It's Better for Non-Believers to be a Diest than an Atheist.

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   jah1zposted 11 years ago

   .....at least you acknowledge a Higher Power and believe that Higher Power is to Supreme to be involved with earthly matters. The Founding Fathers of the U.S. were mostly Deists. And seeing how the U.S. Constitution survived this long and held a civilization in good stead, one have to wonder how blessed the U.S. has become because of it. Not that I am a Deist but it's quite interesting the success of being a First and forging a Constitution based on that.

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      nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      A deist believes that God is dead. Get your facts straight before you speak.

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         jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Wrong!
         
         Merriam Webster Dictionary---
         
         A movement or system of thoughts advocating a system of natural religion; emphasizing mortality.
         
         Denying the interference of the Creator with the Laws of the Universe.
         
         
         
         Get your facts straight.

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            nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I was just corrected by another. Read through the thread at least. I admitted I was wrong, so put up or shut up. Prove to me why one is better than the other, then prove to me that it exists.

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               jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Then blessed is he who is corrected.
               
               And I proved why. It's better to be safe than not believing and be condemn in the afterlife.

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                  nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Prove there's an after life.
                  
                  Do it without saying we die. We all already know that death is the end of a life, prove the after part.

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                     jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Well, considering you are an Atheist and I am a Believer, we are in conflict. We wouldn't be able advance on each others considering you have shut out anything to do with God so, whatever I say would be foreign to you. I rather debate this question with Satan than you. At least he's a Believer, therefore we'd have a "premise" to move forward on.

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                        nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Why would I want to move forward in your tradition? Especially when I've already found fault with it?
                        
                        I went to bible school and was quite indoctrinated. We could have your discussion but then, it wouldn't be me you were talking to.

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                           jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           Then if you found fault with it, therefore you understand what the afterlife is. Don't drag me into your frustration according to the way you perceive the afterlife. And if you went to a Bible school and now an Atheist, then repent!
                           
                           Pray to God for understand. If none is given then be patience in your long-suffering and wait for it. If none is still not given, then be patience in your long-suffering to the end. Bless is he that endure to the end!

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                              nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              Blessed are syntax and grammar.
                              
                              I left bible school, to find an education at a real school. If I hadn't been introduced to public school, I fear I'd still be a christian.

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                                 jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 Then blessed is he who is educated.

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                                    nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    Education is a burden of it's own ilk, though I can truly say I'm free. My mind is free to wander and I fear no other way of thinking. My old pastor had my brain so confined and convinced me that the world was full of evil people. Those evil people give to charities and have been proven to be more giving than christians. Sure christians talk a good game but, they tend to ignore their own shortcomings, thinking they are free of humanity.
                                    
                                    I've never seen child abuse like that of a christian household. Telling their children that all they worthy of is hell and that they should think along certain parameters, should be considered child abuse. Too bad it's not.

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                                       jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       Your education is your choice. You made it. If it is a burden then undo it as you have undone your belief in God. It is all your choice. Free-will, as you said....remember?
                                       
                                       Just know, as I explained to Sophia, you cannot say there is no God for God gave life and Man became a living soul.
                                       
                                       And what your Pastor taught, I cannot speak to that. I was not there. If evil men give to mankind /humanity better than the Believers do, this is not a strange occurrence for God cause his Light to shine on the evil and the good.

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                                          DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                          
                                          
                                          And you know this how?
                                          
                                          And I trust you have proof of this.

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                                             nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                             I've been asking for proof all day. Where do you think I've gotten with such a request?

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                                       jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       @DoubleScorpion,
                                       
                                       I know this from reading the Bible.

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                                          DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                          Which version?
                                          
                                          The Original Text or the misinterpreted copies most use today?
                                          
                                          And that is only one source...And it even says for something to be "proven" there has to be at least two witnesses...Where is the second book (Written by God) that confirms the bible?
                                          
                                          Do you also believe what is written in the Qu'ran? That is supposedly inspired by God as well...
                                          
                                          What studies outside of the bible have you done to confirm your "knowledge"? What studies have you done concerning the bible itself? Or do you just read it and allow "God" to give you the "understanding"?

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                                             nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                             Well......... Christians have their word. Isn't  that enough?

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                                                DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                Beliefs aren't proof...No matter how firmly we believe them...Some just don't seem to understand that...

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                                                   nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                   If I could prove to christians that words were useless I would. But what of the ignorant masses they tell their stories to? How do we protect them?

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                                    jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    @Scorpion,
                                    
                                    It's called, reading the bible, living by faith and these wisdoms will be imparted onto you (through experience).
                                    
                                    Reading the Bible without having faith is nothing of itself. Spiritually is key here. And it's deep. Each man to his own journey.

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                                       DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       So let me get this straight...You read the bible with a preconceived notion called faith and then make it fit with your personal life experiences and you call that "truth" for every person?
                                       
                                       I am confused...Are we individuals or are we all robots that just haven't had the "proper" programing so that we all match...
                                       
                                       If the message of the bible is so clear...and based on faith and a "relationship" with God...and the holy spirit guides one's understanding of the bible...Why is there over 30,000 different denominations of Christianity and each one of them think the rest have it wrong and they are the only ones who have it correct?
                                       
                                       Even here on HP, I have found very few Christians who actually completely agree on everything. If they are all lead in their understanding by God, then why don't they see things exactly the same. And since they don't, which one is right and which one is wrong?

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                                       jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       No. I don't read the Bible with a preconceived notion of faith. I read the Bible to learn and understand God's words.
                                       
                                       I try to live by faith. For example.
                                       
                                       If I want to buy a $33,000 Dodge Ram truck and have no job, broke as a joke and yet, I pray to God to have this truck, what I did right is prayed, first.
                                       
                                       Now, I go about trying to get this truck rather through a job, a loan or any way that's legal to do so, for those are the confines. Your journey will be revealed what have to be done to get the truck. Now, there will be up and downs, difficulties and frustration, set-backs and hardships.
                                       
                                       That is the "experience" you go through, and it is good for the soul. Trails and errors teach you the way, just like long-sufferring. You stay steadfast in your prayers and determination. In the midst of your struggles, "a way" will prevail itself and when you realize it, that is faith that got you there. Understand?
                                       
                                       Pray, and then go about believing in it. Do it by faith. Embrace the struggle and be strengthened by it. You learn and become wiser next time around. Getting the truck will be the least rewarding. The journey, strengthened in faith, is richer.
                                       
                                       That's why I said, each man to his own journey. Now faith in things like walking on water or calming a sea like Jesus did, I cannot comprehend that; to have power over the sea and water. I don't know if Man is given that kind of access through faith.
                                       
                                       What I can add though, the worst things get after you pray and struggle with your faith, stay calm...don't waver in your faith. Re-access your situation, think things through and through. The mind have a way to correct itself and that's the spirit guiding you. Sleep on it and wake up strengthened in your faith to go at it again.
                                       
                                       One last thing. Things you ask for, it's better to be in the will of God than a personal indulgent. Praying for money, just to have a lot of money, you better off doing that on your own. Praying for a need is more suitable in my opinion. After all I shared with you, there are still Christians/Pastors better experts to explain these things than I.

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                                          DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                          I am a minister. I also hold a PHD in Biblical Studies.
                                          
                                          I ask the questions I do to see where peoples beliefs lie and if they actually understand their beliefs or just blindly follow because they are "christian".
                                          
                                          Here is the interesting thing about your story...
                                          
                                          First, Why covet a truck of that price? If a truck is "needed" (which it isn't because we can walk, ride a bike, or take a cab, etc), why not purchase a cheaper used version.
                                          
                                          Next, Finding a job or other means to purchase the truck, doesn't require prayer first. It is called getting off your butt and going to look and not be "to good" to take the job at McDonalds until something better comes along.
                                          
                                          Life isn't easy, way to many people these days seem to think life should be handed to them on a silver platter. Back in the day, people worked...they prayed to thank or ask God for the things they couldn't control, like rain for crops to grow, strength and ability to work, things along those lines.
                                          
                                          Asking God to help with things one can do for themself, is nothing more than laziness on their part and very greedy I might add. A case of trying to get something without working for it. There are very few things in this world we humans can't actually control in one form or another.
                                          
                                          If we find that our lives have ups and downs, we might want to look at ourselves and see why we are holding ourselves back. If we have the basics we need to survive, the rest is just gravy. If we are attempting to buy something we can't afford, and over extend our budget, that "trial" is of our own doing because we were being greedy and impatient.
                                          
                                          For the majority of things in our lives, No God is required...there is only one thing I can think of that God is required...For our own "spirituality" so that we can feel safe and secure in the things that scare the bejesus out of us...Like Death and the Unknown...

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                                             pennyofheavenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                             That makes sense to me. Nice post.

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                                       jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       @Scorpion,
                                       
                                       I only tried to use an example of faith more broadly. You really had me tricked into believing that you had absolutely no understanding of faith so I used broad strokes to convey a sense of narrative of how faith works.
                                       
                                       If you are a Minister then I respect your saying on Faith. Know that my Father was also a Preacher and taught me these things when I was little. Since you are of the faith, then you know Faith is:
                                       
                                       the things not seen, while believing for it to come.
                                       
                                       Now, I'm not a Preacher as my Father was, or a Minister as you are but so you know that I am not ignorant about faith.
                                       
                                       Getting a job, stop being lazy and examining your circumstances in life is all about living to the best of your ability, long-suffering and patience-waiting on the things asked for: faith....and through experience.
                                       
                                       You taught me very little, sir. Your criticism was more of your sermon, with a need to feel superiority. That's alright though......I understand where you coming from, brother. Be great.

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                                          DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                          I am not, nor was I, attempting to teach anything...I was/am simply trying to understand your logic...and based from the posts I have seen of yours (from this and other threads), I believe I understand where you are coming from.
                                          
                                          I would say you have very good faith in what you believe. (and I'll leave it at that)
                                          
                                          
                                          I didn't criticize, and if I did somehow, it was unintentional. I am not nor is anyone else any better than others, which if you read very carefully the things I write, you will see that is one of the messages I say alot. As I said in my last post to you, I ask questions or debate the opposite/opposing view of a topic to see where ones faith, opinion, beliefs actually lie or if the are just blindly following something with little to no understanding of it.

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                  nightwork4posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  what does safety have to do with it? if i don't believe in god then i don't worry or care about being safe. if i don't believe in god but play it safe, wouldn't this all-knowing god see this? wow

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      jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      My bad, my mobile phone is putting in the wrong words. In the title, I meant to spell, Deist. And in my last sentence, I meant to say...
      
      "Not that I am a Deist but it's quite interesting the success of being a Deist and forging a Constitution based on that."

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      Sophia Angeliqueposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Tell me, why is it so important for people to care about what Atheists think? I really, really don't care what religious people, agnostics, or anyone else thinks about where they came from and where they're going to. It's not something I have any interest in discussing. The moment I meet someone and they start on that topic, I begin to think of ways to say good bye as fast as I possibly can.
      
      So what does it matter if Atheists don't believe in God??? What's the big deal?

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         jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         If you don't Believe in God, that is your choice. Disregard what "man" say to you if you tell him/her you don't believe in God. For who is he or her to judge you?  They should know better ---- "Judge not, ye not be judge."
         
         Other than that, you cannot say you didn't know about God. The "soul" wouldn't allow it nor have you ignorant to the truth. For life comes from God and Man became a living soul.

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            Sophia Angeliqueposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Joh tz "Other than that, you cannot say you didn't know about God. The "soul" wouldn't allow it nor have you ignorant to the truth. For life comes from God and Man became a living soul."
            
            Aren't you being a bit of a hypocrite? Here are  you saying 'judge not least he be judged," but you're judging yourself. What on earth makes you think you're right and I'm wrong? Isn't that somewhat arrogant? I have never said, "Look, you've been told there is no God, and it's all your imagination, and you just want to believe in God because it makes you feel safe and better about life. It also makes you feel superior to those that don't believe in God, because you can believe you're special." I could have said that. I didn't.
            
            So what gives you the right to tell me that my soul wouldn't allow me to believe in God? Who are you to judge that?

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               jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I'm not judging you. If I did, point out how I judge you? To judge is to condemn, right or wrong. I'm only defending the "soul" for the soul is the truth there is a God.  Your soul knows God, for it is of God and would not have you ignorant to the truth. I'm defending your soul, Sophia, not you: the flesh. Understand this.
               
               Other than that, I have no right to judge you in the flesh. Who am I to judge you? I am a sinner too. So, be great and peace be with you, Sophia.

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                  Sophia Angeliqueposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  jahtz, you are making an assumption with no evidence that my 'soul knows God." That is religious dogma. You cannot look into my soul - whatever that is. Nor can you look into the soul of anyone else. Incidentally, I truly doubt that you can look at your own soul. How do you define soul? Where is it situated in the body?
                  
                  Jahtz, I don't know how old you are, but I'm 60, and for you to quote all this dogma (as it has been repeated to you over and over again) indicates that you are probably either a recent convert or very young. My knowledge of the bible, of Christianity, and of religion as a whole is based on 30 years solid daily experience.

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                     jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Sophia, you speak about things you do not understand. I don't have to know your soul, personally, to see that you are alive, moving about and functioning as a rational human being. Are you not?
                     
                     I only need to know that you are a Human, in the flesh. Therefore you have a soul for God breathe into the nostril of Adam and Man became a living soul. Woman came from Man therefore Woman is the mother of all living things.
                     
                     For this reason, Man should leave his parents and join to his wife and they become One. Of course Man or Woman do not have to enjoin one another for they are souls separately.

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                     jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Sophia, you speak about things you do not understand. I don't have to know your soul, personally, to see that you are alive, moving about and functioning as a rational human being. Are you not?
                     
                     I only need to know that you are a Human, in the flesh. Therefore you have a soul for God breathe into the nostril of Adam and Man became a living soul. Woman came from Man therefore Woman is the mother of all living things.
                     
                     For this reason, Man should leave his parents and join to his wife and they become One. Of course Man or Woman do not have to enjoin one another for they are souls separately.

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                        getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        And you know this irrefutably. Right?  Lest you wouldn't say it with the silly arrogance that you do.
                        
                        
                        
                        Then why don't men have vaginas?
                        
                        
                        
                        Does that include other species, and plant life, as well.  Wow, I thought women were only here to perform the other half of the reproductive function of the human species.  I have been woefully misinformed. 

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                           jah1zposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           I have no idea what you talking about.

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            nightwork4posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            we don't have a soul bud so where are you getting this stuff from. an atheist, at least myself, knows god isn't real and knows a soul is just as made up as god. wow

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   knolyourselfposted 11 years ago

   "Deism (i/ˈdiː.ɪzəm/[1][2] or /ˈdeɪ.ɪzəm/) is a religious philosophy which holds that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is the product of an intelligent creator."

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      nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Ah! I was misinformed. Thank you for clarifying that for me.

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      cheaptrickposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      +1

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   knolyourselfposted 11 years ago

   Thanks for being so active. You make me think.

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      nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It's a Saturday and it's raining. What else have I to do?

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   knolyourselfposted 11 years ago

   I'll have to take your word that is raining.

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   knolyourselfposted 11 years ago

   Believe without believing has always been my philosophy. Best of both worlds.

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   knolyourselfposted 11 years ago

   Proof is in the pudding. It is personal experience of which only the experiencee can decide whether it comprises real actual proof or not. I am the only one that saw the flying saucer. I can believe or not. But I can't prove to those of my friends who were not there.

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      nonto21posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      How can you prove it, other than saying you can? I could take your word for it but we all know what words are worth.

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   Dachapposted 11 years ago

   Read some C.S. Lewis, listen to Spiritual by Johnny Cash, and think a ton. Afterwards give christianity a REAL try. Commit yourself fully to God and pursue Christ believing that He can work in you and don't be surprised if you find Him or if He finds you. The worst thing that could happen is you waste some time. In todays technologically distracted society I'm sure you've already wasted plenty. Everyone loves a good Cash song anyway.

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