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America's War on Christianity

Updated on November 5, 2013

Inspiration

I recently wrote a hub about Rick Santorum which outlined some of the really dumb and scary things he has said recently. I also outlined why I think his views are scary and dangerous for the country. If you missed the original hub, you can read it here: http://elani-lee.hubpages.com/hub/Stupid-Things-Rick-Santorum-Says

Most of the statements that I chose to list in the hub reflected Senator Santorum's religious views, which in turn reflect his vision for the country. As an agnostic, I find his views frightening because I feel that he has a problem with the Seperation of Church and State, and if elected will attempt to force his religious ideaology upon the American public.

Most of the comments were pretty positive and seemed to be in agreement with my assesment, however there was a commentor who disagreed. Although I didn't entirely agree with his comment, it was very well thought out, and it made me wonder why the extremely religious Christians don't see Rick Santorum as being a threat to religious liberties.


Do You Believe there is a War Against Christianty in the US?

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America's War on Christianity

Then it hit me...America is at war with Christianity, and it has been for a long time; as long as I can remember. Things that were just normal and accepted even 20 years ago are now not "politically correct". We can't say "Merry Christmas" around Christmas time, we have to say "happy holidays". Many organizations have taken the words "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance. We don't teach children in school anything that might mention Christianity (although the other religions are all generally mentioned).

It is no wonder that the Christians (especially the extremely devout) are trying to fight back. The liberals (and I am liberal) have been doing everything that they can to isolate Christianity and take all traces of it away from the public sphere, while at the same time celebrating any religion that is a minority in this country. I do not believe that this was the intent of the constitution. I do not believe that the intent was to make people feel like pariahs for expressing their beliefs in public, but rather to ensure that no religion would become a state religion, and that nobody would be forced to worship anything. It was to ensure that people were free to practice their own religion in their own way, but also free to not practice any religion if that were their choice.

I don't see why it has turned into an all or nothing issue. Why can't we have five minutes of quiet time in public schools, so that those children who chose to pray can do so quietly, while those who chose not to don't have to? Why can't we mention religion in the classroom as it applies to history? Why do we have to change the culture of America because some of our songs and pledges say "God" in them? Why can't someone say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter" without being ostracized?

I am agnostic, I don't believe in Jesus Christ as savior or the son of God, or any of that. However, I'm not going to be offended because someone says "Merry Christmas" to me. I think it is nice that they are being pleasant and offering a cheerful greeting for their holiday.

I think that if we, as a society, stopped ostracizing Christians for their beliefs, stopped trying to force their religion into the closet, we wouldn't have nut jobs like Rick Santorum getting so much support for his candidacy. If they didn't feel like they were fighting a war for their beliefs with the other side, they would see him for what he really is...a Christian radical.

People of any group start to feel threatned when their rights are taken away, and when people feel threatened it is easy for a radical to take over the group. We can't let a radical of any side take control of America. Everyone should have the right to chose their own religious beliefs, and nobody should feel threatened or "offended" because someone else mentioned their own religion.

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    • Cagsil profile image

      Cagsil 5 years ago from USA or America

      Did you actually think this hub through before you typed it? Just figured I would ask because it doesn't appear so. America isn't at war with Christianity and no such thing is happening. Over 80% of Americans are religious of some sort and that 80% want religious tyranny for the rest, so that G/god's word becomes law of the land. Thus, it voids individual freedom. As an advocate for rights, I don't mind people believing what they want, but I do have a problem when they think that their beliefs should also be imposed on others, negating that individual's rights.

      I prefer the separation of Church and State and want it in the most strict sense. There's NO need for "G/god" to be on the money. There's NO need for "G/god" to be in State funded schools or Federally funded schools. I have no problem with teaching the history of Christianity in the general sense either, just like all other religions.

      Under no circumstances should it in any way interfere with a school day, unless that school day is in a religious school.

    • profile image

      Sooner28 5 years ago

      You have an interesting hypothesis. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that liberals trying to push Christianity out of the public square completely is causing an overreaction, and leading to people like Rick Santorum rising to power. I wish that were the case, but history may suggest otherwise.

      Religious extremists has been around since man decided to form supernatural beliefs. The Catholic Church had the crusades and the Spanish inquisition, and this was when it was in power over most of the world! There also has been burning of witches and discrimination against homosexuals.

      I think some liberals do overreact at times to religion in the public square, but it can also be seen as a consciousness raising exercise. People become accustomed to the world around them when they grow up in it, and usually don't question whether it can be different. If everyone says Merry Christmas, or there are religious displays of the nativity scene on public property, people just go with it, even though there is a separation of Church and State. I personally don't care if someone tells me Merry Christmas, but I usually want to follow up and ask them if they believe I deserve ETERNAL TORTURE for not sharing their faith. Due to common courtesy, I've never actually done this. Anyone who believes such a thing though, deserves to be ostracized. Discourse just becomes so "normal" that people lose sight of the actual meaning of what they are saying.

      There is also no prohibition for practicing religion in school. At my high school, we had a moment of silence that we were free to do with what we wanted. We could pray, stare at the wall, or take a short nap! You are also free to form a religious group. The only prohibition is that it cannot be initiated by a faculty member, but they can be members and participate. However, I'm sure this still happens anyway.

      I think there is some truth to what you are saying. If people feel like they are being attacked, then they react accordingly. However, it could also be the case that Christianity is losing the former hold it once had on public policy. Politicians, on the left especially, are much less likely to bow down to the Church the way they did in the past. And of course, there are the extremists who want a theocracy, and if they had their way they would get it. When any major institution in a society loses power, it never goes down quietly.

      I hope I haven't come off as just being disagreeable. I voted this up!

    • Daughter Of Maat profile image

      Melissa Flagg 5 years ago from Rural Central Florida

      Christians have ostracized themselves by standing on street corners with a bullhorn yelling at me to save my soul or suffer eternal damnation. They ostracized themselves by burning people at the stake just for believing in something different. They ostracized themselves by condemning my own religion as satanic. Christianity is at war with itself, it is split in two, literaly. There are the christian fanatics, and there are the christian liberals. The fanatics believe everyone should believe as they do, and if they don't, they should die, and the liberals believe everyone should just back off, even though I'm going to hell. Watch the movie Red State, while it's extreme, that type of extremism is attempting to control our country.

      I'm one of those people that is actualy offended when someone says Merry Christmas to me and here's why. To me, when someone says Merry Christmas, it tells me this person hasn't taken the time to think "Maybe this person doesn't celebrate my holiday, maybe this person has different beliefs than I do." It's a constant reminder of how selfish humanity can be, not just the christians. I don't say happy Yule to everyone because not everyone celebrates my holiday and I acknowledge that. It's not just the words that I find offensive, it's what they say about the person who says them.

    • michiganman567 profile image

      michiganman567 5 years ago from Michigan

      You are going to get ostracized by your fellow Liberals. There is no place for God in the Democrat party, unless it is the God of Islam. They are cool with Allah.

    • Thinking Allowed profile image

      Thinking Allowed 5 years ago from Brooklyn, NY USA

      I was hoping this was sarcastic and I was waiting for the "just kidding" but it never came. As Cagsil implied, you really didn't think this through nor do any research before you typed this.

      The separation of church and state means our government doesn't promote any religion nor does it try to prevent you from practicing your religion. Adding "In God We Trust" to our money and "One Nation Under God" to our pledge (both added in the 1950's) promotes any monotheistic religion. Removing these words is NOT an attack on Christianity, it's REVERSING Christianities attack on the separation of church and state. These words FORCE nonbelievers, polytheists, and believers who, as a part of practicing their religion, do not display their faith publicly ('cause they've actually read their bibles Matthew 6:5-8), to acknowledge a single deity publicly. How do you not understand this as a CLEAR violation of separation of church and state?

      You CAN pray to yourself in school, teachers are not allowed to organize and lead prayer. You CAN teach the bible in school, it just can't be taught as religion. A little research is all you had to do http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/us/28religion.ht... .

      Christians DON'T WANT to pray silently, they DON'T WANT their book taught as just literature. They want us ALL to be subjected to their religious beliefs and when we say "enough is enough", THEY throw a hissy fit and say they're being attacked. Their desire to be persecuted, since that's the center piece of their religion, is why they ignore these FACTS about religion in school and in the public square.

      I as an atheist am NOT offend by "Merry Christmas". "Happy Holidays" is an attempt to be INCLUSIVE of ALL religions. That means it INCLUDES Christianity as well. Christians just CANNOT have this. They have to be the only show in town or else no deal. An attempt to include everyone is seen by them as an attack on them.

      You know why other religions are really not dealt with the same way Christianity is? Because those other religions are not trying to drag the ten commandments and a nativity scene in front of every public building! They try to force their beliefs into law and you wonder why their dealt with the way they are? Seriously?

      Leave it to a comedian... Jon Stewart put it this way "You've confused a war on your religion with not always getting your way".

    • JadeFitz profile image

      JadeFitz 5 years ago from Atlanta, GA

      Very interesting and I thought very apt for the times we are living in. I am a Christian but I do not follow one particular religion. I am not a liberal anymore and was pleasantly surprised at your insight and understanding. I do not know all of the US' history but have enjoyed reading and researching it over the years.

      PERSONALLY, I find Santorum a little too right wing even for me. But I have had similar thoughts to yours. Why can't there be 5 minutes of quiet time in school for those that want to spend it in prayer? So there are atheists and agnostics out there. That is their free will but taking away believer's rights is no different to accusing the believers of pushing their beliefs onto non-believers. It is definitely a mess and much has changed since I came to this country in the 90's.

      When I first came here I had an attitude of how great my country was and America was not the best place in the world, blah, blah, blah. It took some time and some growing up before I realized how great this country was and especially for those who aspire to be more. I began to love what this country stood for and actually grew away from my Socialist Liberal upbringing. I found this country to be such a refreshing change and the opportunities were amazing. I can't imagine living anywhere else especially after growing up in a country where I hardly knew anyone that went to church unless they were getting married or baptizing a child, it's perfectly normal to be on welfare as well as welcome numerous other non-citizens into the country and give them welfare to live on too, where the price of living is astronomical and the Prime Minister is paid an exorbitant wage and I had never heard of a tax return until I came to the "land of the free". Some Americans just don't realize how great they have it here and although I don't agree with a lot of what Santorum says, I would vote for him over another 4 years of Obama and the left's battle to get this country on a similar path as a lot of European countries.

      The countries in Europe are failing for a reason. Running a country, which aspires to be run in a more Socialist environment will eventually cause a collapse of the the system. You need an awful lot of money to run a country like that and unfortunately, people on welfare don't pay taxes.

      However, I am digressing from your article. I liked it and enjoyed the fact that you used common sense and understanding. And thank you for understanding how believers may feel at times.

      At Cagsil, did you read your response before responding? I think you need to check your facts. 80%??? Don't make me laugh. Also, not all Christians are gung ho right wing coalition either.

      At Daughter of Maat, are you bloody serious? Really, you are offended by a Merry Christmas because you would think I was being selfish. If you think for one second that in the joy of the season, Christmas being my favorite holiday, that I am going to think about not hurting anyone's feelings if I say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays, grow a spine. I have friends of all faiths and colors and oh yes two of my closest friends are "liberal" as is my mother and they couldn't care less about how I greet them during the month of December. Oh yes, I also have friends who are Atheists and they even come over for my huge English Christmas Day celebration. When someone tells me happy holidays I smile and respond with "Merry Christmas". To my Jewish friends I say Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah. People have been saying Merry Christmas for eons. And I'm quite sure they don't say it to be insensitive. My Hindu and Muslim friends back when I was in high school used to exchange gifts and cards for Christmas because they wanted to and not because they were forced to. I loved going to their weddings and we were taught all about their religion in school just as they were taught about Christianity. I think there is way more to worry about in this country than whether or not we get the greeting right during the """holidays""".

    • JadeFitz profile image

      JadeFitz 5 years ago from Atlanta, GA

      At Sooner 28: I enjoyed your comments too. I will say that my kids have never really been taught much about any religion in school and do not get any time for "prayer" or whatever it's called. My eldest classes himself as an Atheist though as he was taught the theory of evolution and Darwanism. Hypocritical???? I think so!

      At Cagsil: Research shows that 83 percent of Americans identify with a religious denomination, 40 percent state that they attend services nearly every week or more, and 58 percent say that they pray at least weekly. Despite this "seemingly high level of religiosity", only 9% of Americans in a 2008 poll said religion was the most important thing in their life, compared with 45% who said family was paramount in their life and 17% who said money and their career was paramount.

      From the early colonial days, when English and German settlers came in search of religious freedom, America has been profoundly influenced by religion. That influence continues in American culture, social life, and politics. This country was founded on religion. Several of the original Thirteen Colonies were established by settlers who wished to practice their own religion within a community of like-minded people: the Massachusetts Bay Colony was established by English Puritans (Congregationalists), Pennsylvania by British Quakers, Maryland by English Catholics, and Virginia by English Anglicans.

      And to all: Text of the First Amendment to the country's Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." It guarantees the free exercise of religion. The Supreme Court has "interpreted" this as preventing the government from having any authority in religion. Note that it was the SUPREME COURT that interpreted it that way.

      At Daughter of Maat: I am exercising my First Amendment right of freedom of speech and will say Merry Christmas to who I want, when I want and as many times as I want. Unless I have it wrong and the First Amendment only counts when it suits the needs of some but not to all. I didn't think so!!!!! What's next? Holiday Trees in our homes???

    • elijahtruth profile image

      elijahtruth 5 years ago from texas

      Santorum is a good man who can far exceed obama in running this nation, Rick has some aggressive ideas, yet it is the left/liberals who have caused all politicans to have to leave the path of steady tried and true ideaologies, and begin these radical agendas of so many, so at best Santorum is a moderate conservative that needs support from all Christians and society as a whole or we could all find ourselves in a hole that cannot be filled in or dug out of by anyone!

      Yes the war on Christianity has made our nation much weaker, and the moral base, as politic's now search's for a ground that will please everyone, which cannot be done, if anyone thinks even for a brief moment that our nation still stands due to gays or liberals or imigrants, they are sadly mistaken, only do to the Christians who founded and built this nation are any of us safe and secure in the midst of what is now still a Mighty nation of God, but fools attack its base from all corners of earth and within, so pray you Christians, and pray those who bitch and complain wanting new laws and new morals for our people, pray the christians continue to prevail for God and Country, praying your confusion does not become the new normal! For evidence of this being the gneration in which He now retakes earth and removes the wicked from among the Just Matthew 13:49-50 go to http://adamandeveinaction.blogspot.com/ and http://www.adamandeveseedgatheringministry.com and for free faith based material and even word on atheism, go to http://thehistorianbookstore.blogspot.com/ ... Much respect to all those of God's book of Life, all others prepare for His vengeance Deuteronomy 32:43...

    • Daughter Of Maat profile image

      Melissa Flagg 5 years ago from Rural Central Florida

      If you all believe in first amendment rights why are you firing back at me for my OPINION? And you all proving my point, you don't give a damn about how anyone else feels. You're still going to say Merry Christmas whether anyone else likes it or not simply because that's YOUR belief, thats not selfish?

      It's a matter of opinion, I don't see any reason to become angry over someone expressing their opinion. Firing back at me like that is truly not necessary.

      Jadefist: if you do some research they were originally called Yule trees prior to christianity taking over. So holiday trees might be very appropriate. The point I was trying to make is that we all need to coexist, and that means taking into consideration other people's feelings.

    • JadeFitz profile image

      JadeFitz 5 years ago from Atlanta, GA

      Daughter of Maat: You are correct that the tree was originally called Yule tree as was Yuletide, both of which were absorbed into the celebration of Christmas. Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a winter period and event that was initially celebrated by the historical Germanic peoples and some neighboring peoples as a religious festival, though it was later absorbed into, and equated with, the Christian festival of Christmas. The earliest references to the event are by way of indigenous month names (lasting between what is now mid-November and early January), whereas the event may have been centered on or around Midwinter (winter solstice). Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin, increased supernatural activity, and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Modranicht. There are lots of very interesting stories regarding how that happened, which are too numerous to quote but it mainly stems from when rulers were turned to Christianity and stopped celebrating their pagan ways, such as King Haakon I of Norway. In England we still have Yule Logs, which is a delicious dessert that I absolutely love and I have heard the word Yule used on occasion during Christmas in England.

      You are also right in regards to expressing your opinions but to make a sweeping statement and imply that when someone says Merry Christmas they are being selfish and not thinking of anyone's feelings but their own was a little much. I just know that I can quite assure you that for myself and the friends and family members I have they are not being selfish or unfeeling when they say Merry Christmas. They are just continuing a tradition that has been handed down to them from other generations. If someone is offended when I say Merry Christmas they are welcome to correct me and say that they don't celebrate Christmas and I will wish them whatever holiday they celebrate as well as another Merry Christmas as that is what I celebrate. For instance I may tell my Jewish friend Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukah at the same time and she will reiterate the same to me. But if I'm at the Macy's counter after making a purchase I'm not going to guess what religious background someone is or what holiday they celebrate. It's Merry Christmas and so far I have only had one person come back with a Happy Holidays in response.

      All that being said, it does not give me the right to be rude to you and in my defense I did try to amend my post within the 5 minutes allowed but it didn't save any of my changes when I re-posted it. Therefore, I sincerely apologize for being overly direct with my comments. I tend to be very straight forward and direct and say how it is. If I am selfish or unfeeling I will be the first to admit it but in the case of my expressing a Merry Christmas you can not judge someone or anyone you do not know personally. That would be like saying that all Germans are Nazis or that all white people are prejudiced. I don't think you can tar all people with the same brush. But I will apologize for being rude.

    • Daughter Of Maat profile image

      Melissa Flagg 5 years ago from Rural Central Florida

      I appreciate your apology and understand that debates of this nature can get a bit "hot." Because of this, I take no offense to your previous posts and wholeheartedly accept your apology.

      That said, I think you may misunderstand what I mean which would be my fault as I may not have been as clear as I should have been. I'm not going to ignore someone who says Merry Christmas to me, and I do appreciate the sentiment they most likely are attempting to share. But, as a pagan, I personally feel, and let me make that clear, it's merely a personal feeling that some who say Merry Christmas do so without thought to how that greeting may be received. To me, this is a selfish way to think. Based on history, christianity doesn't have the greatest track record when it comes to understanding another person's beliefs and accepting them. I also run into quite a bit of animosity because of my own beliefs, many of which have said Merry Christmas to me specifically because I am pagan. The fact that christmas absorbed the pagan fire festival of Yule, the winter solstice, I think you can see how I might come to feel this way. So, my opinion may be a bit tainted because of personal experience.

      The point I really want to get across is the idea that we need to think about what we say before we say it, and not just when it comes to holiday greetings. Can you see how the Merry Christmas to a pagan might be perceived as selfish? It's important that we try to understand other's perspectives, there is much to be learned by really understanding such opinions. And I appreciate your insight into the other side of the merry christmas greeting.

      Again, I appreciate your apology, and if I was rude in anyway, I also apologize.

    • JadeFitz profile image

      JadeFitz 5 years ago from Atlanta, GA

      No worries whatsoever. I do understand much better now what you were referring to. I did interpret your original comments as that anyone saying the phrase was pretty much being rude and insensitive and just stuck up for myself.

      Christianity certainly does not have a great track record and quite frankly that is why I tend to stay away from organized religion. I will also admit that I celebrate Christmas with my family more because I just love all the folk lore and customs that come with it. Just watching my son's face as he listens to how Father Christmas comes down the chimney just gives me a thrill. I was devastated when our eldest finally admitted he didn't believe in Father Christmas anymore. LOL!

      What really does crack me up is that it originally wasn't a holiday to celebrate Jesus' birth. Christmas Day originates from a pagan holiday, and it's roots can also be traced as far back as the Romans. Christians use December the 25th to observe Christ's birth and a lot of the Eastern countries use January 7th.

      When all is said and done, when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas you could just turn around and say, "Oh you are pagan too. What a small world." I'd pay to see the look on someone's face if you did that. LOL!

      On another note I am very interested in how you became a pagan, whether it was by upbringing or by a personal choice when you were older. Might make a really interesting article to read. :)

    • Daughter Of Maat profile image

      Melissa Flagg 5 years ago from Rural Central Florida

      I did actually write a hub on how I became pagan. I was born Catholic! lol

      That would be an interesting comment! I'll have to try that! The face would be priceless!

      What's really annoying about being pagan is having to hide it. I live in an area that is deeply christian (there's a baptist church on my road!) and the main reason we live here is for the privacy. We live in the country, everyone keeps to themselves, and our closest neighbor is at least half a mile away. My landlord is one of those christians that stands on the corner with a bullhorn. So my personal experience with christianity comes from both sides of the track!

      I'm glad we cleared up any misunderstandings, we could probably learn alot from each other! :D

    • Elani-Lee profile image
      Author

      Elani-Lee 5 years ago from Los Angeles

      I am really glad that this hub opened up such a great discourse on the subject. That was the whole point.

      @cagsil and thinking allowed - yes, I did think about it before I typed it. This wasn't meant to be a factual piece of reporting, it was an opinion piece. I appreciate that you joined the discourse, but I would also appreciate it if you could express your opinions without belittling mine. I truly hope that most Christians in this nation really don't want to force their religious beliefs upon everyone else. Maybe that is why I defend them.

      @Sooner28, no you didn't come off as disrespectful at all. I really enjoyed your comment. You are right, there will always be religious extremists. I just can't believe that 40% of the republican party falls into this category. Like I said above, I hope they just feel threatened are are trying to fight for things that they feel they are losing.

      @jadefitz & daughterof Maat - I am really glad that you were able to better understand each other through comments on my hub! I appreciate the insight from both of you, and DaughterofMaat, I am sorry for what you have had to go through with Christians. Some towns do tend to have more radicals than others, but my experience with Christians is most of them are just decent people who want to be free to follow talk about their religion just as everyone else does. I have dealt with a few of the radicals, but for me they are few and far between.

      @elijahtruth...I'm sorry but I think you missed my point a little. I don't want America to be a Christian nation. I support Gay marriage. I support some type of immigration reform (even wrote a hub with my own plan on it!)I don't think Christianity has a place in law-making. I just think that individuals who are Christian shouldn't have to feel ostracized for it.

      @michiganmann - I can't tell whether you are being facetious or not. Do you agree with my assessment? Or do you have reason to disagree? I would like to hear your opinion.

    • Thinking Allowed profile image

      Thinking Allowed 5 years ago from Brooklyn, NY USA

      @Elani-Lee, if my comment seems harsh, it's because, from your provocative title to the information in the hub, you allow people to confirm false beliefs. I point that out in this hub I wrote http://thinkingallowed.hubpages.com/hubdata/hub/Ho... . I doubt you will take this hub down or correct it and THAT'S what leads to the constant conflict not some perceived war waged by us. The reality is the EXACT opposite of what you wrote. It just is. Now, however, those that believe the lie of your hubs title can point to you and say "aha, even one of there own agrees with us". You give cover to people like elijahtruth, JadeFitz, and michiganmann to push forward with their 100% false beliefs which, by their comments, they are doing.

      You are allowed to have your opinion but when your opinion is based on bad information, I will point it out. You got everything backwards. You really did and I don't think you plan on correcting that, so yes, it does make me angry and shows in my comments.

      Prayer not being allowed in school is just FALSE. God being in our pledge is NOT a part of our culture. It was a knee jerk reaction by Christians to differentiate us from the "Godless" communists. This was added in the mid to late 50's! They did this IN SPITE of what our constitution says. Saying "happy holidays" is an attempt to be INCLUSIVE, NOT to ostracize Christians. Who the hell is proposing laws to stop Christians, individuals, private citizens from saying "Merry Christmas"? It's really simple: If you work for the government, you can't promote religion. If you don't work for the government, have at it. Where's the war? Where's the attack in that?

      You mentioned certain things being accepted 20 years ago not being ok today. Well, yeah. Christians have been the majority for a long time and therefore have gotten their way for a long time. It's NOT that these things were correct, acceptable, or even legal. WE didn't have a strong enough voice, so we didn't saying anything out of fear as is what happens with most in the minority. I'm a black person. Do you really want me to go into why something being accepted for a long is not an argument you should make? Simply put, those that have been in charge, were/are Christians and have been able to get away with it. We are finally standing up, NOT to say we're taking away your rights, but to say, you can no longer have SPECIAL rights. You should have the same rights as everyone else. That's a "war" on Christianity?

    • Elani-Lee profile image
      Author

      Elani-Lee 5 years ago from Los Angeles

      @thinkingallowed - The only think I thought was harsh about your ogiginal comment was that you said I didn't think before I wrote. I did think about it, a lot, and my conclusions are different than yours. They are not based on bad information. I try to see all sides of an issue and I can see how Christians would percieve the current atmosphere as being like a war on Christianity.

      In regards to prayer in public school, it wasn't allowed at my school. In addition, kids have gotten in trouble for it in other areas:

      This was a college where kids were suspended and threatened with expulsion over praying for a sick teacher, with the teacher's consent: http://www.wnd.com/2009/04/94397/

      There have been other cases where kids are threatened with suspension for religious activities, although the schoolboard always insists it is for a different reason, such as disrupting the walkways or something similar.

      http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/high-school-s...

      http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/12-washington-sta...

      In the first case, the kids were "tebowing", and I don't think the intent was religious, but it was turned into that. However, even if the kids were warned to not do this in the hallway, what school suspends kids for blocking a hallway? Doesn't that seem a bit harsh for a gesture, whether it is religiously affiliated or not?

      In the second case, there isn't much information as to where exactly the prayer group was meeting. If it was in the middle of the walkway, then asking them to move shouldn't have been a problem. But according to the article, they were quiet and non-disruptive. They chose to have the group in public so that others could join if they so chose. I understand the getting reprimanded for disobeying a faculty member, but was a suspension really necessary? Couldn't a better compromise have been reached?

      In regards to the phrase "merry christmas", its not just the government that is against it. Many retailor stores have told their employees that they couldn't say it, or risk getting fired. I think I remember hearing about it from Macy's on the news this past holiday season, but here is an article from 2005 about Target: http://www.debbieschlussel.com/790/schlussel-exclu...

      I agree that the government has nothing to do with this story, and that it should not get involved in this case. But my point isn't about only the government, it is about our society as a whole. Is saying "merry Christmas" or "happy Hanukkah" or "happy Kwanza" or "happy Ramadan" or anything else a reason to be fired? I never thought of any of these statements as selfish or an attempt by someone to push their religious views on me, it is simply a way for different people to spread their own holiday cheer. What is wrong with that?

      I agree that nobody should have special rights. I feel that in America, we are celebrating every other type of religous belief, yet ostrasizing Christianity simply because it has been in the majority for awhile. I do agree that many things are still tilted towards the side of Christianity, such as nativity scenes outside of public buildings (if we have nativity scenes at Christmas, we should be able to have Hanakkuh scenes, Ramadan scenes, Darwain scenes, Solstice scenes, and every other type of scene for every other religion) and the 10 commandments being posted.

      I also agree that just because something always has been, that doesn't mean it should continue. I am a woman, and we have also been historically subjugated. However, I don't think that we should subjugate men in response to that. In the same way, I don't think Christianity should be subjugated for the sake of every other type of religious belief just because it has subjugated others in the past. We need to learn from the past and do better, not use the past an excuse to behave poorly in the future.

    • Elani-Lee profile image
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      Elani-Lee 5 years ago from Los Angeles

      Oh, I forgot one thing...I chose a provoctive title on purpose to start a dialouge on the issue. I believe the only way to understand one another is to talk about these hot-button types of issues. Keeping them hidden will only serve to widen the gaps between people. You will always have people like Elijiahtruth, such firm believers that they will never be able to understand a point of view from the other side, and you will always have people like Michiganmann who only want to write sarcastic remarks and don't want to join the discourse. However, you will also get people like you and I, who want to understand each other, and jade & daughterofmatt, who through their discussion on the comment board have gained a better understanding of each other and perhaps each gained a little perspective on a different worldview. I think that little things like that help make the world a better place.

    • Thinking Allowed profile image

      Thinking Allowed 5 years ago from Brooklyn, NY USA

      The student praying with the teacher took place in a public school. The teacher is a faculty member therefore they work for the government. They just can't take part in prayer like that. The prayer group was not preventing from praying, they were just asked to do it in a room and not in the common area but they refused. Both examples prove my point. These are 2 instances of people trying to get away with something they've been used to getting away with, NOT examples of some war against them. The rules that have ALWAYS been the rules were just being enforced. They just don't like that. The rules shouldn't apply to them is all I see.

      The Tebowing story is something everyone heard about. Other than speculation and some wanting there to be more to the story, there's nothing religious here. Tebowing became a phenomenon like planking. Once it became a pop-culture "thing" it had nothing to do with religion.

      Now whether or not the punishments were too harsh can be argued but, that happens sometimes when any rules are broken. It happens a lot especially when you're not used to enforcing certain rules because you're used to overlooking these things. Religion overstepping its bounds has been overlooked for a long time so it will be bumpy before we get the reaction to it right.

      Retail stores are private companies and they can run them however they want. They have customers of all religions and want to be inclusive of them all to make more money. In the current environment of some of us saying, enough is enough, they take notice because they know we speak with our dollars too. A business can tell you what to say when you pick up the phone and how to dress if you work for them. If you refuse to do those things, you can get fired. I don't see how not greeting customers the way they want you to is any different from that. Again, this is an example someone deciding finally to not ignore the rest of us, NOT Christians being ostracized. Any complaints regarding that are simply cries of "hey, I wanna be special".

      So again, Christianity is NOT being subjugated nor ostracized. It's just being made clear that they have to share too and they're throwing a fit.

    • Thinking Allowed profile image

      Thinking Allowed 5 years ago from Brooklyn, NY USA

      I almost forgot to mention your title as well lol. I know what it was for. My next hub is going to be "Democrats and Republicans, no need to fight. You both suck" lol. So turst me, I get the reason for the title.

    • wba108@yahoo.com profile image

      wba108@yahoo.com 5 years ago from upstate, NY

      Your so right, America is at war with Christianity. The Separation of church and State, was only intended to be a institutional separation, another words we as a country are not to have a government imposed christian denomination as our state religion. But our federal government was to encourage a non-sectarion promotion of Christianity, while our state and local governments were to be free to promote any denomination they wanted to.

    • Cagsil profile image

      Cagsil 5 years ago from USA or America

      Hey JadeFitz, do you always come to other people's hubs and begin arguments? And, I read my response to this hub as I typed. What's your excuse?

    • JadeFitz profile image

      JadeFitz 5 years ago from Atlanta, GA

      Hi Cagsil. I am so sorry you feel that way but there was no argument. All I did was research your "I read it as I typed it" response to the initial hub writer's article and responded with my findings. If you want to call that an argument, so be it. After all, last time I checked this was a free country. If one wants to make comments that could be taken offensively or disproved upon further research then one should expect a response. How you interpret that is up to you. I can not be responsible for your feelings just as you can not be responsible for mine. Your opinions and my opinions are just that, "opinions". What I do find ironic is that you seem offended that your stinging comment to Elani-Lee was used back at you! It was OK for you to say that to her but not OK to have someone direct your own line back at you. :) In the future I will be more sensitive and not respond to your comments as I don't want you to think I am being argumentative. Have a lovely Sunday!

    • JadeFitz profile image

      JadeFitz 5 years ago from Atlanta, GA

      Hi Thinking Allowed, you make some interesting comments and I appreciate a lot of your insight. The only thing I found to be a little off was you stating that you thought Elani-Lee was giving cover to people such as me and my 100% false beliefs. I am not commenting for anyone else but myself.

      Most of my comments were pertaining to my experiences over here and how I perceive things from a personal standpoint having lived in both countries. I stood up for myself in regards to why I say Merry Christmas and that I didn't want to be thought as selfish and rude because I want to say Merry Christmas.

      The only facts I posted was the research I did in regards to someones's comments about 80% of the people in this country being Christians and their need for religious tyranny. My findings were directly quoted from "Wikipedia".

      I just wanted to point these things out as my beliefs are not wrong just are your's are not wrong. They are just our beliefs and/or opinions. Thanks for the other interesting comments though as I completely agree with your last comment. I think both sides suck too. :)

    • I Saw Marty profile image

      I Saw Marty 5 years ago

      You know, if an admitted agnostic liberal sees it then it's far more obvious than most people think!

      I not only appreciate your hub I think the negative reaction and personal attacks you received ("thought you were being sarcastic," "did you think before you wrote this?", etc.) proves beyond any doubt that you are 100% correct in saying that there is a war against Christianity in this country. Voted up from me.

    • Elani-Lee profile image
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      Elani-Lee 5 years ago from Los Angeles

      1st I want to say sorry for not getting back to this for 2 weeks....life sometimes gets in the way.

      Thinking allowed - If you google "suspended for praying in school" or something like that, those are the stories that come up. I agree that the facts don't always support it, but the perception is there, and that is what this is really about, people's perception.

      Now with that being said, I really don't want everyone to think that I want the U.S. to be a "Christian nation". I just don't think Christianity should be excluded the way it is. I don't think religion should be forced into hiding. I don't think any religion should be forced into hiding. Why can't we have a nativity scene at Christmas, but a Solstice scene for the 21st? Why can't we celebrate every religion openly? Humanity has tried theocracies, those don't work. We have tried aboloshing all religion, that didn't work. Why not try being all inclusive?

    • Thinking Allowed profile image

      Thinking Allowed 5 years ago from Brooklyn, NY USA

      Here's the problem: Who's forcing religion to go into hiding? Who's calling for that? You're accepting THEIR premise of being persecuted but the reality is just not that. THEY won't own up to what they've done to cause the reaction they're receiving. They just focus on the reaction itself. How many Jewish groups are dragging menorahs in front of government buildings? How many Buddhists want a bust of Buddha in each classroom? What we ACTUALLY see time and time again, if we're being honest, whether it's the 10 commandments, nativity scenes, or prayer, is Christians trying to force this on everyone else. I'm not picking on them by pointing this out. This is just the REALITY of the situation that they need to own up to but they never do.

      "Why can't we have a nativity scene at Christmas but a Solstice scene for the 21st?" Because a solstice is an event, not a religion. Acknowledging the solstice is like acknowledging a season or day lights savings time. A nativity scene is exclusively religious. Government shouldn't be promoting religion, period. You, however, if you want a nativity scene in front of your house, go for it. If you want to knock on my door and tell me about Jesus, go for it (I've let Jehovah's witnesses in, but they didn't stay long). Wanna pray in the street? Go for it. Who's stopping you (them)?

      I fail to see where they're being stopped from doing anything other than not using the government to strong arm the rest of us. OTHER religions ARE FINALLY being included and CHRISTIAN'S have an issue with this, not anyone else. This is just the reality.

    • Elani-Lee profile image
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      Elani-Lee 5 years ago from Los Angeles

      Thinking allowed - I do agree with you on some points. Sometimes Christians take things too far. I absolutely do not agree with laws that promote Christianity (like Rick Santorum is trying to push). I do not agree with teaching religion as an "alternate theory" to science. Some of this stuff is completely ridiculous.

      However, there are some things that I don't think are ridiculous. In Santa Monica, atheist groups got mad that there was a park that showed a bunch of nativity scenes aroung Christmas time, so they complained and got the rules changed to a lottery-type system for space. The atheist groups and ended up getting a vast majority of the public spaces to promote their message, which was often just a riducule of Christianity. Here are the issues with this: 1. They took a majority of the spaces. The city hall was trying to be fair, but it didn't turn out that way. I think a fairer way would be to have each type of group get an equal amount of spaces, so one message doesn't over power the rest. 2 (and the main problem I had with it) is the ridicule. So you are an anthiest who doesn't believe in Christianity...why does that mean you have to belittle those that do believe in it? You can have your space and write messages about Darwin or whatever, but you don't have to be cruel about it.

      Things like that are why I think there is a war on Christianity. It isn't enough to be included, but it seems that other groups (maybe not the governement, but to be PC the governement goes with it) want to exclude and belittle Christianity. It doesn't need to be that way.

      Also, I know a solstice is an event, but Pagans and Wiccans see it as a spiritual and religious event as well, which is why I used it as an example.

      I enjoy hearing your point of view. It is nice to have an open honest debate about serious issues with someone without resorting to mud slinging.

    • Jason R. Manning profile image

      Jason R. Manning 5 years ago from Sacramento, California

      @ Elani-Lee

      First I want to say how much I appreciate your hub, your honesty and willingness to look at a growing social disparity. Obviously there are members of hubpages whom rather demean one of their own. One particular chap is adept at alienating everyone who doesn’t fall in-line with HIS exact thinking. Nevertheless, others have opened up a splendid conversation because of you.

      Honest Christians are willing to admit our own sins, and the sins of our forefathers, we do not see that from our detractors. It should be very clear to anyone who follows the media, how regularly Christians are put down, caste as ignorant, violent and unfit to father children. Equally, the opposite view is held as the champion and the only true path to enlightenment and betterment of mankind. I find it sad how the mirror appears “out of order” to the far left. Both sides need to admit that perfection is unattainable and at our core, we both want what’s best, it just happens to look very different for each. Thank you so much for the opportunity to talk about this. Cheers.

    • Elani-Lee profile image
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      Elani-Lee 5 years ago from Los Angeles

      Thanks Jason. I like to keep an open mind about things, and I try to be fair when looking at issues. I was really happy that this hub opened up an honest dialect about the issue. Things like this need to be discussed, not held in private. Keeping them private always makes things worse. Thanks again for the comment.

    • elijahtruth profile image

      elijahtruth 5 years ago from texas

      A war on Christianity is a war on the faith and theme and theology which had the courage to write a constitution like no other nation, a nation that even allows bigots and christianophobes to speak their mind! If atheists would have settled and wrote such it would not be a constitution, it would not exist but dictatorship would, ask Castro! ASK Lenin, ask Hitler who claimed all beliefs especially satanic ideals! As you see with so called liberals all dictators trying to bring revolution to any country start off saying we must be liberal and liberated, they are trying to control us, we must make the goverment pay for our medical and food and clothing, and then when in power they make none have anything accept depression and oppression!

      For evidence of the God of the Constitution having had enough go to the hub at https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/THE-LORDS... and on the links near the bottom of the page are sites of undeniable waking truth! Also go to the newly published Historian debate Symposium where many go but few can answer the question there which asks for three answers to one brief question! Respect to all those of God's seed/Adam's seed.... It has Begun

    • Elani-Lee profile image
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      Elani-Lee 5 years ago from Los Angeles

      Elijah truth - What God of the constitution? I do not believe that the constitution is a religios document, it is a secular document, written by men who, for the most part, were Diests.

      I am not really sure what you are trying to tell us with your post. Could you please clarify?

    • profile image

      ElijahTruth 5 years ago

      Mighty Daughter of The Only God Elani-Lee, merely stating facts of how all great nations of the past began their down fall if settled/founded by the Tribes of Adam Christ Deuteronomy 32:8, was always due to leaving the founding fathers/God's way instilled that built the nation, there are the way of building nations, and the way of ending them, we are in the later as we speak { King James and Greek Septuagint for the 32:8 verse given above }

      And I was also giving links at the site/hub to awake and make believer's and prepare us for a great historic gathering of God's seed of Adam!{Matthew 5:5} Go to the Adam and Eve in Action blog spot and the Adam and Eve seed gathering Ministry link on the hub given in the previous comment! The evidences now given us by God's word and Science are undeniable! Go to the newly published Historian Faith and Atheism Debate Symposium link also on the Hub page link above in previous comment and give three answers to one question, many people visit the site, but few can answer properly! Much Respect to Elani-Lee

    • Ericdierker profile image

      Eric Dierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I surely did like your hub. Santorums have no plce rallying my people of love behind a hate podium.

      But you should have stated that you were agnostic right out of the bucking shoot. Credibility requires disclosure befor keywords and intros.

      As a Christian I still appreciate your views

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