What's the score? The Deep State vs. MAGA . . .

1. 85

   tsmogposted 2 years ago

   What say you?
   
   Just for fun . . .
   
   Buying into conspiracy theories can be exciting – that’s what makes them dangerous
   https://theconversation.com/buying-into … ous-184623
   
   Panel Study of the MAGA Movement
   https://sites.uw.edu/magastudy/
   
   Deconstructing the deep state
   https://www.govexec.com/feature/gov-exe … eep-state/
   
   Trump World Plans to Take Over the Deep State
   https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/07 … state.html
   
   The ‘deep state’: From scholarly critique to toxic conspiracy theory
   https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ … story.html

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      Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      In my view, buying into conspiracies has become a pass-time with some. The crazier the better, and yes I find this kind of mindset dangerous.  It would seem with all the very visible corruption we could as a society grasp onto facts, and let go of drummed-up unfactual conspiracies. Since Trump came to the political stage in 2015 he has (IMO) suffered one attack after another. All started as conspiracies, with little to no facts to even support the conspiracies being dished up. All have been discarded as untrue thus far, but still, tantalize those that need to believe the man evil, and unfit to be heard.  He has been labeled just about every despicable name in the book. Yet, there is little evidence to support his given labels. So, are conspiracies dangerous, and destructive, yes I feel they are. They promote unfounded hate, and division.
      
      The MAGA movement is complicated, and I found the article informative, but not a perfect description of the movement. So, I can only share my thoughts on the movement. It spans all social classes, one ascribes their own meaning to the term. Some very rudiment, some very complex. Ultimately (IMO) to all that ascribe to the ideology the root is putting America, and its citizen's needs first. Why? Because many have felt our Government was and continues to fail many. Many have been given a voice under MAGA, that was just not heard or considered before Trump's presidency.
      
      In regard to the deep state. Trump came into office and well discovered there is a deep state of elites that pretty much have power, and were becoming more powerful. Many that he saw as Marxist sought to dominate the prevailing cultural narrative. And seeking to take America down a path that was unrecognizable to most Americans. In my view,  those that are threatened by Trump include “deep state elitists, globalists, bankers,, and establishment Republicans. became and are still hell-bent on maintaining the power they enjoyed, and taking America in a direction that goes against all of what we have lived under and enjoyed. To me, it is very obvious that this is the very reason why Trump has been attacked with any and all they could come up with. I mean we have sat by and watched many on the left break laws, and now even weaponize the DOJ and FBI. These are the very things Trump was accused of and never proven to be true... The projection on the left part is so visible, that it makes anyone with common sense, laugh. So, yes the deep state is visible to some, and not others. But, Trump has wounded it badly, hence all the new bombs being lobbed at him. They have stepped up their game, and yes, with the weaponized FBI, and DOJ  they may feel very confident they can rid America of MAGA.  But, will they, I guess that is the question?
      
      I think that the MAGA movement has attracted many from all walks of life. I feel in the end more will opt to keep America, America, and have no interest in becoming anything else. We have enjoyed a country unlike any other. When push comes to shove Americans will not give up on American values, and put America first.

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         tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks for the reply. Reflectively, I was part of the 'Deep State' at the corporation I worked for. One might say I was the hub of it. I did all the data mining and report building along with auditing of 24 auto repair/tire stores and two warehouses including their performances be that from inventory to sales to labor to profit and of course management measurements. In other words I was despised by many ha-ha Yet, at times I did receive a pat on the back too. Kinda' a thankless thing.
         
         But, the bottom line I was just an employee with authenticity, integrity, and a work ethic doing what I was instructed by the leadership that contributed to the growth of the company. One thing was my work was trusted rarely questioned. When it was I would show step by step taking at times a length of time how the answer was determined proving true. Alas, it was their turn to accept the truth revealed and fight their own battle of dissonance.

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            Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Well did anyone that worked with you step up and make the claim you did something unacceptable?  As FBI agents have done on their peers.
            
            The FBI has over the past 6 years been smack in the middle of perpetrating polys to help a political party.
            
            So, just because they are the FBI, yes has had a good reputation for fighting all types of crime, do we look past some of the very crooked things they have been accused of?
            
            I won't list all the problems that point to corruption by certain FBI agents. I am sure you are aware of the list.
            
            I will openly say, I feel they have become an agency that is compromised at the top.

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      GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      The first link is the winner, it made sense to me, and, it didn't carry a distorting political bias.
      
      As for who is winning . . . it sort of compares to the Russia/Ukraine slog—undecided, on the surface, but a foregone conclusion below.
      
      (Just follow the rabbit)
      
      GA

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      1. 85

         tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         "I'm late, I'm late! For a very important date! No time to say 'hello, goodbye,' I'm late, I'm late, I'm late!" (Introduction of the White Rabbit in Alice in Wonderland heading for the hole.)
         
         Just for giggles and reading pleasure while pondering the time of the story's writing take a peek . . .
         
         Alice in Wonderland’s hidden messages
         https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/201 … n-messages

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            GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Considering the story prompting the writing of the tale, it seems your link's extrapolations might be a case of 'smart' folks making something out of nothing. I think it is most probable that the author didn't intend any of the subsurface meanings being attributed to it. Maybe it's simply a fanciful tale intended for children instead of 'deep' writing by a drug-taking pedophile. m*shrug
            
            But it was a good link to read.
            
            GA

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               tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Giggle + giggle! Kinda' reminds one of the media today, eh? Of course anyone who takes information and using confirmation bias makes 'what' become 'that' could be considered a fable.
               
               Years ago I took a literature class that was about fables, stories, and such thought to be written for children, yet, too, were about the politics of the day, philosophy, and social stuff of the day. We spent a fair amount of time on Gulliver's Travels, a little bit on The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, and without oddity the parables of Jesus. One thing I got out of the class is the literature devices used such as allegories, symbolism, and such. As they say the power of the pen.

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                  GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  You got me. It was just speculation. I agree with your points. Many 'innocent' kids' stories are different than generally perceived and carry messages that are, or are in, that innocence.
                  
                  The question is whether they are really intended, as described, or are they word choices formed by the times and interpreted to be purposeful statements?
                  
                  Of course, that's just a contrarian argument that frequently opens a door  for academic and 'book-club-type Lit. discussions.
                  
                  GA

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                     tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     When I offered the link to Alice in Wonderland’s hidden messages on the back burner of my mind was Buying into conspiracy theories can be exciting – that’s what makes them dangerous. I think one should consider Conspiracy theories are not limited to governing and politics. I see that every morning when I watch TMZ live.
                     
                     The truism of one statement in the article about conspiracy theories and people believing in them that stands out for me is "If we want to understand why people believe what they believe, we need to look not just at the content of their thoughts, but how that information feels to them." Feelings, hmmm . . .
                     
                     With your thought in a previous reply, "Maybe it's simply a fanciful tale intended for children instead of 'deep' writing by a drug-taking pedophile. m*shrug" in essence agrees with the author's concluding statement in the article about 'Alice in Wonderland' being "Rather than look for meaning we’d do better to simply delight in the ride."

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                        GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        The line about 'how information feels' was a hook for me too. The explanation that followed set the hook: confusion, (not being sure), feels uncomfortable, and affirmation, (your 'confirmation bias'), feels pleasant.'
                        
                        Reading for pleasure is a 'delightful' ride. When a good book absorbs you, a la 'Alice', it's a buzzkill to have secondary thoughts chasing behind, speculating on 'what did they really, mean by that?'.
                        
                        GA

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                           Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           But what about those who don't dig for information to affirm a bias?
                           
                           What if they are simply digging to find out what the reasons are behind what is going on in a particular situation?
                           
                           Sometimes there is little more than a person understanding that nothing is ever as straightforward as a news show or news article would make it appear.  Down the rabbit hole they go, with not much else but curiosity and a desire to understand the reason "why".
                           
                           Oh and as for the question 'Deep State vs. Trump'... I let my bias wander, this sums it up pretty well:
                           
                           https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_vFi79ozY

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      Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Actual facts can be boring and mundane:  A lot of people seem to want to believe in ‘cloak and dagger’ stuff (conspiracy theories) even though it’s all nonsense; people looking for hidden secrets (scandals) where there are no secrets (conspiracy) – and such people are so gullible to believe any ‘untruths’ they are feed just to satisfy their desire for excitement, or just because they are told what they want to hear!
      
      Not being an American, I didn’t know what MAGA was; so I had to look it up on Google.  All political parties have their slogans, which they change with time; It’s not often such a slogan captures the imagination of the nations, at least not in Britain.  Although there have been slogans that have, for example during the war (WW2) a number of popular and successful slogans included “Dig for Victory”; “Make Do and Mend” and “Keep Calm and Carry On” etc.
      
      In recent years one of the British Conservative Party slogans has been “Build Back Better” and the British Labour Party slogan was “Stronger Together”.

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         tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I just ordered an interesting book I am looking forward to reading.
         
         How to Lie with Statistics Paperback – October 17, 1993
         https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393310728/?c … _lig_dp_it
         
         I used the Amazon link to just offer reviews for your perusal.
         
         I find conspiracy theories interesting as they in my mind no matter how feeble it is are truly skepticism (Doubt) at its best. If you did not read the first link I recommend doing so. I can remember at work the conspiracy theories that grew from a notion by one person growing to rumors floating from store to store soon fostering fear, which according to Plunchik's Wheel of Emotion is just that an emotion where at its base is 'Terror'. hmmmm . . .

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            Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Lets consider what is "Deep State":
            
            "a body of people, typically influential members of government agencies or the military, believed to be involved in the secret manipulation or control of government policy" is a definition I found when Googled.
            
            A body of people... in this case many higher ups in the FBI, CIA, DOJ along with many in the Obama Administration who would have been carried over in the Clinton Administration, had she won.
            
            I think it was clear they went above and beyond to derail Trump's campaign, to tie him to Russian collusion, to then compromise his Administration once he was elected, etc. etc.
            
            This is not "conspiracy" this is all provable, factual, history.
            
            Many of the same figures that stood against Trump, or acted against Trump's Administration are still there.  Biden is one of those people, Pelosi and Schumer are others, they are of course politicians of the opposite party... but they are also life long DC insiders and are considerably richer and more powerful for "serving the people".
            
            To say the FBI, NSA, IRS is not currently being weaponized against Trump and former or current supporters would be naive IMO.  To deny that an effort, outside the law, outside the norms, was made to do harm to Trump's campaign and his Administration would be to deny reality.
            
            The "Deep State" exists, it is what both Dwight D. Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy warned us about.  And if you don't have faith in those two gentlemen, their character, insight and understanding, then I don't know who you can trust or believe... Joe Biden is no John Kennedy, he is in every way I can imagine, the political and moral antithesis to him.

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               tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               hmmmm . . . Cred was a civil servant to my understanding.

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                  Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  We have always been warned of the Military Industrial Complex, which applied to both political parties.
                  
                  This Deep State stuff is applied to Democrats and not Republicans and in my opinion is just more partisan goulash from their side, not particularly appetizing.

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                     tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     Howdy Cred! Forgive me for making a pun with your respected service as a career.
                     
                     The deep state became popular with Trump did it not? Interesting to me is the president can make personnel changes once taking office. From what I have read the changes did occur with Trump, so where was the deep state? I mean the cabinet did change did it not?
                     
                     Interesting articles . . .
                     
                     When presidents change, these are the ones who stay
                     https://share.america.gov/when-presiden … will-stay/
                     
                     Will Federal Employees Work for a President They Disagree With?
                     https://hbr.org/2017/02/will-federal-em … agree-with

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                        Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        That does not change the facts of the efforts made against him prior to his taking Office, nor the efforts made against him by those who retained their positions for a year or more after he took office.
                        
                        Its not an easy thing to "clean out" the DOJ, FBI, CIA, of people who are vehemently opposed to the incoming President and his efforts.
                        
                        I think for those who paid attention the "resistance" to Trump was fairly obvious.
                        
                        Some reminders of 2017:
                        
                        https://news.yahoo.com/on-the-left-a-ca … 43493.html
                        
                        https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/17/politics … index.html
                        
                        https://www.judicialwatch.org/fbi-conspires/
                        
                        I hate appearing as if I am defending Trump.  But what happened matters, false accusations were made against him from the outset, a "resistance" from within the halls of DC was made in earnest.  Efforts to take down anyone who supported him with whatever accusation they could drum up was very real. 
                        
                        If you are against Trump than all this doesn't matter, the "whatever it takes" rule is accepted.  But they were not doing this for the American people, they were doing it to preserve their own power, preserve their own political biases and agendas, to cover up their own crimes and corruption.

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                        Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        No harm, no foul, TSmog.
                        
                        Thanks for the article links.
                        
                        The Civil Service Act of 1883 was designed to take the patronage, partisanship and subsequently the corruption associated with goverenment office seeking. Trump and his ideas threaten a return to the Pretorian Guard and syncophants that are loyal to him rather than the people of the United States. I am proud to have served under every American President from Jimmy Carter through Barack Obama, doing the job and not playing partisan favorites. I did not care much for Reagan, but my personal opinion and professional behavior were two different things.
                        
                        All this "stuff" was created by rightwing ditto heads to excuse Trumps beliefs and behavior. "Why can't my generals show loyalty and fealty to me like Hitler's generals did toward him", from Donald J Trump
                        
                        There is no Deep State, just either you adhere to Trump's ideas of autocratic rule or you don't.

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                           Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           No... all this "stuff" was created long before Trump came along.
                           
                           This "stuff" was warned about by Eisenhower and Kennedy.
                           
                           This "stuff" is very real and very obvious to some of us.
                           
                           There are TWO different issues here... this "stuff" and Trump.
                           
                           There were too many who said Obama was a "Manchurian Candidate"  that he was Muslim, hated America, etc. etc.
                           
                           Did the Bush Administration use the FBI, DOJ, etc. to spy on Obama's campaign, thwart his cabinet choices and put up a "resistance" against him?
                           
                           There were too many that labeled Trump "the next Hitler" said he was a member of the KKK, etc. etc.
                           
                           Why was it OK for the FBI and DOJ to be weaponized against Trump?
                           
                           Does that mean it would have been OK for Bush to do so against Obama?
                           
                           I suppose it shows that the Republicans really don't deserve to be in power, they are not willing to do whatever it takes, lie, bribe, kill, whatever needs to be done... they are weak, they don't use the power of the Alphabet agencies to undermine their opponents.

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            Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Yep, I did read the first link, very enlightening for anyone willing to listen; the title sums it up “Buying into conspiracy theories can be exciting – that’s what makes them dangerous”.
            
            Thanks for the link to the Amazon paperback on “How to Lie with Statistics”, and as you said, the reviews are revealing, for example the first review I read summed it up with “a book about understanding how statistical analysis can be abused (by journalists, politicians, advertisers, etc., etc.).”; so true.  And the review went onto say “It does not denigrate the practice of statistical analysis itself”; also very true.
            
            Statistics is one subject I studied for exam qualifications at College; and statistics is something that was a major part of my job in the civil service – not just analysing, but also compiling and publishing in ‘Reports’ for senior management and government.  But unlike the ‘Press’ we never used statistics to misrepresent the facts.
            
            What you describe in your concluding paragraph reminds me so much of “Chinese Whispers” e.g. where the message (story) gets distorted as it’s passed on from one person to the next; so that the final message (Story), passed on, and elaborated many times, has nothing to do with reality (the original message/event).  That’s why ‘fact checking’ (checking the original source information) is so important; and if more people learnt how to ‘fact check’ properly we’d have far less ‘misinformation’ circulating the web.
            
            To lighten the mood; the official music video "Chinese Whispers": https://youtu.be/jtdKuKbHtJk

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      Miebakagh57posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      It's purely an American Feaeral government affair. It seems whoever control the Federal government, control the  DEEP state. Biden, is now taking advantage of that.

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   tsmogposted 2 years ago

   Everything, maybe, you want to know about the deep state in an abridged format when considering its history. A kinda' lengthy read, yet very much worth it perhaps opening one's mind to its complexity dating back long before Trump.
   
   How the Deep State Came to America: A History (War on the Rocks, 2019)
   https://warontherocks.com/2019/02/how-t … a-history/

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      Miebakagh57posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      TSMog, thanks for the link. It's a good read that demystified my curiosity of the deep state.                                       Other than that, I've been infering and my inference gather some truth. But there's nothing linking George Orwell's '1984' in all the studies ever made.

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