Why Trump Supporters Believe He is Innocent With 91 Felony Counts.

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  1. peoplepower73 profile image83
    peoplepower73posted 10 months ago

    I am no psychologist or psychiatrist, but I have had enough therapy in my 84 years to be able to teach classes on Cognitive Base Therapy (CBT) and Dialectic Based Therapy. (DBT).

    CBT is very simple to grasp. It is based on reframing your negative thoughts that are bothering you.  Either the glass is half full or it is half empty, depending on your frame of mind.  So all one has to do is become aware of  those feeling that make you feel negatively about something and document how you feel about that situation.

    Next, you look for something that is positive about that situation.  There can always be something one can find to make them feel positive about it.  Then all you do is document how that makes you feel. In other words, you have re-framed your thoughts into something positive. If you see a picture with a black frame around it will invoke negatives thoughts. A picture with a bright, cherry frame around it will invoke positive thoughts.

    Here is an article by a neuroscientist who explains why MAGA Supporters refuse to accept Trump's criminal charges. It is based on CBT and the Dunning Kruger Effect.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ … &ei=44

    1. wilderness profile image94
      wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Do these theories include an explanation of the happiness and joy in thinking that an indictment or charge indicates guilt, without the evil necessity of having a trial?  That might explain a lot for those that perpetually declare guilt without need for the actions we in this country consider necessary for the declaration, things such as a trial, a jury of peers, guilt beyond any reasonable doubt, etc.

      1. peoplepower73 profile image83
        peoplepower73posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        Wilderness:  Nobody said  there is not going to be a trial.  Hopefully, there will be four of them. A trial is not an "evil necessity."  If Trump if found innocent, his supporters will rejoice.  If Trump and his co-conspirators are found guilty, the anti-Trumpers will rejoice because justice has been truly served.

        Right now the glass is half full for Trumpers because he is campaigning and he and they can focus on that.  While the glass for anti-Trumpers is half empty. If Trump and company is found guilty of all four indictments, then the content of the glass gets reversed because justice has bee truly served. 

        In your reference to your second paragraph, I can say the same thing about Biden haters.  Right now the house is forming a committee to impeach Biden. Aren't they assuming he is guilty until proven innocent without a trial?

        1. wilderness profile image94
          wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          If the glass is half empty, why the glee and celebrations?  That is not the mark of people with a half empty glass; it is the mark of a full glass.  It is the mark of people that have already decided guilt without the need for a trial, and thus think their glass is full.  (They seem to have quickly forgotten the results of two previous "trials" in Congress over Trump's guilt or innocence.)

          Which is why I asked if the theories address this kind of thinking - it does seem very similar to what you were discussing.

          1. peoplepower73 profile image83
            peoplepower73posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Wilderness:  It is relative if the glass is half full or half empty.  It depends on the frame of mind that the person is in. You can also look at it as if the glass is completely full or completely empty.  It is still relative to a frame of mind When Trumpers see the glass full, anti-Trumpers see that glass empty, if that makes you feel better. I'm not going to get into a contest with you about the glass metaphor.

            1. wilderness profile image94
              wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              You're right; the glass is only a metaphor for actions and mindset.  But the question remains.  Given the years long persecution, never finding a conviction, why are the anti-Trumpers so gleeful about some more indictments? 

              The answer lies in hope: this time!  This time he's going to jail for sure!  We got him at last!  Without ever considering that all it takes is a single juror to ruin that hope, but that's because, just like the other times, it is obvious beyond belief that he's guilty.  If they could I really believe that the anti-Trumpers would simply jail him - to trial necessary.

              1. Credence2 profile image78
                Credence2posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                "If they could I really believe that the anti-Trumpers would simply jail him - to trial necessary."

                Yes, I think that Trump sucks, I always have. But that does not mean that he will not be given the benefit of the legal system and a fair trial as prescribed in the Bill of Rights. I just couldn't stomach the MAGAs turning him into some sort of martyr over a perceived lynch mob.

                But what he won't get is "preferential treatment".

                1. wilderness profile image94
                  wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                  Then you should probably start with a presumption of innocence, not with a declaration of guilt.

                  1. Credence2 profile image78
                    Credence2posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                    I do think that he is guilty on all counts, there are too many coincidences, concerning activities in this entire sordid affair such that there has to be a source or cause.

                    But what do my thoughts matter? I am not the one who will make the decision.

                    But, I think and also SAID that Trump is entitled to his day in court and we will let the justice system substantiate my presumption or not. So, what does my presumption have to do with it?

              2. peoplepower73 profile image83
                peoplepower73posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                Wilderness:  It's not that they haven't found a conviction.  It's called due process of law and it takes a long time.Just be patient. Trump is like a mafia boss with a lot of money and the lawyers to try and delay and move the trials to other venues, but it is not working. 

                He has just admitted that he is guilty of Jan. 6, but it is because the election was rigged.  You see there is no end to his denial, because it makes him feel good to be in denial.

                He can't handle the truth, it would blow his mind.  He has always said he has done noting wrong in all four of these indictments.  He can plead not guilty and so can his co-conspirators. The Constitution gives them that right. In my view, with all he pain and suffering he has caused he does not deserve to be president ever again.

                https://www.inquisitr.com/trump-admits- … ion-claims

                1. wilderness profile image94
                  wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                  And during that long time it takes, he is presumed innocent.  By some; others will presume guilt without a trial.

                  Oh c'mon!  Trump has never admitted guilt of the riot Jan 6.  Such claims are utter nonsense and are part of the problem we are seeing in this country.  Outright lies presented as simple facts when everyone knows better.

                  Yes, he can plead not guilty, has done so...and millions of people declare him guilty without a trial, without evidence, without formal testimony.

                  1. peoplepower73 profile image83
                    peoplepower73posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                    Wilderness:  It doesn't take a trial to see what happened on Jan.6  It doesn't take a trial to hear the phone conversation with Raffensberger, Trump and Meadows and Giuliani, et al.  It doesn't take a trial to see the undue stress put upon a mother and daughter team who were just trying to fulfill their Constitutional right as ballor counters. Their lives have been threatened and  turned upside down because of false accusations.

                    You are using the excuse of a trial to minimize what Trump and company have done. Even if he is found innocent of all four indictments.  The grief he caused to all those he has affected will linger on. 

                    There is only one truth and one reality, no matter what the courts find. With enough money and influence the democratic process can get in the way of the truth and reality. Let's face it, you are hoping he is found innocent of all charges in all four indictments and I am hoping he is found guilty of all charges in all four indictments. Is the glass half full or half empty?

          2. peoplepower73 profile image83
            peoplepower73posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Wilderness:  You neve answered my question about the house trying to impeach Biden. The Freedom Caucus is nothing more than a mob that wants to impeach Biden without a fair trial.  They are assuming he is guilty until proven he is innocent. Further, they are holding McCarthy hostage if he doesn't do what they want him to.  Where is the justice in that?  Either he toes their line or he is toast with one vote. It is my opinion, they are doing this on Trump's behalf because he still controls the MAGA part of congress while in the shadows.

            1. wilderness profile image94
              wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              In my opinion it is being done as tit-for-tat; you did it to our man, we will do it to yours.  Pelosi was "held hostage" (although not quite so obvious), now McCarthy is.  Trump was impeached without any real evidence, Biden may be.

              I'm failing to see the difference, which is why I have the belief that I do about the "inquiry".  Heck, we even have McCarthy explaining that he doesn't need a House vote to start the inquiry...because Pelosi did it first!

              1. Willowarbor profile image61
                Willowarborposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                Pelosi ended up taking a vote though.
                She called McCarthy's statement hogwash and doesn't understand why the press keeps repeating it.

                https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna105030

                What is a fact though? Is that Republicans are ignoring the rule set by Bill Barr that a house vote must be taken before an impeachment.  inquiry is launched.

                1. Sharlee01 profile image89
                  Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                  I've gathered that while the House did indeed conduct a vote to initiate the first impeachment inquiry against Trump, it wasn't done until approximately a month into the investigation. Speaker Pelosi formally declared the impeachment inquiry on September 24, 2019, but the House didn't cast their votes on this matter until October 31.

                  So, to clarify, there was a vote held a month after the impeachment inquiry had commenced. In this context, it could be argued that she wasn't necessarily dishonest with Anderson Cooper but may not have presented the full timeline of events.

    2. peoplepower73 profile image83
      peoplepower73posted 10 months agoin reply to this

      The Dunning-Kruger Effect of those who don't have the cognitive knowledge of a subject to know they don't have the knowledge, but think they do.

      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ … &ei=56

      1. Sharlee01 profile image89
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        I'm unsure if Trump supporters should be categorized as a single homogeneous group. It's worth noting that there's a psychological term that cautions against such generalizations — "Groupthink," a phenomenon wherein individuals within a group tend to seek consensus, often setting aside their own individual beliefs to align with the group's opinions.

        I'm not entirely convinced that it's prudent to diminish people's capacity to view life with a "half-full cup" perspective. From my standpoint, this approach reflects a certain humility, a willingness to refrain from succumbing to groupthink or passing judgment until all the facts are presented. This principle is particularly pertinent in situations like Trump's indictment, where the presumption of innocence until proven guilty seems judicious.

        One can't help but consider the numerous accusations directed at Trump, only for him to be ultimately exonerated. It appears somewhat peculiar to wholeheartedly embrace a mindset that leans into groupthink. Nonetheless, it's become increasingly popular and provides shelter to those who may not possess strong individual critical thinking skills.

        1. Willowarbor profile image61
          Willowarborposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          I don't feel or it does not appear that the MAGA movement encourages critical thinking.  Quite the opposite.
          From my view, Trump encourages  his supporters to rely on a "collective construction of rationalization"  (an element of groupthink) that allows supporters to avoid critical  analysis of fact in favor of easier explanations that "everyone is after Trump" Or "it's just fake news from lib sources"  In the end, these rationalizations encourage the MAGA coalition  to avoid considering information that conflicts their current belief system. Trump has essentially provided built-in answers for his supporter to circumvent thought and research. No critical thinking skills involved.  It seems much like a cult leader that provides rationalizations and dogma to the group they lead; Trump provides dogma to his followers and clear answers for how to respond when challenged. Just my opinion, but I think Trump utilizes components of groupthink and has been able to  successfully manipulate the reality of many of his followers.  How often have you seen those canned responses used on these very forums?

          1. wilderness profile image94
            wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Is that not how ALL politicians talk?  Never give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  Always exaggerated and, quite often, outright lies?

            It is the way of the world today; never, ever, give enough information to make an informed decision.  Always give ONLY that information (true or not) that supports what you want the listener to believe.  And it's not limited to politicians, either.

          2. Sharlee01 profile image89
            Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Fascinating response! It's clear that we approach this issue from distinct perspectives, as evidenced by our comments. While I respectfully hold a different viewpoint, I genuinely appreciate and respect your thoughts. Reading diverse opinions like yours is always enlightening.

        2. peoplepower73 profile image83
          peoplepower73posted 9 months agoin reply to this

          I agree with Willowarbor, but I'm going to delve a little deeper into why Trumpers have been manipulated by Trump's groupthink.  Hillary's "Lock her up and Benghazi" were groupthink.  TDS with no scientific basis and The Deep State are also a result of groupthink

          The Jan. 6 stop the steal, hang Mike Pence, Where are you Nancy are a result of groupthink, Just storming the capital was a result of groupthink. The proud boys and oath keepers were a result of groupthink.

          And now The Freedom Caucus is holding Kevin McCarthy hostage while they force him to do The Right Thing or they will vote him out.  Of course, the right thing is to impeach Biden, prosecute Hunter, and shutdown the government until they get what they want. This is all brought about by Trump's long reach of groupthink influence on the radical right wing of the house.

          Waiting for the trial and hoping they find Trump innocent when the whole world, including Trump, knows that he tried to overturn the election on Jan.6 is also GroupThink. Trump's rallies are designed to invoke groupthink. He is polling ahead while there are four indictments pending, but he and his supporters ignore or don't know they even exists is also groupthink.

          Here is the Psychology Today explanation of GroupThink.

          https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/groupthink

          1. Sharlee01 profile image89
            Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

            "I agree with Willowarbor, but I'm going to delve a little deeper into why Trumpers have been manipulated by Trump's groupthink.  Hillary's "Lock her up and Benghazi" were groupthink.  TDS with no scientific basis and The Deep State are also a result of groupthink" ---

            Is it appropriate to assign derogatory labels to any group? For instance, I could use the term "Bidunces" for Biden supporters, but wouldn't this be an instance of participating in the labeling and demeaning of others? I coined this term as an example. Regarding Hillary and her email scandal, it's well-documented that she breached protocol, and Comey chose not to recommend prosecution for various issues he did uncover. Here's a link providing valuable insights and clear evidence of her protocol violations concerning her private server and its careless use.

            "The Jan. 6 stop the steal, hang Mike Pence, Where are you Nancy are a result of groupthink, Just storming the capital was a result of groupthink. The proud boys and oath keepers were a result of groupthink." ---

            It is evident that the courts have reached verdicts against multiple individuals associated with the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. It is reasonable to assert that this particular subset of Trump supporters had intentions to cause disruption at the Capitol. However, it is important to note that on that day, there were reportedly up to 30,000 people present for Trump's speech, and the vast majority of them peacefully dispersed afterward.

            I want to emphasize the importance of not generalizing or lumping all Trump supporters together. Doing so demonstrates a form of groupthink that oversimplifies a diverse group of individuals. Trump supporters, like any political group, encompass a wide range of perspectives.

            Conservatives are generally known for their strong convictions, aversion to violence, adherence to common sense principles, and their pride in being independent thinkers. They tend not to be easily swayed by trends or fads; for instance, it would be improbable to find a staunch Republican purchasing a "pet rock."

            It is crucial to acknowledge that there are indeed right-wing extremist groups, but they do not represent the majority of Trump supporters, and they do not neatly align with any political party.

            "And now The Freedom Caucus is holding Kevin McCarthy hostage while they force him to do The Right Thing or they will vote him out.  Of course, the right thing is to impeach Biden, prosecute Hunter, and shutdown the government until they get what they want. This is all brought about by Trump's long reach of groupthink influence on the radical right wing of the house." ---

            I ask how many are in the actual "Freedom Caucus"?   They are clearly a group that supports Trump, but you should realize the remaining Republicans in the House are individuals, and all have their own opinion on whether Biden should be impeached. The Hunter Biden investigation is being conducted under the current DOJ. As well as the House Judicial Committee. So, not sure anyone can stop that in-motion wrecking ball. I have shared my view in regard to the need to investigate Hunter Biden and ascertain if Joe Biden played any part in his businesses. It's very much too glaring to note that all the transactions Hunter made were conducted with Nations that Joe Biden was appointed to oversee Foreign policy. Again, I am not claiming Joe Biden is guilty, only that the information that has been rolling in be looked at carefully.

            "Waiting for the trial and hoping they find Trump innocent when the whole world, including Trump, knows that he tried to overturn the election on Jan.6 is also GroupThink. Trump's rallies are designed to invoke groupthink. He is polling ahead while there are four indictments pending, but he and his supporters ignore or don't know they even exist is also groupthink." ---

            I'm curious about the size of the "Freedom Caucus." They appear to be a small group strongly aligned with Trump, but it's essential to recognize they are few. The remaining Republicans in the House are individuals, each with their own opinions regarding the potential impeachment of Biden. It's worth noting that the Hunter Biden investigation is currently underway within the Department of Justice and the House Judicial Committee. Therefore, they have no power to stop either investigation.

            I've previously expressed my viewpoint on the necessity of investigating Hunter Biden to determine if there was any involvement by Joe Biden in his business dealings. It's hard to ignore the fact that these transactions took place with nations that Joe Biden was tasked with overseeing in terms of foreign policy. Please understand that I'm not making any accusations against Joe Biden but simply emphasizing the importance of scrutinizing the information that has come to light. 

            Regarding the anticipation of Trump's trial and the hope for his acquittal, it's important not to assume what others are thinking about his guilt or innocence. When it comes to his favorable polling numbers, it's essential to consider the issues being polled. This can provide insights into why Trump is leading in the polls.

            I often find it puzzling when people question why Trump maintains popularity. To understand this, one should examine the concerns being raised in the polls. Many individuals seem disheartened by the direction in which the country is heading. They express concerns about the economy, immigration, education, differing ideologies, crime rates, the influx of drugs, and the associated deaths, a very expensive war, as well as his foreign policies.
            Additionally, some are disheartened by what they perceive as a government promoting division through race-related issues, and an overreach into parental rights.

            Lastly, there is frustration with an administration that appears to control and restrict what a president can say or should not say. Some believe that the president has aged and may be experiencing cognitive decline, which they feel hinders his ability to perform his duties effectively.

            So, I would guess Trump is garnering support due to many feeling he did a better job at many of the above issues I have offered. hard to say why he leads in the polls --- you see not all people think alike.  Especially conservatives.

            Source for Comey findings    https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases … ail-system

            I have left a lengthy comment, in hopes of sharing my views, on all of your sentiments. It should work to help you understand my sentiments.

            1. peoplepower73 profile image83
              peoplepower73posted 9 months agoin reply to this

              "Is it appropriate to assign derogatory labels to any group? For instance, I could use the term "Bidunces" for Biden supporters, but wouldn't this be an instance of participating in the labeling and demeaning of others?"

              Didn't you just assign groupthink to anti-Trumpers, isn't that demeaning, isn't TDS demeaning, libtard, commie socialist.  They are all demeaning.?

              I see conservatives in these forums as self-aggrandizing and self-righteous without realizing they are being hypocritical.

              "It is evident that the courts have reached verdicts against multiple individuals associated with the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. It is reasonable to assert that this particular subset of Trump supporters had intentions to cause disruption at the Capitol. However, it is important to note that on that day, there were reportedly up to 30,000 people present for Trump's speech, and the vast majority of them peacefully dispersed afterward."

              Who cares? My point is the proud boys and oath keepers were all influenced by Trump and were practicing groupthink..


              "Regarding the anticipation of Trump's trial and the hope for his acquittal, it's important not to assume what others are thinking about his guilt or innocence. When it comes to his favorable polling numbers, it's essential to consider the issues being polled. This can provide insights into why Trump is leading in the polls."

              That's important for you, but not for those of us who are not in denial of the facts we have witnessed.

              I get the feeling you think groupthink involves a lot of people. It really doesn't have to in order to have leverage in political terms.

              .The neocons were a small group of individuals, including  Paul Wolfowitz, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle and Paul Bremer. While not identifying as neoconservatives, senior officials Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld listened closely to neoconservative advisers regarding foreign policy, especially the defense of Israel and the promotion of American influence in the Middle East. 
              They were able to convince the UN that we should go to war because Saddam Hussein had WMDs. They showed artist renderings of what they looked like. They were not even photographs.  But it was enough to get us into a 20 year war.

              The Freedom Caucus is a relatively small group, but they have a lot of power when they can decide who becomes the speaker of the house.

              But anyway, I understand your sentiments and thanks for talking down to me.  That is exactly the tone of voice I get from your comments to me.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image89
                Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

                "Is it appropriate to assign derogatory labels to any group? For instance, I could use the term "Bidunces" for Biden supporters, but wouldn't this be an instance of participating in the labeling and demeaning of others?"

                PP statement -  Didn't you just assign groupthink to anti-Trumpers, isn't that demeaning, isn't TDS demeaning, libtard, commie socialist.  They are all demeaning.?

                My context shares that sentiment. I clearly was offering an example of labeling and demeaning others. I have never used the words libtard, commie socialist, or TDS on any chat forum.   

                "I see conservatives in these forums as self-aggrandizing and self-righteous without realizing they are being hypocritical."

                As I have shared, conservatives, in my view, tend to have characteristics that could be seen as self-righteous, and prideful due to using common sense. I see them as more apt to be independent in their thought process. Hey, that is just my view...

                "Who cares? My point is the proud boys and oath keepers were all influenced by Trump and were practicing groupthink.."

                And my point is that both are groups that share ideologies. However, these groups should not be lumped in with all conservatives or Republicans. Again, we are individuals with varying ideologies.

                "That's important for you, but not for those of us who are not in denial of the facts we have witnessed."

                I have asked ECO as well as others here --- please offer me one piece of evidence that could be used in a court of law.  So, far no takers. Yes, there have been many allegations, and views shared, but no real plausible evidence that might stand up before a judge.
                '
                I totally understand your displeasure with all that we have needed to witness in regard to Trump's various indictments. And yes, it is all disturbing allegations. I do feel these trials will give him a final chance to defend himself and end this ongoing turmoil once and for all.

                I have shared that I hoped we as a nation would be given two new candidates. I think this alone could help us all move on or at least make efforts to move on.  All of this political turmoil is taking us in the wrong direction.

  2. Sharlee01 profile image89
    Sharlee01posted 10 months ago

    To anyone who wants to have a go at this excerpt from the link/article

    "When delving into the perplexing world of politics and the enigmatic figure of Donald Trump, we often encounter a peculiar phenomenon amongst his supporters: a staunch refusal to accept any criminal allegation or felony charge against him, no matter how compelling the evidence."

    What concrete proof exists that could withstand legal scrutiny to establish Trump's guilt? Let's be mindful that hearsay and secondhand information don't hold up in a courtroom. So, where is this compelling evidence?

    Up until now, I haven't come across any substantial evidence. Nevertheless, the author of this article insists that I should "accept criminal allegations" and asserts the presence of compelling proof. However, amidst all the rhetoric, the author fails to present any of this compelling evidence. So, who is genuinely grappling with what he labels a phenomenon?

    1. peoplepower73 profile image83
      peoplepower73posted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Sharlee:  I'm going to keep this simple.  When it comes to Trump, your glass is half full and mine is half empty.  You see him from your positive aspects of him.  I see him from his negative aspects of him. Just like you see Biden from his negative aspects. I see Biden from his positive aspect of him.  The difference is that you justify your negative aspect of him by claiming that you have studied him for years.  Where is your evidence that you have done that?

      What the author is saying is that Trumpers, including himself are in denial of any wrong doings because it would make them feel bad if they accepted him for what he is. Therefore, it is easier for them to be in denial and feel good about him.

      1. Sharlee01 profile image89
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        "Sharlee:  I'm going to keep this simple.  When it comes to Trump, your glass is half full and mine is half empty. "

        This is 100% true...

        "  The difference is that you justify your negative aspect of him by claiming that you have studied him for years.  Where is your evidence that you have done that?"

        I actually put together an extensive Hubpage to document my research before the 2020 election, titled "Say It Ain't So Joe" (updated in 2022). Whenever I share my thoughts on President Biden, I ensure that I've done my due diligence by clearly distinguishing between facts and opinions, often providing supporting sources.

        Having closely observed his 50-year history in Washington, it's remarkably straightforward to research the track record of politicians we've elected to represent us.

        I make it a personal commitment to thoroughly research candidates in every election where I exercise my voting privilege.

        I believe the article was poorly executed and seemed to contain a lot of unsubstantiated claims. In my view, the author talks about evidence but fails to provide any. I frown upon anyone who lumps people together, similar to Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" remark.

        For me, it's not about denial; it's about exercising clear, common sense and refraining from passing judgment on anyone until sufficient evidence of wrongdoing is presented. I'm proud to say that I will never prematurely label someone as guilty without a fair examination of the evidence.

        It's not a case of me being in denial; it's not a perspective I hold to see the glass as half-empty. That, I must admit, seems to be your viewpoint.

 
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