Why do Christians tend to argue with non-believers? What are they trying to prove?
II Timothty 2:23-23 states,
"Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil"
I know we can disagree as Christians, but oh so often I see Christians arguing just for the sake of arguing. This is hurting them because it only validates the unbelievers' idea of hypocrisy.
Is it more typical or understandable when a non believer argues? My thought is that when someone has a very strong belief and encounters opposing views the natural reaction is often times to argue.
Yes I agree, but it can be done in a pleasant compassionate way; what I have been seeing in forums is that believers have been doing it an "holier than thou way".
You just quoted the bible with a quote saying that believer need not fight with these people, just smile at the evil non-believers, and you wonder why people argue in a "holier than thou way?"
I did not say just smile, you can discuss as opposed to arguing.
Sorry "be kind... patiently enduring evil"
The problem is that there really is no way to discuss the Bible with a nonbeliever. With someone undecided, sure... but a nonbeliever?
You can certainly discuss these topics with a unbeliever. Is it not smart to know where they are coming from? I have all ready met some intelligent people in the forums after only being here for five days! I respect them for their knowledge of the Bible all though they might not believe in it or Christianity. It is great for me to know where they are coming from, instead of throwing my ideas on them. So many believers "throw" their beliefs on others in a forceful, holier than thou, way which I think is completely unnecessary, rude, and idiotic.
So, overall, you can discuss; it is just how you are discussing.
Sometimes some people don't warrant compassionate behaviour. Jesus was not compassionate towards the Pharisees.
This is the type of question that can breed arguments. You think you've posted an intelligent and thought provoking OP.
Your statement could easily be perceived as saying the thoughts of non believers are ignorant, and the believer must patiently endure our evil and ignorant arguments.
It comes of as an attempt of holier than thou....or us....or somebody.
Actually it stemmed from what Christians have been saying on forums I have been reading lately. It saddens me to see what they are saying just for the sake of arguing. I am a believer myself, and I was actually pinning this act on us. I use to be the same way, because I was immature and did not heed to the scriptures I say I believe and hold to. So, now it just pains me to see believers going against scripture in the forums.
Thank you very much Fred. It has been very important to me lately.
as it should be im glad you wrote about it
Because they need to defend an irrational belief. It used to be considered "bad form," to point out that your religious beliefs are nonsense. Now that we have moved on as a society - if you say anything about the majik you believe in - there is likely to be some one telling you it is nonsense - especially online, although increasingly so in the "real world," also..
The cognitive dissonance is already strong inside of you and having an external focus (argumentative non-believer) gives you something to hang your hat on. Your religion has been completely misunderstood and it focuses on the external rather than the internal struggle. Most believers mistakenly think non believers are the problem that needs dealing with/converting/fighting with because they are agents of Stan.
This is why your religion causes so many fights. Always has done, always will do.
Mature believers know, without a shadow of doubt, that those who do not believe are NOT the issue, and we are relatively sure most are not agents of "Stan." lol
It IS about the internal------and hopefully the outside reflects. MY heart, my sinfulness, the fruits I bear; ME-- that is the only issue. As you mature and sins committed are fewer, you begin to focus on your sins of omission. Believers really aren't out to persecute anyone. We HONESTLY want everyone to know salvation.
Of course, we be human and messed up and all that; so we don't always go about it the best way.... Knows who's yankin' your chain? Read The Screwtape Letters.
Your external actions tell me you have not made the internal journey. Your outside reflects nothing I would want a part of. At least you admit YOU are the reason for the conflicts.
I don't need salvation - sorry. Once you actually mature - you may understand why. But that means doing some work - unlikely - as you have taken the blue placebo and sed the majik words.
No doubt Stan is very happy with you.
Just curious, what's your intention in starting the forum?
Looks like he wants to know why religious people spend so much time arguing and fighting with non believers and find out what they are trying to prove.
Why do you? And what are you trying to prove?
Is that trying to prove question to me Mark?
Why do you? What are you trying to prove? Your response to JessHubpages; did not know who the questions were targeted for.
The question was targeted at religious believers. Jesshubpages is an aggressive religionist who argues with non believers.
I am trying to prove that your religion causes conflict - and I am trying to prove it to you guys.
Apparently it is all my fault for not accepting the Truth you have for me though.
No it is not your fault at all, I was just curious who you were asking that question to. You do not need to accept anything I say on here. You will learn quickly that I am not like most others in the forums who try to argue their beliefs. I ask questions simply to hear peoples' responses from both sides of the spectrum.
Oh - I get told a lot that it is my fault for not accepting the Gift of Salvation/Word of God/Whatever Self Righteous BS, and if I would just shut up or accept what they tell me - there would not be any conflict.
Fact is - they stop evangelizing, I have nothing to talk to.
I was asking the question to Jesshubpages. But - you are on a road that will lead to frustration and despair here. There used to be quite a lot of "low key" believers to discuss irrational beliefs with, but they mostly get run off by the aggressive believers.
So you are saying I will get run off by the aggressive believers?
I am very compassionate in what I believe in, I just convey it differently. I am not forceful in my presentation of my beliefs.
You may not. All I can say is that most of the "compassionate" believers get run off and certainly get a hard time.
I mean - you posted biblical evidence that believers should not get involved in non-productive arguments.
Just a quick stroll through these forums will show you how many believers are not fans of that scripture. And "turning the other cheek" means slapping right back.
This is why your religion causes so many fights. Christianity is a "do as I say, not as I do," sort of belief system.......
Just as a matter of interest - how do you compassionately present this:
"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Yes I understand that believers are not fans of that scripture, that was the reason for asking the question in the first place. I was curious to hear their reasoning for not liking the passage. But, I guess they are hiding, as they are not getting involved in the forum.
How do I compassionately present that passage? Simple, I share the verse with whoever it is I am talking to, and if it is clear that they want nothing to do with it, then I do not force what I believe on them. All I can do is share what I believe, and if they do not accept or agree, that is all I can do. Hopefully, I will at least have planted a seed in their minds.
The Invisible Super Being you worship will torture anyone who doesn't believe as you do and you are good with this?
How do you reconcile this belief with being compassionate?
I was answering how I present it to others, I am not saying the idea of the passage is compassionate. All I can do is share what I believe in; I can not make decisions for others. What is me forcing an idea down someone's throat going to accomplish is where I am coming from.
Being "compassionate" can have different interpretations. Compassionate, meaning, I present in a sugar-coated way. Or compassionate meaning, I believe strongly in what I believe in and share that with others the best I can. It is up to them to decide. I guess the right word would be passionate; I should of used that word before, sorry about that I am passionate in what I believe in.
So–you passionately believe that I will be burned as punishment for not believing the same things that you believe.
Is that correct?
I understand what you are saying about the whispering or shoving it down your throat, great point. Also, yes it probably is confusing to you why I passionately believe in something like that.
I guess I will try to explain it like this.
If I can be a believer, or spiritual, or hold to the majik book, whatever we want to call it. If I can be this, and it motivates me to love those who may not love me, gives me meaning in life, holds me accountable to my family, and gives me the motivation to be the best person I can be, this makes the most sense to me. Believing in what I believe in motivates everything I do.
I do not see the point in life to just be happy, or make money, or whatever else can motivate someone.
What do you think?
I don't see what this has to do with you believing that I will be punished for not believing the same things that you believe.
Surely–believing that I will be punished by your invisible super being must drive you to try and persuade me to believe the same things that you believe?
This is why there are so many aggressive religionists who argue their case. If you really love me, and if you really believe that your magical super being is going to burn me in the hell for not believing the stuff you believe–surely you should be doing your best to persuade me?
Yes I should be, but I do not believe in persuading someone what I believe in the moment I meet them. I try to build relationships with them first. Telling you that I think you will burn in hell is obviously not a good conversation starter.
Unfortunately though I need to get to bed, but again thank you so much for conversing with me. You are truly knowledgeable and make many good points. You have all ready cause me to think hard, and I appreciate that. I am working on that hub that I have promised you.
You believe there is a god who will burn me in a lake of fire for not believing as you do. Does it make any difference whether you shove it down my throat or quietly whisper it to me?
You also claim to live your life by the bible.
And work on the Sabbath.
Turning the other cheek has historical significance, if you know it. Do you? It has to do with the fact that slaves were customarily slapped only on the left side of their face- backhanded. Slapping someone straight on was done only if you felt that you were equals. So, if you were slapped on the left, then your gave the right cheek. It was a terrible insult, meant to show that the slave was equal to his master (because we are all children of God- whether we acknowledge it or not.)
The compassionate part is that any one of these people could ask for forgiveness AND not get what they deserve.
Mr. K, me very confused. Why do you need to prove that someone's religion causes conflict? What's going on in your life that you 'need' to do this?
It's like you're on the hunt or sumpfin...whatsupwitdat?
Me just curious..............
My intention is really to see believers viewpoints on the idea. To see their proof, backup, or reason for arguing. What do you think?
that's good. along the way you, you might be be accused of posting such wonderful forum topics just to invite arguments. bless your heart brother.
Not that you would do such a thing of course.
You didn't answer the question either. Why is that?
I and several believers here in hubpages are praying for you Mark.
As the whole gang is praying for you Mark, JC will save you from eternity torture.lol, all over again and again. These kind of arguments are endless thing, here on Earth too.
Atheism forum carry about 2/3 topics about Religion and spiritual sided people like me more often get ignore in the process. That's OK I decided to not waste so much of my time discussing with people who mainly want to be enslaves by over focusing on ancient spirituality words of limited thinking.. The more I ignore Christianity the more it looses it power over slaving people with fear and the more free I become. Religion dose not take up most of this hub-pages forum , you'll see me more on other forums from now on. For being against anything is just joining the problem wail Christianity is shrinking and the world will be change-in itself anyways.
Sounds like a plan. Spirituality is a wholly internal subjective thing. Problems start when you tried externalise it–as these guys do.
Thank you for your feedback and involvement.
The answer is found in James Chapter 4 Pride Promotes Strife...read that in James and you will have all the answer you want. I recently did a podcast of the same thing you can go here and listen to it if you wish. <link snipped - no promotional links>
So teaching or learning has anything to do with it?
That Seems to be the case.
I first came to this forum to get a better understanding about a blind faith pastor Brother of mine. Then realize I need more practice in writing English and along with way found the bible was very funny, fuzzy and sad entertainment yet did take a few good notes from it, like many other good books.
It's often hard not to quarrel when provoked. I avoid petty quarrels as much as I can but I'm human. Fortunately those are outweighed with calm debate. I think to avoid petty quarrels, one must avoid those persons who tempted you to quarrel pettily. Once someone has overstepped the mark in my standards, I avoid them forever.
It's not worth it because generally nothing is accomplished except driving that person further from the Lord. I will argue, however, when persecution abounds or a non-believer makes a biblical assumption that is not true.
Christian Fight clubs need to frighten most members back into angry discussions in order to hide from responsibly and reality by blaming Satan..While carrying a lifetime of sins, regrets and quilt rather than just adjusting mistakes, which we all are going to make mistakes anyways and people can be treated for mental illnesses,. Why add punishment worst than the crime, it only causes more crime?
Really... argument and debates is sign of low energy in my books, it only worthy on very rare extreme causes. If people prefer to aim their core life by the ancient unknown extremes stories and get angry about it which many can not been proven, let them knock themselves out.
Actually I agree with your comments pertaining to arguing. It really is not a productive avenue to pursue now having said that based on Scripture we can not sit on the fence as believers.
You used the term believers acting holier than thou and I suspect you may be correct in some instances if however you go back and read some of your own replies I wonder if you could not also see yourself as being better than others?
The other premise you make is that believe it can't bring a nonbeliever is closer to God well having spent some time conversing with some nonbelievers who are not in the slightest interest in moving close to God all they want to do is prove you wrong.
Once again arguing isn't the best approach I concede to that however if believers do nothing regarding the innuendos, falsehoods about the Bible people will tend to believe these assertions and eventually accept them as true. You know Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not bow down to the King's Golden Idol.
I agree with most you have said, and thank you for the feedback, as far as wondering if I am acting better than others, I apologize if that is the idea you are perceiving, that is in no way what I am trying to convey. So I apologize if that is what you thought.
No apologizes needed I'm not one who needs his ego stroked. I'm just thinking we should all be on the look out for how others might perceive us.
Josh, I have found that the reverse is also true...nonbelievers argue with believers...takes at least two to have a difference of opinion. I think they are trying to convert each other.
Odd - if no one makes a claim - there is nothing to argue about. Ya think there would be any arguments without the claims of majik that you make?
No Druids here.
None here either. Don't be gullible. If my tag were 'Superman' would you think I was really Clark Kent. You jump to conclusions. The preponderance of belief is, is that there is something influencing our existence. Therefore, the burden of proof lies with those holding the minority view.
And, uh, majik like Einstein? That's the only 'majik' I talk about, or don't you bother to read? Oh, yeah...jumping to conclusions.
So...if three people believe that Charly Manson is innocent...then he should go free? What you say makes no sense in any context.
Consensus makes it so huh? No wonder your religion causes so many fights.
Iz teh erf flat?
I'd much rather talk about King Arthur. Tell me your view on that legend. I trust that it will enlighten me.
You can't explode others belief systems w/o supplying some sort of alternative. Since the whole Grail thing revolves around Arthur, and is tied into Arimathea and Glastonbury...you already know all that. Now whose earth is flat. WAKE UP, MAN! Must be tea time or something!
the forum topic is 'argue-men-ta-tive' in my o-pin-ion.
I have a gentleman at work that taunts me with his anti Christian propaganda on a daily basis. He insults my Lord so much I feel the need to defend my beliefs and my Lord. Intellectually I know he's trying to get under my skin, however, I can't keep my mouth shut. He states things like I tell my kids that Jesus is like the unicorn, a mythological character that man made up to make themselves feel better. I know the Bible states it's like placing pearls before swine, but I want him to know the one true living God and how different his life would be if he would accept Him.
It finally got so bad I had to complain to my supervisor and he stopped the attacks on Christ. It's a spiritual battle out there and we are supposed to be the light in this dark and dying world. But somedays can be very difficult when provoked to be on the defensive. I pray everyday God will give me the words to say, the word will not return void. One positive piece to this situation is the f word doesn't fly around the office as much. Praise God.
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What would happen if non-believers left the religious to their own devices.
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