was judas forgiven?

Working through all the bull!

Exercises for a BullWorker ('get it'?) -I tried not to get so involved with it!
Exercises for a BullWorker ('get it'?) -I tried not to get so involved with it!

Whether Forgiven or not

Was Judas -

  • Like a Japanes Shogun (in a way)
  • Tretcherous back stabbing monster
  • Other (incl. Somewhere in between)
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summary

Whatever you think of Judas' motives.

I too don't think he was not paying attention in class. I think he was struggling to learn it.

Much of the struggle revolved around secular or earth ways of doing things that we pick up while here in our ignorance to free us of the life we had in heaven so that it doesn't get in the way of what we need to learn here.

In answer to brotherychanan's recent answer. I don't think it was lack of faith, nor criticism as he said 'I cannot find anything wrong with this man...'.

But I also think that it would be hard to live a life in Christ, so to speak when the one thing you had to do for him was to give him back to heaven where he, and we all in some way or another belongs.

The next question therefore is do we believe Judas is bad? The answer seems to be a resounding yes. But doesn't The Master JC. make this a mute point when he said "all are bad except god alone", therefore all the appostles were born to this sin as all mankind are.

Is then the question how bad?  How bad do you have to be before you become bad?  The book itself says it shall have nothing to do with maths.  Or something on those lines.  So how do we religiously say so and so is worse than such and such?  Is this for mankind to say???

 So is the next question "Would we do any better?" if the playing field was even and it remained unclear what the scripture meant, and we were too young to remember or experience the asteroid that hovered over the earth in its atmosphere while slowly burning out. -or whatever it was! Would our heirarchies of today behave any better with the things they still jealously guard for themselves? I think not.

It all comes to the question, were ythe appostles workers of dark or light? Was Judas an appostle, and does that link to who he was working for? Could a dark worker have been trusted for three minutes let alone three years -as some-one said- had he been stuck in what would then have perhaps been regarded as 'an enemy camp'?

These considerations you must ponder hard before giving your answer. I look forward to reading.

The Act was still Bad!

Does the fact God and Christ forgave him in their deeper understanding make what Judas did OK? Do You think it makes the act a good one? Not so, a necessary evil. And what comes from the soil can only be filled with muck!

And further still, If you drive a Ford or Vauxhall etc. Your still going to get from A to B. But somewhere in your mind Your dreaming of being able to drive a Porche or Ferrari or better yet, being driven in a Limosiene!

Is it right for Judas, having made the mistake to say If it can be forgiven it can't be that bad?
Or is it better that He seek to be a better person in future and hope that he doesn't upset his boss?

In explanation. He was invited to a person's party and allowed in to help with the business. Instead of running the business the way the Master wanted. He thought he could manipulate a situation and use it to his own advantage. He even thought he would be helping people. He would but only to become as bad or worse as their current oppressors -Therefore not really helping the 'little people' out!

So he didn't think things through, and cannot have had a proper understanding because he stole some-one elses property. It was not his to say what would or should happen! I know he was forgiven through the love of God, and I know that many people cannot in case similar happen to them and they lose their posessions. But now the subject has moved on to something else!

To conclude. If You are forgiven be thankful, and try to understand more deeply the implications of what you did. For it say's "If You can't be trusted with other people's Property in this world, no-one will trust you with property in the next. But again, we're back to my earlier argument. It had to be some-one with the lights best interest at heart. Any-one from darkness wouldn't have cared, and Our Lord would never have got to fulfill his work. Blessed is he who comes in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ the Nazareen!

Confusions

I don't want to make out that the act wasn't bad. But necessary in completion of The Lords work. In that the best place to be is not this world -earth. Actually even if you happen to have it's powers, riches, fame etc. that it offers. I don't know much about those who pprefer darkness, but I feel quite strongly that Judas prefered or prefers Light in it's purest form. And his keeness to join in that one film shows he asked (I don't add which as all have something. Though not sure about the passion...) suggests he knew enough to realise that's what he wanted. But not sure his intepretaation of what it actually entails was spot on.

Belief

Which faith are you

  • Christian
  • Agnostic
  • Atheist
  • Undecided
  • Anti-Christian
  • Another faith / Religion
  • none of the above
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Forgiven!

It's hard to fathom, or notice. But the question I ask about "Was Judas Forgiven" indicates there was something that needed a judgement. To be forgiven Judas first had to be Sorry. I believe he was Sorry, one version of the film. (I forget which, but an older one that I saw) shows that the plot Judas made was to force Jesus' hand. In the hopes of freeing the Hebrews etc. from the Roman oppression. Upon finding that this was a different kind of power that isn't Jesus Christ' bag (way) at all. He realised, and the film shows, I thinkm, that he was near to him, as close as was permitted when Jesus was suffering at the hands of those brutal and disgusting Roman soldiers. It shows Jesus had Great courage to not allow himself the temptation to put a stop to it. And this was what brought strength and endurance against oppression. The worst of the worst was defeated.

Judas on the other hand had to decide which side he was really on. And realising he had been invaded by the worst of the worst decided that he would not allow himself to be a vessell for any more of darkness' tricks etc. and ended his life. (Almost Gallant! -though I do wonder whether he could've changed from that point had he been helped. But, while the children (appostles) were still feeding off the milk, they would not have been strong enough to help him at that point. Or bring him back from such a deep and personal disaster. This only God, The Most High could do!

Amen.

Comments 63 comments

SirDent 6 years ago

The one thing you did not address in this hub is that Jesus said, "One of you has a devil." Even though the devil cannot force anyone to do anything, he can tempt us to do things.


brotheryochanan profile image

brotheryochanan 6 years ago from BC, canada

Glad to have had an impact. :)

Sometimes we forget these scriptures when wrestling with judas' innocence:

Matthew 26:24 "The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but WOE unto that MAN by whom the Son of man is BETRAYED! it had been good for that man if he had NOT been born".

Mark 14:21 "The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but WOE to that MAN by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had NEVER been born".

This doesn't sound like a forgiving experience for judas.

in luke 22:3 satan is said to go into the heart of judas this is odd to me because i perceive possession as being a "get out of jail free card". How can a person be responsible if an entity takes him/her over? But in the above quotations, the MAN is being blamed, not the possessor. God judges righteously, if satan possessed judas i expect satan to be guilty. I can only assume that satan is being used as a metaphor and not as a possessing entity. Possession to me is a loophole.

The amazingly accurate kjv bible has John 6:70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you IS a devil"? Here devil is, i am sure, being used metaphorically and it is not another name for satan either, which i am sure is being used metaphorically in luke 22:3 also.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 6 years ago from england Author

brotheryochanan, hi. Look again, I'm not sure but wasn't or isn't Jesus "The son of God"?, I've heard it said, but am no authority, and can only say I think it is written in The/any Bible. Thus, the son of man is surely any and all of us, and so hadn't we all better watch how we treat each other?

2. Possesion, The version I read said God ordered/allowed it. And you're right about a get out of jail free card, but isn't that the purpose for which JC wins the battle? To cause or find this forgiveness... If we look again JC commands Judas to "Be quick about your work!" when JI started to refuse to do it. And so maybe this is where the confusion is was he right to do it? Was that his sole purpose in living, and therefore was his (JI's) fight in being pursuaded by The enemy to not give him over to the authorities at the right time?

This makes me wonder that JI was actually of Light in the first place as any actuall follower of The dark force/s would've been all too keen to mess things up before they even got going!

So Judas' only real mistake was in trying to pursuade what he thought was his friend, in The Film "Greatest story ever told", that it was more than words, and so got confused with what his friend wanted, so we are shown that salvation isn't breaking ropes, magically retracting nails and healing skin, and flying down from the cross like Superman etc. As this would've been frightening, hence rule by fear. Remember the saying "The nations rule by fear, this must not be how it is with you." therefore it hadn't sunk in in his eagerness to save his friend, (people from the original question are right) he didn't pay enough attention in class.

Thanks. You've helped me to get it clearer in my own mind.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 6 years ago from england Author

SirDent. Hi. I hope my other response covers your question. And brotherychanan has highlighted well about possesion -ie. being forced to do things against ones own will or choosing. I would guess any influence is an attempt to gain control. Again though, I don't profess to be an expert, I'm certainly not the best placed to lead etc.


brotheryochanan profile image

brotheryochanan 6 years ago from BC, canada

I'll have to check out this "greatest story ever told". I am not ever inclined to 'add' to the word of god. I appreciate the historian joesephus' work, but, thats as far a I go to adopt other sources to formulate my doctrinal aspects. I'm not even convinced about some of the epistle addons to the N.T.

I'll get back to you about it, i may even write a hub about it.

Be well in the lord my friend.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 6 years ago from england Author

brotheryochanan. In UK The film is usually put out around Easter, this won't do you much good in Canada. I would guess from its number of years on the circuit that it may be best looking for a VHS version on ebay or something.

It shows bits from The sermon on the mount, and at the end when JC gathers his appostles and is ready to leave. JI has to be sent for as he is busy trying to pursuade what i can only guess as his friend, could be relative to believe and follow with him. Then a few scenes later he plots the test with this relative person.

Hope You find what you seek sooner not later. And look forward to what you have to say.


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 6 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

If Jesus was betrayed by anyone, it was not Judas who betrayed Him.

Judas was merely following through upon the wishes of his best friend and teacher, in order to fulfill the biblical prophecies of past prophets as ordained by God Himself.

He was ultimately betrayed by Caiaphas the High Priest, the leader of the Pharisees,and Sadducees, the Chief Priest,the religious leader of all the Jews in Jerusalem at that time. He was conspiring with King Herrod to make Jesus a scape-goat to be rid of Jesus and try to establish peace with Rome through Pilate.

Brother Dave.


Storytellersrus profile image

Storytellersrus 6 years ago from Stepping past clutter

Fascinating discussion. Who is to blame? Or is this a metaphor for what occurs inside each of us in life. We are darkness. We are light. We move in and out of goodness and favor.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 6 years ago from england Author

Storytellersrus: Very well put. Thank You!

Re- Your question: I'm not sure, but isn't mankind to blame for needing some-one to guide them?

Or God? ..for creating the mystery so that many might question, and take notice -and be saved. ...perhaps sky's the limit?


Bible Studies profile image

Bible Studies 6 years ago from PA

Yet, the question remains. Where was Judas' heart before he died? Do we really know? He threw away the money he was given to betray Jesus. Did the devil leave him after he betrayed Jesus, and Judas came to his senses so to speak? Did his conscience get to him after wards, and he repented before he died? If he repented and God forgave him, he couldn't forgive himself. He committed suicide. Suicide is another subject in and of itself.

Or was it Judas was just scared, and thought throwing the money away would somehow help his soul from eternal damnation? Yes, the scriptures are right that it would have been better if he was not born. Does that mean he didn't have any hope, or couldn't have changed his heart before God?

Interesting questions, which I'll need to study further on as God leads me to. I pray he will give you and I wisdom on the subject.

If a person today is possessed and they did a terrible deed, then what hope do they have if Judas didn't have any hope? I have to remember the sinner on the cross next to Jesus, who said he deserved to be there on the cross. In Roman times, hanging on the cross was reserved for the worst criminals. In today's terms it would be criminals on death row waiting to die. That man could have very well been possessed or influenced of the devil to commit his dastardly deed.

Yet, Jesus said to him today you will be with me in paradise. To me that says everyone on this Earth has hope before they die no matter what the crime was or if one was possessed or not.

Maybe the question should be was his heart right with God before he died? Is yours?

Here is another interesting thought. Did Jesus pick Judas just because he knew Judas would betray him? Why did Jesus need to be betrayed in the first place? They would have taken him anyhow. I have a feeling there is something we missed or I missed that we/I can learn from why did Jesus pick Judas. God probablly revealed it to someone already, and I didn't hear the teaching on it yet. I believe God will reveal it to me in his timing.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 6 years ago from england Author

Bible Studies: I believe I have given comment in "Judas - My Favorite Apostle", by Theophanes. Which may be of help to some of your questions. And perhaps some you didn't ask -well, me anyway! As follows:-

1. The term brother is correct only in the Spiritual sense. See the part where JC has to leave his material family behind in his quest to get back to God.

2. Jesus (JC) is not God but sent from God, The Spiritual Father. Judas therefore is brother only in the same way as the other appostles.

3. Judas was fishing with Peter, when Jesus met them. That is plain to see. Judas seems to have gone a bit hypo when meeting JC. Whether this is due to the old testament prophecies that they were best of friends, or simply equals among the Heaven World. We won't know until it is time to return to that World/realm.

4. Jesus did not ask Judas to betray him. He did say "be quick about your work!" he was referring to the work that was handed down to him by God that all mankind would know that God exists and so look to return when leaving this mortal coil (ie. "dying") and that way may be saved from other places that exist in this and that realm/s. And in the meantime might help the work by having thought for others -and the rest of it.

And therefore JC wasn't trying to rule the world, this was Judas' misconception, which perhaps had to be so that he would and could carry out that assigned work. So when people ask is he forgiven, I ask is that the question? Wasn't he commended for his role on his return?

Finally, if God had wanted to get this world back from the devil/s then he would be more likely to have given Judas the job. As he didn't He bade him "return home" as death is something mankind should not argue with, nor disobey. A failed act of suicide is God's "NO!" but death is considered to be His "yes" whisper.

hope that helps

Added for bible studies: Other conjecture: When I say 'handed down' this I think, is still from God but via the devil who chose the easiest target seeing that 'money is the root of all evil' and therefore chose to attack the weakest target. Believe it or not the darkness do submit to God but via power and hatred rather than love and respect and faith. That may be the crux of the waged war/bet in the Heavenly Kingdom.

Like the story the wind and the sun have a bet to see who can get the mans coat off him, the wind blows and blows but the man holds strongly to his hat and coat and runs from the wind until it is out of puff. Then the sun just sits in the sky an shines and shines, so the man eventually takes off gis coat. Game over!

Also: Avoid confusing the secular with the spiritual: eg. Courts are designed by mankind and so subject to human frailties weakness including that s word that we are born with that I don't like to talk about! -so as not to draw it near.

Of course Judas had hope, tons of it or I doubt he would have agreed to set off for this lesson for the rest of us mortals. You nearly answered this question yourself. Jesus died so that all mankind could be set free from this earthbound life and return home to heaven after doing their/our best in the exams. (ie. life). Remember people forget the world is designed this way to test mankind so that s/he can learn and hopefully improve and increase heavenly wealth.

Was his/my heart right pre-"passover" aka. death. I believe so in Judas' case. He wasn't left out of the visions etc. if you read what was supposedly his gospel. As for me it is sorted out (in a dream/s) I am meant to achieve something -personal to me.

Have I missed anything?


Bible Studies profile image

Bible Studies 6 years ago from PA

If Jesus is not God, then why is John 3:16 in the Bible? Why did Jesus say if you know me, then you know my father. If Jesus was not God, then he was only a prophet, and therefore not divine. He could not have died on the cross for our sins. If Jesus is not God, then we should throw out our Bibles.

I will always believe Jesus is God, just as the Holy Ghost is God, and God the Father is God. They are all the same God. Jesus is only perfect because he is God, because only God can be perfect. There are plenty of scriptures that prove that Jesus is God.

Actually the Bible says the love of money is the root of all evil. Not money itself. Just as any item we create are not evil or good, it's how we use the item. A knife can be used to cut meat, cut rope, or be used to kill. The knife itself is not evil, it is how we decide to use it.

Judas could not save the world or take it back from the devil, because he was only man. I do not believe Judas knew he was going to betray Jesus until the priests offered him the silver, then his greed/love of money got in the way. I believe Jesus knew what Judas was going to do even before he called him to be an apostle, since Jesus is God.

Jesus saved the world on the cross, and defeated the devil.

No I do not believe this Earth was originally meant to be a testing place. I believe the scripture when it says we were formed so God would not be lonely. He originally gave us everything we needed to live. He provided everything for us at first until sin entered.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 6 years ago from england Author

Bible Studies: I will try to answer your questions and comments, but I feel I have been told off somehow and suspect you may not want them answered. If this is so then let me appologise now for 'answering back'.

1. para. 1: My belief. Jesus meant he will show the way to His/&Our Father as the text also says somewhere that JC said something about "I am The Light, and no-one enters except through me..." without looking at the whole picture and just taking what we ourselves want is a mistake I feel.

2. Not Sure about him only being a Prophet as you say, because he also taught, healed, Evangelished (quoting OT etc.), didn't Peter get praised for saying he (JC) was, is The Messiah! Therefore he was more than 'just a Prophet', but not a God rather a leader of those of mankind that follow through faith not out of a need for power and rulership in this life.

Sorry, I am not sure of your term "devine" but if you mean special, holy, etc. then yes he was because he passed his test and did his work, knew how to heal -which is even beyond the doctors and nurses of our time.

3. On the contrary, if he was God, then dying on the cross would not have been such a task. And if it doesn't come hard -then is it all that special?

4. There are many bibles that have varying beliefs. Various sub-religions and cults tended to change them later for their own purpose; it seems many wanted to be followed themselves ratrher than give true teaching to God, Jesus. And even of The Holy Helper, whom I believe was created by man! (Sorry, if this upsets you -but I do believe it). For me the only bibles I would have time for are 1. Oxbridge (university -old), 2. The one my dear old Granny left me which just says "The Bible Societies and appears to be Church of England (is that Anglican or Protestant or same/same, I do get mixed up with all the arguing they do). 3. Catholic and Methodist -if they are different to (2)- although we don't actually have a copy and I've never read either of these. Also Granny liked King James version, and if I had more time I might look at that... I'd say, if you do have a stable link with the next world, ask there, but beware as darkness can often use light to fool people, and my version says something about avoiding those who don't believe JC was man. So yes. I would throw the ret away, having checked for anything that might make sense that isn't there in the others -so that it isn't lost. Though who would agree on what to save, it would recreate all the separation etc. that exists in religion...

(para 2.)

1. Believe what you want, I'm not trying to change your mind, but to put my thoughts across. I'm sure you won't change my mind either. I would ask though. Why would God split himself into not two, but three separate beings??? That, my friend, is/would be if your doctrine is/were true. It seems like a very schizophrenic version ogf God with a borderline personality disorder. Sorry, but it does! And I don't believe JC was perfect, it was once said in a conversation somewhere that Solomon, had he come with wisdom rather than simply word would have perhaps got more of the scriptures, teachings etc. But, of course that is too technical to be needed, except to say we only need to be good enough, perfection would become cruel, stiffling as it would be unforgiving when things went wrong.

2./next: There are plenty of misread, mis represented scriptures that are mis-understood, or taken powerfully by some who set themselves up as leaders to mean what they want them to mean. And Jesus as much indicated this to the pharisees, I think. (and my quote is rough as I don't believe in perfection) "You make people twice as worthy to be lost as you yourselves", and somewhere "you don't go in yourselves and you prevent others from going in" -presumably the doorway of devine Light. This is true of those who hid Judas' version of accounts so that we can't really know anything for sure, but this fits in with faith so is not so bad. But without both sides of the story, how can any-one really know??

(para 3.)

1. I first looked at this, and thought "splitting hairs", but perhaps you are right. Thanks for the additional info. re "love of money". Though money only really has one purpose, whether spent, saved or invested, because every-one is out to make prophet, few will tolerate being ripped off unless they don't want confrontation. I still say it has an unhealthy grip on this world. But if you've found a way to do some unselfish good with it then more credit to you! And 2. Objects are set to become what we use them for and create certain vibrations... I will leave the paragraph at that.

(para 4.)

1. I'm not going to argue about Judas, as I think any/most other believes get involved in conspiracies, or other things, fakery which brings the importance of it down. I will say again that I strongly disagree with "Jesus is God", and add if so, what would be the point of calling them different names -because we call God "God" because that is who he is. (humour: Although JC called him "Hallowed" in his prayer!). I don't think JC would have considered it much until the time it was becoming due becayse why cause yourself all that worry etc. too soon. His Gift/s from God allowed him to know who to select, and yes. Even why, just like a football manager knows where his players are to play, and what he wants them to do etc. It's about knowing. To know we must learn!

(para 5.)

No argument with this line!

(para 6.)

1. Again, as always, believe what you want. you are not me and I am not you. In some ways I can understand your point of view. But again it mixes the material with the spiritual. If you look. And forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe the part you are referring to be mostly Genesis -where, for those who may be reading with less biblical knowledge, Mankind was invented and instead of being happy with what he had, wanted more. The Apple of knowledge that meant we had to be "cast out" from the Peaceful World (ie. Heaven!) To a World of chaos! Now if your trying to tell me God created two heavenly places, again I ask; "What would be the point?". So I say again, be careful to not mix the material with the Spiritual. As it is a very common mistake.

How do you define the S-word? It was always there, but when it -or those that test man and are/were ofman thought he was gone saw its chance to prove to God that mankind isn't yet ready to share such a beautiful place. And if you remember the other tree of the Gods was therefore taken away. And I do remember (reading)JC saying that he would not take the Wine (what do you make wine with?) until the last one had got as far as him. (again rough quote, as I am unable to remember places etc. Which some are so much better than me at. But, I think you will find the validity sound enough.

One last point. As a child I did not attend bible class. I have read in adulthood, where my understanding was much improved, and my life experience more. I believe this happened so that I was spaed being doctrined with what others believe, and have been allowed the freedom to learn for myself what I believe, not some uniform body as usually these have their own agenda, make their own mistakes etc. I would not join such a place -especially where there is a fee/s or some form of payment required to get in. I just wished that to be known.


Bible Studies profile image

Bible Studies 6 years ago from PA

From your reply, I know that what we believe is very different. I go by the KJV Bible. I do know if Jesus was not perfect, then he could not have died for our sins. We have no gift of salvation. Jesus took over the the place of the sacrificial lamb that had to be without spot or blemish the Jews killed to get rid of their sins.

Jesus said he had to go in order for the comforter to come to us. The comforter being the Holy Ghost which appeared as flames above the heads of the 120 in the upper room. When Jesus died, the veil torn which represents that we no longer needed to go to the temple to worship God. God's dwelling place is no longer in the holy of holies. His dwelling place is now in us.

Christ dying on the cross was a major event. I read scientific papers that Jesus should have died 7 different times before he even got to the cross. No man could have gone through what he did.

I do not believe Jesus was a prophet, but there are those who believe he is and not God.

I believe he is man and God. God who came down in man form. He is still a divine being who was perfect.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 6 years ago from england Author

Bible Studies: If by perfect you mean pure of heart then yes. I can go along with the definition. If you mean he could do no wrong, then no because 1. Sometimes life causes us to decide priorities. 2. It would mean/could be construed as freedom to choice being removed and therefore takes some of the glory/importance etc. away.

JC a prophet, as one of his abilities. ie. Not 'just a prophet' but a person holding that as one of his Gifts from God should he need it at some point. In the bible societies version ("bsv" from now on) in Revelation it is unclear (now) in my memory whether JC is talking about his prophetic words /or whether John is talking about 1. his, 2. JC's Prophecy.

I have no real argument/qualm with anything else in your last comment, except the last paragraph. And though this may be more my lack of knowing what goes on in this world. But I can say I've never seen or heard of any-one doing all the things, performing all the miracles, challenging the scholars etc., etc. as JC is believed, reported to have done. And one of his scriptures, I vaguely remember, he talks of The OT. Where it says "..God said to the people of that time 'You are all gods'..." so what are we arguing about? And if it your way of saying He was/is special, then of course. I know my own heart isn't pure like I would want it to be...The important thing we remember is he had all the human frailtais -ie."prick me, do I not bleed?" besides good, strong and fast and stable access to God.

Thanks again for your comments. U.R. Always Welcome!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

My answer is yes. Judas was forgiven. Just as Judas stood before Christ and kissed His cheek in betrayal, Christ still called him friend. I think the guilt Judas felt when he learned that he betrayed the saviour of the world was more than he could bear. So he took his own life. For anyone to answer "no", gives me grief, as who are we to judge anyone.


Michael-Milec profile image

Michael-Milec 3 years ago

@ SwordofManticorE ,

May the God Allmighty, the Holy Spirit it is continue to keep you in His grace as you're being led and taught very correctly. You aren't standing lone in the way believing as you've expressed your revelation knowledge so far.

In the future time we might share more of this only and proven truth .

Stay continually blessed.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 3 years ago from HubPages, FB

It is not really in our department to decide whether Judas was forgiven by Lord or not. Of course Jesus did forgive him. But it is not about forgiveness only. It is about faith. The salvation - Grace is only received by faith.

It is not about what we did or not. Because it is not at all about work as we might presume.

Jesus forgave all and saved all. But faith is only we can receive gift, what He done for us. Paul said if one confess with mouth Jesus is Lord and believes in his heart God raised him from death is saved. See forgiveness and Grace one cannot have unless he receive what is available to him.

It is not if we do better or not it is what He – Jesus done for us. This is the key. Eleven disciples had opportunity to believe Jesus was raised from the death. Even thou no one was direct witness of resurrection. No one except ministering angels can see resurrection. The disciples seen only outcome of it. To see Jesus was raised would mean cancelling faith since seeing is not believing. Adam sin was broken faith in Word of God and believing Serpent’s lie.

Who believe is saved. The faith determines action. Our work (fruit) then is result what we are. Some still major on work as the primary matter. But primary is faith and work is secondary. The tree brings fruit because it is “apple tree” and not fruit make decorated Christmas three “apple tree”.

I said to my cousin: I am not judgment teacher, but the court (judgment day) will come. Who is your advocate? Who is your layer?

The problem with Judas was even he was sorry he did not give chance to receive new birth by incorruptible seed Word of God to receive faith:

1Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.

In conclusion it is not weather Lord Jesus forgive or not but weather man receive it or not


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Vlad, so if Christ forgave Judas, where is he now?


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 3 years ago from HubPages, FB

The same place here rich man gone. Lazarus is in heaven. Lord forgave to all but not all received.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

The rich man from Luke 16 is not a real person, it is symbolic for Judah, and Lazerus is symbolic for the gentile nations. I encourage you to see the spiritual message in Christ's words (John 6:63).


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

Vladimir Uhri: I liked the conclusion, Thank You. (I must admit, the rest was hard for me to follow)


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 3 years ago from HubPages, FB

days leaper. I am not surprise. Just talked to my friend how I am amazed, when one is speaking spiritual, people do not understand. When I am addressing troubles all fallow well. But it is OK. It will be good let me know specific, I may explain gladly

SwordofManticorE. I do agree with you.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

Vladimir Uhri: Thanks for this offer. If I get really stuck, I will. But usually, if I do really need to know something I tend to get the answer soon enough. -I must say You have grasped the language very well. (I find it hard enough, and having said that, I was born and grew up with it!)


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

SwordofManticorE: I read on from where you said. It does say in one version "One of you IS a devil", whilst in another it says "One of you has (HAS) a demon /devil". Hence the "wrestling match of his mind (so to speak) that Judas eventually lost. That said I have to believe Judas had the right intentions -in his own mind at least, and Of course The Master; Lord Christ Jesus did warn "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" that aside, I still believe that Judas was forgiven, not because he was particularly deserving as such, but because of The Power of Christ and The Love The Lord God (Jesus Christ, and mankinds Father_spiritual). And that brings up another point in my mind. Christ was/is eldest, or first son of God. First past the post so to speak.

And with that my contribution to Evangelism is almost done. (for the time being at least) I will say on a lighter note. About the argument that Eve came from Adams side, not head or foot. It is therefore obvious that without Adam asking for a companion Eve would not exist. -So, you'd think women would show us fellows some gratitude!!!!!


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 3 years ago from HubPages, FB

It is interesting conversation. Of course I study and teach Bible for over 60 years. The same time I do write. I am searching for truth independent on tradition or any new doctrines. I do not believe all humanity is saved automatically unless people believe. It is like someone is sending by mail package with let say gift of "FORGIVENESS" one cannot have it if he does not receive it. It is very simple to understand. If all be saved just because Jesus died on the cross for all we do not have to pray for people or witness or Jesus does not have to send Holy Spirit to convince the world of sin of unbelief (John 16:9).


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Vlad, I guess it is how one approaches scripture that he gets his interpretation from it. Some believe that some are saved while others interpret scripture and find that all are saved. I believe it comes down to attitude and love.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

Vladimir..: I think you're right. For example, there is a theme park called Alten Towers (among others), if I didn't know it existed I wouldn't plan the trip. As is I know it exists it has been advertised. However, I have no clue how to get there. And so on planning my trip I must ask some-one who does to find out. They may "preach" and tell me, or give me a map/directions of where to get one, or both. (Thank You, I believe I missed that important point.) Oh, there's one more way, if I don't understand the speaker or/and am unable to read maps. I must rely on some-one to take me -like I did as a child with the schoool trip/s!


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

SwordofManticorE: ...And a little Faith! (Thanks ..Man..)


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

So true.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 3 years ago from HubPages, FB

Hello SwordofManticorE . It is not about interpretation or opinion. Opinion of man is religion. One has to have assurance in spirit of being saved. This is what scripture said: Love is only fruit of men (the spirit). But faith is product of Word of God.

Religion was born in Hell. The Bible said who received Him, He gave an authority to be sons of God. Is it not clear? Agape love.

days leaper: amen.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Sorry my friend, but no where in the orginal Greek or Hebrew texts will you find the word hell. His love is perfect as well as His mercy. He is unfailing and loves all His children. His mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2).


Michael-Milec profile image

Michael-Milec 3 years ago

Even if we depend on reading what has been previously published, our "knowledge " is equally limited :

שארל. or שאל is Hebrew translated hades or the world of the dead has appeared translated in Englosh language as ' hell ' ; ' grave ' ; ' pit ' ...

γεεννα used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment -- hell .

άδης "Hades" state of departed souls , grave hell.

James 2:13 "The judge will be merciless to the man who has shown no mercy. But the man who has shown himself merciful has nothing to fear from the judge." TNT


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Wow, all those different Hebrew words, yet you still insist the translation in English is hell. Allow me to share something with you. The word hell is slowly being removed from the bible.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

SwordofManticorE, and Michael-Milec, and Vladimir Uhri: Thank You all for hoosing my hub for your debate. I feel somewhat honoured somehow.

No, we humans can't possibly know everything, and what is more we don't need to! For one thing even if a human could hold or take all that knowing, in so doing would negae faith, wouldn't it? Isn't that what belief is about? If you're purpose is wondering whether i think hell exists, well err, yes. But only because mankind created it! Having said that, I also believe that to deny it or any negative exists only makes it stronge !!!

To, Shantoo...


Michael Milec 3 years ago

Can following odd acurance be explained : this morning ( around 4: am) two responses to above comment were published, who have removed them, please. They both were worth of further conversation .


Michael Milec 3 years ago

Now it's back , do I have problem with my iPad . Now tis would be worth to be removed. Thanks


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

M..Milec: I haven't removed anything or denied comments. These are the first two Ive read since my last comment.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 3 years ago from HubPages, FB

Hello friends. There is 54 times using word hell in the Bible. Then Jesus was saying about Rich man and Lazarus. After death Lazarus went to underground paradise, called Abraham's bosom where Old Testament saints believers temporary were. The Rich man went to the hell, where was fire and pain.

Then Jesus said He will go as Jonah to the heart of the earth... Actually I edited book of Prophet Jonah and seen that Jonas went down under the mountains of the sea out of “fish”. I believe Jonas died and was resurrected three days later. Jesus died and His body was placed not under but to the crypt about three feet above the ground. I was at the grave. But His inner man spirit and soul went deep to the heart of the earth.

Another scriptures said:

Psa_68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men

Paul is quoting Psalms:

Eph_4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph_4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Well one who do not believes in hell must take scissors and cut all the scriptures out.

The coin has two sides. Also God is love and the same time righteous. Judgment day comes but believers were already judged on Calvary as I mentioned before.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

vlad, read the parablr again and pray for its spiritual meaning. Carnal eyes will interpret it always literally.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

SwordMan. & ..Uhri: I will allow this. But be careful as obsessing about something may be the same as making a Mantra about it. Concentrate on The Positive, and you know the saying, I'm sure, about "Let sleeping dogs sleep!" ...


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

SwordMan. & ..Uhri: I will allow this. But be careful as obsessing about something may be the same as making a Mantra about it. Concentrate on The Positive, and you know the saying, I'm sure, about "Let sleeping dogs sleep!" ...


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

What seems to be the problem Days, vlad and I are in a discussion that is relative to your hub.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

SwordMan..: Undoubted, and again Thanks. But we seem to be focussing on the somewhat negative side. OK Hell exists, but what can we do about it? The point of the Hub is that while all that does exist, through The coming of Jesus Christ, The Messiah. We are or can be spared from it. And on our personal last day, as such we therefore don't need to worry about it so much for ourselves. If, as I, and I'm sure we believe that Judas has been forgiven, and it's all consigned to history where it belongs. And the act he did could be construed as at least as bad as anything any-one has ever done, at least on the face of it. Therefore the fact /possibility that he was & IS forgiven suggests that we may be all spared from that place also known as eternal damnation -by some misguided zealots.

My concern, my hubpage Friends in The Faith, was for You that we may be better guided to talk on How and why The Lord and Master, Saviour Christ Jesus' coming was so special, and indeed is still so today!

May The Living Lord God, Most High Bless You Both/all with all that you may need!!

days...


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 3 years ago from HubPages, FB

Days, receive my blessing that overflows. Agape.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Well I totally disagree with you about your belief in hell sister. As I know it does not exist. Christ saved us all from our sleep in the grave, including Judas. Because Judas has been reconciled with God (2Cor 5).


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

Vlad..Uhri: Thank You, I feel much warmth towards You.

Sword..Man..: I still feel much hope for You, and think only that you have further to go in Your searching for the truth, Way and Light etc. So, I ask this. What exactly are we being saved from? If it is only sleep (which I gather also exists) then what? Don't we humans make every provision to make ourselves comfortable, even at night, let alone at the end of it where that coffin is probably lined better and possibly made warmer than any bed ever made! It's not as though we're going to feel anything if we're asleep is it?

But No, I sense there is in death as in life, some kind of 'tug of war' going on. Thankfully, as we know the truth, we know that The True Light (not false light) is stronger than darkness. Thus we therefore know we are saved upon the asking! -And genuinely meaning our wish, and feeling the need to be saved!!!

It would be nice to believe in a world/universe without hell. But, then we would be forgetting how cruel elements of mankind can be toward each other. The war is less about up and down, more a left and right based upon our grasp of things. I won't quote parts of the bible, or give away where I found this, or how I realised it. It is a case of seek and find. God Bless!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Ecc 9:5For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

Psalm 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalms 13:3Look on me and answer, LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,

Psalms 90:5Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death-- they are like the new grass of the morning:

Sister, I would of hoped for a more positive responce from you, because doesn't the thought of all being saved bring both joy and peace to your heart. It does mine. Christians think that we are bodies seeking a spiritual experience, but I think we are spirits experiencing a bodly experience (prodigal son). How does eternal torture in a place called hell glorify God's love and mercy? It doesn't.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

sword..Man... : 1. "Sister", 2. Accusation of not taking joy WHEN some-one is saved...??? Are these comments directed at me? Who was saved? We are merely talking about it, and some of us are dreaming of the day to come that we are saved from this world and it's ways.

Please reitterate what you are saying, and whom you are saying it to. And have you actually checked my profile? (Thank You.)


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

What have I said that is so offensive? I am speaking about a God who is Father to all. The love He has for His children is beyond our understanding. You started out by asking if Judas was forgiven, and I took it up a noch to say yes, as so are we all.


Michael-Milec profile image

Michael-Milec 3 years ago

Q. : Was Judas Forgiven?

A.: its between him and his god .


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

Sword..Man...: Not so much "offensive" as unclear. I was trying to bring out the point that to assume we have God's forgiveness automatically is somewhat Arrogant. I'm currently questioning and think that the process for Judas, as of any wrong doer is one of serious and truly heartfelt regret, that may in itself require some kind of "limbo" or something. (My own upbringing leaves many gaps as it was not instilled with any discipline -though for this I am truly glad because at the time I wasn't ready! ...It's just no-one seems to fill in the blanks with things when you get to my age!)

To get back to the point: I'm thinking that this emotional process is like some kind of cleansing, or attempt to. And is required for the process to work, but like M..Milec says 'It's between him and his God'.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 3 years ago from HubPages, FB

Man messed in Garden of Eden which was broken faith and trust in Word of God. He was not “Edenic” material any more to live in. He lost all.

Man has to restore faith and it is only way to connect back with God. One cannot work to gain faith only and faith comes by hearing of Word of God.

God offered Grace to us but we must receive it by faith.

Jesus forgave to all and died for all. But one cannot have it, if he do not receive it by faith.

Hell was not created for men but for Satan and those who was born to his family. Man has to decide he is and where he will go.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

If hell was not created for man, then why does God send men there?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@ days leaper, if you believe that it is between God and him, what its the sense of this hub?


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

Sword..Man..: OK. He might've had to appologise to Jesus... That is a whole other line. I believe in some way he did. At the point where Judas is found out at The last supper. And says something on the lines of 'I won't do it then!'. When Jesus in no uncertain terms points out it is work deemed necessary. "Be Quick about your work!", I believe is the exact quote.

The sense of this hub you have answered with your very question! Do people realise all this? It is a useful topic to help a persons questioning and their own abilities to forgive. After all, The Lords prayer does say "...Forgive us, ... as we forgive those who trespass against us." Doesn't this statement suggest that what we do is very much led by that which is done unto us???

Furthermore it indicates the asking of forgiveness! The Lord is above alll, therefore His prayer is of utmost importance. I rest my case on that, I think!


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

SwordofManticorE 63 minutes ago from Burlington said:-

"If hell was not created for man, then why does God send men there?"

Oh dear goodness, SwordofManticorE. Much questioning in You, this is Good of course but I think probably too much for man /person/s to answer everything you wish to know. I will have a go on this one.

Hell was created for mankind, BY MANKIND!

DOES GOD send them there?

err, Yes and No. Look where it says "You are all gods" The Lord God said this to a people of a time supposedly less sophisticated that our 21 century time of being. And they are made gods???! What then of future generations???

I believe that The Lord God isn't responsible for making hell. Nor for sending any-one there. All I suspect God does is allow us to make our mistakes for the purpose of learning, and hopes things work out in the end whilst trying to guide us all in the right direction (against stiff opposition, I might add), sending The Saviour with His message -for example!

Hope that helps!


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

Vladimir Uhri: re. Last para. That might have been original intention. But, it still ignores that all behaviour comes from having learned that behaviour. Nothing is given only taken away. Much to answer yet nothing to say. Outlook bland, an ever decreasing grey. Nothing will come just goes away.

Sorry, if you don't like poetry. This just came to me now as I tried to answer your question. /work out your last thought. Only, I have come to believe that mankind holds the wrong opinion about Heaven and Hell. It is less good up, bad down. More a tug of war, Some 'good' people are better than other 'good' people. As are some 'bad' people are worse than other 'bad' people. If an average 'good' person comes up against a strong 'bad' person s/he must look to a better 'good' person in the hopes of finding help to get through it.

A barrel fills up with water. If the barrel is big enough and over time gets full enough. Then there aren't many who can move it. If the water isn't dealt with. (either drained away, or used in the garden. It becomes bad ceases to work anymore. The water fills up and causes toxins to flood back into the garden.

Now, there are mechanics, and there are handymen. A Handyman can take the barrel away, whilst a mechanic can shift all the muck inside so that the barrel can hold clean water again. That barrel better hope it's owner looks after it properly and allows the water to flow out regularly. The water by the way is The love energies, etc.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@ Days, now I am confused. How did mankind build a place of eternal torture? Asuming that it is only your opinion, because this theology does not add up to who God is, and as for Judas apoligizing to Christ, the prodigal son didn't even get a chance to explain himself to his Father, because his father felt great joy at his return. So I doubt Christ requires an apoligie, because He is much better than that.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

Sword..Man..: I must assume you know Jesus on a personal level then because I assumed that we were merely speculating on what is hard to know (impossible without faith, I think!)

Great Joy at returning Yes, but we are all warned that it is still not automatic! Did You read where The NT. Quotes Our Lord Jesus as saying "Father, Why have you foresaken me". My interpretation is that He meant basically, 'can I come in now.' So we see our Lord, and Master The Messiah Jesus Christ our Saviour having to ask, then shouldn't the rest of us ask with humility when it is our time?

The common interpretation of the theology, maybe. These are rarely genius in their observations and careless in the work they do -when not having water balloon fights, and wild parties etc. -as a 'norm'.

To answer your first question last. The answer is the same as how is mankind saved? That Is BELIEF!

I rather not quote too much as I feel this leads to Cult-ism, the other day the pestering Jehovas Witnesses were around. Frankly, I hate being interupted when I'm tending to my own affairs. So, thankful this time that I was out!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Christianity in its own definition today is a cult. It has strayed off the path of truth. We have tens of thousands of denominations world wide that may share some doctrines, but still do not agree with the others. JWs are just as Christian as you and I are, and as for BELIEF! I only need say that every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Christ is Lord.


days leaper profile image

days leaper 3 years ago from england Author

Sword..Man..: I have no real argument with that, talking about the 'outer modes' of ..any religion I suppose deviates from its truth. JW's certainly do have something. Even if it is only (speaking to my limited knowledge, you understand) -the fact they suffer alot. I had an ignorant next door neighbour at a previous address whom thought it was funny to pour water over their heads. I just say, I know you mean well, but it is a private thing, and I'm not interested in standing at the door in the freezing cold (renal anemia etc.) or joining your organisation... (Why am I saying this.. It seemed funy in a way, not joining organisations... I am my own denomination! *Ha!ha!! -it seemed funny anyway). Although I did frown a bit at some-one who took his daughter round as its so emotive it makes it quite dangerous. So, if he was using his 6 or 7 year old as some sort of protection.. Clearly he's not truly ready, a part of my objection.


Michael-Milec profile image

Michael-Milec 3 years ago

@ SwordofManticorE, Hi.

Correct, 'Christianity' -- in it's own definition - as known today is more like " christianism " as any other "-ism" man made anyway.

Some 22years ago on my visit to Moscow , I had chance to speak to a group of post- graduate students at the University, incl. some foreigners.

My translator refused at first to translate my statement" Christianity as is known today in the world, is dominated by the Devil." The objection was," this are new Christians." A few illustration from this continent's Christian- religion propaganda, the discussion followed. It was one of the best class I ever had in Russia , since many already spoke English language. The final understanding rested upon the TRUTH of the Word, which is faith in Jesus Christ, knowing what is right and to live righteously , on personal basis which can be done independently of joining traditional churchism.

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