I am taken back to the site 'unskewed polls' where the conservatives were saying that the mainstream polling system was unfairly skewed in favor of Mr. Obama. So, I bet I could not find them now anywhere among all the bits and bites of the internet.
Maybe you guys can add to this most interesting, here are a few of mine.
1. Romney got off to a late start in the campaign after having being selected as the best choice among the clowns during the primary season, as a result he got started late in his challenge against Obama, who had a ground game team that never really dissapated after 2008. Romney at a distinct disadvantage
2. Besides warmed up Bush II policies, Romney really did not have a viable alternative as to how he would improve on the incumbent in regards to job creation.
3. Dismissing women's reproductive matters as side issues.Allowing his elitist side to show (47%) Antagonizing the interests of Hispanics and POing I and other blacks with dirty voter supression schemes that backfired on the GOP
There are more, but I am out of space, what are your thoughts?
Someone compared the Republican party to the TV show called, Madmen, and the Democratic party to the TV show called, Modern Family. They said that apparently this country, now days is more like the mix of Modern Family - and that is why a Democrat won. I thought that was an interesting analogy.
Hi ya KT, nice to see you.
I am not familiar with the TV shows you have as an example.
I am not predicting the GOP demise, but after this latest defeat a little soul searching might be in order to carefully assess why they lost and how to stem a demographic trend that is clearly going against them. Be more inclusive, reevaluate policies and positions, that sort of thing...
Oh. but if they were more inclusive and re-evaluated their positions, they wouldn't be Republicans. They would be moderates, which is what Romney tried to project in the eleventh hour. This tactic probably turned off a lot of his more conservative supporters, while it failed to turn on the moderates and liberals.
He lost because he is who he is. The same reason McCain lost..
"Oh, but if they were more inclusive and re-evaluated their positions, they wouldn't be Republicans"
Yeah, Rhonda, that is the rub isn't it.?
But I do remember a more moderate GOP a generation or two ago and where the differences between the two parties were no where near as stark as today. I can accept much of their ideas of fiscal conservatism but I not giving away the store to the Richie Rich types at the expense of the middle class.
There was a time early in the last century when the REpublicans could have been considered the progressive party, but again that was when God was a boy....
The best man for the job is president. Romney didn't lose. He just didn't get the job.
DBQ, Romney spent so much time telling us that he would explain the details after he won the election, well, that is not good enough. He started with 59 points for repairing the economy and later reduced that to 5. I think that he did not have a clue outside of having the ability to enrich himself. I expect a broader base of interest from my Commander and Chief.
I hear you loud and clear Credance2. Romney told the voters, "Open your mouth and close your eyes and you will get a big surprise." It didn't work.
A couple years ago oranges were going for a dollar per and my grocer blamed Obama. I thought well, at least I have a dollar.. Mr. Romney would have taken even that, and if I don't have a dollar, the grocer doesn't either.
Either Romney was too conservative.. or he was too moderate.
The world will never, ever know which.
MM, he was both, depending on your point of view, but as a result he was not convincing to either. Another underlying reason why he was ultimately defeated.
Too much, too little, too late. But would he have won if he had stayed true to his party line? The whole reason he switched from ultra conservative to moderate was because it wasn't working.
No, Rhonda, I think the party line, at least according to their platform was turning off far too many moderates and independents. That is why they wanted to change the conversation away from the social issues. But none of it worked and it looks like the chickens had come home to roost..
I think that Mitt is a moderate at heart, but he could never win the nomination of the 'red meat' crowd in that place. But as a moderate he was uncovnincing since he tried to throw bones to the right wing of the party when he thought that none of us were looking. Thus, the etch-a sketch. Mitt is an unauthentic hybrid playing on Obama's record. But he had nothing to sell himself as a viable alternative, so he was doomed to failure for those that were clairvoyant enough to read the tea leaves many weeks ago.
"Inauthentic hybrid." You have such a way with words.
It was so comical because before and during the debates, Romney would say stuff and then Obama would say the opposite. Then Romney would come back a week later and say what Obama said, acting like it was his idea all along. It was as if Romney were using Obama as a kind of consultant. I thought gee even, if Romney wins, he's going to need Obama to tell him what to say.
Thank you for your gracious compliment.
Rhonda, I was thinking in the beginning that in his mind the very fact that "he was Mitt Romney", successful capitalist,, would transfer to the public as a 'job creator', not quite. People like Trump and Romney have an unrealistic assessment of the world around them, can you be that out of touch just because you are wealthy? I have seen other examples that indicate that this need not be the case.. This obtuseness in regard to the average Joe is detected by the masses, it contributed to a certain amount of distrust and Romney's eventual defeat. When it comes to foreign policy Romney played 'gotcha- tag you're it' politics, hardly presidential. When one looked carefully at the President Obama's policy we see an example of prudence and restraint, how could Romney advocate for anything else? All he was always good for 'me too'. If he could tick off the Brits, our closest allies, I would not dare give him China or Syria.
He might have been born yesterday, but I certainly wasn't. His born again love and support for the auto industry in the upper midwest, when he figured that votes were in the balance, is Mitt at his best.
"Mitt is always best at pretending to help people"
No, the wealthy needn't be obtuse. They are useful when they sponsor starving artists or support the development of new technologies to bring the price down. But these new billionaires who care about nothing but their own profits and have no allegiance to America, they are worse than unimportant.
What's your opinion of the oped article Mighty Mom posted?
Thanks Rhonda and Mighty Mom for a stimulating discussion. Yes, if history is a guide, no president presiding over a level of employment in the vicinity of 8% in modern times was reelected with the noted exception of FDR, 1936/1940. But again this was an uncommon downturn with underlying deep seated structural problems having dire implications for the capitalist system and not just another economic 'panic'. The fuse had been lit toward the September 2008 explosion since the early eighties. These are uncommon times any precedent that we try to use is thrown out the window. But, Mr. Obama was in a precarious position as the 'man on the street' without a job wasn't paying attention to the 'eggheads'.
I will say that regardless of what I said above, had the GOP waged a better campaign they could have well won this contest. They made the mistake of thinking that by merely offering an alternative, rather than specific plans as to how they would improve upon the Obama approach and record, they could win.
Yes, the failure of the GOP to be more inclusive had cost them votes. They lament that they had failed to stay on message 'the economy' as the source of their failure. They may well have overridden all of the disadvantages they had in the demographic arena and won on the economy if they, indeed, had a viable alternative. As Bill Clinton said, it is about arithmetic. Incumbency is a very powerful advantage, before people are willing to change horses in mid stream, you better have a plan that consists of more than platitudes and generalities.
We need Republicans or a fascimile thereof to keep the tendency to collectivise under control, the concepts of individual perogative and the collective good has to be in constant balance for the system to work as intended. I support center left vs center right, avoiding extremes at either pole.
Romney could not be defined, I think that he would have been able to wear a center right mantle pretty well but the rabid right would have none of it. Both Santorum and Gingrich were unelectable and it is the delusion of the right to even present them as serious candidates. Herman Cain belongs in a minstrel show, a throw back to the very worse anti-black characatures.
Huntsman was a successful possibility, a competent alternative to Obama without all the baggage the other candidates were burdened with. Amorphism was to be the great Romney advantage, but being everything to everyone fell flat. Huntsman's moderation would have made for a better candidate but again, the rabid right would not abide.
I read the Emerging Democratic Majority and watched the GOP scoff at it when Bush won reelection in 2004, but it turns out that the book is quite prophetic. There is nothing wrong with the GOP ideas of self reliance and individual responsibility, it is just that these and many other of the tenets of their beliefs are always selectively applied.
How did the GOP advocates and pundits miss the mark by so far, the party is living in a state of delusion for so many to not see what was in plain site? It needs to shake off the cranks at the extreme right, moving them far away from front and center for the party. They need to stow all the Horatio Alger stuff and tell all of us without family crests associated with our names what they are going to do promote real opportunity in our society besides telling us all to ask papa for money to go to school, or perhaps, self-deport.
But they better start to get relevant quickly or that elephant moniker of theirs could easily become a wooly mammoth.....
I've learned something new today. I never thought about how the two parties balance each other out. So what am I? When it's cold, I reach for my sweat shirt before I reach for the AC.
You are right, the Reps are very selective about self-reliance and individual responsibility. We have a kind of hybrid capitalism in this country. When it comes to large corporations, w e are capitalist about the profits but socialist about the debts. The taxpayers are responsible for the debts of the corporations but the corporations aren't responsible for the well being of the taxpayers.
Helen Keller was fortunate in that she had a family that could afford a private tutor for her. But there were probably tens of thousands of deaf/blind children who never got a chance to develop their intelligence because help was not available. As I've said elsewhere, why do they make it seem like we can't afford to help our own poor, but they never raise an eyebrow about all the aide we send to other countries?
How can either party strike the balance we need if they are both defined by party ideologies?
When I spoke on the tendency of the righteous right's basing its ideology on the idea that some are more equal than others. The case of the shared debts and capitalist profits is a case in point. It is a form of abuse from that faction of the GOP. The freedom to raid the treasury and the patiently accumulated wealth of those with modest means at its leisure, keeping winnings to itself as part of 'free enterprise', yet saddling us all with shared loses, when their investments go south, is abusive. The financial markets and those kicking and screaming when the President introduced reforms to prevent subsequent meltdowns have powerful lobbies to prevent us all in the middle from holding them accountable. This is an extremist position that needs to be reined in.
This financial power that is in large part perpetuated by the ideological right are in principle, amoral. They are there only to insure its continued existence and will use any means, fair or foul to that end. Look at the difference as to how Romney dissed his staffers the very minute it was determined the election was lost. Credit cards were cancelled and all his hard working staffers did not have money to even hire a cab to get home. For these guys, self reliance and individual responsibility does not apply at the celestial levels of the income scale. I wrote an article "beware of the three headed serpent' that speaks to this. They say that there is no devil, but there is, in fact. The military industrial complex warned about by Dwight Eisenhower knows no bounds and has no more affinity toward nor appreciation of the human equation than a drone in attack mode.
We are not dealing with just and rational people. There is no one man or adminstration that is powerful enough to make those having stakes in this entrenched attitude go away, but I trust the President's instincts as at least not promoting and encouraging it.
I blame the "right" represented by the GOP. Clinton and even Obama are hardly radical leftist bomb throwers. Obama has risked his political capital with his strong left flank base in trying to negotiate with the GOP on how the debt is to be resolved. Clinton worked with the GOP in regards to welfare reform among other things. The Dems are already "center left". Itis the conservatives that are speaking of vaginal probes, no regulations on the financial markets, no tax positions taken solely on an ideological basis. Since when do men and women who are sworn the represent the interests of the American people, march to the beat of some diminutive fellow named Grover Norquist? Attacking the President in matters of his point of origin, his university transcripts and the like, used to be off-limits, but not anymore. The fact that the GOP thought that it could win elections without being inclusive speaks to the fact that they have moved far beyond 'center right'.It is up to the GOP and the right to move more toward a reasonable center
Being moderate would imply that one would be inclusive, taking into account the opinion of diverse groups.
Perhaps the most insane excuse I've seen yet.
WSJ claims Romney lost because of ....
wait for it.....
you will not believe this one....
LACK OF MONEY!
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/how-race- … omney.html
Because he has all the personality of cardboard. Who wants to elect a mannequin -- albeit one with nicely coiffed presidential hair?
Given the competition in the GOP primary, Romney was the most marketable. Mostly because of his presidential hair.
Bachmann -- barely held onto her House seat.
Rick Perry -- too close in too many ways to W
Gingrich -- pick your reason
Santorum -- even crazier than Bachmann if that's possible
Cain -- token black (see how diverse we are!) with no relevant experiene
Huntsman -- the "other" Mormon (who I and a few others on here believe should have been the GOP candidate)
But the muscle of the party forced Romney to run as something he's not. He was clearly uncomfortable with it and it showed. I mean, really. Having to denounce your state's signature health plan?
But having declared himself as "severely conservative" his shift back to "moderate Mitt" didn't work for him.
But some of the blame has to fall on Romney himself. You are only given so many passes for "inelegantly stated" insults that show you're completely tone deaf to your surroundings.
I think this OPED from NYT says it quite well. It's not very long so I copied the entire article.
Do you agree the Republicans should have won?
Can Republicans Adapt?
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: November 7, 2012
This was one that the Republicans really should have won.
Given the weak economy, American voters were open to firing President Obama. In Europe, in similar circumstances, one government after another lost re-election. And, at the beginning of this year, it looked as if the Republicans might win control of the United States Senate as well.
Yet it wasn’t the Democrats who won so much as the Republicans who lost — at a most basic level, because of demography. A coalition of aging white men is a recipe for failure in a nation that increasingly looks like a rainbow.
Schadenfreude may excuse Democrats’ smiles for a few days, but these trends portend a potential disaster not just for the Republican Party but for the health of our political system. America needs a plausible center-right opposition party to hold Obama’s feet to the fire, not just a collection of Tea Party cranks.
So liberals as well as conservatives should be rooting for the Republican Party to feel sufficiently shaken that it shifts to the center. One hopeful sign is that political parties usually care more about winning than about purism. Thus the Democratic Party embraced the pragmatic center-left Bill Clinton in 1992 after three consecutive losses in presidential elections.
That was painful for many liberals, who cringed when Clinton interrupted campaigning in the 1992 primary to burnish his law-and-order credentials by overseeing the execution of a mentally impaired murderer. But it was, on balance, less painful than losing again.
You would expect the Republican Party to make a similar lurch to the center. But many Republican leaders still inhabit a bubble. It was stunning how many, from Karl Rove to Newt Gingrich, seemed to expect a Mitt Romney victory. And some of the right-wing postmortems are suggesting that Romney lost because he was too liberal — which constitutes a definition of delusional.
Imagine what would have happened if the Republican nominee had been Gingrich or Rick Santorum. We surely would have seen a Democratic landslide.
On the other hand, if the Republicans had nominated Jon Huntsman Jr., they might have been the ones celebrating right now. But he had no chance in Republican primaries because primary voters are their party’s worst enemy.
Part of the problem, I think, is the profusion of right-wing radio and television programs. Democrats complain furiously that Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck or Sean Hannity smear the left, but I wonder if the bigger loser isn’t the Republican Party itself. Those shows whip up a frenzy in their audience, torpedoing Republican moderates and instilling paranoia on issues like immigration.
All this sound and fury enmeshes the Republican Party in an ideological cocoon and impedes it from reaching out to swing-state centrists, or even understanding them. The vortex spins ever faster and risks becoming an ideological black hole.
In 2002, a book was published called “The Emerging Democratic Majority.” It argued that Democrats would gain because of their strength in expanding demographics such as Hispanics, Asian-Americans and working women. It seemed persuasive until Republicans clobbered Democrats in the next couple of elections.
But perhaps that book was ahead of its time. This was the first election in which Hispanic voters made up a double-digit share of the electorate, according to CNN exit polls — 10 percent, doubled from 1996 — and more than 7 out of 10 Hispanic voters supported Obama.
That wasn’t inevitable. In 2004, exit polls suggested that President George W. Bush received 44 percent of the Hispanic vote. But Republicans became obstructionist on immigration and then veered into offensive demagogy in opposing the nomination of Sonia Sotomayor to the Supreme Court. The Hispanic vote tumbled by increasing numbers into the Democrats’ laps.
Then there are women. The paternalistic comments about rape by a few male Republican candidates resonated so broadly because they reflected the perception of the G.O.P. as a conclave of out-of-touch men. As Representative Todd Akin of Missouri might put it, when a candidate emerges with offensive views about rape, “the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.” Namely, they vote Democratic.
America is changing. After this election, a record 20 senators will be women, almost all of them Democrats. Opposition to same-sex marriage used to be a way for Republicans to trumpet their morality; now it’s seen as highlighting their bigotry.
An astonishing 45 percent of Obama voters were members of minority groups, according to The Times’s Nate Silver. Many others were women or young people. That’s the future of America, and if the Republican Party remains a purist cohort built around grumpy old white men, it is committing suicide. That’s bad not just for conservatives, but for our entire country.
Thanks, Mighty Mom. This was very interesting reading.
No, I don't think the Reps should have won. People know that the so-called failure of Obama's economic recovery efforts is due to Reps doing everything in their power to impede him. They held the country hostage, just so the Dems couldn't take credit for doing something good. Did they expect us to forget that?
So is the answer for conservatives to stop trying to conserve? What, precisely, have they been trying to conserve? There will always be conservatives. When the old order goes out and the new order comes in, the independents become the establishment and they are going to want to conserve that new establishment. And there will always be liberals, fighting against conservative stagnation.
At the most very, very basic level, it comes down to values.
What do you value? Who do you value?
Be honest about it.
But don't try to be something you're not.
If enough people share your values your party will win.
Right now the GOP is beginning to wrestle (or beginning to think about wrestling with) their
Meanwhile, they continue to define the whole lot of us as "Takers not Makers."
Romney's 47% speech was not an aberration. That is how they really feel about us!
Who wants to be part of a party where you're considered a "problem" and a "mooch"?
I am wondering why Reps and Dems are the only parameters. Sure, there are other parties, but their candidates aren't even on the ballot in every state so they can't win. The PTB won't gladly open the door to fair competition and without fair competition, there's really no need for a party to change, at least they won't feel a need.
i agree, and wouldn't it be great, if they didn't have a label at all. Just a group of people who want the job aplly, have free time allowed to them on the air, and then they give their plan...the plan could be available on line for anyone who was unable to view their television appearance, no commercials, no campaigns, no labels, majority vote wins...that would be great
What an idea. In fact, George Washington warned against political parties. Then again, those forefather guys were also deathly afraid of democracy.
No commercials. Revolutionary! There is absolutely no reason a campaign has to cost millions of dollars. If you have something to say, put up a website for ten bucks and say it. GoDaddy if you don't want to get up off ten bucks.
Romney failed to capitalize on Obama's vulnerability for the slow recovery. Voters were analogous to slot machine gamblers in a casino who, after putting quarters in a machine that doesn't pay off, move on to another machine with hope but no particular reason to expect better results. Romney failed to convince enough voters that his results would be better.
Ralph, I thought he did pretty good at the smear campaign, so I am hoping more people did actual research, I know I sure did, everything they said was a lie except that Obama was naive of the fact he would be stone walled and promised more than he could deliver.
What Romney's team could have done to win, listen to actual Obama supporters...if the Romney campaign had attacked Obama for the left based promises...they tried to use Libya, but if they would have just tried painting HIM the war monger, or for not keeping his promise to get rid of the Patriot Act, etc. They could have won if they would have went after the left base, so I am glad they weren't that smart :p At least that is what I have heard from those who supported him in 2008 but didn't this time...
The NYT op-ed got it right! The Republicans are a party of old, white men who just don't understand that they are in the minority.
There is a younger, hipper generation of GOP.
If they're smart they'll start listening more to Meghan McCain and take Rove and Limbaugh off the air.
They must also take off Neal Boortz (sp?) and Hannity. These are the guys who keep the old, white women riled up on propagandist fiction and fables.
I'm in the Southeast where states are all colored a hard-right red across the so-called "Bible Belt" in what has been a strong conservative part of the country. The schedule for controlling the election process in these parts goes like this: Early in the process, the Christian associations, usually Baptist, hold a meeting with local ministers attending and the preachers are told what to preach, or preach against in their church services during the coming months. A few weeks prior to election, these associations hold an "annual" meeting where the final preaching standards are decided upon and delivered to the churches for sermons about how to vote in the upcoming election.
This tightly controlled effort to set the minds of hundreds of thousands of church-going voters throughout the "red" states is very effective in achieving a grass-roots majority for a minority party of old white men, a lot of whom are bankers and politicians. The old voters are clueless. These associations do not have a grip on the younger voters, or those who have diverse backgrounds.
The association in my area is "Beaverdam." What is the name of the propaganda association of old, white men in your area?
This is also illegal. Organizations that are politically active stand to lose their non profit status with the IRS. Maybe it's time Beaverdam and its ilk and the IRS were introduced to one another. What interesting bedfellows they would make.
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