Is condemnation of Israel fair in relative terms?
I don't defend every action Israel takes but I also see them as the lesser evil to Hamas. It is also rather unfair that Israel are expected to abide by all international laws despite the fact that their enemy does not. So why are the fingers always pointed at Israel and rarely, if ever at the terrorist regime that controls the Gaza strip?
1. Israel is expected to fight fair as it must protect the reputation of western allies.
2. In such a one-sided war in terms of military capability, people sympathize with the underdog, even if they are terrorists.
3. For some reason, people, including the media value the lives of Palestinian civilians over those of Israeli civilians.
4. The unique geographical logistics make Israel out to be anti-humanitarian because of the actions they made, despite the likelihood that most other nations would have taken the same action if in the same position.
I understand that Israel are in more of a position to change the current circumstances than their enemy, but it is unlikely that Israel can change their enemy's mentality which inclines to want the destruction of Israel. However for anyone who condemns Israel I would like you to tell us what you think they should do to resolve the crisis. This should be something realistic.No, that's not the reason. The reason is that such things as using white phosphorus in populous areas are illegal. All countries are expected to comply and all countries are censured if they do not.
There's some truth in that, just as there's some truth in the saying 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'. Who would be a terrorist if he could be a general in charge of a huge military machine? People do what they have to. Young men with any spirit will not accept incarceration in their own country. Would you?
Given that the death ratio is about 200 to 1 (not counting the disease and malnutrition cases, I simply don't understand on what you base your assertion.
And getting more 'unique' by the day, thanks to the illegal expansion by annexation of Palestinian land.
Israel's actions continually change their enemy's mentality. They harden it. They radicalise it. The current Israeli administration has turned the clock back years. And now they've gained a new enemy, in Turkey.
Consider Ireland. When UK was under the hard nosed 'we do not talk to terrorists' Thatcher regime, it just got worse and worse. More bombs, deaths, maimings, lynchings. When we finally got rid of her, and her successor John Major started talks, we finally got a peace process. It was halting progress, but it gradually took hold. Talk. There is no other way.It isn't Israel that radicalizes those young men...
I think we all know very well what radicalizes those palistinians.I notice that the 'reply' function makes a mess of a multiple quote message!
Anyway, let's not oversimplify things. I'm well aware that there are radical clerics and hardened terrorists all too ready to find recruits, but I'm also aware of the circumstances and conditions that obtain in Gaza, thanks to the blockade, and especially in the aftermath of the last major invasion.
Current Israeli policy is not working. That suggests to any reasonable person that change is better than more of the same, no?Israel has changed many times and surrendered much to Palistine, yet it is never enough. I am tired oif Israel changing... how about the Palistinians change this time.
I am tired of hearing the victim card thrown around for a bunch of people who when offered a chance for real peace, spit in the face of Israel.
How much land does Israel need to cede, and how many times do they to be bombed, in order to be able to seal the borders and screen what and who comes in. .I won't talk history with you because I don't recognise your version of it and do not have the time or inclination to seek out the references I'd need.
You may be tired of Israel changing. But the last change was Binyamin Netanyahu's (re)accession, and that was a change for the worse.
The present situation is untenable. The small flotilla tactic, now established, will not stop. Israel will become more and more of a pariah in the eyes of the World, <i>unless</i> they lift the blockade.
Your (apparent) option leads nowhere, except possibly to a massacre in Gaza, which you might hail as a victory, but which would be the end of Israel as we know it. Nobody wants that, I hope?lolololol
Yes... your time...
lololololololol
The next lil floatilla on it's way ought to be interesting...
I hope Turkey's navy shows up... We'll see who is funny.You have no convincing answers, so you revert to rudeness? Your choice, I suppose.
I am simply making sure I understand...?
Your time is the reason for your rluctance, and not a history peppered full of Islamic violence against Jews and Israel.
So?... your time... ya.
I have stated plainly why Israel is where it is... and why it was given back to them after decades of ignoring the Balfur Declaration... I have stated openly and clearly of what I KNOW the muslims in WWII lead by Amin Al'Husseini did... the slaughters they committed in the assistance of the NAZIs and the erridication of the Jews... I have spoken openly of the fervent Islamic desire throughout the entire history of the region to wipe the Jews fromt her earth... (and so haven't the Muslims by the way)...
I have said all this OPENLY and no one has refuted it... THEY have just IGNORED IT.
So?... don't bother wasting your time para... ha yeah right... your time.
Para - Do you think that if Israel removed the blockade, even by just allowing Gaza to have free movement in and out of 'their own' stretch of water, that would change the attitude of Hamas?
I recognize the need for some sort of goodwill gesture on Israel's part to begin a process of negotiation, but I certainly have suspicions about what Hamas would bring into the Gaza Strip had they the opportunity.If you can give good reason for putting the words 'their own' in quotes (because to do so implies that you think 'their own' coastline is not their own, but belongs to Israel), then I might take you seriously as someone interested in finding a solution.
Till then, no, I think you are not interested in fairness.Your post is an example of the sort of problem one can have in negotiating with people who are not only unwilling to see any other perspective than their own, but also insist on interpreting the worst meaning from what the 'bad guy' says.
Officially and unofficially the stretch of water from the coastline of Gaza does not belong to and is not controlled by Hamas. I put it in quotation marks because it is not their own, although perhaps it should be.
Now you can go ahead and deliberately misinterpret something else I said, or you can try to answer the question you were clearly unable to answer in the first place.
- Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
0All Palestine has to do is stop lobbing rockets into Israel and condemn the terrorist acts like using ships for anti-Israel activism and assaults instead of humanitarian aid.
Israel isn't the only one with responsibility to do something about this issue.You sound like you have spent a lot of time in the region Brenda. How long did you live there for?
A country which elects a known terrorist organization for thier govt. .. well it sort of speaks for itself.
TMMason - I don't want to communicate with you any more. I see you as a lost cause.
Don't worry para...
I understand how painful the truth of things can be.
Especially when your, as all the leftys and Muslims have been, brought up on twisted revisionist histories, designed to propagate the ideologies of the loosers and enemies of the correct.
Hasn't it already been several times?
New York, May 20 (DPA) The United Nations said Thursday that findings about North Korea's sinking of a South Korean naval ship are 'troubling', but it refused to be drawn into the brewing crisis that could break out into open conflict.
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said that the sinking of the Cheonan naval ship allegedly by a North Korea torpedo in March, killing 46 South Korean sailors, was 'troubling'.
Evedently not as quickly as they condemned Israel
The military occupation of Gaza has been gong on since 1947.....
They break International Law on a daily basis...It's not so much a hasty condemnation as it is...what...AGAIN??
And when is something going to be done about it??
Is the whole world afraid of Israel?
And they are taking our money to do it. That's what GALLS me.
Don't any of you righties let me EVER hear you complain about single moms!
They could never spend 7 million a day, yet you give it to Israel, whose Jewish citizens live better than 90% of us.
Just where are the Palestinians supposed to go when all their land has been stolen?
And why are we on the side of the thiefs?I'm sorry lovemychris, but how exactly did you come to own whatever land you currently occupy? Tell me again, were native Americans booted off their land of were they not?
The absolute cheek to call Israel thieves! I suppose now you'll come out with some dribble like 'that was a long time ago'. Well that doesn't cut it.
Gee Iwonder why Ismaists in turkey would supprt a terrorist linked floatilla. Turkey is just sooo secular... right?
Turkey's Islamist-rooted ruling party has dramatically upped the stakes in its showdown with the secularist establishment by detaining more than 50 current and former military commanders.
For decades, the military has been considered the guardian of the secular order established by the republic founder and revered army officer, Mustafa Kemal. The first president of Turkey is known throughout the country simply as Ataturk, or "Father of the Turks," and his adherents as "Kemalists."
On February 22, the long-established order suffered a significant blow when 21 generals were detained, including former navy chief Admiral Ozden Ornek, former air force chief General Ibrahim Firtina, and former 1st Army commander General Ergin Saygun. Most of the others detained were colonels.
The detentions are by far the most sensational single event in the government's investigation of the "Ergenekon" network, an alleged gang of top military officials who sought for decades to act as a shadow government and determine the country's political course.
According to Turkish press reports, the new round of detentions may be linked to a plan by Ergenekon members to carry out a military coup against the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) in 2003.
The plot for the coup, code-named "Balyoz" (Sledgehammer), allegedly involved plans to spark unrest by bombing two major mosques in Istanbul and staging an assault on a military museum by attackers disguised as Islamic fundamentalists.
'Uncharted Territory'
The detentions have electrified Turkey as the most sweeping move to date by the Islamist-rooted AKP to redefine the Turkish republic by challenging the traditional dominance of the military as its protector.
That protection to date has included the military's toppling of four governments since 1960 in the name of safeguarding the republic's Kemalist secular identity. Ozgur Ogrit, a correspondent for "Hurriyet Daily News" in Istanbul, says it is impossible to predict what will happen next.
"This is uncharted territory for Turkey because, since last month, everyday you see the same phrase in the headlines: for the first time in Turkey, for the first time in republican history, for the first time this general came to give testimony, or this general was arrested, or a secret room of the military was inspected," Ogrit says. "I don't think anyone in Turkey can tell you where we are going to go from here."
Dividing Turkey
The Ergenekon investigation, launched in 2007, is causing huge divisions within Turkey as the pro-AKP and pro-Kemalist camps have squared off in political and media circles.
The division has equally reached into the once solidly Kemalist bastions of the military, judiciary, and bureaucracy -- the three legs of the traditional Turkish state -- making it still more impossible to predict how the showdown will end.
http://www.rferl.org/content/Detention_ … 66079.html
I don't know where this will end... but if it ends with the Islamists in charge the world is in trouble.
And then there is this...
Turkish colonel arrested in anti-government plotFont Size: Larger|Smaller
Friday, April 30, 2010
ISTANBUL - Daily News with wires
A Turkish colonel was arrested and sent to prison Friday for anti-government activities following a court appearance at the Istanbul courthouse in the city’s Beşiktaş district.
Col. Dursun Çiçek is alleged to have attached his signature to the “Action Plan for the Fight against Fundamentalism,” a document detailing anti-government plans.
The colonel was accompanied to court by his daughter, İrem Çiçek, who is also serving as his lawyer.
The “action plan,” which was brought to light by daily Taraf, includes strategies to end both Justice and Development Party, or AKP, rule and the activities of the Fethullah Gülen community, a religious group alleged to have links to the government.
Along with Çiçek, the indictment accepted by the court also involves former Istanbul Mayor Bedrettin Dalan. The accused face sentences of seven and a half years to life in prison for “being members of an illegal organization” and “attempting to destroy the government of the Turkish Republic through violence and force.”
Orders have been issued to arrest Dalan, who is currently abroad, as soon as he re-enters the country.
Prosecutors are meanwhile requesting that the case be merged with the main Ergenekon trial, which began in June 2007 and led to scores of arrests. Nearly 200 journalists, writers, military personnel, gang leaders, scholars, businesspeople and politicians have been detained in what has become a terror investigation to stop an alleged ultranationalist gang known as Ergenekon that is accused of planning to topple the government by fomenting societal chaos.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? … 2010-04-30
Gee?... alot happening in Turkey... seems to me there may be some in the Govt. sympathetic to the destroy Israel mentallity after all.Let's look at relative terms. In 2008, when the rocket attacks on Israel were at their peak, a total of 8 Israeli civilians were killed by those attacks.
In the reprisal 'war', 1417 were killed in Gaza of those 926 were civilians. In that war 15,000 homes were destroyed or damaged, but among the prohibited items today is concrete. How can Gaza rebuild thier homes? - there are no forests in Gaza to harvest timber.
I am loking for casualty reports of Israeli forces - my memory is that fewer than 6 Israeli soldiers died in a conflict where they killed fourteen hundred in Gaza, the majority (even by Israeli accounts) civilian.
Israel keeps trying to play the victim - but the numbers don't add up. They are the aggressor - the bully - the Nazi - in the current conflict. A 2-state solution is not a fascist Isreal and a Gaza gulag under the heel of the tyrant."1417 were killed in Gaza of those 926 were civilians. "
That is because Hamas hides behind civilians, Doug... thats the way they operate. Islamic doctrine states all those who die in Jihad, regardless of if they are willing participants, or not, nor wether or not they are civillians or military, are alloted instant reward in the shade of the sword of allah.
Just like Islam allows for suicide "martyrs" bombers, it allows for cowards to kill innocents in jihad.
I have really good source material if you would like to know some... explains it really nicely.
Oh... and I still love the the, "they didn't kill as many, so it isn't fair." mentallity.
Thats War, you start it, be prepared to own it. All those civillians seem pretty into the war in all the video I see.
Too bad.If by "hides behind civilians" you mean happens to occupy nearby areas sometimes, then you're definitely correct. But that shouldn't really be surprising given the incredibly high population density of Gaza (which is of course related to the inability of the population to leave). Relatedly, simply saying "they hide behind civilians" does not explain a death rate of nearly two to one civilian to combatant. Nor does it explain the shelling of UNRWA headquarters, nor that the assault "damaged or destroyed tens of thousands of homes, 15 of Gaza’s 27 hospitals and 43 of its 110 primary health care facilities, 800 water wells, 186 greenhouses, and nearly all of its 10,000 family farms; leaving 50,000 homeless, 400,000-500,000 without running water, one million without electricity, and resulting in acute food shortages."
You have a really amusing understanding of the facts; you seem to think that this war was started by the Palestinians. You are, of course, aware that the ceasefire which ended shortly before the opening of the war was violated by both sides, but first by Israel. I'm sure you are also aware that Hamas was willing to renew the ceasefire if Israel was willing to abide by its terms. Clearly, Israel preferred terrorism to peace, for what else to you call a war which was clearly fought with the primary intent of breaking the populations will to fight."clearly fought with the primary intent of breaking the populations will to fight"
Exactly! Well said Strophios!, And the 'war' continues with the intent of inflicting as much misery as possible on the Pallistinian people. And it's sooooo STUPID and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE! Israel is breeding hardened terrorists in Gaza with their policies.No Stro... if I had meant that... I would have said ithat.... please do not attempt to translate my intent, from my words.
I will take care of saying what I mean.
And I mean, hide behind... within,... among... dressed as... CIVILLIANS.
Islam condones it and they, Hamas and other Muslim Terrorist organiztions, use the tactic, along with many other cowardly tactics which I do not believe the Geneva Convention condones... but Islam does condone them.
So I do not blame Israel for any of thier actions... they are defending thier people in region which hates them for thier very existence.
And they OWN the news!
"For example, New York Times writer Isabel Kershner reported on June 1 that "Despite sporadic rocket fire from the Palestinian territory against southern Israel, Israel says it allows enough basic supplies through border crossings to avoid an acute humanitarian crisis."
In fact, for many months, numerous human rights and aid organizations have reported a grave, growing crisis, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs saying on May 18 that:
"As a consequence of Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip, 98 percent of industrial operations have been shut down since 2007 and there are acute shortages of fuel, cash, cooking gas and other basic supplies....Water-related health problems are widespread (after Cast Lead) destroyed water and sanitation infrastructure, including reservoirs, wells, and thousands of kilometres of piping...."
Extreme shortages of everything exist. Vital to life essentials are lacking. Malnutrition is chronic. Illnesses and diseases go untreated for lack of medicines and supplies. Construction materials are prohibited, preventing rebuilding, and poverty and unemployment levels are extremely high among a population desperate for help - facts never reported by the US media."
--Stephen Lendman
CNN: reports were similar, leaving viewers to believe the activists were terrorists, Israel merely responding in self-defense - outrageous disinformation typical of CNN and the other networks.
And of course Fox:
Bill O'Reilly aired Israeli video showing "its troops were attacked." Sean Hannity complained about the Obama administration's "lack of support" for Israel. Glenn Beck asked if "anyone questioned the hatred that socialists have for Israel or the Jews?"
Can you belive that last statement? That guy ought to be hung up by his b.....ig mouth.
And Russsssshhhhhhh:
Rush Limbaugh raged against Obama for having "strong personal and political ties to anti-Israeli leftists"....
Can't you feel the love?
OHHH but that's right....they don't hate!! Only socialists hate.
These are God's People.
Real Americans.
And the Chosen.
Because their god is the devil. That is my opinion.
"It's a grand old flag it's a high flying flag and forever in peace may she wave."......
Nice song, means doodly squat." 'anyone questioned the hatred that socialists have for Israel or the Jews?'
Can you belive that last statement? That guy ought to be hung up by his b.....ig mouth."
Yes the Socailists, Chrs... as in the NAZIs... remember them.
They did the whole cooking the Jews thing in the 20th century.
Remember?...
They held some sort of record, till the commie twins, "Uncle Joe" Stalin and Chairman Mao, two of the left's most celebrated heros, out-did them in thier grisly ways of slaughter.
I wonder what the Anti-semetic left has in for us this century?...
"Dubai/Cairo: According to a report in The Guardian, an Algerian activist, who gave her name as Sabrina, revealed that Israeli troops pointed their gun at a one-year-old Turkish child in front of his parents to force the captain of the Mavi Marmara to stop sailing."
Anyone here have a one year old?
Ever had a one year old?
I would never recover from this: the sheer terror.
Oh but hey--it's nothing! Come ON! Our Congress tells us it was all justified!
I'm going to dribble my lips now and drool in a corner....that's how much sense this world makes to me.What in the *ELL is a one year old child doing on a ship that is sailing for the express stated purpose of breaking a military blockade!!?? One that carries people stupid enough to stage an attack on an armed military occupying force? Should have simply shot the parents.
In any case, "facts" that have been "revealed" by an activist usually bear little relation to the truth.This came from someone who was on the ship...maybe you should listen to them instead of Israeli propaganda.
Fact: it was International waters, Israel had no jurisdiction. They are not above the law, although they do get away with breaking it DAILY.
They get special treatment...why?Being an activist does not give one the right to intentionally expose a 1 year old child to extreme danger. These people INTENDED, by their own admission, to break a military blockade. They came prepared for violence, and admit they started it. What kind of sadistic idiot would include their infant in the process? The only answer I can think of is a terrorist - everyone's life is expendable. International waters or not, no jurisdiction or not, there is NO excuse for bringing such a child on such a mission.
HUBBERS
FOR STARTERS, SIMPLY STOP FOREIGN AID PAYMENTS TO HAMAS.
Israel is our ally,so why do we support Hamas ( a terrorist group )with foreign aid of $ millions of dollars.
Continue to fire the rockets, we will cut off all aid.
WAKE UP AMERICA !Israel is your ally, not mine.
I don't appreciate one of my citizens being shot in the head 4 times by an IDF soldier.
We support Hamas? I thought we deemed them a terrorist organization? Which I agree with. They are Mossad--quite the terrorists imo.
Continue the illegal settlements...cut off the 7 mil a day+ weapons+control of our gvt.
Wake up yourself...Israel doesn't give a dam about you.
Thanks Barry. I've been travelling for the last few days so haven't had a chance to add anything. But I note the apologists for lethal criminality continue to make fools of themselves by defending the indefensible.
Hamas is a duly elected Democratic Government the fact that others diagreed with this is irrelevent I diagreed with the election of
George W. BushFor you to equate G.W.Bush to Hamas, is a joke.
Thier election of Hamas just proves they, those poor civillians, are more than up for and into this war. Thier will never be peace in Israel because of Islam.
That is a simple and inesapable fact. That no leant leftist liberal prgressive BS hyperbolic spin, nor Islamic propaganda, can change.
LOL... man, this thread gets funnier by the day...
"Thier will never be peace in Israel because of Islam. "
TMMason wrote. Sometimes it takes days to get to the truth. Reverse the statement to find the intent. I interpret it to be- "For there to be peace in Israel - you must eliminate Islam."
Which validates the argument that the defense of Israel and the defense of their brutality in the Gaza is religous - the wingnuts see this as a Judeo-christian war against Islam. (This is the same viewpoint-in-reverse that he Islamic wingnuts have.) A modern version of the Crusades will be catastrophic. Islam and most who follow it - are peaceful. Likewise Christianity. If we let this become a global religous war where the multitudes on both sides endorse mutual genocide, the death toll could be comparable to WWII.
The Pallistinian conflict is the flash point of that conflict in the Arab world. Solve that and the biggest argument in the moslem-extremist side goes away. History will not judge what we do in religous terms- they will look at the geopolitical folly of escalating a conflict by tolerating the human suffering in Gaza - which Israel is at fault for inflicting.Yes, UW.
I have met palistinian Christians and they do not want Islam in charge.
So whats your point.
That you can magically change Islamic doctriine through sheer force of will?.... Wonder twin powers activate!....
It isn't going to happen. The Jews are a corruption upon the earth and Muslims cannot abide by the existence of Israel.
Thats a fact... it is the hatred perpetuated by Islam against Israel, Jews and the world of non-believers which is TRUE cause of all the conflict in the Mid East.
Momo's gift to the world... perpetual Holy War,
"Jihad".
Funny--Even "The Hitler of our time" (according to Michael Savage), Ahmadinijad, says he has nothing against the Jewish people--he has a problem with the Zionist regime.
Can you understand that?
Same way as you hate Obama....he hates them.
You don't hate all Americans do you, just cause you dislike Obama?
NO-so why do you put that on everyone who dislikes the Likud Hard-Line Zio-Con party?
THEY are the hindrance to peace..they don't want it! And they will do anything to keep this conflict going...surely you can see that they profit much more than the Palestinians? They practically have ALL of Palestine by now. Now they are gunning for East Jerusalem--total Israel control. Greater Israel...maybe they want Iran as part of it too? Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran?
Look at this very interesting take from a blogger on David Icke Forums:
"Most people have by now been sufficiently programmed to believe that "Islamic terrorists" wish to destroy Israel, but are reluctant to constate that Israel would never have attained its dominant position in the Middle East without an ongoing "terrorist threat" to its existence. In short, Israel needs terrorism.
The problem of course is that a real war with a real threat is not desirable because of the unpredictability of the outcome. So, in the case of Israel, when it has utterly destroyed the real threat, a more manageable and predictable 'homegrown' threat must be maintained. The Israeli government, with its complete control of the lives of not only the Palestinian people but also that of the Israeli people, has all of the means to stage-manage the no-longer-existent "Palestinian terrorist threat to its existence", and it does so with great skill, not least because of the significant control that is exerted over the mainstream media"
And from my local blog:
"George Mitchell, the so-called peace negotiator, has never been to the Gaza strip and has never talked with Hamas — even though Hamas has said that it would sign a peace treaty with Israel once a two state solution had been worked out. Israel does not want to enter that process because Israel likes the status quo and befuddling people like you with nonsense about its security. Proof of this — Israel did not build a wall around Israel."
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