Alabama: whats goin' wrong?
Who let the rightwingers off from their leashes, this time?
Another Salon article, liberal bias, perhaps, but can the factual information contained in the article be denied?
https://www.salon.com/2019/05/15/alabam … red-state/
So, now they are "gunning" for Roe vs Wade, and with the right wing tribunal Trump created to replace the Supreme Court, an overturn may not be so far fetched
This is just a harbinger of what the GOP has in store for all women across the nation. How do you like it?Roe vs Wade is not going to be overturned...
Although we have some religious nut jobs out there attempting to push their beliefs on everyone...The constitution will over-rule their beliefs...
I am hoping this gets looked at by the SCOTUS quickly, so it can be shot down.I hope that you are right as a coat hanger hangs in the balance.
I hope I am right as well...
Roe vs Wade is a pretty solid decision by the SCOTUS...so I am confident that the current SCOTUS will not over-turn it. I think they will end up deciding these new laws are unconstitutional and they will have to be revoked.They will because right-thinking people will protest such draconian laws. However, the Deep South in the United States have a far different culture than the rest of the country. The Deep South is a bed of atavistic ideology. Think Bible Belt folks! People in the Bible Belt think & believe far differently than the rest of us...…….
Yes. I mentioned something to that effect in an earlier post...These outlandish laws are coming from a religious belief and not supported by the constitution. So, I am of the opinion that they will be over-ruled and hopefully much sooner than later.
Women AREN'T about to let their reproductive rights be REVOKED by a totalitarian, backward Republican. Most women believe in abortion. They know the benefits of reproductive choice. No woman in her right mind is about to have Roe vs. Wade overturned. WE feminists & other modern women have FOUGHT TOO HARD for this!
It WILL be shot down. America is becoming a progressive state, especially in terms of women. There are only a few retrogressives out there. Even conservatives are pro-choice & pro-equality in terms of human rights. It is only the reactionaries, fundamentalists, & retrogressives who want to turn back the clock on women's reproductive rights & general rights.
I agree...The majority of Conservatives are not as backwards thinking as many think...But, just as the extreme liberal minorities, the few that are very backward thinking are very loud in their opinions.
I suspect it will come down to Chief Justice John Roberts and how he votes.
Will he go with the four conservatives who will probably vote to overturn Roe vs. Wade?
Or will he stick with the four liberals to avoid the massive civil unrest that overturning the law will trigger?
Some pundits think the Supreme Court will make it a states rights issue. They will allow some states to make abortion illegal again while others will keep it legal.I don't know...I don't think this one is going to be split down the middle...I am thinking it will be more of a 7-2 or 8-1 for upholding Roe vs Wade.
Can you tell me why you think it will be that strongly in favor of upholding it?
The court has been very split down the middle on quite a few issues in recent years as moderates have retired. We're now left with just liberals and conservatives.Roe vs Wade is a strong sound decision. So I think that it will be difficult to justify over-turning from a legal stand-point...It would have to come from a religious stand-point...and even the conservatives are not that religiously strict to make a change in a sound legal decision.
When you have folks like Pat Roberson saying it is over-board, I would have to say even conservatives are not fond of these new laws.
-MThis Supreme Court journalist with 30+ years of legal experience makes a compelling case that SCOTUS will erode abortion rights rather than dump Roe in a single decision.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na- … story.htmlI am hopeful that this person is wrong. We have come a long way in the last 30+ years, and it would be very sad for us to revert back to a less enlightened mindset.
In the age of Trump what was once thought of as impossible can now occur tomorrow. The Rightwinger ,by very definition, fears modernity.
I don't agree. What you are referring to is more of a minority opinion among the extreme right...just as there is outlandish minority opinions from the extreme left.
A greater majority of people are more moderate +/- some personal views that lean left or right.
A good example is displayed in the popularity of Joe Biden over the other democrat candidates. Joe is more of a moderate Democrat than most of the others running.
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Hi, Promisem, I like the new look.
I don't know which way Chief Justice Roberts will vote, but one thing is certain, massive protest and demonstrations will sweep conservatives and rightwingers out of office if this comes down the wrong way and that may well be the silver lining here.Thanks, Credence. Somehow it makes me look a lot younger than I actually am.
I agree that a vote to overturn Roe will likely lead to massive protests unlike anything we have seen in a long time. It will certainly galvanize a lot of people into political action.
Then again, I don't believe SCOTUS is dumb enough to unload the entire thing. Maybe they'll simply weaken it somehow.Of course, if the powers that be think of overturning Roe vs. Wade, all HELL will break loose. There will be mini-Civil War. I will be the first in regiments! Overturning of Roe vs. Wade- AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN & OVER MY DEAD BODY!
Honestly, I hope it's overturned so that people in this country will wake up and realize that voting is important and has real consequences.
But, it will be such a HARD lesson that I would prefer that people would not have to learn.
It will be hard, but if that's what it takes to open people's eyes to what the right-wing wants in this country, perhaps it's best for the future of humanity.
America has gone too far to let a bunch of retrogressives overturn the abortion law. There is no way in hell that Roe vs. Wade will be overturned. Women are ever vigilant regarding this. Women want their abortion rights.
Let's go beyond hope, Crank. Let protest to ascertain that such a draconian law WILL BE OVERTURNED. This woman governor in Alabama is what I deem to be a gender traitor. In my estimation, any woman who is against abortion is a gender traitor.
I see problems, while I hope that any challenge to Roe Vs Wade is repulsed, with the make up of the court it may allow for the states to individually decide how they would approach the issue.
But, the Rightwingers as a group will never be satisfied until they control each and every womb from coast to coast.The poster you are responding has LFL. People with LFL are against abortion. They are even against birth control. They are staunchly pro-life. They believe that if the woman & girl becomes pregnant, they ought to have the child. They believe that the purpose of sex is procreation, no more no less.
So you believe that women should have UNWANTED children...……….
VEHEMENTLY DETEST SUCH AN ATAVISTIC LAW! You know that Alabama is in tie with Mississippi as being one of the most backward states in America. I am totally against the gender traitor governor who wants to implement this draconian abortion law. However, the "governor" indicated that there will be legal huddles regarding this law which is good. Right thinking people have to fight against this atavistically draconian law. I am staunchly pro-choice- in fact, I believe in abortion on demand (within reason of course). I believe that no woman or girl should endure an unwanted pregnancy- that is beyond evil.
GDPR Deleted
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. You are right in your premise. According to reactionaries & retrogressives, a "good" woman has "sanctioned" sex while a "bad" woman expresses her sexuality. To these reactionaries & retrogressives, if a woman expresses her sexuality beyond what is "sanctioned", if she becomes pregnant-well that is the punishment & she must bear it.
The next to your last sentence expresses the point of many reactionary & retrogressive men who are against women having sexual autonomy. Somehow such men are threatened by a strong, sexually autonomous woman.Nice to see you Tess, thanks for dropping in.
Evangelical Christians are phonies. They claim that they follow God and Jesus, but they worship only Trump and Right wing politics. A most detistible, hypocritical lot.
I wish that they were as concerned about the children after birth as they seem to be about the prenatal stages.
This is a back door assualt on women's rights. You control their reproductive prerogatives, what is next?
From our Neaderthol Rightwinger there is an innate fear of female sexuality.
I never hear so many drastic options to control male promiscuity.GDPR Deleted
It is nice to see you in the forums. Welcome Tessa.
I think understanding at an emotional level was an appropriate choice of words Tess. Usually, true understanding must start at some foundational level, and I can't think of a more foundational level than that of emotions.
Consider this; Put aside the fanatics and true hypocrites, the panderers and the bandwagon riders, the true backward-thinking hillbillies, and think of someone that truly and honestly believes something.
On the abortion issue, some honest good folks truly believe that abortion is murder. They are not all backward thinking people or dumb snake-handling hillbillies.
Do you suppose that in their true belief any argument about cells or zygotes or women's choice would change their minds? Wouldn't they be hypocrites if it did?
So to reach an emotional level of understanding, step into those folk's shoes, think of something you truly and honestly believe; as seriously as murder is murder,
Would you change your mind because someone told you that you were wrong? Would you be a backward-thinking hypocrite if you didn't change your mind?
GAGDPR Deleted
The negative descriptors I used weren't your words Tess, they were ones I have seen used throughout this thread. Sorry if it sounded like I was attributing all of them to you.
"I think the people who insist that abortions are wrong on one hand and then use abortion to rid themselves of their problems ..."
Those would be the hypocrites spoken of, not the "honest good folks" I mentioned.
I agree with your point about indoctrination, and regarding abortion, I think that indoctrination is religion. However, do you think you can "apply thought, examination, analysis" to prove that indoctrination is wrong?
I think you can only prove it is wrong - in your opinion. If you were to compare your reasoning to that of a religious scientist, or mathematician, or Nobel prize winner, (of which there are true religious believers), would you consider your opinion more valid than theirs?
My only point is that I think ascribing the negative descriptors seen in this thread to all pro-life believers is as wrong as you think their belief is.
ps. I am always a bit surprised when I see the Dunning/Kruger effect injected as an explanation or validation. It can apply as validly to the user as it may to the object of its use.
GA"I am always a bit surprised when I see the Dunning/Kruger effect injected as an explanation or validation. It can apply as validly to the user as it may to the object of its use."
With this I can sympathize. I have attempted, several times, to start a discussion on the definition of "human" or "personhood" in these forums, relative to the question of abortion. It seems to me to be the key, core, matter of the whole debate...but no one is interested in such a discussion. The question is either already settled in other's mind OR is simply ignored in recognition that they might lose their stance on abortion as a result of forming an opinion on the topic. Dunning/Kruger, then, and with a vengeance.Uh oh, could even this be another example of that "vengeance?
It appears that what you describe is your attempt to use scientific explanation and definition to disprove a religious belief.
To this, I would say the truth of your definition doesn't matter. A pro-life belief would probably accept your 'clump of cells' or zygote definition as correct, yet to them, they still constitute a life.
Considering the long and ongoing, and unsettled, debate about when life begins, how can you prove they are wrong, beyond the proof of your opinion? If you can't disprove God, then how can you disprove their belief that your zygote is their life beginning?
You can pick at the edges using the scientific evaluation of when that clump of cells could constitute a complex living organism, but couldn't that be countered with the fact that even a single cell is a living thing?
I see this issue as simple as two sides each arguing that their belief is the right one, while neither can prove they are right.
What if your zygote argument was accepted, would it change anything about the abortion debate? Consider this recent Alabama "heartbeat" law. One of its criticisms is that your zygote will develop a heartbeat before that six-week period when it is most common for a woman to discover she is pregnant. Would you call it a life if it has a heartbeat?
If you would consider a heartbeat a life, then what you are really arguing is where to draw the line between murder and the evacuation of cells. Good luck with that.
GAGDPR Deleted
"Life" starts, in the egg, sometime during the fetal gestation period. Women are born with all the eggs they will ever have, and they are living cells; they are "life".
It starts, in the sperm, when it is produced, with males producing sperm most of their lives.
So if "life" is the determining factor, ALL abortion is murder. Of course, that opens the discussion to the "murder" of plants, insects, cows and any other life form.Now what the hell do we do? I agree with your comment.
GA
Hah! First, it's not about my belief, but a common definition based on facts and truth. Facts and truth that are not included in the scripture of any religion I'm aware of, but instead picked up by osmosis from a lifetime of religion, and required to substantiate the ban on abortions.
Second, it's not about life, it's about being a person, a human being. We throw away living tissue from our bodies all the time - when does that fetus become a person rather than a lump of growing flesh? And when answered, can you support that with anything but "Why, it's obvious!"?
So you're right - it's about when does abortion go from evacuation of unwanted living cells to murder. And it is not a topic that seems to invite discussion.I did get into "life," person," and references to "common definition," but only in addressing my overall point about possible honest sincerity of beliefs, not as an entry into the abortion/murder/zygote debate.
So, I won't get into that debate now either. But I would guess at why your point of crossing a line might not be a welcome discussion. Perhaps, for pro-life believers it is comparable to being 'a little bit pregnant.' You either are or you aren't. It either is or it isn't.
GA
GDPR Deleted
"Hard science would mean that you actually provide empirical evidence that the baby becomes a person when it is still a sperm or nothing more than a fetus."
Disagree. That point will be a defined event/time, not a "hard science" finding. One could even start, for instance, considering whether Koko (the gorilla that learned sign language) is a "person" (not to be confused with a "homo sapien" or "human". Or discussing whether a human infant, born without a forebrain and incapable of human thought process, is a "person". Was Terry Shiavo, without cognitive function, a "person" and entitled to all the care we can provide?
GDPR Deleted
Do you have an opinion on human sacrifice? Female genital mutilation? Dog fighting? If so, would you find that your opinion entitles you to forbid others to engage in the practice?
Society, and it's laws, is chock full of areas where an opinion is all that's necessary to deny others what they wish to do.GDPR Deleted
"I prefer to deal with secular ethics."
So do I. Big time. But that very often isn't possible, and abortion is one of those times.
"Using this method of decision making (with regard to morality), one takes the greater good for the greatest number over the longest period of time."
Disagree, for very often ethics also requires protection of the minority from the ravages of the majority. Excess taxation in order to provide charity is one of those times; it is very seldom ethical to steal - to play Robin Hood and simply take from someone because we feel their wealth should be spent contrary to what they wish - and forced charity is not one of those times. Ethics must always consider not only society as a whole, but individuals as well. IMHO, the individual often trumps the group - that's a major part of being free, and the converse is complete communism (which we know fails). Not always, certainly, but often enough that it is a major concern.
"It has very little to do with opinion."
Highly disagree, for ethics and morality is always about opinion. Not simple fact.
Is it ethical to remove a child from a parent because they spank their child? Is it ethical to force religious beliefs in order to preserve their eternal soul? And, of course, is it ethical to deny an abortion because it means murdering a child as opposed to a few months of discomfort? All answers, yes or no, depend on opinion, not fact. Even vaccination is opinion in that this study is true and factual and this one is not.GDPR Deleted
Damn, that's two in a row Tess.
I wouldn't say "fluxmoxed," (flumoxed,?), but I think I understand and agree with your closing statement.
GAA huge part of the issue for pro-lifers boils down to the fact that the human life in the womb doesn't get a chance to choose its destruction or not.
GDPR Deleted
I think you need to get real Tess. It sounds as if your problem is with God. That is way beyond what we can work through together, on a thread or two. I wish you the best, but it is time for me to move on from this discussion.
The choice of life or death is a bit different than the list mentioned.
There is a big difference in the list and the choice to live or die. It is utter arrogance to say that an unborn life must die because children do not get to make those choices. The human responsibility to protect the most innocent among us is dismissed by relating them. Of course, the egotistic acting to destroy people for those reasons has happened on both large and small scales throughout history, but that fact does not make it reasonable.
There may be some but I do not know of any abortion activists who say they themselves should have been aborted, and if they did it would be impossible to believe them because they obviously do not believe they should die now. I hope they would not make that choice, but the point is, they have not made that choice for themselves.
That science and technology continue to tell us more and more about life in the womb and about abortion (in spite of prior claims) is a lot to be thankful for, and I am thankful that victims of the lies about abortion can find hope and help in pro-life organizations reaching out to hurting hearts. Many who accept the help were afraid to seek it out because science and society has lied to them about the issues.
- RTalloniposted 5 years ago
0If the article amounts to saying that politically minded people of the right are now aiming to bring down Roe v Wade it couldn't be more wrong. There is nothing new about that aim. The effort to reverse it is a long-standing objective benefitting from what ever newer technology reveals about the life of the unborn and by educating with facts about the effects of abortion on a woman's body, emotions, and future, as well as education on options that most women will choose from if given the opportunity.
Today there are very few who would be duped into a clothes-hanger abortion because the consequences are well-known. What isn't so well known are the dangers lurking in abortion clinics. All have the opportunity to get help from a pro-life organization if they want it. The truth about the races affected by abortion and the historical motivations behind it are an eye-opening lesson for most. So much could be written to counter the lies abortion clinics tell girls and women (not to mention the truths they simply leave out), but no, there's nothing new to see here re the target.Sorry, but you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about and have been watching too many propaganda videos.
While people might not be duped into using a clothes hanger (though that assumption is just that, an assumption - particularly given the repression of sexual education in this country), the poor will be forced to have their abortions in back alleys, one way or another. How do we know this? Because that's what happened before abortion was legal.Totally agree. In response to RL's logical premise, there are women who are abusive to their kids because they didn't want them. Besides being abusive, they throw their kids out as early as possible because they can't stand their kids any longer. They are also neglectful to their children because they didn't want them. There are also children languishing in institutions & foster care systems because they were given away by their mothers. Yes, abortions should be kept legal. In fact, I strongly contend that abortion should be...……….ON DEMAND!
Do you favor or oppose the Alabama law, which is the subject of the thread? Do you think abortion should be illegal even in the case of rape and incest?
Oppose is such a mild word. I vehemently abhor such a "law". The gender traitor who wants to implement such a law, should been ostracized or worse. Abortion SHOULD NEVER be illegal at all. Abortion should be performed up until the time the fetus becomes viable outside the mother's womb. To reiterate, abortion is FAR MORE HUMANE than to have an unwanted child to be abandoned, abused, or...…..WORSE. Only a reactionary/retrogressive person would be against abortion.
I agree that abortion is acceptable up until the fetus becomes viable outside of the mother's womb.
That's actually a moderate view of abortion and not conservative or liberal.I am pro-choice and also agree with this statement. I think that in order to get a third trimester abortion, the circumstances must be extra-ordinary.
And we also need to consider that technology is changing how we view abortion in the sense that a fetus can be viable at an earlier and earlier date. However, we also need to debate if birthing a 20-week fetus is a good thing, given how expensive it is. Our health system and economy simply cannot support such things.You say you are pro-choice, but in a way, you also are partly anti-abortion because you believe in restrictions during the third trimester.
My real point is that you along with many other people -- except for the usual extremists on here -- are moderate about abortion.
Moderates are neither 100% pro-choice or 100% anti-abortion. They lie somewhere in-between.
Which is why the Alabama law is so stupid. Anyone who opposes abortion in the case of rape and incest is out of touch with reality and morality.
RT, there are deleterious effects of unwanted pregnancies. There is emotional, mental, psychological, & even psychic damage. There is also educational opportunities destroyed, hence later career opportunities. There is an incidence of permanent impoverishment for women & girls because of these lost educational/career opportunities.
There is also a high incidence of abuse because the mother have to care for a child that she didn't want in the first place. Unwanted children aren't nurtured in the way that wanted children are. They also tend to be neglected & throwaways. Children who are unwanted will be throwaway children i.e. being forced to leave home as early as possible. They are also scapegoated children. Mothers of unwanted children aren't going to be vested in such children.
Such children are also given away to people who really don't care about them. They are put in institutions where they languish or in foster homes where they are abused or catch hell in other ways. No, I don't buy the argument that abortions adversely affect women-WRONG! There are NO DELETERIOUS affects of abortions on women. It is FAR MORE HUMANE for a woman to have an abortion than to endure an unwanted pregnancy where the child is abused or given away to some institution or foster home where h/she languishes or suffers other types of hell. It is RESPONSIBLE to have the abortion while it is IRRESPONSIBLE to keep the unwanted child or give the child away. Smart, intelligent women have abortions because they know that they aren't ready for motherhood.
I think the main problem is both sides go too far in defense of either pro or anti abortion. In doing so, they embolden the other side to push the envelope further and further. It's difficult to look at pictures of the development of a fetus and support ideas of abortion by the time it is developed and responding to outside stimuli, and support the idea of abortion even after that date, except in the case of the endangered health of the mother.
I am pro choice only because a woman should be able to make decisions for her own life but, for the life of me, I cannot understand advocates of up until it can survive on its own outside the womb.
I would never fault a woman her decision but such stated stands are difficult to follow.So you also are a moderate on abortion.
I think many people are, but they don't get heard enough over the shouts of the far left and far right.The far ends abandon reason, in my opinion.
It seems those on the pro choice side don't know what is happening, so I'll try and explain.
Many people on the pro-life side don't like abortion, but now it is felt those on the pro-choice side have gone too far.
Remember that Roe v. Wade was sold the American public based on the lie of it only being used in cases on rape or incest.
The images of the Virginia governor saying a child who is born should be made comfortable until the mother and doctor decide if it should be killed. This is infanticide. There is no other rational way to explain it.
The New York legislature clapping and cheering clapping when they took all restrictions off of abortion, even it a child was in its third trimester, was horrifying.
These images and attitude enraged those on the pro-life side. I've never seen this level of quiet resolve in the pro-life movement. A powder keg of determination has been ignited and it is not going to stop.
The Pennsylvania state legislator who harassed a woman praying outside an abortion clinic simply added fuel to the fire.
So, it doesn't matter if you like the pro-life attitude, disagree with it, hate it or will fight against it. This is reality of the situation.
Nothing anyone can say will change my mind. I won't try to change your mind if you are pro-choice.
Expect many more state laws to restrict abortion and laws being passed to intentionally challenge Roe v. Wade in the court system.And, if these laws are not overturned, expect a mass exodus of educated women to other nations. I already know young ladies, with the means, and ability to do so, who say they will assuredly go elsewhere if abortion is completely banned. With decisions like this, America will run itself into being a "developing" as the pockets of relative affluence dwindle. This is much more serious than just someone from the other party getting President.
What would you do if women simply left one state that prohibited abortion in favor of travel to one where it is legal? Pregressive states would never allow an imposition as presented by the retrograde ones. Would we create a new "Underground Railroad"? Would the right wing states restrain women from leaving the state if their intent is to get an abortion elsewhere? How far does it go?
Hi Cred, I don't see this so much as a "gunning" for an overturn of Roe v. Wade, but rather as a correction of a huge mistake which was allowed to happen decades ago.
Did you know that 'Roe' never had an abortion? She was a pawn, she was USED by activists.....that should really bother women!!!
Norma McCorvey, (Roe) wrote about all of this; how she was used and how she was caught up in the madness.
The liberal, activist men in long black robes, went from Judges to Jurors and Executioners...all in one day, all in one sweep!
Such power they held that day, they must have truly felt like Gods!
The day I cried wasn't the day Alabama did what they did, it was the day men and women in New York, stood up and applauded for babies not to have to be saved, after botched abortions. They didn't stop there, buildings were lit up to celebrate....finishing off babies!
I cried the day the Virginia Governor described making a survivor of an abortion "comfortable", while the decision, do they finish the job or allow the baby to live, would be made.
In all honesty, the crying part came, but only after the shock, followed by a sick feeling, ending with a shuddering down my spine, subsided.Does that mean you are for or against the Alabama law? Do you favor or oppose abortions in cases of rape and incest?
I am opposed to abortion. In very rare cases of rape and incest, leading to a pregnancy, a lot of women are choosing to keep their baby and some choose to have the baby and give them up for adoption. If there is a possibility of a pregnancy, then that is addressed the day the rape is reported, correct, well before six weeks/eight weeks?
I have some questions for you promisem. Did you have a reaction to New York Representatives giving a standing ovation to ending the life of an infant that has beaten the odds and survived an attempted abortion?
Did you have any reaction to Gov. Northam's comments? Did him saying, "make the baby comfortable", make the act of possibly finishing off the little survivor, less crude? Did he stress, "making the baby comfortable" enough or could he have stressed it more?
Reproduction means to produce. Isn't a baby already produced? Already a finished product? Why do pro-abortionists, call abortion a reproductive right?I didn't see an answer to either one of my questions.
I know nothing about your claims regarding New York or Northam. I can only say I support Virginia's law which prohibits third-trimester abortions except in the most extreme circumstances.
A first-trimester fetus is not a "finished product".Horsepoop.
You didn't say if you support or oppose the Alabama law. You didn't say if you support or oppose abotions in case of rape or incest.
Do you or don't you?
I responded to your question that I know nothing about your New York and Northam claims. But I explained my position about third-trimester abortions, which met you halfway.
I also responded to your final paragraph using your own quote.
I asked you two non partisan questions that didn't take sides. There is no need for you to start an argument.So, because I do not agree with you on this, I am starting an argument?
I see how it is, how it always is!
I am opposed to abortion, therefore, I support the Alabama law. I explained the options that victims of incest or rape have. They may choose to keep the baby, they may choose to put the baby up for adoption or they may choose to put an end to the possibility of a pregnancy, the day they go in to report the rape. Which I would think, would hope, would be long before they are 6 to 8 weeks pregnant.
A woman is considered pregnant, long before the third trimester. I was never told that I wasn't officially pregnant until my third trimester. Who told you such a thing?
It's very odd that you know nothing about the standing ovation or the lighting up of buildings in New York over the decision to end a life that survives an abortion. It is also odd that you are not aware of Gov. Northam's remarks, but I guess if you aren't aware, you aren't aware.Paragraph #1: Disagree with what? I simply asked you two questions.
Paragraph #2: At least you now say you support the Alabama law, which means you also oppose abortion in case of rape or incest. That's all you needed to say the first time.
Paragraph #3: I have no idea what you are talking about. I simply said before that I support the Virginia law that prohibits third trimester abortions.
Paragraph #4: I don't go to right-wing blogs or anti-abortion websites, so I'm not aware of any politicians making comments that upset anti-abortion people.I don’t go to right wing blogs or anti-abortion sites either, so we have that in common.
Which is one of the reasons this debate will never end. Those "right wing blogs" don't concern themselves with the rights of women; only the right of children (that have done no wrong) to live. While the "left wing blogs" aren't concerned with any right to live, only the rights of the mother.
As long as neither side will discuss what matters to the other we will fight the issue until eternity.Wilderness,
You have made a great point. One must get all sides to best educate themselves...you can't learn anything if you only research into areas that only agree with your views.
It is like attempting to learn to ride a bike after you have already learned to ride a bike..
Why are YOU opposed to abortion? It is a normal medical procedure, no more no less. Do you want women & girls to endure an unwanted pregnancy? Do you feel that women & girls should curtail & ruin their lives, being reduced to living in poverty because they have lost educational & socioeconomic opportunities? Do you want women & girls to have unwanted children that they WILL NEVER LOVE? That is the height of being inhumane. All children should be wanted & loved. I will always fight for abortion rights because women & girls should have THE ULTIMATE control over their reproductive destiny. No girl or woman should ever be a slave to her reproduction.
This fighting against abortion is a slippery slope. First, there is a curtailing of abortion. Next comes birth control. Right minded people, it is TIME to fight these draconian abortion laws. I, as a woman, REFUSE to return to the Dark Ages where women had to sneak to get illegal abortions & when birth control was difficult to obtain. Hell to the no!GDPR Deleted
I have an aunt who got pregnant as a teenager. She was smart however she had to curtail all her ambitions to care for a child that she wasn't prepared for. She was oftentimes frustrated & took out the frustration on her child. Because of this, I am staunchly for abortion. Women & girls should use their potentials to be the best people. Why should their futures be curtailed because they made a mistake? No woman or girl shouldn't have a forced pregnancy- the thought of this is absolutely medieval & misogynic in its premise. Thankfully, my state of New York isn't like that. Only Alabama, Mississippi, & other retrogressive states want to return to the days when women were in specified roles which included being barefoot & pregnant! The Deep South has ISSUES! In fact, the South in general has issues w/modernity! I should know-my maternal relatives are from the South-wheeeeeew is all I have to say.
GDPR Deleted
It was an accident. I have always believed in women's reproductive freedom. Women shouldn't be slaves to reproduction. As Gloria Steinem aptly stated, a woman's reproductive system isn't her destiny. Women & girls should have be saddled w/children they don't want or can ill afford to care for. Women & girls who have unwanted children suffer emotionally, psychologically, & even psychically.
Of course, pro-life people are opposed to abortion because of their so called moral superiority so to speak. They feel that sex should be linked to procreation. Many pro-lifers are traditional, fundamentalist, &/or even fanatical religionists who feel that sex should always be aligned w/procreation. Many pro-lifers are even anti-birth control. The position of the pro-lifer is that if one has sex, expect to be pregnant & have the child. They also believe that one should have as many children as possible. They also believe in sexual abstinence before marriage.
The idea of so-called nontraditional sex, particularly for women & girls is an anathema for many pro-lifers, reactionaries, & retrogressives, not to mention traditionalists, fundamentalists, & fanatics. They have the Madonna/wanton complex. To them, there are only TWO kinds of women & girls- the so-called pure & the so-called slut. To them, any woman or girl who is sexually active is a so-called slut.GDPR Deleted
Yes, there are some people who think this way. It is quite unnerving that in this day & age that there are some retrogressive people. These are the type of people who totally eschew any type of contraception & have large to very large families. It is beyond bizarre- it is downright atavistic thinking. Many fundamentalist & extra fanatical religionists believe this & act accordingly, think of the Duggars & other megafamilies. Michelle Duggar equated abortion to a holocaust. Yes, there are still people who have a medieval mindset.
Indeed, it is rather ironic to say abortion clinics are safe places. The response of NY seemed to create the sound of low thunder across the nation.
Well said. Indeed, to say abortion clinics are safe for mother or baby is rather ironic. Thank you for your efforts to help oppose what they promote, the lies they tell mothers, the damage they do. It seemed that the reaction of NY to the issue created a low sound of thunder across the nation.
Pro-life proponents warned Roe-v-Wade would lead to this sort of thing, but as so often is the case re concerning issues, they were and still are mocked for the warnings. Pro-lifers have science and technology on their side today, disproving old theories about babies in the womb. Mothers who were lied to about abortions continue to wake up to the fact that not only was their child murdered, they were lied to and used when they were young and vulnerable.
Support for organizations who offer hope and help to those considering abortion and who have suffered one is growing. Not everyone can be directly involved but all can support their work in some way. Just being willing to encourage a woman to them go learn what help is available is huge.Greetings AB
I think that Roe Vs Wade is a compromise between those who wanted abortion on demand and those that wanted to restrict abortion from the point of conception.
I am pro-choice, not pro abortion. How do you make a woman bring a child to term that she does not want?
If abortion can be avoided as an option, OK. But coercion of woman regarding their choices as enshrined in established Constutional law won't go down well in much of the country.
You simply not going to get acceptance of the conservatives point of view on this thing over so many diverse opinions.
I don't think the pro-choice movement realizes the storm that is coming their way.
Comments by the Virginia governor about keeping a born child comfortable while a physician and mother decide if they want to kill it, and the celebration by the New York state legislature eliminating all abortion restrictions is often played before pro-life meetings.
The motivation is at a level I've never seen before. I've been pro-life for decades. Individuals who would have never given politics a second thought are now raising money for pro-life organizations and engaging in protests.
It is only going to get stronger and spread wider. I don't think the pro-choice movement has any way to stop it.
“The near-total ban on abortions signed into law in Alabama on Wednesday is the most restrictive abortion legislation in the country, but the state is not alone in trying to put limits on the procedure.”
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/politics … index.htmlHi Mike, I was in junior high school (middle school) when Roe v. Wade was decided and I was as opposed to abortion then, as I am today. Since that horrible day, I've been speaking against it, marching against it, writing against it. I've been trying to talk friends and family out of it and trying to talk friends and family out of suicide, when they've gone through with it and have so much regret!
Today.....I am shocked as to what human beings are capable of justifying.I would assume that you also believe that every single woman who has ever had an abortion and any doctor who has performed one is a murderer?
If so, how should we deal with them and how should we deal with those that provide abortions or get abortions in a world where abortion is illegal?
Shouldn't every one of those people be put in jail or given the death penalty for committing a murder?Is abortion murder or not? If it's murder, then what are the penalties for it? In Alabama, the doctor goes to jail now.
The activist judges and the pro-abortion movement back then, in 1973, didn’t care to know, what this would do to women, long term. It wasn’t studied or thought through, it was an agenda and it was pushed through. An agenda meant more to them, than a woman’s life and well-being. It certainly meant more to them than the rights of the unborn.
So, no, I don’t blame nor do I pass judgement on girls/women who were told, back then, that they were carrying nothing more than a clump of cells.
The actions of those activists back then, has led to the justification of any and all abortions today.GDPR Deleted
Thank you Tess. Women & girls have a right to have an abortion if they want to. No woman or girl should have to endure an unwanted pregnancy. That is beyond barbaric. This is the 21st century, not medieval times when religion ruled. Civilized societies have accessible abortion.
I suggest abortion is murder if a woman aborts the day before she is due.
Yes, I know that's an extreme example, but I say it to make a point. A viable fetus in the final three months of pregnancy, especially in the final month, is too close to being fully human.
That said, I agree with you that it is not murder before viability.
Hello AB,
I don't know what was more horrifying. The New York legislature celebrating so much after all restrictions on abortion were taken away or the Virginia governor talking about keeping a baby born alive being kept comfortable while the mother and physician decided whether to kill the baby. There is also Christine Quinn saying when a woman is pregnant, it is not a human being inside her.
I also believe Planned Parenthood videos talking about selling aborted baby parts is also quite horrifying.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin … ely-edited
I find it interesting how the people on the left put so much faith in science, and science proves a pregnant woman has a human being inside her.
The immediate goal would never be to overturn Roe v. Wade. Initially, it would be to let each state determine its own laws concerning abortion. Remove the federal government from the equation.
That is the first step.
Put me down as a person who respects life.
I've been banned before because I got too emotional on this issue, so I'll stop here.
Missouri just banned abortion after 8 weeks. One step at a time.I’ve yet to be banned Mike, I’m just made an example of, I suppose, with this pathetic score I carry around HP like a ball and chain!
I’m with you, I respect life and with that, I too, will stop here.
GDPR Deleted
I find it humorous someone from South Africa lecturing anyone from any country about living in a first world civilized society.
I think its fair to say South Africa has a huge number of its own ethical problems.
Lets just leave it at that.I find it humorous that American right wing zealots who are obsessed with guns and war can insult someone from another country about ethics and right to life.
Wrong. It's not the job of the government to provide free stuff for people. Never has been. This is one of the most basic founding principles of our country.
GDPR Deleted
"Please do define 'free stuff' and also tell me where, in the founding principles' it mentions people not being given 'free stuff.'
Anything received without paying for it. Those "founding principles" not only do not mention government giving away free stuff, they do not mention where government will get it to give away.
You're right - there is considerable disagreement in the purpose of taxes. Some view it as a method of forcing others to pay for what they want but don't want to pay for; some view it as maintaining the nation. The infrastructure (roads, dams, etc.) and the protection of the nation. Not for the exclusive use of individuals that want more than they can afford.GDPR Deleted
You're right; FREE stuff isn't Free at all. Someone has to pay for it, just not the individual that gets it. And every country that has traveled far down that road has failed, for human nature is to want what you produce, not have it taken away to give to someone else.
It seems odd that Nic Hanuer, along with "quite a few other billionaires", don't give away their billions. After all, it is far better to be alive and only a millionaire than to be lynched. But they don't, do they? It is all hot air without substance...just talk without action.
Yes - America has a choice. Either follow other countries into socialism that has failed everywhere it has been tried or to remain with free people; people that will work for what they want and will grow a stronger country rather than simply line up at the trough for their daily allotment of "FREE things" that someone else worked to produce.GDPR Deleted
"The EU has a far bigger economy than the US".
Sure it does. "While the two have roughly the same GDP, around €18.9 trillion for the EU and €18.3 trillion for the U.S. at the end of 2015, the EU has a larger population, 507 million citizens versus 319 million"
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/10/ … ng-the-us/
You might want to research before making claims that aren't true.
"This idea that other people have to pay for the free stuff of other people is sick."
And where do YOU think it comes from? God provided "manna" from heaven? Or does someone else earn it and then have it taken away?
"The 'products' that I have mentioned are NOT 'free stuff.' "
That's what I said. Someone earned it; they paid a price to have it. They just don't get to keep it, as it is removed from the possession of those that paid for it and given to those that did not. That doesn't make it FREE, though - it just means that the end recipient did not earn it.
"As I pointed out a few posts prior to this, the USA is closer to a third world country than a first world country, and it is sinking fast."
You may have made the statement, just as you did that the EU has a "far bigger economy" than the US, but that doesn't make it true. Time will tell whether it works better to reward people for what they do or to take it away from them. Which will produce the largest rise in standard of living? I know where my opinion lies; I assume you believe that if you take away what people work to build it will encourage them to work harder.GDPR Deleted
"Well, yes, exactly. The EU has a larger population than the US. So when the US claims to be the biggest eonomy, isn't that a bit hypocritical? "
Still didn't read? The EU has a very slightly higher GDP, but a population that is half again that of the US. So the per capita GDP is far higher in the US, with total GDP the same. Contrary to your claim that the EU has a far larger economy.l
"You might also consider the sentence "
When it comes to measures of wellbeing – and even on many straight economic growth measures — the European Union leads the way."
No argument...as long as one defines "well being" in a manner that makes it true. If, instead, one considers the effect of turning adults into children that cannot care for themselves, or that govt. is destroying incentive to either work OR care for yourself, then that "well being" isn't much any more. Instead, the much vaunted socialistic policies are destroying humanity.
"All billionaires and those who earn $1 million or more should pay 90% of their income tax."
I understand that. You want what they've built, but without the effort to doing it yourself. Greed is a very common aspect of socialism - "You have more than me, so give me what you have".
"I don't believe the fable about hard work."
*shrug* That you don't believe hard work can produce wealth doesn't mean much...except that it may be understandable when coupled with the belief that the wealthy must give up what they've built. Given that, it seems self evident; work hard, earn a bundle, and the socialists will take it away to provide "FREE stuff" for someone else.
Hello Tess, Both of your links were very thought-provoking. Thanks.
It was interesting to note the similarities of the billionaire's thoughts and the Rome historian's -relative to the possible, (probable?), social consequences of such degrees of wealth inequality.
The point is probably good for a thread topic of its own.
GA
So right now more than half of US citizens are on some form of welfare or disability program. The military gets up to 50% disability for sleep apnea which has been proven to be a symptom of nothing more than being fat. The same goes for a multitude of other illnesses. Things brought on by drug use, and smoking. The government is incapable of discerning who the real cases are versus the genuine cases. And everyone is taking advantage of whatever program they can to milk as much money as possible from the system.
This is a recent phenomenon in our nation, and it starts with irresponsible governmental spending programs. You can't deny this, there is a twenty trillion dollar debt that proves it. Any private company that were this far in debt would go bankrupt and all the CEO's would be thrown in jail. But politicians get to do it because they have the power to regulate commerce, and abuse the general welfare clause in our constitution.
The medical field needs to be privatized, it would be a thousand times better. If you want socialized medicine try living in a country that has it, like Cuba or Venezuela.
I find it odd that the same people that want the government out of their wombs are the same people who want that same government to pay for everything.
Feminists feel they don't have to be responsible for keeping a child, but will hold a man responsible to pay for a child that he does not want to keep. This is purely about control and has nothing to do with the rights of children. And science has proven time and again that they are in fact children that are growing inside their bodies.Onusonus, America has become an entitled society. People have to learn responsibility & accountability. They have to learn to provide for themselves & their families. They also must learn that the government shouldn't assume a parental role. The purpose of the government is to implement FAIR, JUST, & HUMANE laws for its citizens, no more no less. Yes, I believe that women should have abortion right but I believe in sexual responsibility.
I am with you that there is too much welfare & social entitlements in present American society. As a result of too many social programs, there are people who believe that the government should support them, give them housing, food, etc. That is beyond ridiculous. I am of the school that one should do for self. I am of the school that one can become whatever h/she through strategizing, smart work, & sacrificing. There are people who have transcended their original/familial social class. People would rather make excuses than to access their lives & take responsibility!GDPR Deleted
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. But if you have no viable response then it's always best to resort to insults.
Nice comeback...GDPR Deleted
No empirical evidence for which? The disability rate, or the abject failure of every country that has implemented socialized medicine? Or are you referring to the women who want the government out of their uterus' yet insist on having the government pay for everything.
GDPR Deleted
Since they have implemented socialized healthcare France has accumulated a debt equivalent to 98.4% of their GDP. That is a big failure, and it's only a matter of time before they go the way of Greece and Venezuela. In other words, completely broke, and begging the EU for more money.
GDPR Deleted
Are you kidding? France's debt raised by 50% since they implemented socialized medicine and it keeps going up. And you want the US to do the same thing? That will add another 10 trillion dollars annually to the debt on top of all the other ludicrous spending programs that Democrats and Republicans are shoving down the people's throats.
Your fantasies of creating a Utopian society is destroying anybody's hope for a decent retirement, this will kill the middle class.GDPR Deleted
You didn't prove it to me, I already knew it. My point is you want to double it. Your math doesn't seem to be on par today.
All you Democrats and Republicans want to do is find ways to tell people how to spend their money as if you know what every individual needs for themselves.
And your knowledge, experience, and education is nothing more than an arrogant and elitist mentality. The simplest person in the country knows better what to do with their own money than any elitist in Washington ever will.GDPR Deleted
South Africa is now using drugs that Americans have paid to research and develop, rather than finding their own, because government has made it impossible for industry to do so.
And you think this is reasonable and that America should do the same. Where will you find the drugs then?This country built the richest middle class in history based on the premise of motivation by self interest. No form of innovation has ever came by government edict.
The fact that you want pharmaceutical companies to be sued for making too much profit is laughable. Making profits is the very thing that has caused us to find cures for nearly every disease out there.
If socialized healthcare is so great why does the government have to put a gun to our heads and force everyone to pay for it under threat of imprisonment?
It's amazing that people who think we can not pay for doctors, hospitals, and medicine somehow think we can pay for doctors, hospitals, medicine, and a government bureaucracy to administer it.
You may be among the educated elite, Mrs. Dunning Kruger, but I have years of experience in government work, and I can guarantee you that when government takes control of any good or service it will undoubtedly become more expensive and the quality will drop exponentially."It's amazing that people who think we can not pay for doctors, hospitals, and medicine somehow think we can pay for doctors, hospitals, medicine, and a government bureaucracy to administer it."
Not at all, for that "we" that can pay for it is actually "somebody else". That IS the point, after all - "we" don't want, or can't, pay for what we want so force someone else to buy it FOR us.GDPR Deleted
Friedman debunked that sentiment a long time ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgyQsIGLt_w
Credence, the ultraconservatives, reactionaries, retrogressives, fundamentalists, & fanatics want women in an inferior role. They feel that women have progressed too far. They feel that women are usurping their male authority so they want women where they can control them. Yes, there are women who are against women's sexual & reproductive choice- they are called gender traitors.
The subject of female sexuality is quite a hotbed topic. Since patriarchal religionist deemed that the full & bold assertion of female sexuality is evil because the mythical Eve caused Adam's downfall. They want to punish women for expressing their sexuality. Religionists deem female sexuality to be quite problematic in one way or another. They are fearful of women's sexual superiority so they implemented ways to deem women's sexuality as inferior because of that fear.
I am going off tangent here. This religious & male misogyny was the underlying reason for the persecution of women in the Middle Ages. Women who were independent & refuse to adhere to the strict dictates of the time were deem as witches, heretics, &/or worse. They were eventually persecuted which made other women get into line, submitting to male authority whether it was the church, society, & husbands/other male relatives. The prohibition of contraception by male religionist attested to the power that women's sexuality had. It was believed that if women were denied birth control, they wouldn't be equal to men in relationships. So this animus against abortion & other types of reproductive freedoms stem from an inherent fear of female sexuality.Conservatives and rightwingers are all about "control". If they cant revert Throughly Modern Millie to the whalebone corset in one way, theywill resort to another way....
There is NOTHiNG virtuous about conservative or the rightwing agenda at any level.
If one scratches the surface, people who are pro-life are against ANY TYPE of reproductive freedoms. There are pro-life people who are against any type of birth control except for so-called natural birth control. These people somehow contend that any type of reproductive choice is "against natural law"-"against God". To be against abortion is a slippery slope- it will soon led to trying to outlaw contraception.
Credence, the ultraconservatives, fundamentalists, fanatics, reactionaries, & retrogressives & other atavistic people is using the abortion issue as a talking point & a control issue. In their "minds", they want to appear "morally just". Some of these same people had wives, daughters, lovers, & yes mistresses who had abortion w/o an issue on their parts. THEY even paid for the abortions themselves in order to save face. There is a strong hypocrisy by ultraconservatives, fundamentalists, fanatics, reactionaries, & retrogressives regarding the issue of sex, particularly female sexuality.
An example of this is the Roman Catholic Church which is known for its strong anti-sexual stance. It is also a highly misogynic church which is against any type of female sexual freedom. However, this church has a history of sexual abuse by the clergy. The Roman Catholic Church publicly presents a face of strong sexual chastity & wholesome sexual expression but privately they commit the worst sexual degeneracy which is only recently becoming public. Remember Credence, what is in THE DARK...……...is coming TO THE LIGHT. It isn't only the Roman Catholic Church but other fundamentalist churches as well. Any institution or person that is strong anti-sexual & misogynic has SKELETONS in the closet, NEED I SAY MORE.Credence, the ultraconservatives, fundamentalists, reactionaries, retrogressives, & fanatics do want ABORTION CONTROL. In fact, they want CONTROL by eliminating abortion altogether. There is nothing commonsense about. It is DRACONIAN if you ask me.
Interesting, the turn this discussion has taken!
Tess, hard work is not a fable to most Americans, it is a way of life and it doesn't end there, common sense and self control are a big part of the equation. Any individual can squander their fortune, whether large or small....whether self made or inherited. Common sense and self control go a long way in seeing us through, all aspects of life. Perhaps if more of both were practiced/utilized, we'd not have so much disagreement and division on multiple subjects.Ab, although I am a staunchly pro-choice Liberal, I maintain that people have to be accountable & responsible for their actions. I also believe in self-sufficiency & of course self-control. American society is the way it is presently because of lack of self-control. My motto is THINK OF THE RAMIFICATIONS before you act. There is such a thing as DELAYED gratification & mature action. I believe not in hard work but smart work. One has to strategize & sacrifice if one wants to progress educationally & socioeconomically. There is nothing wrong w/wealth. I believe in wealth.
I furthermore believe that the government is here to implement & instill FAIR & HUMANE laws. However, I don't believe that the government should consistently implement social & health programs. I feel that it is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL to provide for himself/herself & his/her family. The government isn't nor shouldn't be the parent. There is NOTHING WRONG in EARNING one's way.Gm, although I am a staunchly pro-life Conservative (with Libertarian tendencies) I'd say we have more in common than our last name.
Also, not sure if it was you or Tess, but at some point, “staunchly pro-life” was described as anti-birth control/anti-sex life/anti-woman.....let’s be clear, that’s not me!
When I describe myself as staunchly pro-life, that means that I do not believe that babies deserve a death sentence. I do not believe that judgement should be placed on them, by actions which were/are, beyond their control.
Going back and reading some of the comments missed......
another description of a pro-lifer is that they only care about the baby and not the woman.
Again, not true!
My articles on abortion aren’t placing blame on women.....far from it! Progressive activists used a particular woman, Norma McCorvey and didn’t stop there, they’ve continued to use women as guinea pigs, not knowing and not caring what the long term effects would be on them, as a result of abortion.
I’ve talked to many women over the years. I’ve talked them out of suicide, (although a good friend, attempted twice that I know of and came very close the second time) I’ve loved them through their struggles, never thinking any less of them, always being their friend, no matter what!
On the other hand, there are those going through life, lashing out, as the saying goes, 'hurting people hurt people' and that is so true, they are continually lashing out at people in their lives that love them and want the best for them, but they push those people away.
There are no happy endings when it comes to abortion.GDPR Deleted
Technology today refutes previous theoretical myths re children in the womb and research is disproving lies people have been told about abortion. Fetal origins research has led to focusing on when and what babies learn before they are born because science has gone way beyond whether they do. An honest look at the issues can be heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stngBN4hp14
Because the ever evolving entity called modern science did not understand this information it arrogantly declared that in the womb babies were bits of what amounted to nothing. Though that made no sense, people accepted it because they wanted to do so. It fit their want list in life. But now science itself is proving itself wrong. Mothers who learn this truth too late and have been victims along with their children have hope and help. A beginning for them is found in right to life groups.
Though one's integrity based values will affect consideration of the complex issues, a thoughtful read can be found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4140221/
A willingness to look past our personal life wants is the only way to honestly evaluate the information we have available to us today. It is an amazing thought to consider what we will learn in the future about life in the womb.You have made a very powerful argument. I'm glad you posted it.
GDPR Deleted
Tess,this was in response to the lady who said, "no regrets about two abortions, had I chosen to have the children, I would never have had the life I had."
Just seemed the fitting response.GDPR Deleted
You used the words, “had I chosen to have the children”, in your example, I didn’t use those words, you did.
While I agree with your opinion that a 1st trimester fetus is not a "baby" many do not. But until a discussion and agreement on what a "baby" is there can be no end to the fight over abortion.
Does it not behoove us all to discuss and define that point, based on reason rather than belief or the words of the local shaman?Science is the popular method of reasoning, but it continues to prove itself to be ever-evolving, disproving its own claims about abortion (and other issues) as time goes by. That people ignore this and continue to allow science to present theory as fact is an important part of the discussion.
Very few scientific theories have been proven wrong, though most have been proven wrong if just the right circumstances/environment are used rather than that which was used to prove it in the first place. Water boils at 100 degrees C, for instance...unless you are at an altitude higher than sea level, whereupon it is less...unless it is a high pressure day, whereupon it could be the same or even more...unless the water is contaminated with something, whereupon it could be higher yet...and so on and so on.
Keep in mind that a true scientific "theory" has been rigorously tested many times by many people; it is not the hypothesis that many people consider to be a "theory".Consider the anticipatory beginnings, history, and now the outcomes of scientist's claims re antibiotics, the falsified global warming stats and now the evolving predictions based on "true scientific theory" that continue to be proven bogus, as well as what science taught about babies in the womb before science began proving what we now know as fact. Scientific literacy is an extremely interesting study. Even those promoting pseudoscience use the concepts. Samples of it abound, partly because, by and large, very narrow selections are made when theory on data is tested.
That's my point. None of these things have been exhaustively tested. At best we see a peer review, using the exact same computer models that may or may not be flawed. They cannot be considered a "scientific theory" regardless of what media and politicians may call them.
Using the boiling point of water as an example of a test that would be difficult to present with flaws has its uses, but it is important to realize that it is scientists who are using narrowly chosen samples to study theory on data.
This fairly straightforward yet very interesting article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5043322/
is just one giving a good explanation of how reliability is affected by incentives (rewards for publishing and for favorable results), institutional competition, prejudice/self interest, an amazing lack of cooperation and communication between labs, variances in methodology and more, creating expansive conflict of interest issues across the board within scientific communities. Media reports about conclusions really does result in fake news.
Take prehistoric claims, as an example. The old joke is that we cannot know what happened prehistorically since it is "pre" history. In the scientific community, though, we learn from the study of data gathered at "prehistoric" sites. The problem is that much of the history to explain what is at the sites is dismissed by modern science. The article puts it a different way, stating how limited data prevents true investigation. It also presented important questions and awareness raising conclusions.
I agree with the article's assertion that many scientists are aware of the problems and that some grant/hiring committee members try to work against the rushing tide of diminishing researcher merit. That acknowledgement, however, only reflects the problems we face in trusting science.
It would foolish not to be thankful for honest scientific advances, but when it comes to abortion I rejoice that technological advances give people an increasingly truer picture of human life in the womb and what abortion really is like. I'm also thankful to know there is hope and help for victims through right-to-life organizations.
"Keep in mind that a true scientific "theory" has been rigorously tested many times by many people; it is not the hypothesis that many people consider to be a "theory"."
Ding ding ding...I think this is what too many people don't understand. Also, one study does not make science. Reporters give science a bad name when they release the results of a study with aka "Eggs Each Morning Increases Longevity" Than next week we see "Eggs are linked to premature deaths."
I think many in the general public see this as science contradicting itself, when it's simply two studies--which are often impossible to truly understand without delving into the actual research as opposed to just the news article. Science is a body of evidence and a real accepted theory is damn near fact...with the caveat that science is always open to new evidence that COULD lead us elsewhere.
I just think this is a very important point that needs highlighting.And why this simple fact which take less than a minute to explain is not taught in every secondary school around the world, beats me.
I think it is taught Brandon, or at least it was in the pre-electricity days when I walked through two miles of deep snow, uphill both ways, to get to school.
I think the real issue is a sometimes laziness and imprecise language usage, and, of course, purposeful misstatement to try to support a position.
GADammit Gus, I'll have to agree with you on this. Only two miles?
These facts definitely contribute, but I really doubt it's taught much.
Hello. I also don't think these specific points are taught enough. I have a Presidential Scholar --yes, bragging--graduating senior and I asked her about this. She stated that, in totality, kids should be learning these points, but they are never really offered up like this in one clear lesson.
I also think that the information so readily available nowadays, makes the learning necessities of scientific literacy a bit different from what could have been taught back in the pre-electricity days of GA and Randy.
GDPR Deleted
But they ARE entitled to make that decision, at least given the facts as they have determined them to be.
You would stop a neighbor from executing their small child, wouldn't you? Most of us would take steps to stop animal abuse, let alone the killing of children. And that's exactly what they see abortion as; the murder of children that cannot defend themselves. They are doing just what you and I would do were we to witness infanticide.
Which is why I keep harping on "What is a person", but no one wants to comment. Either pro life OR pro choice - no one wants to examine that aspect, yet it is the very root of the entire issue."A person's a person no matter how small," with love, Dr. Seuss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eC08uGwWiw
Choosing abortion is about taking the choice to live away from the most vulnerable among us. Just as predicted by the earliest pro-life groups at the time of Roe v. Wade it has directly resulted in infanticide and now open support for it in some corners. While that is not the only thing that has resulted in infanticide, the topic here is abortion.Only if you assume that a fetus is a person. If, instead, you recognize that you cannot define the point of "personhood" for everyone, abortion has nothing to do with murder.
States have made that decision, giving various points, but the pro-lifers have declared that they, and only they, can decide when it occurs. Without having any reason at all behind their claim.Re personhood, "A person's a person no matter how small," with love, Dr. Seuss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eC08uGwWiw
Choosing abortion is about taking the choice to live away from the most vulnerable among us. Just as predicted by the earliest pro-life groups at the time of Roe v. Wade it has directly resulted in infanticide and now open support for it in some corners. While that is not the only thing that has resulted in infanticide, the topic here is abortion.
If the question of personhood is at the root of the issue yet you can't define personhood isn't it reasonable to err on the side of caution and protect life at it's very core? Disagreeing with choosing to err on the side of caution is anyone's freedom, but acting on the choice is ending life.Life begins at independent viability. A cell formation isn't a person my dear. Pro-lifers aren't about to decide what is best for the majority of us who are pro-choice. We have fought too long to make abortion safe, accessible, &....LEGAL. We aren't about to let pro-lifers take us back to the 1950s when abortion was illegal- NO WAY IN HELL! Pro-lifers have IT WRONG. There are FAR LESS of you than it is US. WE WILL WIN....
No, it is not reasonable. I cannot define it, but I CAN firmly state that a zygote (fertilized egg) is not a person. Yet removing one is an abortion.
I will also absolutely state that a collection of 100 cells is not a person. Nor is the attachment to the womb what makes a person, or the presence of a moving muscle, including the heart. Yet all of these have been used as proof of "personhood", apparently simply so that an abortion can be denied.
I'm willing to go out on a limb and state that a fetus in the process of being born IS a person. Somewhere between a single cell and that fully developed infant something happens, but it is unreasonable to say that "erring on the side of caution" includes things that are most definitely before that event. IMO, of course.
I will add that RvsW did not "result in infanticide". Certainly babies have been killed...but not as a result of that decision. We have seen fully formed, birthed babies left in dumpsters or killed in other ways, and any actual child taken in an abortion was not the result of the SCOTUS decision.
(The really fascinating part is that the product of rape is not a person, while another one, at exactly the same development, is)Wilderness, you and I strongly disagree on a wide range of topics. But I have to say that your post has great logic and is one of my favorite ones from you in the many years we have butted heads.
Just don't think me weak for praising you. I'm sure we'll find plenty of other issues to battle over.
- Yes, there will be other issues. Glad to hear someone agree, though.
The original post has strayed to many other areas of increased governmental control, pro and against. But much of the data given is erroneous, particularly the liberal "facts" about the economy. Far from diving to third world status, the United States has a superior economy for all. There are so many economic issues on which the United States stands above most, if not all, that the counterargument is silly.
Anyone who forges through the commentary here should get his brain straight and read https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in … s/Economy.
For starters, U.S. GDP per capita is 56% more than the European Union.
I am absolutely gobsmacked!! And pudding-whacked!GDPR Deleted
Your list of socialistic goals for a first world country makes a fine definition...if you like socialism. If you prefer individual responsibility and personal freedom, not so much, and your concept of how to make that definition says the US is the only "first world country" in the world for it is the only one with a high standard of living AND freedom (although it is cut back every year).
Taking from one person to give to another is NOT the defining characteristic of "first world". It has become the modern socialism, but it does not define what first world means.GDPR Deleted
Yes. They are wonderful countries to live in...if you like the concept of a nanny state watching over you, ensuring you won't fail, won't go hungry or without needs.
If you prefer freedom and reject that nanny state they are not so pleasant. You obviously DO like the notion, but not all people do - I and a great many Americans find freedom and personal responsibility more important than a government that makes decisions for us and controls most of lives but in return will not allow us to fail.
In line with another thread, this is opinion, and yours is no better than anyone else's. You wish one thing, others wish another, and there are pros and cons plus likes and dislikes to both.Tess, I live by the mantra that what the government provides, it can take away, as do many other Americans. Our concern with installing a government that will provide necessities in exchange for freedoms is partly a concern for losing those freedoms, yes, but it's also a concern that at some point, this reliance upon government will be used against us.
Indeed, "Taking from one person to give to another is NOT the defining characteristic of "first world". It has become the modern socialism, but it does not define ...." and that is why other governments want the USA to follow them in doing so.
Perhaps your condition explains the misplacement of your comment.
Here is the OP, (original post); I don't think the thread has strayed to where you are.
GA
The idea is to keep abortions safe & legal. Although there is advanced birth control, it isn't yet 100% effective. 99% yes but not 100% effective. I see abortion as to when accidents occur but only in its early stages. To play the devil's advocate or contrarian yet again, why is the onus of contraceptive responsibility placed upon women? Why it is that it is mostly men who are the MOST VOCAL about abortion? I want to ask one more question,"When will there be effective male contraceptives?" If men used contraceptives equally w/women, the pregnancy rate would be...…….SIGNIFICANTLY DECREASED.
The problem is, pro-lifer's don't give a damn about the children AFTER they're born. "Wait, why do you need food stamps or welfare to take care of your children?"
Randy, the abortion issue is quite a contentious one. Pro-choicers believe in safe & legal abortions. They furthermore believe in the dignity of women & believe it or not, in the dignity of children. It is their argument that children should be born...……..WANTED. They also argue that children should be born into homes where they can be taken care of. Pro-choicers want THE VERY BEST for women & children.
Pro-lifers, on the other hand, use the issue of abortion to establish their so-called moral superiority. They exert that "life" is the be & end all. They don't care about women & they certainly don't care about children. They are using the abortion platform to interject "how morally superior they are". They are hypocrites, there are pro-lifers who have had past abortions &/or had their family members have abortions. Pro-choicers are upfront while pro-lifers present a façade...…..
Again, I ask the conservatives, what it is they really want?
Do you want to ban all abortion at the point of conception?
What happens when a woman chooses to end their pregnancy on her own, are you going to forbid their access to RU-486?
Are you going t restrict a woman's mobility to go elsewhere to have an abortion if you know that is her intent?
How much control would you have to place on a woman to comply with your draconian demands? As I say, a fetus does not have much of a chance if the mother does not want it.
Conservatives are so obtuse, Roe vs Wade was a reasonable compromise, why can't you leave well enough alone? Do you really think 21st century women are just going to accept all this stuff sitting down?GDPR Deleted
Tess and Grace....
1. It is the arrogance of so many organized religion that believe that their interpretation of God is the only one, such arrogance. There are virtually thousands of religious and deity interpretations out there, I give the least credibility to those that profess one thing yet behave to the contrary
Conservative say that Judeo-Christianity is the foundation of this country. But, I beg to differ, freedom of religion, means to a large degree no establishment from the Government or any of its authorities. This is part of the excuse they use to justify their imposition on the rights and prerogatives of others.
Arrogance and this extreme conservatism is one and the same these days.
Have you noticed? Where are the answers to the questions I posed earlier?
Do they just scurry away like the roaches when the kitchen light is turned on?
No offense meant, Rightwinger, how about answering the questions, do you even have a solution?Credence, you are so correct. Ultratraditionalist, conservative, fundamentalistic, & fanatical religionists vehemently believe that THEIR WAY is the only way. They are threatened by others w/more logical, mature, & enlightened views. They are, in fact, schizoid people whose sense of reality is quite false. They are also retrogressive in their views. They live in the past & refuse to grow. They are miserable people who rely on their twisted, toxic religion to explain a one-sided worldview which has NO BASIS in reality.
Ultraconservative, reactionary, & retrogressive people have a backward, insular view of life. They are also emotionally, mentally, intellectually, & psychological immature. They don't know how to think for themselves. That concept is foreign to them. They are authoritarian in their mindset & purview. What they believe, they want EVERYONE to believe. They are narrowminded. Credence & Tess, it is NEVER GOOD to argue w/such people. They AREN'T about to change but they will come to a bad end. They are FEARFUL of becoming logical & enlightened.
A MULTILLION applauses to you Credence2. Ultraconservatives, reactionaries, retrogressives, fundamentalists, & fanatics want women to have VERY LITTLE or NO reproductive choice/freedom. They want women to be slaves to their reproductive system. They are of the school that sexual acts should result in procreation. They view reproductive choice/freedom as...……..SEXUAL LICENSE, even SEXUAL DEBAUCHERY! That is the mindset & purview of the ultraconservative, reactionary, retrogressive, fundamentalist, & fanatic. They want people to return to the "good old days" where people knew their place.
GDPR Deleted
Really? You actually believe conservatives want women to be slaves to their bodies? You truly believe that conservatives think sex should only be for procreation, as they purchase birth control by the billions? Or do they just want to save our children from murderers that do not value life at all?
Assigning reasons to other's actions that simply fit with an agenda to demonize them but having nothing to do with reality is foolish.GDPR Deleted
Tessa, you are on target. Totally agree. Not only conservative men but conservative women. Conservative women feel the EXACT way.
Tessa, Evangelicals come under ultraconservative, fundamentalist, & fanatical. They are also reactionary & retrogressive.
GDPR Deleted
The late Dr. Hawkings said the same thing. He indicated that such people calibrated at a consciousness level of 140 which isn't good.
They have the moral Right that all citizens of a society should have; the Right to determine the laws that govern their society.
If it is a just society it will not be governed by the rules of pure democracy and the supporters of any law will only have the Right to try to get their laws adopted.
GAGDPR Deleted
You are talking about the details of method; right or wrong, success or failure. I was only answering your "What moral Right?: question.
Do you disagree with my answer?
GA
Credence, the solution to abortion is to invent a birth control method which is 100% effective. Also invent advanced birth control for men. So far the onus of birth control is placed upon women. Male & female contraception used conjunctively would drastically reduce the need for abortion. As contraception becomes very advanced, the need for abortion would be at a very minimum level. As for teenagers, they have to be taught to be responsible sexually. They have to taught about the importance of using birth control.
Strictures against responsible/intelligent sex education has to cease. Birth control must be an integral part of sex education. To adults, birth control must be used responsibly. One can't forget to use birth control if they have sex. Don't have UNPROTECTED SEX- USE CONTRACEPTION. However, abortion must exist, especially in extreme cases such as rape, incest, & other violent sexual acts.Yet, abstinence in order to prevent STDs, is all they teach in too many states in regards to things along these lines. I think it has something to do with those "Ultratraditionalist, conservative, fundamentalistic, & fanatical religionists"
Abstinence teaching is done in the more conservative Midwestern & Southern states. They also teach abstinence education in religious schools. Outside of those, birth control is taught in most states.
You know, I don't think that conservatives are interested in anything beyond control of the sexuality of others. It is a form of misogyny and patriarchal dominance all rolled into to one.
This is not about controlling abortion as it is about controlling sex, the fact that it takes place on a daily basis outside of their purview has to disturb the morally priggish.
If they really care about the welfare of the very young, they would be offering more support after the birth. So they want to hang a woman over a zygote, but neglect, be flinty and stingy with the nutritional needs of infants and young children? Where is the gall in making a women carry a child to term as the result of rape or incest? Is she just an incubation machine, with no opinion of her own regarding carriying such a horrendous pregnancy to term?
If you are serious about chasing after zygotes at the very point of conception, this is more of a war against women's sexuality and by extension just another factor in her freedom being compromised in a way not imposed on men to anywhere near the same extent.
TheSE sorts of people will always have zero credibility in my book.+1000000000000000000000000000000. However, many ultraconservatives, reactionaries, retrogressives, fundamentalists, fanatics, & other regressives are hypocrites in terms of sexuality. Publicly, they are against abortion & sexual expression but in PRIVATE...…..they are beyond debauched sexually.
Let me add that ultraconservative, reactionary, retrogressive, fundamentalist, fanatical, & other regressive men are misogynic, racist, authoritarian, & other negatives. They are against everyone but themselves. They only want freedom for themselves. They are the definition of...……..EVIL & SELFISHNESS. They are doomed to hell for being non-accepting, judgmental & selfish. Although they are purportedly religious, they are Satan incarnates.
GDPR Deleted
Tessa, bingo. That is the main theme of the abortion argument. It isn't about the babies. Oh no, it is about women's sexuality. To put it more specifically, it is about women who have sex outside out of the paradigm.
How many premature deaths--as well as unnecessary diminishing quality of life--were "pro-lifers" responsible for when they cheered on GWB making stem cell research illegal?
I must be missing something. Are any of these comments intended to be extreme or satirical hyperbole?
I hope so, because if some of you folks could hear what your comments sound like, (to non-fanatics), I think you would hope so too.
ultraconservative, reactionary, retrogressive, fundamentalist, fanatical
regressive men
isogynic, racist, authoritarian
EVIL & SELFISHNESS
doomed to hell
Satan incarnates
debauched
form of misogyny
patriarchal dominance
morally priggish
flinty and stingy
schizoid people
retrogressive in their views
refuse to grow
miserable people
twisted, toxic
backward
insular
emotionally, mentally, intellectually, & psychological immature
That's quite a list.
GAYeah, well, enacting laws that would send women and girls back to the dark ages tends to upset people.
So do those that legalize murder of the small people in our lives.
Refusal to utilize honest, empathic discourse with an effort to understand often results in such rants and foolish name calling - name calling which produces more of the same from the other side.Thank you PrettyPanther. Most of the abovementioned wording belongs to me. Yes, I said it. What I have elucidated above aptly describe the types of people who don't want safe, accessible, & legal abortions. I also have a few words but I will contain myself. I was raised to be a lady! I stand by my words & WON'T BACK DOWN!
Perhaps the last one is applicable to those producing such rants?
You forgot witch hunt and hoax, GA.
Oops, I thought you were listing Trump's hyperbole....Careful Randy. Folks might get the impression you have a 'one rail' mind.
GA;-)
"4. There would be a strong social welfare system or even better, a Universal Basic Income. When too many people get too poor, history has shown that there are revolutions. It is interesting that cartoons, these days, are talking more and more about chopping off the heads of the rich (French Revolution). First it starts with laughter of the possibilities. Social Welfare prevents crime and violence. It's bull that it makes people lazy and dependent. The reason some don't want a good Social Welfare system is because they don't want to pay taxes. Well, the price of living in a safe, civilized country is taxes."
#4. is (VERY) problematic.Remember:
"Whether direct taxation in the form of outright theft, or indirect taxation in the form of inflation, these tactics have been used for millennia to maintain privilege for an elite few at the expense of everyone else."
https://www.businessinsider.com/all-tra … tor-2012-4GDPR Deleted
Alabama has one of the highest infant mortality rate s in the country.
Not just Alabama, but pretty much every state that recently enacted stringent anti-abortion laws. Many conservatives care so deeply about a fertilized egg, they resort to drastic government intervention. Children and babies? Not so much.
+1000000000000000000000000000000000. Notice that these states are Bible Belt, fanatically religious, & ultraconservative. It is THEIR intent to return to that OLD ORDER. Very sad but people are going to FIGHT this as well they SHOULD!!!!
Is a double Doh! just rubbing it in? These issues are serious, and we cannot afford to allow the propoganda from either side run us astray from the real solutions.
Real solutions. You mean like free and easy access to birth control, which has been proven to be the single most effective way to reduce abortions?
It has been my experience that vehement pro-lifers are often also vehemently opposed to free and easy access to birth control.
And as I stated, they care not for the children after they're born.
I think they care about children after they're born, just not enough to overcome their mostly unconscious need to be sure women are punished for having sex for the pure joy of it.
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Pretty Panther & Randy. To reiterate, pro-lifers are hypocrites of the biggest order. Publicly, they proclaim against abortion but...….PRIVATELY...……. Let me add if they are male, they are threatened by female sexuality that is outside their narrow paradigm which is procreational, married sex.
GDPR Deleted
Tess, you are so on target w/your analysis. I was thinking along the same lines. As I have reiterated, there is a hypocrisy regarding pro-lifers. They say one thing publicly to be on a so-called moral high ground but in private, they are so...…...DEBAUCHED that they make the proverbial Satan blush....
Of course, typical pro-lifers are AGAINST any artificial form of birth control. They are of the atavistic school that sex= procreation. They contend that any form of reproductive freedom is UNNATURAL. Have you notice that pro-lifers have large to very large families?
Besides real & easy access to birth control, one has to use birth control effectively. Let me add, that invention of effective birth control FOR MEN would SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE abortions? Put the MALE in the picture. It takes TWO to tango!
Mike, there is a mansion on Sutton Place which is $1,000. There is also an exclusive duplex apartment in the West Village for $100 a month...……….
Just shaking my head...
Do you suppose some pro-life folks might be rationalizing and justifying their judgment with the type of vitriol and rhetoric such as seen in this thread?
Is it impossible that their position might be tied solely to a sanctity of life position, without any consideration for any of these "sex-based" determinations being made here?
These comments remind me of a particular New Jersey poster on these forums that seems, (by her comments), to be a virulent man-hater. What "hater" prefix would fit these comments?
Geesh.
GAWell, GA, if you can provide a rational reason for a pro-life person who wants to reduce abortions to reject the one solution proven to do so, then I will consider changing my opinion about their unconscious motivations behind said refusal.
We would have to agree to some basics before I could support an offered reason PrettyPanther.
First, I am assuming the "one solution" you are thinking of is birth control, is that right?
Next, going by the inference I get from your response, you are equating all pro-life folks with the religious folks that don't believe in birth control--due to their religious beliefs. Is that correct?
If so, then I don't see them, (the pro-life folks), as the same group you apparently do.
Understand that my perception is not supported by any life experience emerged with religious folks, (but of course, I do have contact with many sincere Christians), but I see the fundamentalist anti-birth control group of pro-life folks as more of a fringe than the norm in the general pro-life advocates.
So with that perception, I would offer a rational reason that they truly believe in the sanctity of life. I don't think, as the norm, it has anything to do with all these sex-deprived, or sex-envious, or sex-anything judgments being tossed around as superior enlightened perspectives.
I know that just by my comments on this thread I am being judgmental, and as a rule, I try not to be. I have been humbled enough times to know I am no better than anyone else. But...
The negative and derogatory attributions seen in this thread reek of snobbish self-righteousness. Heaven help them, (an appropriate phrase, don't you think?), if they ever have to wear those folks shoes in some life instance.
Now you can offer a rational reason to me. Why do you assume you know what their "unconscious motivations" are? How do you know the norm of pro-life folks rejects birth control? Can't their reason just be religious motivations without any birth control or sex-something drivers?
GAGA, I had a long reply that disappeared into cyberspace and I now don't feel like recreating it. To be clear, I wasn't referring to those who oppose birth control on religious grounds. Notice I said their motivations were "mostly unconscious." I assume that opposition because of a religious belief is conscious. I am speaking of those who say things like women are weak, they can't hold a nickel between their legs, they should develop stronger thigh muscles, etc., in a thread having to do with abortion. This was a couple of years ago, but the poster who said this is still here. I have quite a few Southern Baptists in my family who vote almost solely on the abortion issue. They also use birth control themselves, but are opposed to free and easy access to birth control, even though they have been informed it is the most effective way to reduce abortions. They don't like the idea of encouraging unmarried sex. Apparently, making sure people aren't having sex for pure enjoyment is more important so them than preventing murder. If it wasn't, they would support free and easy access to birth control.
Did you catch the rfefrence to "barnyard sex" in one of these recent threads? That is the mentality I am referring to. Everyone is entitled to their own moral code, but they are not entitled to legislate it upon others, which is what these pro-lifers are doing. I find it ironic that you view us as judgmental, while these people who judge themselves as having such a high moral authority they can force their views upon us by law. Now, THAT is the ultimate in snotty moralizing.Of course, I can't argue with your personal experiences PrettyPanther. It is also personal experiences that have formed my perception. Apparently, we have just had different experiences.
I missed the "barnyard sex" comment, and it is not that type of perspective I was referring to.
From your response, it appears we are talking about different groups of people. None of those in your response would be in the "norm" I was speaking of. Maybe it is my error to view folks such as you describe to be the fringe and not the norm. So be it. I still wouldn't be comfortable engaging in the denigration I see in this thread.
Well, damn, is my foot in the bucket now? Were my comments part of that "snotty moralizing," or was that directed at the pro-life folks you described?
Either way, I have had my say, and right or wrong I will stick with my view on who I think "normal" pro-life folks are and just leave it there.
GAThe "shotty moralizing" comment was not directed at you.
Please consider why stringent anti-abortion laws are being enacted in states with high infant mortality rates. Also, please consider why certain states have low infant mortality rates. What set of beliefs results in this correlation?I will consider your points PrettyPanther, but I will have to look around a bit to do so.
However, none of my comments were intended to support pro-life reasoning.
GA
Sounds as if you had an experience with snipping yourself, Gus!
You got me Randy. I don't know what your "snipping" reference means.
GA
"their position might be tied solely to a sanctity of life position, without any consideration for any of these "sex-based" determinations being made here?"
You're spot on GA. I've watched this debate, and though I understand the objections raised regards those that oppose birth control AND abortion, most of those I've come in contact with who oppose abortion on religious grounds, those I know something about I'll add, typically do so without objections to birth control.
Fact is, I've met 1 catholic couple since childhood that fit into the mold described here, and I've put in more than 50 years.Thanks for the support Hxprof. It looks like I need it on this thread. ;-)
GA
I'm just over here still trying to figure out how anyone on this planet could justify forcing a child to carry her own sibling to term. I can't grasp the idea that people are genuinely this ignorant.
Just be incensed that there are such people around.
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