I'm not a hunter.
If I needed to feed myself and or family, I could.
What would another "logical" reason be?
I can think of none.
To prove that one is "Great White Hunter" No different than the mentality that nearly wiped out the Buffalo
They have become a hazard and a nuisance in many instances. They have inbred so that many are genetically weak and a detriment to the species.
They have killed people by running out in front of their vehicles, destroyed property and spread disease.
So there is a reason to cull the weak and diseased. For their own good as well as our own.
Eh, the problem is that hunters don't take the weak and diseased, they take the young and strong.
Also, they tend to go kind of ballistic if game popilations start dropping - witness the hysteria in the Yellowstone area because wolves have reduced the elk population by half. Never mind that the elk were severely overpopulated to the point that they were starving en masse in bad winters and destroying Yellowstone's ecosystem by trampling streambanks, eating saplings, etc. Whitetail populations are kept deliberately too high across much of the US for the benefit of hunters. Drivers, gardeners, and local ecosystems be damned.
ETA: This sounds like I hate hunters a lot more than I do. I grew up in rural Nebraska, so practically everyone I know is a hunter, and I have a lot of respect for them in general. They do lots of good in the world, especially on habitat conservation issues.
But like any other large group of people, there are some bad apples in the bucket, and the influence that hunters as a group (not individually) have on wildlife policy tends to be detrimental not only to local ecosystems and other people in the region (in addition to auto collisions and ravaged gardens, keeping deer populations artificially high for the benefit of hunters also contributes to exploding rates of lyme disease), but also to the very game populations they claim to be "managing wisely." Despite their claims to the contrary, hunters are much more likely to encourage overpopulation than prevent it.
Kerry, I have to partially agree with you. Deer hunters have created an "artificial" deer population in many parts of the country. When I lived on a large cattle operation with my ex, we had tons of deer. When the foundation for our home was poured, the deer walked through it and left tracks, and they could just about always be seen eating from the cattle feeders. I did some deer hunting, but there was no challenge in it for me. I much prefered quail hunting - the population was natural, and there was more of a challenge to find them. You also needed a good dog.
I don't believe, however, that deer hunting or any other type of hunting is cruel when done properly. In fact, if you're going to kill animals for meat, hunting is the most humane method of doing so. So many "city folks" are so far removed from the real food chain that some of them never consider the suffering that goes into those neatly packaged cuts of meat in stores.
As far as our deer hunting was concerned, we usually killed only two per year, although we "fed" a large number of deer every year, whether we wanted to or not. As you alluded to, there are a few terrible hunters out there who kill out of season, use dogs to run deer, and kill only for a trophy. We sometimes found beheaded bucks taken just for the trophy head, and the rest of the meat was left to rot. Good hunters don't do crap like that!
Oh yeah, I agree absolutely with you about the cruelty of hunting. I mean, if I were a deer I'd rather be alive, but if I had to be dead, I'd much rather die with one clean shot than have my guts slowly ripped out by wolves! You're also right that hunting is much healthier, more humane, and better for the environment than factory farmed meat.
The bad wildlife policy supported by many hunters just really gets my goat. Some of the most vicious hate speech I've ever seen in my life was directed against Yellowstone's wolves on a hunting forum I stumbled across once, despite a veritable mountain of evidence that reintroducing wolves was the best thing that ever happened to Yellowstone, and it kills me that these outdoorsmen are so blinded by their own hate that they can't see that they're destroying the very thing they claim to love and protect.
Kerry, we were victims of some of this hate. A group of deer hunters were hunting on our land without permission, and they were using dogs, which was legal in our county at the time. These weren't dogs that were used to track wounded deer. These packs of dogs ran the deer to death and them ripped them apart. As the so-called hunters followed the deer and the dogs, they would cut through our fences and let the cows out. They would run over crops. The dogs sometimes killed calves. They had no regard for the deer or for the property of others. My ex father-in-law was instrumental in getting deer hunting with dogs banned in our area. As a result, the dog hunters burned down two of our barns, and my father-in-law received numerous death threats.
i wonder what the point is to let the dogs rip apart the deer? wouldnt the meat be tainted then? are they hunting purely for sport, or for the antlers? this kind of hunting is hideous.
They didn't care about the meat. Heck, a lot of them didn't even care about the antlers. Some of them used to brag about how the deer "squealed" as the dogs killed it. IMO, these people are sick individuals. A good hunter wants to drop a deer as quickly as possible with a well aimed shot.
Ugh, yeah, those types of hunter make me sick. There used to be (possibly still are - don't have the stomach to look) tons of videos on YouTube of "hunters" using prairie dogs for target practice and hooting and hollering as their little bodies exploded. Sickos.
It's another example of stupid wildlife policy masquerading as "wise management," too. Ranchers claim cows break their legs in prairie dog holes, but studies have found that cows prefer grazing in prairie dog town because of the higher quality forage. And prairie dogs are instrumental in maintaining groundwater levels, so the prairie dogs will get the last laugh when the Plains dry up and the cattle starve.
That is sick. I don't believe in killing any animal for "fun." I don't even kill spiders I find in my house - unless it's a black widow or brown recluse. I hate to hear about people killing nonvenomous, snakes, too. The old "The only good snake is a dead snake" adage is ridiculous. Snakes have a vital part in the environment, and many farmers realize this. Take Randy Godwin, for example. He goes out of his way to avoid injuring snakes and has even been known to move rattlesnakes to other locations, away from people. He sees snakes all the time, and he understands them. Town folks, however, are largely afraid of serpents, partly because they can't tell a venomous one from a harmless one.
Hee, yeah. In college, my friends thought I was nuts when they caught me catching spiders and letting them go outside, but after awhile they started calling me to rescue them instead of just smushing them on sight. I considered it progress!
I rescue earthworms off the sidewalk after it rains, too, which gets even weirder looks, but I'm a gardener. Worms are my best friends.
We have some old paving blocks stacked in one corner of the yard and had at least three snakes hanging around this summer. They like to sun themselves on the blocks and they're also right next to the compost heap and the vegetable garden, so there are big juicy worms and other goodies galore.
The hunters in Nebraska would not last long down here, Kerry! Most hunters I'm familiar with are very conscientious about the deer population and actually never kill even close to their limit of deer. This is why the bag limit keeps going up every few years.
Those who do not experience the ancient urge to hunt are unaware of how powerful this ingrained impulse is and tend to disapprove of the sport. There is honor in hunting and for the prey itself, despite your unawareness of the instinct.
How can you completely do away with instinctive urges which kept our species alive for hundreds of thousands of years. Just because you do not understand these feelings does not mean they are non-existent!
I'm not arguing that hunting itself is bad. I have tons of respect for responsible hunters. I am just arguing that hunters as a group tend to be rather single-minded about populations of game, and anything that drops them, even if they desperately need to be cut by half or more, gets painted as the enemy despite all evidence to the contrary.
The situation with wolf reintroduction in Yellowstone that I discussed above with habee is just one example. Another comes from the esteemed former governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin, who charged taxpayers $1000 an hour to gun down wolves and bears (even sows with cubs) from planes in pursuit of "unattainable, unsustainable, historically high populations" of moose and caribou. In Pennsylvania, a wildlife biologist who advocated severe culling of the herd due to the environmental havoc it was causing on the state's forests received so many death threats from hunters that he started going to work in a bulletproof vest.
What was the problem with the forest damage? Were the deer eating the trees?
Yes. At that time the deer population had gotten so large that the forests had literally stopped regenerating because all the saplings were getting eaten to death. (Same thing happened to aspen and cottonwood in Yellowstone with the elk.) The deer also exacerbate the spread of invasive plants because they destroy populations of more palatable native plants, plus deer "managers" encourage the fragmentation of forests to encourage more of the edge habitat preferred by deer. Unfortunately, most invasive plant species are also natural edge lovers.
That was one of the first things to turn me against Palin. Many more reasons followed, however. lol
I agree, those hunters wouldn't last long where I'm from either. I've hunted since age 14 and raised two boys the same way. The number of poachers, or otherwise illegal hunters is a very small percentage of the total population of hunters. I've only known of a couple poachers in my entire life and I live in North Idaho, with some of the best natural hunting in the lower 48 states. The only reason anybody hears about them at all is because of media hype and misinformation spread by animal rights activists and other groups with ulterior agendas. Don't believe everything you hear about the cruelty of hunting. Oh, and by the way, for those who have said "I'd hunt them and eat them for survival or to feed my family if we were starving", do you honestly think you can just walk up to a whitetail and shoot it? How naive can you be? Except for the cornfields and such where whitetail find easy food, whitetail are notoriously clever, quick, and are difficult to get a reasonable shot at most of the time. To hunt them in their normal habitat is quite challenging and provides a sense of real accomplishment besides the meat and hide. By the time you people decided you were hungry enough to shoot one you would be so weak you couldn't track a wounded animal a half mile. Of course you probably would have no idea how to track one in the first place. There's your wasted meat! Give thanks to the Great Spirit for a well-stocked grocery store, without one you wouldn't survive a week.
I agree with a lot of your comments. A lot of "Whitetail Management" is nothing more than an excuse to hunt baited deer.
In Habee's case for example: Raising cattle, they have feed and pasture. It will naturally attract deer. However if their neighbors are leaving lots of crops standing, specifically for the purpose of attracting deer. Additionally when they harvest the crops they typically do a sloppy job of it, intentionally. In other words leave lots of corn/beans on the ground. It hurts her farm/ranch. It hurts the overall deer population too, as the "management hunters" will NEVER hunt out all the weeker animals. As you know greater food sources translate into larger animal populations.
There are many "FARMS" that are simply fronts for hunting ranches. These animals can hardly be considered "WILD".
I would, for culling and hunting purposes. Hunting in Southern AFrica is a huge money spinner and creates many jobs that support local communities. I have never seen more animals on the land than now and the game is managed to have the optimum population, unlike humans where we have no control over population growth.
I support ethical hunting and hunt to enjoy the cameraderie of good friends and their families once a year....we do use the meat. I also shot competitively and get pleasure out of firing good shots. I and none of my hunting companions will let an animal suffer unnecessarily, which is more than one can say for abbatoirs.
I'd only do it for survival purposes (or if the deer was trying to kill me ;-P But who knows, maybe this has happened before...)
I'm not a hunter either.
One logical reason I've heard (but can't substantiate as I am neither a forest ranger nor a scientist/Ecologist) is that some animals are executed to maintain an eco-system. I'm guessing this is done because a larger population might exhaust one resource that would have damaging results on the whole?
A "logical" reason to hunt an animal, though I find distasteful, is for profit whether legally sanctioned or not. People hunt a desired product (pelts, antlers.) I don't like it but it happens.
We hunt and we eat the meat all year long. Its much cheaper than buying meat from the supermarket. One thing I really appreciate about having a hunting family is that I know that we will never starve. Even if there is some kind of crisis, I know that my family can provide. It is not easy to kill animals, but Nick is right about balancing the ecosystem. Deer carry a bacteria in their excrement that is fatal to other animals and if they are left to breed unchecked, they will eventually kill off other animals, like moose. Thats another reason to hunt.
Cool. Thanks for verifying that, Megs. I wasn't aware of the economical logic either. Even though I'm an animal rights activist, I think it's okay to hunt animals for practical reasons like physical/economic survival and maintaining an ecosystem. I just hope they don't suffer in the act, that it's instant.
Whoo! But I don't like to think about it! Ha ha :-P
Megs: I could do it if I needed to feed my family. Venison is delicious and almost fat free..it's good for ya.
That's the only reason I could do it tho.
Yeah they are, doesn't mean that deer shit isn't lethal though!
True. However, the same logic applies to turkey. They share the same habitat and food sources. Same applies to wild hogs.
I'm not a hunter, but if it came down to survival, I could hunt any game -- small or large. Basic animal instict would kick in to live. I won't hunt for sport or for fun. As for culling herds, it needs to be done because humans are the ones that have unbalanced the ecosystem -- over hunting, over development, destruction of natural habitat, rerouting or collapsing water supplies, chemicals that leech into the ground and eventually, into the ground water, deposit of waste in landfills as well as in the oceans and in space. We are destroying the ecosystem on this planet, but that is not enough as we begin to invade outerspace with our space junk.
I'd rather have the hunters kill a few deer then hit one with my vehicle. The deer like to run out in the road especially at night. Hunting does keep the population down.
Sadly that is what happens when humans move up and into original deer feeding grounds.
Their habitat changes,in some environments quite dramactically and unfortunately deer do not read or keep up with the lastest real estate locations and their poplace.
Unless someone or something were attacking my kids, other family members, or me; I'd pretty much rather die than kill anything (and I'd definitely rather die than eat something I killed).
What about...accidently killing a deer with your car. Take the meat, or leave it there cause "you don't need to kill for food."
I'm not trying to antagonize you. I'm just curious.
If you were isolated in the wilderness and had to provide food for your children or family members, would you hunt to do so?
Regarding the parentheses: Wouldn't it be better that the animal served a purpose? You could pray for its spirit if you felt guilty. I think that's what animists do.
Pray for it's spirit? I hope that is not your perception of Thanking the Great Spirit for the gift of food.
Why not? Doesn't your novel say all of the animals were for man's consumption except for a few of the so called unclean? Are you so sure animals do not have a soul like we human animals?
A word used in front of food, such as fried chicken, cornbread, turnip greens, etc. Dang, now I'm hungry!
Soul is yo lil peice of the creative force of the universe. Now, did I say GOD?
Everything is a piece of the creative force of the universe! Soul is word thought up by someone hoping death wasn't the end of awareness. So far, no one has ever found out if it is anything more than a notion!
Oh yes, christians and other religious cults like to think their souls will live on after death. I really can't think of any religion, past or present, which didn't include some sort of afterlife.
And in a sense, some of us do achieve a sort of life after death. Our genes live on in our children. And their children's children. An imaginary deity or mystical event is not required for this wonderful genetic record possessed by each of us animals.
Better urge Josh to procreate so you can spread some more of your genes around! Mine are spread pretty thin. lol
I'm with you Lisa. The exception would be if the family was starving. It is definitely a male occupation as most women would feel like us I'm sure.
I killed a pheasant with my car once and I took it home and cooked it rather than waste it. I felt bad that I had accidentally killed it but had no qualms about eating it.
I'm one who doesn't. When I was in better health, I loved hunting - deer, doves, ducks, squirrels, rabbits, and quail. All the meat was eaten, and these were animals that ate all year from our farm.
A few years ago there were so many deer in a certain state they had to be completely wiped out and the herds replenished. These poor animals were starving to death because of the competition for food. Most didn't weigh more than 30 or 40 pound when they should have been at least 100 or more.
These deer were not even fit to eat because they were so poor. Here the limit is 12 deer a season and the population increases every year. Almost everyone has either hit one with their vehicle or has had a very close call.
Occasionally, a large buck or doe will actually go through the windshield of a vehicle and kill the driver or one or more of the passengers. A 150+ pound animal struck at 50 or 60 miles per hour can do major damage. The deer may die a slow, painful death if not killed instantly. This is much worse than being shot by a hunter.
For those of you who could not kill a deer to keep you or your family from starving, you just haven't ever been hungry enough! I guarantee you!
If not for the hunters the situation would be much worse. You must understand what you are talking about before forming an opinion about hunters!
Good point about hunters v. car crashes.
I think people make an extreme judgment because they jump to conclusions, they may not admit it but their mind may believe that all hunting is done for sport.
There are practical, logical reasons as well.
I am a vegetarian because, among other things, I could never bring myself to take an animal's life. I'd always find something to eat to survive.
Until you find yourself without the luxury of such an option.
Nope, in the wild you would die for lack of salt and other minerals and calories needed for energy and for fighting scurvy and other diseases. Meat provides essential nutrients not provided by vegetables and fruits!
Just let Bambi come at me once with his antlers lowered. I'll show him.
Hunting is awesome! I don't get to do it as much as I like, but I love doing it. Deer tastes good, rabbit tastes good, squirrel tastes good. MMM MMM MMM
I do not think I could ever bring myself to kill a deer. And I think it is horrible to kill animals if you don't need them for food! I am not a vegetarian, but I think I would be if I had to kill the animals myself.
Donna, I agree that it's terrible to kill an animal just for "sport." All the deer hunters I know personally love venison, so the meat isn't wasted. I used to have a friend that loved hunting and always killed more deer than he and his family could eat, but he gave the rest of the deer meat to needy families.
Logical reason? I've had some incredible venison jerky in my life. I don't need logic.
Here in quebec, there are limits on our hunting and hunting permits and moose tags are quite expensive. One moose tag is not enough to kill a moose. you need 3 or maybe 4?. So in my family, we kill a maximum of 3 moose per year to be split among 3 different families. this year, we only killed one. I know there are poachers....they are everywhere, but generally, the laws here are stringent and as far as my family is concerned, we follow them.
I find it strange that people are so against hunting, when it was the original way of life. Hunter/gatherer...is any of this ringing a bell?
If some of those folks ever visited a slaughterhouse, I believe they'd re-think hunting!
The problem is that the original way of life is no longer sustainable. Can you imagine 6 billion + people trying to hunt for their food? Remember what almost happened to the buffalo?
I'm not saying everyone should start hunting, im just saying there is nothing cruel or unnatural about it. thats it.
That would be a problem, BUT...the bison were killed more for their hides and for sport by whites than they were for food by Native Americans. Also, killing the beasts was a top priority with the U.S. Army in an effort to starve the tribes of the Plains.
I was a Jr. herpetologist when I was a kid. I loved snakes.
I've handled many deadly ones.
In the USA, there is one way to positively identify poisonous snakes from others.
All poisonous snakes BUT THE CORAL SNAKE, have eliptical pupils.
Regarding the coral snake, just remember the old adage: " red and yellow kills a fellow...etc.."
If the red and yellow rings touch, it is a coal snake.
There is a coral king snake. It looks very much like the coral but the red and yellow rings are not next to each other. There are other ways to recognize them but the easiest is what I just said.
All snakes are "good" snakes!
They are cold blooded and sometimes crawl out on roads and hiways to warm up.
It pisses me of when ignorant people purposely run over them.
Your passion for snakes Qwark is to be respected,however I looked and called for you to remove said snake from the road I travelled ( in SC) and lo ,you did not answer.
Some things I am told not to stop for ,I figured a venomous creature was one of them
Aww, damnit! I'm so busy removing snakes that
I missed yer call!
I was under a house in Fla. removing a 20 ft Regal python that was digesting the owners toy poodle.
Just keep this in mind: the road is wide. Remember my love for my friend the snake and drive around it.
I'll sleep much better tonite after offering that suggestion. :-)
Yes. There have been times here that the deer were dying miserably even in the summer due to population spikes. Not so much now. We have so many coyotes now that there is literally no small game, and other predators are declining rapidly as well. So this year...we'll hunt coyotes rather than deer, tan their lovely hides and make gloves and hats and coats and vests and...
There's a lot of misconceptions going around for misunderstanding what's going on with hunting deer.
Hunting, like lumber industry, is extraordinarily important for the eco system. We as humans are pretty smart people, but also have the future in mind. The lumber industry vows to plant 2 trees for every 1 they cut down. They know that if they cut down all of the trees, there'd wouldn't be a lumber industry anymore.
Same thing, hunters know and understand that, if they simply killed everything off (e.g. buffalo), there would be nothing left to hunt. Mountain men, lumberjacks, hunters, these wilderness people have a very strong and dedicated relationship with the forest and the animals that live there. They do ten times more for the environment than environmentalists and have been for decades.
Teddy Roosevelt for example set up most of the known national landmarks and helped build up the areas and forests because he was a hunter.
There's also a very strong misconception of the near buffalo extinction versus deer hunting. Buffalo are incredibly easy to hunt: they move about on large plains in massive herds. If you have a horse and a gun (both common as a car would be today), just ride towards them and shoot the massive animals. Buffalo also reproduce a lot slower than deer.
On the other hand, deer when in great numbers are actually very destructive to a forest. But they also move in smaller groups and are more alert and much harder to hunt. They are hard game animals to take down and the challenge in itself is reason enough.
Deer are also part of the seasonal hunting time. You can't simply go off and kill deer. It's illegal and few hunters (or any wilderness people) would support it. Seasons for animals come into play when they are most plentiful.
Deer hunting is also aimed mainly at the large males. Females and young can take care fine. By taking out easiest males to hunt, you take out the weakest generation. Also, the ones with the biggest antlers are also the oldest, so no, hunters aren't shooting the youngest and most fit.
Personally, yes. It's not entirely encouraged even on my grandfather's private property in the mountains, but I could. I hunt small game like squirrels (because they're noisy when we camp out there), and a rabbit for eating. I'm sharpening myself as a shooter so that I have less hesitation and more strength in the emergency I need to kill a human being. Also the skills of hitting such a human being when the need arises.
I could not kill a deer and I do not eat what I would not be prepared to kill myself which means that although I eat fish I am otherwise a vegetarian.
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