Question on defining adult content - nudity in classical art

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  1. sockii profile image67
    sockiiposted 10 years ago

    I have one art tutorial which was fine on Squidoo for 3+ years, but I'm wondering if it will be acceptable on HubPages because it features classical painting artistic nudity.

    It is a tutorial based around reproducing an old master painting, by Titian, talking about the grisaille technique. The original painting is one on display in a museum (National Gallery of Scotland, Edinburgh) where children are allowed to view it alongside adults with no warnings, no screenings, etc.

    But I am worried that HubPages may not follow the same guidelines for educational/artistic nudity, even if the intent of my lens is art instruction and certainly not any prurient interests. So what are the limitations? Should I pre-emptively move this lens to my own art site or will it be allowed here (so I don't lose the connection with my other art tutorials previously published.)

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    1. Writer Fox profile image40
      Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      It will be OK to publish, but without AdSense ads.  So, turn those off and settle for Amazon products.

      This is not a Google AdSense policy, but HP's interpretation of Google AdSense policy.

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    2. KathyMcGraw2 profile image69
      KathyMcGraw2posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I would ask for a manual review.  We know very well how interpreting a filter can be, and someone else asked for a review on something and got the equivalent of a green light.

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      1. Jayne Lancer profile image81
        Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        +1

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      2. Writer Fox profile image40
        Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        That's cool if it doesn't pass QAP.  But, if she just turns off AdSense, it should pass QAP without a problem.  Lots of Hubs have pictures of such paintings (full frontal nudity by old masters, paintings hanging in museums all over the world).  It won't be a problem. I have a Hub like that and, yes, it was looked at by staff once and it got the official seal of approval.

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        1. Jayne Lancer profile image81
          Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          But what if ads are permitted? How will she ever know? Of course, there's a good chance they won't be, because it is nudity, but a manual review would be better in order to be absolutely sure. It's also classical art and educational. And even if the painting does feature nudity, it might not be showing any 'bits and pieces'--leg positions, strategically placed fabric etc.

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      3. relache profile image66
        relacheposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        This.

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        1. Jayne Lancer profile image81
          Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Absolutely.

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    3. Marina Lazarevic profile image82
      Marina Lazarevicposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      sockii, if you ever have a question about whether a Hub is in violation of HubPages' policy or ad safety requirements, you can do as many here have suggested and email us at team@hubpages.com for a manual review. That's really the best course of action.

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      1. sockii profile image67
        sockiiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        Thank you, I will do so! (Once I have taken care of basic transfer issues and getting it technically in a place I am comfortable with.)

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      2. gmwilliams profile image82
        gmwilliamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!

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  2. sockii profile image67
    sockiiposted 10 years ago

    Thanks for the comments so far. I'd be fine if I could just earn off of Amazon sales on the hub in question - that is where most of my art tutorials have mostly succeeded in the past, and it's the only one in this niche/series of mine that features a female nude.  I just didn't want there to be huge issues of including it in my portfolio. I haven't touched it yet since import since I was concerned on this issue, so I might just disable ads to be on the safe side with it. The original painting in question which I write about doing a reproduction of is this one:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Anad … 8Titian%29

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    1. Writer Fox profile image40
      Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      That pic will be fine on HP without AdSense.

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    2. neosurk profile image77
      neosurkposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I hope you got a reply from HP. But here's something I found interesting:

      "When in doubt about whether an image or text might be construed as adult content, our rule of thumb is this: if you wouldn’t want a child to see the content or if you would be embarrassed to view the page in front of colleagues, then it’s probably not family-safe and you shouldn’t place AdSense ad code on it. We appreciate your help in making the network a balanced ecosystem where users, publishers, and advertisers can grow and thrive together."

      So, I suppose it does not violate AdSense policy on adult content? This is from three years back: Policy Tips - Keeping the network family-safe

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      1. Paula Atwell profile image70
        Paula Atwellposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        I would guess that this case does not violate Adsense. But it is always best to err on the side of caution. smile

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  3. Paula Atwell profile image70
    Paula Atwellposted 10 years ago

    Isn't it nice that we can ask for a manual review and get one fairly rapidly?  smile

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    1. Ramkitten2000 profile image89
      Ramkitten2000posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Very!

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  4. makingamark profile image69
    makingamarkposted 10 years ago

    The thing which struck me is it really isn't necessary to use a nude to provide a tutorial around grisaille.

    Why not just have a rethink around the the subject matter used in the hub content?

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    1. Jayne Lancer profile image81
      Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Aren't you the one who was asking if it's possible to have a child friendly zone free of adult content? http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/124544 I can assure you, there is nothing smutty about Titian's Venus Anadyomene.

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      1. Writer Fox profile image40
        Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        Titian (Tiziano Vecelli) wasn't the only artist acclaimed for a Venice nude.

        The finest artists in the world have painted Venus in various forms of undress including Joshua Reynolds, Paris Bordone, Antonio Allegri da Correggio, Annibale Carracci,  Luca Cambiaso, Jan van Scorel, Giovanni Antonio Pellegrini, Lambert Sustris, Carlo Cignani, Diego Velázquez, Peter Paul Rubens, Lorenzo Lotto, Pierre Mignard, Lucas Cranach, Nicolò dell'Abate, Alessandro Allori, and – more recently – François Boucher, Solomon Joseph Solomon and William Etty.

        Even in prudish Victorian England, these works were never considered pornographic or something that children should not view.

        Every artist in the world with a degree in art (or art history or humanities) has studied these paintings and, yes, they are used in art tutorials about the artists. How could they not be?

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        1. Sed-me profile image79
          Sed-meposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          That's a lot of old, dead, naked ppl.

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          1. Writer Fox profile image40
            Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Actually, the artists probably were't naked while they painted (or were buried) – just Venice and her baby Cupid.

            There's a statue of Venice in the Vatican. It's there because that was the place of a temple to Venice, before the Vatican took it over and turned Venice into its Virgin Mary.

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        2. Jayne Lancer profile image81
          Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Why are you addressing me???

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          1. Writer Fox profile image40
            Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Because I agree with you that there is nothing smutty about that painting and that is the world's consensus, too!

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            1. Sed-me profile image79
              Sed-meposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              "the world" is a big word... unless "making a mark" is not of this world.

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              1. Writer Fox profile image40
                Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                You might be on to something.

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            2. Jayne Lancer profile image81
              Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              Let's hope Makingamark read it--she's the one who seems to have some learning to do.

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              1. Writer Fox profile image40
                Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                big_smile

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                1. KathyMcGraw2 profile image69
                  KathyMcGraw2posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  WF.....is there a reason you find a need to talk about MAM or say rude things?  This is the 2nd thread I have seen where there appears to be an issue.  Even if you say you are only joking, we are too new to know your personality and it doesn't go over well.  Just saying!

                  ***I quoted the wrong thing, but my message is the same.

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                  1. Writer Fox profile image40
                    Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    I didn't say anything rude.  Did you actually read this thread?  MAM was criticizing another Hubber for using a picture of a very famous and well-regarded painting on her Hub.  I'm not the only person who objected to the advice she gave.

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              2. Sed-me profile image79
                Sed-meposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                C'mon now. Ppl have a right to share their opinions.
                How do you know that hubber is a she?

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                1. Jayne Lancer profile image81
                  Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  You're right, and there's no way of telling.

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                  1. Sed-me profile image79
                    Sed-meposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    My first thought was that he/she was a male 'cause of the name... Making a Mark. But who knows. It's all so secretive in our little internet world.

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                  2. Writer Fox profile image40
                    Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    (A man wouldn't have objected to the painting???)

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              3. KathyMcGraw2 profile image69
                KathyMcGraw2posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Making a Mark is a very established writer and artist.  I really don't know why some of you are on her case like I've seen.  Joking around is one thing, but not at the expense of someone else, especially one that is new and  voices an opinion.

                If you guys aren't joking...then that's another story, one that will fragment people before they even get into the HP community.  Me, I am open minded to HP but would stand by Making a Mark any day as I know her track record.

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                1. Writer Fox profile image40
                  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  If you want to read really fabulous art tutorials and see the works of an exceptional artist (and writer), I suggest you look at the Hubs written by Sockii. Most of the posters on this thread agree with Sockii's position on what is appropriate to include in her art tutorials and disagree with MAM's advice.  If you consider that to be "on her case", then maybe this forum isn't the right place for her to comment on other people's work.

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                  1. KathyMcGraw2 profile image69
                    KathyMcGraw2posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    I know Sockii....and I know MAM.  Both are artists, and both are opinionated.  I have read other things by Sockii that interested me more than painting techniques.

                    All I'm saying is maybe you older members here don't realize how your playing, or whatever comes across.  If you re-read some of the comments you might see what I saw.

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                2. Jayne Lancer profile image81
                  Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Nobody here is being rude, but I think Makingamark is being very disrespectful towards the work of the OP. Please read this thread in its entirety before commenting!

                  On this thread I link to a thread by Makingamark from yesterday, and judging by that, can only assume she has a great deal of learning to do.

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                  1. Writer Fox profile image40
                    Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    +1

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                  2. KathyMcGraw2 profile image69
                    KathyMcGraw2posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    Jayne I did read it, everything in it including the 2 opinions of a) not placing ads and b) asking for a review.

                    I read MAM's comment to be one of offering another suggestion c) don't use the particular image.  Then the OP came back and explained the lens/hub is about a technique she learned while recreating that master.

                    And reading the back and forth of the other comments it seemed to me rude and what appears to be a total disrespect for someone many of us DO respect.

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      2. Marisa Wright profile image85
        Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        I didn't see MM saying it was smutty.   The OP has a problem - she can publish the Hub but she won't be able to make any money on it because the painting is nude.   If she can use a painting that isn't a nude, her problem goes away.  That's how I read it. 

        I agree that classical paintings aren't normally considered as adult content and anyone who thinks they're pornographic needs their head read.  Unfortunately whoever made the Adsense rules must have been one of the most prudish people on the planet.   I imagine a little old Victorian lady who probably goes around knocking statues' penises off with her umbrella...

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        1. Jayne Lancer profile image81
          Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          I'd have read it in the same way as you, Marisa, if I hadn't seen her thread of the previous day ( http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/124544 ), which rather led me to think of the little old Victorian lady who probably goes around knocking statues' penises off with her brolly--oh my gosh; we've said 'penises'.

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    2. sockii profile image67
      sockiiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Um, because it's a tutorial based around a painting I actually did, using the technique, which took me about 3-4 months to complete start to finish? Not something I can just whip out again at the drop of the hat, building from scratch.  I wasn't looking to create the be-all end-all page on grisaille but to illustrate the methods I used for one particular work.

      I have built my most successful Squidoo niche around oil painting tutorials of old master techniques, written as I was actively painting certain works - my work stands as the proof and examples of the techniques described. Grisaille is not my preferred method (I generally use verdacchio) so I'm not going to go through all of that again just for one tutorial. I'd rather just disable ads on this one page and allow it to stand as part of my general collection of art articles.

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  5. Sed-me profile image79
    Sed-meposted 10 years ago

    It's so funny how that one little word "um," when used at the beginning of a sentence, speaks volumes. lol

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  6. makingamark profile image69
    makingamarkposted 10 years ago

    Thanks for your subsequent explanation Sockii. Your comment makes complete sense to me of the approach you propose to take and sounds very sensible.  I hadn't seen your lens/hub and consequently didn't realise that you really wanted to use this particular example because of the amount of work you'd done on that particular painting - and hence material you already had for explanations of how grisaille works.

    Thank you Kathy and Marisa for your comments.

    What follows is the gist of a comment I will be sending to the HubPages Team with respect to this thread.

    As Kathy and I both know from posts in other places, there are a lot of very new hubbers (i.e ex lensmasters) who are stating very clearly that they won't venture into the HubPages Forums because of the harassment of some ex-lensmasters and the "poisonous atmosphere" it creates. Their words not mine. Just saying.

    It seems kind of ironic and really disappointing that:

    1) ex-lensmasters can't post in a forum dedicated to their needs because they are frightened of the treatment they might get. That really is very sad.  It's very kind and really constructive of HP creating this forum for us to ask our questions. It's so disappointing that what could be a very positive contribution towards people making a good start in HubPages should be damaged in this way.

    2) It's also very sad that two people who have known each other and talked on a regular basis for years in other places can't have a conversation in this particular forum in a civilised way without interventions by others introducing notions which are not and were not part of their conversation.

    3) the behaviour exhibited by some in the forums towards new people is in such complete and very marked contrast to that displayed by HubPages management and staff which has at all times been very civilised, very friendly and very helpful.

    4) Outside of HubPages  I have come across threads and read comments warning people away from entering the HubPages Forums based on some of the comments read and forum behaviour/moderation. From personal experience I can well understand why people are making these comments. My experience to date has been one of being stalked and harassed.

    Ex lensmasters are wondering when and if the moderation of this forum will be strengthened with respect to the rule which states "personal attacks, hate speech, petty bickering, trolling, and thread hijacking are not tolerated.".

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  7. Mark Ewbie profile image59
    Mark Ewbieposted 10 years ago

    If they take petty bickering out that is most of my posts gone.

    Agree with the other rules obviously.

    I do remember my last ban which lead directly to a period of deep personal remorse.  When I discussed it with my pastoral adviser he reminded me of the occasion when I was thrown out of Walmart for indecency with a pack of tomatoes.  On that occasion the ban was deserved.

    I only mention this because he had a picture of the Venus de Milo on his wall.

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    1. Writer Fox profile image40
      Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I remember that adviser, the one who got banned from the Squidoo forum. So don't feel bad. On HP it's called an 'inflatable shark moment.'

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    2. Jayne Lancer profile image81
      Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Haha. smile

      replyreport
    3. Paula Atwell profile image70
      Paula Atwellposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Mark, you are one of a kind and I am so glad to see that you won an award for your stick people. smile

      replyreport
  8. profile image0
    bobtyndallposted 10 years ago

    ha ha ha

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  9. Jayne Lancer profile image81
    Jayne Lancerposted 10 years ago

    I posted two of these links on the other thread I've mentioned, but I think they might be helpful here, too. They're certainly interesting. The thread, which concerns a hub about gay butterflies on which ads were disabled, is two years old, but HubPages' and Google's stance on the matter of 'sensitive content' doesn't seem to have changed.

    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/98806#post2113267

    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/98806#post2113286

    For anybody who doesn't know Jason Menayan, he was a staff member at the time of the thread.

    And this is HubPages' ruling on adult content: http://hubpages.com/faq/#adult_topics

    But, of course, nudity featured in classical paintings can't possibly be considered 'adult' or 'sensitive' content. Normally. It's a question of how Google's advertisers might view it.

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  10. FanfrelucheHubs profile image77
    FanfrelucheHubsposted 10 years ago

    So many rude people here, do they get awards for that? like the monster points on squidoo??

    replyreport
    1. HomeArtist profile image61
      HomeArtistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I noticed the same, too but it appears the rudeness is related to a select few. Nonetheless, I'm a bit gun shy about using the forums, now. hmm

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      1. SmartAndFun profile image98
        SmartAndFunposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        I'm sorry to see this happening. When I first started here, everyone was helpful to me, and I really appreciated it. It would be nice if Squidoo transplants received the same opportunity to learn from pleasant, helpful people.

        The religion and politics forums can get awful, of course, but the section titled "Getting Help from the HubPages Community" doesn't have to be that way.

        A couple of weeks ago the forums were flat and almost unused. The squids come over, and suddenly a few Hubbers start showing up all over the "get help" forum with their claws out. What is up with that? Does it make them feel powerful? Do they feel threatened? I have no idea.

        At any rate, my apologies to the Squubbers. Hang in there and things will get easier.

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  11. Amber Sluiter profile image60
    Amber Sluiterposted 10 years ago

    It is definitely quite appalling to see the negativity coming from the regular Hubbers. They should be ashamed of themselves.

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  12. Marketing Merit profile image83
    Marketing Meritposted 10 years ago

    I had ads disabled on a hub that showed a public domain image of a Gil Elvgren sketch. I thought it was a lovely picture and the only nudity was a profile of a woman's breast. Nonetheless, HP moderators didn't agree.
    Personally, I think they are over-sensitive about such things. However, it's always a risk you take when you publish on a third party site.

    replyreport
  13. jodijoyous profile image60
    jodijoyousposted 10 years ago

    Sockii, ask them to review it. I did for one of mine and got a reply in a few hours saying the ads had been reinstated.

    replyreport
    1. Jayne Lancer profile image81
      Jayne Lancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      That's always the best course of action in such a situation, as Marina Lazarevic confirms on page one of this thread: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/124556#post2633418

      replyreport
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