I get so mixed up in that debate, it would seem that the right to life outweighs any right of personal choice, but many see it much different. What is your opinion about abortion? What supersedes what? Do men have a right to a choice or are women the only ones involved?
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Great reply. I may not believe in all abortions, but i sure will defend the woman's right to make her own choice. All others should mind their own dam business.
I agree with you. Thanks for sharing such a great feeling.
Excellent answer. So many people want to make it a black or white issue without seeing the grey areas.
Fetuses do in fact feel pain, and feel great pain during the procedure. They also think and are sentient. Please do research and open-minded thinking before posting on topics such as this.
Please research unbaised, scientific sources, Ben. Without a nervous system, how can cells feel pain? Without a brain, they can't think. How exactly are you defining "sentient"? Women should have the right to choose, period.
Yes, women have the right to be responsible in the first place. How can you justify this murder in our society? And yes, this murder no matter how you want to sugarcoat it. Would you sit and watch an abortion being performed? That may change your min
Ben Blackwell whatever your belief on this subject may be as a male I find it hard to believe that you can mention open mindedness when men will never face the decision of abortion but are the quickest group of people to judge.
Yes. It’s complicated. My only problem is when either side decides to simply deny the rarity of it. I don’t agree with abortion when a choice a person willingly made resulted in pregnancy. Rape, incest and such things are a matter of its own.
Agreed with statistics available in the US, yet world wide?. Researching I learned forced miscarriage was practiced in ancient times. I read an argument likening male masturbation to abortion philosophically. Where does the argument begin and end?
This is precisely why it is a legal issue. The law never ways circumstance. It is black and white. The whole entire debate could push eventual legislation that begins to define morality either too loosely or too tight. Morality is not a legal matter.
bottom line: the law has no right mandating morality when that term is so vague.The courts R never rational when they R struggling with their own beliefs about morality.The majority has no right 2 mandate morality either.Crimes R not moral judgments
if one views it as taking a life unjustly (basically murder) should they keep their noses out of it? the thing with the argument of the child possibly growing up in an uncaring society is we dont know that. abortion is 100% no chance of life.
Thank God it is not Your decision to make. And i am sure women across the world feel the same way. There are no people perfect enough to judge others, and that includes you (and I)
im sure they and you do. god forbid women (and men) take any accountability for their actions. its much better to throw babies in the trash
ck: U do tend 2 over dramatize. all the"what ifs" do, is muddy the waters. the personal decisions any 1 makes is between them & their higher power. Not between them, you, & me. We have no vested interest in another's choices, except 2 pass ju
i dont disagree that i tend to over dramatize. i feel my point is valid though. i also believe my question is still valid. if abortion is murder, should people be stopped? if it isnt murder, how is it not?
The father should have no say, eh?
Yep Attikos, why should the father have a say when the baby doesn't even have a say?Of course Angela's argument kinda falls apart if the baby is a female doesn't it? "No one should have a say in what a women can or cannot do with their bodies"???
It's one thing to talk it over if the man and woman are in a committed relationship, and the woman is unsure. But consultation is ALL. Until men are the ones that endure pregnancy and childbirth -and social stigma, they don't get to make that choice.
The solution would be to be "RESPONSIBLE" the the first place. And don't give me the rape excuse as a very small percentage of children are conceived during rape. STOP THE MURDERS!!
Says... a man. I don't consider a couple of cells to be the equivalent of a human being, therefore, not murder. I do consider men trying to control women's bodies and forcing them to endure unwanted pregnancies to be sexism, however.
Contrary to your uneducated opinion (in this matter), science does declare that it is a human with consciousness and sentience. Also, "says... a man" sounds pretty sexist to me. If JThomp42 were a woman, would you give his opinion more weight?
There is no "science", except the one that you've made up. Fetuses can't think or feel pain. The cells are alive, but human? Opinion. And absolutely, his opinion would have more weight if he were a woman - abortion is a women's issue.
Sexism again? Abortion is a human issue. If you care to actually do some research, you will find that fetuses indeed to think and feel pain. They go through great pain during the abortion procedure. Do you claim that once, you were not human?
You need better sources than ProLife pamphlets. A couple of cells don't have a nervous system, therefore unable to feel pain. Yes, abortion is a sexism issue. Men never have to worry about unwanted pregnancy, dying from childbirth, etc. Women do.
If you question my sources, I wrote a hub on it a while ago. My sources are listed there, and they are all credible. You must never assume. They do have nervous systems as well, or at least primitive versions (that can still feel pain).
Fetuses certainly are alive and do feel pain. WHAT ARE YOU THINK AIASS? Look at how many premies live! You are a sexist and are VERY confused about life and death in general. Many are pro-choice to try and ease their conscience. Do you fall into that
JThomp - your gut reaction does not equal science. It's kind of hilarious, but mostly sad, how some men take an issue that's blatantly about controlling women's bodies and sexuality ( clear sexism) and call women "sexist" for pointing that out.
It is not about her body. It is about the body and life of the unborn child. Face it: you've been beaten on all fronts.
Aliass.. I find your whole argument about murder very sad. There is nothing "hilarious" about taking another's life. It is not in a woman's control but Gods! God does not make mistakes; in your instance they just grow up to be idiots!!
Ben - I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Beaten? Rehashing the same religious, slut-shaming and sexist nonsense that I've heard a thousand times. JThomp, personal attacks, awesome, definitely makes your argument more sympathetic. lol
ANYONE who would even consider putting a harmless, innocent child through this hell is far worse than an idiot. As Ben has said, you have been beaten, stop spewing your evil nonsense.by the way, those who allow these murders to be committed will pay
Religious? I use science. Sexist? You say men should have no say.
Haha we must be reading different conversations, because you've brought up no points besides "EVIL" and "fetus = human child", both of which I disagree with. Your rhetoric is sure attacking (and sexist, and ridiculous) but otherwise unsubstantiated.
You're right: we are reading different conversations. I have stated multiple times that my facts are supported by scientific research. Everything I say advocates equality between men and women.
Oh yes, I forgot, your "a couple of cells really can feel pain because they do have a nervous system, despite not actually having one." Prime scientific research. So, if studies prove that fetuses can't feel pain, are you okay with abortion then?
No, because they are still conscious and sentient. But what if's are non sequiturs, because we are dealing with what IS.
Thank YOU, Angela! Only the woman herself has the decision as to whether or not she wishes to undergo a pregnancy. No woman should have to endure an unwanted pregnancy nor have an unwanted child.
What about taking steps to avoid a pregnancy if they know they don't want to undergo a pregnancy? Using birth control, get their tubes tied, (which I never hear you advocate for) adoption is nothing compared to their "right" to murder their own baby.
are you saying then, if youre still inside the mother, your not a subject or a human? how does the location make a difference? why do you oppose it for your family? why is the child not given the opportunity to make choices? would they choose to die?
No, I am not saying they are not human, and the belief a fetus is answers your third question. It is not for me to say what others must do, nor can the law effectively do so. Those ideas are in the third paragraph of my post.
do you think people should be stopped from murdering others? if not, why not? if so, how is abortion not murder? murder = willfully taking a life without just cause.
I agree with Ur comments. I may not believe in unnecessary aborts, but i will always defend the woman's rights 2 decide her needs without Gov, or religious interferences.
Reply to christiananrkist: To emphasize one point, the law is not a moral code. It cannot be. The state assumed prosecution of murder as the common law formed because private handling of it was too disruptive. It is a matter of order and economics.
ok. understood. however I didn't ask about the law. I asked if YOU think people should be stopped from murdering? if not why not? if so, how is abortion not murder.
murder = willfully taking a life without just cause.
I think it benefits us all when the law handles grievances arising from killing. I also think murder in a moral rather than legal sense is wrong. Abortion may be moral murder; I consider it so. It should not be legally treated as murder, though.
i dont understand the difference between moral murder and regular. do you disagree then when a person who kills a mother and unborn child is charged with 2 counts of murder?
The ancient rule was that the unborn is protected by law at the time of quickening, roughly the start of the third trimester. I could compromise on that. Remember, though, that the law is not a moral code and thus cannot deal with moral murder.
im still confused on the moral murder detail. isnt all murder immoral? should our laws be influenced by our morals, or should our morals be influenced by our laws?
Neither. They are different realms. The law is a system of rules the function of which is to allow us to live and work together more or less in harmony. A code of morality is not its province. The concept of murder is in both, but it differs.
i feel like i keep missing the answers to my main question. how is murdering an infant outside the woman's body different than murdering one inside the woman's body? why is one moral, and the other immoral?
Whether or not abortion is a moral act is not the right question. In the public realm, i.e. in the law, it doesn't matter because the law's function is not to establish a moral code.
Laws against murder, stealing, and littering legislate the moral point of view that murder, stealing, and littering are wrong and should be prohibited and penalized by law. and im also certain now you're avoiding my question. you know which one
No. This is dealt with in my post. I'm repeating myself, but the law is not a code of morality, it is a body of code developed over a long period of time and experience to allow us all to live and work together. It is not capable of forcing morals.
In TOTAL agreement!
what if parents decide after the baby is a moth old, that they just can handle it and its too much money and too hard to raise a child. should they then be allowed to get rid of it?
They have the option of putting it up for adoption at that point. In many states a child left at a care center will be taken care of. certainly not ideal but better than keeping and ending up abusing the child or raising it in poverty.
is the option of adoption not available before that point? whats the difference in terminating it then or before?
Adoption is only a reality for a few.
Better not to add to the numbers of unwanted orphans. There will always be far more than the number of loving families. Like all problems it is better to prevent it first than to try and deal with it after.
prevention is best, i agree. shouldnt that be done through being responsible in the 1st place? why is it better to terminate giving the child 0 chance, than to give them an opportunity through adoption? difference between terminating then and before?
I don’t like this ownership thing Borsia. The fetus belongs to the mother, unwanted children ( there is no such a thing when it comes to infants). What is it with this possession idea? We are not suppose to devalue life based on other peoples wants.
when we make laws restricting anyone's rights, we R in essence taking ownership of their lives & controlling behaviors that we do not like or understand. We should 1st live our lives in the manner that we see best for us, & let others do the
I don’t want to invade anyone’s privacy. I just see no difference in abortion than forced sterilization on undesirables. If a mother can decide to end a life indie her, then government could rationalize how it is our mother and do what China does.
we can over stretch our imaginations in any direction,but deciding how a woman deals with her private life is certainly interfering in personal privacy. take a better look at the argument U propose & apply some logic, & U might see a differen
responsibility means dealing with consequences. Deciding not to have a child can be the most responsible answer. Only the mother can make the decision as to what is the best answer for her in her situation in her own life. She is not a slave
im for not having a child being responsible if you think your not ready. however, once a girl is pregnant, she has a child. only difference is location. whats the difference in killing it inside her or outside? a question that keeps getting avoided
Bravo Moseph - keep telling the truth, few here do but we are in the majority. As Ronald Reagan put it, 'I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born.'.
A beating heart has stopped and although it is not the mother's, she has become heartless in protecting her own. How pop culture has ingrained in many that a growing baby is worthless!
I agree 100%. I think people who call it "pro-chioce" are sugar coating what it should really be called, killing a baby.
not so.selfishness & $$ are not the major motivations.Only the individual knows their own heart. We have no right to judge others on a moral basis.
i agree. we cant judge a persons motives. we have no idea why people make the decisions they do. we can only judge the act.
spoken like a true conservative religious control advocate. (It's either MY way or the highway) Neither P.O.V. is totally correct, & differences must B respected, not derided. Quoting Ur scripture is a waste of time, and superfluous 2 logical deb
what do you mean by differences should be respected? are you respecting my view that abortion is murder and should be stopped? are you respecting tsadjatko's view by saying his scripture is a waste of time. you cant answer the ?'s as to why your view
Don't listen to d.william. Unlike him, you actually make arguments, and yours are constructed well, contrary to simply saying "not uh" with no rationale. Also, good job on spelling and grammar.
I don't understand how people so opposed to "murdering" an unborn kid can be ok w/ bringing a kid into a world where their quality of life may not even be an option. QUALITY OF LIFE. If it can't be provided, then you're sentencing a child to suffer
Well what I don't understand is how people like you can justify murder. By your reasoning you'd murder anyone who does not have a quality of life. There is no reason for any healthy unborn not to have a chance at a quality of life through adoption.
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I've never met anyone who is pro-abortion. But up to the point that it can live outside the woman's body it is part of her. Murder is all about intent. If the mother intends to bring the child to term then it is murder for another to kill it.
anyone who thinks abortion is ok is pro abortion. I agree murder is about intent. isn't the intent of abortion to end the child's life? can a new born support their own life even outside the body? if not then abortion should still be ok after birth
Murder is simply murder. You can drive drunk and not intend to kill anyone but since you chose to drive drunk, you murdered someone even when legal definitions lower the crime to manslaughter, you still murdered a person by making a bad choice.
Most people who defend individual rights don't condone abortion, but do believe that under certain circumstances its their personal choice 2 make not the law. All abortions R not murder per se & it is wrong 2 ban all abortions based on personal v
intentionally taking a life without justified cause is murder. can you describe a scenario where abortion is not murder?
Ur reaching again. If a fetus has 3 heads, 8 arms, a tail, & animal like torso you believe that it should be forced to be born? & if terminated, the mother and doctor should be fined or imprisoned for murder?
you example has never happened. most cases of abortion there is no indication of child being born with deformities. and even if they are, does this give us the right to kill those with deformities who have already been born?
I assure U my descript is not far from fact.i have cared 4 many grossly deformed adults. Taking a life after birth is a different matter as U well know. U argue 4 the sake of argue, but never offer a legit solution. There R no easy ans & no 1fit
i don't argue for the sake of argue. the solution is don't abort. just the same as don't murder. I don't see taking a life after as different. that's my point in this matter. besides location, what is the difference?
its a moral issue (abortion) & not 2 B mandated by law. The Government is NOT in the business of mandating morality & i pray 2 God it never will be. There can be no blanket laws on abortion. Murder is another issue & must be addressed sep
youre avoiding the question. whats the difference in killing a baby inside as opposed to killing it outside the women? I don't care about the gov. I agree that's the last place I would get my morality from
no 1can determined when life begins. It's a moral 'dilemma' that religion cannot dictate. After birth there is no question of sentient or viable life. Armchair debates can't decide either, so the ? you ask is 2 B debated only in a moot court.
if no one can determine when life begins (which i disagree with) should we be treating it so lightly? isnt this an argument for pro life? if you weren't sure if someone was alive or dead, is the best action the grave or to help them?
now you are just being silly. No matter how dramatic you get, or how you rephrase your comments the answers are still the same.
what exactly is silly about what I said? you believe since life cant be determined, its ok to kill , rather than err on the side of caution? im not trying to be dramatic. if you think that its probably because death is kinda dramatic.
The decision of whether it is a child or a cluster of cells is one that can only be made by the mother, as is the decision of whether she wants to have a child. She and only she should be making that call. Not government not a religion nobody but her
reality is what determines that. if 2 people do the deed, what they want is relevant. we are responsible for our actions. whats with the gov and religion comments? my argument is that its taking a life. in what way is abortion not murder?
They are taking responsibility for their actions. It simply isn't the way you would prefer they deal with their predicament. But it is their predicament and their solution that fits their life. This is why it is their decision to make and not ours
im saying abortion is murder of a child. you say they are taking responsibility of their actions by having an abortion. is killing someone a legitimate way of handling our predicaments? youre right. thats not how i handle tough situations.
ck: i don't think i can be any clearer than my previous comments.It seems that everyone has the wrong idea except you.As previously stated Ur arguments R only valid in a moot court.If not sure what the means look it up.
I don't see how they are only valid in a moot court. I do think im right obviously, but im not the only one with this idea. I don't know why, but you refuse to answer the questions. a simple one. how is killing a baby inside the mother different?
Its pointless to continue arguing about it. We have different definitions of when a fertilized egg becomes a viable life and about what self determination means. Abortion will always be available the question is will it be in alleys with coat hangers
let's pray U R never the victim of a violent rape, the victim of incest, or have a mutated fetus inside U. U might think differently about your views.
I think its horrible that you find killing people with deformities is ok. rape and incest are among 1% of abortions according to planned parenthood. special circumstances aren't in question. even so, should a 2 yr old from rape qualify to be killed?
ck: Ur still trying to superimpose 1concept on another. If U can't understand the subtle differences there is no further discussion 2 B had.Ur argument is-if orange&apples R both fruit, then orange&apple must be 1 & the same.this is not
maybe i cant understand due to you never answering the questions. you keep avoiding them. why is that? if youre for abortion you must have thought about some of these. how is killing inside differ from killing outside? what exactly is the subtle diff
Perhaps it is time for you to learn the difference between these two concepts. Conformity 2 irrationality is not a viable compromise
It is not up to me to decide whether someone lives or dies.
I totally agree with you Lybrah about your stance on abortion. Do not listen to these with reprobate minds!!
It's just, if you've ever been there when a baby is born, or just been in the presence of a newborn baby, you see that they come into this world ready to be loved, ready to love, ready to feed. To deny them that, to turn them away, is heartbreaking.
Babies are born ready to be loved, I agree. But what if it's into a family that isn't ready or capable of loving it? Not every family or person is able to give the child what it needs for a quality life. It's more than just "i like babies"
So.. just kill them because their parents are bad people?
I never said parents were bad people, they just might not be in a situation to where they can provide a good enough life for the child. Because adoption is an option, doesn't mean it is a good one. What about kids that don't find a home?
Then they shouldn't have sex!
Then tell that to rape victims
Yes, the less than 5% that become pregnant. Have you actually watched an abortion? I suggest you do so.
Abortion is not wrong if it is done in the earliest stages. No child should be unwanted and women should never have to endure an unwanted pregnancy. That is ALL I have to SAY on the subject.
I agree it is wrong. I think if you are raped and cannot handle having a baby with a defect there are many people who would love to adopt him. I think it should be up to God. He can heal all wounds.
Why is everybody ignoring the simple fact that abortion = murder?
It is not simple, nor is it a fact. A fact is a generally accepted statement about reality. So many people disagree with your assessment of abortion that it cannot be called one. It instead falls into the category of opinion.
It does not matter what people think. I suppose that "fact" is technically incorrect, but there is too much scientific evidence to ignore. Do you send a man to death in court if science provides evidence to the contrary?
What people think does matter. We live in a pluralistic society, not an authoritarian one (yes, I know, that's changing, but not favorably for your position, so far). The law is not a moral code. It must reflect public POV.
No, absolutely not. The law should reflect morality. We don't need to live in an authoritative society for that to happen, although in general, it does matter what they think. I didn't mean it like that.