I just cannot settle on a right or wrong here. It seems that morally both sides can be argued. Medical conditions are perfectly OK to exclude some people from some vocations. I wonder if there is a real rational basis for this exclusion. Maybe there is some logic to combat exclusion until it is really no longer an issue like how we slowly implemented being gay in military is OK. But I would really like to hear from others, especially to see if it can be addressed without emotions.
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Sex and gender are different things and that's a very simple truth. Besides not acknowledging that important fact, you're really oversimplifying when it comes to sexuality, it's actually not "basic" at all.
I respect this position. I wonder if the exact opposite is not true. A person so committed to being right with themselves would be more stable? Maybe changing the external is as valid as changing the internal into a killing machine? Deep.
Would you trust a surgeon who identifies as a mass murderer? Or a General Practitioner who identifies as Darth Vader? How about a Taxi driver who identifies as a suicide bomber?
Seeing as none of those are even remotely relevant comparisons I'm just gonna assume you're happy to remain clueless on the subject
First of all, I have little sympathy for anyone who aspires to be a mass murderer. However, transgender exists mentally with or without physical transformation. They were also designed this way, and they are not confused. It appears you are confused.
WBA, man, NOT hu/woman, can shape change into either gender, reproduce then change back. What we are seeing is carnal man attempting to change their flesh because of not understand their sprit nature. Spiritually we can but not physically.
I know you want this to be black or white but..over 6 million American children were surgically assigned gender without their knowladge or consent to keep the two gender myth alive. In fact 60,000 American kids are surgically assigned gender year.
Have you ever read Isaiah 45:7 where god does [present tenses] everything done? There's no right nor wrong done ever, god is fulfilling what each body is manifested to perform. Why is god's name I AM THAT I AM & ISIS? All's in god & god in al
400 years of chattel slavery was wrong. The genocide of 100 million of my people by European squatters was wrong. It appears God also has a lot of explaining to do as well.
Karma has to be paid, Israel [whites] were enslaved in Egypt by blacks its justice was paid in the USA. God's doing via man to teach the wise https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Understan... has no substance.
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Thank you Demas this should have been boldly stated at first. I was just thinking about sitting in a foxhole with a New Yorker. It is a world apart from being a Southwester Country boy. And I really would not care what she started out as in life.
Is it better to fund people's desires than "Treasonous" acts like what got us into WW 1 & 2, Vietnam and the "Middle East" wars? Our taxes are for "defending" wars not war caused by U.S. "treason" and also for "the general Welfare" of We The Peop
Interesting insight. EO executive order was signed I believe in 1948. And yet long before that Native Americans were fully integrated. 1993 DADT was implemented. Not until 2011 was the ban lifted for LGBs. A slow history indeed.
Ronnie, I wish I had Read the USC which prohibit our being aggressors & UCMJ with a section between 90 & 93 saying "one can be court-martialed for obeying unlawful orders" before entering Vietnam, our serving violated the constitution and UCM
Elijah, that is good info. I should have read the entire UCMJ but I didn't. That's what the gov. counts on; that we will choose to remain ignorant, which allows them to operate with impunity. Eric, I have de-integrated myself. Circle the wagons!
Very good Ronnie. Most of my childhood pards have basically done the same although as with you still communicate with us off the res types.
Ronnie, in the 60s when I went in they discouraged our reading them both, they didn't let us know where to find a UCMJ, but they would always tell us about things in it to keep us in line but nothing to keep them in line.
In '74 we were all given a copy of the UCMJ in bootcamp at Great Lakes. But a 17 year old kid is more concerned with getting paid and getting laid. This is the key to military success: Get 'em young, dumb, and full of that "get happy feeling".
In '64-69 no such UCMJ giving, has it been I'ld have finished 20 in the USAF. A T Sgt. ordered me to unground a plane he signed off but I was discharged. I told the 1st Sgt. once ordered my Crew Chief authority was overridden made it honorable.
I agree cost is a non-issue. Like Alcoholism we do not choose. A 30 Vet has a different perspective than a 21 year old. And the notion of women and gays -- took like 50 years to implement. T's are maybe there in another 10-15. Raised accepting is key
Well stated Aime.
That same thing happened concerning Afro-Americans when Eisenhower integrated the military, All of those taught prejudices are unfounded when people's live are on the line. Their maintenance cost doesn't usually kick in for some years, I've found.
Elijah you must be thinking of the Truman EO 9981 in July '48. And for practicality perhaps as late as Nixon, or maybe JFK with draft implementation. So it for sure took us a century to move equal rights of color. Why so fast with T's?
Eric, when we saw the unfoundedness of ethnic discrimination, now see gender is and know homosexuality has always been in the military why delay other unfounded prejudices with "T's"?
Correctomundo! You get the big Kahuna Burger! They all want equal rights and they all want the right to kill other people with high tech weaponry. But I can't imagine a mother being more upset that her son was killed by a Trans instead of a Redneck.
Ronnie and Elijah and Aime you are all making very good points. But I am getting the feeling that writers here live in a little bit of enlightenment. Like our older worldly Vet. I would hate to act ivory tower like on our average servicemen.
Eric, enlightenment means "being beyond using judgmental additives, seeking the 360 degrees of all subject matters, deciding based on the laws in force". Few posts here recognize the US' Supreme Law, they are mostly the individual's preferences.
Well that is something we totally disagree on. My first element of enlightenment would be not to define it. Next would be to not make it a box with requirements. And next would be not to judge others regarding it.
Everything has to first be defined to determining what it is. That is why the USA is biblically call "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT...", here man use words they can't defend which means they are babbling. Enlightenment is the judge, not who express it.
Good information a more precise explanation. Thank you.
My peeps tell me that the operation involved is 50K to 100K$ but I still do not buy the cost factor. It is the whole concept of "out of action" on choice other than procreation that makes me wonder. I just don't want a new T next to me in a foxhole.
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That is a really cool comment/answer. Reagan said "trust but verify". I think we should be open and yet take a hard look. Whether or not they are welcome in the military they are welcome in my home.
Ryan I was just considering a comparison to choosing to get pregnant while serving. Certainly for months and months after the sex realignment procedures/surgery and hormone treatments they cannot be active in service.
I and the Constitution fully agree, Ryan, so why would Trump do it unless attempting to hide something of more importance, as the government always does?
Well said AB. My only thing is that I don't want funding for the military to have to pay for any hormone drugs they might seem to think they need and they shouldn't expect the VA to pay for any surgery they may want after they serve in order to chang
I suppose my problem is with the problem of bigotry. We can all accept your position. But are our service members ready to? As clearly female and Gays are now accepted. I think maybe we need to get people as a whole ready.
Absolutely Greg, the same rules must apply, only medically necessary drugs and surgeries should be covered.
Eric, I'm guessing Service members have accepted it. I'm just now hearing that Transgendered have been serving, did not know that.
Yes, I was blown away discovering a guestimate puts it at over 15,000 out of one million plus. It just occurred to me that one might join up just to get the health coverage - like the GI bill.
Yes, this answer pretty much covers it. If they're qualified to serve, rock on.
I also think that we should pay for whatever medical care any service member needs. I have no problem with covering hormones for anyone who needs them.
I think it is not a safe assumption that most service people accept transgender people fully. Maybe but where I live and it is far enough out of San Diego City so rent is affordable, they seem awful danged redneck. I do not know though.
Lisa - If this is about all things being equal...Transgender should not expect the VA to take care of hormone drugs or any special surgery (as with every other person Serving, only medically necessary, elective meds/surgery shouldn't ever be covered)
@abwilliams , DOD spends more on viagra boner pills than hormones, and is it considered 'elective'? It is considered medically necessary, not “cosmetic” or “elective” or “for the mere convenience of the patient.”
Lisa, if a soldier is injured in the line of duty, and there are plenty of them, then they deserve any medical care and/or drugs needed to get better. But if they joined just to get the GI bill to pay for any transformation surgery and or drugs.
Transition surgery for active military isn't covered. In fact, you have to get special permission to have it at all, even if you're paying out of pocket. Most insurance doesn't cover it. And hormones are taken by cis folks as well as trans.
Greg, It doesn't matter what someone signs up for. The business of the military is to kill, and many military personnel get killed in the process. I signed a contract and that put my life in jeopardy for 6 years. How much is a human life worth?
I was in the Viet Nam war for 4 years, but I don't feel anyone owes me anything. From what I have seen in some of your past Q&As, you feel the world owes you WB.
Well then Ptosis, I have learned something from you. I wouldn't think that youngsters currently Serving would need Viagra, it is always old guys in the commercials. But....okay! No offense oldtimers!
Non taken AB lol
When people steal from me they owe me. And when I fulfill a contract I expect the other party to honor that agreement. Furthermore, drafting kids and forcing them to be killed or become murderers is a crime against humanity. But you R OK with that.
I joined, nobody forced me.
Lol Greg! P.S. Thank you for your Service. I appreciate all that have served or are currently serving. It must seem like the most thankless job.(that and being a Police Officer) I have great admiration for all that place themselves in harm's way.
Hi AB, From what I have gotten from Ronnie's past A&Qs he feels he is one of the abused or mistreated that the world owes them something.
That is a fiction that you like to promote Greg. That's because when you stick to the truth you can't find fault with my position. If the government can pay for bombs to drop on civilians they can afford any kind of health care.
Very interesting comments. The derisiveness indicates to me that our military needs to let society figure it out and then move forward. The military is not a place to figure out society's thoughts. If two folks in a foxhole don't trust then what?
Oh my gosh Wrench, your thinking is so warped. Most that serve in the Military do so for love of Country/Family. Why is that a foreign concept for you? Our Military does not exist to drop bombs, but thank God we have them, when we need them.
A rational mind will always seemed "warped" to the irrational. I am a Vietnam Era veteran who served 6 years. People serve because they need a job and education. I never met one sailor in 6 years who spoke of patriotism. U live in a fantasy world.
Wrench if the U.S. was anything close to how you always describe her, we would have Conquered the World long ago! Instead...we stopped the Nazis from doing it!!
The U.S. is and has always been a force for good.
Sorry Eric, we are off subject.
WB and AB, I think that you are right on target. Reasons for signing up is very much an issue here. And certainly drafted would change things as I assume WB was. WB I cannot imagine any sailor telling you about their patriotism. Just to fight?
It is all connected isn't it?
The person Serving has to be there for all of the right reasons and it is imperative that the same applies to the person next to them, otherwise, it doesn't work.
God Bless and Keep those who Serve!
I enlisted near the end of the war. My parents wanted me to get in and out before another war started. It was a matter of pragmatism, not patriotism. My father was redlined and abused by racists after serving in WWII. He knew the gov. was evil.
Well Ronnie that is interesting. Hate but serve to avoid service later? Fight in an unjust war to avoid serving in a war that might be just? I am fully sure you are not a combat vet but rather something like a squid techie on board a ship. Thank you.
Over the years, man's taught prejudices against man the military have proven to be unfounded, except individuals unwillingness to relinquish them, since prejudices are taught allow the military to prove the equality in man of all differences.
Elijah. My son goes to elementary school and usually some Bible School and we read and talk about moral and social issues. I do not want my military spending money on this. Better spent getting better body armor. Let others teach until it is good.
I would rather the Government govern constitutionally rather than based on the minds of the corporations who chose them for We The People to elect to their governmental positions, if that was happening this would not be an issue.
AB, on this I must ask directly. Do you think it a good idea if it makes 3 out of 10 servicemen less likely to count on them? Certainly if one is likely to change their mind about their sex, there is not much they would not change it about. Maybe??
I'm sure that many are uncomfortable. I know there was strife in the past between blacks/whites,but they overcame. As stated earlier, must be Serving for all the right reasons, as simply a Soldier, not to stand out, not wanting special treatment.
The TV series "Gomer Pyle USMC" was actually about gays in the military, what it pretreated was not the military's rejection of them but its accepting and making them into Marines.
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