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People Who Don't Believe In Concentration Camps-Holocaust Deniers.

Updated on June 27, 2012

People who do not believe the Holocaust ever happened are called Holocaust Deniers. They generally believe the German Government had no official policy or intention of extermination of the Jews. There were no concentration camps, gas chambers, or transportation to concentration camps. Many Holocaust Deniers openly state that the Holocaust is a hoax, a Jewish conspiracy to help Jews become better people at the expense of others. The main focus on Holocaust Deniers are gas chambers and Jews. After all only Jews were sent to Concentration Camps, if they even existed.


On top is the place were gas was pumped into this Nazi Gas Chamber.
On top is the place were gas was pumped into this Nazi Gas Chamber.
Only picture of Nazi Gas Chamber in Jan Karsk  Report.
Only picture of Nazi Gas Chamber in Jan Karsk Report.

A man named Jan Karsk wrote a report that gas chambers were not only, and not built very well, but it was impossible to gas 6 million Jews to death. The Holocaust Deniers believe what he wrote, that gas chambers were very small, and only a few Jews died during WW11. This hub will focus mostly on concentration camps and the people who died in them. People like the Gypsies, the Elderly, and the people who had mental problems.

There are Four major concentration camps, which the deniers say did not exist. They are named Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau, and Treblinka. But, there were actually 23 concentration camps. The USHMM is an encyclopedia of the camps and ghettos. 1933-1945. Volume 1, Focusing on SS- Run Concentration Camps.

Why do Holocaust Deniers only focus on Gas Chambers? Each concentration camp was different.

Auschwitz- Many of the of the executions took place outside the camp. Large pits had been dug. Soldiers would line people up in front of the pit, the simply shot them in the head. One by one, each time a man would fall into the pit, another would be lined up. This happened over and over. People in Auschwitz also died because of starvation, and because they became very sick. They were so sick, they just simply died. However, the gas chambers were also used, starting in Autumn of 1914.-

Buchenwald- The second camp the Holocaust Deniers claim did not exist had a program for medial experiments. The program for medical experiments was started on the people in the camp in 1941. There were so many medical experiments that en entire hub could be written about each one of them. As a result of these medical experiments many people died. The hub cannot describe the medical experiments in detail because it would be too graphic. However, information can be found at The Jewish Virtual library.org

Dachau- The Holocaust Deniers believe that Dachau may have existed, but it was not a bad place. This was a good camp, because it did not just have Jewish people. This camp had other people, so they could associate with each other. Some of the people in this camp were German Communists, Jehovah Witnesses who protested against Hitler, Social Democrats, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and people with Mental Issues. Part of this camp was also used for medical experiments. Many people in this camp were killed in the gas chambers, but once again people were shot, starved, and some got sick or simply died in their sleep.

Treblinka- The last camp this hub is going to focus on is Treblinka which was located in forests North East of Poland. Treblinka was known among many Nazis as the 'Extermination Center'. Many horrors happened at Treblinka and came from testimonies of the Nazi Soldiers who were there. Their names are Willi Mantz, Kurt Franz, and SS Oberscharfuerer Heinrich Metthes.

There is so much evidence, history, books, films, pictures, and even testimony about Concentration Camps. The horrors or Concentration Camps and the millions of Jews, Gypsies, Jehovah Witnesses, the Elderly People, the list goes on and on. These people were gassed to death, shot, starved, died from sickness, or even medical experiments.

With all this evidence, why do the Holocaust Deniers think the Holocaust did not happen? Since they think it is a " Jewish Conspiracy" perhaps the Holocaust Deniers are racist against the Jews. Perhaps they do not understand, the evil of racism.



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      Larry Wall 4 years ago

      Amen

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Thank you Larry,

      I just pray history never repeats itself.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      I understand your feelings tabitha. I can feel it also, without even visiting the museum. Denying that it ever happened makes me feel sick.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 4 years ago

      Michele you wrote this excellent Hub a year ago and it continues to attract attention. This is the hallmark of what a good Hub should be. You picked a topic, which was important topic, and made everyone remember what happened during that terrible time.

      Keep up the good work.

      Larry

    • profile image

      tabitha 4 years ago

      I think I was both- angry and shocked. Visiting the memorials etc. caused a strange feeling I'll never forget. Most of my former classmates had similar feelings, too. And again thanks for this article.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Maybe you didn't cry tabitha because you were in shock. That a reason people don't cry when they go to the museums. Another is anger. I can understand both of those.

    • profile image

      tabitha 4 years ago

      We saw a bathroom in Theresienstadt with maybe twenty sinks and mirrors on two walls and in the middle showers. Many of us wondered how good everything still looked (after 60 years) and our guide told us that this bathroom was never used by the prisoners. It was only there to make some people believe that KZ's weren't that bad.

      Today I still wonder how I managed not to cry when I saw all this.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      tabitha

      Your comment is fantastic. I had not heard of of bathrooms being built for bathrooms being built for red cross and others to pretend that the prisoners had acceptable living conditions.

      Thank you so much for letting me know that information.

      In the Holocaust Museum there is a room that holds shoes, only shoes that children, who lost their parents and their lives. I have never visited the museum, I know I would cry.

      Thank you so much for your comment.

    • profile image

      tabitha 4 years ago

      I just discovered this good article. As a German who have visited Buchenwald and Theresienstadt when I was in school I can't understand how anyone can deny the Holocaust or the existence of Concentration camps.

      The problem with many Holocaust deniers is that they are trying to measure the Nazis with normal moral standards. But the Nazis were not just evil people (like a thief or so). They were even worse than evil.

      For example in some KZ's the Nazis built bathrooms and so on. The deniers say the Nazis wouldn't have built bathrooms for people they wanted to kill. In fact these bathrooms were built for observers from the International red Cross and others to pretend the prisoners had acceptable living conditions. The prisoners were never allowed to use this bathrooms.

      It's very sad that articles like this are necessary today. People should know about the Holocaust.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Thank you Ed, and Express10, the thing that worries me the most, is the fact that if you forget the past, it can repeat itself.

    • ahorseback profile image

      ahorseback 4 years ago

      I think that holocaust denying is as new as the modern media itself ! Many in this high tech society can't seem to separate disney mentality from living reality ! From the earliest learning days of my life ,I have had a facination with these acts of history , Particularly the second world war era . first hand accounts of the greatest generation soldiers , my father for one , I read and read about these horrible acts until I was satisfied that the real answer is that the evil that created this atrosity is the same evil that lies within each and every human heart that beats ! Why should it surprise us that a man or woman can look at all of the available evidence ,film , written , actual accounts of witness' , and still deny the truth ! Perhaps its just the pure and natural ignorance that plagues mankind to begin with ! What an absolute and naked insult to the survivors and the liberating soldiers ! Michele , you sure opened a awesome subject for us to chew on ! Awsome job !.....Ed

    • Express10 profile image

      H C Palting 4 years ago from East Coast

      I don't understand why so many people think that denying an injustice of this magnitude is okay. If nothing else, it shows that person is either horribly uninformed, making money off their denials (through books, seminars, and the like), or would rather deny than show sympathy or apologize.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Vlad, you are so correct. I am also grateful. If it were not for Jesus, I could not be forgiven for my sins. For that God is so amazing, Jesus is amazing. Thank you so much for your comment.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

      How can one fallow someone when he does not believe? Action is result of what we believe. I love Jews because Jesus loved them and was one of them. God so loved the world that he gave His own Son whosoever BELIEVE in Him will not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16). Jew gave us Jesus and WORD - scriptures and I am grateful.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      The whole idea that concentration camps never existed makes me sick to my stomach. How can they believe that? I really can't understand it.

    • LauraD093 profile image

      Laura Tykarski 4 years ago from Pittsburgh PA

      Wow I spend some time away from the hub community and see...I miss hubs generating this kind of commentary.Michele I as always applaud your fact-finding and courage to stay true to your topic . The word Holocaust coupled with denial is sure to catch any eye. The comments left here show the depth of commitment many have in giving voice to those silenced long ago. Historically speaking this was a lesson in which all of man-kind should have learned. Unfortunately hatred and genocides continue to exist which is why our generation and those following can never forget...that 1 mad man's goal was almost accomplished through his manipulation of an entire nation.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Sorry, I forgot to ask forgiveness of sin. Thanking God for Jesus. Doing you best to follow the path God want's you to follow, even if it is hard to find. I don't know if when you are praying and asking God to help you follow the path He want's you to follow, is the same as searching for the truth. Yes following Jesus and His teaching is also the way to salvation as well as asking for forgiveness of your sins.

      Thank you for reminding me.

    • Sagittarius 2012 profile image

      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Michele and Vlad, the only way to salvation is to follow  Jesus; His teaching, commandments, search for the Truth.

      Just believing in Jesus will get you nowhere, surly not to heaven. 

      Don't you think that Satan also believed in Jesus?

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Vlad, as you know, there is no other way of salvation.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 5 years ago from HubPages, FB

      Sagittarius: what, then is other true way of salvation?

      I believe Jesus is only way.

    • Sagittarius 2012 profile image

      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Vlad, why don't you check the Bible before you sell your false "salvation"? Confessing by mouth that Jesus is the Lord will not open the door of heaven. 

      Matthew 7 reads:

      "21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; 

      but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

      22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

       23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

      24Therefore 

      whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them,

       I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 

      26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

      28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Vlad forgive me, I was thinking of human law. Like not speeding on the highway. Now I understand what you are writing about

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 5 years ago from HubPages, FB

      Michele It is sweet of you. Lord bless you abundantly.

      OK there are two kind of law: Law of the spirit and Law of sin and death.

      Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

      Moses predicted I will give you new Covenant (Law) not as Law I gave you when you went from Egypt. New Law is Law of the spirit after man receive new heart. Religious people where they are and what they are try to keep an Old Law to please God. But nobody kept it only Jesus did. God was pleased by this and gave to Son kingdom. Now Jesus is running the kingdom and we call Him the Lord. The Lord in Hebrew is YHVH having the same consonants as YeHoshuVaH. In English we call it Jehovah [YeHoVaH). New creation is already saved. If we sin then we repent and get strait. New Creation walking in the spirit (Word) does not have any desire of sin. *** Man of the world does not repent since he is not in Covenant yet. They just must to receive by faith to heart resurrected Jesus and confess Him by mouth Jesus is Lord! (Rom 10:9-10.

      PS we live in the Law of Grace.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Vlad, this is true. I do not understand why religions are operating in Law. God is above human law. It is very strange to me. I did not notice your misspelling, I just understood what you were writing. Hmm, that is interesting, isn't it?

      Agape

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 5 years ago from HubPages, FB

      I made some misspelling mistakes. Sorry.

      The when He became Lamb of God He took our son on Himself.

      should be: Then when He became Lamb of God He took our sin on Himself.

      I must add, some religions still are operating in Law and this is troublesome.

      Agape.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Vlad you are my brother. God created us and He loves us. We agree, and you have taught me a lot. That has been very important and I love you for that.

      Agape.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 5 years ago from HubPages, FB

      Hi Michele. The law was given to Israel. It was temporary solution till the Messiah will come. It indicates that nobody can keep the Law. Nobody. For legal reason Jesus was only who was able to keep it. The when He became Lamb of God He took our son on Himself. He redeemed us. The same time He brought the Grace and the Truth to set us free.

      One cannot hate what God blessed and loves.

    • Sagittarius 2012 profile image

      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Michele, be not afraid.

      In John 18, Jesus replied,...

      "I have been born and have come into the world for this reason—to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” 

      In Ezekiel 2 you have read:

      "3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

      4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God.

      5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.

      6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

      7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.

      8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth,..."

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      No, no, no, don't bring another hub into this hub. humph....

    • Sagittarius 2012 profile image

      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Vlad, will you consider this prophecy as literature of God's enemies ? 

      "Ezekiel 2

      King James Version (KJV)

      1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.

      2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

      3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

      4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God.

      5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.

      6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

      7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.

      8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.

      9 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;

      10 And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe."

      Vlad , as I told you before, my God is God of love and friendship; He is God who said: "Thou Shall Not Kill" and "Love one another".

      Your God, God of Israel, is the one about whom Jesus said in John 8:

      "He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

      Vlad, all I do is telling the truth; but you do not believe me! Can you prove me guilty of sin of telling lies? If I am telling the truth, why you don’t you believe me? 

      Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

      BTW Vlad, your hub "Changing Biblical Names" contains lies and deceptions. 

      After Sarah, the next person God renamed was not Jacob, but Esau. 

      Esau was renamed to Edom = Red = Adam.

      Yes Vlad, Esau was renamed by God to Adam, and he was the second Adam; Jesus was the third Adam.

      Esau was beloved son of Isaac and there is no indication in the Bible, according to his says and deeds, that he was an angry man.

      It was Israel who become enemies of Edom, not vice versa, and there is plenty of proof in the Bible to support this view.

      It is just one more of your accusation Vlad, but you are know by now from accusing innocent people.

      The Biblical name of Jacob is not supplanter, but Cheater, Deceiver and Usurper. Vlad read the Bible before you write hubs about Bible stories.

      And thank you Vlad for directing me to the war on Palestinians, another Holocaust the world denies.

      Let's spent some time describing this Holocaust, and expose Deniers of this continuing crime against humanity.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      You always tell the truth Vlad

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 5 years ago from HubPages, FB

      Sagittarius. You still did not get it, using literature not of God, but of enemies. Also you are using Bible out of context what suites to you. This is not way how to study and understand Bible.

      The past was founded on the Law, which was inevitable, temporary and ordained by God. (You still are in it in the law) Law was good but people were not. If there would be not Law existing, all faith, scripture, info about God would vanish. You are falowing Law, your law, law of hate. It is not for our time of Grace and Truth (John 1:17). I told you hate has one step to war and death.

      Also please read recent Hub: CHANGING BIBLICAL NAMES.

      Then I wrote in book of Healing I-II about Paul thorn. I did quoted: God said: Deuteronomy 33:50-55: If you will not drive out people they will be thorn to your side and your eyes… Then read Joshuah 23:13; Ezek 28:24. God had the plan to give us Deliveror, but nations as Moabites, Amorites, Hittites and so on were enemies to Israel all the time. You are resurrecting the same hate. Devil hates God and any people of God.

      Listen people are shelling daily Katushas to Israel, why? Then there are complaines that Israel retaliating. How about suicide bombers?

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Sagittarius 2012. Yes there have been many horrible Holocausts, I agree with you on that. This hub was only about one of them. You know a lot and have much information. Would you write a hub about any of them?

      It would be interesting. I would love to read it, because you know a lot.

      God bless you

    • Sagittarius 2012 profile image

      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Larry and Jason, the true Holocaust is going on for the last three thousand years. Its master plan was laid down in the corrupted Biblical Obadiah prophecy which says:

       "9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that 

      every one of the mount of Esau (Edom) may be cut off by slaughter.

      10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever...

      18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, 

      ...and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it...."

      So, let's see some more examples of this Holocaust, this time from the era of Maccabees and Hasmoneans, and  find out if your mind will accept this Holocaust or deny it.

      So let's continue the story of Hanukkah:

      As rulers, the Hasmoneans were far from model Jews. John Hyrcanus, a son of one of the Maccabee brothers, ruled Judea from 134-104 BC. He forcibly conquered Samaria and Scythopolis. "John's wars of fire and sword were marked by massacres of city populations whose only crime was that they were Greek-speaking. 

      The country of Idumea / Edom was conquered and the inhabitants of its two main cities, Adora and Mariss, were forcibly converted to Judaism or slaughtered if they refused."

      Hyracanus was succeeded by his son, Alexander Jannaeus. When some pious Jews pelted him with lemons, Jannaeus's response, according to the historian Josephus, was terroristic: "He was in a rage, and slew of them about six thousand." After taking back Jerusalem he "did one of the most barbarous actions in the world…for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes."

      Larry,  this fragment is from your Catholic Bible and is refereeing to the events above:

      2 Maccabees 10

      15: And therewithall the Idumeans, having gotten into their hands the most commodious holds, kept the Jews occupied, and receiving those that were banished from Jerusalem, they went about to nourish war. 

      16: Then they that were with Maccabeus made supplication, and besought God that he would be their helper; and so they ran with violence upon the strong holds of the Idumeans, (Edomites)

      17: And assaulting them strongly, they won the holds, and kept off all that fought upon the wall, and slew all that fell into their hands, and killed no fewer than twenty thousand. 

      18: And because certain, who were no less than nine thousand, were fled together into two very strong castles, having all manner of things convenient to sustain the siege, 

      19: Maccabeus left Simon and Joseph, and Zaccheus also, and them that were with him, who were enough to besiege them, and departed himself unto those places which more needed his help. 

      20: Now they that were with Simon, being led with covetousness, were persuaded for money through certain of those that were in the castle, and took seventy thousand drachms, and let some of them escape. 

      21: But when it was told Maccabeus what was done, he called the governors of the people together, and accused those men, that they had sold their brethren for money, and set their enemies free to fight against them. 

      22: So he slew those that were found traitors, and immediately took the two castles. 

      23: And having good success with his weapons in all things he took in hand, he slew in the two holds more than twenty thousand. "

      So Larry, Jason and Michele, 

       Happy Hanukkah !!!

       

      BTW, how can some people be blind to notice one Holocaust, and are so preoccupied with another one?

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Larry your last statement was the best. " I think we have reached a level of detailed that had nothing to do with Hitler's decision and the failure of others to intervene."

      I would also like to thank Jason. When for his statement -yes we went a little off topic.That happens when we are compelled to respond to "accusations".Your historical account of Hannukah celebration is intresting,but isn't that too off topic.Remember,we this hub is about those who deny holocaust ever happened.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      It was off the original topic. That is why I said I share my part of the blame for the hub going off topic.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @saggitarius2012-yes we went a little off topic.That happens when we are compelled to respond to "accusations".Your historical account of Hannukah celebration is intresting,but isn't that too off topic.Remember,we this hub is about those who deny holocaust ever happened-like the islamic regime of Iran.

      God bless you.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      I agree this hub got off topic long ago and I share my part of the blame, but sometimes things cannot go unanswered. However, I am not sure you are on target. The Hub is not about if the Holocaust occurred. The Hub assumes that it did. The Hub is about the fact people deny it took place. I think we have reached a level of detailed that had nothing to do with Hitler's decision and the failure of others to intervene.

    • Sagittarius 2012 profile image

      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Gentlemen, Larry and Jason,

       I don't see your exchange of comments has anything to do with the topic of this hub. So let's go back on track to discuss another Holocaust. This one can awake your interest because is related to Hanukkah, Larry's wife was teaching about but Larry doesn't know anything about it, and a man named Jason who was taking part in the reason for Hanukah's season. 

      Let's bring back the History of Hanukkah, another Holocaust - Genocide the world doesn't care about - Denies.

      Story of Hanukkah 

      Background:

      Judea (small area around Jerusalem) was part of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt until 200 BCE when King Antiochus III the Great of Syria defeated King Ptolemy V Epiphanes of Egypt at the Battle of Panium. 

      Judea became at that moment part of the Seleucid Empire of Syria. 

      King Antiochus III the Great of Syria, wanting to conciliate his new Jewish subjects guaranteed their right to "live according to their ancestral customs" and to continue to practice their religion in the Temple of Jerusalem.

       However in 175 BCE, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the son of Antiochus III invaded Judea, ostensibly at the request of the sons of Tobias, the Hellenise Jew. 

      The Tobiads, who led the Hellenising Jewish faction in Jerusalem, were expelled to Syria around 170 BCE when the high priest Onias and his pro-Egyptian faction wrested control from them. 

      The exiled Tobiads (Hellenise Jew) lobbied Antiochus IV Epiphanes of Syria to recapture Jerusalem.

       As the ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus tells us "The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months."

      In traditional view (rejected by most historians),when the Second Temple in Jerusalem was looted and services stopped, Judaism was outlawed. In 167 BCE Antiochus ordered an altar to Zeus erected in the Temple. He banned circumcision and ordered pigs to be sacrificed at the altar of the temple.  Antiochus's actions provoked a large-scale revolt. Mattityahu, a Jewish priest, and his five sons Jochanan, Simeon, Eleazar, Jonathan, and Judah led a rebellion against Antiochus. Judah became known as Yehuda HaMakabi ("Judah the Hammer"). By 166 BCE Mattathias had died, and Judah took his place as leader. By 165 BCE the Jewish revolt against the Seleucid monarchy was successful. The Temple was liberated and rededicated. The festival of Hanukkah was instituted to celebrate this event. Judah ordered the Temple to be cleansed, a new altar to be built in place of the polluted one and new holy vessels to be made. According to the Talmud, olive oil was needed for the menorah in the Temple, which was required to burn throughout the night every night. The story goes that there was only enough oil to burn for one day, yet it burned for eight days, the time needed to prepare a fresh supply of oil for the menorah. An eight day festival was declared by the Jewish sages to commemorate this miracle.

      The version of the story in 1 Maccabees (part of Catholic Bible) states that an eight day celebration of songs and sacrifices was proclaimed upon re-dedication of the altar, and makes no mention of the miracle of the oil. 

      A number of historians believe that the reason for the eight day celebration was that the first Hanukkah was a belated celebration of Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret. During the war the Jews were not able to celebrate these festivals, when lamps were supposed to be lit in the Temple (Suk.v. 2–4).

      However,  modern scholars argue that the king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, was intervening in an internal civil war between the traditionalist Jews and the Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem.

      These competed violently over who would be the High Priest, 

      with traditionalists with Hebrew/Aramaic names like Onias 

      contesting with Hellenizing High Priests with Greek names like Jason and Menelaus. 

      In particular Jason's Hellenistic reforms would prove to be a decisive factor leading to eventual conflict within the ranks of Judaism. 

      What began in many respects as a civil war escalated when the Hellenistic kingdom of Syria sided with the Hellenizing Jews in their conflict with the traditionalists. As the conflict escalated, Antiochus took the side of the Hellenize Jews by prohibiting the religious practices the traditionalists had rallied around. This may explain why the king, in a total departure from Seleucid practice in all other places and times, banned a traditional religion.

      Next we will look in to the Genocide part of the celebration of Hanukkah.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry-nobody has all the answers except God,what we see today as an unclear/broken image we will see clearlg in the coming eternal life.I didn't judge you,what i did was to show you clearly that according to scriptures the practice of intercession/veneration of saints is idolatry.According to scriptures those who do idolatry along with liars,cowards,murders,sexually immoral will be thrown in to lake of fire and sulfur for all eternity.This is the only reason i wanted to show you that practice of intercession/veneration of saints amount to idolatry.I didn't judge you or condemn you,but God condemns idolatry in the most severe terms in the scriptures.So let God who knows and see all things be the judge.May God bless you and lead you to truth and reality.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      Your are so wrong. God will decide my fate and not your misguided views. I researched your church...you do not have all the answers.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry-it's evident from your comments that you are a catholic extremist.I have told you vary clearly what is idolatry and what is not,yet you fail to recieve God and his word.You are the one who needs to be open and more accepting to "common sense" and Godly wisdom.Yet you cannot even do that because you have become so indoctrinated in catholic lies.Extremists like you contradict your own words,and move from one point to another to make it fit your rigid religious views.

      I have clearly said wearin a cross is not idolatry.But attributing supernatural powers to the cross,instead of Jesus Christ-God is idolatry.You beat in the bush to force your extremist ideology on others.You rebel against God and his word by your practice of intercession/veneration of saints as do all who practice it.

      God bless you to see the reality and come out of catholic lies which have decieved you.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      If proved that I have trouble writing long messages on a Blackberry screen and realizing I had omitted something. There is a crucifix in virtually every room of my house. I do not stop and kneel for any of them. You are an extremist. I don't think any one things the cross, a statute, a picture or whatever protects them. It is what they represent, the love of Christ that projects them. Reminders never hurt anyone. I promise you, I did this on my computer screen and this is my last reply==you have my prayers that you will become more open and understanding of other people and their faith and the way the practice it. By the way, one of the Priests at my Church, which is named Our Lady of Mercy, is here from his native India working on his Masters degree. He previously served as associate pastor before going back to his homeland to spread the gospel to his fellow countrymen.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      Larry-why do you think God blessed Islam so much to enlarge them,although they outrightly deny his son Jesus Christ?One reason i believe is because they refrain from idolatry.In a muslim mosque,you will not find statue/images of saints,but you will find a muslim kneeling in prayer towards Mecca,Mecca is the site where before the advent of Islam Arabs had 360 Gods for each day of the year.Think,why should we as christians blaspheme God by the idolatrous practice of intercession/veneration of saints,if this is the case with muslims?...God bless you

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry Wall-you said late last night when you left you are done with discussion and the hub and is leaving(here in India it's late night now).So when you come back now contrary to what you said,what does it prove?.It proves you gave into "emotions" when you left last night.Isn't it.

      As for me,i am an asian evangelical,belonging to Marthoma church ofIndia.I donot profess by all the doctrines of this church,which i am still a member,by birth.I often attend evangelical charismatic meetings both inside and outside of the church.

      Regarding idolatry you make believe yourself.That a child kneeled in prayer...that somehow image of mary/saint was propped up in front of him,as if the innocent child has no knowledge of it(of course the child is obviously inoccent and donot know the gravity of the situation).

      Wearing a cross is not idolatry,but believing that that cross you wear is the one who protects you rather than the ressurected Jesus who is living for you today is idolatry.This is the essence of idolatry.God bless you to see the reality.

    • Sagittarius 2012 profile image

      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Vladimir Uhri, stop accusing me of hate without giving specific examples; you know the the second name of Satan is Accuser. And stop deceiving people telling them  that faith only can save them; you are sending your followers to hell, not towards salvation. 

      "What does it profit my brethren, thou a man say he hath faith and have no works? Can faith save him?" James 2:14

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      JasonNeo:

      Here is the first paragraph you sent late last night:

      @Larry-in many protestant churches,there is crucifix and other symbols placed as a part of reverence,this is certainly not idolatry..In some cases preist will bow down infront of the altar and the crucifix it holds,as a part of the liturgical worship.This practice is an extension of idolatry. So as i said some protestant churches also hold to these idolatrous practice.

      In my reference to the child saying his prayers while kneeling, I left out the fact that there may be a picture of Mary, the Blessed Mother above his bed. If he was facing that picture when he prayed, it would be idolatrous by your definition.

      I was using my Blackberry instead of my computer and I left that sentence out. I agree you never said kneeling by itself was idolatrous, however, I suspect if a Catholic is holding a rosary, while kneeling and praying, you would find that to be idolatrous.

      So we cannot have statues in the church, we cannot name church parishes after saints or the Blessed Mother. I assume the Sacred Heart of Jesus would be acceptable, but maybe not.

      I am interested in one thing you might tell me--it is not religious guidance--I will take my chances on how I get to heaven. What religion do you follow, or are you a free thinker that does not need an organized religion or a trained pastor to help lead you in your spiritual journey.

      If a Christian, not just a Catholic, wears a Cross around his neck, does that make him idolatrous? Do people keeping prayer cards in their Bibles with pictures of saints make them idolatrous. Does the practice of a Catholic being named after saints or a young catholic chosing a saint's name as part of the Confirmation rite, where the young people make an adult commitment to Christ fall into the catagory of being idolatrous.

      You use that word much too often. In your definition a Church Name Main Street Catholic instead of Our Our Lady of Mercy Catholic Church would be better.

      Is it wrong for Nuns to use Saints names or the name of the Blessed Mother?

      My real name is Lawrence, that is a Saint's name, also my Grandfather's name. Is that wrong?

      Before you write your answer tell me if you belong to an organized religion. I would like to look up some of the things you believe and practice.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 5 years ago from HubPages, FB

      Sagittarius, you are repeating scriptures out of context all the time and apply to defend your opinion.

    • Sagittarius 2012 profile image

      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Yes Michele, I know what is hate.

      According to Jesus (John8), whom you say you follow, to hate is to try to kill someone for telling the truth, accusing him, and creating all kind of lies about him:

      " 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

      40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God...

      41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

      44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 

       48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

      59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

      Michele, is this Hate, origin of Hate and all Lies. Will you accuse Him of hate?

    • Michele Travis profile image
      Author

      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Jason, we are trying to fix some problems. You can still sign in as a member and leave a comment. But so far that is all you can do. We need to help people to find the blogs, and leave videos on the blogs, and start a forum for people to talk to each other.

      The website is

      www.acceptingallhumanity.com

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      Dear sister,Michele-thank you very much for all the love and support you give me.May God bless you abundantly in this life and the life to come.I will write some hubs on God and his word as soon as i get time.Meanwhile how is your new website going.Please provide the link...I will keep you in my prayers,tc.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      JasonNeo You also know a lot about scriptures and God. I have never been to a bible school or college. But like you, I love God with all my heart and all my soul. As you know, you will be in my prayers.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      Hi,Michele-there are many things about the scriptures that you know about that i may not know.Although i have a great intreast in God and his word,i have never been to a formal bible school/college.I do intend to write some hubs,so that people will know more about God and his word and may inspire them yo live for Lord Jesus.You are really a blessing to many believers.You are most of the time slow to anger and kind.I saw it in your comments tp revengedown,even when he taunted you kept your cool.That is the leading of holy spirit and i praise Jesus for that.So God bless you dear sister and you shall be in my prayers.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      God bless you dear sister.I donot claim to know much.Probably you know many things about scriptures i don't know.But sure,i do wish to write some hubs to reveal the truths of God and his word that i know.When we speak the truth we may offend someone because it often disagree with what many teach as "religion".This is one area which i learned from commenting on your hubs is that we should not give into emotions or insulting others,even though they may hurt and accuse us.Because when we give into emotions and insult others we are falling into the"hate" trap by satan.So as Jesus taught us it's always better to forgive and love.

    • Michele Travis profile image
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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      JasonNeo would you write a hub for me? It would probably teach me a lot of things I need to know and help me understand more of what you know.

      Thank you so much. Oh, not just for me. But, for other hubbers, you can get words and and information out to others and let them know a lot more about God and his word.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry-I have very clearly said those kneel down in prayer is not idolatry.Yet you accuse me of saying so.What should i make of this?Are you giving into emotions?I clearly said kneeling down in front of an image/statue in prayer is idolatry.But if it's just kneeling down and prayer not in front of any statue or image it's certainly not idolatry.Your are accusing me of things that i ha ve not said.Please don't give into emotions,instead of clear reasoning and logic of sound doctrine which scriptures manifest.May God lead you to truth and reality and bless you.I will pray for you.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      I have very clearly said those kneel down in prayer is not idolatry.Yet you accuse me of saying so.What should i make of this?Are you giving into emotions?I clearly said kneeling down in front of an image/statue in prayer is idolatry.But if it's just kneeling down and prayer not in front of any statue or image it's certainly not idolatry.Your are accusing me of things that i ha ve not said.Please don't give into emotions,instead of clear reasoning and logic of sound doctrine which scriptures manifest.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      You are confusing respect andreverance with Idolatory to the point of absurdity. I do not want to continue this exchange. I tried to be polite and respectful. Under your standard a child who kneels at night to pray would be practicing idolotry. I guess you and people who never kneel are the only ones going to heaven. You said when I went to. Catholic from Baptist I was giving up a true Christian faith. Baptists do kneel. I am throught with this hub and you.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry-in many protestant churches,there is crucifix and other symbols placed as a part of reverence,this is certainly not idolatry..In some cases preist will bow down infront of the altar and the crucifix it holds,as a part of the liturgical worship.This practice is an extension of idolatry.So as i said some protestant churches also hold to these idolatrous practice.

      You said kneeling could be deemed as idolatry.No certainly not,unless you kneel infront of a statue and image to pray.Kneling is an act of reverance to God almighty,when it's just. kneeling in prayer.Also the practice of naming churches with saints name is an extension of idolatrous practice of intercession/veneration of saints.Apostolic church depicted in new testament named their churches with names of the place/street(church of antioch,church of chremchrea etc).So baptist practice of naming the place name for the church is indeed a bpblical apostolic practice which all christians should follow.

      As i already made it clear,the practice of intercession of saints isan idolatrous practice that entered the God's church in 4th century AD,when emperor Constantine and his goverment decided to create a state religion which both pagans and christians can accept,and it became roman catholicism.This is clearly depicted by sister Michele in her hub "pagans converted".They just changed the name of old pagan idols to christian/biblical names and continued to pray(intercede) and use them in worship(venerate) as they did when they were pagans.So when you pray in front of a statue or an image you are certainly doing idolatry.When you pray to a saint who is in heaven,that prayer goes by default to satan and his falllen angels,because in the bible God commands us to pray only to him.Thus the practice of intercession/veneration of saints amount to idolatry and medianism.

      So let God who sees and knows everything be the judge.May he lead you to the truth.God bless you.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 5 years ago from HubPages, FB

      Yes, greatest commandment of Lord Jesus is Love. Do you know what we missed? We do not live under the law (rules). We live under the Grace, John 1:17.

      Law is not freedom, Grace is. Law is demand-er, Grace is supplier. There is truth attache to Grace. When one is walking in the spirit has not desire to sin. I love you all.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      Well as I said, the Catholic Church has associated certain saints with certain causes. Thus, St. Jude is the Patrol Saint of Hopeless Causes.

      I cannot tell you what is in every Catholic's heart. You can pray anywhere. Some people think they have to be in a church, or holding a Bible. Catholics do not pray to the statutes. They look at the statues as a representative of the saint from who they are asking intercession.

      There is a passage in the Catholic Mass that goes, "and I ask you, my brother and sisters, and all the angles and saints to pray for me to the Lord, our God."

      Unfortunately, years ago, Catholics were not encouraged to read the Bible. When a Catholic says his rosary, something I do not do because I do not pray by rote, but those that do are saying a Hail Mary, where the Blessed Mother is asked to pray for us. That will be followed by an Our Father or as it is better known The Lord's Prayer, which begins, "Our Father Who Are in Heave ....

      The Catholic Church now has Bible Study programs and will bring in speakers from other denominations to join in the discussion.

      Some Catholics are misguided. Some Jews are misguided. Some Muslims are misguided--all religions have misguided followers because all religious followers are humans and many humans make mistakes.

      This link from the Catholic encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07636a.htm will give you a rather indepth understanding of the Church's official view. If you look up Catholic and Idolatry there is a U-tube video that seeks to prove Catholics practice idolatry. I put no faith in U-Tube videos. I have done video work and I know how easy it is to manipulate a sequence of events. Also, the entire film could be faked.

      Now we started the morning off well, but I do not want to continue this debate all day. Catholics do not worship idols and do not pray to saints. Catholics believe in the one true God. I cannot account for what happened more than 1,000 years ago. I cannot and will not defend what Hitler said, while claiming to be a Catholic. Being a Catholic is a life-long commitment. Just because you were raised in the Catholic church or converted does not make you a Catholic forever. You have to practice your faith and beliefs on a daily basis. It was only 300 to 500 years ago that white men were slaughtering Indians, enslaving black people, and some were dress in sheets doing unspeakable things.

      Finally, you and too many others make too much about Catholics praying in front of statutes. If the sacrifices and teachings of saints put people in a reverent mood, so they can pray more easily what is wrong with that. Why do some people have to hold a Bible when they pray. Why do some people have to kneel. How do you know what is in a person's heart when they stand in front of a statue or painting--you don't. Many Catholic Churches are named after saints and the apostles to honor them. I belonged to a Baptist church that was named for the street it was on--which is more reverent.

      I am ready to end this conversation. I have apologized for my errors and I have explained today's practices of the Catholic church to the best of my ability and I have attested that I cannot account for what happened in past centuries. I provided a link to explain the church's position on idols and I have also admitted that the Catholic Church has made many mistakes in the past. The Baptist church that I last belong to hired a youth director after I left. He was a pedophile, who killed a child on the Church grounds. Hiring him was a mistake. It was a human mistake. Because it happened does not speak ill of those members. My old boss was on the selection committee that hired him. He had two younger children. I am sure he was as shocked and upset as anyone.

      How many people have claimed to preach the gospel for their on personal financial gain--way too many.

      As i said, I am ready to end this discussion. I am a Catholic, proud of it and as a Catholic, I am a better Christian today than when I was as a Baptist.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry -the greatest commandment of new testament by our Lord is to -Love.

      1.Love your neighbour as yourself.

      2.Love God with all your heart,spirit/soul and power.All commandments are included in these 2 commandments,which show us that greatest thing is "love".

      I have seen catholic/orthodox/chaldean/monophasite believers pray infront of statues and images.The apostolic church had no such practice and apostles and early christians would have readily condemned such a practice.But as centuries gone by pagan practices entered God's church and corrupted it as Michele wrote in her hub-"what made pagans convert".Jesus commanded-when you pray,pray not like the pharisees who make prayer for everyone to see in street junctions,but close your door,get inside the room and pray to your father in heaven.Your father in heaven will answer your prayer.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      Well I never worshiped an Idol. Because a statue is in a church, does not mean it is an idol and I have never heard any referred to as idols--not saying others have not.

      I have been faithful to my wife and have no prior indiscretions.

      I a not sure about No. 3. I cannot say I never ate a chicken that had not been strangled. Most meat had blood in it at one time, but I do not eat liver. I do eat beef, seafood, etc. Like a good steak and a good hamburger.

      But I think I am OK since on the Passover, God ordered the eating of a lamb or kid goat that has been roasted. I do no eat raw meats of any kind.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry-these are the commandments given to all new testament christians in Acts15:20.

      1.Keep off from idolatry.

      2.Keep off from sexual immorality.

      3.Abstain from eating strangled animals,meat with blood and blood.

      God bless you.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      Also Larry,i would like to add this.When we pray intercessory prayers to saints who we believe are in heaven,these prayers may reach satan and his fallen angels instead of going to God as we wish.Thus we may be doing the sin of medianism -contacting evil spirits,with the practice of. intercession of saints. Why?

      Because as you know Jesus Christ is the one who died for our sins on the cross.When disciples asked Jesus how to pray he always encouraged them to ask God our father directly.He never commanded us to ask intercession of saints in heaven.We should have respect for saints in heaven,but understand the truth that they are in heaven inspite of their shortcomings because of they have been washed pure by the sinless blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross for all those who believe.They or we have no merit in ourselves,all we are is because of our Lord Jesus Christ.So should we follow saints or Jesus Christ who makes everyone who believes him a saint?

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry- when we speak about killing of people,this scriptures come into my mind,genesis9:4-6, where God spaeks about the fact that life is in the blood(which modern science has now accepted) and he who shed a mans blood,his blood will be shed.So it's important to recognize the fact that killing people is something God hates.Sure God has commanded Israel to kill many gentiles in the old testament.But it was after God waited and waited for these gentiles to turn from their sins of sexual immorality and idolatry and repent.But they didn't turn from their sins and God judged them symbolically using Israel to warn the whole world about the coming Judgement of God which is clearly depicted in the book of revelations.That is why i don't agree with idolatrous practices.God bless you.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      Jason, thank you. You are certainly forgiven. The Catholic Church is a huge target and it has its share of transgressions. It takes an open minded person to accept an apology with sincerity as you have done. I do appreciate it. So, the question now is, have we finished the discussion about the Holocaust deniers or have we gone over that issue enough to agree there was a Holocaust and that millions were killed. Some Jews, some Poles, some Catholics. Does it make any difference. Is it not just wrong to kill people for their ethnic origin or religious beliefs.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry- It's ok.Infact it's quite rare to find someone who apologize for their mistakes as you have done for you.You are a great person.My best friends are from catholic and orthodox faith and i do know many catholics who don't exactly follow the unbiblical doctrines of catholicism.God bless you in this life and the life to come.You are indeed an inspiration to do better.Forgive me for insulting you by giving into emotions and kindly pray for me also.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      Michele & Larry-you are both an inspiration in christ.May God bless you.It's rare to find christians like you who are real.I praise God,for giving me the oppurtunity to find you 2 good friends in these hub pages.Kindly pray for me also.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry-only somebody who is led by the holy spirit can apologize as you have done.And i praise Jesus for that.I am the one who should apologize to you now for insulting you by giving into emotions.Please forgive me for that.As i said you inspire me to do better in future.Also God bless you for helping out Michele,she is a good christian and is doing a wonderfull job in spreading the truth of christ.

    • JasonNeo profile image

      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      It's ok.Infact it's quite rare to find someone who apologize for their mistakes as you have done for you.You are a great person.My best friends are from catholic and orthodox faith and i do know many catholics who don't exactly follow the unbiblical doctrines of catholicism.God bless you in this life and the life to come.You are indeed an inspiration to do better.Forgive me for insulting you by giving into emotions and kindly pray for me also.

    • profile image

      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      JasonNeo:

      I was incorrect about purgatory, sort of. I never said it was not still a part of Catholic Doctrine. You are right, it is. However, I can only recall one time when the issue was discussed at Mass in the past 20 years and that was a visiting priest. He said that a person of another faith told him, if he was going to chance faiths, he would chose Catholicism, because purgatory gives you a second chance. So when I said it was not discussed more it was incorrect. I actually tried to get back to my comment to correct that.

      As far as intercessory prayer goes, I know people who pray to the recently department family and friends, asking them for help and guidance. It is a natural thing. Catholics asked Mary and the Saints to interceed with God on their behalf. It is not required. I go straight to my Heavenly Father with my prayers.

      People keep referring back to what took place in the first 200 years of the church. They never mention the first or second Vatican Councils where significant changes were made. I do not know all the history of the church. I doubt if many Catholics really do. I know I attend mass and in Ordinary Time, as we are now until the start of the Advent season before Christmas, we have an Old Testament Reading, a New Testament Reading and a Reading from one of the Gospels. We say the Lord's Prayer. We pray for intentions. We remember the recently deceased. We congratulate the recently married, we offer our blessings to new born Children, in Louisiana, we pray for protection from Hurricanes, by asking the Blessed Mother to intercede on our behalf, while also asking the Holy Father. We share the consecrated Eucharist and we ask forgiveness of our sins.

      My church is decorated with several statues of May, Christ on the Cross and a few others, Pictures depicting the Way of the Cross, or the path Jesus took on the day of he died on the Cross. Catholic have feast days, special days of remembrance, to honor the saints of the past for the work they did and sacrifices they made toward Christianity.

      There are candles in the back of church. People pay $1.00, light the candle as a remembrance and say a prayer for whatever their intention may be. We lit one when my son almost died in a car accident.

      I was baptised in the Baptist church. The Catholic church accepted that baptism when I converted.

      For the mistake I made about purgatory, I apologize, but I am correct in that it is not discussed too much. There is also a state called limbo, where infants who have died but not baptisted and therefore have not gone to heaven. In 2006 the Catholic Church officially ended that doctrine. Other things said about the church in this hub and other hubs have been ended, but not reported because people stop looking when they get to a point where they find something they do not like.

      I am not an expert on the complete history of the Catholic Church. I was not an expert on the complete history of the Baptist Church.

      I did make a mistake by implying that purgatory was not being taught as a Church doctrine. I apologize to you and everyone for my error. Purgatory is a purification process that has its roots before the formation of the formal Catholic Church. However, I will let the historians argue that point.

      But to put it in layman's terms. If indeed, after you die, and you have to stand before the pearly gates (and no that is not how I believe it happens) but if you accept the analogy, then where are you. You are not on earth. You are not in heaven. You are waiting to enter the gates of heaven. As I said, I do not believe that is the way you enter heaven, but that has often been used as a depiction.

      Again, if I offended you, I apologize. I was reponding to a comment that I was basically doomed to eternal damnation because I became a Catholic--something I do not believe.

      Finally, Catholics do not seek intercession from the dead, they seek intercession from their souls in heaven. Veneration is just a symbol of respect. We venerate the Cross on Good Friday. Some Catholics do go to the extreme and get too involved in medals and prayer cards. When my son was in a hospital bed, possibly dying, someone came in waving a medal over his head asking God to heal my son so that the person depicted on the medal could become a saint. I told her later she had her priorities wrong. Some Catholics put ads in the newspaper thanking St. Jude for prayers answers. This is not necessary and not church teaching--just old habits started decades ago that will not go away. At one time, it was the practice that everyone went to confession before Mass. That was never a requirement, it was just a practice in some areas.

      So again, for my error, I apologize. I recognized that mistakes have been made in the Catholic church in the past. I do not hold all Catholics accountable for those actions, no more do I blame all Muslims for 9-11. I do not regret or apologize for believing in the Catholic Church.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      JasonNeo Thank you so much. It should be done in about an hour. Thank you so much, that you hope and pray that it should be a blessing for many.

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      Hi,Michele...looking forward to your new project-website.May it be a blessing for many.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Jason God bless you and I will pray for you.

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Michele-ok,i am leaving it.And i didn't judge Larry as i am in no position to do so.But Insult has been there both ways and i forgive and leave.God bless you.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      ahorseback God bless you and you father. It must have been horrible and very sad that he saw these things and had what happened first hand. Once again, God bless both of you, and I will pray for both of you.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      JasonNeo Please stop insulting Larry, he is a wonderful Christian. It is true. He knows a lot about Christianity and what is in the bible.

      God bless you.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Sagittarius 2012 You already know what hate is.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Jason, I don't know if you know this, but most Catholics pray to God and only to God.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      JasonNeo Larry did not judge you or you condemn you please understand this.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      JasonNeo Thank you for letting me know what you meant and God bless you also.

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      ahorseback 5 years ago

      Wow Michele , I thought this was your hub ! To me its all so very simple , My father was a US army infantry soldier who was an eye witness to the many ,many ways of Jewish imprisonment , toture , death and destruction . From a young age we knew of alot of his experiences , I believe he , in part , wanted us know first hand the cruelties of the Nazi' death camps , and how cruel human nature can be . The simple fact that he related his experiences to us is enough to believe ! It happened! Awesome hub , What my Father gave for country , for Europe and for me ....is enough.

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      Through my comments i have explained certain important aspects of the christian faith.If you have an open mind then you might learn something.If you are a person who cannot learn then you have a problem.God bless you.I will pray for you.

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      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Michele,

      What is Hate?

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry- also purgatory is still an official doctrine of catholicism.Weather it's taught in churches or not is irrelavant because if you profess to be a catholic you believe in it's official doctrines.Isn't it?God bless you.

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry- also purgatory is still an official doctrine of catholicism.Weather it's taught in churches or not is irrelavant because if you profess to be a catholic you believe in it's official doctrines.Isn't it

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry- also purgatory i still an official doctrine of catholicism.Weather it's taught in churches or not is irrelavant because if you profess to be a catholic you believe in it's official doctrines.Isn't it?God bless you.

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry-i already had so much debate with catholics,even with extreme catholics.Also i have researched on the topic of intercession/veneration of saints and other idolatrous practices of catholicism and orthodoxy.For you to condemn me is i donot learn from catholic practices,is certainly not the leading of holy spirit.God bless you to see the reality.

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry i use intercession of fellow believers,but not the intercession of those who have died and have gone to heaven or hell.There are similar practices of praying to the dead among Jews and muslims.Unfortunately according to scriptures these prayers are forbidden and hence it might be redirected to evil spirits which will amount to medianism.Why should you need a statue or image to pray to God?They are all transmutations of pagan customs into christianity which occured in 4th century AD.

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Larry-the info regarding catholic involvement with Nazi and stalinist regime may or may not be true.But it sure has some reasonable points,i think.I never intended to offend you in anyway.God bless you and i will pray for you.

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      JasonNeo 5 years ago

      @Michele and Larry-No i don't judge anyone.God is the one who will judge.I only pointed out certain practices of catholic/orthodox chorches which are unbiblical.In saying so please don't think that i am saying all protestants are okay and correct.There are unbiblical practices among them too.So only thing i wanted to say to you is,please do not blindly follow what your denominations might teach you,check the bible if it's true.God bless you two.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Sagittarius 2012 You think only 144,000 are going to Paradise? Is that what you think? ( heavy sigh) Just read Revelation 14:4 They are the first who are going to Paradise because they have been pure. They are the first, but not the only ones. Now, I have a question for you. Do you hate people who are Jewish? Do you hate them, and if you do, why?

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      JasonNeo You need to stop. Remember we cannot judge others. Only God can judge. You need to understand this. It is very important to understand. Judging in and of itself is a sin. Please do not judge.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Jason, Larry is a good one. He is helping me with a website that is trying to stop people from hating others because they are Jewish. Or have a different skin color, or a disability. It will be up and working tomorrow. We are finishing it tonight. It is almost finished. Another hubber is doing a lot of work to finish it.

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      Michele Travis 5 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Larry Thank you, this is for your first comment. We both agree that as humans we are not to judge others. Only God can judge others. Bias and hate are not things that Jesus taught to us. It is very simple. As it is in the 10 commandments. Love your neighbors as yourself.

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      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      Very little--I did not teach the unit. My wife did. That was after a Jewish member of the community came to her school and said, and I promise this is an exact quote, "Hanukah is like a Jewish Christmas." I know Jews do not celebrate Christmas and I did know more about it at one time, but like I said, I did not teach the unit, my wife did--my wife the Catholic.

      As I think about it, I think it is an eight day festival also called the Festival of Light commemorating either the relocation or rededication of a particular temple, which I cannot name at this moment. I know that one candle on the Menorah is lighted each of the eight days at Sunset. There is more to it than that, but I did not claim to be an expert in the Jewish faith, just as you are obviously not an expert in the Catholic faith. I do know there is a significant difference between a reform Jew and and an orthodox Jew.

      Finally, I know I respect them for their beliefs and would never tell them they were wrong nor would I accuse them of killing Jesus. It is something my father taught me--respect for others. A lot of people miss that lesson while growing up.

      Just for the record, the newspaper I worked for years ago was in a building that we rented from a Jewish gentlemen who ran a printing business. He always attended Temple and never told any of the Catholics they were going to hell. I was still a Baptist then.

      When I was in Toastmasters, my mentor was a Jewish gentleman, who I took out to lunch one day and he ordered the pork chops.

      I was on good terms with a Rabi I knew once--different city.

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      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Larry, do you know what about is Jewish Hanukah celebration? 

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      Sagittarius 2012 5 years ago from Canada

      Michele, only 144000 to be saved? Out of Billions of descendants of Jacob / Israel? That's much less then a drop in a backet. What about the estimated six millions..

      Romans 9:27 reads:

      King James Bible 

      "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

      The Son of God was crucify because of the sins of people who crucified Him; not for you sins, ( as long as you don't support them ).

      For you, He was the way of life, an example to follow.

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      Larry Wall 5 years ago

      1. You are not in any position to say if I have offended God. I have a hunch God does not have lunch with you every day.

      2. The accusations about intercession--Baptists believe in intercessory prayer, veneration of saints--showing respect to special people who have done Godly works in their life time--Catholics do not pray to idols. They may stand in front of an statue of a saint, Jesus, Mary and say a prayer, much like a person stands in front of the grave marker of a deceased loved one or friend and prays--do not see a big problem--purgatory up for grab. It is not really taught anymore--could be that brief moment when you die and your soul goes to heaven. There is nothing satanic about the Catholic church.

      Finally, you mentioned Hitler. Because he claimed to be a Catholic, was baptized as a Catholic and when to Catholic schools does not make him a Catholic. In the Catholic church you enter heaven by accepting Jesus as your savior and doing good works. In the Baptist church, it is assumed that if you accept Jesus as your savior, you will do good works.

      There are many people who were raised Catholic and do not follow the faith, just like many Jews, Muslins, Baptists, Methodists, etc. may change faiths in the course of their lifetime.

      Finally, I appreciate you worrying about the possibility of my burning in the fires of hell. I am concerned about you. By the way, my religious belief have nothing to do with the "Deniers of the Holocaust"--the topic of this Hub. I believe the Holocaust occurred. In fact, I do not know what point you are trying to make. Look around the Hub and I have explained many aspects of the Catholic faith. If you have an open mind, you might learn something. If you are a person, who cannot learn, then you have a problem.