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Can You Reject Salvation?

  1. Disappearinghead profile image90
    Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago

    Suppose that you (the reader) and I decide to go for a tramp in the woods. Suddenly a big bear comes running out of the undergrowth, jumps on you, pins you down and is just about to sink its teeth into your throat. Oh dear, you are in a sticky situation, you are going to die, and there is nothing you can do about it.

    Now being such a nice fellow as I am, I raise my trusty shotgun and shoot the bear dead. Praise the Lord reader for you are now saved. Now some questions to think about:

    - Did you have to formerly ask me for salvation before I gave it? No.
    - Did you have to say a sinner's prayer? No.
    - Was my salvation to you a free gift? Yes.
    - Strings attached? No.
    - Could you have prevented this free gift of salvation? No.
    - Did you have any say in it whatsoever? No.
    - Whether you accepted or rejected my salvation, would it have made any difference? No.
    - Was the salvation initiated from you or from me? Me.
    - So would you agree that by my shooting of the bear, you are saved and this action had nothing to do with you and was entirely as a result of my grace and love, you could not accept it or reject it BECAUSE IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED?

    One final question. You now stand up, turn to me and say, I hate you DH and I reject your shotgun salvation. Should I now reach for a can of petrol, a match, and set you on fire?

    1. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Well now, Disappearinghead....I think the question really is more along the lines of....who gave you Life in the first place so that you could even be in the woods to "save" me? 

      And yes there was a string attached in your scenario!----credit.  You want credit for having "saved" "me".  But all you're due is credit for having made the CHOICE to save me, since you're not the initial nor the ultimate author of the grace that allowed the scenario to even happen.  And there's where your scenario isn't sustainable----imperfect humans aren't comparable to the perfect God.  If "you" were God, you wouldn't have had to use a shotgun anyway! You'd have just commanded the bear to drop me, or zapped it outta existence or some such thing! LOL

      But indeed the actual Author of that Salvation does deserve the credit, and does have the right to light that petrol can and throw the blasphemer into the fire.  Whether He does so or not depends on how many chances He wants to give the rejector and whether or not the rejector ever chooses to accept (and that would be something that the Alpha would know, not you).





      Shorter answer----Yes, we can reject Salvation.  People have done it.  Some people still do it.  The Bible says to recognize His authority and power to send us to hell!

      And people still argue about Calvinism and Arminianism (or however that's spelled).   I say the Bible is clear already, and people need to read it instead of worrying about what Calvin or anybody else meant.

      1. Disappearinghead profile image90
        Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I think you missed my point Brenda. I'm not presenting this scenario for my sake or to assume any credit. I'm drawing an analogy of Jesus salvation to humanity. Just as you in this case were saved without asking, you had no influence, and it has been done already, so it is with Jesus. So his salvation cannot be rejected because he initiated it and completed it.

        As to setting you on fire I hoped you'd see that as ludicrous and therefore you woud see that the idea of God doing it was also ludicrous.

        1. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          But I wasn't saved without asking.  Maybe in your scenario, but not in reality of Salvation.  That's what I mean----any comparison of human action/reaction falls way short when compared to God's actions.

          God drew me toward Him.  Jesus promised that before He went to the Cross (that He would draw all mankind toward Him). 
          But indeed I had to be willing to accept the offer.

          Why would "hell" be ludicrous?  It isn't.  Because I (and you and every other human being) am fallible, unable to be perfect.  BUT God understands that.  How can He not, because He made the first human beings!   WE, however, are responsible for Loving God;  we have that capacity and that option.  And indeed He is easy to Love!   So, yeah, we're responsible for that, for choosing Him.  If we don't, He can and will send us to hell.   The clay has no authority to question the Potter's final authority.

          1. Disappearinghead profile image90
            Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            As a lump of steel cannot prevent itself being drawn to a magnet, so man cannot prevent themselves being drawn to God.

            Anyway if your hell exists, why did God never mention it to anyone before the Book of Revelation? Don't cite Gehenna now because Jesus was speaking to Jews who knew it meant the Hinom Valley, and as they had no concept of eternal hellfire, Gehenna being hell is completely alien. And as the term hell never appears in the bible, how could Jesus equate the Hinom Valley to something that had no name?

      2. lrohner profile image84
        lrohnerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        My mother. And she didn't know any bears.

        And you?

    2. aguasilver profile image86
      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      What if instead of you having a shotgun, you tackled the bear and allowed the foolish hiker to escape, even if you had to give YOUR life to allow that to happen.

      Would the hiker not owe you a debt, his life?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        There you go - forced salvation through guilt/debt.

        This is an invisible bear that no one sees - right. wink

      2. Disappearinghead profile image90
        Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Either way John, the salvation has been given unconditionally and it cannot be rejected, therefore you in this case are saved whether you wanted it or not. Just like Mark here is saved too because he cannot stop, prevent, or reject that which has been completed.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I will reject it sweetie. If this is the premis - that I need saving in the first place and have no input in it? I will surely reject such a nonsensical proposition.

          I see where youy are going but - no - just as nonsensical as their take it or burn BS.

          Why would I need saving? lol From what? The Invisible Bear? lol

          This is why your religion causes so many conflicts. wink

          1. Disappearinghead profile image90
            Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well at least you have given it the thought to see the point I'm trying to make. I can't ask any more than that.

        2. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Nope.  Nice little scenario there, but it doesn't wash.  But indeed many "believers" have fallen into that trap of "universal salvation" theory.  And they may cause many souls to go to the lake of fire because they didn't warn them that they have a choice.

          1. Disappearinghead profile image90
            Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Why doesn't it wash? You don't think God loves humanity enough?

            It's not about choice. Say I washed your car for you for free without asking you first whilst you were watching telly. You might be happy or annoyed enough to want to "sue my ass". But the fact is your car is washed, it is finished.

            What's with the double quotes around "believers"? hmm

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I believe that means she thinks you are not a "proper," believer.

              Now - My Great Grandma - that was a proper believer. She would have had no truck with a divorced woman living in sin, no sir.

            2. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              And you want the credit it for it, then.
              That's the part that doesn't wash.
              Because you are not God.
              If you were God, you wouldn't even have to use a sponge or water or anything at all to "wash my car".  Don't you get it?  Man wants credit, in your scenario.  But in God's Salvation scenario, man doesn't want credit, because he simply chooses to be saved by the awesome God who is worthy of credit.  It's not about the man, even though, yes, he chooses.  It's about God, who can and will and does do anything He wants to do.   And He always does Good, no matter what we do.   It wouldn't be good for God to save someone who hates Him unless that person repents and Loves Him.   Darkness and Light aren't compatible in the soulical realm.


              The quotes around believers?    A believer believes what the Bible says.  And the Bible says we must choose.

              1. Disappearinghead profile image90
                Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                No no no Brenda. I don't want any credit for washing your car. I did it because I love you. And whether I used a sponge, hosepipe or spoke the words "Brenda's car thou art clean", and so it was, is not the point.

                Yes God does whatever he wants to which includes saving those who don't want to be saved. They cannot prevent a God that does what He pleases.

        3. aguasilver profile image86
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          But we do need to accept it?

          Or is it compulsory????

          1. Disappearinghead profile image90
            Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            We have no say because it happened before we were born. Rejecting or accepting is futile when that something happened in the past.

            1. aguasilver profile image86
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              So EVERYONE is saved NO MATTER WHAT and there is nothing they can do about it?

              Is that correct????

              1. Disappearinghead profile image90
                Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Yes.

                Romans 3: 21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
                22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ [his faith not ours] to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference [no difference between the 'all' and out of those 'all' those who believe],
                23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
                24 [all] being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

                My words in [.....]

                Romans 5: 8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
                9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
                10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

                Notice that God reconciled us to himself WHILST we were still his enemy. But Christianity says we are only reconciled AFTER WE have asked for it formally. You see he reconciled us independently of us because he did the action.

                1. aguasilver profile image86
                  aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  So can I tear the following verses out of my bible, they seem to be redundant?

                  John 3 15:18

                  In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may [c]not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever!

                  For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

                  For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.

                  He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ’s name.]

                  1. Disappearinghead profile image90
                    Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    John, did the disciples believe in Him? They said they did, but that belief expired when they ran away. They didn't believe that he would rise from the dead until he did and met them.

                    The condemnation of all men happened at the cross, whereupon Jesus switched places with us. At that point the sin was condemned, at that point the judgement came. God will not condemn man when the condemnation was already inflicted on Jesus. When he said it was finished, it truly was.

                    Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.
                    13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
                    14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
                    15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many [all] died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! [all]
                    16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 
                    17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive [thats all of us because God gave it to all] God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
                    18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all.

                    One sin ultimately resulted in all condemned, though this is not original sin, then one righteous act justified all. Notice too that where there is no law sin is not charged against anyone's account. So if Christ came to fulfill the law and bring that law covenant to an end, there is no more law, so sin is no longer charged to us.

                    1 Corinthians 15: 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a human being.
                    22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
                    23 But in this order: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

                    So all will be made alive because of Christ and we all belong to him because he purchased the whole of humanity by paying the penalty of all of its sin.

                    Though I can't find it now, Paul's says that it is God's will that all men be saved. The Church thinks this 'will' is a wishy washy hope that God knows he cannot fulfil but:

                    Isaiah 46: 10 I make known the end from the beginning, 
                        from ancient times, what is still to come. 
                    I say, ‘My purpose will stand, 
                        and I will do all that I please.’
                    11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; 
                        from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
                    What I have said, that I will bring about;
                        what I have planned, that I will do.

                    God will do what he wants, and that includes saving everyone.

                2. brotheryochanan profile image59
                  brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Notice that God reconciled us to himself WHILST we were still his enemy. But Christianity says we are only reconciled AFTER WE have asked for it formally. You see he reconciled us independently of us because he did the action.

                  God reconciled everyone POTENTIALLY through the death of his son. Realistically and biblically everyone has to go through Jesus Christ to be saved, hence if a person never believes in Christ then that one cannot be saved and with the parable about the wise and foolish women who had oil in their lamps (the spirit) 5 were not saved. So as the believers shall scarcely be saved how shall the ungodly? They cannot be saved until they believe.

                  1. Disappearinghead profile image90
                    Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Paul said we are reconciled, not potentially reconciled.

    3. kess profile image60
      kessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      They that rejects salvation are.those that turn to the bear then look at you and says "oh what a poor bear, you wicked man why did you do that?"... Then try to shoot you with your own gun, all the time denying that they were scared shitless.

      1. kess profile image60
        kessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        The rejection of salvation is actually not being able to recognise it...

        just as one is unable to differentiate between the purpose of bear and the shotgunner, so they are unable to differentiate Life and death.

        So whosoever occommodates death without overcoming it are the ones decieved...

      2. Disappearinghead profile image90
        Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        smile

      3. jacharless profile image82
        jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Brilliant response, Kess!

    4. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Not sure anyone understood the point you were reaching for.

        Supose the hiker didn't see you or knew you were even in the woods.

        He can even believe that he conquored the bear himself.
       
        I think you are spot on.
        Salvation is a free gift.    rewards after salvation is a different matter.

    5. DoubleScorpion profile image85
      DoubleScorpionposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Great post and thought...And I see the majority don't get it...smile

      1. Disappearinghead profile image90
        Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks DS. I glad someone gets it. I guess it's difficult for many to stop and look at something from a different angle. smile

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I get it just fine.

          There is a far, far, far simpler explanation.

          I don't need salvation in the first place. wink

          See how much simpler that is? No arguing, no need for majik, no god, none of that nonsense.

          1. Disappearinghead profile image90
            Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Oh well, I guess the bear doesn't have to raid picnic baskets for a month. smile

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The ravening, big scary bear does not exist so - yes. big_smile

              1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                apparently no one anywhere, ever has been attacked by a bear. Disappearing head told his story and you chose to stick your head in the sand and say the bear doesn't exist.
                This is a perfect example of bias opinion, kudos mark.

                So okay, Micheal demasi from Australia.
                  Mr Demasi, 27, has a small wound on his thigh where the shark pierced his plastic kayak when it bit into it in 40m-deep water. "I didn't know it was a shark so I was relaxed enough to grab my sunnies as I bailed out. It wasn't until I came up from the water when I saw a big thing gnawing the kayak. "She was in awe to see this massive creature launch itself out of the water and grab the kayak," Mr Lavers said. "It was pretty cool how she quickly got (Mr Demasi) on the back of the kayak and out of the water."

                Real story, shark existed, see the parallel?

                what if the story was written 2,000 yrs ago in greek. You would not believe it actually happened?

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  No parallel whatsoever. That shark was real - your scary invisible majik bear does not exist.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                    brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I have a theory that atheists lack imagination and that vagueness is some sort of shield.

          2. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You are right  ... that is because you received it before you ever was!

            edit    Before you were ever able to make any distinction

          3. DoubleScorpion profile image85
            DoubleScorpionposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Mark, Lets assume for a moment that believers are correct and salvation of some sort is required. In this scenario, it is given, no requirements or expectations attached. Which means, that everyone gets it regardless.

            I would think, those who aren't believers would appreciate this religious logic over what is normally seen. And as can be seen from the majority of believer responses, they don't like that idea because it negates their belief in how salvation can be obtained.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I came to this same conclusion many years ago.

              Conditional salvation makes no sense except as a means to perpetuate a church. It is the single solitary reason this religion causes so many conflicts. Those who are "saved," are "better," than those who are not. And - by gum it is easy. All you need to do is say the majik words (and pay your tithes.)

              The next logical step is - needing salvation in the first place makes no sense. wink

              1. Disappearinghead profile image90
                Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Well Mark in this instance I agree entirely with what you are saying regarding conditional salvation. And yes this notion of who is and isn't saved is does generate a lot of conflict.

                1. aguasilver profile image86
                  aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Of course it generates conflict, first nobody gets smug about having come to faith, and being in faith is NOT just reciting some 'majik' words or paying tithes, as usual the propagandist has reduced things to the lowest level, and it almost went unnoticed or commented upon.

                  God desires ALL to be saved, I agree, however there are folk who do not wish to be saved.

                  It's the fact that scripture clearly defines that some WILL NOT be saved that creates the conflict, when those who refuse Gods salvation, then try to call Him unfair.

                  Your presumption that God has 'done the deed' and humanity has no say in it, makes no sense, denies free choice, requires no decision, and allows anybody, no matter how bad they have been, to spend eternity with God.

                  Personally, should the world ever start agreeing with me, I would check my spiritual position, because those who the world loves are not friends of God.

                  It may be that you (DH) are moving away from Christ, and if that is so, well that is also your choice, and I could understand how believing that ALL get saved regardless, would be attractive, but I think you need to look carefully at what you are 'coming out' on, because I've been on that ledge also, and it's along drop, with very difficult ways back once you ave jumped.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    If no one gets smug and doesn't think reciting magic words makes a difference, it's news to many of the rest of us. Maybe you don't understand the definition of smug? Many evangelicals here in the forums (I won't name names) certainly come off as smug to me.  And most claim the words 'I accept Christ as my savior' cause an invisible force to remove invisible sin to allow an invisible soul to live forever. I don't think it's a stretch to understand how that might be termed magical.

                  2. Disappearinghead profile image90
                    Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    John last time I looked I was not moving away from Christ, I have no reason to. And if on occasion I might agree with a particular point of an atheist, that's no indication that we're all loved up.

                    If the message of Christ is so disagreeable and the Christian is looking to ensure that being an enemy of the world is a sign that validates their true faith, how will anyone come to Christ in this life?

            2. brotheryochanan profile image59
              brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              We do not like the idea because it is simply NOT what the bible teaches. Jesus own statements clearly teach the ways to God - again.

              To say that christians twist doctrine to meet their own wants is again a bias statement. To say that christians think themselves better than unbelievers is to say that one gang thinks they are better than another gang and that my friend is just human nature, but do not forget that christians work in opposition to their humanistic natures. Now although it is true that much knowledge puffs up a person please note that christians, being happy in the knowledge of their safety are confident of their situation in life and perhaps this overflowing joy is what you misconstrue to be 'better' than others or perhaps it is a long dead associateless association that is yet another generality that peppers the whole. The meek inherit the earth my friend.

    6. Titen-Sxull profile image94
      Titen-Sxullposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks for this thread DH. You make a very good and important point that most Christians don't seem to understand. If Jesus was actually interested in saving as many as he could from Hell why would he make Salvation such a CONDITIONAL process?

      You have to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, you have to avoid sin if at all possible and repent whenever you do sin. Heck in the church I went to as a kid they told us you have to be baptized both by water and the fire of the Holy Spirit in order to ever make it into Heaven. Yet if any of that is true than what we're dealing with is not salvation at all, at best it's being offered a hand while hanging off a cliff and then being forced to serve your savior for all of eternity just for helping you out of a jam. Most insulting of all the guy offering to help you created the cliff (Hell) and made sure that you were born already destined to fall (original sin) in the first place.

      1. Disappearinghead profile image90
        Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks TS. I agree, if salvation has any conditions then it isn't a free gift. And if we have to satisfy conditions then it is salvation by works and we can claim that we gained that salvation for ourselves. Then comes pride, arrogance, and a sense of superiority.

      2. Team Wiseman profile image85
        Team Wisemanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        The problem here is people are confusing Jesus Christ with religion. Jesus Christ Himself hates religion! Religion makes rules and standards and causes one to miss out on the greatness of life...Jesus Christ says..."Come to Me as you are."
        Great Topic!

      3. RustyW profile image87
        RustyWposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Chances are DH, if you were there, in that same grove as I was, with your trusty shot-gun fully loaded, and you saved my life--I would surely attribute your courage to God--'lest you think aliens, the devil, or some other "quaalude" gave you the willingness for compassion. I doubt the devil or the frig'n "earth-mother' would've had you save me..rather, you probably would've made me into a sacrifice!

        1. RustyW profile image87
          RustyWposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          The only thing "conditional" is faith. If you can have faith in a door-knob, a chair, or yourself--why is it such a far cry to place faith in a supreme Being, rather than your own, inept, free-will? When I was in the Afghan, I don't recall ANYONE ever praying to moloch, little green men, or themselves for that matter--after all, none of us have the authority to change but even one hair upon our head. Now, tell me again "what" or "whom" you would be praying too, if your head was about to be shot-off? The "Green Man" maybe? Or how 'bout 'dem aliens? Or we could always open a "government temple" at area 51, so the "incensed and senseless" could make their annual pilgramage to the holy-land, where George Tsoukalis actually farted before ascending 2.25 inches into the great blue yonder. Come on folks! Oh wait, I forgot, we alraedy have the capitol building, and the houses of those that believe in divine gov't intervention!! Haaaaaaaaaaaa....If I saw anyone pointing a shot-gun at me, I would pray...and then run! What would you do, man? Do tell!

    7. Chris Neal profile image82
      Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      That's kind of misstating the case. Of course the shotgun salvation is initiated by you. But you're missing some important points. To further your analogy:

      *You and I would have to be in enemy territory where your shotgun is the only way I can stay on the straight and narrow path.
      *The enemy would not be bears but people who keep trying to entice me to my doom.
      *Said doom, should I choose to reject your shotgun salvation, would be horrible and long-lasting, even if I can't see it now.
      *The enticements to stray would have to be a good deal better than thinking that a bear would come eat me for leaving the path.

      So if, say, a beautiful woman came with a plate of warm food and I was hungry, then I could reject your shotgun salvation, even if the end result was getting thrown into a sulfur pit.

      1. Disappearinghead profile image90
        Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Chris, my point is not in the details of the analogy per se, but to show an analogy where our situation is hopeless and the salvation comes without any requirements or conditions laid upon us. Acceptance or rejection make no difference because that salvation came regardless. That's the beauty of Jesus' work.

        I don't lay conditions on my kids before I forgive them. I forgive them instantly whether they ask, don't ask, accept or reject. If any sanction does follow such as the naughty step, it is not to punish but to discipline and change behaviour.

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          and it is that false part of religion that says otherwise.

             You have expressed this elequently ...  NUF said!  To add to the truth sometimes takes the chance of adulterating it.

        2. Chris Neal profile image82
          Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I understand your point, but you missed the point of the salvation as offered by Jesus. I was attempting to clarify it.


          And Jesus didn't just come for one or two or three kids, He came for everybody.

    8. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I like your analogy!

      But like most common sense ,someone will twist it too mean something else.

      I guess there will always be people who cause derision.

    9. thegecko profile image85
      thegeckoposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I find it strange that you listed questions to think about, but then listed the answers to most of them o.O

      Here are some questions for you to ponder over...

      1. If I did not go tramping with you into the woods, would the bear still have attacked? Most likely

      2. If I was not there, who would the bear have attacked instead? You

      3. Though the bear attacked me, would your life still be in danger? Yes

      4. Does shooting the bear also save your life? Yes

      5. Was your act of shooting the bear a purely selfless act? No

      6. Was you shooting the bear purely for my salvation? Doubtful

      7. Do pompous, self righteous, arrogant, gun carrying morons roam our forums as well as our woods? Apparently

      Just chop the bear's head off and mount it on your wall. Don't act like killing a bear while you were traveling with your friend is some virtuous act or that you can grant salvation.

      If you were carrying a gun, I would not be traveling in the woods with you. If you did save my life, I would not act so ungrateful, so don't presume to put words in my mouth.

      Save your petrol oil and match for your next witch hunt.

    10. LewSethics profile image60
      LewSethicsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      What if the bear actually gave his life to save you from your crazy shotgun toting friend, who was just waiting for a reason to point that thing in your direction and fire it?  Like in the Gospel of Judas, or something.

  2. Cagsil profile image81
    Cagsilposted 4 years ago

    Before you can reject salvation, you must first find a reason for it to begin with. lol

    1. aguasilver profile image86
      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Simple Ray, sin, and if you say you never sin, then you would be lying, which is a sin.

      God cannot condone sin, and saying there is no God does not change that, and saying there is no sin is a lie.

      1. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        And only the gullible believe it John. roll

        1. aguasilver profile image86
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          That's funny Ray, it really is,that after the life I have led, and having been trained in picking folks brains apart and getting them to do as I wished (before coming to faith that was, in another life I led) and running international businesses, you label ME gullible.

          I spent over ten years doing mind control on people, do you really think I do not know exactly what manipulation, intimidation and deception are all about?

          As you have confidentiality agreements with whoever you are involved with, so do I from way back, but still effective, even though I would never work in that field again.

          1. Cagsil profile image81
            Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well, only the gullible would be unable to see past themselves to see the truth of the matter of the irrationality of such a belief. Oh well.

            1. aguasilver profile image86
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Ah, but I am certainly not gullible, so your statement is disproved, maybe generalizing is a dangerous assumption to make as an all knowing being.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                It is only disproved if we are to believe your assertion that you are capable of mind control. I doubt many would believe your claim. I know I don't.

                Which makes you gullible for thinking you honestly have such an ability.

                1. aguasilver profile image86
                  aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Lets not take DH's topic off subject, you are entitled to think as you will, it makes no difference to me, or the topic. I was merely answering Rays flippant assumption.

              2. Cagsil profile image81
                Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                How would you know you're not gullible. Almost every action you've taken and shown on HubPages forums says otherwise because those who cannot see past themselves cannot see they are gullible. So, you can say it all you like, but actions speak louder than your words do.

          2. LewSethics profile image60
            LewSethicsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Wow, ten years doing mind control on people and running international businesses.  We have a Liar's Contest here every fall and would like you to be our guest speaker aquasilver, if that is really your name.

            1. aguasilver profile image86
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              My name, my real name, is easily found, but hey, you think whatever you like Lew, that is your name isn't it? Mr Sethics? smile

              1. LewSethics profile image60
                LewSethicsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I won't answer you, I'm afraid anything I say will be used to control my mind.

                1. aguasilver profile image86
                  aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Nah, I stopped all that years ago, besides which, looks like your mind is already controlled.

  3. janesix profile image60
    janesixposted 4 years ago

    Are you trying to equate this scenario with Jesus' salvation? Not sure what you're trying to get at.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image90
      Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Yes Jane. My point is in this scenario, I have saved you even if you rejected it. So Jesus has saved everyone, thus there is no hell.

      1. Jane Bovary profile image89
        Jane Bovaryposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        DH,

        I don't understand how Jesus  could have 'saved mankind'  as a package deal- are all our sins interwoven? That is, is one if us sinned we are all eternally to blame? We are all born with sin because of it, even before we've had a chance to understand what sinning means? That doesn't seem very just.

        But even if we were to accept that notion, (and this is what I really don't understand about the Christian faith}, how could Jesus's sacrifice get us off the hook?  How is it in any way moral that one man can save others from their sin by sacrificing himself for them? If I did something horrible and someone else took the punishment for me by laying down his life, that wouldn't right any wrongs - it'd just make things morally worse.

        Jesus sacrificing himself on the crucifix makes  no more moral sense than slitting a sacrificial goats throat on an altar and expecting it to provide absolution, even if the goat goes willingly. Scapegoats do-not equal moral justice.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image90
          Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Jane, our sins are our own and we do not inherit a sinful state from our parents or fom Adam and Eve. In the psalms David praises God because he made him in his mother's womb. Therefore how can that which God made be sinful or born in sin? It was the Bishop Augustine who had personal issues with sin that invented the Original Sin doctrine. It's a big fat lie. We are born perfect without any sin. It only by subsequent exposure to the world, becoming self aware, and by our on choices that we sin.

          Now because everyone has sinned, that God stepped in to do something about it. Say I committed some crime against you, but just before the judge passes sentence, out of love you ask the judge if you could serve the sentence in my place. That's what Jesus did, and it does not depend upon us doing anything.

          The sacrificing of animals under the Mosaic law was designed to reinforce the personal cost of sin. If every week I have to hand over a sheep, pretty soon I might decide to stop sinning. But here, this was a pattern of what was to come where God's sacrifice would end all sacrifices.

    2. A Thousand Words profile image80
      A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      It's actually a fascinatingly great analogy. Kudos. DH.

      1. Chris Neal profile image82
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        It was an interesting one but it missed some key points of actual salvation, what we're being saved from and who is actually saving us.

  4. 0
    Emile Rposted 4 years ago

    I get what you are saying and I agree. I think the whole idea of salvation on a cosmic scale has been skewed by too many attempts to  justify believing that it wasn't an act of faith. And it's a difficult concept to grasp, unless you attempt to mirror that faith in humanity.   

    It is easy to love a concept you create and continue to build on with fantasy. Much more difficult to  lovingly embrace reality.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image90
      Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Absolutely.

      Now some Christians will proudly wear their 'salvation' medal that they think they earnt by believing as if by their believing it validates the salvation. But there is no boasting because, they didn't choose salvation, because Jesus already made it happen for everyone.

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        If you read the Bible, you'd know it is as Paul said-----a Christian boasts only in the Lord.   It's not "credit" that we have for accepting Christ.  It's to HIS credit that the offer is even there for us to accept.   And what person wouldn't easily Love the Lord who laid down His own life for them/us?   Ah.  But some do refuse.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image90
          Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Oh contrair Brenda. Christians boast all the time that "they were wise enough to accept Jesus into their hearts", and then take a superior attitude to others.

          1. 0
            Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Maybe some do, I dunno.
            And the rest....it could be that the listener hears only what he/she wants to hear and condemns the Christian as boastful.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image59
              brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              exactly what happens.
              oooh somebody mentioned hell and sin! OMG they are terrorising me.

              its just their vain perceptions

              1. 0
                Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                No kidding!  That's their attitudes! smile
                Well, they kinda alternate between whining and mocking.

                1. Castlepaloma profile image23
                  Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I would want to live in both of your shoes and fight the other 10,000 Gods to the End of Time and threaten all the non members of Yahweh with Hell

                  Have a nice very day

                  1. 0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    We don't have to fight the other "gods".  Jesus already won that battle.  We only have to fight the temptation to be swayed by the other "gods".  And indeed we need Christ to even do that.  Humans have no real power on their own, except the power of choosing.

                    Let me qualify that just a bit.  Christians have the Spirit inside them.  And indeed the Bible says we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness.  I'm saying the battle is a spiritual/Spiritual one.  Jesus already won the battle.  But we as humans have to understand that we are not Him, so we have an ongoing battle, one in which we need Christ to win for us.  At stake is our own spiritual well-being, as well as that of other humans.

  5. TheRebelEnigma profile image59
    TheRebelEnigmaposted 4 years ago

    My take: You merely only saved my life. To me salvation is eternity, not what takes place in my miniscule amount of time here on Earth. I would also like to argue that your "salvation" was strictly reactionary, not out of grace and love. If the bear takes me, who do you think would be next?  Interesting take on salvation though, I really enjoyed this perception.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image90
      Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Yes this saving from the bear is only temporary, but Jesus often presented temporary ideas like bread, grain, figs, pearls, to illustrate eternal things.

  6. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago

    Well, Disappearinghead, Mark just answered your question quite definitively.  He openly and decidedly rejected Salvation.  Who knows for sure his motivation, whether it be to prove he could, or whether he really doesn't care?    But are you clear on it now?

    By the way, God's willingness to extend the offer of Salvation is what's "unconditional".  His Love is unconditional. Jesus died on the Cross while mankind was still in its sins.    But as common sense tells us, a person has to be willing to reach out and take the helping hand that's offered to them.  That acceptance is the part that's conditional.   When the Bible said to choose, it meant choose, and it still means choose.

    1. Druid Dude profile image60
      Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      And that is the limit of Free Will. God can't 'Make' you accept him...but, whether you accept or not, he still moves you where he chooses you to be. Accept, and you go willingly.

    2. Disappearinghead profile image90
      Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Bingo. That love is unconditional under all conditions. In the bear situation, did I stop to wait for you to reach out? No. If humanity's sin was laid on Jesus and he paid the price so it was dealt with, how can God logically remove that sin back from Jesus' shoulders AFTER it was dealt with, then put it back, together with price, on the one who doesn't believe?

      If all sin is paid for by Jesus why do you exclude the sin of unbelief and insist that Jesus did not take care of this one as well? If Mark's sins are forgiven, (which they are because that forgiveness was enacted before he was born) how can the single sin of unbelief still be held against him?

      1. Druid Dude profile image60
        Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        If I put you on a plane, would you insist that it is a train? Not believing doesn't make you a sinner. Taking credit or falsely assigning it, and yes, it is forgivable, but only if you accept the origination of it. There is no 'Catch-22'. It is held against you until you accept. The real question should be 'What, or who are we? Is it possible that my soul could continue to suffer if I don't look up and say; ALRIGHT ALREADY! YOU'RE THERE< I REALLY BELIEVE YOU ARE!

        1. Disappearinghead profile image90
          Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          To the Christian, not believing does make someone a sinner. They say whether or not you believe in God, it makes no difference, God exists. So it is with salvation.

          1. DoubleScorpion profile image85
            DoubleScorpionposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I am not sure if non-belief is a sin...Sin is more of an action type thing. (or lack of action). Just because someone doesn't believe in a God doesn't make them a sinner. I know plenty of "non-believers" who live free of sin type actions. I even know a few that live better "Christian" lives than the majority of the Christians I know. They just don't know if there is a God or not...

            1. aguasilver profile image86
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I agree

              1. RustyW profile image87
                RustyWposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Aquasilver,
                An "atheist" does not believe in God (though He may exist), while an agnostic simply says that He does not exist.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  The "A" in front of the word is a clue here/

                  A = lack of.

                  An a-theist lacks a belief in a god.
                  An a-gnostic does not know.

              2. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Changed your tune then?

                Luke 12:8-10: “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

                LOL

                1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                  brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  blaspheming the holy spirit means to live in unbelief. While a person lives in unbelief they cannot be saved and christ is also thereby disowned.

                  Its not a lol situation, its a very serious situation

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    No - it is a LOL situation. lol

                    It is also sad to see a grown man believe such nonsense. sad

            2. Disappearinghead profile image90
              Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I think they do believe that unbelief is a sin. Otherwise God could not send them to hell for unbelief. They need it to be a sin to support the hell argument.

              1. 0
                Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Surprisingly, Mark just debunked your universal salvation theory.  There are indeed some things in the Bible that even an avowed atheist can interpret.
                And there are many more Scriptures that verify and confirm that unbelief is a sin.    One passage calls it "evil". 
                Hebrews 3: 12:
                "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

                That tells us that unbelief is a sin, and that even a Believer can reject Christ, which would mean he gives up his Salvation.

                There are remedies for unbelief.  Praying, asking God to give you a heart of belief and trust, is a remedy.  There's Scripture for that.  We all make choices.  God hasn't taken away our freedom to choose Him or to choose the Adversary.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

                  Weird - you are working for the Adversary by living in sin. Divorce is a mortal sin. There are remedies for divorce. Simply go back and live as man and wife with your one true husband as decreed by Jesus.

                  Oh wait.................. lol

                  What a bad christian you are. My great Grandma would have known how to deal with an adulteress such as yourself - she was a real Christian.

                  1. 0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    As usual, Mark, you pretend to not understand the concept of repentance and forgiveness.   Or else you understand but choose to take the route of condemning Christians like me.  We've been down that road before, and it's a pity you choose to keep veering off onto that tangent.  I said there are some things in the Bible that even an avowed atheist can interpret.  Are you upset that I didn't say you can interpret everything?  lol

                    I thank God you aren't God.

                2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Hi Brenda

                  Yes humbling ones self before a greater authority is contrary to the will of the flesh.

                  But you have reminded readers of Gods solution..

                  A God who longs to teach ,guide and restore all that the moth has damaged.

                  Often people only notice BIG sins ie BIG actions ,the world has influenced us to be shocked by sensationalism , but God has always been concerned with the heart,another words not so much about what we do (or who we are) but by what we really think ...( ya 'know the side we dont always reveal on the outside)..smile

                  1. 0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    So true.  Thanks Eaglekiwi.  A voice of reason in an unreasonable world is a real Blessing, and you're that voice right now as you've been several times!  Love ya smile

                3. jacharless profile image82
                  jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Sin comes with a prescriptions for pain management {remedies} ???
                  Another shot of Holie-Molie Morphine and everything is good to go?!
                  But if the med's don't work, then what? But if the preacher -err- pharmacist can't refill the prescription, or biblical insurance runs out, then what?

                  Like salvation, sin belongs to no man.
                  Yet, countless attempt to lay claim to the effect of sin, in the same manner they attempt to lay claim the effect of salvation -allop and skewed, for the sake of reason.

                  `splains the duality, for sure.

                  James.

                4. Disappearinghead profile image90
                  Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  No he didn't. That passage in no way states that anyone goes to hell does it, explicitly or implicitly.

                  As for unbelief, you obviously believe this is an unforgivable sin that is excluded from Jesus' sacrifice.

                  1. aguasilver profile image86
                    aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Anyone who does not believe, will obviously not repent for the sins they accumulate daily in their lives.

                    It's not the act of unbelief that causes the problems, it's the fact that there is no forgiveness possible by Christ that will weigh the soul of an unbeliever down, by their sins, and lay them open to deception and destruction by the enemy

              2. DoubleScorpion profile image85
                DoubleScorpionposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I would agree that the majority of Christian think that disbelief is a sin...

                I don't think they are correct...

            3. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Is it not written that God gives faith (belief) to those that HE Chooses and NOT to those whom he doesn't?

                I don't believe that he would send anyone to hell (if it does exist?) ..   simply because God didn't give that person Faith!

      2. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Still you don't understand the difference between an offer and acceptance of that offer.  Nor repentance and forgiveness.  It's a rather common mistake.  But vitally important.

        The offer is perfect, because the Offering (Jesus) was and is perfect.
        The intended recipients, however, are imperfect.  When we realize that, we are humbled, and hopefully willing to accept the offer because we know HE really CAN save us.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image90
          Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          It's not CAN save us but HAS saved us. We cannot accept that which has already been done. If someone offers me £1000 for my crappy car, I can accept or reject because the action is happening now.

          1. Druid Dude profile image60
            Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I reiterate: I am not a christian. What makes you think they are the experts? Most don't seem to know much about Jesus and probably less about sin. I did say that non-belief will be held against you. (As will all unrepented sin.) Here's the thing. If I say "stop poking out puppy dogs eyes because it is a wrong thing to do...if you don't stop, then forgiveness never comes to the fore. You continue in your old ways, and the blood of Christ doesn't rid you of sin. because you cling to it, The sacrifice can't remove it from you.

            1. Disappearinghead profile image90
              Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry DD but I did not mean you to think I was calling you a Christian.

              The sacrifice does not prevent me from doing that which is wrong, but it does cover the penalty for doing that wrong. But that does not give licence to continue doing wrong. I should do right because that is the right thing to do, and not be motivated by the fear of the penalty of doing wrong.

  7. RustyW profile image87
    RustyWposted 4 years ago

    Of course a person can reject salvation through the act of sinning. Whenever we SIN, we are actually and voluntarily, acting in disobedience to God's will. Jesus came to save us all on a "package deal", as this was the Father's will. He died a physical death for all of us up on that cross in Calvary--not just one or two of us. Whether or not we choose to accept this salvation is OUR own decision, which is why God gave each one of us a "will' to use (hopefully for Him). If he wanted a species of morons, He would have had each one of us pre-programmed to serve Him--which we obviously are not (Just look at the condition of the world). Instead, He has opted for us to seek Him, and in turn His Spirit will descend upon us. And no, all of our sins are not interwoven, if they were, we would all have been doomed from the very beginning when Eve slid Adam a big, "Red Delicious" sin (the ironic thing is that the proverbial "apple" of Eve was most likely not an apple, but rather a pomegranate, since apples are not indigenous to the Middle-East). Essentially, we AERE all doomed from this original sin, however, THIS IS THE VERY REASON THAT CHRIST CAME! By virtue of the "original sin" God had condemned mankind, and was ready to wipe him out. Enter (some 10-12,000 years later) Jesus. What many do not realize is that the Jews had been watching for signs of a messiah for centuries prior to the entrance of Jesus; in fact, every Tom, Dick, and Jaime that came down the pike with half a brain and a kind word got picked for messiah duty. The ultimate truth, however, is that JESUS alone was, and is, the true Messiah...not by virtue of contempt, but by virtue of HIS words and acts.

    Thank you.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image90
      Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      So each time you sin, you reject salvation?

      Original sin was unknown as a concept for thousands of years until invented by Augustine. If God made me in my mother's womb fearfully and wonderfully, at what point did he create the sin in me so that I would be born in sin?

      Deuteronomy 24:16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each of you will die for your own sin.

      Thus if Adam and Eve sinned, that's their problem before God, not mine. I will not die for their sin.

      1. Jane Bovary profile image89
        Jane Bovaryposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Yet that's contradicted by this passage in Revelation (about Jezebel)

        2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
        2:23 And I will strike her children dead



        So if there's no original sin, when Jesus made his ultimate sacrifice it was a kind of pre-emptive strike against all future sinning?



        You still didn't explain how the scapegoating of Jesus  can be morally just..but nevermind.

        1. Druid Dude profile image60
          Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I personally find christian dogma surrounding Jesus to be barbaric. Eating the body and drinking the blood....ritualistic cannibalism not too damned far from the Aztec religion.

          1. Jane Bovary profile image89
            Jane Bovaryposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I know what you mean

      2. Druid Dude profile image60
        Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        But, in refusing to recognize the Captain  and acknowledge that he is the Captain, give him his RIGHT as Captain, then that puts you in mutiny...and you will be flogged and keel-hauled. Can't just let sinners go on sinning, cause then everybody turns away, and God might just as well retire. (He's not ready yet...nobody has given him his gold watch, and he's not going until he gets one.) I will say that he is a firm believer in "If ya can't mash 'em with might, baffle 'em with B.S."

           D.H. I get the impression that you aren't actually non-religious as anti-christian or anti-semite. Islam makes even less sense, but, there is a path that can be followed, one dictated by logic, wherein it all makes perfect sense. Thing is, nobody can give it to you. You have to seek that path. As far as O.S. goes, I don't focus on it because, according to Jesus, a child is the most blessed thing in heaven, and not to be harmed by adults. As far as I know, disobedience is the O.S. and I define O.S. as being that of Adam and Eve. We merely walk in their footsteps. It is a childish thing which we must learn to put away.

        1. Jane Bovary profile image89
          Jane Bovaryposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Without the concept of original sin, which (according to the idea) we are all complicit in, there would be no need for the big event of Christ's sacrifice to save humanity as a whole. Sin would be on a case by case  basis, wouldn't it?.

        2. Druid Dude profile image60
          Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Why would you be blamed for something someone else did? If that were the case, no wonder everythings so screwed up. I got enough on my plate. Don't you. I would agree that we all commit the same sin. Disobedience...that is, if you are agreed that's what it was. Some would disagree. Whatever it was, it made one monkey hide it's eyes, another hold it's mouth, and the third closed it's ears.smile

          1. Dirling profile image80
            Dirlingposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Original Sin is not something that 'happened.' We ARE born with it. It is, quite simply, human nature. It's the tendency every human being has to be selfish and self-serving, even to the detriment of others. This is something every person struggles against and the reason our parents have such a difficult job teaching us discipline and empathy. As my mother used to say, you don't teach a child to MISbehave.

            To me it makes no difference what you believe. A man's character is known by his actions, not by his words or beliefs.

            1. Cagsil profile image81
              Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Actually, you would be wrong. The "original sin" was an action taken. So, you're wrong. Adam and Eve were not born in Sin. It was their joint actions for which "caused" the original sin.
              This would not be accurate, providing the above forementioned original sin, UNTIL Jesus supposedly traded his life for every single person's sin, wiping it out, making everyone all new again.
              BS. It is not human nature and to think it is is foolish. Why? Because, no human is or has been determined bad/evil without action. It's understood that humans are good. A baby born is not born into sin. A baby is good.
              More BS. People are not naturally selfish.
              Really? My parents had no problem raising me. And trust me when I say, my parents were not the brightest bulbs.
              Actually, you do if you don't lead by example.
              I disagree. Irrationality must be addressed.
              This is the only thing you said I would agree with.

              1. Dirling profile image80
                Dirlingposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Fair enough; this is only my opinion, and nobody has to agree with it. No need to get punchy.

                1. Cagsil profile image81
                  Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I wasn't getting punchy. I was just dispelling your post.

              2. Haunty profile image84
                Hauntyposted 4 years ago in reply to this
  8. Jane Bovary profile image89
    Jane Bovaryposted 4 years ago

    From my perspective it doesn't make sense whichever way you slice it. If there is no original sin then what was the big sacrifice all about? If not all of us are sinners then Christ didn't need to scapegoat himself to save everyone .

    If we are all sinners, just  because 'everyone sins anyway' then that means we are all destined to be sinners by default, even before we are born and if that's the case we might as well be liable for original sin. We can't win.

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I tjink it was all about the covenant which was made with Abraham. and every breach that the Jewish nation executed against that covenant.  SOooo  a new covenant had to be made. The old covenant had to be balanced out before a new deposit is made. This kinda brings us back to where we were in the first place.

  9. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago

    That is the point...we are all sinners. AND...one more time...I am not a christian. Firstly, I know that I have done things against others which I shouldn't. I must repent for salvation. Recognizing, if I were a christian, the fact of Jesus' sacrifice, his sacrifice for me would be in vain if I did not repent. Denial of salvation. Being that I'm not christian, I don't believe in the christian salvation. I simply understand that it's not, nor was it intended to be, a blanket amnesty. It does require one to change their ways, because, by not, it is a demonstration that accepttance of Christ has not yet been acheived by the individual. 'Go and sin no more!'

    1. 72
      Robertr04posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Well said Dude.

  10. jacharless profile image82
    jacharlessposted 4 years ago

    One cannot accept nor reject what is not theirs to begin with! No one has title-ship or claim to it. No believer or non-believer can say otherwise, no matter how they twist it. They cannot possess nor acquire salvation itself in any respect.

    How weaver, one may accept or reject the effect of salvation, which is precisely where this argument exists. One can apply as many earmarks -pro and con- as conceivable  regarding only the effect.

    What has been argued since is just that, the effect of said gift. The mentality of man certainly has proven the Neanderthal Effect -the Adamic Inception- is still largely accepted even as people accept and reject the effects of the gift of Salvation in a very aloof pseudo form.

    Where does the duality end? The grave? The Glory? How will you know until you embrace the probabilities of those effects without reserve, without reason, fear or disdain?

    James

    1. Disappearinghead profile image90
      Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      James,  you summarise the situation very well here, and I'm guessing that you hold the view that accepting or rejecting the effect does not overwrite the gift, so only has effect in this life.

      1. jacharless profile image82
        jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Kevin.
        Yes, I do indeed hold such a view. And, as Emile said, knowledge then and now has changed regarding the relationship between Creator-creation. This was not only expected, but highly anticipated! The continued realization/understanding or reversal of the Inception.

        Look at the changes throughout the last five centuries alone, how both doctrines have peaked and are now dissolving. The Effect War is slowly winding down. Science & Sensation can no longer provide validity to their claim of Salvation. Actually, they cannot even retain claim to the Effect, by their own guidelines. What a muddled mess. lol.

        After x-thousand years have they realized this? Have they come to terms with the reality they cannot overwrite -or possess/own- the Gift; that unless they genuinely embrace the Effect, by the Effects method, they are chasing tail? I am inclined to 'believe' people are coming close to it, if not directly at that very crossroad.

        James.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image90
          Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          So we are singing off the same hymn sheet.

          It's always a little unnerving to lay ones thoughts bare to the world, but I thought it was about time I made my stand. I may be in error but at least I know my Father will not torch me for it.

  11. 0
    SirDentposted 4 years ago

    Things are written out in such a simple way that we many times miss what is being said.  In the words of Jesus Himself,  "Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

  12. rLcasaLme profile image50
    rLcasaLmeposted 4 years ago

    I believe that if someone was saved, he cannot reject it. If one believes he had rejected it, then he wasn't saved at all in the first place.

    1 John 2:19:
    They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

  13. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago

    'That whosoever BELIEVES in him shall have everlasting life'

  14. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 4 years ago

    Can you choose salvation or not?

       
       What comes to mind is .. IF  God wanted for you to have it ?  Can you keep him from giving it to YOU


        Edit  Coments were the product of the conversation and not any particular post.

    1. aguasilver profile image86
      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, I rather think you can, as it seems to me that although the offer is to whosoever, which is all inclusive, there are conditions attached.

      Reject the conditions and you reject the offer.

      Does anyone think that the gentleman reported on here will be acceptable to God without his repentance, from a broken spirit and contrite heart?

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … carpa.html

      I do not say that he could not have found repentance during his life, I am not the judge of that, but IF he did not repent, who thinks God will save him irrespective of his murderous life and unrepentant condition?

      ...and would you like to be his room mate if God did offer unconditional universal salvation?

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        To tell the truth!   I don't think it would bother me as much as you think.
        That person would be in a different enviroment;e would have gotten over the hurts inflicted upon him that caused him to be the way that he was; and he wouldn't be that way any more.  NOT while wearing his white robe.

           THAT is; ....  "If" he was my roomate ?    I quess I'd have to not object.
        and hopefully,  I understand it?

        1. aguasilver profile image86
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Why not?

          He has (hypothetically) refused Gods salvation whilst alive, murdered a large number of people, and dies in prison of Aids, and then, by Gods Grace finds that despite never making any decision or choice he is saved to spend eternity with God.

          Why would he suddenly change into Mr Nice Guy?

          And if that is the fact (he gets salvation irrespective of his behaviour) then why bother with anything during this life?

          Sorry, my bible states that salvation does have conditions attached, albeit not onerous conditions, but still a decision needs to be made to replace the worlds authority over ones life with Gods authority.

          1. 0
            SirDentposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Good points Agua.  For more info see the post I made just above yours.

          2. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Good points Agua. As Mr. Sir just mentioned - the unbelievers get burned along with all the other abominations. According to your beliefs - our friend Ernest got what was coming to him from the Loving Super Daddy huh? sad

            1. aguasilver profile image86
              aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Our friend Earnest most certainly got whatever was coming to him when he stood before Christ for judgement.

              However only God knows what that judgement contained, so your continuing to try and take cheap shots about Earnest is rather irrelevant, personally I would be more concerned about your own condition.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                So this is a lie:

                Rev_21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

                Interesting.

                No - I am more concerned with why people such as yourself who feel the need to push this psychopath god-thingy, threaten His fiery judgement, and then say they do not know what god's judgement will be.

                Which is it? Do you know what god's judgement is - as you keep telling us you do (and your majik book is pretty clear about) - or do you not know what it is as you also keep telling us you don't?

                This is why your religion causes so many conflicts - people like you with no moral compass - and I do find it odd how often you tell porky pies - because liars go to the burning lake along with the unbelievers.

                Save me a seat by the fire. wink

                1. Castlepaloma profile image23
                  Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Don't you just love threats of burning desires

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    The Cognitive Dissonance is strong in this one. big_smile

  15. Ithamar Fenerson profile image60
    Ithamar Fenersonposted 4 years ago

    This premise of the conditional salvation argument is wrong from the very beginning because you started from a hypothetical in an attempt to explain spiritual truth.  What's ironic is that this argument only happens among 'saved' folks.  Unsaved people don't go around arguing whether their salvation is conditional or not.

    But to add my IMO = 2 cents...The Scriptures are very clear that salvation begins and ends with God and God alone.  Salvation is unconditional meaning it does not depend on anything man can think, choose, or decide. The Book of Romans clearly describes the carnal mind as the enemy of God and is not capable of being subject to the laws of God.

    Jesus said in the Book of John that He did not come for nor pray for the whole world but those that the Father sent to him.

    Consider Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead.  This is an excellent illustration of how the New Birth works.  Your argument is that when Jesus gave the call "Lazarus come forth", Lazarus could have chosen to reject Jesus and not come out.  My premise is that Lazarus could never have answered any call until God gave him life because dead men don't answer calls.  The book of Ephesians describes us as being "dead in our trespasses." Regeneration comes before repentance.  God is the cause, not the effect.  We all deserve death.  God chooses to save some and give them life.

    This theme runs rampant in the Bible.  God destroys the earth with a flood and saved an elect few.  No one says a word.  God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah...all quiet.  The book of Revelation describes the Tribulation and how no one left will escape except the remnant of 144,000 that God chose and set aside.  No one says a word until you show that God is choosing an elect few to salvation in the midst of a world that deserves eternal death.

    My argument can best be summed up by Ephesians 2:8,9, "for we are saved by grace through faith, and EVEN THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES.  It is the gift of God and not of work, lest any man should boast.

    Is not my emphasis above stating that even the faith to believe for salvation is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God so that I cannot go around bragging about the "work" I did to get saved by believing on him?

    The difference between saved and unsaved is not about a choice they made.  The difference is that God revealed himself fully to a saved person and gave them a new spiritual man that can now understand the matters of the spiritual realm, for we can only worship God in Spirit and Truth.  This revelation also happened to Saul on the road to Damascus.  God does not do this for people that He has not chosen for salvation.

    That is what grace and mercy is all about for His children.

  16. 0
    SirDentposted 4 years ago

    Rev_21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    There would be no need for a second death if everyone will be saved anyway.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Yup - the whole thing is making less and less sense the more you look at it.

      What a loving Super Daddy. Burns the unbelieving huh?

      Wow - got to wonder why you guys grovel to such a total psychopath. Why is it you claim to worship such an unreasonable deity? Could it be becaue you are fearful?

      Save me a seat by the fire.

      1. aguasilver profile image86
        aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Not so much the unbelieving, more the un-repented sinners, who may also be unbelievers...and again YOU are raising the subject of burning... how odd?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Please stop lying about me. Mr Sir bought up and quoted about the burning. It says unbelievers, not un-repented sinners. How odd. Can you read?

          No moral compass - that is your problem. sad You do know the Invisible Super Daddy burns liars as well - right?

          Save me a seat by the fire.

          1. aguasilver profile image86
            aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            My apologies Mark, missed his quote from Revelation, but the rest of the statement is correct:

            Not so much the unbelieving, more the un-repented sinners, who may also be unbelievers.

            Which may or may not apply to yourself, only you and Christ can determine that.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Apology accepted. In fact - I forgive you also.

              Weird - no mention of unrepentant sinners in that quote. In case you missed it:

              Rev_21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

              (Copyright Sir Dent)

              1. aguasilver profile image86
                aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Correct again Mark... I commend you! smile

                I especially like how you seem intent on proving that universal salvation is a misnomer, and proving it quite successfully from scripture.

                Thanks for forgiving me, that's good also.

                I obviously need to pay more attention to my bible, your correction is welcomed.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Now you need to take the next step, because conditional salvation does not make any sense with a loving god.

                  Now your god is a psychopathic nutcase in dire need of attention who burns people for eternity for using the brains he supposedly gave them. In fact - according to the bible - our friend Ernest is being burned as we speak.

                  I find it hard to understand why you would choose to worship a god like that, or not be able to understand that this belief is so illogical that you need to actually lie to defend it, thereby condemning yourself to the fate you keep warning everyone else about. This is called cognitive dissonance, and recognizing that you have a problem is the first step in curing yourself from this affliction.

                  1. aguasilver profile image86
                    aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    ...and that is where we disagree, because to me unconditional salvation makes no sense.

                    If the whole point of any program is to differentiate between those who qualify and those who do not, everybody getting a pass mark is idiocy.

                    From that observation, it's a short step to understanding that we need to define what constitutes qualification and disqualification, and decide whether we want to qualify, or if we are capable of qualifying.

                    I deliberately flunked my 11 plus because I did not want to go to Grammar School, and did the same for my GCE's because attending Uni made no sense to me.

                    Some would say that I made the wrong decisions at that time, and they may be correct, but I did have to make a decision and I made one that ensured I did not qualify, despite the fact that I could have done had I chosen to follow the rules and play the game they offered.

      2. brotheryochanan profile image59
        brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I do not think fear is the major motivator, maybe in times past, fear may have been a tool for the hierarchy and a conscience checker for the masses. But today, because information has grown, we have a better ability to understand the meaning behind the translated word which is especially important in the greek to english or the aramaic to greek. We christians find a new meaning behind the face of the translated to english version when we examine the definitions of words that sometimes we take for granted and thereby we have a deeper appreciation for God because of these 'nuggets'. A deeper and wider understanding of God involves the believer into better understanding the God of heaven and earth and, also, the personal relationship with his spirit definitely aids to a closer friendship with our invisible deity friend.
            Clearly most if not all the christians i know are deeply thankful to God for all that He has done for them, which i think, over-rides the fear factor.

  17. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 4 years ago

    This is a little off topic ?   

       Lets talk about the beast which rises up out of the sea in Rev 13.

       God ordains it?   God spoke it into being, 300 or 2000 years before it comes into being. 
        Thinking about this brings a multitude of questions/topics into my mind!

    1. Team Wiseman profile image85
      Team Wisemanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Ok. What do you say the Beast is?

    2. 0
      SirDentposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Start a new thread and I will be happy to join in as I can.  Right now I should have already been in bed.  I have been studying a little in Revelation but not much about the beast yet.

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you  I would apreciate that.   
        But  not tonight  It's 12:40 AM  and my bed time too.

          Good night SirDent  sleep well

        1. Castlepaloma profile image23
          Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          SirDent

          Just wondering, what is that your drinking in your photo?

  18. aguasilver profile image86
    aguasilverposted 4 years ago

    Anyone believe that this sweetheart will be spending eternity with God?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p … qVhqoHuViw

    and if not, where would you put him?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      LAWL (One up from LOL)

      Sweetie - when you are dead you are dead. No majikal afterlife. No options. No salvation. Nothing. You are dead.

      Sorry - see how much simpler that is than these arguments you guys have over what the majik book means and whether the Muslims are correct that you are all burning in hell?

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Death takes away the option of choice; it doesn't take away Salvation.  That's why a person must choose while they're alive.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Rubbish. There is no such thing as salvation. There is no such thing as an afterlife. This is it. Your psychopathic, needy little god does not exist.

          Have you repented for your adulterous activity today? wink

          1. 0
            Brenda Durhamposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well, Mark, today I haven't performed any adulterous actions.  And I've been forgiven of the past "adultery". 
            You can have forgiveness too, if you wish.
            Have you repented of your rebellious unbelief?

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              So - how many times can you commit adultery, repent and get forgiveness knowing you are going to do it again? Is it the same with rapists and murderers? Murder, grovel, get forgiven, do it again?

              Is there a quota or something?

              I don't need to repent. How funny that you think that stuff is real. lol

      2. brotheryochanan profile image59
        brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Sooo when you view the sun in its course along the sky. Without prior scientific knowledge your "seen" accountativity of the suns route would probably be that the sun travels around the earth.
        Orrrr when you look down do you perceive a spinning planet earth?

        Sometimes my friend what we see is not what actually is happening.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          No - we have moved on, cousin. We know the earth goes around the sun, and we know the earth rotates on it's own axis.

          Or do you deny these scientific advances as well as our understanding of biology?

          1. aguasilver profile image86
            aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            He was referring to what you do not know, and like those who lived in a time before we did know about the suns route and the earth's motion, you deny anything that has not yet been proven.

            Not yet, being the operative word.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              LOL

              What a feeble argument - seeing as you claim to know something by majik and that is not how we determine these things.

              Physical reality is different to majik. Sorry - is that why you are so angry at people who refuse to believe nonsense?

              1. aguasilver profile image86
                aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I am not angry at people who see things differently, that is their right, after all before we did know about the suns route and the earth's motion, you would have been a sceptic about those issues also, you just move your ignorance with the times.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  How funny - calling me ignorant because I refuse to believe some one such as yourself. What a high opinion you have of yourself. No wonder your religion causes so many fights.

                  Odd you don't understand you are actually making my argument for me. The reason we used to believe the sun went around the earth was for religious reasons. lol

                  We have since proven scientifically that your religious revealed knowledge was actually garbage and the earth revolves around the sun.

                  The only reason anyone thinks the earth was created by majik is for religious reasons.

                  Your majikal super being is shrinking every time we make a scientific advancement.

                  All the things you claim we used to know came from religious thinking. We have slowly disproven them since religionists such as yourself lost the power to murder anyone who questioned their "un-seen knowledge." Evolution, for example, proves man was not created in our current form.

                  One less piece of religious "un-seen knowledge" down the toilet - won't be long before you have no where left to hide.

                  Calling me ignorant for not believing the facts you claim to be able to see but I cannot? You are the one moving your ignorance. Claiming to know something which you don't actually know is real ignorance. Try getting a proper education instead of majik "un-seen knowledge," that you did not have to actually learn anything for - you will see I am right.

                  1. aguasilver profile image86
                    aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I guess time will tell Mark.

                  2. brotheryochanan profile image59
                    brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Evolution, for example, proves man was not created in our current form.

                    you need to brush up on your evolution understanding also

          2. brotheryochanan profile image59
            brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Sorry you could not understand my post.
            I was referring to the fact that what a person sees is not the only truth.
            I look down i do not see a spinning planet and yet the planet does spin
            When you look around you do not see a God. Yet there is one.

            All that you see mark is not all there is.
            and that was my point
            pretty simple don't you think

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Pretty stupid actually. The planet is there cousin. I can see it. See how your analogy is garbage?

  19. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 4 years ago

    Disappearinghead what I get from reading your comments is the idea that salvation is already given.

    I'm afraid salvation is not already given we are all destined to hell and it is only by admitting we are sinners and accepting Jesus sacrifice for our sins can we be granted salvation.

    These principles apply only to the believer.

  20. Ron Montgomery profile image59
    Ron Montgomeryposted 4 years ago

    The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.

    ―God Is Not Great


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1. aguasilver profile image86
      aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      That certainly fits into the picture.

      Matthew 18:3
      Amplified Bible (AMP)

      And said, Truly I say to you, unless you repent (change, turn about) and become like little children [trusting, lowly, loving, forgiving], you can never enter the kingdom of heaven [at all].

      All a matter of perspective....

  21. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 4 years ago

    I think it proves something when people think that God is bound in his actions according to our interpretations of that which is written in a book.

  22. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago

    "Go, and sin no more." Seems pretty explanitory. Just because someone professes to be a christian, doesn't mean they are. Tell ya what, Mark...when you get to hell, ask around. Bet you find a large number of one time christians there.smile

    1. Castlepaloma profile image23
      Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      They have the HolyLands theme park near Disneyland

      When are the building a ride into Hell? I am game for some wild fun and maybe Mark  will find it a blast too

      This forum often tries to give us a ride for our time and energy
      Maybe we can laugh off Hell to death- together

      1. brotheryochanan profile image59
        brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        neither can be laughed off

        you will definitely die and be buried one day
        after that there is another death

        neither will be laughable

        1. Castlepaloma profile image23
          Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          lol lol lol

          Your group invented the hell ride, now enjoy it,

          Oh!!! you want me to join you on the HELL ride, no thanks, it's all yours to play and live with.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image59
            brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            our group invented....

            sorry but even if we go around the hell point there are so many other scriptures that point to some qualifying and some not qualifying.
            Qualifyers get to enter
            non-qualifyers do not enter

            whether its a burn or not event for the non qualifyers is irrelevant.
            God loves and says he will love and that really is the bottom line and the only line which matters in this new covenant of which we are so very fortunate to be able to take part in. It is so much simpler than the prior covenant of law that i often wonder just what people are grumbling against.
            Say a few words, invite God into their life and presto! entrance level one accomplished. Now learn and grow... how many people waste their lives doing puzzles and reading oliver twist like tomes or rebuilding cars or anything that only amounts to distraction from the glorious life on earth that God has planned for those that accept him. It really does make life so much more interesting and oh yeah, that other thing about after life that i don't worry about at all - its just another perk!

            1. Castlepaloma profile image23
              Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              brotheryochanan

              scriptures that point to some qualifying and some not qualifying.
              Qualifyers get to enter
              non-qualifyers do not enter

              So most are not qualifiers, how loving

  23. jacharless profile image82
    jacharlessposted 4 years ago

    There is no one who is not saved.
    Because if the Gift was reserved, in any manner, it makes everything bogus -meaning it makes Creator a respecter of persons or partial.

    However, the effect from that gift can be rejected -meaning the transformation and restoration to Life. That rejection of the Effects of the Gift does result in precisely what Adam went through -and every human being since: death.

    So, sorry to the Christians, the issue is not salvation.
    The issue has swung from accepting the reality of the Gift to "accepting the person who did the work" for the sake of accepting the work. Thus confirming one thing for sure: "believing if only because of the works themselves". Because there is no genuine faith.

    Conditional Salvation is the Law reinvented.
    This is precisely what has happened to form Christianity.

    To make peace between the Jews and early believing; to make peace with the  Romulus-Remus empire; to graft in the pagans of Europe; to established Western ideology, etc etc etc.

    James

    1. Disappearinghead profile image90
      Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Interesting point James. What do you say is the fate of those who reject the effect? God told Abraham he would rest with his fathers, which would include Adam.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Jimmy boy is a believer in conditions as well - he just wraps it up in esoterisism and pretends his ism is better than anyone else's.

        There is a far, far simpler explanation............

        1. jacharless profile image82
          jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Tsk, tsk, Zacchaeus, climb down from your lofty perch, in that terebinth tree, and let's talk a while.

          big_smile

          1. Disappearinghead profile image90
            Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Are you suggesting Mark is a short-arse? smile

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Esotericism is James's preferred 'ism. lol

              1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                and naturalism is my least favorite ism
                especially when compared to christianity
                it fails to measure up.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  How is that exactly? It is natural - as the invisible super being intended - not?

            2. jacharless profile image82
              jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Come to think of it... lol

      2. jacharless profile image82
        jacharlessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Correct, and Abram did.
        It took nearly 1,000 years for the final effect of the Inception to occur in Adam, but eventually it did.

        I always find it odd that most of the believing forget -or just overlook- the points in Torah -like say Passover or the Mercy Seat above the tomb of the law, staff, manna. Like Petra's brief, but astounding moment of "un-anointed faith". But the most troubling point, the epicenter if you will, the grave. This was what the entire dieing, buried, resurrection event was all about. Sure, lots more items included. Many know those earmarks, like the reversal of Babel, etc.

        Short of it, Kevin, those who reject the effect die like the rest, I suppose.
        Now, here is where New Age ideology takes over and stories about the 2nd-3rd Coming and this devil-dude incarnate, yada, yada. By making an excuse for rejecting said gift, but "accepting the person who did the work" & for "believing for the sake of the works themselves", now have a "salvation loophole". That loophole seemingly grants justification and proliferation of religion -be it technological or sensational. Which, to me, is still the Tree of Knowledge at work.

        James

        {funny humor from an old southern friend of mine: yup, ev`ryone seems to be laboring alright, and a lot of work being done. But, doesn't look like anything`s been accomplished `cept for the fact there's been alotta working & alotta laborin`."}

      3. brotheryochanan profile image59
        brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I think we read to much into this idea of adam being a father of abraham.
        Resting with the fathers is an idomatic way of saying
        a) the tribe
        b) those only who are accepted by God

        fathers does not define: all those who ever lived.

  24. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago

    That's the difference I'm trying to track, Mark. Original thought, inspiration, true invention relies on seeing clearly something that doesn't exist, and seeing all of the possibilities. You have no vision...therefore you are blind. You aren't seeing clearly, grasping to your own truth and letting nothing dissuade you from it. You'd make a fine christian.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry you don't understand. True invention relies on seeing what is possible and realizing it - not pipe dreams and lies of Druidism.

      You do make a fine Christian. wink

      1. brotheryochanan profile image59
        brotheryochananposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        True invention lies in seeing what could be and moving toward that point.

        Some see a life of beauty, truth and grace in God and they move toward that point.
        You come along with your "reality is only dictated by the 5 senses" rubbish and try to evangelize, wait, maybe brainwash - through repetition, you are quite the broken record in here - and try to rain on people's parades because you thought to enter into a forum with believers when you don't believe. hmmm.

        and you say christians don't use their brains, thats a bit of laugh - if it weren't so seriously psychotic of you.

        My mother is in the last stages of alzheimers. Do i blame God? No. In fact i have it all sussed out and am fine with it. I travel to ontario this week to adopt power of attourney and move them to where i live. Mom has always believed in Jesus - howbeit in an anglican way - but i thank God that he is removing the distractions of life from her to have a private chit chat. This may not seem like love but trust me God is always fervent to save people.
        Did you know that the spiritual aspect of people remains throughout this debilitating disease. She knows all the songs of her church still and she gets excited when jesus is mentioned and really enjoys prayer time.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          LOL

          What a feeble argument. Reality is dictated regardless of your 5 senses.

          Sorry you don't like being evangelized at. My mistake - I thought you guys were doing unto others as you wanted to be done unto.

          You are lying when you say that IO take it?

  25. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago

    Mark knows all. Mark sees all. Thought his last name was Know les.

  26. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago

    The best comedians don't laugh at their own jokes. Bad form. It's best to deliver your one liners deadpan.

  27. A Thousand Words profile image80
    A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago

    In the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, what did He say? "Forgive them Father, for they know no what they do." I think that about sums it up for me. At least, I think that statement is way more important than most Christians seem to think so, and it might give DH's view a little credit. If Jesus admitted that people don't know what they are doing, and asked God to forgive them for it, did God forgive them? Why did Jesus say it. This is for the Christian to ponder.

    I don't believe in this God, but, it's a refreshing, more coherent view of an all loving God, who needs no credit, who has no petty human needs/wants/actions.

    1. Chris Neal profile image82
      Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not entirely sure what you're driving at, though I think I agree with you for the most part. It was a very important statement, and it's been pored over for centuries by theologians. And preached on from pulpits.

 
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