Mark and Holly - Please leave us alone unless....
Some positive - some not so positive..... LOL
What makes you think that?
I have lost many since - more as I get older. May have even helped a few along. The American road can be tough sometimes.
And yes - dying is a natural part of living. I don't fear death. Pain - yes. Death - not so much.
Creation comes from destruction. Life out of death.
Oh yes. Not so positive. I may have made a bet with myself not to leave a US state without having slept with at least 2 females. In hindsight - not so positive although I do have an impressive tally if you are interested in that sort of thing.
So - would you say your faith has come only after realizing your mortality? Or being diagnosed?No - I can imagine. Sandra dealt with it 10000000% better than I did. How is your new husband coping? Honestly - from my own experience - I am more worried about him than you.
I still don't understand what makes you think there is life after death. I mean - it makes no sense and does not fit in with everything I know, see and understand.
This is breaking the cycle. No death - no new life.I feel a life force in everything that is living also.
But - I don't see that everything happens for a reason - sorry. I don't think we have a path either. We can make one though. And I do not know/understand that which we do not know. Sure - there are things out there that we do not have proof of. But I don't see that as a reason to imagine what you are doing. I mean - I don't know - no one does - but it doesn't resonate as making sense. From death comes life. And - if we live forever - it is in those things we give life to by dying. Including this conversation.
No matter what - I will never forget you. Even though I hardly know you and we have fought like cat and dog since we met.Of course we can. But why do you defend those who do think I should think the way they do?
I am off to bed now. See you in the morrow - with or without apostle jack who know it all.
Sleep well - I'll reply in a bit. Hubby is going to wonder what happened to his dinner before long
Yes - we talked about it. We both agreed it was the end. Neither of us had any religious faith. I don't see why it would not be final. I mean - a get out of jail free card? Why would we think the obvious life/death cycle we see all around would not apply to us?
She was much more comfortable with it than I was. I was convinced I could save the day/fix the problem/cure the cancer.
Didn't work like that. Humbling. Genuinely the first time I met a problem I could not either deal with or ignore.
But - I was young and stupid. Took me years to recover - if I have.
Nah - it is the testicles./
- ralwusposted 14 years ago
0 How Holly sees the universe
I promise you - I am not insane LOL What I believe is not simply cherry picked - it is what I have learned from living.
There is God - the foundation and creator of all living things. Not trying to be offensive, just stating what I believe. I simply can't wrap my head around random, evolution, big bang. Life is far too miraclulous to have a perchance beginning in my mind.
I told you I have been considered a bit of a wild one, a flower child, possibly tainted by some new age thinking. I believe in energy and life forces which we don't know anywhere near enough about yet. Everything has a force be it energy, magnetic, vibration, or karma. We tune out much more than we should and don't tune in enough to make a difference.
My hubby says he is in awe watching me live and love in the universe <weg> That I am an essence.
You asked about "But why do you defend those who do think I should think the way they do? "
My principles may be a bit off center, but I am principled. I am not defending those who want to make you think like they do. Quite frankly, I would be the first to defend you (not that you need it) if you were targetted by others in the atheist threads. We both know that you seek out the christian threads, march in and speak knowing full well you are attacking everything held dear. You hunt them. There is not one place they can share what they believe without you (and others like you) declaring war. You have a right to what you believe even if no one else agrees, but you don't have the right to hunt down every christian thread and attack.
The other principle that is evident to me is that they are only words if you give them no power yourself. What would happen if I popped into a parenting thread about the joy of big families, told them it was morally wrong to have more than 1 child, and called them delusional? Would it change them? Tick them off? Maybe if I hunted down all their threads and gave them a caustic piece of my mind they would stop having big families? Not likely. I invited myself to their space and verbally assaulted them. That is what I get riled about. Again if it was happening to you, I would defend your rights even if I disagreed with your thinking.
Why do you think there is nothing left of the soul after the physical life is over?
Also you said you didn't think you would be willing to endure chemo (tough treatments) to live if you knew paradise was waiting? I would have thought the opposite. That if this is all the life there is why not fight for every last breath?
Not sure I worded that right but it is still early for me - 2nd cup has not kicked in yetYes - I understand that is what you believe, but it doesn't really answer the question. I already know you believe in a god - why?
Evolution is not random, but I don't see how not being able to understand them is a reason for believing either.
And your argument is - "It is too amazing not to have been done by a God, therefore there is a god."
Personally - I see it as amazing, but do not need to assume it must have been done buy a god. Although - I rejected a god before I understood about evolution. Not sure I buy the big bang thing either, but I am comfortable with "I don't know."
Most believers I think find some comfort ion having an answer - no matter ow false that might be. I treasure honesty and I am honest enough to admit I don't know. A God? Too easy. Too pat. No work involved. I don't know, therefore a god dunnit? No - not buying it - for a number of reasons, including the high failure rate of humans and other life forms.
The Christian God? Populate an entire planet and then wipe everyone off the face of the earth because they displease you? Hmmmm. Nope. After a little research and understanding - I don't see how any one can read the bible and still think there is a god.
Umm. I believe in energy and life forces and vibrations also. I can tune in at will - although I tend not to lately because it interferes with making a living and I am not cynical enough to sell yoga videos and am disgusted by people who do. Not sure what that has to do with a god though. Yes - I can sense things I cannot see or measure. But - I do not need to have an answer to them and am dissatisfied wit the religious answer - because I think it is wrong.
It sounds like he loves you a great deal - you are lucky.
Well - at the risk of getting into another fight - I think you are wrong and these people have more than enough places to share their beliefs that I WILL BEND MY KNEE TO JESUS BECAUSE HE IS LORD!, and I personally find that ogffensive - especially when they then claim to be wanting a civil discussion aftyer telling me I will grovel.
You are not defending their rights - your are are attacking me because I am speaking out against these who attack homosexuals and those who threaten the Lord's vengeance on unbelievers. You seem not to notice that I never, ever speak against tolerant Christians.
And - despite the fact that you do not want to be lumped in with "Christians" per se - you do not seem to notice that there are some very nasty, aggressive Christians who have driven away quite a few tolerant reasonable ones. Scott life comes to mind. Gone - vanished - driven away by evangelicals.
I have no reason to think there is. Because some religious person tells me? Because my Grandma believed? No - I genuinely see no evidence of life after death - and it goes completely against what I see with my own eyes - the circle of life. No death means no new life. It just doesn't make any sense.
Quality of life is very important to me. Partly why I live where I do. I watched Sandra go through chemotherapy - it was extremely unpleasant and she did not survive it.
I guess it would depend on the type of cancer, the odds of survival and the types of chemo I was being offered. An extra 6 months in agonizing pain with no hair or nails and feeling ill all the time? Not for me.
I hope for a good death and Sandra's was not a good death. After all - we all must die - better a good one I think.
But - that does not really answer my question. You are the one that thinks you have eternity in paradise. If you cannot or will not answer, I understand.
@ Mark and Holly:
Thanks for letting me be a fly on the wall.No problem
And thank you and anyone else on the wall for letting the dialogue take place!
Mark,
Are you asking for me supply evidence (proof) for why I believe there is God? I really am trying to answer the question of why.
1. I believe the Bible. I do not need to verify everything to accept it as Gods word. In my soul I know it is from God. I also believe the Bible has been corrupted by man and his agendas for power, etc. It may have lost something in translating, some of it may even have been lost, but I am sure it began from God.
2. My life and living confirms my belief. All the natural laws of energy, karma, power, etc are evidence to me that random can't take credit. The souls who have wandered into my life teaching me, have been too perfect - even the not so positives - to be less than divine appointments.
I am not trying to tell you to believe as and what I do. I am sharing what I think and trying to understand what you think, maybe learn something. There will always be more that I do not "know" or fully understand - I am ok with that. You have a stronger drive for "proof" than I do. The answers I have needed have been given to me, you are looking for the answers you need just like we all have to do.
I know you comtemplate God to be psychotic. Why create a race of people who will diasappoint just to wipe them out? I am not God and do not know. I trust God to know and be God.
I don't do yoga but I am giving the sitting tai chi a go. I clear energy channels in my body trying to heal. Tuning into the universe is something I love doing. The learning and resonating of natural laws comforts me and in no ways presents a God conflict in me. But that is me. You haven't found your answers yet.
Yes, I am lucky to have my husband and his love. My point was that he is very different than I. He is an engineer and thinks on planes that do nothing for me. He needs facts and to control variables, etc. He was entrenched in proof and such when we met.
He came to know that although he cannot define factually the things I believe, they are my realities. He lose tools. "Honey, can you do that thing and find it?" I go in the garage and tune in and within a few moments - viola - I can feel its location.
He cannot explain with his science but he knows that power is for real.
We are only at risk of another fight if we choose to abandoned civility. We can disagree vehemently and not have to fight. I know you find it revolting that something wants to debate about yeilding to God. I don't think you should have to embrace what the poster is believing one iota. The civil discussion I think they are looking for is with other christians. They went where they had a reasonable expectation to find such a debate. I think you want to debate it, but I think you would do better to post a thread to that effect attracting those who want to debate it with a nonbeliever.
I assure you I am not attacking you or what you believe. You are entitled to believe whatever you want. I don't care what category I get lumped into really. I have heard it all with ex husbands and being the only girl welder in an all male plant:)
Yes, I agree there are some harsh christians on hp who do more harm than good at times. If they were hunting you down on the atheist threads I would react.
Been told my analogies are bad at times - but I try my best. Is it sporting to go to a zoo hunting animals? No. It looks like certain nonbelievers seek out christians in their forum section and fire away. Not sporting. Make a thread clearly asking for them to come to you for debate on your terms - then there is honest sport. Did my best.
Yes - quality of life is a biggie for me to. Time bought with great pain sounds very bitter. I am with you on that. I am sorry your wife had to go through so much. Very sorry. Sometimes the lines get fuzzy and choice seems an oximoron.
I really am enjoying the engaging conversation and sharing of thoughts without the daggers. Chemo has significantly reduced my hearing, brought neuropathy that doesn't fully subside, and challenging chemo brain. I am giving the effort and hope we can continue. I may be sparse over the weekend - we have company coming out HollyHolly
Well let us leave it there for now. I do not need proof. I have my answers ( or at least some of them) and I am not asking for proof from you.
I am asking why you believe and you seem unable to express that. You just "know" the bible is God's word and because you can tune into a small amount of the life around us - this somehow proves that you are correct.
But - next time you do that - take a look at yourself and you are probably going to realize that something is missing. And that something is you. The personal, egotistical, self aware you.
This is one of the reasons I do not believe "I" will survive death. Whatever it is that makes me will almost certainly go back to where it came from in the first place. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
I think the bible has been bastardized and the message that we will return from whence we came has been totally lost with this political need to control the masses. Nothing I understand leads me to believe that my ego, my self awareness, my personality will survive. It just doesn't make any sense.
So - yes - for many reasons - I find the bible pretty disgusting. Whatever we could have learned from it is long demolished by the religion it spawned and I am pretty sure that attacking homosexuals, people who get a divorce whatever is not it. These are political divisions to prevent us from exploring the truth. The Catholic church spend many many man hours destroying knowledge for a reason. The truth will set you free and it has been obscured with this "Christianity".
I also find it difficult to have a reasonable conversation with some one who believes that I WILL BOW TO THE LORD! and homosexuality or abortion is a sin. Seriously - what do these people think they are doing having an opinion on what some one else does with their own body? Guaranteed to cause a fight.
In fact - I will go out of my way to engage these people and show them how offensive and divisive their beliefs are because I think that way of thinking is evil. But - what can you do? They think they have the word of a God and that is impossible to have a rational discussion with.
Even you cannot help yourself because you think you have the answer and - because I do not believe -
I choose in this instance not to take offense that you think I have not found my answers yet. Because I think I have - at least some of them - they are just not the same as yours.
Hard not to share the word of God though isn't it? And - being the word of god - it must be right. Hence the division.
So - no - I am sorry - I think this YOU WILL BOW BEFORE THE LORD! HOMOSEXUALS ARE DESTROYING THIS NATION! sort of Christianity need to be combated. It needs to be addressed and it is not possible to address it reasonably - I have tried.
I am going to continue to engage that sort of Christian and I am going to continue to explain to them how offensive this is.
Odd that I never, ever see you confront them.
Your argument that "random" cannot take credit is the same argument that has been used since the first person came across something they did not understand. "I cannot grasp how that could have come to be - therefore there must be a god," and it holds no water with me.
You just know the bible is right. I cannot accept that because - well - because it is wrong. It doesn't make sense on any levels that the earth was created specifically for us. In fact the universe was created with the sole intention of holding us. We are God's special children that will live forever - if..... None at all. And on that note - I will leave you with my favorite Douglas Adams quote.
"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it?
In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'
This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.' "
I really miss Douglas Adams.Mark,
Yes, we can leave it here and I am sorry I haven't better answered your question. I do want to clarify what I feel may be mistunderstood or poorly expressed on my part.
I am not saying I am correct. I am not saying you will find my answers to be your life answers anymore than we have identical life questions. Whatever you need to know and what answers you get from life are for you. I am very self aware - it is the core of where I (my soul) lives. If I wasn't so self aware I would be looking for someone elses answers rather than my own.
We seem to agree the Bible has been corrupted. I have no goal of trying to convince you that what you believe about it is wrong.
I am sure more than a few hubbers are wondering why we are having this conversation. We seem to have nothing in common and are diabolically opposed to one another. We all have an opinion on what will happen to everyone - some put it in words, So what? Have we been unable to have a rational discussion, a dialogue just because I believe in God? We have seen each other as people - people sharing thoughts civilly. I did not enter the thread thinking I would change your position nor did I have any fear about sustaining my view point. We were civil
If you took my comment - You haven't found your answers yet - to me you haven't found my God - that was not what I meant at all. I tried to explain it above. I hear you asking questions, I see you passionate about what you perceive as wrong answers, it looks like "you haven't found your answers yet". No judgement. Nor am I preaching my God to you or to grab on to my answers. Just an observation. I think you have assumed somethings. If you had all my answers by the way, I would think you copied
I do confront christians when I feel I need to, it is usually done through email though. There is an accountability that calls us to address things to each other. Not all respond kindly, some not at all. It is not the same as in a secular environment admittedly. Maybe I need to re evalute.
The argument I have against random is oddly similar to your argument against God. "I cannot grasp how that could have come to be - therefore there must be NO god,". (I added the NO)
I have no doubt you want to call out what you consider offensive. And I don't even fault you for it. Have you contemplated starting threads openly declaring what you want to debate so it isn't so much an ambush? Let those who want to debate christians debate christians?
Interesting quote, too
Have a good one Mark. I mean you no ill will. I'll try to be on Tuesday for a bit. Next week the surgeons and oncologists pitch what needs to be done.
HollyGood luck with that. I mean you no ill will either.
Sorry you cannot grasp that evolution is not random and "I don't know," is the best I can say to how it all started. I genuinely do not know. You do though. - God made it happen.
And god is beyond definition or understanding.
I prefer to continue to be open so I can say - I don't know - and having spent some considerable time studying the bible and contemplating what it says - I am pretty sure you are wrong and one of the infinite other possibilities is right.
I am also pretty sure there was - at some point - something worth having in the bible. But whatever it was has been lost, or is hidden from view because this constant conflict it causes just does not make any sense. And it is no good saying it doesn't cause conflict. The very idea that some one thinks they have a god's word to share is what causes the conflict.
"Hi there. My name is Mark - and I speak for God."
You yourself have admitted to needing to rethink some of what you previously learned from it. Which tells me you had taken some one else's answers and are now starting to develop your own. Which is great. Because I do not think you can get them from a book. Look at the nonsense some people come up with. And they are prepared to defend it to the death? Because God said so? Dear me.
I do not see a single solitary person here on these forums who I can say to myself - "Wow - they have really got their shit together - I want whatever it is they have got."
Probably less so from most of the professed Christians. Which tells me - none of them has got what it is supposed to offer.
Any way - I hope your treatment plan goes well and it has been a pleasure having a civil conversation for a change.Strong opinions come from strong people.
This forum is beautiful.
I'm happy to see two of my buddies get together like this. You've both got me a little teary. ♡
Thanks for letting the rest of us read it through.Hi Jen
Haven't seen you in a while. Been hoping things are getting better for you. The flowers are great out here now and I am so happy the weather is warming to the 90's. I even put away my electric bed warm this week
Yes, I have been enjoying this thread too Glad you could enjoy it too.
HollyThings get better, but then they just go back to worse again. Screw it, right? All I can do is step back and watch it happen.
I'm in a holding pattern right now. Soon as I get my strength back, you may find I'm living in a new city under a different name. Well, I'll keep my name. Unless HP lets me switch to "chicagojen" hee hee Or maybe pittjen... I know a few Detroit refugees who seem to like Pennsylvania quite a bit.
What matters is, I'm happy. I don't have a clue where I'll be working or living next fall - maybe I'll still be right here. Who knows. Frankly, don't even care right now.
I'm not too sure about your decision to put away your bed warmer. It's not quite Memorial Day yet... Y'know, they had some snow in the UP just a couple weeks ago.
I'll say thanks again for the honesty and openness as you fight through your battle. I believe that people learn how to be strong by watching how others cope.
What you write influences many people.
Well since I'm totally skipping work today, I suppose I'd better go write something. I'm glad I saw this. It's really cool that this whole thread went troll-free.
See? People really are respectful when asked. (Says the humanist.)
Go enjoy those flowers!Good luck wherever you end up...............
Chicago huh? Windy I hear.Windy, yep. But it has a strong publishing / printing industry. And, it's not too far away from my momma.
I'm digging through my closets & throwing out as much as I can stand to. Last night I pulled out an old CD - Best of Dire Straits. Are you a fan?
You made me think of "So long, and thanks for all the fish" this morning while I was listening to it. Now my brain will be swimming in Mark Knopfler and Douglas Adams all weekend.
My hubs should be an interesting mix, come Sunday night
LOL You can relax now.
That ain't workin!
Very jealous of you Mark!
Faybe Bay - nice rescue - should call you batman or something - earnest lives to fight another day - thank God
sorry Mark it had to be said - not every day we have a real live hero among us
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