Is killing to stagnate a race from killing first right?

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   Phil Perezposted 9 years ago

   In regards to ISIS, is killing the extremists justified? Why cannot we resolve the problem with non-pacifistic means?

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      wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Because they are not interested in anything but exterminating the non-believers of the world. 
      
      Theoretically they could be isolated from all other societies, but we do not really have the means to do that ("we" being the rest of the world).

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         Phil Perezposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, wilderness. I can agree that they feel compelled to eradicate the non-believers from Earth, but I cannot agree that that is their only interest. They want more than just to kill everyone who isn't an extreme believer.
         
         They wouldn't be trying to send a message if they weren't killing though.
         ISIS members understand that killing gets "our" attention. So they kill. Beheading and dismembering people is even more severe and cruel so they do that to clarify that what they want is important and it will not go unnoticed. They want attention, and they've gotten that. Now they want to be heard, which in this case is, "everyone convert or we will forcefully assimilate the non-believers."
         
         They are using physical force to hide their fear that what they want will not happen. They argue with "us" not because they're trying to covey their messages, but because they're looking for a better answer. I say this because if they were confident in their message, they wouldn't need to continuously repeat it. But they are unsure with their methods because they cannot think of other eye-opening ways to be heard. They are more afraid of us than we are of them. The world DEFINITELY has a bigger army than ISIS... the world isn't fighting though? Why? Because they believe something non-physical will be the answer (besides it being too expensive).

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            wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            I disagree: at the bottom of the excuse pile is that non-believers are leading a much better life than Muslims can under the rule of religion.  It is THAT which cannot be permitted, and the only way to stop it is to get rid of the non-believer that has things believers want.  Things like freedom, women's rights and education for all is badly eroding the authority and power of the muslim elite and if allowed to continue will cause their fall from power and control.  Not acceptable, and religion (god's will) is the best (only) tool they have to fight it with.

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               Phil Perezposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               With that claim, I completely agree, wilderness. That is part of the truth of the matter ! I'm sure there will be a resolution eventually...

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                  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Personally, I expect Islam to survive, but not as the extremists want it to and not even as it commonly is today.  It will evolve into a kinder, gentler religion just as Christianity did; it is going through the same growing pains, just a thousand years later.

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                     Phil Perezposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     Exactly, wilderness! The issue with Islam religion is that, they continue to use the same ideals and methods that initially were created and used 1500 years ago when the religion began...

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                        wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        That's my feeling, anyway.  We can either expect Islam to grow up just as Christianity did or die out; it cannot remain the way it is.  And the radicals will be eradicated either by the world in general or by Islam itself; absolutely they cannot survive without massive change.

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      jacharlessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      This is a very serious thing to consider.
      
      Firstly, knowing their numbers are in the range of 100-150K soldiers, plus nearly 7M civilians now living under their current authority, in - what is now eight countries [Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Tunisia, Indonesia], and growing - lends the question: is going to war / killing them going to work? The simplest answer is no. Why? Because, there are other groups so closely similar to them, that replenishing their numbers by partnership / alliance or forceful absorption is going to be quite easy. We have already witnessed this with al Qaeda, Jabhat al-Nusra and others. Larger groups like the Chechens and Boka Haram would in fact align with them against the West, as they too are extreme Salafis.
      
      Boka Haram have slaughtered 100's of thousands of people all over Africa. Ten times more than all the Daesh beheadings, killings, etc. combined. Yet, the organization continues to flourish. Their translation of Sharia is nearly identical to Daesh. Why didn't the Americans, and their 99 member coalition go after Boka Haram, as they are this Islamic State, with over 1500 [useless, unstrategic] aerial strikes, etc? Why are they using the same technique of "training" local rebels -as they tried in Nigeria- and failed epically? What, if any, is a non-pacifist approach to ending it?
      
      The Americans, Britons and French engineered, trained, paid and empowered all these groups when they set out to Balkanize the Middle East. Now it has come full-circle. If the end game is a apocolypse in Dabiq, so be it. If the collective from Judaism, Christianity and Islam believe the prophecies, then instead of pacifying the inevitable, they should be celebrating in the streets that:
      
      Jesus is Coming [for a second time] (as noted in the Koran and Bible) and that Moshiach is coming [for the first time] (as noted in the Torah.
      
      Yes, no?

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         Phil Perezposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Well, I have to admit I'm unfamiliar with Boka Haram and cannot make any opinions on their group/cult. It is unfortunate that that has happened and a few number of people are the only ones aware.
         
         Well a non-pacifist, in my opinion can try to understand and find a way to help the ISIS members understand, that making it our problem isn't going to fix anything instead of trying to retaliate by using extreme force (A.K.A. fight fire with fire). I admit, sometimes, it may seem impossible not to use any kind of force in order to stop a way of thinking, but it also sounds illogical to physically destroy an idea. It's contradicting, really...
         
         Something always comes from an idea, and destroying an idea is arguably not possible, but changing the idea to make it seem reasonable and optimal for humanity is the way to go. Now, figuring out specifically how, is the question.
         
         ISIS and Baka Haram members don't understand life the way secularists do. They act and think selfishly. Obeying an order based on practically nothing.
         
         The point is trying to learn what they want to accomplish and how to help them accomplish it in the most negotiable way. That's honestly what I think. I mean, everyone has a brain and thinks differently so trying to make everybody think the same way like a robot is meaningless and absurd. Obviously they believe their God wants them to believe in their religion in the most extreme ways, however, I just can't understand how our lives have to do with theirs. Hypothetically, if their religion and their faith is correct, we should and will be the ones who are punished. They will receive their reward and good life when they pass away in Heaven and will not. That's all there is to it...right?

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