What would it take for you to believe in Jesus?
His teachings told those who listened to not worship any false idol, either god or man.
I'm a Christian, so my faith is for Jesus (like the Muslims for Allah & Mohammed, and other religious faith, too). It goes to show that there is a Supreme Being that is guiding us everyday. Thanks, Steve.
G'mornin' Steve:
Thanks for asking. That's an easy one.
There are 2 definitions of "faith."
1. Confident belief in the TRUTH, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. i.e. the sun will rise in the east and set in the west. (empirically proved)
2. Belief that does not rest on LOGICAL PROOF OR MATERIAL EVIDENCE. i.e. religious belief based soley on hope and conjecture.
I just made a hot pot of coffee. I'm gonna have a cup and get this gorgeous day goin'.
Have a good'n.
:
QwarkHope you enjoyed your mornin' brew...I know I sure thank God for my 2 cups that turned my brain back on...this morning
have a guu'd un, my friend!Steve,Hi:
I didn't make that coffee for you! Why are ya thankin' me?:
...but I do make good coffee!
Qwark:Manly...lol
Well golly gee! I think there's just about the same amount of
"possibility" of me being this "god thing" as there is of the "thing" you think of as being a "god thing." Right?
Now don't ask me to make ya a cuppa coffee!
I got "free will" and it tells me I ain't yer danged slave!
Is that "crystal" clear?:
Qwark
I'll have a go quark
man evolved, man is dominant because he works in groups
man evolved to work in groups then.
to control a group you need intelligence, and to know what all the group are doing, you would need something within all the group members, to be ever present, a spiritual guide, a group consciousness
or should we call it God?
better explained in 'a logical look at religion'"AAAAANNNNGGGGGGHHHHHH - "X" - Wrong Answer" But...Thanks for playin'...
I guess !?Hi Arg:
Ya didn't answer my question.
You mentioned "spirit"again: "...consciousness would guide the spirit"
I don't know what you are referring to.
"Spirit," are you using it in a metaphysical sense?
Or are you using the term to express feelings i.e. our spirits were lifted?"
If you can't explain your use of it, why in the world would you use it to try to explain a concept?
Qwark:
Jeff:
My goodness! That was a long response which didn't answer the most important aspect of my question I.e. What is this god thing you mention?
Your bible doesn't even answer it except in the form of "opinion."
If you can't offer anything but opinion in ref to your religious beliefs, why could you/would you think that what you offer is credible?
I've been where you are now. I've lived with the same beliefs.
I was fortunate to be able to enlighten myself with continuing education and save myself from wallowing in and sinking deeper into the assininity of cult activity and belief.
Thanks for trying.:
Qwark
Interesting that at seven years old, most kids are playing with cars and dolls, need a nightlight at bedtime, are starting to schedule routines and are unable to fathom many simple and complex concepts.
Yet, you are trying to convince us that at seven, you were able to comprehend the Christian religion?
Puuulllleeeezzze!Yes, I know, it's called religious childhood indoctrination. At seven years old, it's obvious it was not your choice to make, but it was a choice made for you.
It's obvious you were indoctrinated. Seven year olds are not able to synthesize such complex concepts as religion.
Your parents made the choice for you when they indoctrinated you into the Christian belief system.Yes, I know, a seven year old could not comprehend the choice to make.
Not at all, the fact that your parents indoctrinated you into their religion is very common amongst the vast majority of believers, in many other religions, too. Your parents are probably very nice, but were most likely indoctrinated themselves, and their parents, and so on...
While I sympathize with your position, few if any believers will ever admit they were indoctrinated or didn't make the choice themselves, until they eventually break the indoctrination and begin thinking for themselves.
And of course, to make such a choice at the age of seven would mean you actually spent the time researching the other religions and came to the conclusion to choose the one you did. Of course, we both know you never did such research.
It would be dishonest to me and to yourself if you brought forth such an argument as it is the same argument employed by believers who claim to have seen bigfoot, or the loch ness, or a leprechaun.
This is something you would have understood clearly if you knew something about science. When learning those facts and figures, one must conduct their own experiments, ones they can think up themselves as in based on a thesis, or ones that have already been conducted before. Hence, one can easily observe the experiment and see for ourselves the exact same results and come to exactly the same conclusions.
For example, I can understand the duality of light by conducting the two-slit experiment. I can see the results of how the light showed as a particle and as a wave.
Do you understand now?
Good for you Dian and never let anyone steal away your joy
No one.Hi kiwi, The joy of the Lord is our strength.
Unfortunately, the jaded skeptic in me would need plenty of absolute proof. Especially after seeing Criss Angel, the mind freak. Impersonating the son of God is a pretty lucrative scheme.
And of course I'd want to see his birth certificate--it better say Bethlehem.- Home Girlposted 13 years ago
0 I hear and read this all the time from believers who are never able to explain this so-called logic.
Hey Manly:
Pls answer this: How can one equate a belief in this "god thing as being "logical?"
On the "reality" continuum, this "god thing" exists at one end and "logic" on the other end!
Be specific now with your response! We don't want just another fancy tapdance around the barn trite religious response.
Go for it m'man!
Qwark:Gee Manly:
All I did was ask a simple question and ya got all emotional on me! I must hit a sore spot.?
Dadgummit! I don't think, nope, I know I didn't ask for proofs of anything? Where'd ya come up with that'n?
Use the word "relationship" for the word "religion?"
How in the world do they "sync?" Ya gotta explain that'n to me.
Oh, and what is this thing you mentioned? this "god thing" that you waved a wand at and asked me if "it" appeared? What the heck is this "god thing" anyway!
"Logic" has everything to do with enjoying all of Mother Natures wonders. I was created a conscious (aware) creature with 5 senses. When my "Mom" stimultes all of them, I respond, logically to all of them...some autonomically! I just can't help myself! It's just this evolved organism doing what comes naturally and logically. It's wonderful! Part and parcel of the great pleasure of being alive and me.
Are we chatting now?:
Qwarkdad bern it, QWARK! What we have here...is a failure to communicate...
Sure...you hit a sore spot...what part of my answer...didn't tell ya' that!? How do I explain the difference between "religion" and 'relationship"...Oh brother...
I can't get past it with out an encyclopedia volume of my own personal experiences, things I learned personally, things I learned while sitting in a church pew, Thanks I learned by a deserted beach or overlooking a quiet valley somewhere, things I learned while in devotion, or on my knees praying...I can't explain something so big properly...and that's a big topic...and I'm busy! Let's just go with "relationship" instead of 'religion"...it would make me so very happy...P-LLLEEEAAASSSEEEE?
Geez...I go to so much trouble to write in a visual example about how God doesn't deal in the "logic' need that we have to have an answer for our way of thinking...and it sails right over ya'...really...ya' didn't get it? And it was so humorous, too! God ain't holding a classroom discussion on reality thinking and proof...as far as I have heard. (That would be my second attempt at same said visual example.) But...just let that one sail on by, too...!
What does Qwark mean...by the way?Hey Manly:
: WEll dangbern it Manly, why don'tcha have that same encyclopedia in your mind that caused you to make me question you? Ya'd think that if ya had it all "up there" ya'd be able to explain what'cha mean when ya write sumthin. Make sense?
I question everything. Been doin' it all my life. Input makes me a happy "hubber.":
OK, ok..."relationship." I wanna make you a happy "hubber.": I must ask you this tho: "Relationship with what?" What are ya praying to?
If you say "god," you know what my next question'll be eh? what the heck is this "god thing" ya mentioned. Just a figment of your fertile imagination? if not, what? Pls manly no dime-a-dozen-opinions...ok?
Qwark is a "euphemism" for the word "quark." I don't have to define quark for ya do I? Good!
Yer hangin' in there m'friend...:-)
I'm hoping you can enlighten me. No luck yet.
Qwark:
Qwark,
You are being too "pedantic". You always want to understand the insignificant details of everything.
Can you please wake out of your delusional spell for once and get a grip on reality?
A "real" person (and I'm not sure if that includes you), will ALWAYS believe what others tell him without questioning anything. He said "spirit". We all know what spirit means. There is nothing to question. Definitions and explanations are for the mentally disturbed.Hey Fat:
Lol...but I'm having so much fun!:
I'm mentally disturbed and I need another shot of "spirits."
give me 2 shots of good cognac on-the-rocks!
Qwark :-)
I'm heading for the gym...tty'all later...:
Lol...I just re-read this: "A "real" person (and I'm not sure if that includes you), will ALWAYS believe what others tell him without questioning anything.":
For sure! I'm not a "real" person
Real ? No. Deluded - Yes
- AKA Winstonposted 13 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 13 years ago0
This is a perfect example of why the concept of fallacies needs to be understood before making such claims.
For example:
Every bird has wings.
Wings allow flight to occur.
Therefore, all birds fly.
Further to understanding fallacies is the concept of doing research so as to not having to fabricate stories in order to support the fallacies.
While it is certain that people will undergo a variety of health issues that seemingly appear they will not abate, can indeed go into remission for any number of reasons.
And, while those ailments do in fact go into remission for any number of reasons, one is no to suspect an invisible magical being had anything to do with it, especially when many other physical answers are far more likely.
Fabrications of stories with no substance not only tends to destroy credibility, but also tends to confirm the motives behind the believer and their beliefs.
- china manposted 13 years ago0
It would take more than anyone in this thread can muster - now if you all went over tho the Katrina thread and supported Junko - I might just consider, a little, looking at you in a better light
- just_curiousposted 13 years ago0
He advocated the fact that He was the perfect Son of God, come to earth in human form as a savior and messiah, called the Son of man in the book of Daniel, to save all of those who love God because those who love God would love and follow Him and would be saved.
Matthew 20:28
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
~Jesus
John 8:42
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
~Jesus
And Jesus DID NOT say search within yourself. He said:
Matthew 6:33
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
~Jesus
He said to search for God and His kingdom.
John 5:40
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
~JesusOh my gosh. We disagree on interpretation, essence and meaning of the message of Jesus. How did I I miss the memo? Lord have mercy, I feel like a mushroom sometimes.
If His reason wasn't to come to save then why the "...give his life a ransom for many." ?
I really don't understand how this could be misinterpreted.
He died to save us from our sins.
He said He was going to give His life a ransom(defined: deliverance: the act of saving somebody from an oppressed condition or dangerous situation through self-sacrifice) for many.
Anyway..
I do believe Matthew (called Levi by Mark and Luke, because he was from the tribe of Levi) was one of the twelve apostles wasn't he..
I'm no scholar, but I've done plenty of research and never heard different.I do believe we have talk before about my education in religion, so I am not going to argue the point. It is a lost cause. If you are so inclined, here are two free courses offered by Yale University. One is the Old and the Other is on the New Testament.
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies
Enjoy.
Oh, that...First of all my statement is a reply to the one who started this thread, which I think is not an atheist. Second, I think I might be wrong in stating such statement, how wrong of me to ignore that there are some atheist here...so sorry.
About the proof, I really don't want to start an argument (I am not an apologist), but I'll just give an "opinion" about some proof that may suggest that there is a supreme being...
"Perfection, the world is perfectly made (of course deduct the humans)," I can't believe that everything was randomly put into place...it's too perfect"
Just my opinion, don't want to argue
If you argue, I will raise a white flag againAh - semantics. I thought you understood what I was saying. Apparently not. Don't understand what "proof" means either. Oh well.
Jesus said an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign (your "majik"....). He also said they would not get one.
Matthew 16:4No "majick" or further miracles.. The point of the post you replied to. Jesus meant they already have signs given. Not to be given... Already have been given.
Thanks for posting the verse and validating.I did not directly quote the Bible. I paraphrased and gave the reference underneath. I also corrected my posted prior to you posting your reply, notice the difference from your quote.
He was telling them they don't get anything but what they already discredit and don't believe. If they can't believe that then they are out of luck..
Would you like to ask Mark if he believes Jonah and the whale is true?
Because Jesus was telling Mark and everyone else that they will get nothing else.
THAT was my point.
And I didn't cut anything out of the Bible. Please refer to all the posts in the forums where I directly quoted the Bible and notice the difference.
"He also said they would not get one." Being in there should have indicated to you that it was not a direct quotation as those are my words.
My quotations also have the numbers of the verses next to each verse.I wasn't offended, I do tend to emphasize things more when misunderstood though.
I usually do use full verses, and the context if it applies to the subject.
I seen no need to here as Mark doesn't care whether I'm right or not. I simply referenced to keep people from calling me a liar, as they often attempt with very, very earnest efforts to catch me doing because I am a Christian.
And there is a difference in the interpretation of the Bible between a man who loves God with all his heart, soul, and mind and one who doesn't even believe God exists. I seek God's will. They seek their own and that of man.
Not only, but the Holy Spirit is a guide to every saved person who has accepted Christ. It is amazing to me sometimes the understanding I can have of things that baffled me before I was truly saved. I used to claim Jesus, and I loved the idea.. But I wasn't actually saved. I was just filling the shoes.
Then again, you have to live it to believe it. No man can be convinced through logic. (I know, I'm guilty of trying) A man has to search for God himself to be found by God.
Don't you actually mean that the belief comes from the brain and not the heart? Doesn't the heart just pump blood?
But, if such a guy did appear on Oprah and did hand out iPads with the bible on it, and did claim to be Jesus, you would swallow it up hook, line and sinker?Jesus said not to believe anyone if they claimed to be Him. He said you would certainly know..
He's not coming back all nice and humble. That part of the deal is over.
The next time He comes it will be to execute judgment...Well then, as you say, we will "certainly know" it's Jesus coming to "execute judgment" on us all when that day arrives, and he will NOT be "nice and humble" which is what we've grown to expect from Christian beliefs.
But the question still remains, will he do the Oprah show?You've come accustom to many incorrect assumptions. Reading Matthew 24 should clear some of those up.
I do believe the answer to your reposted question also rests within the reading I suggested.Yes, and here are my favorite verses from that, love the part of the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Hilarious.
"48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Geeez. You guys don't think much of your god's abilities. If there were a god don't you think he could make any of us see anything? Make us just know it is he, like we know our own mother and father? lol.. You have such little faith.
I'm an atheist and even I know that if I met Jesus I"d know it.
He must be a very poor excuse for a god if he can't make us understand and needs you guys to spread the word. Or more likely, he doesn't exist except in your minds.I think your post expresses just how ridiculous the pride of man makes him look.
Blaming your inability to understand on God.
It's not the lack of comprehension that renders people unable to see and understand. It's their cockiness and arrogance.So stop being cocky and arrogant.
I have no inability to know god. You are the ones telling us we can't comprehend him. Oh but you can!. lol.... You are the ones limiting the power of your all mighty god, not me.
You are making excuses for the fact that your god never shows up in reality, only in your minds. And then tell us we just don't understand and can't and won't because we are atheists and incapable of understanding.
And if the Emperor came out naked and they told you you were too stupid to see his clothes, I"m sure you would see them, because you don't want to be stupid. lol...
But of course you would just gullible instead.
On the other hand I know that if there were a real god and he wanted me and the rest of the world to know him, he wouldn't need you to tell me! I'd just know.
So until god pops his head out of the clouds and says high, you can not know he exists and telling us he does is a lie. You are lying to your self and to us.
You might believe it to be true. You make enough excuses for his absence. But you don't know it is a fact. You just have faith that it is a fact and that's not the same thing. So stop being arrogant and cocky and stop lying."You are the ones telling us we can't comprehend him."
"He must be a very poor excuse for a god if he can't make us understand..."
You're contradicting yourself. I don't argue with confusion.
I didn't state anything about your personal ability or state of mind. I said that YOU said He couldn't make you understand, as you included yourself with the word "us".
Please stop blatantly, outright accusing me. It's quite disrespectful and has no base."You are the ones saying if he showed up we would not accept him."
Here we go again with false information. Please quote and state what thread it is from that I said any such thing.
I told Beelzebub right up there the exact opposite.
And this:
"and stop lying."
Is a direct accusation and states I'm doing something I most certainly am not.
Telling everyone I am a liar is not philosophical nor is it discussing anything. It is a remark by you applying a negative characteristic to my name on these forums.
I am not taking it personally. I just want the truth told.Really? It looked more like an astute observation bearing logical consistency with a "head popping god" prediction. I liked it.
Well if you aren't taking it personally why keep mentioning it? Look. This is how it all started:
"I think your post expresses just how ridiculous the pride of man makes him look. Blaming your inability to understand on God. It's not the lack of comprehension that renders people unable to see and understand. It's their cockiness and arrogance."
Your words, no? And I said: "You are the ones telling us we can't comprehend him" Do you see how those two ideas follow? I said it should be no problem to recognize an almighty god and that you guys don't give it enough credit. You seem to lack faith it could convince anyone that he is god.
You implied my statement was cocky and arrogant, and that's why I can't comprehend him. Or as your Druid friend says: '' There are those who can't see, simply because they are willful, stubborn. Wearing blinders."
So what have I said that has you confused? Christians tell us all the time that we simply can't know god because we refuse to. I"m telling you that if your god wanted anyone to know it existed, it would be able to convince anyone no matter what their prejudices. It wouldn't need Christians to spread its word.
The reason you have to do it is because it probably doesn't exist.
The other thing I said was that if you claim god does exist as a fact, you are not telling the truth because you CAN"T know that.
Now how many times have you told people that god is real?
So yes I am having a philosophical and moral discussion with you. Do you think it is moral to lie? Of course you don't. Yet if you claim to know with certainty that a god exists you are lying. Same as if I said I knew with certainty that it doesn't.
I'm not insulting you. I'm pointing out something you may never have thought of.
So what do you think? Is it really logical that god would need to use people to tell other people it exists? To me it ain't logical. Not your god. Not an omnipotent all mighty god. He wouldn't need any of you to spread his word. The idea is lunacy.
Think about it.
I believe they will kneel. But I don't believe in that getting out of Hell stuff.
Christ said everlasting enough times to convince me. And I've studied the meanings in greek.. Yes.. It means everlasting just like it says.
When Christ Jesus says something, I take it seriously. Especially when it's a very emphasized subject of His teachings. And I don't change definitions of words that He repeated.
I've also been over this issue in other threads. I'm just telling you where I stand and the reason for it. I'm gone after this post..
Have a good one Druid..So it is moral and logical and mercy full and loving to torment people in hell forever because they don't believe your god exists?
Are you serious? Don't you see how crazy and twisted and insane that sounds? Sounds like you worship an egomaniac tyrant who wants every one to love him.
Are you sure you aren't worshiping satan? Sounds like it to me. lol... He's a crafty one, eh? I think all of Christianity worships satan and doesn't know it. Boy, wouldn't that be the kicker? lol......
- Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago0
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