The Israeli occupation and brutal military rule of Palestinian land is illegal. That's the law!!!
The West Bank is not 'disputed' territory. It belongs to the Palestinians. That's the law!!
The Israeli settlements are illegal, The Israeli government breach the Geneva Convention because they have conducted ethnic cleansing and transplanted their own people on Palestinian land. That's the law!!
They have breached the Hague Resolutions by conducting 'pillage' by stealing natural resources of stolen land. That's the law!!
Numerous UN resolutions, annual votes by the General Assembly of the UN have consistently stated the same reality. Israel must retreat to the pre-1967 borders. That's the law!!
They are also in defiance of the International Court of Justice that states that their wall is illegal. It's not a fence, it's not a separation barrier. It's not to stop suicide bombers because it has miles of gaps right now as I write. It's a land grab and it's illegal. That's the law!!!
So!! Why is the United Nations not taking action against Israel?
Hey Shim. Howzit goin'?
The most obvious answer to your question, as least since 2002, is known as the Negroponte Doctrine. Although an official text of this policy has never been published, it is generally believed to declare that the United States will oppose UN Security Council resolutions concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that condemn Israel without also condemning terrorist groups by including
* A strong and explicit condemnation of all terrorism and incitement to terrorism;
* A condemnation by name of the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade, Islamic Jihad, and Hamas groups that have claimed responsibility for suicide attacks on Israel;
* An appeal to all parties for a political settlement of the crisis; and
* A demand for improvement of the security situation as a condition for any call for a withdrawal of Israeli armed forces to positions they held before the September 2000 start of the Second intifada.
This is a politically created situation so the UN won't touch it.
Hello?! God isn't concerned with your feeble interpretation of the law. Before history is over, Israel will back to the original borders when God gave them the land by tribes after the Exodus. The West Bank and Golan Heights are included.
Now, if you don't know that, you are on a serious learning curve. Time will tell.
Look at the member of UN Security Council. The members can vote to impose sanctions but there must be some kind of positive benefits for them that is why they are not doing it. It is always "what is at stake".
I hope to be joing the Air Flotilla to Ben Gurion tomorrow. Here is the website with a Twitter feed included. http://welcometopalestine.info/
That'll keep folks up to date.
Stay in Scotland and do some good. Why get mixed up with the stinky end of something you don't understand or have a clear view of? Find a clean spot. The Lord is coming back and every knee will bow. There will be no dispute.
Be wise. Your most important cause is in your own community. Meet that need.
Palestine is our community.
Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. No god in their right mind supports what Bibi is doing.
This line is in the Bible: Beware of Dogs.
You took one line out of context from the Bible and that is supposed to just shake us up? Well I suppose I should be happy you picked up a Bible.
As all this is pointing up the progressives are becoming less wary of allowing their Antisemitism to hang out in the open. I have known of this for years but I am glad to see it because now they can't lie about it anymore.
I have complete understanding WD Curry and a crystal clear view of the issues.
So far, you have exhibited zero understanding aside from irrelevant biblical pronunciations. So unless you want to get serious on this major political and humanitarian crisis please don't waste my time with religious balderdash
Hello Shin.....If you do go ! Keep well and deliver my good wishes to all.
Just been on the link .I am so furious .. What kind of cowards are these Israelis ? How dare they ! Imprisoning 60 year old Women today from Manchester and the rest of the world! Listen If my friends ,who were Holocaust survivers, were there now they would be standing alongside the Palestinians and proudly so . Good Journey .
I got deported almost immediately after landing. I've posted a Blog on Facebook about my brief visit to Israel.
http://www.facebook.com/notes/shin-kick … 9415023343
Here are some videos about the Scots and English who took part.
Just for the record. I got barred for 3 days from this, my own thread, by somebody here. I think I know who it was but I won't hold grudges. Why?
Because I love freedom and expression, that's why!!!!
But in case I get into trouble again, I'll quote the late , great Edward Said. Because he summed up the Palestinian issue better than anyone back in 2003.
"What is so tremendously hypocritical about the official US position is that literally everything that Powell has accused the Iraqis Ba'athists of, has been the stock and trade of every Israeli government since 1948 and at no time so flagrantly since the occupation of 1967.
assaults against civilians with missiles, helicopters and jet fighters,
the annexation of territory,
the transportation of civilians from one place to another for the purpose of imprisonment,
mass killing as in Qana, Jenin, Sabra and Chatila to mention only the most obvious,
the denial of rights to:
free passage and unimpeded civilian movement,
use of civilians for human shields,
punishment of families,
house demolitions on a mass scale,
destruction of agricultural land,
expropriation of water,
attacks on hospitals, medical workers and ambulances,
the killing of UN personnel .......
............ to name only the most outrageous abuses".
(Edward Said at the University of California Berkeley 2003)
So let's get hypothetical and say Iran nukes Israel out of existence.
Will you be just as outraged that they committed genocide against the Jews?
I only bring that up because every other nation in the region wants to do just that and has stated so since long before any illegal settlements.
Complete nonsense. Provide your evidence for that outrageous statement
Let's see....what do Syria Lebanon Egypt and Iran have in common?
A complete hared of Israel and stated goal of ridding the Middle east of them. Where have you been?
This is why you have statements from Benjamin Netanyahu such as if their enemies disarm there would be peace but if Israel disarms there would be no Israel.
You behave as though they are surrounded by lands populated by cute and fuzzy bunnies looking for a carrot.
In case you are really unaware of the enemies Israel has had for thousands of years pick up a Bible.
Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt!!!!
Sorry if you missed that JS ,
After all , it was only 33 years ago.
Lebanon was devastated by Israeli atrocities on many occasions including 20,000 slaughtered in 1982. It's never been a serious threat to Israel. Far too weak.
Syria has not attacked Israel since 1973 and has never tried since then despite the illegal Israeli annexation of their land in the Golan which is against international law.
Iran hasn't attacked another country for over 300 years, unlike Israel, which has done so on several occasions.
Incidentally, Israel supplied arms to Iran in the latter's war against Iraq 1980-88. Plus also Iran supplied intelligence to the USA in the fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2002. These are facts!!
The Bible has no relevance. This is politics. PICK UP A LAW BOOK
Sure it has relevance. Where do you think is outlined what was their original lands?
You know that i am a Christian so you know how I believe the Bible came to be.
I think it would be more entertaining, which was what you were after, if you told us who YOU think wrote it.
Funny--you degrade me for believing 9/11 was an inside job....but you can believe a woman was impregnated by a spirit....and no one laughs.
The scribes of the time-the only ones who were educated in the art of writing (priests) and indoctrinating the gullible which leads us straight to you........
It doesn't matter who wrote it. Hans Christian Andersen for all I care. It has no relevance. The Bible has no relevance in international law in defining geographical borders.
So please stop wasting my time JS, speak to me rationally on what is legal or go away and play with your own fuzzy bunnies.
Why is it when a progressive hears something he doesn't like he demands proof instead of thinking about it?
"Just for the record. I got barred for 3 days from this, my own thread, by somebody here. I think I know who it was but I won't hold grudges."
Don't know is you are trying to pin that on me but I am innocent. That sort of thing is a game the liberals play.
Really? With all the things you say---how many times have you been banned?
Never. What do you think I should have been banned for?
Why was shinkicker? Isn't his speech free?
Yes it is and why in the whatever am I supposed to know how he got banned. For all anyone knows you did it to stir up chaos.
Political Correctness. You can't criticize Israel without being obliterated.
What? Geez kid you really need to get some clear fresh air.
"Progressives equally hate the US and Israel."
Can't I love my country and criticize what Israel is doing? Or must I agree with what Israel is doing in order to love my country?
It is politically incorrect to criticize Israel, and I object.
I am telling you what the words I am seeing written tell me.
Yes you can love your country and criticize Israel.
See is I disagree with the ideology of the argument then things start getting read into my responses which aren't there.
You want to be hated? politically disagree with Barack Obama.
You get called a racist just for that alone even though what you are disagreeing about has nothing to do with racism. Then you are asked to prove that. Then you are called a Birther. Then they find out you are a Christian and wow are you in for it then!
You get regional slurs and mental insults. All this from the fols who only want fairness and polite speech.'Progressive liberals are hands down the most hateful speaking folk I have ever dealt with.
Did you cuss someone out or get jiggy? I've been kicked off, but it was calculated for when I didn't have time to fool with it. I was experimenting. It has been awhile.
Actually, I have been asked to tone it down by some of my associates. Most of this tripe isn't appropriate for professionals. So, one last time. The so called, misnomered Palestinians will get a homeland when their Arab brothers learn to share.
Their cause will be bogus tomorrow, however I will no longer discus inflammatory issues with demonic entities claiming noble positions. I need my pay check.
They're already on their Homeland. They don't need to go anywhere.
Homeland? They don't know where it is. They settled in a vacated, desolate land. There was no on there to keep them moving on down the road. Time will tell. C-Ya!
Don't you just love how it matters not one whit at all the peril that Israel is in they should just stand still and take the Holocaust right up the butt again!
These people are nuts!
No Chris. I don't think so :-)
QUOTE "Why is it when a progressive hears something he doesn't like he demands proof instead of thinking about it?" (JSChams)
What a totally ridiculous assertion!!!
Words fail me.
Unless thoughts, ideas, notions, inclinations, attitudes, attributions and any creative process of the imagination can trump proof, facts, evidence, truth and reality.
As if mere thought can conquer the legal findings of the United Nations, the International Court of Justice, as if simple notions negates the evidence of Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, The Red Cross and B'Tselem among many countless other individual eye-witness accounts of Israeli atrocities.
What I think would be funny is if the descendants of the tribes that occupied the lands of Israel before the Jewish people, who were slaughtered and nigh on exterminated by them made a claim to Israel that predates the Jewish one, but I entirely agree, the state of Israel should return to it's original borders and stick to them, they have no right legally or morally to hold the land they do and their expansionism has already cost millions of lives.
That could happen in every country. Maybe the Etruscans will make a claim to Italy, and the Macedonians for Greece (oops!).
Millions of lives? Are you talking about Darfur?
That's a very good question.
I'm sure you have heard of The Sampson Option--the threat of nuclear destruction. Could that be it?
The money hold? Or the blackmail hold? They DO have a spy network bigger in size than the Vatican!(google it....I can't)
It just boggles the mind.
For some reason, they are above the Law, and that is questionable.....Is the whole world afraid of them? Are they so powerful no one can touch them?
I don't get it.
So, I am forced to accept this in my name?
WE are the ones supporting terrorists, and I want it to stop.
The 1947 UN partition plan seemed ridiculous anyway. They gave the Jewish state the land around the outside and left the Palistinian state in its center. Doesn't make sense.
U.S. taxpayers give Israel an average of $7 million per day, and since its creation have given more U.S. funds to Israel than to any other nation. As Americans learn about how Israel is using our tax dollars, many are calling for an end to this expenditure.
And since this is an ethnically preferential state and the U.S. is quite the opposite, I don't understand why we support them.
The UN is an American toy to play with when necessary. Israel and the US have common and interdependent interests at stake that explains the non interventionism.
The U.S is Israel-USrael. ! It was Given unlawfully. It wasn't ours to give . .
I think the U.N. gave it, not the U.S.
Correct jandee. The British colonial masters gave it away, as if they owned it. Imperialism in one of its most ruthless form
It turns out that everything, we are finding out these days, is controlled by the lawless Western oligarchies.
I hope everyone knows and understands that prior to the six day war there was no such thing as a Palestinian. And have we so soon forgot what has been done to Israel and the rest of the world by Palestinian terrorist organizations.
Have you ever read the true story of what happened when Israel first became a nation.
Before the 1967 war the territory now claimed by the Palestinians was owned or controlled by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. It is a ploy by the Arabs in the area who incidentally hate Christians and Jews. Their goal if you like it or not is to destroy Israel. And after that they are coming after the USA.
I was there when the suicide bombers were blowing up buses in Israel. The Arabs there raise their young boys with the ideal of giving their lives for the cause.
I have been on top of the US Embassy in Israel and watched thousands of men, women, and children not far away burning the flags of the US and Israel and screaming for our blood. They want to destroy Israel but they also want to destroy the USA.
How soon we forget that beautiful September morning in 2001 when we watched as planes flew into buildings. Believe me people they hate us and would kill us any way they can. You can not play politically correct games with these people. If you do you will wake up with a smoking hole in the ground.
I wonder what those 3000 plus people would say about that morning. And believe me they are not done. They will be back. As sure as the sun rises in the east and water rolls down hill they will attack us on US soil again.
Its my belief but I think Israel should push them totally out of their area. Their will never be peace as long as you have Muslim extremists and believe me the West Bank is filled with them.
But you can play politically correct games and wait for what the Muslim extremists do next.
I've not read such unutterable balderdash for a while crazyhorsegoat. Not since the last Zionist apologist I spoke with. There was certainly such a thing as a Palestinian and 800,000 of them were ethnically cleansed from their homeland in 1947. That's recognised by the international community whether you like it or not.
The 9/11 atrocity was carried out mostly by Saudi Arabians, a huge US ally. Nothing to do with Palestinians. of course Operation Cast Lead killed almost 1,400 Gazans including 300 children. But they don't count in your book I suppose.
As for extremism. Yes! I agree. The West Bank is full of them. They're called illegal Israeli settlers, virulently racist and violent who believe that their God gave them the land and that's all there is to it.
Far more innocent Palestinians have died from Israeli state terrorism than Israelis have from the PLO, Hamas, suicide bombers or any other means.
The Israeli Occupation Force have conducted murder of civilians as a matter of course. That's a fact! Even their own soldiers have confessed to that.
The occupation is illegal. That's the law!
p.s. Such an irony you seem to have a Native American handle. The parallels are compelling
Whose law is this against?
International Law including the Geneva Convention
Are Israelis not the aborigines of the land Israel?
Yes indeed they are the native peoples of that land.
I cannot help but notice whenever this discussion comes up that you never hear the reason the Jews decided to return to their homeland and live there together.
Why it was the left's good buddy Adolph Hitler! After the Holocaust when 6 million of them were exterminated in an attempt at genocide, they petitioned the right to return from...once again that great friend of the left...the U.N.!!!
These people have vowed never again and quite frankly I don't blame them.
Now on this Easter Sunday, being a Christian myself, i am very aware of the worldwide hatred and oppression of Jews and Christians. So it doesn't surprise me we have this little rant going.
I can't wait to see what sort of hateful stuff I get after outing myself as Christian here. It's all part of it.
Hey man, just want to say I'm an atheist but have no problem with your faith, as long as you don't mess with my life. I'll do my best not to mess with yours.
I think the U.N. is a positive idea that has become far too controlled by people solely motivated by oil and money (bad) or well intentioned but close-minded people who... But that's for another forum.
I believe the first motivation is the one behind US movements in the middle east. That, and the large percentage of Christians, Catholics, and Jews in the States likely makes the US wary of conflict with Israel.
Seems pretty obvious to me, but I figured better state it clearly here.
Thanks for your input JSChams
Unfortunately when you mentioned the Holocaust of 6 million Jewish people, you inadvertently forgot to mention that it was perpetrated by European Christians. It had completely nothing to do with the Palestinian people.
However it was the innocent Palestinians who were punished for the crimes of others.
I was fully aware of who perpetrated what. I was trying to point out that they are smart enough to not let it happen again somewhere else by someone else.
And that's why they chose the Middle East to settle? Right among the Moslems. Not the smartest move when they had the whole world in which to choose.
And forget about a new Holocaust JS. That's a complete red herring.
Israel has 200 nuclear weapons at Dimona. It's untouchable now. Any attempt by any Arab nation to destroy Israel would result in annihilation of that Arab country
Israel exists. It is a sovereign state. It is a member of the United Nations. It has a right to exist.
But if it wants true peace, protection from the UN and the overwhelming support of the international community then it should obey the law.
I think the aborigines were Canaanites, or even a people group or two before that. What makes Isreal special is that they are a people of promise. The true Arabs (descendants of Ishmael) are a people of promise as well. Actually, as things are now, we are all people of promise.
So, what's the problem?
Love is the solution.
First real solution I've heard through the academic, albeit passionate, banter.
I agree but you will never get Israel's enemies to go there.
Israel once had a meeting with Arafat and offered him all his demands. Do you know what he did?
He got up and walked away. They don't want the land they want Jewish blood.
I know. Why do people in that part of the world continue to want to overtake each other? It's been going on for thousands of years.
Love as in when you told me you hated all Palestinians except for the tiny babies.
I never said that I hated Palestinians at all. You are misrepresenting what I said. I said only the children are not guilty of bitter hatred and violence. It goes so far back as the ancient days. Israel does not need the U.N. to exist. Watch and learn.
I suggested you give them a place to live in Liverpool. Feed them mushy peas and sing Kumbaya. Careful, though. They will block the street and tell you where you can't walk your dog.
If Israel does not need the UN to exist then neither does Iran, North Korea or Willie Wonka's Chocolate Factory.
But the truth is, outside of your Goofy Disneyworld fantasy land, Israel DOES need the UN. Because the UN is the World community of Nations. It represents al nations. And every nation should adhere to the universal values of the UN.
If they don't then they are outlaw states
You know what I really like is I live in the US which is a sovereign nation and I can look towards the UN and tell them to go pound sand.
They are a collection of ambassadors fortunate enough to escape the lands they really don't like living in and live in New York where they can party with our women.
Let me phrase this another way.
The UN is not sovereign over anyone.
It probably won't be either.
There was a Great Britain and a United States hundreds of years before there was a UN. There was a Germany , France, et al.....
The UN is an idea that is past it's time. Maybe we need to send the dignitaries back to the lands they don't want to go back to. We could use the real estate to rebuild the twin towers.
Great Britain, the USA, France and Germany etc all built the UN
Sorry if it doesn't suit you JS but your opinion is useless and not worth reading. It doesn't matter what you say because millions upon millions disagree.
The UN is the community of nations across the world.
What is your obsession with mushy peas? Oh, and Kumbaya?
I bet you could get a solution if you could get rid of stuff like this. What do you think?
http://terrorism.about.com/od/groupslea … cJIhad.htm
Oh....and about Hamas...
Yes, but your argument is unbalanced because you are only discussing extremist activities on one side. You, and I know you're not gonna like me saying this, are heavily biased in favour of Israel. Both sides have elements within them that have extreme perspectives, both sides. Having said that, I don't believe that is the view of the majority of Israelis or Palestinians, I believe there is a moderate voice to be heard on both sides of the argument and I think that if those voices were allowed to emerge, and Net did his bit to allow the negotiations to continue (halt the sett building) then progress could be made.
There probably is a moderate voice but of course the thrust of this original thread is heavily biased toward Palestine. Therefore I am merely the opposing voice. Some of what I just posted is in answer to the thought posted here that Israel had no right to feel defensive as the Holocaust was long ago and no one actually had ever had any ill intent toward them which those links show otherwise. Also they show that those groups want to derail any peace process. Those are jihadist groups.
Trying to paint this as all the fault of Israel is an injustice in itself.
Basically there are those backing some of the Palestinians who don't want peace and an end to bloodshed. No?
Why doesn't the UN do something about THEM?
The UN doesn't need to do anything about them because Israel is more than capable of maintaining her own security, they are not powerless. And for me at least, the issue is not about the right of Israel to defend herself, of course she should. I wouldn't condone terrorism from any quarter, ever. But at the moment the way it appears to be working is that Israeli settlers are free to do just about anything they wish to the Palestinians. Take their land, bully them, verbally abuse them. etc. With absolutely no recourse.
If members of Hamas are found to launching rockets and causing injury or fatality to Israelis then they should be prosecuted with the full force of the law. The same should apply to Israeli settlers who are forcing Palestinians from their homes and land. Law and justice have to be consistent and serve all people and that just does not appear to be happening. I think this is the bone of contention for many.
We can just go around in circles saying "yes, but look at what the other side do." If both sides, stop, think and evaluate their own behaviour we could all make so much progress. Call me an old optimist, there's probably some truth in that statement, but the pointing of fingers and reluctance to take any responsibility is futile. IMHO
And of course some of their other friends....
http://terrorism.about.com/od/groupslea … bollah.htm
Hi Hollie,just come back from city centre-the docks in liverpool .Had magnificent time watching 'The little Girl with her uncle and her Dog',All Giants from France.Just made me smile when I read your thing about mushy peas-we have just had them in the dock with of course,chips and fish ! Then of course the GIANT dog -from France ,not Palestine ! Hope you see this street theatre in My Manchester -He is obviously Green with envy,keep well
The street theatre sounds great, I for one, will definitely be up for seeing this if and when it comes to the streets of Manchester. Fish and chips, lovely (but were better in days gone by when they were served in newspaper) I'm obviously a Northern traitor though, as I can't abide mushy peas.
You keep well too, Jandee.
"I hope everyone knows and understands that prior to the six day war there was no such thing as a Palestinian."
So who WERE those people living there? Invisible?
NAKBA. That's the truth of it. And Israel celebrates it.
And that is from the Palestinian or Arab position. They were Arabs. Many of the people from the early days of the PLO were born in Jordon, Syria, Saudi Arabia and no where near the land they claim. Palestinian nationalism claimed the name or initials NAKBA to mean the day when the 1948 war occurred. Before that it was used to refer to the day in 1920 when the British and others partitioned the Ottoman empire. Arafat was born in Cairo. And how anyone could support him with what he did is beyond me.
You see I have been there. And I am not Jewish or Christian. But I know what Fatah,Hezbollah, and the PLO have done.
To answer your question a lot of the early PLO were Muslim extremists who came from other countries. Most were citizens of other Arab countries.
In 1967 Jordan, Syria, and Egypt joined together to destroy Israel but they failed.
Do you know what Mossad and Likud has done, and is doing now?
And in 1979 Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel. Then in 1994 Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel. But still Israel continues it's illegal expansion and annexation of land that does not belong to them. It's illegal.
I agree. Though they may have legal rights to the land at Hebron, they have no rights to any land beyond that.
But why, in the beginning, did they need to make borders? Why didn't they all live in the land without bias?
A nationless people create and nationless people. Ironic.
I think the UN has proved to be toothless Shinkicker. We've seen that repeatedly. (It might give you a nasty suck, if you’re not careful.) To put it proverbially: Might is right and the devil is in the detail.
Power over justice amillar. Maybe you're right. That's the way of the world.
The U.N. has been impotent for at least 30 years in the political arena though they do good works in some humanitarian areas.
Israel is on a serious Inhumanity Curve...and they are losing out. Time has shown.
Any decent God would be ashamed.
Iraeel is not conducting a terrorism campaign, that would be the so called Palestinians who are hiding behind their own children and launching missiles from their nursery school.
There is no such thing as a Palestinian people group. You can't find them anywhere in history. The Palestinians are the Jews. Ask any Roman Centurion. I don't care to argue plain facts with the ignorant or outright liars who ignore history and the truth. Like I said, time will tell. Find a clean spot, because every knee shall bow.
The power of the resurrection has already been demonstrated. Prepare for the great and glorious day of the Lord. Don't be found without oil in your lamp.
Picture yourself in your house, your parents have a house next door and other family and friends inhabilt the block on which you live. Slowly, someone comes in and buys up all the houses except yours and all your friends and family are forced to live in that one house. You're surrounded by an enemy who's bought up the land to put up highrises and is now trying to force you out 'for the greater good'.
The high rise is Israel and your house is Palistine except it's being done with bombs instead of real estate deals.
Palistinians may have originally been Jews, but Israel is committing a sin, if you want to go that route. Jews don't seem to learn. Again, if you want to go that route, God told Abraham to inhabit the land he gave him, not to go out and expand his territory by encroaching on others.
Not sure why you're bringing the resurrection into this.
Sounds like Florida. It's Easter.
That has happened in the UK in many areas, the 'indigenous' population who were being forced out as the area changed to reflect the new inhabitants, were called racist if they complained and told to get used to the idea, as the UK was now a 'multicultural society'.
But I guess that was OK?
Maybe if the Israelis DID "inhabit the land He gave him" you would be happier?
On that day Yahweh made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates. (Genesis 15:18)
Would you think that was too much territory?
I would warrant that if Israel actually controlled the land it was given, that land would be more productive and the inhabitants would fair better, but of course those who are intent on wiping every Jew from the face of the earth, must be protected, and why should any rich Arab nations provide real relief, when sending rockets and funding schoolchildren to become suicide bombers is more in line with their intentions?
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. -- Benjamin Netanyahu
The one point I will make is that Abraham's descendants are actually ALL Semitic people, which of course includes the Arabs of decent from Shem, who are also Abraham's descendants, so to be balanced, we need to look at what the extent of the Jewish lands were:
Maybe those borders restored would solve the problem?
Israel is the only country in the Middle East who has nuclear arms and is so impatient to use them against Iran.
Israel is also illegally occupying Palestine and Israel are no doubt tyrants.
these statements are factual and unanswerable.
Rabbis know that Zionists have nothing to do with their religion, and are using Israel to further their attempt at world control. Israeli people are protesting their gvt, but you don't see it in the MSM.....
Sorry, but you can't contain a destiny whose time has come. Enough people know the truth. The pretense is Ovah.
I knew there would be at least one religious bampot on this thread before long. I'm just surprised it took so long. Thanks for commenting WD Curry. Now! PIss off and let us rational folk have a serious discussion.
If Israel are allowed to attack Iran we will all be the losers,everyone should show their concern........
Let's just let Iran do what they want. Then, we will all live happily ever after on the Good Ship Lollipop.
They are making candy for all the good little boys and girls.
The problem is that Israel has been allowed to do what they want. Despite their illegal occupation of Palestinian land , as recognised by the international community of nations. Despite their acquiring of nuclear weapons, despite their wanton slaughter of innocent civilians as proven by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, despite their war crimes against the Geneva Convention and the Hague Resolutions. Despite all the evidence, they can do what they want.
If Iran is allowed to do what it wants are we any better off?
I really don't know.
But thinking there is a god who has a plan for the ultimate good of man-kind gives comfort rather than thinking man is in control.
When has Iran actually been allowed to do what it wants tirelesstraveller?
Thomas Paine: "Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true."
The Old Religion has been lost. Or ignored. Or usurped.
I haven't seen this and thanks for pointing to it. Here's another.
"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right."
Well, I have to thank all the apologists....
I said this once before, but now I know it's true!
Out of all you here, I am the only one who would have defended the Jews from the Nazi's.
The rest of you would have cheered them on with the feeble excuse that "God told them to", or "Right makes right"...
Think of that on this Easter. And wonder why Jesus had to come to remind you where the Law is written....in our hearts! Of which I see none. IMHO
Happy Fake Easter, and Fake Passsover.
My Bad....Shinkicker too.
Are you telling us that the Jews justify the appropriation of the Palestinians' land because "Yahveh" said so? Tell us who Yahveh was? A prophet? God? If he is god I remember that the Christian god saw also the Holy land as his. What does that mean?
You know nothing of spiritual things. It is like explaining a lunar eclipse to a five year old. Tell headquarters to send in the first team.
Would LOVE to know how Operation Cast Lead was spiritual.
LMC you once sent me a link to a sweet little Palestinian child in an ad that was like the hurting puppy ads you see on TV. Now most of us realize that child is going to be raised to believe he or she will be spiritually rewarded if they go and detonate in a crowded mall or pizza parlor or bus. Don't preach at people about spirituality on Easter and Passover.
Listen JS Chams. Many of those Palestinian children never get raised. They get blown to pieces by Israeli cluster bombs or burned to death by Israeli white phosphorous. All dropped indiscriminately, but deliberately, on civilian targets. In contravention of the standards of law in conflict. i.e. war crimes
I wonder what came first? The Chicken or the egg?
When the Jews returned to their homeland they used to get bombed from the Golan Heights. So when they overtook that position in the seven day war they kept it. Frankly I don't blame them do you?
When they say Never Again they aren't kidding. You want the Jews to stop trying to rid themselves of people who were actively trying to h kill them first?
Leave them alone. It's kind of like abstinence for world peace.
Because if you shove they are going to shove back.....hard.
Yesterday Morning 12/04/2012 Three Good Women from Manchester,Britain, joined 1,500 people from around the World to support the Palestinians in their stand to unlock the Palestine ghettos created by the Israelis. They are fearful of arrest even if they get through the illegal borders put in place by the Israelis, nevertheless their principles are leading them to this action.
Israels ethnic cleansing is still going on today as they continue to rewrite history
It wasn't their Homeland. They had no legal right to that land. It belonged to the Palestinians.
As for Syrian land. Israel has no lawful right to the Golan. United Nations Resolution 242 from 1967 is unequivocal on that ....... "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of acquisition of territory by war"
You may not like that JSChams ...... But your opinion is irrelevant, as is mine as a matter of fact or any other individual..... . Because that's the law!! The Golan is illegally occupied territory
Well, you can easily make the argument that it is their ancient lands that was returned to them by the UN. That is basically what happened. As I have stated before if you don't want Israel to retaliate then leave them alone. I don't know why that's hard to understand.
You see the UN is basically irrelevant. They cannot make anyone do anything.
Reading your arguments JS I'm starting to come around to the point by lovemychris. You sound like a paid employee of Hasbara. $92 an hour pays better than Hubpages I bet.
JSChams, have I read your post correctly? Are you really comparing images of a suffering child to that of images of a suffering animal? Surely you are not deliberately attempting to de-humanize an innocent child, just because they are Palestinian?
No I am not attempting any such thing.
however you just have to sit in amazement at all you folks who really could care less about what is happening to Israel as long as the neighbors are allowed to continue THEIR genocide unabated.
The Palestinians you wish us to visualize cute and fuzzy bunnies. They have slaughtered many and as I have stated won't even accept their own demands. They, like the rest of their neighbors in the region, want Israel dead. Period.
Israel, like anyone else, will defend herself. Which of course she is not supposed to do.
But go ahead and support those who wish to exterminate them and then continue that over here in the US. That is their stated goal.
There you go again, "cute and fuzzy bunnies." They are human beings, and, it appears that you haven't noticed that there are elements within Palestine that want a two-state solution. Neither you or nor Israel can have it both ways, either the Palestinians want to obliterate Israel, in which case they would not even bother attempting to enter into negotiations regarding territory, or, they do want a two state solution and do not wish to obliterate Israel. From where I'm standing, there's only one way to find out and that is to halt ILLEGAL settlement building, and get back around the table. Any fool can see, that it is Israel who is unwilling to make concessions.
Well said Hollie.
Israel has expanded constantly through their illegal land grab. Yesterday the Jerusalem Post reported 3 new illegal settlements.
Obliteration is a word I would only use when referring to the Israeli policies.
Genocide in Israel is a complete fantasy notion. It will never happen to Israel. It has 200 nuclear weapons and the full might of the US military behind it.
I think Hubpages is not a perfect site to discuss political issues.
Right---we can see that by the reality going on there now.....Israeli's and settlers are being brutally suppressed by the Palestinians, since 1948....(sarcasm)
The truth is, there is no more Palestine. Israel has stolen it. There is no 2nd state for a 2 state solution to be possible. It has been partitioned and taken by force, by concurring Zionist regimes.
If you don't know that...educate yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZK … re=related
I can't help but wonder that folks think the Israelis want another 6 million of their people to just sit down and be slaughtered.
Oh wait.....I get it now....you don't believe that ever happened do you? That would follow from some of the rest of the delusions that have been poured in.
When your people have narrowly escaped genocide they tend to get touchy.
You are in fantasy land. The only one over there who has the bomb is Israel. They are the threat, and you refuse to see it.
The Holocause is over. You need to get in the present, and see the Entifada, and their desire to war with Iran, IMO.
And while you're at it---you should look at the hold they have on our country too.
Bibi should not be getting standing O's from our gvt, while they scream "you lie" at our president!
Go back and read. I said nothing about a bomb. See that's what your mind is filling in that's not there.
I have no desire for a war. You have to realize that all those nations seek the elimination of Israel and it has been that way for 6000 years.
Oh Bibi has some guts that many of our leaders never had. You would be sheering if he did it to Bush.
I brought up the bomb! Israel has it. google The Sampson Option.
You may not desire war, but the neo-kooks do. Ohhhhhhhhhh, bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran. catchy tune eh?
6000 years? They all lived in peace before the West spliced up the land, and made refugees out of the inhabitants.
Ashkenazi Jews are from eastern Europe...they have no more blood tries to the Middle East then I do. In fact--Bibi is from Lithuania, just like me!
I do not consider Bullies as having guts. And Bush was able to stop Bibi from bombing Iran, just as I hope Obama will.
He's a maniacal nut, IMHO.
Yes dear i know they have a bomb. Have had for quite some time. Wonderful thing about those bombs is if you have one and you let other people know you have one it keeps them from getting to handsy with you.
It's called a deterrent. I realize you understand zipola about any of that so let me explain.
It's just like the cold war. We had and have lots of warheads to get the others with them to leave us alone. Otherwise we would have been a smoky hole in the ground long ago. President Reagan continued to up the ante knowing the USSR would go bankrupt trying to keep up. None of them were ever used. Thanks God.
I used to be just exactly like you. The shock you are going to feel when you realize how wrong lots of this you believe in will freak you out at first.
President Reagan was a criminal. He knew all about Iran Contra...planned it (Maddow's book),and threw mentally challenged people out into the streets. "We're cutting their allowance", he joked as he treated fellow human beings like insects.
Israel is walling themselves off from all of humanity. Holocaust meet Holocaust.
Keep thinking the whole world doesn't know....you'd better wake up again.
The Holocaust is over. It is no longer an excuse for the Israelis to throw guilt at their opponents.
In fact there is not such a strong pro-Palestinian movement in Germany. So I don't know why the Holocaust card is played so often.
Myself and right minded people recognise the enormity of the Holocaust. A dark and horrible scourge in 20th century history and completely understandable that the persecuted Jewish people would seek a Homeland after the oppression the Pogroms and the Final Solution.
But the Holocaust is no defence for the ethnocide of the Palestinians.
I've read the whole thing. start to finish. Have you?
I would say it's the Arab-haters who are hanging it out for all to see.
Rachel Corrie and Fulkan Dorgan are 2 Americans who were killed by the IDF. Nothing was ever done about it.
Is that Anti-Americanism?
As a matter of fact i have. I attended Secret Church last Friday night and participated in prayer for the Horn of Africa and studied the Bible from 6:30 PM till 12:45 AM. I am not ignorant of scripture. Glad that you read it. Now let it soak in.
All i hear is Palestinians dying......how many Jews have been killed by Palestinian suicide bombers and others and why is that permissible?
Israel is never going back to the 67 borders and I do not blame them. They were attacked and drove them back. Much of that land is a tactical advantage to their enemies. The solution? Stop attacking them. As I have said Arafat was offered everything and walked away from it. The don't want peace they want blood.
How did Arafat walk away ??? He was in house arrest......
You can say walked away or whatever. The fact is appeasement was tried and they were having none.
Good job then that it is no longer Arrafat they need negotiate with. So, what's their excuse now?
The problem I have here is that no one here but me believes Israel should ever have existed or that their homeland was just that.
Therefore you don't care if the genocide of Hitler continues because you agree with it.
Therefore you don't care if the genocide of Hitler continues because you agree with it.
There you go again. Are you suggesting that I'm an anti-semite?
I don't know. Are you?
I am not trying to be insulting but no one here could give a fig about Israel. At all.
Well, my grandparents, David and Hannah Jacobs, would have been pretty shocked should anyone have suggested that I was an anti-semite. Come to think of it, as Jews who held very similar opinions to myself regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict, they would have been horrified that such a suggestion was made. Just because some people are prepared to speak out where they feel Israel is in the wrong, does not make them an anti-semite, nor condone the actions of a mass murderer.
I can honestly say, that no member of my family have ever, or will ever, agree with the genocide that took place under Hitler. Nor would we "not care" that millions of Jews were humiliated, de-humanized and wiped out. Perhaps that's why we feel able to highlight such injustices when they occur, to any race, irrespective of who the oppressor might be. Wrong is wrong.
I apologize if I offended.
Why is Israel supposed to just sit and accept extermination? Because you know that is exactly what will happen.
No problem, you didn't offend me and I don't believe that you meant to either. The problem is, that whenever I speak our about the illegal settlements I am forced at some point to state that I have Jewish blood flowing through my veins, just to demonstrate that I am NOT an anti-semite. I am critical of the Israeli government, not her citizens.
I challenged you regarding comparing a Palestinian child to an animal. I shouldn't have to remind you that Hitler did exactly the same to Jews. The ugly propaganda he promoted and circulated, compared Jews to rats. He demonized the Jews by suggesting they only loved money. He also negatively stereotyped them by using characertures, and always portraying Jewish people as having big noses. Why did he do that? What is just for fun? I don't think so- by portraying a race of people this negatively, particularly by comparing them to animals, it made it easier to "sell" the oppression of Jews to the nation. When we start comparing human beings to animals, we are lost as human beings ourselves. I'm not suggesting that you behave like Hitler, btw, I'm saying that we need to look at our own behaviour, all of us.
No-one is suggesting that Israelis should accept termination. And, quite frankly, I do not believe that that will happen. Israel has more than enough weaponry, and the greatest share of power to protect herself. I think, whether we argue from a historical or theological standpoint regarding whether Israel should exist or not is pointless. The fact is that BABIES were born within the Legal ( I know there are arguments about legitimacy regarding the 1948 borders, but I think that point is moot. So do many Palestinians who would agree to those boundaries in a heartbeat) settlements within Israel. They are Israelis, they know no other home and decisions were made on their behalf before they were even born. Likewise, for the Palestinian children. None of them deserve or have asked for this mess, their poverty or suffering.
IMHO, the current Israeli Government are ripping off both the Palestinians and the Israelis, by allowing the ILLEGAL settlements to continue and threatening the very existence of Israel itself. Asking Israel to conduct her business within the boundaries of international law should not be too much to ask. And, I don't believe that it is unreasonable for the Palestinian Authority to say that this should be a pre-requisite to talks.
I understand what you mean.
Yet all that weaponry has not kept suicide bombers from strolling into teh landscape and detonating.
All I hear still tells me that most here believe Israel had no right to defend herself. The reason I suggest they stop killing Jews is to see if that does not have the positive effect we all wish. They won't be stopping, we both know that. and Israel will not be disarming. We know that, too.
No one is suggesting that Israel should not defend herself, but the annexation of Palestinian land hardly falls within the boundaries of defence.
It's a negotiation tactic. The Israelis have always been at a weakness because they wanted peace more than the Palestinian side. Now with their own entrenched zealots, the negotiating parties will be in more balance, and will have to bear similar amounts of "pain" in order to nail down a deal. (At least that's the way I see it )
I support Israel's statehood and believe that it should exist without the constant threat of destruction by Hamas, Iran, or other countries.
I also believe that Israel's current policies towards the Palestinian territories have a very real human cost that can't be waved away by the antics and policies of Hamas.
It really is possible to see both sides of the argument, even if it's not a popular position to take. I agree, though, that those who think Israel should have never existed are not really part of a real-world conversation.
I think you're unfairly lumping Hollie with the anti-Semites, which she is not.
I said I didn't know how she was. Her words to not bode well for Israel....neither do yours.
Since their statehood was regained in 1948 they have literally been besieged daily. They try to survive.
Why don't you talk to the Palestinians about ceasing the human suicide bomb carnage? That's not murder?
Not all Palestinians are extremists, and not all Israelis support the annexation of Palestinian territory, or the siege of Gaza. If we truly want peace then we have to take stock and acknowledge where both sides can make concessions.
Why don't you reread my post. I'm not going to bother responding to someone who hasn't taken the time to read what I actually wrote, and is instead responding to a strawman.
The 1967 War was instigated by Israel not the Arab nations. The first strikes were by the Israelis.
There is no evidence that the Arab nations were going to invade. There had only been sabre-rattling prior to the Israeli attack. In any case the CIA confirmed to Lyndon Johnson months before that the Arab nations had little chance of victory
The Israeli Air Force even attacked an American Naval vessel. Many American sailors died on the USS Liberty at the hands of Israel in 1967. It was not accidental, it took place in daylight with the Stars & Stripes visible and lasted for over an hour and a half. It included napalm strikes from the air, torpedoes from boats and the strafing of empty life-boats to prevent escape. 34 US servicemen died and it was covered up
Perhaps if Canada or Mexico attacked and conquered US land then you might have a different opinion.
Israeli soldiers...in their own words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZK … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYVO9imt … re=related
If your church supports the Entifada...it is no church I recognize.
People have the right to live.
And there is no comparison between who's dying over there...None.
Solution? Stop the illegal settlements...then they can talk!!
You didn't read it.
They talked...Israel offered everything and THEY WOULD NOT HAVE IT!
They want to exterminate them from the face of the planet. Just like all their other neighbors. You single out one group of people and no I don't want them to die either but they continue to poke the Lion with the stick.
There is a thing called common sense.
Israel has stated NEVER AGAIN. They MEAN it. They are not going to sit and be slaughtered because the progressives wish them to become stupid.
If you actually did read the Bible(not that you believe it)you will know what they have been through.
Here's a 14 year old boy who has been brainwashed into believeing he will go to Heaven for killing Jews:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPU4UN03 … ure=fvwrel
What has that to do with illegal settlements?
If I am reading you right...you think it's OK for armed soldier to come into your home, kick you out, and bulldoze your house.
You, as a human being, are supposed to accept this lying down. Is that why all these RW'ers are buying guns to defend against the Obama gvt?
Or do you actually believe that certain people have more rights than others?
Here's why some within the Jewish community believe that the illegal settlements should be boycotted and and the territory the settlements stand on should be known as "undemocratic Israel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/opini … &_r=2#
Let's not get into a tit-for-tat exchange here JS.
We can all post examples of extremism and fundamentalism.
I can post plenty about the crazy Israeli settlers but there's no point in that.
And of course nothing is sacred:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20cZT3bv … re=related
"If the Jews stop they will be exterminated. If the Palestinians stop there will be peace."
It's not the Jews who are being exterminated...it's the Palestinians.
Israel has all the weaponry, money and miltary...who are you trying to kid?
You are so blinded by history--you can't see the present.
Israel is now in the position of the oppressors, not the opressees. It would behoove you to realize this, as the rest of the world already has.
--and 8 mil a day of money that we are cutting from Americans is feeding that PNAC cabal.
If Israel continues down Bibi's path...they will be regarded as poorly as the Nazi's, IMO.
It is to their benefit to get that maniac out.
....Or the world's destruction will be on their head, IMO.
Look.....you may as well blame Hitler. He started it in the modern era.
Why are the Palestinians and the Muslim world never to blame for anything? Even though as we speak they have taken over Egypt.
I thought you knew my opinion? Zionist = Nazi....same group, different covering.
And I'm far from alone on this feeling. Remember Hitler himself said: I have seen the new man, and he scares me.
Occult. Vril power Thule Society.
Hey HEYYYYY!!!! He mentioned Hitler. He actually mentioned Hitler!!!!
Another old Zionist chestnut for the desperate bereft of real arguments
Hitler is dead. He's gone.
Zionism is alive and breathing and destroying peace.
I don't believe there is anymore anything such as international law. It seems to have descended into parody.
Indeed, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight to uphold the rights of others when we see injustice.
It's in black and white. It has only been parodied by criminals and the supine nations who cow tow to the US administration
This is the compassionate face of Israel, and chooses peace. Which, thanks to the Netanyahu government rarely gets a chance to emerge. Like I said, the Israeli government does a dis-service to both Israelis and Palestinians a like.
Yes. There is also that matter of the ruling government in Gaza being Hamas, which has an explicit goal in its charter to destroy Israel. Not very neighborly.
It isn't, it's destructive and futile. However, Hamas does not rule Gaza- they are not in power. The children of Gaza did not vote for Hamas, they are just living with the consequences. They are innocents.
Hamas most definitely rules Gaza. They have pretty much since Israel withdrew in 2006. They were democratically elected by the adults who live there.
I know they were democratically elected, but they were not allowed to rule legitimately, correct me if I'm wrong, because they were considered a terrorist organisation? I'm not being sarcastic here, LL in asking you this question. At the time I'd lost patience with the whole process, so had thrown in the towel so to speak. I was under the impression that the Palestinian Authority had been handed the glove of power.
Now, their demands, if you could call them that, are quite different from that of Hamas? Yes?
No, I don't think so (I could be wrong, too). I think Hamas rules Gaza, which Israel withdrew from, and the PA rules the West Bank, which Israel has not withdrawn from. I think there was some talk about a coalition a few months ago, but that didn't go anywhere.
I know Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza, but were they allowed to rule? I was under the impression they weren't. I know, or at least I think I knew they kind of ruled subversively, but not officially. I need to read more.
Yes, they're allowed to rule. They're under blockade by Israel since they started shelling Israel soon after taking power, but they run Gaza.
The road to peace is a minefield, literally.
You can imagine with so many people outside of the conflict so willing to demonize one side and sanctify the other, it must be that much more difficult when it affects you directly.
Yes, it must be. And the intensity of feeling must be overwhelming, but perhaps? this is where outsiders with good intentions who are moderate can help sort the madness from the logic.
Hamas is, or was, a terrorist organization.
Sadly those people elected them in charge.
Are these the folks you are looking for peace from?
That's a superb point Hollie.
I agree. The propaganda is mountainous.
It is. We need to talk about peace, the politics shafts the people on both sides.
Unfortunately, I don't think Netenyahu wants peace at all...and there is nothing left of Palestine. I think the Rabbis have it right: dissolve the Jewish state of Israel---go back to living in harmony with each other---no one lording it over all.
As the man on the video said: Though shalt not steal, though shalt not kill.....If they bomb Iran, they will be killing Jews as well.
Zionism: a polical ideology designed to take land and power--nothin to do with religion a'tall. imo
I don't believe that Net wants peace, either. I think he has gone out of his way to avert peace. As you say, I believe that the two can live in peace together. The politics however, provide the catalyst of destruction. Maybe I'm an optimist, and I'm not one for regressive policies or behaviour normally, but the two once lived together, in peace. Let's go back to that place.
He wants peace, but making overtures for peace costs him too much politically. The same is the case, but probably worse, on the Palestinian side; Arafat always said he'd be killed if he signed a peace deal.
I think it doesn't make sense for the Palestinians and Israelis - who share neither a religion or a language, or even a set of values - to form one country. Let's try to see if Norway and Denmark, who share all three, are willing to merge into one country. Or Russia and Ukraine. Or even Argentina and Chile.
What about two states though, LL. Could this be possible?
I hope so! I think that's the only workable solution, although extremists on the both side are against it.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL … story.html
"Stealing land is an ACT OF WAR in any culture. NO ONE would tolerate some neighbor just stealing their neighbor’s land! How would YOU like it??"
It's no use Holly--they will either kill them all or force them to stay in their outdoor prison under brutal military martial law...all the while crying victim status.
I only hope that they understand their victim status is gone. They have taken on the cloak of a brutal dictatorship.
Holocaust meet Holocaust. The opressed has become the oppressor--with all the adorments due that position.
And my country pays for it. Against my will. So cry me a river about Universal Healthcare. We pay for death and destruction.
If they bomb Iran the whole World will suffer terrible consequences.
From where I'm sat, there are two people who want peace. Two sets of children, who, ordinarily would seek to discriminate, or look down on their class mate. The politics of the situation has become complete madness, fuelled by very intense feelings and lots of hurt on both sides. The politicians IMHO, have taken advantage of all this pain, all this needless suffering. Two states seems the obvious solution to me, but they do not have to be enemies of the future. Lets hope not. For now, just peace.
Sorry, meant "would not seek to discriminate"
So is Israel.
"There is no time to waste. The information is limitless. There is no refuge for Jewish people in Israel. My dear readers, Zionism will not protect you. Zionism will crucify you on a bloody cross of avarice. It is only through a union of Jewish, Christians and Muslims that we will we be able to take back our planet."--Judy Andreas
Do you really believe that? Over 12,000 rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel over the past decade, resulting in hundreds of deaths and injuries, to say nothing of the terror inflicted on the civilian populations targeted.
Obviously your sympathies are with the Palestinians, but erasing/minimizing the effect of the violence perpetrated on Jews by them (and vice versa) does nothing to end the conflict, and, in fact, just prolongs it.
Actually! At this very moment my extreme sympathies and indeed worries are with three brave Women who went in a peaceful protest just a couple of days ago. They are now in prison in Israel. A man of sixty nine is also in prison.
Can you tell me if this is correct in your opinion ? Do you condone this imprisonment of elderly people?
Well, you dodged the question of whether Hamas is indeed terrorist. If it's not about Israel, it's not worth talking about, right?
I don't know enough of what these elderly people did. If they committed a felony, then they should be imprisoned, and if they didn't, then they shouldn't. See how that works?
Can't you read ?? I plainly wrote that THREE women went on a PEACEFUL protest,as soon as they landed they were imprisoned -Shinkicker left the link for all to read ! SO get reading.
Hamas is no more terrorist than the Rabid child murderers who have starved ,tortured and imprisoned the Palestinians in their own land.OKAY.
Tell me what you think when you have read the link ,if you can be bothered !
There have not been hundreds of deaths by rockets. Injuries yes. But only 30-odd deaths.
Not that that excuses the actions. It doesn't. Targeting innocent civilians is a crime, it's terrorism although the death toll over 11 years is nothing compared to the Israeli killings of innocent Palestinians.
Hamas offered talks after their election victory in 2006. A fair and free election as evidenced by ex-US President Jimmy Carter.
Israel chose instead a blockade. They claimed that Hamas called for the destruction of Israel. But talks and negotiations could have resolved this. In any case Israel promoted Hamas in opposition to the PLO prior to the election. Cynical tactics of divide and conquer.
I don't excuse the rockets fired from Gaza. But when you are under siege, under illegal blockade, electricity cut-off, water supplies contaminated, when your homes are destroyed and your children are slaughtered en-masse by Israeli F-16's spewing white phosphorous and tanks bombarding your city as happened in 2009 I would ask you livelonger, what would you do? After 6 years of suffocation and despair with the whole world doing nothing to help you, what would you do?
Your sequences are wrong, and because of that, it paints a different picture of the history.
In 2006, Hamas offered talks on a truce, but not as part of an eventual peace deal. Hamas is not interested in a peace deal with Israel, since the destruction of Israel continues to be an explicit aim in its charter.
Unprovoked, Hamas shelled Ashkelon in mid-2006. The blockade started in earnest in 2007, once it was clear that Hamas and its cohorts were not going to stop (more rocket attacks from Gaza occurred in the latter part of 2006, and beginning of 2007, before the blockade).
If Hamas was interested in its citizens' welfare, why would they continue to shell Israel? Gaza is not starving; its obesity rate is very high. Maybe since its people are well fed, that they feel that they can prioritize bombing Israel.
If Gazans were interested in peace, why would they democratically elect a government committed to Israel's destruction?
Your beef with Israel seems to be the illegal settlements; for Hamas, it's that Israel exists. The illegal settlements are absolutely indistinguishable from Israel proper in terms of what they are working to get rid of.
I won't put up with your lies livelonger
Your post is a disgrace. Hamas held out the olive branch however you want to describe it, "truce", "peace" whatever. Israel wasn't interested.
The blockade began immediately after the election victory, in fact there was a blockade before the election anyway.
So! Stop wasting my time livelonger. Gaza is under an illegal siege by an Apartheid state.
Will Israel be there forever ? No! It wont, it will finish when aid from the U.S is withdrawn... It is up to the American people to decide to stop backing this state -----pretty much the same as they did in the time of Vietnam.
Hamas has 74 MPs in the 132 MP parliament. 20 of the Hamas MPs are in Israeli jails.
Meanwhile the arrogance of Netanyahu and his colonisation programme is continuing.........
Ok i need clarification.
You prefer a terrorist organization to an ancient peoples?
Surely you mean Freedom Fighters to illegal occupiers !
Hamas is and always has been until they got elected somehow a terrorist organization financed by Iran with the aim of erasing Israel from the face of the earth.
Israel initially backed Hamas against the PLO because a fundamentalist faction suited their agenda to sustain their zeal for conflict. The PLO would have been too moderate and reasonable to bomb. Bad PR!
To paraphrase your quote of lies JSChams and supplanting the truth for your fiction
"Israel is and always has been ........ a terrorist organization financed by the USA"
That just only leads me to believe you agree with my sscenario about Iran nuking Israel. You just can't wait.
That's a completely outrageous thing to accuse me of. You've no right or basis in saying that. Ridiculous garbage
You see, this is how it is.
Progressives equally hate the US and Israel.
Prove it, provide evidence for your assertions
Geez, here we go again.
That's all three or four of you on here have spouted this whole time is hatred for these two nations.
They appear to be the only sources of evil in this entire world even though you have human rights violations in Syria? Right? China ? Right?
i don't hear you looking to the UN to get them put down?
But we equate what we don't like which is Israel and the US.
What kind of an idiot would think that because we are rebuking the U.S and Israel Government,who when voted in,we should not have the right to discuss and deride their actions, or are you now telling me that the U.S is not a democracy i.e no freedom of speech -if there is hatred it is against murderers of the innocents and not the working class people of any country.
I agree with Jandee this statement is beyond stupid, this forum post happens to be about Israel and the US and their abuses, make one about China, Syria etc and we will post on it.
I've done that before. Those that are incredibly animated about Israeli aggression suddenly have absolutely no interest, even if the death toll is many, many times larger, if the aggressor is someone else.
Our President has already insulted Israel on numerous occasions and then tried to backpedal when he realized how many Jews in America voted for him.
I work in a technical field and do local service calls. One of our big customers is a Jewish retirement center in the local city. I happened to be out there the day of Barack Obama's inauguration. It was a festive atmosphere like a great celebration for them and they had a large area with chairs set up before a wide screen TV. I wanted to look around and tell them"Folks this man is not your friend".
Would have lost my job so.......
As we say in Britain 'Some people will do anything for an old piss-up"
Is that like saying . . . "Do anything for a buck" . . . ?
Utter nonsense. And you're surprised that Jews aren't buying it...
What does that have to do with your nonsense allegation that Obama has insulted Israel many times? Nothing.
He left Netanyahu sitting at least once....did he not?
Did you read your own article? This is the second time you've replied with a nonsequitur.
Yes...only three protestors got in.
They were told maybe they should go to Syria.
To be clear Barack Obama likes none of the traditional US allies. That has been plainly shown to be so. That includes his disastrous toast to the Queen of England.
Disastrous, really? Not how the British Press perceived the event. In fact, the Daily Mirror, a British Tabloid of the left leaning persuasion who could never be deemed as"royalists", but are also incredibly impressed by Obama, flaunted the headlines, "Best Buddies" Your president, has in fact, helped elevate the position of the royal family. However you perceive Obama in the US, is not necessarily how he is perceived in this country.
I can only imagine what the world thinks of us when they see Boner and No-Lips (McConnell) coming at them on the tv......yikes.
Run! Hide the kids!
Just kidding. Here's some good ole Americana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJmazK7z … re=related
He's only perceived badly Stateside by partisan Republicans. The rest of us ignore the manufactured hysteria - we saw it with Clinton, and it was BS back then, too.
What has that got to do with the thread? I'm asking why doesn't the United Nations do something? In other words the community of nations across the world.
Sod all to do with Barack Obama
The United Nations isn't going to do anything mate. They don't want to do anything. They are happy in Manhattan now that they are their and will impose sanctions or send their little blue helmeted beekeepers to look on but they aren't going to do anything.
That doesn't answer the question. And you are beginning to bore me. JSChams.
Some intelligent, informed opinions would be appreciated.
If you are looking for informed opinions that does not mean reality.
You know what I said about the UN is true. They are a toothless old dog.
So what then? Do you want the UN to undo what they did in 1948?
Telling me you are "getting bored" is the same thing I always get from progressives when they can't deal with the reality before them.
Arrogance is saying you think a nation of 7 million people shouldn't exist.
Arrogance is assuming that every ethnic group is somehow entitled to the status of independent nationhood. Are you a supporter of the IRA, Basque nationalists, and the rebels in Chechnya?
Look at the current makeup of the land and where people identify as Israeli vs Palestinian. It's took late for them to become separate nations without forcibly removing people on both sides from their homes, someone forging two separate economies out of what remains. It'd be disastrous for everyone involved.
IRA: No, the ethnic Irish always have Ireland. The Basque are not oppressed within Spain, and have enjoyed equal rights to other Spaniards in the modern era. About the Chechens: not sure.
Jews have a very long history of being treated badly wherever they lived, and wherever they lived they were always the minority. The UN does not enshrine the rights of minorities; it sets up nation states for national groups. That's why the UN set up a Jewish state which was named by its inhabitants as Israel.
No, each side will end up having a minority of the other. There are Norwegians living in Sweden, and Swedes living in Norway. No one is seriously suggesting they merge into one country, even though the gulf of their religious, ethnic, and linguistic differences is tiny in comparison.
The Palestinians are entitled to independent nationhood, that's their right, as recognised by the international community.
The Israeli settlers in the occupied territories are illegal immigrants. They are the beneficiaries of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel in breach of the 4th Geneva Convention. All 600,000 Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories are illegal transplants.
The Israelis managed to move 800,000 Palestinians in 1947 so 600,000 of their own people, a problem of their own making, should be achievable.
In fact Palestinian cartographers have proved that a 2 State solution is practical demographically.
It would only require some Palestinian concessions.
Of course the Palestinians have no obligation to concede or negotiate whatsoever, because it's their land.
But considering they have been willing to accept only 22% of their original country then they might be amenable to give up some land for the settlers.
Why? While I dispute your claim that the Israeli settlements are "illegal" under any sort of treaty or international agreement, the easier answer to your question is because there is no such thing as international law. There is no enforcement body. One might argue that international law exists for some nations -- namely, everyone other than the US. Since Israeli interests coincide with American interests, international law, even for believers in the concept, does not apply to Israel. Simple Poli Sci 101.
It does. Just because you say otherwise means absolutely nothing.
You've clearly never taken a Political Science class. Realist theory, which has been widely embraced, assumes international anarchy (aka, no power exists above that of the nation). Even those who accept other theories of international relations understand that in many cases, a true enforcement mechanism for international law doesn't exist. Can you really imagine the United Nations using force to enforce one of its decisions if doing so went against the wishes of the United States? (Obviously not, since the US holds a veto vote on the Security Council. But even assuming it didn't, the ramifications would be enormous.) Until the US abandons Israel, the Israelis can break all the "international law" they want without anyone stopping them.
Just because you say international law exists doesn't mean it's a real thing.
I don't say it exists. The international community of nations says it exists.
If it is so unimportant then why was there such a clamour for UN backing of the invasion of Iraq or sanctions against Iran?
And when the UN didn't back the invasion of Iraq, that didn't stop the US from doing what it wanted anyway.
How many countries that signed the Kyoto Protocol failed to meet its obligations? How often do UN members go against the decisions of the UN Security Council? Frequently. Because there is no true enforcement mechanism. International law is a "follow it if you want to" system that's only enforced by other members for their own gain, and on rare occasions.
All the more damning to those rogue nations who refuse to adhere to international law.
You say "Because there is no true enforcement mechanism"
That's nonsense. The UN enforced sanctions against Iraq in the 1990's and killed half a million children.
That's all I've got say Palomides. I'm finished with this thread. I've made my points, and I'm fed up battering against ignorance.
It's not "ignorance," it's a difference of opinion. As someone with a degree in political science, I'm fairly certain that my posts haven't been "ignorant." Off the top of my head, I could list half a dozen well respected professors and authors who agree with me -- and a handful who place more faith in international institutions than I do. In politics, very little is established fact, accepted by everyone. That's precisely why I said that my point was something taught in Political Science 101 -- even a professor with greater faith in the legitimacy of international organizations understands and respects the realist point of view.
Having said that, I'd like to go back to my point, which you have either misunderstood or I have not made clear. Either there isn't an effective enforcement mechanism, or Israel isn't violating "international law." You can't have it both ways. Any system that allows Israel to get away with violating the law for this long of a period of time obviously lacks a proper means of enforcement. And if a proper means of enforcement existed, Israel would have been punished for violating the law. These two options are mutually exclusive, and yet you have argued that both are occurring.
One could easily argue that the sanctions imposed against Iraq in 1990 were for other reasons and merely justified by claiming Iraq had violated international law. In fact, given the unequal use of international institutions to force less powerful nations to capitulate to particular demands, I would assume that the case in 1990 (which I admittedly know little about) was spearheaded by a nation or group of nations seeking to further a particular political agenda, rather than an international institution merely enforcing its treaties.
Someone is going off their rocker.
Who ever told you you hate America?
Who ever said Bush hated America?
on down the line?
You people accuse us of hating America..accuse the president of hating America....of being anti-American. Traitor.
And you want what exactly in return?
Maybe because we don't have a bunch of people on here cheerleading those other things.
Maybe because we pay for it 8 mil a day....what is our cost for those others?
Maybe because we don't have 330 members of OUR gvt...elected to represent US, signing a letter stating they will support those countries no matter what they do.
Maybe because a supporter of that gvt suggested that our president be assasinated to help said gvt.
Maybe because people of the world stood in solidarity with them after the sadistic treatment they recieved, only to turn around and watch them inflict it on someone else.
"Republican presidential hopeful Ron Paul revealed this week that he would support moving the U.S. Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, a surprising position that contradicts conventional wisdom about Paul's stance toward the Jewish state.
Paul first made this position known Wednesday night, during a private meeting with evangelical leaders interested in helping the Texas Congressman reach out to the conservative Christian community.
According to a transcript of the meeting obtained by Business Insider, the leaders started off the meeting by asking Paul whether he would sign an Executive Order to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, a major policy objective for Israeli hardliners and many leaders in the Christian Right."
Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 … z1sNzX88cs
according to Webster Tarpley: "the east of which is outside 1967 borders--it's illegal"
Ron Paul.....another kiss butt for Bibi.
Maybe there is a solution in the works.....from Veterans Today:
"What will Israel do if Iran follows through on its “threat” to participate in a conference, scheduled to be held in Helsinki late this year or early next year, focused on turning the Middle East into a nuclear-free zone? After 45 years of occupation, it’s tough to hold on to that victim pose and get a pass on certain things because of that victimhood. It could be that this year’s Holocaust Remembrance Day will be Netanyahu’s last chance to say Auschwitz and Fordo in the same breath without raising the question “And what about Dimona?”
What would happen if Obama were to tell Netanyahu and Barak that the Iranians are willing to give up, totally and finally, not just on their nuclear program, but also on their incitement against the Zionist entity? In return, Israel would have to give up, totally and finally, on its plans for more settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and support the establishment of a Palestinian state."
"The U.S. should end all aid to Israel if it attacks Iran, former U.S. Senator James Abourezk says.
It should “tell Israel outright that both American money and American political and military support will end should it decide to drag America into another Middle East war as it did in Iraq,” Abourezk wrote in an article published by the Council for the National Interest."
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/04/18 … acks-iran/
"The U.S. should not be aiding Israel no more than it should have been aiding South Africa under apartheid, Iran under the Shah, Iraq’s Saddam during his war with Iran, Cambodia under Pol Pot, or Indonesia during its campaign against the East Timorese,” May said.
"If the Republicans gain the White House in November things will only get worse, as Mitt Romney has explicitly stated that he would defer to Israel on all Middle Eastern security issues. Perhaps it is time for a wake-up call in the United States. Instead of presidential wannabes declaring their subservience to Tel Aviv, they should perhaps begin emphasizing that they will only act in the future in the interests of the American people."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? … ;aid=30331
"Zionism was opposed for social, political and religious reasons. The Jews (until 1933) correctly viewed Zionism as contributing to, not eliminating, anti-Semitism.
Well, how’s that for some revised history?! Zionism was actually reviled by European Jewry and recognized as a plot to relocate Jews to Palestine under the guise of protection. Transplanting millions of Yiddish-speaking, white-skinned, Ashkenazi Jews from Europe to a small plot of highly coveted land in a Middle Eastern desert surrounded by Muslim nations of every ilk was supposed to keep them safe and sound!
By the way, the Palestinians living in Israel today are likely to be the descendants of the ancient Judaic people known as the Hebrews. Most of the early Zionist leaders including David Ben Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, until the rise of Anti-Semitism and Nazi Germany, recognized that the Palestinians were the descendants of the area’s original Jews. Ben Gurion et al. believed the Jews living in Palestine had later converted to Islam.
Stop! Do not jump to any conclusion about the secular Jews living in Israel today. World events after 1933 gave the secular (converted) Jews an entitlement to the land irrespective of who their father is, or how they got there."
"After 6 years of suffocation and despair with the whole world doing nothing to help you, what would you do?"
This is the part I just don't understand....
It's so OBVIOUSLY wrong....and not only is nothing done..the perpetraitors are CHEERED.
If this is not a case of mind-control, I don't know what is.
"Last week, Israel opened a new checkpoint, ramped up plans to cut the West Bank in half, and stripped up to 70,000 Palestinians of their Jerusalem IDs. This week, Israel is taking another step in purging East Jerusalem of its Palestinians-- with a national park."
Pretend it was this:
"Last week, Hamas opened a new checkpoint, ramped up plans to cut the West Bank in half, and stripped up to 70,000 Jews of their Jerusalem IDs. This week, Hamas is taking another step in purging East Jerusalem of its Jews-- with a national park."
We'd be up in arms....decrying the horrible treatment of the Jews.
I like your hypothetical scenario - Hamas their all terrorists simply because they are not Zionists and they are working to liberate their lands - we can't allow that - because we the Westerners love freedom and democracy only when it suits our needs.
Their a millions of native Jews who live in Muslim lands all over the globe (may I add in Peace) for generations but the only place we have issues is where people are not treated as people but as sub-standard species that can be exterminated using various means without anyone in the world supporting them. Just look at how impotent the UN and EU policies are when it come to dealing with Western instigated troubles and yet everyone has an opinion and want's actions when it is not in the interest of the Western society.
Double standards is not acceptable and I am glad that so many people are waking up to the reality.
Everyone is equal - no life is more valuable than another life!
Shame really that many respondents to this thread are still holding on to the old stories that have been used as the pretext for what was nothing more than occupation using illegal terrorist actions against the British occupation of Palestine by the Zionist regime in Israel.
Thanks to Shinkicker for raising this thread and keeping up with it irrespective of the issues and negative responses his had.
Soon as someone mentions anything against Israel (even though it may be the truth) they are branded and as evil and all is done to prevent their opinion from being heard - Why is that I ask?
Is it because we the Western society do not have the stomach to stand up and accept that the very illegal country that we support is taking actions which in terms of international standards is illegal?
The only way it ends. And that includes us too.
http://www.lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-Isr … lestinians
I can't see how the Israeli government can be using the annexation of land as a negotiation tactic, when they are fully aware that negotiations will not continue whilst they are grabbing land. I see it as a tactic to avoid negotiations/or the making of concessions.
That's possible. It's also possible that it any (temporary) cessation in settlement building opens up an opportunity for negotiations. Remember, that Israel never came to the bargaining table while being bombed by the Palestinians, but did so during the calm afterwards.
I don't think it's that many think only Israelis should be prosecuted for acts of terrorism. I just think it's a very emotive topic (as is so often the case when we discuss politics.) I think many people in this thread, although obviously I cannot speak on their behalf, feel that Net is in a position where he could put a stop to the illegal settlement building (after all is it not the Israeli Government that is funding this in some respect because of the benefits that settlers are given?)
I'm not saying that this would be the be all and end of all of the conflict (if only) but Israel is in breech of international law. If they want to be seen to be doing all they can to end the conflict and find some form of resolution, then this is a minimum requirement. I would also, however, say that the PLO should overtly condemn any terrorist attacks against Israel. This should also be a minimum requirement.
With respect to Jandee's comment about it was not ours to give. I understand where she is coming from. Palestine was under British protection and it was not our land to give anyone. I'm ashamed to say that my country of origin (England) has a very odious, corrupt past (and present actually if we look at British politics and public life). British interference in this matter made everything a whole lot worse.
For people to say this is an equal situation is ridicuolous, IMO.
Palestine was taken by terrorist acts, the people were forced out, and terror tactics used on them then and now. They are under a brutal military occupation since 1948, and any time they try and fight back, they are blamed for the whole situation.
Palestinians did not committ the Holocaust...you can look to world leaders and business tycoons for that.
2 of whose direct relatives were pres of these United States.
Son and Grandson.
I say all those here in America who want to give up their homes for Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews are free to do so. YOU go live in a tent with your kids!
Thomas Paine: "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."
Well said Chris. Wonderful words.
Finkelstein is great. He has the guts of a thousand men.
It's just the way it is....those who have suffered cannot abide the suffering of others.
Like he said: the lessons he was taught by Holocaust victims, makes him speak out against Israel.
by Shinkicker 8 years ago
In 2010 Norman Finkelstein said "Israel is now a lunatic state"His words have never been more prophetic. Israel is conducting one atrocity after another in Gaza right now. This is a prolonged and sadistic massacre of a civilian population.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BchxN2Y9NIk
by Shinkicker 9 years ago
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by Dave McClure 8 months ago
In a 90 minute 'debate', neither Joe Biden nor Sarah Palin even once used the dreaded P-Word. Both candidates made a point of declaring their unquestioned support for their no.1 ally and friend in the Middle East, Israel. Biden, once only, allowed for the possibility of a "2-state...
by Mike Russo 4 years ago
How does moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and declaring it the Capital of Israel create peace in the region?
by undermyhat 10 years ago
Britain may be treating their fighting men and women right by getting them into the Olympics but for all the wrong reasons. Attendence is very disappointing so to fill the seats the British Olympics is giving unfilled seats to military service members so as to fill out the tiny...
by Leslie McCowen 9 years ago
A Bill, “H.R. 4133: United States-Israel Enhanced Security Cooperation Act of 2012,” legally binds America to a “Jewish” state.The Resolution was passed under a procedure called “suspension of the rules” typically reserved for non-controversial topics requiring little debate and allowing for a...
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