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Exposing the Supposed Trinity ‘Proof’ Texts

Updated on May 3, 2018
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PlanksandNails' goal is to be a catalyst in encouraging the followers of Christ to pursue Biblical truth for themselves.

This article will examine the supposed Trinity proof texts that many use to support the Catholic doctrine that Jesus is God. It is up to each individual to weigh and test every doctrine for themselves to see what withstands the scrutiny.

Will you be ashamed one day when you realize they that you had bought into a strong delusion?

Do you realize that the hardest religious group to reach for the true Gospel are people who call themselves ‘Christians?’

For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie. - 2 Thessalonians 2:11

Christ said,

Enter by the NARROW GATE. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and THOSE WHO FIND IT ARE FEW. – Matthew 7:13-14

The narrow gate.
The narrow gate.

If the gate is narrow and the way is hard, it would seem that the true follower of Christ would not worship the mainstream Catholic god of the man-driven church system that billions of ‘Christians’ worship throughout the world. Ultimately, the Trinity doctrine destroys the genuine Gospel and the faith of Christ.

The following will scrutinize the supposed Trinitarian 'proof' texts that Trinitarians use to promote their doctrine.

The Evidence of Elohim

Elohim

And God said, Let US make man in our image – Genesis 1:26

Elohim meaning and definition.

We have to ask ourselves, does ‘us’ mean a Trinity or a precise indicator that there are three in number in this passage?

A proper exegesis of this verse in its context would be what is discoverable in the verse and those that surround it instead of forcing an implied notion upon it. Since there is no way to truly know a precise number, one cannot come to a conclusion by imposing Trinity bias on that particular verse. To say 'us' means a Trinity is wishful thinking.

Many say that because the word ‘ĕlôhı̂ym’ (elohim) is plural that it must mean God is a Trinity. It is true that ‘elohim’ is a plural Hebrew word, but to say that this necessitates a Trinity must be imagined into the text. ‘Elohim’ can mean God and his angels, divine representatives or His qualitative characteristics.

Although ‘elohim’ (God) occurs in the plural form in Genesis 1:26, the use of the word does not indicate an exact plurality of three separate persons in one ‘God.’ God could be speaking to the angels in the heavens.Just as in in Genesis 1:26, God says 'us' in Isaiah as well.

And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for US?” – Isaiah - 6:8

Here God is speaking to the seraphim. Likewise, this could be said the same as in Genesis 1:26. We have to be careful not to infer something that we don’t know for sure and build doctrine around speculation. We could take other verses in Scripture that has 'us' in it too, but it would be wishful thinking to imply an exact number unless the verse or the surrounding verses indicated so.

And now the letter that you sent to US has been plainly read before me. – Ezra 4:18

Does this mean that the 'us' is a plurality of three persons?

No, in the surrounding context of this verse, 'us' is many, but the accurate number cannot be fully determined.

The fact is that the evidence is inconclusive that 'elohim' in Genesis 1:26 is exactly three persons in one. Furthermore, there are many other Scripture references that use the same Hebrew word that reveals God as singular person without forcing preconceived notions into the text.

The plural noun ‘elohim’ can refer to the qualitative characteristics of God such as His wisdom. This is why we cannot use Genesis 1:26 as ‘proof’ that Christ is God or part of a Trinity because in other areas of Scripture ‘elohim’ is described in singular person as God the Father.

Reference: Hebrews 1:8-9, Psalm 45:6-7, Hebrews 10:7 and Psalm 40:7-8

The Domain of God

The suffix of ‘elohim’ (EL) is attached to many names in Scripture such as, DaniEL, IsraEL, ELijah, EzekiEL, GabriEL, JoEL and RachEL. Unlike YHWH, the pronunciation and vowels of this word have been preserved. ‘Elohim’ occurs more than 2500 times in the Hebrew text with various meanings from Egyptian deities (Exodus 12:12) to 'the god of Moab' (1 Kings 11:33). ‘Elohim’ also refers to demons and seraphim and other supernatural entities (1 Samuel 28:13).

‘Elohim’ (God) cannot be applied as a personal name when it refers to something impersonal like man, creature, father or brother. A name can only be given when the context determines it.

‘Elohim’ describes a domain of the individual(s) it refers to. The one God, the Father is YHWH; therefore, ‘elohim’ would be His domain of having all power, authority, magnificence, excellence, etc. When ‘elohim’ refers to angel(s), it is delegated as a sub-domain of the Father and then to a personal name if identified. In likewise manner, when humans are referred to as ‘elohim’ such as kings and prophets, they too are a sub-domain of the Father.

What is interesting is that in the Hebrew manuscripts ‘elohim’ is never written before the word YHWH, but always after. The Father is the Most High and everything else is subordinate in His domain.

You would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I. - John 14:28

Elohim in Genesis 1:26 when speaking of 'us' may also refer to God's dominion and authority. To imply that 'us' means a Trinity is wishful thinking. The Trinitarian must image their indoctrination into the text because there is nothing that precisely says Trinity, three in one or other words and phrases that cannot be found in the pages of Scripture.

Do We Throw Away our Thinking Caps?

The common response to the confusion of understanding the Trinity is,

'This is a hard concept for mortal man to understand. Just because we do not understand it does not mean it is not true.'

Some will refer to this following verse in Isaiah.

For my thought are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thought than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9

The Trinitarian will quote this verse completely out of context. They do not realize that the passage refers to the ways of the wicked and their unrighteous thoughts contrasted with God’s ways. It has nothing to do with undervaluing our logic and reason. The immediate context and antecedent of these verses reveal this.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return to Yahweh, and he will have mercy on him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. – Isaiah 55:7

It should be clear who the context of the preceding verse applies to. The irony is that it may apply to them for their thoughts concerning their Trinity doctrine.

For God is not the author of confusion – 1 Corinthians 14:33

Colossians 1:16-17

FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. – Colossians 1:16-17

This is a popular Trinitarian ‘proof’ text used to imply that Christ is God, but again they have missed the following verse that gives the correct context.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION. - Colossians 1:15

And he is the head of the body, the church. He IS the beginning, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that in everything he might be preeminent. – Colossians 1:18

We see here that the context of this verse speaks of the risen Christ in present tense. Christ 'is' the beginning, not 'was' the beginning. Referring to Genesis 1:1 would be in the past tense supposing that Christ was the Creator, but 'is' is in the present tense referring to the redemption and forgiveness of sins through the risen Christ at that present time that began at his resurrection. Christ is the 'beginning' of the new creation.

The word 'beginning' found in the Gospels and Epistles refer specifically to Christ are based on the risen Christ after he was resurrected.

As for you, see that what you have heard from the BEGINNING remains in you. – 1 John 2:24

Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the BEGINNING. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. – 1 John 2:7

What they had heard from the 'beginning' was that Christ was their Advocate.

And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the BEGINNING, so that you should walk in it. – 2 John 1:6

And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the BEGINNING—that we love one another. – 2 John 1:5

The BEGINNING of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. – Mark 1:1

Just as those who from the BEGINNING were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us – Luke 1:2

The word of God manifested in the flesh of Christ 'began' at his resurrection and the word spread as the eyewitnesses attested to his victory. This means that all those who believe in the Gospel can become new creations through Christ becoming sons of God too.

Hebrews 1:2

Hebrews 1:2 is also used as supposed ‘proof’ text that Jesus is God.

But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through who also HE CREATED THE WORLD. – Hebrews 1:2

If Christ is the Creator as God, then why does he need to appoint himself heir of all things that he created?

By looking up in a concordance, you will see that the "world' in this passage does not mean the earth or the universe. The 'world' in Greek is 'aion,' which means 'age' that pertains this age.

The phrase, 'these last days' the writer of Hebrews is referring to that moment in time. In the passage, the Father is speaking through His Son, but is contrasted to the past when God spoke through the prophets in the Old Testament in the preceding verse.

Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. – Hebrews 1:1

The context of these verses mean that 'in these last days' Christ was appointed heir of all things by the Father upon his resurrection by sitting down at His right hand.

Revelation 4:11

“You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.” - Revelation 4:11

This verse is often quoted to imply that Christ is God, but in the very next chapter the distinction is made between the Lamb and God.In the preceding verse it states,

The twenty-four elders fall down and worship THE ONE SITTING ON THE THRONE (the one who lives forever and ever). And they lay their crowns before the throne and say – Revelation 4:10

In Revelation 5, we can see the Lamb (Christ) took the scroll from the Father who is 'the one sitting on the throne.'

And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I SAW A LAMB STANDING, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And he went and took the scroll from the RIGHT HAND OF HIM WHO WAS SEATED ON THE THRONE. - Revelation 5:6

The Lamb (Christ) who is between the throne of God and among the elders takes the scroll from the Father who is ‘seated on the throne.’

If Christ is God, then why is he among his brethren instead of on the throne as God?

Revelation 19:13

He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the WORD OF GOD. – Revelation 19:13

Everything was created by the spoken 'word of God.' Christ was created by the Father by His word [logos]. The word was made flesh when Christ was resurrected 'beginning' the age of the Gospel through Christ given the title, the Word of God. When we accept the Gospel, we can become begotten sons of God, we too become the word [logos] manifested in the flesh.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to HIS GOD AND FATHER. – Revelation 1:6

Christ has a God who is his Father.

If God is Christ's God and his Father, then he cannot be God.

Comma Johanneum
Comma Johanneum

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7

Comma Johanneum

This is the famous Trinitarian pet verse also called the Comma Johanneum. The fact is that this spurious verse is not found in the older manuscripts. Trinitarians and KJV Onlyists are unwilling to accept the facts on this matter and want to believe that this verse is 'authentic.'Many don’t like to acknowledge that the ‘the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one’ was added later to Scripture. Almost all textual scholars along with many Trinitarian scholars are in unanimous agreement concerning this.

At this point [1 John 5:7] the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus, found in no Greek MS. save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, [No.] 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome did not have it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it, and 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order. — A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Baker

Some Latin scribe caught up Cyprian’s exegesis and wrote it on the margin of his text, and so it got into the Vulgate and finally into the Textus Receptus by the stupidity of Erasmus.” — A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Baker Books, Grand Rapids, 1933, reprinted 1960

The testimony of God concerning His Son without man’s additions agrees with the testimony of the spirit, the water and the blood.

For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. – 1 John 5:7-8

This is why the updated translations of the Bible have omitted, ‘For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.’

It is a dangerous game to imagine things or add things into God’s inspired words that was never there in the first place. To infer notions, speculations, cherry-picking and outrightly twisting Scripture to impose man-made doctrines and creeds is not rightly dividing the word [logos] of truth.

Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. - Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. - Acts 17:11

Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the WORD [logos] of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15

Most supposed Trinitarian ‘proof’ texts falls flat for the ‘Berean’ because their doctrine relies heavily on eisegesis rather than exegesis.

Fully God and Fully Man

Trinitarians like state that Jesus was fully God and fully man.Right here this statement is a contradiction because fully God and fully man is impossible. Man is created; therefore, cannot be an eternal uncreated God. It also states in Scripture that God cannot be contained, nor is He a man.

So God created man in his own IMAGE, in the IMAGE of God he created him; male and female he created them. – Genesis 1:27

The Son is the IMAGE of the invisible God - Colossians 1:15

But who is able to build him a house, since heaven, even highest heaven, CANNOT CONTAIN HIM? Who am I to build a house for him, except as a place to make offerings before him? – 2 Chronicles 2:6

GOD IS NOT A MAN, that he should lie, OR A SON OF MAN, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? – Numbers 23:19

It doesn't take long to reference a few Scripture verses of many that attest to Christ being God becomes a contradiction.

For there is ONE God, AND there is one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus. - 1 Timothy 2:5

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (Adam) how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the ONE MAN, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! – Romans 5:15

Isaiah 9:6

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The MIGHT GOD (el), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” – Isaiah 9:6

In order to do a proper exegesis of this verse, it would be important understanding the Hebrew language and culture.The title of 'God' (el) in Isaiah 9:6 can also be applied to powerful earthly rulers also.

I will give it into the hand of a MIGHTY ONE (el) of the nations. - Ezekiel 31:11

By comparing Isaiah 9:6 (el = 'God') with Ezekiel 31:11 (el = 'Mighty One') dispels the Trinitarian bias. If Christ is God then that would make the Babylonian king God also.

The word 'God' in the Hebrew culture had a much wider range than what most would define it to be today. Back then, a man acting on God’s authority can be called 'god' (el).

Daniel 3:23-25

The Trinitarian’s will allude to the many other verses in the Old Testament saying that the 'angel of the Lord' is Christ, but the fact is there is not one verse in Scripture that directly states this. Trinitarian’s must try to sell an unprovable assumption.

The Trinitarian likes to quote this following verse.

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the SON OF GOD. - Daniel 3:25 KJV

When we look at other Bible translations we can see that the verse is not about proving that that Jesus is in the fire as an angel of the Lord, but from the perspective of pagans.

He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is LIKE A SON OF THE GODS.” – Daniel 3:25 ESV

He said, "Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is LIKE A SON OF THE GODS!" – Daniel 3:25 NASB

When you look at this verse from other versions of Scripture and the proceeding verses the context become clear.

And the SATRAPS, the PREFECTS, the GOVERNORS, and the KING'S COUNSELORS gathered together and saw that the fire had not had any power over the bodies of those men. – Daniel 3:27

Wishful thinking
Wishful thinking

The people of the crowd were pagan idol worshipers and what they identified as the fourth in the fire was ‘like a son of the gods.' They were not saying, 'Hey everybody, that is pre-existent Christ who is 'God the Son' as the ‘angel of the Lord’ as part of the Trinity in the fire with them.' The is just wishful thinking.

John 10:30

The Trinitarian loves this following verse, but they fail to understand their cherry-picked notion falls flat.

I and the Father ARE ONE. – John 10:30

If Christ and the Father are one means that Christ is God then we too are 'God' according to this passage.

That THEY MAY ALL BE ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that THEY MAY BE ONE EVEN AS WE ARE ONE, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. - John 17:21-23

Is Christ really saying that because he is one with the Father that he is God?

No, it should be obvious that Christ is praying to the Father in hopes that others will be one in unity with the Father just as he was. Today, by what Christ has done we too can be one with the Father just as he is.

'You have a demon! '
'You have a demon! '

Siding with the Accusers

The Trinitarian will say,

'It was at this point that the Jews take up stones to stone Jesus. Why? Because they were accusing Him of making Himself equal with God. They understood what He was saying.'

Have you ever thought that the Jewish leaders were lying when making their accusations against Christ?

“The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD.” - John 10:33

Is this really true?

No, Christ tells them the real reason why they are going to stone him in the previous verse.

Jesus answered them, “I have shown you MANY GOOD WORKS from the Father; for WHICH OF THEM ARE YOU GOING TO STONE ME? – John 10:32

Are you going to believe the lies of the Jewish leaders?

Are we to believe that Christ had a demon too?

Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” The crowd answered, “YOU HAVE A DEMON! Who is seeking to kill you?” - John 7:19-20

It should be obvious that the Jewish crowd were liars, yet Trinitarians want to use the false testimony from the Jewish crowd to support their claim that Christ is God. The Jewish leaders cause or reason to kill him was false. In fact, Christ gave the real reason why the Jews wished to kill him.

The world cannot hate you, but it hates me BECAUSE I TESTIFY about it that its works are evil. – John 7:7

Has not Moses given you the law? Yet NONE OF YOU KEEPS THE LAW. Why do you seek to kill me?” – John 7:19

Why do YOU NOT UNDERSTAND what I say? It is because you CANNOT BEAR TO HEAR my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. – John 8:43-44

The real reason the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Jesus was that he exposed that they were liars and hypocrites.

Are we to side with and agree with liars and hypocrites in a desperate attempt to prove Christ is God?

Christ consistently rebuked these men by calling them adulterous and evil people.

It’s ironic isn't it?

The Trinitarian will say,'

We can believe like the Pharisees and religionists of the day and take the position Jesus was only a man, but they understood what Jesus was saying, 'being a man, makest thyself God.' 'I choose to believe Jesus when in essence said, I am God.'

This is a Trinitarian lie. Christ did not say, 'I am God.' That is putting words in his mouth that he did not say and using liars as witnesses to say that he said so.

Why would anyone want to side with people and accept their testimony when it has already been proven that they were liars, hypocrites and murderers?

Any court of law today would throw out any testimony of those who bear false witness.

The problem was that when Christ said, 'I and the Father are one,' the Jewish leaders did not understand what he was saying because they refused to listen to him. If they had listened to him carefully, they would have understood what he meant when he said he was one with the Father in unity of Spirit, not that he was God. Since their minds were clouded and they refused to listen to him, it sounded like Christ was claiming to be God to their ears. Today, Trinitarians have taken the place of the Pharisees and build their religion around what they said about Christ rather than what Christ said about himself.

Matthew 26:64-66

The Trinitarian states,'The religious leaders of Jesus’ day very clearly understood what He was proclaiming. It was that claim, that He was God incarnate that led to His crucifixion.'

And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, The Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “YOU HAVE SAID SO." – Matthew 26:63-64

Christ never said, 'I said so,' but said, 'you have said so.'Were they were under the the impression that he was claiming to be the Son of God.

He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For He said, ‘I AM THE SON OF GOD.’” – Matthew 27:43

Do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ Because I said, ‘I AM THE SON OF GOD’? – John 10:36

He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I AM THE SON OF GOD.’” And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way. - Matthew 27:43-44

Did Christ actually say that he was God?

Were his accusers right in claiming that he was making himself out to be God?

Christ implied that he was the Son of God. He wanted the Father to bring his followers to this conclusion based upon the evidence of Scripture, his life and his teaching.

When the Trinitarian says,

'The religious leaders of Jesus’ day very clearly understood what He was proclaiming. It was that claim, that He was God incarnate that led to His crucifixion.'

This is not true because when all the evidence is weighed, we can see that Christ ministry was not about proving that he was God, but that he was the Son of God.

The Son of Man

The the Trinitarian states,

'Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of man. Do we have a discrepancy here? Is Jesus the Son of God or the Son of man?'

The problem with the Trinitarian doctrine is that they make discrepancies for themselves.

GOD IS NOT A MAN, that he should lie, OR A SON OF MAN, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? – Numbers 23:19

Titus 2:13

Looking for the blessed hope and appearing OF THE GLORY of our great God AND Saviour Jesus Christ - Titus 2:13

Paul says in Titus that we are awaiting the appearing of the glory of our great God 'and' Saviour, Jesus Christ. The Trinitarian will misread the text to mean that we are waiting for our great God who is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the glory of his Father as stated in Matthew.

"For the Son of Man is GOING TO COME IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER - Matthew 16:27

Jesus is the glory of God. God gave him his glory. Somehow Trinitarians insist that this passage of Scripture means that Jesus is God or proof that he is part of the Trinity. However, the facts are that Christ received glory from his Father because he is the Son of God. The Son of God received glory from his Father and he wants to pass on that glory to us also.

I HAVE GIVEN THE GLORY YOU GAVE ME, so that they may be one as We are one— John 17:22

For He received honor and GLORY FROM GOD the Father when the voice from the Majestic Glory said to Him, "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased." - 1 Peter 1:17

If you believe in the Trinity, then you believe in the god of the Catholic Church. There is no way around it.
If you believe in the Trinity, then you believe in the god of the Catholic Church. There is no way around it.

The problem with many Trinitarians is that they will refuse to concede that they have not rightly divided the word of truth on a particular passages of Scripture and then will move on to many next passage of Scripture and butcher it to their own liking. We are to examine Scriptures daily one at a time in light of the full counsel of Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit to see if the doctrine of the Trinity ‘were so.’ Confusing and ambiguous passages should be interpreted based on clear passages. The Trinity doctrine does not hold up to the scrutiny as Scripture must harmonize with Scripture. We are not to appeal to Catholic creeds as our source of truth.

Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word [logos] with all eagerness, EXAMINING THE SCRIPTURES DAILY TO SEE IF THESE THINGS WER SO. - Acts 17:11

Do you believe the "proof" verses held by Trinitarians withstand scrutiny?

See results

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    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      Ro 3:4 Certainly not! But let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar, just as it is written: “That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged.”

      The tests in life is not proving another wrong

      It is proving your relationship with your creator, and giving him the glory. In turn he will grant blessings.

    • profile image

      KingdomCome 

      2 years ago from those of the Ecclesia

      It seems to me that "2Peter 3:3 and Jude 17:18 fit the JW like a glove.

      " Their own desires" through their false teaching.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      Do you think people are children that can not read for themselfs, do you think no one can make a sound Judgement of what is right and wrong for themselves, why do you choose to attack what I write here and I must say in all truthfulness you do not know this subject in the correct light, you have other religions you could attack but you choose this one , well What Jesus said was certainly the truth you have proven it to be true in your ridicule.

      2Pe 3:3 First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires

      Jude 17,18 As for you, beloved ones, call to mind the sayings that have been previously spoken by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,18 how they used to say to you: “In the last time there will be ridiculers, following their own desires for ungodly things.”

      You have certainly proven the scriptures to be true, you also have proven what time it is. The last days,

      Thank you for that.

    • profile image

      KingdomCome 

      2 years ago from those of the Ecclesia

      All of a sudden KandT thinks words don't matter. When she's been trying to tell us how wrong we are for not using the name Jehovah and insist we should show respect to His name and made a big deal out of it. She quoted all types of verse in her corrupted New World Translation to try and prove her point. Now she says words don't matter. KandT is one of the biggest hypocrites I've seen in Hub Pages. I've pointed out some of the false teaching of the JW based on their corrupted translation of the New World Translation, now all of a sudden KandT says words don't matter.

      Yes I look for error in doctrine because I refuse to be blind unlike KandT

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      Example if everybody in a baseball game, football game only concentrated on words and never played the game , there would be no games. You are so busy trying to find error , you are not doing what is requested by Jesus. I find that a great distraction untill

      Its time to settle all matters.

    • profile image

      KingdomCome 

      2 years ago from those of the Ecclesia

      Rich- You will notice in the (NKJV) of Luke 4:18 It states The Spirit of the Lord is upon me........ Now in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, used by the JW, it states in Luke 4:18 Jehovah,s spirit........ As you can see the mistranslation by the Watch Tower bible and Tract Societ has used this mistranslation to mislead people . This example is through the NT in the "Holy Scriptures" bible used by JW. The bible used by JW is VERY misleading. Not just on this point but also a number of other words are used in the New World Translation that changes the context of verses. Such as the word "grace" which you will not find in the New World Translation. Another example is Spirit is translated in the New World Translation as Life Force. This again changes the context of the verses. You will find these two words "life force" used throughout "their" bible. All of these mistranslation allows the JW to mislead people to their way of thinking. You will never hear of a JW teach on subject of Grace. This is why I do not and never will trust the teaching of the JW.

      In many areas throughout the NT the word Lord, God, Spirit of God is replaced with the name Jehovah and yet the NT was writen mostly in Greek text, the name "Jehovah" was hardly used in Greek text. And yet the New World Translation mistranslates it a few thousand times in the NT.

      And if we really what to get picky, God is known by a number of "names" in the OT throughout the Hebrew Tora not "just" the name Jehovah. So why don't the JW use all of them. There is a lot of false teachings on the part of the JW. And the use the New World Translation to do it.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      It amazes me how people seem think they know more about a subject , they attempt to critize with false infomation, if you were correct I would be upset, but I am not because your comment and words do not relate to JW as you would say. I should

      Know.

    • profile image

      KingdomCome 

      2 years ago from those of the Ecclesia

      Rich- I can understand your efforts but in this case it a complete waist of time trying to explain anything to KandT. She will spew her JW false teachings to anyone who will listen. This is typical of the anti-christ false church system.

      Rich, I think it was a good try though.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      Consider the importance of God’s personal name. It Identifies him and he wants that

      .if not then it would be no Tetragrammaton over 7,000 times in the scrolls,

      Jesus also read from the scrolls in the synagogue.

      Lu 4:16 He then went to Nazʹa·reth, where he had been brought up, and according to his custom on the Sabbath day, he entered the synagogue and stood up to read.

      Lu 4:17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written:

      Lu 4:18“Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free,

      Lu 4:19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable

      year.” old testement: (Isa 61:1, 2The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners, 2 To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all who mourn,)

      Lu 4:20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him.

      The scrolls did not miss the name , when Jesus read from Isaiah he had to pronounce the name.

      Now what you should find piculair is after his death , and the last apostles they wanted to erase events and change words.

      Consider that they the Jews deliberately

      Rewrote the scrolls to say what they wished, but they could not change the fact that their where many personal copies made that told the truth. And in the Greek writings the name Jah exist ,

      Notice Revelation.

      King James Version

      Ps 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.

      Byington

      Re 19:6 And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a great crowd and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying “(Hallelujah,) because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign!

      We do as the scriptures and the Angles do We praise his name !

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      Rick Rather I pronounce your name correctly I attempt in respect to pronounce it, I am directly giving you attention.

      A child also may not be able to pronounce a parents name sufficient, but will that child refuse to accept any part of the name of his mother or Father because he can not pronounced accurately. No ! Jehovah is our Heavenly Father and he knows we are addressing him personally. It is very disrespectful to ignore and just refer to him as God, when satan is rebel a god, and the father of Babylonian deities. JEHOVAH revealed his name to Moses, and Jesus also said, and made his name known as he read from the scrolls.

      Joh 17:26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

      The point is our creator deserves to be treated with the upmost respect, hiding his name , and saying take no effort to say it , helps satan. Why do you cause trouble about it. Then use the Tetragrammaton.

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 

      2 years ago from The Ekklesia

      About the 13th century the term "Jehovah" appeared when Christian scholars took the consonants of "Yahweh" and pronounced it with the vowels of "Adonai." This resulted in the sound "Yahowah," which has a Latinized spelling of "Jehovah." The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 1270.

      Interestingly, this fact is admitted in much Jehovah's Witness literature, such as their Aid to Bible Understanding (p. 885).

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 

      2 years ago from The Ekklesia

      I am not the one in error so I have to explain nothing. Because a person believes something that is incorrect doesn't make the truth negative. The beliefs that you have brought up are not your beliefs but that of a religion. I am simply pointing out something that many people, that would include you, do not know the truth of the mater on.

      Take the time to find the truth and don't worry about me, I'm not the one in error on this particular matter. Changing this to an issue about me is a diversion tactic that will not get you to the truth of the matter.

      To be honest here you are not going to believe anything that I say if it disagrees with what you have been taught.

      Here is a good start

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRsbSLU9oFA

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      There is nothing garbage about keeping people alive. your opinion means nothing to me but is very disrespectful of the one who created you. You lack that in your example and words .

    • profile image

      KingdomCome 

      2 years ago from those of the Ecclesia

      More of KandT JW garbage.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      Why you are trying to bring attention to your own negative reason you have not answered the question of the Tetragrammaton.

      Until you can explain why you do not recognize God's name first as the Tetragrammaton (YHWH)

      You refuse the name completely, not supported scripturally.I have not personally brought up anything about your personal religious beliefs, but now you want yo address mine to dodge the

      question.

      If you can not answer in all truth, then do not critize the Name of Jehovah /YHWH.

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 

      2 years ago from The Ekklesia

      I have explained why the group of people that formed a denomination in 1892 or so are wrong about the term Jehovah I don't have an answer for something that has been made important enough to cause division but quite frankly if one doesn't know Christ, according to scripture they will not know His father either, what ever His "real" name is.

      2Timothy 2:23-26 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      Where is your support of the Tetragrammaton , if you do not accepted the name JEHOVAH , then why are you not using this at all YHWH. So now explain what is right about that.

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 

      2 years ago from The Ekklesia

      Well to start with the point is not about what I do, I did not added the word Jehovah after quoting scripture from several bibles. I'm sure people that do this don't do research and determine it is wrong, those that do it are just doing what one has been taught to do. The fact still remains despite how one might want to change the subject, there is no "J" sound in the Hebrew language. Long before 1892 people knew that there were no vowels in the Hebrew language yet they were spoken. So to know how to correctly pronounce the word YHWH you would have to know something about actually speaking the language. To pronounce it with a sound that doesn't even exist in there spoken language is nothing but error. If one perpetuates an error in time it becomes a lie. This can be done intentionally or unintentionally that is the choice made by the individual.

      On a lighter note A group of crows is called a murder, a group of cats is a clowder or a glaring, a group of geese is a gaggle, a group of baboons is a congress, a group that agree on something that is not true are known as liars.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      Then why do you not use the Tetragrammaton which is YHWH in over 7000 times in hebrew. To deny the name at all when it was revealed is a dishonor to the Father.

      As written to Ex 3:15Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘YHWH, the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.,

      The point is you are not recognizing that instaead of criticizing me for using it.

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 

      2 years ago from The Ekklesia

      Any linguist that studies the Hebrew language knows that there is no true "J" sound in the Hebrew language. To know this and continue to type the man made word Johova confirms you are correct it leads to a dead end and despite anything else you might say no one will take you serious because you chose to perpetuate the false doctrine that God's name is Johova. This puts you in the same group that believe man's doctrine about the trinity. It is a different lie but a lie none the less.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 

      2 years ago

      You brought out some very helpful points

      Thank you for sharing.

      To contribute to your great explanation.

      We can remember God is eternal, he does not die or was ever born.

      1Ti 1:17 Now to the King of eternity(Jehovah), incorruptible, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

      (As stated King of Eternity)

      (Byington) translation

      Hab 1:12 Are you not from of old, Jehovah? God of my devotion, you will not die. Jehovah, you established him for judgment and planted him as a rock for correction.

      But Jesus is different he died .

      Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn(Jesus) of all creation;

      Also consider they could not be same one combined, because their mental will is separate.

      Notice !

      Joh 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, (not my own will ), but the will of him who sent me.(Jehovah)

      Based on this we can see that there are two different beings. Who could not be a trinity doctrin.

      Because they are not equal in having the same will, Jesus is instructed by the father.

      And Jesus died, he was not eternal,

      Next Jesus makes it clear the Father is greater.

      King James Version

      Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for (my Father is greater than I.)

      In math we know that greater is not equal

      That is truth.

      Do we believe the bible or do we believe man made doctrine.

      The bible will keep you living.

      Doctrins only lead you to a dead end.

    • PlanksandNails profile imageAUTHOR

      PlanksandNails 

      3 years ago

      Brownie,

      Here is an article I wrote that may answer your question.

      http://hub.me/acBVW

    • profile image

      brownie 

      3 years ago

      Why believe the Bible at all?

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 

      4 years ago from The Ekklesia

      "I will try to maintain a precedence that is set forth in the original languages of Scripture as the English translations have been tampered with."

      The tampering of Gods Word started in the garden with Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?"

      Later God told Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

      The twisting continues to this day, anything to lead us away from God. They even Try to use His only begotten Son to deceive us.

      Nice writing

      Rich

    • PlanksandNails profile imageAUTHOR

      PlanksandNails 

      4 years ago

      Neil,

      I believe that we cannot just read our English Bibles and say, "This should be plain to anyone who reads English. The Hebrew only intensifies the English. If we just read the Scripture for what it says, there just is not any way around it."

      This statement is from the author in part 2 of "Who is the Biblical Jesus."

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Who-Is-th...

      The problem with saying this is that our English language does not convey precisely and accurately what we may think it says. That is why lexicons, interlinear and concordances are crucial in pursuing the meaning and definitions to analyze the words from the original source language. If we fail look at the original language in a deeper way, it will lead to imposing our own eisegesis as you have mentioned into the text.

      Thanks for explaining the differences between the two words.

      God Bless.

    • PlanksandNails profile imageAUTHOR

      PlanksandNails 

      4 years ago

      Flpalermo,

      I believe that Jesus and the Father are of one spirit just as a husband and wife are of one flesh.

      Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become ONE flesh. - Genesis 2:24

      But he who is joined to the Lord becomes ONE SPIRIT with him. - 1 Corinthians 6:17

      When the Trinitarian points to,

      I and the Father are ONE. - John 10:30

      They have no understanding except to claim Jesus is God, but what we find later in John as Jesus is praying to the Father is,

      That they may ALL be ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that THEY MAY BE ONE even AS WE ARE ONE, I in them and you in me, that they may become PERFECTLY ONE, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. - John 17:21-23

      It should be understood that Jesus is not saying he is God, but he is one with God the Father and hopes all mankind will be one in unity with Him too. The Father can live in us just as HE lives in Jesus Christ. We can become sons and daughters begotten of Him by His Spirit just as Jesus was.

      God's Spirit is the "Word"of God that dwells among all true believes. We too, who are begotten of the Father, are the lights of the Gospel just as Jesus Christ.

    • PlanksandNails profile imageAUTHOR

      PlanksandNails 

      4 years ago

      Graceinus,

      Thanks for pointing that out the surrounding context.

      *AND* from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. - Revelation 1:5

      It is clear as you said that Jesus Christ is separate from verse 4.

      What I find interesting is that the beast is described as WAS, IS NOT, and IS, but God the Father as you pointed out is, IS, WAS and IS.

      I have not studied deeper into what these distinctions mean, but when I saw the trinity diagram, the IS NOT and IS jumped out.

      Thanks for your thoughts, they are appreciated.

    • profile image

      Neil Braithwaite 

      4 years ago

      Aaron -

      You allude to proper "exegesis" when studying and interpreting the scripture. The author of the post you are rebutting (lifegate) displays "eisegesis" in his interpretation of the scriptures.

      He chooses not to seek the truth in this matter, rather to defend his position by injecting his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.

      The Trinity Doctrine is nothing more than a doctrine of man that has been passed down and defended by those who have been given over to their blindness.

      6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

      ‘This people honors Me with their lips,

      But their heart is far away from Me.

      7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,

      Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

      8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.” Mark 7:6-8

      14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:14-16

    • profile image

      flpalermo 

      4 years ago

      Allow me also to put my two cents in also:

      Once again, we have those who want to create God in THEIR own image, as Traditional Pagan Christianity does, and always will.

      It is difficult to break away from our “programming” in the affairs of this world, which include religion.

      The Trinity doctrine is itself a god which is worshipped by many.

      John 1:18 No man hath seen God [the Father] at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

      Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, except the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

      In the Bible, God the Father reveals through Jesus Christ, the following revelation about Himself:

      God [Elohim] is a family.

      Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole “family” in heaven and earth is named,

      Elohim are two beings which exist in a Father-Son relationship, who are eternal Spirit, uncreated. Both members are referred together as God:

      John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [the Father] and the Word was God [family].

      John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

      John 1:3 All things were made by him [Jesus] and without him was not anything made that was made.

      Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God [the Father], who created all things by Jesus Christ:

      Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

      John 4:24 God [the Father] is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

      John 20:17 Jesus said unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

      John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God.

      1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

      Jesus is not God the Father. He is the son of God the Father. Both are the God Family into which we all can be born.

    • profile image

      graceinus 

      4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      PandN- I have been following the past three articles closely and it has been very interesting. However, I do need to throw my two cents worth in for a moment. I believe Revelation 1:4 (in part) from Him who IS and who WAS and who IS to come ".... This is a reference to God the Father and any one referring this to be Jesus Christ would, in my opinion be wrong. Clearing in verse 5 it then identifies Jesus Christ separately.

      If one looks further for conformation of Rev. 1:4 then all they would need to do is read the same thing almost word for word in Revelation 4:8 (second half) " Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God Almighty, who WAS and IS and IS to come."

      Clearly this is referring to God the Father, not Jesus Christ. So I believe Rev. 1:4 and Rev. 4:8 both are referring to God the Father. Based on this information I don't believe the trinity doctrine can be supported by these verses. To do so one would have to take Rev.1:4 out of context.

      I don't believe you brought up this point yet, unless I somehow over looked it.

      Good article and God bless.

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