Thought I'd share this link. I found it fascinating.
"When it comes to Donald Trump, his campaign and their dealings with Russia past and present, sometimes it’s hard to keep track of all the players without a scorecard. We have one of sorts — a deeply comprehensive timeline detailing what actually happened and what’s still happening in the ever-changing story of the president, his inner circle and a web of Russian oligarchs, hackers and government officials.
Since first launched in February 2017, the Trump-Russia Timeline has grown to more than 600 entries — and we will continue to add updates regularly.
What have reporters and investigators already uncovered and made public? What are the connections and patterns? Review the timeline to see."
This is terrible! Trump investigated building a tower in Russia, but the idea was dropped when he decided to run for the presidency. A "politician" (if he can be considered that) exhibiting a sense of ethics - unheard of! Shouldn't we get such a scoundrel out of the White House, and pronto!?
"Agalarov says he and his father had previously signed a letter of intent with their Trump counterparts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow. “He ran for president, so we dropped the idea,” Agalarov says. "
Worse, a man unconnected with the campaign got a loan from an investment firm: clear proof that Trump and Putin are buddies!
"On the day he resigns from the Trump campaign, Paul Manafort records documents creating Summerbreeze LLC, a shell company he controls. Shortly thereafter, Summerbreeze receives a $3.5 million loan from Spruce Capital, a small New York investment firm. "
And Comey - Comey says being around Washington too long is dangerous. This has to prove that Russia fixed our election:
"During lunch with Benjamin Wittes, Comey says he’s worried about Trump’s nominee for deputy attorney general, Rod Rosenstein. “Rod is a survivor,” he says, explaining that a person doesn’t survive for more than 25 years across Republican and Democratic administrations without making compromises."
Truly, PP, if this is the kind of thing we're so afraid of it reminds me of chicken little. An international businessman that looked into (and backed out of) expanding to Russia. Another American got a loan from an American investment firm. And recognition that long term politicians make compromises. I certainly didn't look at 600 pieces of garbage, but if these are indicative of what is there I'm not interested and no one else with any sense is, either.
Okay. I haven't read every piece, either, but the ones I read were simply detailing facts, without any implication of what the facts imply or mean. Isn't that what a timeline is supposed to be? In other words, it's simply of list of known items related to Trump and Russia. I recall reading the Watergate timeline when I was in high school. I don't recall anyone getting bent out of shape over it.
I didn't state that the timeline proved anything, and though I haven't read every word in it, I bet it doesn't state that, either.
When it includes such things as the startling revelation that politicians compromise as a point important enough to set aside into it's own box I have to question whether anything there is of any value.
Same goes for a businessman investigating normal, everyday business deals. They are not pertinent to anything (in this matter) but a liberal witch hunt. Of course Trump has had contacts, however tenuous, with Russians and, given his high flying stance prior to election, almost certainly the Russian government. Exactly as he has done with the American government, English and a dozen more governments.
They are not of interest. Not to anyone not desperately searching for ridiculous reasons to sling mud.
Eh, when one does an investigation, one looks at everything. Comey's take is relevant, given he was the FBI director when the alleged Russian interference occurred. Trump's contacts with Russia will be examined. If they are meaningless to the investigation, there will be no problem. Surely, you understand why they would at least be looked at? These are just the known facts. Mueller has access to WAY more information than is listed in this timeline.
I really don't understand why you find a simple timeline offensive. It is just information. As I previously stated, I have not, as yet, seen any interpretations of, or conclusions about, this information anywhere in this timeline. It is just information that is known.
"If they are meaningless to the investigation, there will be no problem."
Surely you jest. There is a major problem whether any contact is found or not, as those with TDS have been screaming "foul" for many months, pretending they KNOW Putin and Trump are hand in hand in ruining our election. Findings may well be meaningless to an investigation of wrongdoing, but that will not affect how those findings are treated in the minds of those that cannot contain themselves after losing an election. Lies will be told, findings will be spun until they are as twisted as a little girls braid and NO ONE will ever give the full story.
One only has to go back to the comments coming from the ODS (Obama Disorder Syndrome) crowd when he produced his birth certificate to see what will happen. It was immediately declared fake, "proven" so with "scientific" analysis that made no sense whatsoever.
The timeline is not offensive. The insinuations being made are. You haven't seen interpretations, I haven't seen interpretations, but you know as well as I do that interpretations are being made in the minds of millions of people that hate Donald Trump with a passion. Any and all possibilities become fodder for the mud mill and that is exactly what will be done. Mark my words; we will see more cries for impeachment out of this, cries that zero basis for them but will further divide the country as the ignorant become convinced that there was evil afoot when a business deal was considered and discarded.
So, in a nutshell, your objection is that a presentation of a timeline of known facts in the investigation will result in interpretations by the reader?
My primary objection to this presentation is that it is absolutely worthless...for deciding if criminal activity is present. On the other hand, it is great for more wild accusations, spin and divisiveness.
I guess I have yet to figure out what is being looked for. It appears that those with severe TDS are simply looking for something, anything at all, that they can use to demonize the President. This whole thing has gone through a dozen transformations as to what we knew and wanted to prove - it appears to be a never ending search for anything useful as a political weapon.
And I do have a major problem with that. Our political process has deteriorated into little but mud slinging, and that's not good for us or for the nation. When we care far more about appearance and our ability to raise hatred and fear than we do about the nation we have a problem, and that's exactly what this is about. A witch hunt, a desperate search for minor transgressions that can be turned into a bonfire by loudly shouting about nothing.
I don't care if Donald Trump knows a Russian citizen. I don't care if he has a business connection there. I don't even care that much if Wikileaks or some foreign government gave him dirt on Clinton - we live in a world wide society where every country and ever person on the planet has something to say about our politicians and a desire for an American president that will benefit them. It's a fact of life, and we "participate" in their elections the same way. To suddenly become massively concerned about it after losing an election is the height of hypocrisy. IMO.
So, as far as I can see, this isn't about America, what it needs or what might harm it. It is about finding political dirt on the President so that more hatred can be spread through the country. It's about keeping an outsider out of American politics via innuendo and hate mongering. It's all about spin and how to convince a gullible public that what is irrelevant is the most important thing in the world. And it's about keeping the status quo in Washington right where it is - about our country being run by politicians and scoundrels whose primary concern is their personal fortunes and power rather than the people.
So, your opinion of the timeline is that it is absolutely worthless.
How should the media present information about the investigation?
You already agreed the timeline did not offer any interpretation of the facts presented, so what method should the media use to report the known facts surrounding the investigation?
First explain why the insatiable and greedy appetite of the citizenry needs any feeding at all. Why not simply wait and see what comes out of it rather than give out juicy tidbits for people to blow into mountains? In a criminal investigation, say of a cop murdering someone, we don't make daily announcements as to what we find - it is to remain quiet until a trial so as not to prejudice that trial. Or is that the real intent here? To make it impossible to have a fair trial, to guarantee an indictment/conviction based on public opinion rather than truth?
But here's something else to think about: So far we've spent nearly 7 million dollars, over 7 months, researching the "russian connection" (and anything else that might be found during that investigation, such as money laundering years ago or foreign lobbying). How many congressmen could survive a 7 million dollar investigation, with all the resources of the FBI, CIA, TSA and every other federal and local bureau, without ending up either fired or in jail? How many ordinary man-in-the-street citizens? Could you stand up to that kind of search without them finding a single item to charge you with?
Yes, I believe I would withstand a $7 million investigation without a single charge against me.
As for the rest, citizens have a right to know what their elected officials are doing. They work for us. We hire them and fire them through our votes. Employers often fire people who are charged with crimes, even though they haven't yet been found guilty or innocent.
I have to say, I am really surprised that you would advocate keeping citizens in the dark about an ongoing investigation of any elected official. After all, what would have been the result of the last election had there been no reporting of the known facts in the HRC investigation? Many Trump voters cited Hillary's "crimes" as why they voted for Trump despite his many flaws. You yourself have repeatedly stated Hillary has committed crimes (over 100!), yet she has not even been indicted much less convicted.
I confess, I find your position here to be untenable.
Ever speed with a passenger in the car? Ever make a mistake on an IRS or any other govt. form - maybe a typo the IRS didn't catch? Ever run a stoplight? Get a parking ticket? Got an overdue library book, anytime in the last 20 years? Steal a pen from the bank? Ever have your car insurance lapse for a single day? Ever move to a new city/state and not have ALL the utility bills catch up with you? Ever leave a dent in the wall of a rental home? It isn't possible in today's world to live a life totally within the law. And of course it doesn't end with the law - my emails go out with a misspelling in my name that I can't figure out how to fix. Why? What have I got to hide? Why not give my real name? Obviously a pact with the devil!
Do we? We really have a "right" to know every detail of Trumps 4B$ worth of business holdings? What brand of sanitary product his daughter uses? I'm sorry, but we do NOT have a right to every detail of their private lives - being a public employee does not mean they live in a glass house.
Of course they should be in the dark. Any competent investigation is going to see things that are not relevant to that investigation but would destroy him politically or emotionally. Trump is innocent at this point, but just like those congressmen resigning over allegations (allegations!) he will lose everything if the world knows every detail of his life. We all would - that's the way the world works today.
You're just getting ridiculous now. I don't think a $7 million investigation would be conducted only to charge someone with running a stoplight or stealing a pen. I thought we were having a legitimate discussion but with that last post, you have devolved to arguing for the sake of arguing.
And, yes, we have a right to know pertinent details in any investigation of an elected official.
Last, you didn't address the contradiction between your stated belief that Hillary has committed 100 crimes -- knowledge that you could only have gained gained from media reporting on her investigation and that you admittedly used as a basis for your evaluation of her as a candiandate -- and your other stated belief that the media detailing the known facts in the current investigation is "absolutely worthless."
You miss the point. With 7M and 7 months, an investigation WILL find things out of line. And you're wanting to know all about them. Yes, you say only "pertinent" facts, but I don't believe that and don't think you do, either. Pertinent is in the mind of the listener, and the listeners have degenerated into wanting to know every small fact that could possibly be used to cause political damage. One has only to listen to those wanting every detail of Trump's business dealings to understand this.
Yep, we found out about her emails. At the end of the investigation, when the findings were reported. We didn't hear about her bank accounts, we didn't hear about who she talked to, we didn't hear when and where she traveled - we heard the results of the investigation about emails. And that's ALL.
If all those details are useful to the public, tell me - just what IS that use? To exaggerate a legitimate business deal, or even an investigation into the possibility of one, into "collusion"? One of them, so important, was that Putin attended a beauty pageant - of what use is that knowledge to the public? So that an irrelevant event can be used to arouse an irrational emotional response in people?
No, PP - when the FBI has found actual collusion with Russia to fix the election (the current stated goal), then let them take it to congress or a grand jury. At that point, the public has a right to know anything that will be used to prosecute, or might be used to prosecute, Trump. The rest of it, destroy as irrelevant and an unwarranted foray into private matters that don't matter. And for God's sake, quit re-defining the goal of the investigation every time nothing can be found!
I see this as quite similar to a court issued warrant - it must clearly state what is being searched for and where the search can take place. Any findings outside the scope of that warrant are inadmissible and certainly not available to make public.
We're must going to have to agree to disagree on the usefulness of the time line.
LOL As I hit the "submit" button I was thinking that that would be my next post. I do believe we've beat this one to death, and will not find agreement anywhere.
Another time, another place, PP. Thank you for the discussion; I really do enjoy a respectful talk with someone of a very different viewpoint. It is always an education, and I appreciate learning something new.
Trump still hasn't divested himself from his businesses nor shown his income taxes either, like other modern presidents. Now he's between a rock and a hard place. Good enough for him...almost.
Trump's businesses are in a Trust, he has no association with it. Like every president, President Trump is being audited, as soon as the audit is done his tax information will be released to the public. Sarah Sanders was asked about Trump's tax info just the other day by a journalist that evidently can't remember that.
Sarah Sanders = Orange POS' version of Bagdad Bob or Joseph Goebbels. Bad example. Goebbels was taken seriously at the time.
Liberals naively thinks it's got a laundry list of Trump / Russian related collusion , and what they actually have are a couple of guys that lied to FBI "investigators ", Flynn for one .................nada .
Now wanna make something out of that ? Please .............?
Pretty Panther ; I actually laughed when I saw your source , It actually is pretty sad if we didn't ALL realize your zeal for political / personal hatred of Trump .
And you say I'm biased ?.........Use a real media source next time .
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by promisem 5 years ago
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