I had to read a translation of his book because I do not speak Arabic.
Ok Mark, let me rephrase that. Remove the (high), and just read horse, (metaphorical).
And "see the light as (Saul) did, "the blinding light that was (His) presence".
I have no doubt you have "seen the light" to which you now hold.
BTW, why ridicule computer models in one instance, and accept them in another. And I never said my example was a "computer" model, but a real live event in the 80's.
PS, Re-"fault", you draw your own conclusions!
On "judgment day" each one will give an account for themselves", you have my permission to say, "It was all dj's fault I am the way I am. He wrote garbage that mademe this way" (or similar, use your own words!)
All computer models are equal.
Some are more equal than others.
Oh, that light. No, I have seen a different one. Much, much better, backed up by science and everything - you should try it.
That's why we are in "different camps"
Science,(one camp) with all its revelations, is "incapable" of delving into the "paranormal, or supernatural", (the other camp).
It's ok, our worlds do meet. Some call it a fence.
It's sitting in the middle (on the fence) that is most uncomfortable.
I appreciate conversing with you.
In the "real world" (as opposed to cyberspace), we would probably have never done it. Certainly not for so long, and so openly.
This is what would work for me.
Jesus walked the earth 2008 years ago right.
He did all kinds of amazing things back then
The world is a much smaller place now and we need him far more now then back then.
Did people have faith back then when someone stood in front of them and did all these amazing things? If they didn't need faith, why should we?
A lot of things back then that were a mystery can be explained if they happened today. Therefore, the Jesus of the bible doesn't exist in my opinion.
I'm not saying there isn't something, just not that.
"I see God everywhere, and nowhere"
Gary (I made that quote up myself, feel free to quote me)
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