Guns out of control in the United States

1. 92

   habeeposted 15 years ago

   BTW, Dad's pistol was already cocked, and the perp's wasn't. My dad wasn't stupid. He quickly assessed the situation and believed he had the advantage. Anyway, if Dad had just allowed the guy to rob him, the thug might have killed him, anyway. Compliance doesn't always equal safety.

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      Google Galposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      right on with that last sentence habee

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   Ralph Deedsposted 15 years ago

   Times Square Shootout--
   A security guard at the Marquis reported hearing the sergeant yell, “Stop! Stop! Show me your hands!” The guard told the police he saw the vendor pull something from his coat — the submachine gun, which the police said later had been stolen in Virginia in October.
   
   The video showed Mr. Martinez turning, the police said, but he moved out of camera range. Police officials, who did not immediately release the video, said it also showed the sergeant reaching for his weapon and raising it.
   
   It also showed Sergeant Newsom, who has been on the force for 17 years, raising his left arm over his chest in hopes of protecting his heart. It is a defensive move rookies are taught in the Police Academy. Police officials were astonished that the sergeant, less than 15 feet from the stubby barrel of a semiautomatic weapon with no hope of taking cover, was cool-headed enough to remember to do so.
   
   Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said Mr. Martinez fired first, getting off two shots. Then his gun jammed.
   
   Mr. Kelly said the sergeant fired four shots. All four hit Mr. Martinez: in the chest, below the neck and in the left arm; he also suffered a graze wound to the right arm.
   
   Of the two bullets that Mr. Martinez fired, one smashed into the plate-glass window of a souvenir shop in the promenade; the glass shattered, leaving a bullet hole to the right of a “Wicked” snow globe souvenir. The other bullet hit a glass panel near the marquee for the Marquis Theater, in the same building as the hotel.
   
   The police said they found 27 more bullets in Mr. Martinez’s gun. Read the whole article here--
   
   
   http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/nyreg … f=nyregion

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   Leta Sposted 15 years ago

   Yeah, Ghost...  But what do you think of the new Groovy law in Arizona making it legal to carry a concealed gun into a bar?
   
   
   
   I think it will turn out extra Saturday Night Special!
   
   Leave it to AZ.

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4. 64

   Lisa HWposted 15 years ago

   It's a good thing I don['t have a gun with me right now, because I just may pull an Elvis Presley and shoot out my television screen.  I made the mistake of thinking it might be good to put on television, since I'm home on a Friday night - wrong!

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5. 77

   SweetiePieposted 15 years ago

   It is perfectly okay to be anti-gun and in favor of gun control.  I have lived in some very dangerous cities, and I am a life long pedestrian.  I would feel much more comfortable running and shouting for safety than carrying a gun, and I never will.  I think those of us who hate guns should not be ashamed for saying so.  It is okay to hate guns, and not have to apologize to the gun enthusiasts for it.  No we are not going to take away your second amendment rights, so just calm down if we express are dislike for these devices.

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      AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I have to sympathize with this. Being a (naturalized) Canadian (so not growing up hunting, like so many (rural) Canadians), and coming from a country (Britain), where even the police do not carry guns, despite there being some pretty crime-ridden places (Glasgow, for example), there, I share the near-universal aversion to handguns being in the possession of average citizens that most Canadians have.
      
      Nevertheless, some of the arguments presented here were very interesting -- just goes to show: rather than prejudge an entire people, better to hear what they actually have to say... now, if we can only learn that in Iraq and Afghanistan, but that's a story for another day...

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         SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I just have to shake my head when people say you have to have a gun to be safe.  You know I have come to the conclusion my extreme dislike for guns goes against what many Americans love, so I just have to go with it.  I have lived in urban areas that are not safe, and I walk and keep my wits about me.  I live in a safer area now, but even when I lived in some other places nothing would possess me to own a gun.  Not real excited about war, but it looks like we will be there for awhile.  In my own personal life I am much more of a pacifist than some people I suppose.

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            AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Take a look at some of the arguments on this thread; I found some of them interesting. Maybe you should just ban bullets only (this was a joke, for anyone else reading )

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               SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Interesting and true arguments for them, but for me I know deep down I do not have to own a gun to be safe.  You can get hurt in many situations, and a gun will not necessarily always give you more protection.  I just like to be the divergent voice that says Americans who do not like guns can stand up and say so.

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                  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  This seems right. The beauty of true democracy (perhaps the very hallmark of true democracy) is the ability to express an opinion; that's why all those Eastern Europeans were cheering so much twenty years ago last month; I am sure some of them cared less about getting their hands on new VCR's than they did about being able to speak their own minds...

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                     SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     Some really pro-gun Americans tell you what you are supposed to think and believe if you are anti-gun.  They say you will be safer if you do it their way, but that is not necessarily the case.  Some of them also think you will be better off as a person when you have a driver's license, and I do not have one of those either .  Sometimes I just realize I am different than a lot of Americans, and I think some people find that disconcerting.  People do not know how to respond to you if you are not exactly like them.

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                        tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        And some really anti-gun Americans do the same thing, right?

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                           AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           Of course -- does this really need to be stated; she has already said that people who are pro-gun have a right to their views, and a right... to their rights; she is hardly trying to stir anything up!

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                              tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                              Please. It was just another "Have you noticed how other people (those who don't hold the same views) think they're right and want everyone to agree with them?" exercise in subjectivity.

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                                 AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                 Man, maybe your dog should write your posts. I mean, I know neither you nor sweetie pie personally, (obviously), but if a person can say they don't like something but say other people have a right to that thing (which she does, explicitly), that sounds like a pretty damn good basis for a society, to me

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                                    tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                    How about people who say "Gosh, people who don't like what I like sure seem to want others to agree with them," as if to imply that those who agree with them do not (being naturally right and all).

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                                       AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                       You should be allowed to say anything, in my book; and others should be allowed to criticize anything you say -- which is what you are doing to her, and what I am doing to you, so all is right with the world, and let's thank the heavens we were all born in modern democracies -- it could've been otherwise...

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                                          tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                          Then we are good to go.

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                        tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        Pro-gun Americans want you to have a driver's license? Anti-gun Americans don't?

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                           AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           Did you read the whole exchange. She has in no way an adversarial stance on this whatsoever; she is just saying she finds guns distasteful. I mean, I know you have a nasty attack dog as your pic, but you don't have to act like one yourself (just kidding, it's a cute dog lol)

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                              tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                              He is a cuddly embassador of love and has no political agenda I know of!
                              
                              
                              And he is getting a bath today! (oh, my achin' back...)

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                              tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                              But does she find driving distasteful?

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                                 AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                 I find cars extremely distasteful, to be honest with you (especially in the last twenty years, since the idea of stylishness or coolness seems to be out the window in terms of design). For a pedestrian/cyclist like myself they are a royal pain in the ass, and a source of noise pollution when I'm sitting in my living room or trying to sleep; but if I said they shouldn't be allowed I'd expect my fellow Canadians to chuck me in the ocean, and applaud them for doing so (I mean, if I tried to get them banned: "saying" something should not be grounds for ocean-chucking, which is kind of my point

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                                    tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                    I don't think you should be driving a car when you are trying to sleep, and cyclists are in fact a pain in the ass that should be cast into the ocean. Or maybe do that ice floe thing...

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                                       AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                       Yes cyclists are a pain in the ass, no question; in fact, drivers of vehicles, whether two-wheeled or four are often pains in the ass; too early for ice floes yet, but probably cold enough to die of hypothermia within a few minutes (being on the North Atlantic rather than the Pacific, sadly...)

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                                          tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                          I'm willing to give them the option. See how non-partisan I am?

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                           SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           Wonder why some people stay out of the forum?  It is because of people like TK.  By the way, I reserve the right to think driving is not fun, and if TK has a problem with that, well then I have illustrated my point.  Some people are unable to handle divergent views, such as someone stating they do not want to own a handgun.  If that is stirring the pot, I should say not. However TK certainly stirs the pot, and shows little respect for most posters.

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                              tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

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                                 SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                 I think you really cannot read what people are saying.  You are being trollish here.  Stop it, and allow divergent thoughts to be expressed.  Know you cannot do it, but you need to evolve beyond this point.

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                                    tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                    I read exactly what people say. People are often careless in their choice of words.

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                              tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                              I haven't noticed anyone insisting that everyone own a handgun.

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                                 SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                 Yes many pro-gun people insist others should come over to their way of thinking.  Yes some anti-gun people do too, but I have dealt primarily with the pro-gun ones.  Anyway, TK, your lack of respect for others is shining through.  You can misconstrue my words, but it is evident in your every action you have very little respect.  Glad not to act this way.

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                                    tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                    Who on this thread has insisted that everyone own a handgun?

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                                       SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                       Well if you actually read what I had said you would noticed I have talked about people I dealt with.  That is okay TK because I know you have an extreme disdain for anyone expressing liberal opinions.  If I posted on here that wanted to be just like Sarah Palin and shooting wolves from a helicopter you would not care, but because I said I have a disdain for handguns you take notice.  I am entitled to the right not to like them, but I know my dislike for these will not keep others from owning guns. 
                                       
                                       Also, I can go weeks without eating any meat, and I would never dream of hunting.  If it came down to it I would plant a garden and eat beans from it rather than hunt.

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                                          tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                          Yes, you adjusted your comments after being asked twice about the original post.
                                          
                                          I'll ask again: Who on this thread has insisted that everyone own a handgun?

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                                             SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                             Your question is ridiculous, and your lack of respect is shining through.  Have fun playing because I have better things to do.

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                                                tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                The notion is ridiculous, but I didn't bring it up in the first place.

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                                                   marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                   Why are you always causing trouble?

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                                                      tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                      I'm trying to discuss the topic rather than individual personalities.

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                                                         marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                         I was just messing with you.

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                                                            tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                            Oops. Went right over my head!

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                                                               Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                               I AM SHOCKED!

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                                             Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                             Who on this thread has insisted that nobody own a handgun?

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                                                marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                Who hates all conservatives for believing different from yourself and your president you have so much faith in?

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                                                tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                I never claimed that anyone had so insisted.

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                                                   Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                   So the debate is over what are reasonable rules for sale and use of guns.

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                                                      tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                      That's closer to on-topic than this thread has been for some time.

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                                                         Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                                         Thanks, TK. That may be the first time you agreed with a comment of mine! (I'm not trying to start another argument!)

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                                    tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                    How 'bout we focus on the topic instead of attacking me personally?

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                                       SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                       Actually the only one doing the attacking is you here.  You are highly disrespectful, and you really need to evolve past it.  I am always on topic, and if you have noticed I actually have taken a considerable break from the forums.

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                                          tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                          That is not correct. Let's stick to the topic.

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6. 92

   habeeposted 15 years ago

   I can understand people not liking guns and/or being afraid of them. Some people are scared of horses, some of dogs. Personally, I'm scared of mice and would never (purposely) have one in my home.

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   mikelongposted 15 years ago

   One in four people in Venezuela carry handguns when traveling in public,at least up until a few years ago. I don't think anything would have changed.
   
   As seen in "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" it is citizens of Venezuela that have to shoot back at military police members who have backed a coup to take President Chavez out of the country and give power back to the oligarchs who the United States support.....Gulf Oil being one such enterprise, and the Mellon family being one beneficiary, at least formerly, of Venezuela's oil.
   
   As Americans our fundamental of all philosophies is checks and balances. The three branches of government are separate entities because one is not supposed to trump over the others. Each is to be self-interested, and even in some sense in competition with the others.
   
   As the government law enforcement is supposed to be at its essence an armed group of citizens, it has actually been a tool of elites used to persecute those deemed "dangerous" or "unwanted".
   
   It is important that citizens keep arms. If a person, family, or group chooses not to that is their decision, but they should not infringe on something that is vital to the sovereignty of this nation's people.
   
   For all the hype about violent crime it is important to know that, for how many people with guns we have, murders are down, and have been going down while media reporting has emphasized otherwise.
   
   Also, being that the American system is seemingly so fragile, that is if one is of the majority of "poor" that the 2006 Citigroup memo on plutonomy speak of, and those who can cause individuals, families, and communities the most harm are already armed to the teeth, isn't it in one's best interest to be equally, in some way, prepared for whatever may come?
   
   Reading back into American history, while our period of time seems to be violent, the American government used to pay citizens to collect scalps. Slaves in American communities were lynched, burned at the stake, and worse....and all of this used to be spectacle for whites of all ages and a lesson for the blacks...
   
   It's important to remember, as well, that guns didn't alter violence per se....knife fighting was very popular across Europe and the United States... 
   
   Go to google and check out images collected there, and see the old, young, male, and female faces all around.
   
   And then there's Rosewood........
   
   While there is still a very violent, hatefule streak in America's social collective self, acts of violence have declined....at least for the very short period of time that "objective" statistics have been qualitatively and quantitatively collected.
   
   We have more people here than ever before packed more tightly together than ever before.....there were only 1 billion people on this planet in 1860 and there are over 6 billion now.....the U.S. population fifty years ago even cannot be truly compared to today....and we are at 1950's levels for violent crime....gun related or otherwise.

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   tksenseiposted 15 years ago

   Coup  + Chaves +  Shoot   = good

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      mikelongposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Ignorance + Pride = stupidity

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         tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Big supporter of the Venezuelan dictator, are you? Is this Danny Glover?

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   mikelongposted 15 years ago

   Have you read "Celie, a Slave" yet?

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10. 60

    mikelongposted 15 years ago

    http://www.freedocumentaries.org/int.php?filmID=97

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11. 74

    Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

    Some Americans believe its their God given right ( not sure where they get that from) to 'bear arms' so while they have that mentality ,every time they put two and two together ,they will get 5...

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       SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       King David had a sling.

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          SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          She has a right to her opinion, and I agree with her actually.

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             SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             It was only a little joke Sweetie.

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12. 82

    Aya Katzposted 15 years ago

    It may or may not be "God given" but it's in the constitution.

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       Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Yes and some treat the Constitution ,like its the Bible,just my observations.

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          tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          And some people treat it like an etch-a-sketch

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13. 71

    rhamsonposted 15 years ago

    I think a better title for this thread would be "People out of control in the United States" would have been more apropo. Guns don't shoot people by themselves.

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       C.J. Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Yep, the only country out there that is even remotely comparable is Canada....they own guns at relatively the same rate as America, with a lower rate of gun crime.  If people would look past the gun and gun laws to see what is actually causing differing results we might be able to get somewhere.....
       
       I believe it's attitude.....Canadians seem to be just as independent as American's. However, you don't see Canada getting involved in everyone else's affairs(Global Politics). This may on the surface seem unrelated, however I believe it speaks to an attitude difference.....Americans are more willing to use force to impose their will on others.

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          Danny R Handposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          AMEN!!!

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          LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Canadians own nowhere near the same amount of guns as Americans. American has 90 guns per 100 people, Canada has only 31.5 guns per 100 people. So if I did my calculations right Canada only has about 10,000,000 guns while America has about 270,000,000 guns.

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             megs78posted 14 years agoin reply to this

             not true.  yes, less people may own guns in canada, but the ones that do, own more than 1.  making the comparison very close.

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                LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. There are about 37,000,000 Canadians and they have 10,000,000 guns. There are 300,000,000 Americans and they own 270,000,000 guns. The comparison is not even close.

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                   megs78posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   this is not me making stuff up.  this has been reported time and time again.  i don't know where you get your exact stats from, but whatever.

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                      LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … _ownership

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                         megs78posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         and anyway, the link you provided states that a civilian supplied country such as the US can have distorted stats because of owners having large gun collections.  but like i said earlier, I really don't believe its about the guns so this is kind of a moot point.

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    AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years ago

    Anyone know what percentage of homicides in the US are perpetrated with guns, as opposed to some other method? Just curious, not trying to stoke the fires, just wondering

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    Ralph Deedsposted 15 years ago

    

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16. 82

    Mike Lickteigposted 15 years ago

    Instead of concealed handgun provisions, if we MUST have guns, let's make it like the wild west and keep everything out in the open.  If it's legal to carry a firearm, why should I have to guess if a guy has a gun or not?  It should be illegal to HIDE a gun on your person.  In that way, we can know who is packing and who isn't.

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    lxxyposted 15 years ago

    It's inane to think that outlawing guns would do much to prevent people to acquire fire arms; all you're doing is making them inaccessible to the responsible citizens.
    
    Shootings are disgusting..and it's certainly easy to blame guns on Virginia Tech and other outrageous acts of violence. It's worth to note that SSRI's such as ritalin, prozac, zoloft, etc. are present in most of the school shooting cases. Either the perp s were on them, or going through withdrawal. Which is an even more dangerous time, considering the rate of prozac-related suicide.
    
    These drugs are shown to increase the odds of suicidal or homicidal behavior, despite their use to cure depression and other mental disorders.
    
    In short...giving up your right to arm yourself is no means of securing your safety.
    
    A cultural shift and a negative view on violence would probably be more of a helpful solution. But violence is as American as apple pie.

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    Danny R Handposted 14 years ago

    prescription drug companies sell medications for non-lethal skin conditions that CAN have fatal side effects. Right now Toyota is recalling millons of vehicals (not by choice), because it is becoming obvious that negligence has cost lives. Alcohol kills more people every year either directly or in related instances than any other thing out there. I don't believe in doing away with the 2nd admendment. I do advocate more restrictions based on common sense. But the problem will never be addressed until you deal with the lobbiest for special interest. Beacause like it or not in todays America, MONEY overrides common sense or even peoples lives.

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    Rafiniposted 14 years ago

    Although I agree the Second Amendment is outdated, by stating firearms, I think it only needs updating to state restrictions - which firearms are legal to own by whom, and which firearms are legal to be sold to the general public.

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    moonphlowerposted 14 years ago

    Guns aren't out of control, PEOPLE are out of control!

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    readytoescapeposted 14 years ago

    Does the number really matter? You can only hold one long gun or two handguns at a time. Personally I prefer the two handguns, I carry one large frame and one small for backup both chambered in .45 caliber.
    
    The issue is who has them. We already have to many gun control laws on the books, just enforce them.

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    A Texanposted 14 years ago

    You anti gun people scare me!
    
    Which means I will now carry 2 pistols on me at all times!

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    The government should never have the monopoly on firearms....the Second Amendmend may have had some different connotation to it when it was devised.  Yet, in my opinion, an armed populace (to some degree) is an important aspect of checks and balances that needs to be maintained...

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    megs78posted 14 years ago

    the fact is there are 31 million Canadians and we own 7.4 million guns.  The US has a population of 274 million people and 222 million guns.
    
    Yes, the states have more, but relatively speaking, we are pretty close.  so why is our murder rate not relatively close to the States? 
    
    Maybe its because in Canada there are 3.3 people per square kilometre and in the US there are 29 people per square kilometre.  Maybe its an issue of claustrophobia.  who knows!

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       LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Your stats are wrong. There are 34 million Canadians and they have 31.5 guns per 100 people, so 31.5% which comes out to 10,710,000 guns. There are 308 million Americans and they have 90 guns per 100 people, so 90% which comes out to 277,200,000. Relatively speaking, we are not close.

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          megs78posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          ok, maybe you're right.  but the fact remains, it can't be a gun problem, it has to be something else.  thats my point.

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             LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I agree, I believe that it is something else.

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                A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                A lack of morals maybe?

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    ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

    The murder rate has nothing to do with guns.  It has to do with the makeup of society.  Canadians are, as a group, far more homogeneous than Americans.  Yes, yes, I know there are immigrants to Canada, but not to the extent there is in the US. 
    
    Let's look at a very homogeneous society like Japan.  Little crime, little disorder.  Why?  Because aside from the Ainu and some Koreans, Japan is Japanese.
    
    Let's look at at very heterogeneous society.  Yugoslavia for one.  After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the country disintegrated and gave the world the term balkanization.  For a good long time, the Balkans were the most dangerous area in the world to try to live.
    
    Need another example?  Rawanda.  Hutsi and Tutus living under one artificial flag.  What's the result?  Genocide.
    
    Why is the West generally different?  The US, and Canada too, are enriched by our immigrants.  Sure we have a higher crime rate, but we don't have atrocities on the scale of Rawanda or the Balkans.  That is the real question we should be asking, because I'm sure the answers are very significant.

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    donotfearposted 14 years ago

    Hi! I'm Donotfear, from the deep South.  I'm radical and out of control clinging to my God, my guns, my country, and my hound dog. I have a whole slew of these babies in my arsenol. You can bet I'm always packin' honey! Cause I'm a radical conservative from the deep South!
    
    

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       A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Danged ol hillbilly!

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    ahorsebackposted 14 years ago

    The absolute and profound blindness of anti- gunners is trying to the very existance of common sense ! You want real action on gun control , yet , in Vermont last year a man killed his ex with an iron frying pan and will serve eight years . Every day the guy sitting beside you in a bar runs down a child on a street somewhere in America and leaves a family devastated. Doctors make idiotic mistakes that kill people in hospitals on a daily basis. Priests and ministers are groping your daughters in the church basements, serial killers are being paroled into the next county down the road fom you. Judges play golf with the defence attourny's while making deals on the green. You elect politicians like you vote on American Idol and expect real leadership. And you think a piece of iron with a hole in it actually kills people. "Yes , I want to be like an anti gun nut when I grow up daddy"........

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