The people of Jared

The book of Ether

In the days of Limhi, twenty-four plates were discovered containing the record of an ancient civilization which started at the tower of Babel and ended in the complete destruction of a society that once remained for thousands of years.

These people knew that the Lord was angry with their rulers and pleaded with him not to confound their language. So because of their righteousness and through the lord's compassion they and their company were preserved. Thus began their long journey through the wilderness.

The journey

When they reached the borders of the sea, the lord commanded the people of Jared to build barges so that they could be lead to a promised land, which was choice above all other lands, which the lord had preserved for a rightous people.

Once in the barges, they were swept by a fierce wind for three hundred and fourty four days being tossed about in the waves of the sea until they finally reached land.

Antiquities of the Jews

There are in fact ancient accounts of the people being lead by God to their respective countries, even the building of ships.

Ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, Gave added insight on the account of the tower of Babel concerning the dispersion of the people , "After this they were dispersed abroad, on account of their languages, and went out by colonies everywhere; and each colony took possession of that land which they lighted upon and unto which God lead them. So that the whole continent was filled with them, both inland and maritime countries. There were some also who passed over the sea in ships," Antiquities of the Jews Ch. V.

the Prophecy

The choice land which the Jaredites came to was America. They were lead by the hand of God to this continent, and to the brother of Jared it was given a blessing and a curse that from this time henceforth and forever they should serve God or be swept off the earth. This is what was spoken to the brother of Jared the prophet.This promise still stands today for whoever will possess this land even the United States, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Peru, Canada, and all others abroad the Americas. Some may consider it hard to believe that this great country is impenetrable, but so was the case for the mighty nation of Jared, and we are forced to believe that the same state was in store for the people of Jerusalem who's fortified walls were penetrated by the Babylonians.

Jaredites and Olmecs

A Catholic priest named Ixtlilxochitl who wrote the history of Mexico in 1568 wrote that, after the great flood, the people built a very high tower. Their languages were confounded and they were scattered to all parts of the earth. They eventually came to Mesoamerica after having first crossed many lands and waters, living in caves and passing through great trials and tribulations. Most archaeologists and scholars date the Olmec culture between 2500 BC - 300 BC Though the Book of Ether does not give exact dates for the Jaredites, 2500 BC - 300 BC would be very close.

Both the Olmec culture and the Jaredite culture reached their zenith around the same time period (1500 BC - 600 BC). Ether chapter 10 tells us that the Jaredites built a great city with the whole face of the land covered with inhabitants. They worked in all manner of ore, fabrics, tools and weapons of war. The Olmec empire was heavily populated and covered a large part of the Gulf of Mexico area. While archaeological finds dating that far back are inconclusive as to the extent of metal use, etc.; the more discoveries that are made, the more advanced we find the Olmecs to have been.

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Comments 95 comments

allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

.This promise still stands today for whoever will possess this land even the United States, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Peru, Canada, and all others abroad the Americas.

We are not mentioned in Revelation, as far as I can see, at least. Do you feel that this is what the promise means? That since we have not been what God has wanted us to be, that America will be bought down?


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

I believe that these things happen in cycles, I am not one to say that the tsunami or an earth quake is brought on by the wrath of God. Rather he would warn us when we as a socioty are in danger of judgment.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

This is my 3rd time trying to post on here. It keeps going away on me. To sum up what I said, Do you feel God will just do something or speak to us before He does it?


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Without a doubt I believe that he will speak before he does something. Now this is not all for the ancient people, their faith and their prayers was that the gospel sholud be made known also if it were possible, that other nations should possess this land; and thus they left a blessing on this land in their prayers that whosoever should believe in this gosple in this land might have eternal life; and that it might be free to all of whosoever nation, kindred and tongue, or people that they may be.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

Ok. Thanks for answering me. My husband and I have been in a lot of converstaions lately with people who are wondering if God is about to do something here in the US with the election coming up and the bailout etc. We have strayed far away from what He wants us to be.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Possibly we as a socioty are missing the mark with abortion, gay marriage, or embryotic stemcells, but the wars and rumors of wars however, is clearly a sign of the times, and peace has been taken from the earth until the second comming of Christ.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Still I dont know if things are any worse now than they were in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

That is one of the things a friend of ours asked us. Like you said, it's hard to tell. I know that there is a huge rise of homosexuality, even in some churches. What we were talking about last night is that people keeping asking for 'tolerance' but oftentimes, it ends up being 'acceptance.' And God doesn't want us to accept anything that He doesn't. If Sodom and Gomorrah was much worse than the US right now, it musta been real bad huh?

I totally agree that there will be no more peace until He comes back. That's why all these people calling for peace is wasting their time. I don't like war, but I know it's here to stay. What do you mean about missing the mark?


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

I just mean that our government is allowing things to happen that shouldn't. Things that are clearly unedifying and spiritualy damaging to the people.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

Very true! I totally agree with that. Thanks for anwering my questions. I didn't mean to question you to death. Thanks.


In The Doghouse profile image

In The Doghouse 8 years ago from California

I love the stories of the Jaredite people in the Book of Mormon. It is another great example of what pride and disobedience can do to a whole society. The teachings that we can learn from this story are innumerable. I do believe that the conditions for prosperity in this land have been set by the Lord himself. To prosper in the land we must be obedient to these conditions.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

A lovely conversation going on here, but a few things.

To say america is not in revelation, you're correct. Neither is any other nation in specifics, however. I like what the author mentioned about things going in cycles...those who have held tot he hsitorical stance of revelation will not adhere to the "Left Behind" series [in my opinion, that series has screwed up the reputation of christians and even the christian's mindset approaching revelation and daniel as a whole].

I don't see the difference between israel and christianity in eschatology. I know some people insist it's there, but no it's not. You cannot base an entire foreign policy on the idea that jews are special. They're not anymore, judaism was replaced by Jesus Christ. As a Christian I cannot accept God merely changed His plan for a few thousand years only to change it back when he returns! The theology behind that is a joke!

The jews are done, the only way to enjoy the new covenant is to enter into the KINGDOM OF OGD, HERE AND NOW (not happening after some anti-christ dude destroys stuff and God returns three or four times in the process). Otherwise, they will not be a part of the new covenant. We know God deals with covenants, takes them seriously, and enables everyone the opportunity to take part. The reality is that many will not.

God won't prosper a specific land because of its inherent "goodness." God promises t bless His people, those people being the covenant family of Christ. That's it, nothing more and nothing less. To drag america into that is fallacious at best and in the end laughable.

I will be able to live a s Christian under Obama, McCain, or some communist dictator. the government is a man-made creation of logic during the enlightenment, not something god wrote ona golden tablet and handed to our founding fathers. Understand that what happens to America does not apply to the family of God at all. It's an earthly structure destined to fall.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Dog house,

I admit I was actually never really interested in the book of Ether until I saw so many correlations with their story in history and archaeology, But there are several precious things to learn from the book it's self.

t.keeley,

I agree that America is not in the book of revelations, I also believe that the Jews are no longer the chosen people exclusively, But I do believe that God wrote something on a Golden tablet about America, His divine hand was in the makings of our constitution to progress in the cause of freedom that man might worship him according to the dictates of their own consciences.

Yes this is a man made structure, but we are to do our best to build up his kingdom on earth, and I believe in the literal gathering of Israel, and in the restoration of the ten tribes; that Zion (The new Jerusalem) will be built on the American Continent, and Christ will reign personally on the earth, and the Earth willbe renewed and recieve it's parasidiacal glory.


LdsNana-AskMormon profile image

LdsNana-AskMormon 8 years ago from Southern California

Intruguing approach to the historical accounts, that are contained in The Book of Mormon, about the Jaredites.

If it were not for, The Book of Mormon, we would not have such an excellent account of this ancient people, and their dealings with God.

tDMg

LdsNana-AskMormon


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Thank's for the props Nana, What's tDMg?


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

This hub sounded mormon, hence why I spoke against that specific teaching of a golden tablet.

Since I don't and haven't read or believed in the book of mormon, I cannot vouch for anything within its pages. It stands to reason that any sceptical intellect will concur that America was built on ideals of the enlightenment, not on any religious book as a means to drag "God's people" to a single continent. This is even more proven in the fact that none of the founding fathers ever mentioned any such intent and the mormon sect was not established in America as an actual religion until ca. 1800, To accept that any founding father adhered to mormon ideology is fallacious. Therefore you cannot back the allegation that the constitution was written to found a nation of God's people on earth, at least not solely based on that argument alone.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

I have not ever read the Book of Mormon, as I have only gone to Baptist, Methodist and Free Will Baptist churches. We are in a Free Will Baptist church now. We don't really teach and preach much about doctrine, we just try to preach and teach the way to Heaven, through faith in Christ Jesus, etc. I don't think when we get to Heaven that there will be a little group of Baptists here, and a little group of Chruch of God there, etc. I think that it will just be one group, and that's the ones of us who are saved. But, we have had a study of Revlation on Wednesday nights for a while now. And how things that are happening conincide with things in that book and in the book of Daniel. Revelation gives us many things to look for. They don't have to happen before He comes back, but that they could. I believe like Onusonus says about the gathering of Isreal. I also believe that there will be 12,000 saved from each tribe after He appears since they are still looking for Him, after they see Him, they will then know who He really was/is. That there will be 144,000 of them saved at that time. It's hard to understand everything in the Bible, but I don't think God intends for us to know every single thing. So, I don't really dwell on the things I don't know. I just have the peace in my heart that since I am saved, He'll take care of me.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

When you say "things to look for", those things in revelation have happened in every generation since His ressurrection.

Also, on a side note, doctrine is important. If all you know about the God you're supposed to continually grow in relationship with is how He saved you, then you're at fault for niot exploring the doctrines of His being more thru the Bible. That is why theology is so important, it expresses in detail the aspects of the Lord we claim as King.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

When I say the word 'doctrine' I am talking about how Methodist differ from Baptists who differ from Chruch of God, etc etc etc. That's not nearly as important as people being saved. No matter what the name of the chruch you go to is, there is only one way to Heaven, and that's through faith in Jesus. In the end, that's the most important thing to teach. You seem sorta angry. :(


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

LOL, not angry at all, my apologies. It's been a rough week and I think it's giving me an angsty tone, that's all. I understand what you're saying, but you certainly agree that it's necessary to have a deepening understanding of theology, correct?


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

It's good to understand that yes, but I wouldn't want to spend a ton of time on it during preaching or Sunday School when there are lost there who need to be saved and need to hear how to be saved. We feel that Matthew tells us the most important thing we are here to do and is to go out and teach and preach and baptize. That, to me, says that we should be sharing how to be saved to those who aren't. Do you feel ,in Heaven, that there will be little groups of people here and there from different churches or that God loves us all euqally and we'll all be there as one group worshipping Him?


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

It is thouruoghly apparent that the founding fathers of the United States were inspired by god, It is in our constitution our pledge of alliegance, and the declaration of independence, (Ie. one nation under God, We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, In God we trust, and so forth.) but I never tried to imply that they were Mormons.

furthermore the concept of Zion is for the pure at heart and is established for those to gather in their own land of inheritance and they are gathered by the Lord who shall gather them together as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings if they will not harden their hearts.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

So you're saying your church's primary prerogative is to evangelise? I think the Bible has much to say about that. Take Paul for example, the man who wrote the second largest material in the NT. His epistles call mostly for spiritual growth and wisdom, not evangelism. The church is not here to further the gospel as much as you as an individual are.

The thing that bothered me the most about any of the baptist sects was the fact that I learned NOTHING in church. The creed was more like "we're in the club and now we're dragging more people into it." That's just plain wrong.

"Study to show yourself approved"

That phrase alone should motivate us to know what we believe before proselytising others to share in our faith. Bill Maher, notorious liberal and agnostic said that the more he meets religious people, the more he realises they don't even know what they believe. It's not just enough to "get people into the club" [that's actually God's job anyway], it's our calling to know our God. If you opt to evangelise more than grow in wisdom and knowledge, what do you expect of those to follow you? A simple message of salvation needs to be followed up with a lifetime of learning and development, or in the end who really wins?

Matthew merely states "Go into the world." That is a charge to each individual, any scholar will agree on that. The church is not charged with this as a unit, however. While I agree that the church is a whole unit and there are merely man-made sanctions in between, the reality is that some are wrong ebcause conflicting ideals cannot exist within a single, well, ideal.

While God loves us equally, he explicitly commands us to know Him first, especially before proselytising is to happen. God's will for us is OUR SANCTIFICATION (somewhere in the NT, I ought to look it up sometime). If we are to move towards Chritlikeness, there's a billion more aspects involved beyond telling people hell exists.

And what about those who forget that the epitome of the gospel is the resurrection? I've been handed many a tract that said "Jesus died for you."

GREAT! So He's dead? What good did that do?


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

You're not understanding what I'm saying. We do study but we don't emphasize the things that in the end are not going to be the hugest things in the world. Like, for example, Baptist believe once saved always saved, Free Will Baptist don't believe this. We don't push that. We may say it from time to time but we don't preach that you have to believe that to be saved. Do you understand now more of what I'm saying?

The tracts that say that He died for you, I'm guessing, is to show you how much He loves you so you'll want to find out more, and therefore, hearing/reading the Word, will decide you want to be saved. Maybe next week will be better on you. :/

When a person gets saved, it will be in their hearts to grow as Christlike as possible. They will want to read and learn and grow in Christ.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

What you're saying is important. The issue of security of salvation is a core doctrine of Christianity! These "little" disagreements define more than just its definition. Other doctrines sprout off of that one and can really shake theology to its heart. Take Catholicism versus Protestantism. There are some strong differences that started out as "small" doctrinal issues.

As for His death, while it's important, without His ressurrection it's useless. :)


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

Yes, that's all part of becoming a Christian. Believing in His resurrection. I agree. But about that tract, I wonder if that was just a line to draw you in so you'd want to learn more. Ie: His resurrection.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Whether or not it's a line to attract, look at it this way: if a life is hanging in the balance, as many Christians believe thus why they advocate tract ministry, then the entire story should be there. The reality is that most Christians don't even know about the resurrection being the saving factor as He i reigning Lord. Make sense? I hope it's clear, I'm trying my best :)


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

So you believe that people are saved without knowing about His resurrection?


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

No, they really cannot be. Since professing faith in Jesus Christ requires the expression of His reigning Lordship, then you cannot be. If you believe that you can be saved and still believe He's dead, then you're not a Christian, you're something else that probably has a title [I just don't know it].

In short, if a Shinto believer says that he/she doesn't believe god is in everything, is he really Shinto? What if he says that there's god in rocks and trees but not in corn stalks? That's a theological modification, therefore making it a Shinto CULT and not really truly shinto. Make sense?

In order to believe in christ as a redeemer He needs to be alive, otherwise you're just a modified muslim who forgot the name of their great prophet.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

I agree. I'm sorry, I was so slow to reply. I was writing a hub. I agree with you. You have to believe in the Resurrection. I'm glad we have finally agreed :)


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Yeah no problem. I think I was pretty much a shotgun trying to hit a small dot a rifle should be responsible for...


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Who would true valour see, Let him come hither; One here will constant be, Come wind, come weather There’s no discouragement Shall make him once relent His first avowed intent To be a pilgrim.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

t.keeley,

The unethical deluge of reinventing the definition of a word to bring about the defamation of particular religious existance, and cause the hearts of the willing to suffer from wrongful exploitation is an action low in character.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

I do not follow where I am low in character. I did not intend to offend, but there's a pretty strong clash of political belief here. One side claims God has an earthly kingdom in a literal sense and therefore an entire worldview is derived from it, versus an entirely spiritual realm that [while a worldview occurs] does not hold exclusivity to a certain continent or people.

While neither side is perfect or without historical blemish, I did take a small course on mormonism in school and during that class we tapped into a lot of previously held social errors, some of which may be considered racist. I can't discredit the religion for it, since ironically my religion at one point was probably even more so erroneous. The problem I had was the coverup. While my denomination has openly apologised and sought reconciliation, it seems that the mormons just covered it up.

I have the upmost respect for the sect, really I do. I respect Romney (whom my father voted for) and the standards by which you choose to live. I may disagree with it, as in this case, but I meant no hurtful accusations. Certainly that much I can promise.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

It is the implied word "cult" to which I refer. I find it interesting that when having a theological discussion with otherwise intelligent people, unitl I tell them I am a Mormon they consistantly agree with limited variation. This is unrefutable in that it has been a case study throughout my life, Why?

Perhaps it is the fear of the unknown, there are so many false rumors in circulation about it that one is lead to believe that a religion surrounded by such controversy is a falacy, but who spreads the rumors?

Ministries of various accord set up classes within their walls to falsely inform their congregations and instill on their member's impressionable minds that "Jesus is the brother of Satan", "Mormons have horns", "they believe that heaven is on the moon", "Joseph Smith took over for God", somone even told me that they tried to cover up a racial issue, the list goes on.

A little misguided zeal perhaps, maybe I'm being too sensitive, I tend to zero in on those words and it sparks the defenses. Still my wish is that we follow the guidelines of a rightous God, and accept that gift of salvation so freely given to us that so many choose to set aside for other ambitions.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Considering the class I took was taught by a mormon, it's highly unlikely it was set up to instill false rumors. While I used the word cult in a comment, you took it out of context and assumed I implied it to mormonism. Every time I used the word mormonism, however, I directly used the adjective "sect." I consider that vastly different.

Smith didn't take over God. I'm not certain I ever heard any of those crazy rumors. The racial issue is a historical fact, regardless of what is taught now. It's a fact that most religions carry with them, and most have admitted to. It's a covenient [or inconvenient, sorry Al Gore] truth to deny that anything ever happened. We can leave that to other religions, in christianity it's best to atone for our sins and go about outside the realm of denial. We still are dealing with that whole priest scandal in the catholic church.

When I commented on this hub it wasn't to attack mormonism. When reading what was being said here, I saw an alternative to my views, which would have been fresh and appealing to discuss if I hadn't already been down this road myself 30-40 times in the last few years with others of like background. I'm merely offering a solely biblical approach to eschatology, one that isn't influenced by the Left ehind books (your's isn't, either) or by outside literature such as book of Mormon. Whether you like it or not, Mormons are the only group that adhere to that manifesto. That would make you a dislocated group off of evangelical Christianity (I could go into the many definitions, but I'll spare the time). his doesn't make mormonism a cult, at least not in everyone's terms, albeit it's been said before. Of course, so has every other denomination of Christianity at some point, so we're in good company :)


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Thankyou for clarifying your intentions, Pleease feel free to express yourself on this hub, I don't mind a little healthy debate And I apologize for making that comment.

So tell me why do you trhink that the church tried to cover up the priesthood ban? That is what you are talking about right? when blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood until 1978? Because there is an official declaration printed in the back of every book of Docterin and Covenants which is published to this day. I know this because I'm looking at it right now.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

I don't think that this has anything to do with this part of the conversation, but this is just my feelings on the whole religion thing. If you tell me you are a Christian and you became that through faith in Jesus Christ, who am I to tell you you're not? I have said before that I don't feel there will be a certain denomination here and another one there when we get to Heaven. I feel we will all be one. Also, I have see Onusonus talk and act here on hubpages. He has consistantly been what I feel a Christian should be. His actions are with kindness and caring with a ton of knowledge. I have never asked him, but I don't feel he disrespects me because I'm Free Will Baptist and I don't him because he is Mormon. To me, the whole thing about being a Christian is living a Christlike life and growing in Him to become more Christlike everyday. But, again, that's just my opinion.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Lady you blow me away! can you feel the love?!


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

I can feel it!!!! There's ALWAYS love when Jesus is at the center of things! Keep up the good work!


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Racism was a part of life, whether we like it or not. I'm neither mormon nor catholic, I'm reformed presbyterian. While I'm sure we have our racist history, I know little of it. Catholicism (in my opinion) has done more harm than good in the last 500 years. This includes pedophiles in bishop positions. While racism is not taught anymore, it was some point along the line. Let's face it, europeans were convicted by their conscience (highly delusional at best) that blacks were satanic and subordinate beings. Unfortauntely that hasn't been eradicated yet, at least not totally. I mean, we irish took our fair beating of crap from Americans and Englishmen for hundreds of years, much less the fact that we lack the same affirmative action that blacks have achieved.

I wasn't trying to make mormons sound evil, don't get me wrong. If you want my honest opinion, I have a hard time finding protestants with the same moral fibre and zeal for God. Seriously, the only issue I was taking up is the people of God in America deal. I totally disagree with that much, not necessarily mormonism. I feel the weakest link to mormonism is that doctrine, that's all. orry if things got skewed in the process. My conversation with Allshookup was not even remotely related to mormonism at all, I hope it didn't seem that way.


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

asu - " I have only gone to Baptist, Methodist and Free Will Baptist churches."

I bet the Methodists had the best music, Samuel Wesley and Samuel Sebastian Wesley wrote the music that carried Methodism round the world. Never assume that it's all about the word ;)


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

It's alright if you don't believe everything that I believe, I'm sure that we have more in common about our opinions concerning God than one would think, and the prophecy of a gathering in America is what I believe to be and end of days doctrine like Armegeddon. But for our daily lives, Zion is the pure in heart and we should seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion, and the nations of the earth will honor her and will say surely Zion is the city of our God, and it cannot fall neither be moved out of her place, for God is there, and the hand of the Lord is there. And he has sworn by the power of his might to be her salvation and her tower, therefore let Zion rejoice while all the wicked shall mourn.


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

Onosonus - It doesn't worry me to much when people try to interpret biblical prophesy as applying to our times. I don't believe in prophesy, but I don't mind if others do, as a hobby. Because that's what it most resembles - a game, to prove that this or that 9-horned beast 'really' represents Israel. Our friend Prophesy Teacher is a master at this game.

But it does worry me when you say things like {{we should seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion, and the nations of the earth will honor her and will say surely Zion is the city of our God, and it cannot fall neither be moved out of her place, for God is there, and the hand of the Lord is there. And he has sworn by the power of his might to be her salvation and her tower, therefore let Zion rejoice while all the wicked shall mourn.}}

Because (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to be advocating military campaigns to establish your particular view of a preferred world order, one which involves a great deal of 'mourning' by the 'wicked'.Don't you think we have troubles enough without working for more?


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

That's pretty funny Paraglider! I believe that when people think of phrases like "Army of God" they envision extreemest groups waging war on others, but it just makes me think of Missionaries spreading the word. You might assume that the war in heaven was a fierce battle, but I see it as a war of words, a conflict of oppinions, an open discussion, and an ultimate decision reached. It is most definately not some kind of David Corresh compound armed to the teeth, but rather somthing that makes the world wonder at it's sheer goodness and love.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

Onusonus, When I hear or see the words "Army of God" it never occurs to me to think of guns and bombs. It makes me think of people sharing the Word of God. You know......Onward Christian Soldiers....... I think there are phrases used in the world that those who are not saved yet can't understand, so they take them as bad and negative when they are actually the opposite.

Paraglider, Actually no, the only music they had was me playing the piano at the Methodist church. They became too liberal, so we left. Free Will Baptists seem to have the best music. We have a piano, organ, drums, guitar, flute and tambarine. We get down with God's music! LOL

Onusonus, I have been trying to post on VP's hub we always post on for the last 2 and a half days and it won't take my posts. I emailed him, but I don't think he has it set up for him to get email from hubbers. I keep trying, but I can't post on there. Any advice?


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

"Get down with God's music" ...

lol


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

Yet you won't deny that there are many people of many faiths who seek to impose their faith through military dominance? Such is the history of the world.

Why is it that proponents of reason don't feel the need to use the imagery of war - banners, marching, the enemy's ranks - all this ancient stuff. It seems to be the preserve of the ultra religious. Any theories on why this might be so?


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Paraglider, I won't be using proponents of war in my imagery anytime soon. Probably because I feel it's God's job to change people's hearts. I've only ever heard the banner song "Onward Christian Soldiers" in churches that advocate such forceful doctrine as 'absolute free will'. I'm not saying they don't have good reasoning behind it, but I disagree with it primarily because I feel the Bible strongly opposes that type of belief. I hope that made as much sense as I attempted to make. Jerry G2 wrote a hub on the Christian doctrine of grace, aka predestination. It's worth a look even if it will rub you the wrong way ;)

If I remember correctly you're an agnostic, so the whole reasoning will probably be confusing at best. I hope it's not, however :)


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

Hi tkeeley - I prefer to call myself a rationalist, rather than agnostic or atheist. But I'm also 55 years old and didn't reach this position without extensive thought, reading, discussion and even prayer (which didn't work!) For a few months, long ago, I even believed I was 'saved' and would have called my self a non-denominational Christian. Since then, I have dispensed with belief and feel none the worse for it ;)


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

You're from the UK so I'm sure you're familiar with the Presbyterian denomination, something I didn't take into consideration when writing this comment beforehand :) You certainly are not a dunce on the matter, and your choice is yours to make. Wow, I jsut advocated you had a will.... :P Someone hang me for it!

Would you support the sect of physics that supposedly advocate everything happens in synchronious harmony and thus no one truly is free? It's fascinating, actually ;)


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

I was brought up Presbyterian (Church of Scotland). But Scottish Presbyterianism doesn't hold with Calvin's predestination theory. There's an old Scottish church, the Free Church, mainly in parts of the Western Isles, that is very austere and still Calvinist.

Re Q 2, no :)


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Figures (re re Q2). The only people I know who seem to like that are us crazy calvinists. I find it odd scottish pres's aren't still adhering to calvin...since Knox was a pretty big dude back in the day. Bet you have an awesome accent though. I would be accused of being fake if I used mine.... >:/


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Paraglider,

There was a wise man who built his house on a rock, and though he was the rightous man, and not like the foolish man who built his house in the sand, the storms befell him just as they fell on the foolish man. The rains fell, the floods rose up, and the wind beat against him, but crucially, he stayed.

I truely wish that you would reconsider your position about God. I believe that he listens to each of us as though you were the only person who has ever existed, he makes the sun to shine on both the rightous and the wicked, just as the rain falls on both as well. 

All shook up,

I don't know what to do aboout your problem with VP's website, have you tried to go to any of his others? or try to hit the spell check.

t.keeley

synchronious harmony, sounds like another Steven Hawking theory, he gets my blood boiling!


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

Onusonus - To have a ready reference available when I get into such discussions, I wrote two hubs describing my position, so that I wouldn't have to keep repeating myself. The first is here http://hubpages.com/hub/Jesus-God-Santa and it concludes in a link to the second. You are very welcome to view them.

By the way, it is pretty safe to assume that I already know most of the commoner biblical quotations.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

So the devil leads them away into carnal security saying all is well, and thus the devil cheats their souls


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

Onosonus - am I to understand from that comment that it is your honest opinion that the devil, whom you believe in but I do not, has taken possession of my 'soul'?


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

To say that would imply that you had no control over the matter. But the Devil is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God, He strives to lead men and women from the work of God, thereby decieving the world into such beliefs as nonexistance, but he does exist. I would never condemn other people to hell. I believe that you will be given a chance after death for redemption, but because of your unbelief in this life there will be no exhaltation but some lesser glory.


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

OK. I've taken you to the point where only politeness (which I respect) prevents you from describing my fate. You belive that you will inherit 'glory' and I won't. You believe that hell and the devil are real, but I don't. Presumably you are more deserving of 'glory' than I am. No, wait, you don't believe in deeds, but in faith, correct? That's convenient for you :)


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

Paraglider, You bought up Santa Clause etc, we didn't teach our son Santa Clause is real or the Easter Bunny etc. We told him the truth up front. And he absolutely LOVES Christmas. Always has.He wants to put the decorations up in October lol. He looks forward to that all year long just like kids who were told Santa was real does. The difference is that on our Christmas tree, although we decorate it with normal Christmas things, we have Happy Birthday Jesus banner that it on it. It's always been there since that is the reason for the season. At midnight on Christmas Eve, we read the Christmas story from the Bible then have a prayer thanking God for all of His gifts, then we open our gifts. The fact that our son has always known the truth has never taken anything away from it, in fact, we feel it's added more to it to know the truth. He thanks God for what he has because he knows that every single thing we have comes from God. Same with the Easter Bunny and tooth fairy. He knows that if it weren't for Easter, we couldn't go to Heaven and what it means. But, that's just my experience. I'm glad we did it this way. He will be 12 in November. I asked him earlier this year if he wished we had not told him the truth up front, he said no, he was glad he knew. So, I'm glad too.


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

Allshookup - I have no problems with any of that. My parents were christians and gave me the same oppotunities that they had had to believe or not believe. I went to Sunday school and to church. And I'm of an age that made no reference in school (in the 1950's) to any religion except christianity. We had daily prayers, weekly services, etc, etc. My 2 brothers believed. I didn't. We are all individuals pursuing our own path through life. When I was about 17 I looked into all of this very seriously. Your son may do the same. He's still young.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

Yes he is and I know that when the teenage years hit, that he will have a lot things to discover for himself. I guess my point is that my husband and I want to know in our hearts we did everything for him to give him the Biblical background that he needs. Then it will be up to him to take that and do with it what he will. But, I keep a verse out of Proverbs in my heart when dealing with that. Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it. So, that's the comfort we take from raising him in a God-loving home. That's all we as parents can do.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Paraglider, Listen to me, I believe that there are there are those who recieved the testimony of Jesus Christ and believed in his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, that by keeping the commandments they may be washed and cleansed from their sins and recieve the holy spirit. And who over come by faith, and are sealed by the holy spirit of promise, which the father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all.

then there are those who died without law; and are they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the son visited and preached the gospel so that they may be judged according to men in the flesh who did not recieve the testimony of Jesus in the flesh but afterwards recieved it. These are honorable men of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men, so they recieve bodies terrestial and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

lastly there are those who recieved niether the gosple of Christ or his testimony, who do not deny the holy spirit, who are thrust down to helland will not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurection, until the the Lord even Christ the lamb, shall have finished his work. and they are bodies telestial, who recieve the administration of angels, who are appointed to administer for them; and they will be heirs of salvation.


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

OK, you start 'listen to me' then go on to expound what is your personal credo. Not unique to yourself of course, but most definitely not shared by the whole body of Christianity. Your 'version', though you may call it the word of God, is exclusive of maybe 75% of Christians. (Probably more, in fact).

Does it not trouble you to hold beliefs which, if true, condemn so many of your fellow creatures?

And would it trouble you more, or less, if one day, looking at yourself, you found you were no longer certain that you were one of the chosen?

As you know, I try to do without belief as I find it narrows the imagination. But I am interested enough to wonder why some christians appear inclusive and some exclusive. You can't all be right, you know ;)


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

Paraglider, I know you didn't address this to me, but I have a question about something you said. You used the word 'chosen.' Is that what you feel about Christians? They those who are saved are 'chosen' and that no one has a choice if you can be saved or not, that it's a decision made for you by someone else?


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

Paraglider has some valid points. We can't all be right. If it's all about personal choice, then where does the sovereignty of God come in? The Bible doesn't allow for the will of man to trump the will of God. God isn't just a foreknower, he's a predestinator. [that sounds too much like terminator, lol].

While it irks me on some days, Para, I will admit that it does bother me that Christianity condemns those not a part of the family of God. It's my human side speaking as always, but yes, that thought is troublesome. I do understand that many of those who are 'condemned' do so themselves, aka rejecting the message of salvation, etc. You're familiar all to well with the Christian message, so no need for me to continiue useless explanation.

Allshookup is a free will baptist. They believe [correct me if I'm wrong, ASU] that man is merely a product of God's foreknowledge and man dictates his entire path while God sort of just knows what we'll do. It's called...well, as far as I am aware, Arminianism, but most baptist refuse to associate with that theology even though they closely align. That's the reason I left the church I attended before joining Presbyterianism, because the church would not take a stand on the issues it so blatantly tossed about from the pulpit.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

First I would say that there are many who are called by God but few are chosen, and why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of the world and aspire to the honors of men that they do not learn this one lesson. That the rights of priesthood are insepperably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controled nor handled only upon the powers of rightousness. That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion upon the souls of men in unrightousness, the heavens withdraw themselves; the spirit of te lord is grieved, and when it is withdrawn, amen to the priesthood of that man.

Now condemnation is not the theme of my last staement but rather the hope for a place given even to the unbelieving, even those who are without God are given hope. I believe firmly in second chances, even after death.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 8 years ago from The South, United States

Let me say first that I don't agree with everything any denomination believes. I have formed my beliefs from much study and prayer.

Free Will Baptists believe that we have that choice to choose whether we are saved or not. Also that you can commit apostcy, but once you do that, you will not have another choice to be saved. You will go to hell if you do that. They believe that God doesn't control us, but yes, He does know before time the decisions we will make. They don't sprinkle, they dunk. They are pre-trib. They wash the feet of other brothers and sisters during communion services as a symbol of humilty, following the example of Christ doing this for the disciples. Believe strongly in witnessing, that that is our primary job once we are saved. This comes from Matthew and the Great Commission. They believe that once the Ratpure happens, if you have heard/read the message of Christ, you will not have another chance to be saved, but that people who have not heard will have the 7 years of the tribulation to make that decision. That there will be 144,000 saved from the 12 tribes when the rapture happens as the children of Isreal realize who He really is/was. They don't preach a lot of their doctorines, but rather preach straight from the Bible, much of the time concerning the message of salvation. I think because they don't teach doctorine so much is why they are often asked what their exact beliefs are when it comes to doctrine. They don't feel the message of Christ and the Bibe is doctrine, but that it's the simple truth. To them, they feel the doctrine part is what I said about washing feet and communion service, and things like that. They don't feel they will be the only ones in Heaven. That people from all churches and walks of life will be there if and only if they accept Christ as Savior or unless they are innocent (safe) such as babies, small children and those with mental disablities. (People who cannot understand how to be saved.) They believe that you MUST believe that Christ was born of a virgin, died and was resurrected by God the Father. They believe the only way to pray is through Jesus who is the Mediator between God and man. They are more conservative than Southern Baptists or Missionary Baptists. They also believe that once you are saved, your walk and talk will follow Christs. That you wont be doing the things that those things you did that were sinful before you are saved unless you are convited by the Holy Spirist to repent and do you best to not do that again. They believe that everyday you should strive to be more Christlike. They are active in their communities and many ways. They don't sit back and stay quiet when they feel things are going wrong in the church or the community or country. They are outspoken and active in their neighborhoods. They also send out many missionaries to home and foreign countries. They support a great number of missionary churches.

Again, I don't agree with all of what they believe. I've been a member of Free Will Baptist, Southern Baptist and Methodist churches. But I've never been to one I agree with 100%.


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

I can't answer everyone's points, because it's late and I have an early morning flight to Abu Dhabi. But, ASU - I use the word 'chosen' only because it is very much part of the 'litany'. You must know that the old testament notion of the Jews being god's chosen people was transformed by christians to mean what you mean by 'saved'.

tkeeley - in Scotland, predestination was kicked into touch in the 18th century, helped on its way by Robt Burns. Allow me three days 'grace' to write the hub about this!

Onusonus - I would find it easier to discuss your points if you could ease back on the sepulchral tones. You tend to talk like the rock of ages. 'The souls of men in unrighteousness' is hardly going to cut much ice with a rationalist like me, is it?


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

T.keeley nice picture, who's the statue of?

Paraglider,

Perhaps my words are worth reflecting on, somone once said to let the dews of heaven settle on your soul.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

The statue is thomas Jefferson, one of my heroes. The picture was taken in Williamsburg, down the street from William and Mary.


sharonsarah profile image

sharonsarah 8 years ago

Nice hub. Wow nice images.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

thnks!


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 8 years ago from washington Author

Whats this?... You don't like my melancholy mannerisms?... My cryptic cavalcade distresses you?... You want me to desist?... Quoth the Raven; Nevermore! He...He...He..!


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 5 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

Hey, just reading back in time, that was a pretty good conversation we had here :)


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

Hey dude. Thanks for saying hi.


passingtheword 5 years ago

why is there no archaeological prof of anything the book of Mormon claims? no coins no armor no writings no bones no nothing. you can prove the bible but can't prove anything that the Book of mormon claims.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

You can not prove a single miracle in the Bible with archaeology. And when people try to do such there will always be others who will be there to deconstruct your assertions and prove them false.

I was not aware that one has to have hard core proof in order for their religion to be true, we call that growing by faith. But even if I were to show you archaeological evidence of such things you still wouldn't believe it, so what's the point? I've seen plenty of Archaeological evidence and it never contradicts the assertions made in the Book of Mormon.


passingtheword 5 years ago

man you always put down the Bible. there is proof about the miracles in the bible. have you heard of pharaoh Ahmose and what he wrote in his stella? he talk about a great storm a people called the hyksos that were there slaves. that served one God. and on the stella it talks about the dividing of the sea.

God wants us to live by faith but man look at what is right in front of you.

the wars that are talked about in the bible. they found remnet of them. the civilizations that are talked about in the bible, they found currency or written documents. there is not evidence that the Lamanites or the Nephites ever excised. The lds church has not even tried to find anything. why? because they know that they wont find anything.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

Really. So you think that I am putting down the bible because there is no archaeological evidence of miracles? That's kind of a silly thing to say.

you are wrong, people in my church have found archaeological evidence and we are completely open to the discovery of new artifacts unlike the rest of the Christian world. the dead sea scrolls for example, four Brigham Young University (BYU) professors served as editors of volumes in the official publication series, Discoveries in the Judean Wilderness. Additionally, BYU funded and participated in various collaborative efforts to preserve, record, and interpret the significance of the scrolls.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's restored church and I for one would think that things such as tithing money and the like should be used to feed the hungry rather than digging around in the sand looking for what God has already revealed to us.


passingtheword 5 years ago

what have they found to prove that the Nephites ever existed? they are building multi million dollar temples why can't they dig? you know why wont dig? because they know they wont find anything.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

You don't seem to understand the concept of faith. Allow me to assist you; Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11:1; Alma 32:21), and must be centered in Jesus Christ in order to produce salvation. To have faith is to have confidence in something or someone. The Lord has revealed himself and his perfect character, possessing in their fulness all the attributes of love, knowledge, justice, mercy, unchangeableness, power, and every other needful thing, so as to enable the mind of man to place confidence in him without reservation. Faith is kindled by hearing the testimony of those who have faith (Rom. 10:14–17). Miracles do not produce faith, but strong faith is developed by obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ; in other words, faith comes by righteousness, although miracles often confirm one’s faith.

Faith is a principle of action and of power, and by it one can command the elements and/or heal the sick, or influence any number of circumstances when occasion warrants (Jacob 4:4–7). Even more important, by faith one obtains a remission of sins and eventually can stand in the presence of God.

All true faith must be based upon correct knowledge or it cannot produce the desired results. Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel and is more than belief, since true faith always moves its possessor to some kind of physical and mental action; it carries an assurance of the fulfillment of the things hoped for. A lack of faith leads one to despair, which comes because of iniquity.

Although faith is a gift, it must be cultured and sought after until it grows from a tiny seed to a great tree. The effects of true faith in Jesus Christ include an actual knowledge that the course of life one is pursuing is acceptable to the Lord (see Heb. 11:4); a reception of the blessings of the Lord that are available to man in this life; and an assurance of personal salvation in the world to come. These things involve individual and personal testimony, guidance, revelation, and spiritual knowledge. Where there is true faith there are miracles, visions, dreams, healings, and all the gifts of God that he gives to his saints. Jesus pointed out some obstacles to faith in John 5:44 and 12:39–42 (cf. James 1:6–8).


passingtheword 5 years ago

God also says don't be ignorant search the scriptures search for the truth.Just because you have faith doesn't mean you have to be ignorant. there is faith and dumb faith. Dumb faith are those that don't seek don't know what they believe. they just take in what Joe shmoe tells them. like the theory of evolution people have faith in that. there is no scientific proof but people have faith in that. the lds faith does not line up with the Word of God the bible. there is proof of a Jerusalem there is proof of the kings and pharaohs and emperors there is proof of writing about Jesus.

There is no proof of the things writing in the book of mormon because they never happen. except what was plagiarized from the bible.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

Along with such proofs comes the proof of ancient countries such as Greece. There is proof of wars and lands which are mentioned in the fables of people who subscribed to such mythology as Zeus, Hera, Hercules, and other myths. However there is no proof that Demigods such as Achilles walked the Earth and fought epic battles at Troy, yet we know this city existed. Using your logic one would then have to assume that Greek mythology is true as well because the places did in fact exist.

But how can you compare biblical archaeology to Book of Mormon Archaeology when the Meso-American culture can barely account for it's own history? Are you aware that there are pyramids which have been found off the coast of Cuba? What do we know about this culture which has been completely submerged, and how could we possibly prove beyond doubt that this is not a place which was mentioned in the Book of Mormon? The answer is that there are hundreds of cities in Central and South America which exist and no one can give a definitive answer as to exactly who it was that built these civilizations. Archaeology is a science which can be explained as looking at a ten thousand piece puzzle and only having a few pieces to give you a clue as to what the actual picture is.

As for Archaeology in Israel, it is a country which was never lost and we can find Jerusalem right where we left it. It wouldn't be as simple looking for Zerehemla when we have no map, no definitive language to tell us the name of the city, and there is that possibility that the city could be under water.

If I were a dumb ignorant person, as you have so arrogantly asserted, I probably would have called it quits on my religion after the first few kids in School tried to dispel my beliefs instead of researching, studying, and diligently praying for truth, guidance, and enlightenment from the Lord.


passingtheword 5 years ago

Didn't want to post my last comment? I am sure you had the same question. Why don't they dig if they say they know where historical battles (according the the B of M) took place. Why?, because they know they wont find anything. i am sure you wont post this but just think about it.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

I'll say it again, who says they know where these battles took place? I would like for you to show me who says they know, perhaps you could direct me to an LDS websight that shows exactly where you are talking about. You say they know so you tell me where they say it is.

Secondly I'll say again, the church is not an archaeological society it is a Church, they use their resources to help the needy, maintain chapels, and build temples, not for digging in the dirt and reenacting battle scenes.


passingtheword 5 years ago

like i said before they have money to build million dollar temples but they can't dig.

For a culture to survive for a 1000 years and said to have tens of thousands of people that have written record and currency not to leave a trace is preposterous

The cultures that you speak of have documentary trails to show that they excited. The only documentation that you have is the book of morman that was written by Joseph smith.

You know we can find documentation of the bible (dead sea scroll) we can find nothing for the book of Mormon.

The Hill Cumorah, why has not the lds church found any evidence, any proof of the nephits.

i want to ask you. what do you see in the Bible that has been corrupted?


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

First let me just say that no quantity of archaeological evidence will ever suffice to prove beyond reasonable doubt that either the Bible or The Book of Mormon is true or false. Evidence is interesting and has it uses, but only as a means of better understanding the book, not of proving it to atheists and wayward saints.

If Joseph Smith made up the book from local knowledge, the book's claims should best fit the knowledge and beliefs of the 1820s and look increasingly implausible as time goes by. The History line should evince an opposite trend, climbing from its 1829 low point as items are confirmed with increased scholarship. Because of their clear differences, an evaluation of trends in scholarship ought to reveal which hypothesis better explains the data.

A major turning point in Book of Mormon studies came with the realization that early Mormons, including the Prophet Joseph Smith, himself, had misunderstood salient facts of geography, history, and culture embedded in its narrative. This insight has shifted the whole debate in recent years. The book describes a small place. An argument against the idea that Book of Mormon lands encompassed all of North and South America was provided by Joseph Smith. In 1842 he received a copy of the recent best seller by John Lloyd Stephens, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan, the first popular English book to describe and illustrate Maya ruins.

This book amazed the English-speaking world with evidence of an advanced civilization that no one imagined existed--no one, that is, except Mormons. The Prophet was thrilled, and excerpts from the book were reprinted in the Times and Seasons with his unsigned commentary.

Joseph Smith believed Maya archaeology vindicated The Book of Mormon. His placement of Zarahemla in eastern Guatemala implied that the Land Southward described in The Book of Mormon was north of Darien, as Panama was then called; thus his commentary presupposed a smallish geography that excluded South America. This Book of Mormon geography contradicts what Joseph at first believed about the book, and it fits a corner of the Americas he did not know. Therefore, he could not have derived the book's geography from personal experience nor have made it up. It necessarily follows that he dictated a book with complexities beyond his own comprehension.

Archaeology and geography support The Book of Mormon to the same degree, and for the same reasons, that they support the Bible. Both books present the same challenges for empirical confirmation, and both are in good shape. Many things have been verified for each, but many have not. Critical arguments specialize in listing things mentioned in The Book of Mormon that archaeology has not found.

The hypothesis of human authorship of The Book of Mormon demands that truth claims in the book be judged by what was believed, known, or knowable in Joseph's backyard in the 1820s. The book's description of ancient peoples differs greatly from the racist notions of rude savages held by 19th-century Americans. The book's claim of city societies was laughable at the time, but no one is laughing now. Early saints thought the discovery of cities vindicated the text. Scholars have since learned that many of the cities that captured Mormon imagination do not date to the right time period, but others do. The techniques for dating these places only became generally available in the 1960s. To find real rather than imagined correspondences, we have to be in the right place and time. In our analysis we follow Joseph Smith in thinking that Book of Mormon lands were located in Central America, so that's where we will look for physical evidence.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

So lets start here:

1. Metal Records in Stone Boxes

The first archaeological claims related to the Book of Mormon concern the facts of September 22, 1827: the actuality of metal plates preserved in a stone box. This used to be considered a monstrous tale, but concealing metal records in stone boxes is now a documented Old World practice. Stone offering boxes have also been discovered in Mesoamerica, but so far the golden plates are still at large--as we would expect them to be.

2. Ancient Writing

Another fact obvious that September day was that some ancient Americans were literate, a ludicrous claim for anyone in upstate New York to make in 1827. We now know of at least six Mesoamerican writing systems that predate the Christian era. This should count for something, but it is not enough for dedicated skeptics. They demand to see reformed Egyptian, preferably on gold pages, and to find traces of the Hebrew language. There are leads on both, but nothing conclusive yet. New scripts are still being discovered, and many texts remain undeciphered. In Guatemala City a scholar presented evidence, then just a few hours' old, that Maya writing dates back to 400 BC instead of AD 300. The origins of Mesoamerican writing is a topic that is just taking off, so we can expect new scientific revelations in the coming year. This example of an early script was recovered 57 years ago and qualifies as America's earliest writing sample, but so far nothing much has been made of it, and most scholars have forgotten that it exists.

3. The Arts of War

The golden plates ended up in New York because the Nephites were exterminated in a cataclysmic battle. The Book of Mormon account brims with warfare and nasty people. Until 20 years ago the book's claims on this matter were ridiculed. Now that Maya writing can be read, warfare appears to have been a Mesoamerican pastime.

The information on warfare in the Book of Mormon is particularly rich and provides ample opportunity to check Joseph Smith's luck in getting the details right. The warfare described in the book differs from what Joseph could have known or imagined. In the book, one reads of fortified cities with moats, walls, and palisades. Mesoamerican cities dating to Nephite times have been found with all these features.

The Book of Mormon mentions bows and arrows, swords, slings, scimitars, clubs, spears, shields, breast plates, helmets, and cotton armor, all items documented for Mesoamerica. Aztec swords were of wood, sometimes edged with stone knives. There are indications of wooden swords in the Book of Mormon--how else could swords become stained with blood? Wooden swords edged with sharp stones could sever heads and limbs and were lethal. The practice of taking detached arms as battle trophies, as in the story of Ammon, is also documented for Mesoamerica.

Another precise correspondence is the practice of fleeing to the summits of pyramids as places of last defense, and consequently, of eventual surrender. Conquered cities were depicted in Mesoamerica by symbols for broken towers or burning pyramids. Mormon records this practice. Other practices of his day were human sacrifice and cannibalism, vile behaviors well attested for Mesoamerica.

The final battle at Cumorah involved staggering numbers of troops, and of Nephite battle units of 10,000. Aztec documents describe armies of over 200,000 divided into major divisions of 8,000 warriors plus 4,000 retainers each. One battle involved 700,000 warriors on one side. The Aztec ciphers appear to be propagandistic exaggeration; we do not know whether this applies to Book of Mormon numbers or not. In summary, the practices and instruments of war described in The Book of Mormon display multiple and precise correspondences with Mesoamerican practices, and in ways unimaginable to 19th-century Yankees.

4. Cities, Temples, Towers, and Palaces

Mesoamerica is a land of decomposing cities, with their pyramids or towers, temples, and palaces--all items mentioned in the Book of Mormon but foreign to the gossip along the Erie Canal in Joseph Smith's day. Cities show up in all the right places and for the predicted times.

5. Cement Houses and Cities

One of the more unusual and specific claims in the Book of Mormon is that houses and cities of cement were built by 49 BC in the Land Northward, a claim considered ridiculous in 1830. As it turns out, it receives remarkable confirmation at Teotihuacan, the largest pre-Columbian city ever built in the Americas. Teotihuacan is still covered with ancient cement that has lasted 1500 years.

6. Kings and their Monuments

Book of Mormon peoples had kings who ruled cities and territories. American prejudices against native tribes in Joseph Smith's day had no room for kings, or their tyrannies; these were crazy claims. The last Jaredite king, Coriantumr, carved his history on a stone about 400 BC, an event in line with Mesoamerican practices at that time. A particular gem in the book is that King Benjamin "labored" with his "own hands," an outrageous thing for Joseph Smith to have claimed for a king. It was not until the 1960s that anthropology caught up to the idea of working kings and validated it among world cultures.

Even more specific, consider Riplakish, the 10th Jaredite king, an oppressive tyrant who forced slaves to construct buildings and produce fancy goods. Among the items he commissioned about 1200 BC was "an exceedingly beautiful throne." The earliest civilization in Mesoamerica is known for its elaborate stone thrones. How did Joseph Smith get this detail right?

7. Metaphors and the Mesoamerican World

Not all evidence concerns material goods. A striking correspondence is a drawing from the Dresden Codex, one of four surviving pre-Columbian Maya books. This scene shows a sacrificial victim with a tree growing from his heart, a literal portrayal of the metaphor preached in Alma, chapter 32. The Book of Mormon's metaphors make sense in the Mesoamerican world. And, I would add, they make different sense than we usually attribute to them.

8. Time-keeping and Prophesying

A correspondence that has always impressed me involves prophecies in 400 year blocks. The Maya were obsessed with time, and they carved precise dates on their stone monuments that began with the count of 400 years, an interval called a baktun. Each baktun was made up of 20 katuns, an extremely important 20-year interval. If you will permit us some liberties with the text, Samuel the Lamanite warned the Nephites that one baktun "shall not pass away before . . . they [would] be smitten." Nephi and Alma uttered the same baktun prophecy, and Moroni recorded its fulfillment. Moroni bids us farewell just after the first katun of this final baktun, or 420 years since the "sign was given of the coming of Christ." What are the chances of Joseph Smith guessing correctly the vigesimal system of time-keeping and prophesying among the Maya and their neighbors?

The list of unusual items corresponding to Book of Mormon claims could be extended, as we shall show in a few minutes. The LDS tendency to get absorbed in small details has been characterized as the fallacy of misplaced concreteness, a tactic for distracting attention from large problems by engaging critics with endless, irrelevant details, much as a mosquito swarm distracts from the rhinoceros in the kitchen. Let's take up the challenge to consider big issues, namely, geography and cycles of civilization and population.

9. Old World Geography

Book of Mormon geography presents a serious challenge because the only city location known with certitude is Old World Jerusalem, and this does not help us with locations in the Promised Land. It is marvelous, however, for the Old World portion of the narrative. As Kent Brown and others have shown, the geography of the Arabian Peninsula described in 1 Nephi is precise down to place-names. The remarkable geographic fit includes numerous details unknown in Joseph Smith's day.

10. New World Geography

For the New World, dealing with geography is a two-step exercise. An internal geography must first be deduced from clues in the book, and this deduction must then be matched with a real-worl


passingtheword 5 years ago

you shared a lot but it is all rubish what are you talking about reformed Egyptian. Historians and linguistics are still laughing.

The promised land is not America buddy. Even thought it is the greatest country in the world (and proud to be and American) it is not the promised land. Read your bible (revelation 20 and keep reading) God's kingdom will be in Jerusalem.

The book of mormon is Joseph's imagination with the help of Ethan Smith who wrote “View of the Hebrews”


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

What is rubbish is that I presented to you several plausible archaeological facts which correlate with claims made in the Book of Mormon and still you dismiss all of it. as I stated before, no quantity of evidence will suffice to the unbeliever they will simply focus on what has not yet been discovered and use it a proof that the book of Mormon is false, that is until over time one by one those things are discovered.

The View of the Hebrews theory is yet another attempt to fit a secular origin to the Book of Mormon. Many of the criticisms proposed are based upon B. H. Roberts' list of parallels, which only had validity if one applied a hemispheric geography model to the Book of Mormon. There are a significant number of differences between the two books, which are easily discovered upon reading Ethan Smith's work. Many points that Ethan Smith thought were important are not mentioned at all in the Book of Mormon, and many of the "parallels" are no longer valid based upon current scholarship.

Advocates of the Ethan Smith theory must also explain why Joseph, the ostensible forger, had the chutzpah to point out the source of his forgery. They must also explain why, if Joseph found this evidence so compelling, he did not exploit it for use in the Book of Mormon text itself, since the Book of Mormon contains no reference to the many "unparallels" that Ethan assured his readers virtually guaranteed a Hebrew connection to the Amerindians.

I testify to you that the Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God through his prophet Joseph Smith.


passingtheword 5 years ago

Why would Joseph talk about ethan smith. His writings were a fantasy, his imagination. For Joseph to say that his work was backed by someone elses imagination is ridicules. It would show that he is a story teller.

The Maya calendar was discovered in 1790. So Joseph smith should have known about it in his day, guy. All he had to do was read a book to get his info. And if you have read about joseph smith he was fascinated by this kind of stuff.

Now you brought up B.H. Roberts. Well I am sure you have read his second guessings of the church and the book of Mormons false statements that you have shared above. (horses, steel, the type of swords that they used, silk). And like in everything that the lds claims to be history, no evidence has been found. I know that you are going to say that they was evidence. But look at the source, are Archeologists of the church. In fact all that I have mentioned did not come to the Americas until the 1400- 1500’s AD.

The rest of the stuff you shared, it was like a overload of things that the church Archeologist came up with to try to answer teaching the lds have. It is funny that the Archeologist that claim to be Mormons are the only ones coming up with these claim.

The bible (KJV) not the other ones the KJV has all types all Archeologist that find it to be true and support it.

And like i said before. The bible multi million dollar temples but they can't dig.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

Though it is possible that Joseph smith might have had access to such literature, the possibility of a fourteen year old farm boy in upstate New York with a 3rd grade education having the time and resources to study such material is slim to none.

And of course only LDS Archaeologists would come up with Pro Book of Mormon conclusions to their finds. You wouldn't expect a Muslim or an Atheist Archaeologist to go looking for evidence which supports the New Testament would you?

And as I said before, the church is not an archaeological society, it is a church and it's primary function is to bring souls to Christ, to care for the poor, and to build up the kingdom of God on Earth.


passingtheword 5 years ago

The book of mormon was released when Joseph Smith was 25 years old. He may have said he received his vision when he was 14 but the 25 joseph smith is the one that came out with the story of the book of mormon not a 14 year old boy.

None Christian archaeologist back the bible on the locations and most events.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 5 years ago from washington Author

regardless, it's still not plausible.

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