If ever there's a reason to doubt the existence of God it is..........

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   Disappearingheadposted 10 years ago

   .......in cases of missing children. In the news in the UK today, a 3 year old boy has gone missing from his home in Edinburgh. Search parties are out along with a national awareness campaign. No doubt Christians up and down the country are praying for his safe return. Hopefully he will be found but in thousands of cases worldwide the child is never found. Now God actually does know where the child is; whether wandering, hiding, fallen, trapped, held by a kidnapper, or dead.
   
   Christians are constantly telling us how the 'Spirit of Truth' has revealed something to them. It may be that one of their doctrines is true, that creationism is real and evolution a lie of satan. Or maybe the spirit led them to a parking space, a beautiful item of clothing, or in the case of 'Sky2day' a used computer from a nice gentleman. So why does this same 'Spirit of Truth' not reveal the location of a missing child? Why aren't 1000 Christians phoning the police to tell them "the child is located at X and here are the GPS coordinates"?

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      Emile Rposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Nothing like the heart wrenching pain we all fear will happen to our own family to open up a contentious dialogue on faith, with nothing but hard feelings left in the wake.
      
      I suppose, if we went by OT laws there might be less of this type of thing. The perpetrator might have already been stoned to death for disrespecting his parents, or had his eyes removed for looking at persons he shouldn't with lust. As it stands, (if the UK is anything like the US) if they catch the perpetrator he might get off by a defense that he simply couldn't help himself because he needs help. It's not his fault; poor guy was abused, himself, and he couldn't have been expected to know better.
      
      Why do we lash out at others when we are frustrated by circumstances? Why is one person's manner of coping with the trials of existence open for ridicule when circumstances completely outside of their control bring about tragic consequences? Sure, the constant drivel offered about how trivial things are addressed by cosmic forces while more pressing problems warrant no concern can be maddening, but; really?
      
      Do anyone else's professed beliefs aid in finding the child? Do any other beliefs offer hope, or comfort, to the grieving parents? If so, perhaps those beliefs have resolved the other problems we face as a species since, if those beliefs can pin point a missing child they could certainly have protected the child from going missing, solved world hunger and brought peace to the Middle East. Oh, and found my missing car keys, as well.
      
      Maybe, that list of problems solved should be scrambled. First, find the kid safe and happily oblivious to the fact he is missing. Then my car keys. I do come first, cosmically, however; I can rise above my selfish ego (at times) to show some consideration of others so the needs of the kid should prevail...but, only until that child is returned. After that, it's back to me.

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         Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I hope it doesn't embarrass you that I am always so blown away by what you write, but you always go straight to the heart of a matter and I am so often impressed that I can't help but say so. If you ever write a book, I will read it. You should have been a philosopher. Your practicality is usually such wisdom.

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            Emile Rposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Haha. Keep it up Beth. They probably already think you're my sock puppet, but that's ok. I appreciate the complement.

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               Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

               sock puppet... that's crazy talk.
               Oh, did I tell you how beautiful you are and talented too? We all wish we were you Emile.

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                  EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Yup, that is exactly how sock puppets operate.

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                     Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Hence the joke.

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                        EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        Yeah, sure.

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                           Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           You got me. I'm Emile's sock puppet. Sorry Emile, to let the secret out.

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                     Emile Rposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     See, you obviously don't know me. I'd never pay myself a compliment if there was a complaint i could make about myself instead.

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         Disappearingheadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I would have hoped you had known me better by now Emile. I'm not being cynical or capitalising on a tragic situation to score a point. Christians claim a hotline to God, that he reveals things to them, so why not something useful in a case of a missing child? What's the point of hope and comfort when what is actually needed is a practical resolution, in this case the child found?

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            Emile Rposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Oh, I know what you meant, but i also know the road this thread will travel. We can all hope the family of that child will steer clear of this thread.
            
            As to prayer...we all have our delusions. If it gives comfort I'm not certain how much I can knock it. Not that I haven't been caustic on the issue, from time to time, but I can't see where anyone makes head way pointing out the obvious here. Heck, there's a thread now where someone is claiming accepting evolution is tantamount to being led by the devil. Those types are who they are. Nothing said will be looked on as reason.

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      aguasilverposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      God is not a dial up psychics helpline (and  psychics don't have those co-ordinates either), you are confusing your desire to justify your loss of belief with a sad situation that is beyond our understanding.
      
      Bad things happen because believers fail to exercise their appointed and anointed authority to reclaim the enemies territory for Yeshua.
      
      I am just as guilty of that as any (or most) believers are, but at least I now recognise the problem and am trying to restore what should happen in the battle between the enemy and Gods people.
      
      Why have you given up your faith?

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         Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         We are told prayer can move mountain, get 'Sky2day' a used computer from a nice gentleman, coordinate Beth's vacation and I believe you've made some spectacular claims as well, but when push comes to shove we are told God doesn't work that way. Child dying of cancer, ten's of thousands praying and child dies. If the child had survived praised would have been given to Jesus, if the child dies we are told it doesn't work like that. Child goes missing, and if found people give God credit, if child isn't found we are told it doesn't work like that.
         
         Your statement seems to blame believers for not defeating the enemy. Would you blame the parents?

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            Zelkiiroposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            I seem to recall George Carlin mentioning something very similar...
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo

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               Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Wow, he makes some good points.

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         wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Wow!  Bad enough that believers think they have a mandate to force others to behave as their god tells them to, but now a mandate to wage war and "reclaim" territory god allowed the heathen to occupy?
         
         It just gets worse and worse.

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         EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Odd how believers tell us all the time about what God thinks and does, how He finds lost car keys and wallets, helps to find computers and arrange vacations, yet when we are faced with an obvious contradiction to those events, it's "beyond our understanding."

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         Disappearingheadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Utter nonsense. What I am asking is a genuine question. It's not this situation that started me wondering, I was asking myself these very questions a few years ago. This isnt some post intended to mock Christians, it's a genuine enquiry. Don't you get so utterly bored with Christians banging on about how the trivial was miraculously provisioned, or how God revealed some 'truth' that is no new truth? It's about time Christians put up or shut up about 'how God spoke to them' and actually got some useful information. And what better way for God to demonstrate his existence?

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      tirelesstravelerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Could be because 1,000 Christians are not God and do not know where this child is?

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         Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Seems God's more interested in getting people computers or arranging vacation planes.

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         Disappearingheadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Err hello. Christians tell us all the time that God talks to them but it seems only about the trivial things.

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            Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

            So, I just have a question. If the town of the missing boy comes together and prays for his recovery (as recently happened in my small town) and he is indeed recovered (as was the result in my town) will you then give God the credit or will you say it was just a coincidence... and if so, what is the point of a thread like this?

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               Disappearingheadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I would be all too happy to give God credit. I'm no atheist afterall, just someone who is not satisfied by claims made by Christians that they have personal relationships with Jesus which singularly fail to be of any practical use for anything beyond trivia. Don't tell me God showed you where you car keys are if he can't show you where a missing child is.

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                  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Maybe you have forgotten what it is like to serve a God who parts the oceans and turns water into wine? God cares about rescuing us from our pursuers, he also cares about the mundane... maybe that is just to say that God cares about us. By us, I refer to mankind, not just believers.

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                     EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     LOL, And, you believe that?
                     
                     
                     
                     Sure, God cares about your mundane vacation, but doesn't rescue children who are lost.
                     
                     What a loving God... to care about your mundane vacation, of course.

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                     Disappearingheadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     And when was the last time anyone saw oceans parted or water turned into wine? What we have now is a religion with a thin veneer of the Christianity portrayed in the bible, a religion that doesn't stretch beyond the trivial.

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                        Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        So you have not seen any miracles as of late? It is a wicked and adulterous generation that asks for signs... maybe you have read that? Who is your qualm with? If it is with God, why not take it up with Him? Do you think He will shrink from your questions? Or do you fear mocking the Creator? I don't understand where you are coming from. What do you need?

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                           EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Unfortunately, God isn't the one writing that nonsense on these forums. You are.

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                           Disappearingheadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           You do realise that when Jesus said that he was talking to the local peasantry and Pharisees who followed him just because they wanted to see a miracle to gossip about dont you. So tell me, when you ask him for you car keys, dont you seek an answer, don't you seek their whereabouts to be revealed to you, a sign to confirm to you all is well in your relationship with Jesus?
                           
                           Of course I took up situations like the one above up with God, umpteen times over many years? Did I get an answer? No. What did Christians say? Nothing of any substance because they were just as bereft of any answers and just copped out with words like 'sovereignty.
                           
                           It's odd because according to the gospels Jesus told the apostles that he shared the Father's will, plan, vision with them because they were his friends. Seems like he has barely any friends these days.

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                     EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     LOL. And, you believe that God recovered that missing boy? Are you serious? No, really?
                     
                     Does it take an entire town to move God to find a missing boy? Why not just the prayers of the parents? Does that mean God has a minimum requirement of prayers before he gets off his butt and does something? What about all the other children who have never been found? Perhaps, there just wasn't enough people praying?
                     
                     You do realize that by supporting such a position, you severely insult every single family that has lost a child who was never found or was found dead. Try looking in the mirror and thinking about that.

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               Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I just spoke about this. Tens of thousands were praying for the recovery of a 7 year old from cancer, but it didn't work. If he survived then people like you would claim God saved him, but when the child dies, it's God doesn't work like that. Well which is it? He get one person a new computer and another arranges vacation plans, but allows a child to die painfully and needlessly.
               
               All the studies done on the power of prayer have come up empty. Believers claim you can't make God do what he doesn't what, but if one shows a positive result you'd jump right in there with a "see".

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                  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  I am not God. I can ask, but ultimately, if He chooses to bring a child home, so be it. Life is tumultuous at best. None of us are promised even one more day. If you do not accept the sovereignty of God, we cannot come to any kind of resolution.

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                     Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     So you admit that prayer doesn't work as you feel God's plan is already in place.
                     
                     Don't you see what happens? When you get what you want you claim it's evidence of God, when you don't get what you want you claim it's part of Gods plan.
                     
                     He allows children to suffer and give you a much needed vacation? The universe make much more sense without said God.

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                        Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        God asks us to pray for His will.

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                           EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           So, when his "Will" is to arrange your vacation but not find lost children, we are to continue to worship and love God?

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                           Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Why would a perfect God need our prayers? Is he weak without prayer and praise?
                           
                           Keep giving thanks to God for lost keys if you must, but have a look around you. Statistically prayer don't work, but they may make one feel like they are helping in some way. So keep prayer, but don't ask other to join in.

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                              Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              God does not need our prayers. He allows us to be a part of what He is doing. It is a relational thing. Does a child need to go to the hardware store for *anything? No, but the dad asks him to come along and he does... and he feels close to his dad, and he relates to him, and he learns.

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            tirelesstravelerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Only if they are listening.

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   kessposted 10 years ago

   You are correct, if the god you believe in does not inspire hope in a situation like this, then you should stop believing in it.

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      wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Hope is cheap, and whether a believer or non-believer, hope springs eternal.
      
      The proof is in action, not hope.  If He doesn't help, not just stand around being the object of hope, then you should stop believing.

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         kessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Hope it's not cheap when you believe in the true God....it is actually free.
         
         Hope it's the beginning of every possibility.
         
         Evidence of it can be found in every situation, but especially through hopelessness who tries to negate it at every turn.

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   Beth37posted 10 years ago

   I hadn't seen my family in years and wouldn't see them for several more. I had been through divorce proceedings with no family and no friends... I had worked straight for two years without a day off. I realize that God's gift in allowing me to see my family was mundane to some of you, but to me, it meant quite a lot. Was it *more important than the other ways God works in the lives of humanity? Of course not. He is able to do more than we can ask or understand. Multi-tasking is not a problem for God.

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      EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Wait a minute, you went through a divorce? Isn't that a very serious sin?

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         Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I don't know about that but it seems to me it would be a sin to put ones vacation plans ahead of the life of child.

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            Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Unfollow.

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         Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Ooh, did you find a new reason to stone me? How very exciting for you. sigh.
         I had filed the papers and told the kids. My husband simply wouldn't take the final steps, which was a court appearance. We lived in the same house in separate bedrooms for two years... after a lot of prayer, I asked God to help me forgive. We have been working on the marriage for 9 mos. now. It's still a day by day process.
         
         So now share something personal about yourself.

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            EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            No one is stoning you, I am just pointing out the massive hypocrisy of your belief system. It appears you can turn it on and turn it off when it suits your fancy.
            
            No problem though, there are plenty of seats by the fire, I'll be sure to save one for you.

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               Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I had a biblical reason to divorce, I did not. Judge me as you will, it is meaningless.

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                  EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm not judging you. At least, that would probably be what you would say if you copied a bunch of verses from the bible regarding the fate of nonbelievers. You would probably say, "Take it up with God".
                  
                  Divorce is rampant amongst Christians, they have one of the highest divorce rates of any particular demographic, way higher than nonbelievers. Of course, I'm sure they all have biblical reasons for their divorces, or at least, that's what they would claim.
                  
                  I think the only thing biblical about Christian divorces is the hypocrisy.

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                     Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Speaking of hypocrisy, Im not sure why you put smiley faces after your posts... there is nothing remotely friendly or kind about them. I would prefer it if we did not chat... I tend to get banned for speaking to you no matter what the fashion.

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                        EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        Really? You get banned talking to me? Would that be due to the personal insults?
                        
                        Anyways, we can see that hypocrisy is extremely high in those Christians who evangelize. Must be the guilt.

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                     Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Some of your statement is not entirely accurate. I would like to see your statistics on how many Christians actually use the bible as a reason or justification for their divorce. To say that you're sure of that would imply that you know why all or at least a majority of Christians get divorced. The truth is that a majority of divorced Christians that I have spoken with do not mention the bible at all as a factor in their divorce. Some were abused, money was a factor, incompatibility in general as well. The funny thing is that in my experiences with my fellow Christians, more have actually stayed together in spite of the one biblical reason(infidelity) than actually split up

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   Disappearingheadposted 10 years ago

   An update on the missing 3 year old boy in the OP: police have found a body 20 miles away at the home of a relative of the mother who has now been detained.

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      tirelesstravelerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry to hear this news.

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