There are two separate questions really:
1. What if Trump successfully proves that the election was fraudulent?
2. What if Trump does not prove that the election was fraudulent, but is able to gain a 2nd term because one of his political appointees makes it so?
3. What if Trump does not prove fraud but insists on fraud anyway, but is not able to gain a 2nd term?
1. I guess he will have a second term.
2. Not sure what you mean, how can one of his political make it so?
3.He will have to concede if he won't he will be removed from the White House.
I meant more socially. All of these have serious implications. With regard to #2, it could be something along the lines of the conservative justices ruling in his favor. It could be somebody in government doing something, manufacturing evidence. Who knows? For instance:
1. If he were to actually prove the election was fraudulent, our democracy and our country is in serious trouble. Once that cat is out of the bag, it's hard to go back. You're talking about problems that would have to be corrected and fast. Nobody will believe any result in the future. I also think that "proof" is highly subjective. If he is able to litigate himself into a second term, the protests that took place this summer will seem like child's parties. Cities will burn. #2 would produce mass protests too.
3. What does the right do? I expect many will not accept that result and I expect Trump will fan those flames.
Yes, if Trump proves the election was fraudulent the country has to face the problem and fix it. Not ignore it due to it causing serious problems. One can not turn away from such a serious problem or should we. Are you saying you would rather keep the cat in the bag? And yes if not fixed no one will ever respect our elections. In regards to poof. I have not seen any yet or read any of the lawsuits that have been filed. I agree we need physical and verbal proof. If he wins his cases he could remain the president, and yes I am sure we would have protests and riots. That has become the new American way... Don't get your way riot.
I for one don't like the newfound way to get one's point across... So are you proposing we just let people that take to the streets choose our presidents from here on? And possibly ignore voter fraud to placate rioters? I am not sure I am understanding your comment.
I don't know what Trump will do if he loses his battles in the courts. I do know at this point he is doing the right thing if he feels there has been voter fraud. His supporters may take to the streets, but I predict he will step up and denounce them doing so if they turn violent, and burn and riot. It was not Trump that let rioters burn and loot all summer.
I'm trying to be careful about how I phrase things, but suffice it to say, we're in a vicious cycle where everyone seems to be tossing out accusations without evidence. No matter where we are on Jan. 20, I believe there will be a significant portion of the electorate that believes the election was a sham.
When you have no confidence in free and fair elections, you have the conditions for the end of Democracy.
I think you're right - we are potentially facing the end of Democracy.
IMO, it began with the massive efforts to remove an elected president in order to maintain control, and the lack of confidence (inevitable, I think) in our elective process will accelerate it. Again, IMO, distrust of government has been growing for a long time, and it has been ballooning the last few years with the near total refusal to accept the democratic process we use as well as the refusal to accept a duly elected president as the President of the United States.
I don't disagree. It happened with Clinton, Bush, and Obama just as much. It's just been getting worse. The impeachment of Clinton may have started it.
And know we end up with another president that will certainly not be excepted by many, for many reasons. Like he did not campaign or maybe because he appears confused at times. And the scary thought that so many voted for him... Ya think the democratic process is dead? IMO we have bigger problems than worrying about the Democratic process.
NO, one only watch him live to witness his confusion It sad to watch him being used in this way... It's most likely why answered a few questions. When he did at times he would become agitated, and answer inappropriately.
His acceptance speech was well written but rang hollow to me. He is being presumptuous to think a bandaid of words could fix the last four years. We that supported Trump did not see the past four years as something that needs fixing. We saw all of the president's accomplishments and the fact that he was a president for all the people. His words could be trusted, his deeds spoke loudly. Biden's ss speech sought to point out all that he felt was negative about the past four years. This is not heeling that is presumptuous on his part. He spoke to the negative base, gave them all they hoped to hear. Trump bad, me good...
Without democracy, and the democratic process, America will not exist as we know it.
And we are headed that way.
I think we no longer need to use the terminology "headed that way". It's right up in our face... Citizens as a rule vote for a President to represent them and their ideas, and the Presidents should support the citizens' interests. Our Democratic process has become poisoned by propaganda media, social media, Logical thinking has been usurped, and we are now fed ideas that promote fitting into a group or be ostracized. Individuals lose their ideas and become part of a herd.
All true. Couple that with one party (and perhaps two) that is making every effort to become the ONLY party, and democracy is disappearing for voting means nothing.
Voting means nothing when citizenship no longer is essential to vote, when verifying the validity of the ballot is no longer a criteria to counting the vote, and when machines (computers) can be hacked and made to turn votes for one candidate into another.
Most of all, voting means nothing when, after the election, a candidate has a several hundred thousand vote lead, which is wiped out by a process that has no overwatch and violates both the state Constitution and the national Constitution which allows only for a one day election process.
As I have said, it doesn't matter, Trump doesn't have the support of the establishment, foreign or corporate interests... all those with power and clout and the MSM want him gone... so it doesn't matter if he really won the election in PA or anywhere else by millions... he will be gone.
But anyone who defends this abortion of an election is foolish, this election was little better than the South American style elections we see in ruined places like Bolivia and Venezuela.
My man, preach & thank you; however, there are some who REFUSE to admit this. A blind man can see that this "election" was suspect. Something is wrong........SERIOUSLY wrong. Of course, Trump was targeted by the powers that be from the beginning. Trump was an OUTSIDER & OUTSIDERS make establishmentarians very uncomfortable. Remember high school when the popular kids marginalized those whom they consider to be outsiders.
Exactly, I have never witnessed lemming mentality & perspective such as this. This is analogous to the Third Reich where people blindly accepted fascism & targeted those who they deem outsiders. The Democratic/Liberal machine is becoming increasingly fascist in scope & outlook. Liberalism is now Leftism.
It would seem the Dems in Washington are promising a utopia, a wonderful world of tranquility, and offering relief from thinking. --- We will provide wonderful educations free, and healthcare free... And 40 acres and a mule. The only problem, in the end, one ends up in underfunded public schools, sub-par healthcare, and a bunch of mule droppings. My God where is all this crazy heading?
The democrats will reap what they have sown. I think, more so from the far left than anything from the right, but the discord will escalate until the reasonable portion of the left takes control of the party.
I don't think the media is reporting any of the voter fraud accusations in any detail. It appears they are taking a wait and see stance. Which is good. Too bad, they did not do this with Trump and all the very unproven, Russian conspiracy accusations that CNN and MSNBC pounded for two years, and the drummed up impeachment, again with no actual evidence they certainly reported that.
I wish more American's would have cooled their jets as they feel we on the other side should do now. Seems very hypocritical. I am not sure if we that lost will feel the election process was a scam, I am more to think the Dem's took the fight from day one to destroy a dually elected president. One that in my view worked around all their foolishness, and did some great things for the country. And due to sheer hate, they won.
Not sure what is ahead, but as I have said on other occasions offered my concerns that half of America voted for a man that did not campaign, and clearly has cognitive problems brewing. I am ashamed of the Country at this point for so many reasons... And I find it ridiculous that Biden even asks for healing. I for one would not want to be associated with such a party. The thought sickens me.
Don't take offense to my comment. I am sharing, being honest.
Everyone keeps using the unfounded Russian conspiracy accusations. They weren't unfounded. It is a fact Trump campaign officials were communicating with Russian intelligence officers. That provides the basis for an investigation.
The conclusion about what exactly was going on is another argument, but the basis for the investigation was solid.
That 3 years of searching found a little bit or "conspiracy" does not mean that the accusations had a sound base. It means that if you look hard enough you will find.
Those original accusations did not, in fact, have a sound basis - they were proven totally false. But the search continued and eventually turned up something.
I'm not sure which accusations you are referring to, but the basis was sound. Trump campaign people were communicating with Russian intelligence officials.
That is factual information.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/08 … usion.html
Trump campaign officials met with a Russian intelligence officer who was offering Vladimir Putin's help with the election. It's in the report.
Also in the report, the Russians hacked Democratic emails and then leaked them to benefit Trump's campaign.
Republicans keeps saying this didn't happen, but it did.
No, that's not what I mean. I understand that some small number of Americans were trying to influence the election, with Russian help. It wasn't the original claim (Donald Trump colluded with Putin to throw the election), and it wasn't actual fraud, but it WAS illegal under our laws if not those of Russia.
But as I recall thinking back over the years (and I could be wrong, too) the original claim was completely discredited, but by that time the Democrats had jumped with both feet and they were not about to stop their perceived victory dance on Trump's grave. So wrongdoing was found in spite of a first claim that was bogus. That doesn't make a bogus claim valid.
You are conflating two different things: the hyperbole repeated by the media and the actual content of the investigation. The actual content of the investigation, which once again proved to be factual, implied that there could be a wider conspiracy.
And you keep refusing to examine the first bit of evidence, the one that started the investigation going. When you do, you will find that it was bogus...and if you keep looking you will find that the witch hunt was well underway by the time that was proven factually wrong, that there were other bits that DID indicate there might be some wrongdoing, albeit not by Trump (the original target). And, eventually, there was pretty solid proof that some Americans had done wrong (although not by colluding with Russia to throw the election). Had the original guidelines not have been written to include the entire world for it's entire history, that investigation would have gone nowhere...and part of the reason was the first piece of bogus "evidence".
What first bit of evidence? The thing that got the investigation going was the contacts between Trump campaign officials and Russian intelligence. Again, those contacts are facts and indisputable. There was no witch hunt. That's a characterization made by the right-wing media. Go read the bi-partisan report, put out by a Republican led committee.
No, the first thing that got the investigation going was a report of collusion with Russian agents to aid in the election. A report that was proven false and without merit, according to my (fallible) memory. Then, as I stated, the immense investigation into anyone and everything remotely connected to Trump eventually found evidence of some minor connection.
Well, the U.S. had Russian interference in 2016, but nothing was done about it. If, and that's a mighty big IF, there were voter fraud in 2020, what is the difference between voter fraud and foreign interference? Ain't gonna happen, anyway.
Well, we could have sent a couple of missiles their way, but that seems a little strong for posting some false social media posts.
Other than that there isn't much we CAN do. It's not like Russians, or Russia, have to obey US law.
But I agree - we'll fine a handful of people for making fraudulent votes (already underway), and that's about it.
Apparently, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said: "there will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration".
Maybe he knows something the rest of America doesn't, but that's a pretty loaded statement.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 … on-vpx.cnn
He seemed to smile when he said it, so I don't know if he thought he was joking, but when you make a statement like that before presenting clear evidence of fraud, it's extremely disconcerting.
It will be interesting to see where this all goes... I can't even imagine that this is happening. I have never witnessed Trump this silent. IMO --- I think he is going through the courts as he must until he can reach out to the Supreme Court.
Pompeo may have been being sarcastic.
Lets say for purposes of this discussion there was provable fraud in a couple of States where Trump could have won (IE - PA and AZ) of substantial amount (enough to impact the outcome and give the election to Biden).
Trump has no support.
No news agencies support or defend him, from my understanding even Fox has turned on him (I don't know for sure as I don't watch MSM news).
The Republican politicians seem quiet about the whole deal. The majority of them likely want Trump gone, and to get back to politics as usual.
I am sure Twitter and Facebook are locking down any pro Trump election talk, probably have censored Trump's accounts.
A historic amount of people voted for Trump, most likely more than we know, as there is proof some voting machines switched Trump votes to Biden in some areas.
But the people don't matter... the votes don't matter.
The establishment has rejected him, the MSM, including Fox, and Social Media, and the politicians in DC... he has no support.
No one with money or power or political clout is backing him.
So... the election was stolen... so what... it happens in Russia, it happens in Brazil, what makes you think it can't happen here?
I'm disappointed that everything is a deep state conspiracy theory with you, it seems.
From my point of view, he has a lot of support. Few Republicans other than the usual voices (Romney) have denounced him. Most are supporting his legal challenges even though fraud would have to be rampant in order for him to change the outcome of the election. I've heard support from Graham, McConnell, the two Georgia senators, Ted Cruz... lots of others. They realize that their political futures are in the hands of Trump supporters, so they don't want to piss them off.
If fraud is indeed rampant, we have bigger problems than Trump being in office for another 4 years or Biden winning the election or anything else.
It seems either way, we have an electorate that will have little confidence in elections moving forward and Trump has done much to stoke that distrust.
While you have noted that a Biden administration is the beginning of the end of this country and its self-identification, so too is distrust in our elections because, at least up until this election, most people trusted the count and the outcome. Not anymore.
If Trump leaves office, that may end up being his greatest, saddest legacy - convincing about half of the American public that our elections are a fraud. That's real trouble.
Its very simple. When you wantonly open the door to fraud, there will be fraud.
PA wantonly and willingly opened the door to fraud, they actively engaged in doing things that were fraudulent after the election should have been completed.
Nov 2, 2020 — Pennsylvania Democrat AG says Trump already lost the State 'Trump is going to lose,' Shapiro wrote ... of the most important states to call the election before Election Day.
There is no "deep state conspiracy theory" there is only my ability to see, hear and read what is.
You're using that quote from the Pennsylvania AG way out of context, making it seem as though he knew something.
In reality, the AG was responding to Trump's attempt to suppress the vote. He was saying that Trump was going to lose if every vote was counted and his attempts to keep people from voting and votes from being counted was unsuccessful. Like most people on one side or another, he believe his candidate was going to win and that Trump was trying to make things hard for voters because Trump knew that if all registered voters voted, he would lose.
That statement as much proves that Trump is guilty of something if you look at the true context of the statement.
I do agree though, that if you open the door to fraud or money influence or anything in politics, those things are more likely to happen than not. However, if we just automatically assume fraud, we're never going to get anywhere. Why don't we assume that there was fraud in Texas or Utah or Kentucky or Florida? It's just in the places where Trump is losing, right?
Its just in places that violated their own State Constitution, whose elected officials are on record swearing Trump will not win the election, and that took days AFTER the election to wipe out Trumps hundreds of thousands of votes lead with non-post-marked ballots that have no means of being validated.
But keep arguing for the cause of corruption and supporting the criminality of our system, the blinders you wear look good on you.
Trump's lead got wiped out by legitimate ballots turned in by mail because those ballots had to be counted after the others. It was pretty clear that those who showed up in person to the polls favored Trump because Trump spent so much time denigrating mail-in voting while those who wanted to be safer and vote by mail tended to favor Biden.
If we have a criminal system, then Democracy is over. Welcome to the dictatorship, which Trump is ushering in with his bullhorn and his true believers are following. Election officials across the country, who are both Democrats and Republicans, have been supporting the notion that vote counting went well and there was no fraud. But sure, let's believe the kooks who, with no proof, believe the opposite because their candidate lost.
You can keep arguing too. My blinders are on to block the sun reflecting off your tin foil hat.
It's a no-win situation for the US.
If the "massive fraud" allegations are found to be true, then it's an indictment on the state of the US, because it means your whole voting system is a shambles, more open to fraud than systems in any other developed country. I can't believe Americans are that incompetent.
So I think the fraud allegations will turn out to be false - but I think Trump supporters have been so conditioned to believe nothing anyone says, they won't trust the court's decision either. And I am anxoius about how that will play out.
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