Debate and argue on religion and the existence of God

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  1. profile image0
    TMDHemsley17posted 11 years ago

    This forum is for anyone here who wishes to debate on the subject of religion and religious beliefs. Outline your position, whether it be theist or atheist, explain why you hold that position, and then people can debate against you. This forum is not meant to polarize or antagonize people, simply to let people argue and debate, which you might argue is pointless as people are unlikely to change their minds, but it's always good to argue on this subject, which is still relevant and controversial in today's society.

    The main points to be debated should be regarding the existence of God and supernatural phenomenon, religious beliefs, and the effect of religion on society. Please don't comment on this forum if you're not intending to debate, don't simply have a go at people (something I'm guilty of sometimes), but read peoples points and arguments and argue against them.

    So to start off, I'll give my view. I'm an atheist and an anti-theist, which is someone who is opposed to the belief in God. I say opposed because I believe that belief in God creates hate, prejudice, and conflict among people, and I am relieved that there is no evidence for God. I believe that religious beliefs are false and contradictory, making no rational or logical sense as they conflict with science and reason, and I believe religious beliefs and organised religions are oppressive and dangerous to society.

    I look forward to debating and seeing what people have to say.

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    1. Don W profile image83
      Don Wposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Do you mean god, God, or deities in general? Define your terms man.



      No, you are relieved that there is no categorical evidence for god. There are plenty of people on this forum who can and will present 'evidence' both for and against. The issue is that none of it is categorical.


      Religious beliefs, or religious belief per se. If the former, then which ones specifically? Some examples would be helpful.


      Why would you be interested in logic in this context? What bearing does that have on whether something is true or not?


      Did you mean to generalise or was that an oversight? Perhaps you meant 'some religious beliefs', or 'many religious beliefs' or even 'most religious beliefs'. Without such a qualifier, what you've written suggests you have an expert knowledge of every single religious belief and religious organisation on the planet. In fact that's the only way you could legitimately make such a statement. I don't mean to jump to conclusions, but I'm not entirely sure that's the case.

      Clarity on some of these points would help any sensible discussion that might be had.

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    2. Ceegen profile image68
      Ceegenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I believe in the God of the bible.

      However harsh God was with our ancestors from what we can see in the "Old Testament", where the punishment of sin is death... We see in the "New Testament" the forgiveness of sins in the man known as Jesus, is a beautiful story of what it truly means to love another.

      "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." - John 15:13 (KJV).

      Jesus fulfilled "The Law", and that might not make sense now, but the more you see the forgiveness of God, rather than the punishment of sins, you rethink who God is. Well, it might anyway. It did for me at least.

      He isn't some distant relative, or a dead-bead dad. He'll interact with you if you want, but you gotta want to. Are we really so prideful to say to God that we don't need Him in our life?

      "If only we had a little more money, or just a little more time in life! We could accomplish so much!"

      But is it for ourselves that we want these things, or in service to God?

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      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
        Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        To love God is to have Faith in the existence of God. To believe in the existence of God is to somehow be completely convinced that He exists.  It is not a matter of indoctrination at that point and is Far From Harmful, TM Hemsley!
        Thank You, Ceegen for your timely post! Your Love of God has restored my Faith in the miracle of Life Itself, which God made. Who cares what any nonbeliever thinks! They can wallow in in their self- imposed exile from Reality. I do respectfully bid adieu.

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        1. Ceegen profile image68
          Ceegenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          "Who cares what any nonbeliever thinks!"

          I care what the non-believer thinks. I also care what "believers" think, too. I've been told that I am "socially awkward" because of that, and I don't make a whole lot of friends.

          I am here to win souls to Jesus Christ, not flaunt my salvation in such a self-righteous manner, that people are driven away from God because of such behavior. You can praise me all you want, but I will do no such thing for you. You need to take a good look in the mirror, and wonder where all this impatience and anger comes from. I'm pretty sure you weren't the product of a virgin birth, so I would venture to say that you should probably just forgive and love, move on, get over it. You're still traveling on the road and very far from the outer gates. Don't get complacent.

          We are told to love everyone (even our perceived enemies) by Jesus, because the whole of The Law is based on love. Yeah, as a Christian people will hate you because of it. But Jesus told us that would happen, so you shouldn't be surprised when someone actually does something that makes you angry.

          God bless.

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          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You sound grumpy. Thats why you don't have any friends.  The people here will eat you up alive.... have fun.

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            1. Ceegen profile image68
              Ceegenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Way to try and turn it around on me, because I call you out on your BS. See how fast you went from flattery to condemnation?

              Don't let pride get the best of you!

              God bless.

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              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
                Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You do not sound the least bit friendly . Good Bye.

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                1. Ceegen profile image68
                  Ceegenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Last word! Nyah-nyah!

                  Look, not everyone on the internet uses heavy doses of sarcasm. Sure, it happens a lot, but I'm being as sincere as I can. All I can do is pray that you'll be nice, because I can't make you be nice.

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                  1. A Troubled Man profile image58
                    A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Notice that your mission to "love everyone" failed miserably even with another believer who follows the very same religion?

                    lol

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  2. profile image0
    Emile Rposted 11 years ago

    I am curious about a couple of things. You label yourself an anti theist. Isn't choosing such a label a way to create conflict among people? Doesn't being 'anti' anything imply a degree of hatred? Aren't you prejudiced against theists by your stand? Do you suffer any level of angst over the hypocrisy of the choice of a name and why you chose it?

    Whether you see evidence of God is not really the point. If others do, and they resolve their beliefs with scientific facts, how is that oppressive to others? I see a level of attempted oppression by atheists when they insist that believers accept the atheist's beliefs. You can't prove or disprove god, so how do you resolve this problem? Who has the right to oppress whom?

    Please explain how religious organizations are oppressive to society in the Western world, and with a secular government firmly in place. Don't get me wrong. I have no love of the religious right, however I am not aware that I am oppressed at the moment.

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    1. profile image0
      TMDHemsley17posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Prejudice is a preconceived judgement towards someone. My opposition is not preconceived, as I haven't just suddenly decided I hate all religion based on some insignificant idea. I have meticulously thought out religion and God, and have come to the conclusion it is false and indeed bad. Choosing my label does create conflict between me and the theist, but I believe that religion should be confronted and questioned because of the problems it creates. The alternative is to sit back and do nothing, allowing religious dogma to continue to curb science and cause violence and prejudice.

      I should state that my problem isn't religious beliefs per se, but when they are forced upon others. Some people may resolve their beliefs with scientific facts, but not all religious people do. You get the intelligent design community trying to open creationist schools or religious groups forcing there dogma on government policy. Religious beliefs should stay completely private and have no role in government, business, or any other institution. To say you can't prove or disprove god is an evasive position, the concept of God is a hypothesis like any other, which like any belief, evidence should be provided to justify that belief, and on the subject of disproving God, it's not up to the atheist to disprove, but up to the theist to explain why they believe in God.

      I'm not just talking about the western world, I'm talking of the world in general. Some middle eastern countries have religious governments that stone women for adultery, curb freedom of speech and expression, execute people for homosexuality, among others. Even in western society, the Catholic Church espouses that homosexuality is a sin, the late evangelical fundamentalist pastor Jerry Falwell demonstrated you could spread hatred for different groups on television is you had reverend in front of your name. I'm not sure what country your referring to when you say secular, the US nor the UK have secular governments. I''m from the UK, and it may not be a religious government, it is not secular. You yourself may not be oppressed by religion, I myself am not in any direct sense, but you need to look at other places in the world and how religion influences society.

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      1. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Ahh. So, you have meticulously thought it out. Bully for you. I suppose you think your conclusions are the only valid ones? What of the religious? Is it your argument that they don't think?

        This is the primary problem I have with atheists. The theist believes he is spiritually superior. The atheist thinks he is intellectually superior. Neither side gives the other the benefit of respect or doubt. You are, as has been pointed out, two sides to the same coin. You both have a need to push your beliefs as the only valid ones. You both insist that the worst that the other side has to offer is the norm, when the truth is there are an infinite number of way stations in between.

        You say the alternative is to do nothing, but that is not the alternative. In my opinion. The alternative is to stand firmly in the camp of tolerance. However, neither the theist or atheist understands the term. You want to lock horns instead.

        Religious beliefs should be left out of the arena of government. But we have something we call freedom of speech and we enjoy exercising our rights. You are welcome not to listen, but if you insist that people not speak, where do you think that will end? I hate whistlers. If I become anti whistling would I have the right to stop the noise? No. I have the right to move out of ear shot.

        If people want to start private schools and teach them that penguins built the world, parents have the freedom to send their kids there. Our public education system is a different story and I haven't seen that textbooks teaching evolution have been shelved.

        As to other countries, I will say that we have an obligation to care. But, they have sovereignty and I haven't seen any efforts, in our lifetime, as having been appreciated by the massess. We can't force them to agree with us. They will have to find their way into the modern world in their own time. You can't put a ring through the nose of everyone who disagrees and drag them along.

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      2. Disappearinghead profile image61
        Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I'm sorry but since when we're you oppressed by religion in the UK? Since when did religion cause you or your friends, family, colleagues any problems? Since when were religious ideas forced upon you? Who put you in some position of authority that you think all religion should be kept private? Since when should anyone with religious beliefs have to justify themselves to you? Since when did they have to present to you evidence for God?

        So after some deep thought you decided that all religion is bad. Lovely. You have obviously never studied British history and seen how great philanthropists motivated by their deep religious convictions changed our society for the good of the poor, championed the rights of the downtrodden, built alms houses to get the poor out of thir slums. William Wilberforce, remember him? The man who fought against slavery to get it outlawed?

        So you think you are now enlightened and taken the moral high ground against the religious simpletons.

        This debate is getting boring now. The same old mantra from the atheist that the religious must prove their God in some scientific/naturalist/measurable way. The same old mantra from the religious that they prove God to themselves by their subjective experiences. roll

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  3. gregb4hope profile image68
    gregb4hopeposted 11 years ago

    How sad that you feel God creates hate. For the record I don't agree because it is man who utilizes hate for his own empowerment. The God of the Bible demonstrate men weaknesses at the Cross on full display with their tainted injustice system put Christ (sinless and loving to all yet firmly knowing there is a God) on the Cross.  Jesus isn't hating anyone in fact he's quite forgiving. But it is men who are doing the hating and all of it is with out God 's help! Because they think they can judge better than the next guy in their pride don't blame God. You will be wasting your breath.  The only difference between an atheist and a religionist is the religionist uses God for his purposes and the atheist don't have a god he chooses to use. But they both can be evil and self righteous people.  And none of that does nothing to discount the existence of a God. In fact, Jesus Christ is the best case ever for the proof of a God.  Virgin birth....and a Resurrected Body leaving an empty tomb. What a daring story to make up and who in earth could pull it off.  Disciples denied knowing him in the court of law for fear of losing their own life. But 40 days later and witnesses of his resurrection preach Christ until some of themselves are nailed to cross by Romans guards. What a conversion!! Christ is perfect...men are imperfect and yet Christ waits...it's call grace. I wouldn't call it hating...because that's what we did to Him on Calvary's Hill and refused to hate us back.  You are right..hate does exist but not where you think it is.

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    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      He is only 17, I think.   He has never experienced any miracles that have no scientific explanation. I have ... so many times!

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      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
        Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        You are in year 13, sixth form... so I guess that means you are older than 17. sorry.  I did not mean to stop this debate.  Any way, My question for you is this:  Without belief in God how do we teach our children morals and values?  what would they be based on?  I guess we would have to rely on philosophy.  According to Plato... we must realize that we cannot "do what we like", without considering that causing others harm, in doing what we like, causes injustice. But, what if an individual is raised not to care about injustice? I once ran into an atheist student who did not consider the golden rule what so ever.

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        1. A Troubled Man profile image58
          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Reason, logic and rationale, which is what we actually use today. Unfortunately, there are so many believers who continue to cling to their ancient myths and superstitions based on violence and hatred that it's almost impossible to make positive changes.

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        2. kirstenblog profile image79
          kirstenblogposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Real understanding of why things that are wrong are wrong. If you cannot understand why something is wrong beyond 'because God says so' then what happens when in a moment of spiritual doubt? The only reason you had for not doing 'wrong', the only thing holding you back, is gone? At least by exploring the reasons why something is wrong, you have a reason that should not be susceptible to doubt because it's based on logical reasoning as opposed to emotional reasoning of 'feeling' God in your life.
          The only cases where this is not likely to work is the sociopaths and psychopaths out there but then again, religion doesn't work for them either. The second they doubt the punishment from God, religion becomes a tool for their twisted desires (think, pedo-preists) instead of a way to try to be better people. The other thing to be said for morality and values to be based on logical understandings of why things that are wrong are wrong, is that you wont be encouraged to put your faith in potential sociopaths and give them power and trust they don't deserve. Instead you would be encouraged to think for yourself and understand for yourself the cause and effect nature of the world around us smile

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        3. twosheds1 profile image60
          twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Is something wrong only because God decrees it? I don't think the Bible is a particularly good source for morality: women should be quiet in church, homosexuality is an abomination, eating shellfish is an abomination, Lot's daughters, etc.

          Moral behavior is hardwired into us by evolution, so to say that without God we can't lead moral lives or teach our children morality is patently false. Children learn by example. If you only behave because you fear God's wrath, that's not a very good reason for behaving, is it? Do you children only behave because they fear you? Also not a good reason. Children need to be taught that good behavior, altruism, etc., is good for its own sake, and that when we engage in those behaviors, we improve the conditions for everyone. For example, when people give food to food banks, they are preventing people from going hungry. Not only is this just a good thing to do, those people are less likely to resort to crime in order to feed themselves, so it is good for society in general. It's a very broad generalization, but I think it works.

          So, in my case, I've taught my kids both by example and by telling them that everyone benefits when they do good things. (in a very general way)

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      2. A Troubled Man profile image58
        A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        So many times? Obviously then, you should be able to provide a lengthy list.  lol

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        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
          Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Can't you?  and yes my list is long!

          There is a lot of impulse behavior going on these days, as always, that have nothing to do with the use of rational, logic and reason. Jesus came to tell us that God loves every one of us and forgives every one of us.   Armed with this love of God, shouldn't that make us willingly loving to each other and not shoot each other in movie theaters and in temples... etc.?

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          1. twosheds1 profile image60
            twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Well let's see them!

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          2. A Troubled Man profile image58
            A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Then, there's a Nobel Prize with your name on it. Submit the list for verification and you'll be rich and famous.



            That's what happens when one believes in gods.



            It's the wrong message, we shouldn't love each other nor attempt to spread such a bad message to others. It has accomplished little else than death and destruction for centuries.

            There are far better messages to live by if one were to use rationale, logic and reason.

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            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
              Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Well lets see them!  Then there will be a Nobel prize for you too.

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              1. A Troubled Man profile image58
                A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You made the original claim for have so many miracles. Share them here for verification. Often, when believers claim miracles, they aren't miracles at all.

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                1. God made science profile image61
                  God made scienceposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  It's YOU who never saw a good version of miracle. You are alive, that's a miracle to begin with. Your blind, dear man lol

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                  1. twosheds1 profile image60
                    twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    *You're smile
                    That's just your interpretation. How about some examples where the laws of nature were suspended? Someone being spontaneously healed, brought back from the dead, etc.

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                  2. A Troubled Man profile image58
                    A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Ah, I see your confusion, equating miracles to biology and evolution.

                    The vast amount of life forms on this planet alone, how they interact with each other directly and indirectly affecting one another, living and dying by the tens of thousands every day would easily take the sheen off the *bling* often referred to as a miracle.

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        2. kirstenblog profile image79
          kirstenblogposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          posted 2 days ago and still no lengthy list?

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          1. A Troubled Man profile image58
            A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            LOL!

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    2. A Troubled Man profile image58
      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      There is nothing so daring in such a story that hasn't been pulled off elsewhere with other fictional books. And, although the Bible has some poetic literature, it isn't that good of a read when compared with those other books. At the very least, we understand fantasies such as virgin births, resurrected bodies and gods were all made up just like the cyclops and sirens in the Odyssey.

      To choose one such fantasy over another as being real is childish.

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      1. God made science profile image61
        God made scienceposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Often truth sounds like the most incredible fantasy.

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        1. A Troubled Man profile image58
          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Fascinating. roll

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          1. God made science profile image61
            God made scienceposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            lol :

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  4. gregb4hope profile image68
    gregb4hopeposted 11 years ago

    When a man comes for the sole purpose of dying, publicly before all the world to see among a great empire known as Rome. Among his own people which he was foretold to come  and then be nailed to a cross to prove his death in no uncertain terms (a form of execution acknowledged in the Roman Empire).....and then walk out of a tomb to prove the power of His God by obedience to the law of His God due sinless nature and then receive life again. Biblically we die because of sins by this God...makes sense that it would take someone who has no sin in him and proves it would also have life returned to that person. Finally after being fearful and unbelieving themselves, the apostles believe to the point of willing to also suffer to share to all and some dying on the cross by Roman guards because of what they seen after his death.....which was the resurrection. And then a book of isolated  letters published that later become known as the Bible. Consider the years and the power to survive time itself and the wars and the unbelief of skeptics and doubters certainly our generation isn't the first.  Perhaps ' a trouble man" I agree there are many myths out of the imaginations of men but I beg to differ a man would be counted a fool to try and pull off what the Bible declares. To even attempt it would be ludicrous and impossible to succeed as it have unless God cared enough to do it himself.  I believe it by faith......that's all God is asking. I don't see any myths like Zeus and Baal, astrology, Hindu, Islam dying for me that I might have the same .....eternal life!

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    1. A Troubled Man profile image58
      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Of course you do, that's entirely the point. The Bible is no more a piece of literature than any other book. It would be ludicrous to believe it having much validity beyond any other fictional book or myth.



      Indoctrination is a powerful tool, it can cause the acceptance of one myth while rejecting all the rest.

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  5. gregb4hope profile image68
    gregb4hopeposted 11 years ago

    Indoctrination got nothing to do with it. The facts clearly put the event beyond the control of men. Though it is men thru their use of free will is out willed by God. Creator clearly demonstrate His foreknowledge of creation. The Bible declares that Israel will be a nation again. And now it is May 1948 and Israel (a myth many say) is returned and the only questioned is "is it biblical prophecy at work or is it coincidence...is it reality of truth preparing to demonstrate itself or is it mere idle words based on myths?".  Time is beginning to tell. There was Calvary's Hill where Christ out of love yielded to Man.

    The Bible has another event called battle of Armageddon and it isn't in Chicago...Moscow or Peking. It's outside of Israel known as the valley of decision called the Valley of Jeshosaphat. God's wonderful grace can mislead many to think there is no God at all. Myths are fairy tales....Truth is a demonstration of it's working power beyond all doubt and unbelief. And based on the book of Revelations it will take no prisoners this time with man having nuclear weapons of self destruction perhaps Grace would have run it's course.

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    1. A Troubled Man profile image58
      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I'm sure we could sit here all day pulling examples out of any scriptures from any religion and making conclusions. So what? Beyond all doubt and unbelief? Hilarious. lol

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      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
        Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Only someone who calls himself A TROUBLED MAN has no miracles occurring in his life. The name never falls far from the tree.
          (For instance, "God Made Science" is Right On.)
        If I give you my list, you won't believe it... so why bother? Every person in the world has a list, if they but take notice...

        I will give you a few from my list for the purpose of providing examples of what one can look for and count as a miracle:

        1. When my was daughter young, she had a earache for the third time in two months. Each time before, we kicked it with antibiotics.  I desperately said a prayer to God to Please heal her.... because I did not want to give her ANOTHER round of antibiotics!... The next morning the ear infection was completely gone.

        2.  I helped a woman I know from work, clean up her house and watch her kids for free periodically because her husband is in the Navy. I did it just to help out and did not expect compensation.  Well, as a show of almost Instant good Karma... my brother showed up, (he lives 5 hours from me,) to help me paint my entire house, which I had started painting yellow by brush. (It would have taken me a year to finish at that slow pace!)  We were advised where to get the best deal on renting a sprayer by a UPS man who walked up the driveway to deliver a package. The next morning while I was still asleep my brother bought more paint and got to work. I got up to find the whole house done!  He would not take any money from me! ( I count returning good karma as a miracle.) 

        3. My daughter rescued a dog by paying $100.00 to get it out of the L.A. Pound.  We named it Sparky.  Sparky had a broken hip.  I saw the X-rays. Her back was crooked, but since my daughter really wanted to save the dog, (she works at an emergency vet clinic) we brought her to my house. They said the dog needed surgery and would've been put down for sure.  For some reason My daughter insisted on saving that dog.  So I brought it home and took care of it, (My daughter lives in an apartment.) Well, the dog has completely healed without surgery and her back is not in the least crooked any more!  The miracle is that my daughter was called the next day to do a commercial (She is also an actress.) requiring that she bring in a dog! ( She brought in our other dog, Atlas... who now considers himself a movie star.)The money she spent on Sparky, came back to her the next day!

          Sure, you can call it coincidence!  But, I think there is more at work behind the scenes... whether God or Cosmic Consciousness or Omnipresent Spirit ...  Come On Troubled man,  think back... are there REALLY no instances of the return of good karma or ANYTHING miraculous in your life?? Then maybe you could change your name to something like  UNTROUBLED MAN or Thankful Man, Or Happy Man!

        P.S.  Can I have my Nobel Prize yet?  I can give more examples if you want!  I hope you do not say no.  It will be very disappointing if you do. sad

        4. Oh one more example... I found the Robin Trower record,  "Twice Removed From Yesterday" at a Goodwill Thrift Store.  (Its been playing the whole time I typed this...)  If THAT'S not a miracle, I do not know what is.

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        1. autumn18 profile image58
          autumn18posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I'm curious. You mentioned karma a couple times in your examples but I thought karma was part of Buddhism and doesn't really jive with Christianity. Aren't miracles something that comes from God?

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          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Karma is the law of cause and effect. It is a universal principle. Jesus traveled to India and knew all about these religions. There are records of his visit in Ladakh.  Christians are allowed to discuss the whole and real truth of Jesus. All religions refer to the same God and therefore the same laws and principles.  Everything come from God.  Rainbows, although scientifically explainable, are miracles. The sun and the moon and this planet are miracles.  We are so surrounded, we are desensitized! The biggest miracle is a human baby!    These are just the thoughts of another human being... take it or leave it.

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          2. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Karma is the law of Cause and Effect.  God, whatever name is given, is the same in any religion. What is true for Buddhists is true for Christians.

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            1. autumn18 profile image58
              autumn18posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Ok thanks for replying. I see you aren't rigid in Christian beliefs which is totally fine. You may or may not believe in the reincarnation part of karma but I'm pretty sure that's not a Christian belief. As far as your miracles I think they are great and you can see them as whatever you wish. I disagree however that they are proof of miracles. I think they can be cherished events/moments and still be things that just happen randomly.

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              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
                Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                aw... you are no fun. 
                Jesus clearly said that he had been the prophet Elisha in his past life and that John The Baptist had been Elijah. Of course, there is reincarnation!   The law of Karma is dependent on it.  Some Karma cannot be paid back in the same lifetime!

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                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  We are destined to all be like Jesus...One with God. He said Heaven is Within.  Buddha and Krishna say so as well. That is because we are gods already. (Jesus said, "know ye not ye are gods?") If you want to know the nature of reality, there are many self-realized masters to choose from!  Read Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yoganada and the Science of Religion by Sri Yukteswar, his guru. Their mission was to explain Jesus's true teachings.  What Christian can explain what Jesus meant when he said, "If Thine eye be single thy whole body will be full of light"? He was referring to meditation.  This is the best way to realize our love and oneness with God.

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        2. twosheds1 profile image60
          twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Those were cool and all, but don't seem particularly miraculous. Sorry.

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          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Well, I give you permission to see such events in YOUR life as miracles! Do you want more examples?  I could launch into more examples , but you would just yawn and call them "non-miracles"...  But I am aware that God works in mysterious ways!   You do not recognize miracles in your own life because you are prejudiced against the possibility.  That is unfortunate for you. In essence you are very closed minded. So open your mind.  It is more fun to acknowledge miracles, recognize them for what they truly are and have a thankful heart.  God has to stay invisible to grant us free will.  But he works with our desires... on an invisible level like the wind.  We feel God's presence like we feel the wind.  Fortunate turns of events are like the Winds of God.

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            1. twosheds1 profile image60
              twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I admit I am prejudiced against events that defy the laws of nature. Guilty as charged. But I feel that when something unusual happens, to call it supernatural (miraculous or whatever) is to be satisfied with ignorance.

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              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
                Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                And what is so wrong with Ignorance, pray tell?  Like WE know anything... not even what a miracle truly is!

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                1. A Troubled Man profile image58
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  So, if you don't what a miracle is, how do you round calling everyday events miracles?

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                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, You have convinced me that I do not know.   Can you tell me what a miracle is?  If they never happen on earth... fine. I will believe that too. I will just join the ranks of troubled men. We will make you our Guru, A Troubled Man. Will You lead us to good or bad , positive or negative, darkness of light or what??? nutrality? if so, How? I would like to go there.

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          2. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I knew there would be loud yawning for my "non miracles."  Too Bad.
            So no Nobel prize pour moi. sad
            Isn't that A Gentle Giant face peering out, twosheds1?? That band was miraculous! Come on now! Miracles are subtle... like human creativity and potential...  like computers, the Internet, like a 1 ton rover on mars...that is a miracle to me... Ask those scientists if they had and are having a miracle or two!

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            1. twosheds1 profile image60
              twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Why yes, that is a GG face. If you're going to define miracles like that, that really robs them of any divine influence. The scientists and engineers that were responsible for landing the Mars rover (or the other craft that have landed on Mars in the past, such as Viking 1 & 2 in the '70s) probably don't credit a supernatural agency at all. They credit hard work, dedication and perserverance.

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              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
                Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                "Probably???"   I think Ill go over there and ask one of the scientists. I live near JPL!

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        3. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
          Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          P.S.
          God is like the wind... invisible. He works in his own time and ways.  He has to stay invisible to grant us free will.  I see fortunate turns of events as the winds of God. God cooperates with our desires.

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          1. God is in kitchen profile image59
            God is in kitchenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Is there a wind-mill lol

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            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
              Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Is there one in yer kitchen? Is it blowing popcorn all over the place?  buttered, I hope.

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        4. A Troubled Man profile image58
          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Those are not miracles by any stretch of the imagination. Doing good deeds are not miracles, they are just good deeds. Your dog example sounds very suspicious. A dog with a broken hip is healed and becomes a movie star? lol

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          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            No, Sparky was home healing when Atlas got the commercial gig.  That would have been a miracle if I had prayed, "Dear God, please heal this dog's broken hip in time for tomorrow's audition." Is that the kind of miracle you are looking for? God just works in more subtle ways. He's cool like that.

            5. Actually, doing good deeds is kind of a miracle!  The joy within us that prompts such actions is miraculous.
             
            6. Children are born with a Joy of Life.  Their innate happiness is a miracle.  The very thing they need in order to develop robust psyches and live happy lives is implanted within them by nature.

            7. Love is a miracle.  The unconditional love of a mother and father for their child is a miracle.  Without this love a child would not survive.
             
            8. When two people fall in love and agree to spend the rest of their lives with one-another, that is a miracle.

            How can you be so closed to the miracles occurring constantly all the time?

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            1. A Troubled Man profile image58
              A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Obviously, you're confusing or just projecting your own beliefs onto common everyday events and scenarios. Those are not miracles by any stretch.

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              1. twosheds1 profile image60
                twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Re: #7, how about two atheists that have been married for 22 years? Is that still a miracle? You'd think God would want to break us up to punish us for apostasy.

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                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I have gone way beyond indoctrinations.  God just loves you guys.

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    2. lifethoughts profile image60
      lifethoughtsposted 11 years ago

      Always a tough one to talk about. Some people believe that the non-believers from of believing is in believing that nothing exists up there if that makes any sense. There are no right and wrongs and no one has to conform i firmly believe. All the theory and studies in the world wont be able to prove what none of us actually don't know for sure, sadly this topic often finds a way to separate us and divide us all.

      Good post overall though.

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      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
        Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        O. K. I am going for gold here.... Evolution is a miracle!  Furthermore, A Troubled Man, YOU are a miracle!  Your consciousness is a miracle! your very existance is a miracle!   I would not believe in YOU if I did not see the proof of Your Existence thru what you do here on this site...and no, I am not hitting on you.

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        1. twosheds1 profile image60
          twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          The fact that I'm still following this thread is a miracle. smile

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          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Yep, you are starting to get it!

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    3. beindustrial profile image65
      beindustrialposted 11 years ago

      This topic is non debatable. Simply because different people, different raises, different cultures have different religious beliefs. Let us just respect each other.

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      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image78
        Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        We ARE just respecting each other as far as I can tell!  When you come onto a forum and you criticize what you read, that is a very non-accepting thing to pull.  Just accept us. That is what makes the world go around. Aa Cc Cc Ee Pp Tt Aa Nn Cc Ee. Peace.

        But it is amusing how we seem to have an air of the last word. Like any of us really know anything for absolute certain.

        There is a high probability that the earth will not stop turning anytime soon. Did I say that with a justifiable air of authority?

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    4. lifetips123 profile image55
      lifetips123posted 11 years ago

      Brothers and sisters, why are we debating on the existence of god becoz if he is not there, how could i write this hub smile

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      1. twosheds1 profile image60
        twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Are you familiar with the term "tautology?"

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    5. maxdiaz profile image59
      maxdiazposted 6 years ago

      God exists, Period!

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    6. gregb4hope profile image68
      gregb4hopeposted 6 years ago

      God proves his existence in the most supernatural of ways. God creates Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden.  But chooses a man name Moses to write it down approx. 1600 biblical years after the event. He writes the beginnings of the human race leading up to Abraham and gives such intimate detail on the history of the line of Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel., It is unthinkable for a man to dare write with authority of events he was not even alive at the time.  In addition these writings has been proven  prophetic and continues to this day to impact a world despite unbelief like no other book on earth!  Moses is credited with writing the book of Genesis and he can't do this in his own might for he is dead and buried.....but the Word continues right on up to Jesus and now even the rebirth of Israel of 1948 May 14. And there are biblical words related to that as well.  I wonder why didn't Adam write his own story?

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      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        "God creates Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden.  But chooses a man name Moses to write it down approx. 1600 biblical years after the event. He writes the beginnings of the human race leading up to Abraham and gives such intimate detail on the history of the line of Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel."

        "It is unthinkable for a man to dare write with authority of events he was not even alive at the time.  "

        When a man writes with authority about something that happened thousands of years before his birth and then comments how unthinkable such an action is I have to raise an eyebrow.  Just what is being said here?

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    7. gregb4hope profile image68
      gregb4hopeposted 6 years ago

      Why does God reveal the tragic incident of Cain killing his brother Abel? They both know that God is...because they both bring a sacrifice to God. So belief in a God is not the issue. Religion is not the issue.....fighting over another woman is not the issue....battling for land is not the issue, for the whole earth is theirs. Plenty of food because there is no poverty. Racial prejudice is not the issue because they are from the same mother and father. God shows to all who dares to read it, just how determined we are to do things our way and not the way of the Creator.

      God, who has every right to what He prefers, and he preferred the sacrifice Abel presented is what made Cain angry. All Cain had to do was do likewise but instead choose to attack his innocent brother. killing without remorse..... And so begins the need of a savior to come and deliver humankind from the cycle of desperate and angry Cain's of the world. In order to make our life count for something as the Abel's of the world bring the preferred sacrifice that God wants....Jesus! Truth versus Religion.....My way  versus God's way....Abel versus Cain. It appears Abel loses as Cain is given grace and go into the mountains with a seal from God for his transgression. But like Jesus was resurrected from the dead this clearly gives opportunity that one day...so will Abel and those like him in the eyes of God. Is justice served....perhaps it finally will be!

      Why do we have this story to read as religions battle each other for supremacy? God knew it first....This excerpt is probably not much of a debate for this thread but it certainly is a fact that biblical adds some clarity to why I believe the Word. It has a way of proving itself from the very beginning!

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    8. gregb4hope profile image68
      gregb4hopeposted 6 years ago

      What is being said is only God could have given the story of Adam & Eve to be written down. This is not Moses imagination at work but the Creator at work in the presence of Moses. Detailing events no other human being could over such a vast time period as Genesis gives the history of Sodom & Gomorrah and, Abraham and so much more! This the power of God thru the ages of Time  itself and the story still stands in the midst of creation!

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