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Angry Atheist? That's Funny...

Updated on September 19, 2014

So I have been a part of Hub Pages for a number of months now. It seems to me that this site might have had over flowing traffic at one point, but now it seems to be limited to very certain topics. One of those topics, Religion and Philosophy, I happen to take part in quite a bit. When I originally started out in this topic, I was interested to see how the mind set of theists work, since I have never actually spoken in depth with anyone about faith in general (it honestly has never come up with anyone. Ever).


My experiences with that have been...interesting.


I initially started out in the forums due to not being limited to a small character limit like in the Q&A section. I read the...logic of some theists and decided to question their logic. About 99% of the time, that line of questioning involved “Can you prove such and such to be true?”. Wouldn't you know it, about 99% of the time they could not prove what they were saying to be true without using the Bible or saying the Holy Spirit tells them it's true.


Interesting. Should I find it a coincidence that imaginary friends also agree completely with whatever you want to be true as a child?

The Bible

The Bible is not fact. Does it contain factual information? I have no reason to doubt that it does, but when talking snakes, men who live for centuries, global floods that leave behind no evidence of ever actually occurring, and incestuous re-population of the earth (twice) come into play, the Bible rockets over into the realm of fiction. Think of it this way, if the Bible is truth, then so is Harry Potter, Twilight, and every other fantasy book out there. I have read quite a number of fantasy books over the years, and some of the stories I've seen that the Bible contains far surpass most books I have read.


If you believe that the Bible is complete and total fact and claim that it is complete and total fact, you must prove that it is complete and total fact. Once you make that claim, the burden of proof is on you and you alone. You cannot turn around and tell people who do not believe you to prove that what you are saying is not true, since you haven't even proved what you are saying to be true yet. If I went out and told someone a fire breathing dragon burned my house down and stole my princess, they have absolutely zero reason to believe anything I say. Why? Because dragons, as depicted in fantasy books anyway, have not been proven to exist. So what sense does it make for me to look at them as if they were the crazy one and ask them to disprove that a dragon actually came, burned my house down, and made off with my princess?


None. At All.

Dictionary Time

I find it concerning that people either do not seem to know the definition of the words they use or...do not know the definitions of the words they use. As a result, I wish to define (with Google) the definition of these three words: Theist, Atheist, and Agnostic.


Theist – someone who holds a belief in the existence of a god or gods.


Atheist - a person who lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.


Agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.


Now I want to combine two of these words and give a definition in my own words, rather than use Google.


Agnostic Atheist – someone who does not deny the possibility of a god, but does not believe in any one particular god or gods.


If you had to put a label on my religious standing, an agnostic atheist would have to be it. For the past few years I have been identifying my position as an agnostic, but in regards to the definition up above, that doesn't actually explain my standing on things since you can be agnostic about anything (not just religion) that cannot be substantiated in reality. I certainly do not hold any credibility to most forms of god that come from organized religion. Holy texts like the Bible do a fine enough job all on their own of discrediting not only the existence but attributes of the very god they depict so that really comes as no surprise.

The Crux Of This Hub

I have not once, knowingly at least, completely denied the existence of some kind of god/deity/higher being. Ever. So it comes as a rather large surprise that I have been called an angry atheist multiple times on this site, mostly by the same people.


I do not see how I can be considered angry when 1. All I did was ask legitimate questions (Ex: How was the earth repopulated if Noah and his family were the only survivors of the flood?). 2. After asking such questions, I was either ignored, subtly (if not outright) told I would be going to hell/suffer the consequences of not accepting Jesus, or 3. Told that I have no idea what I am talking about if I cannot disprove what they are claiming as fact. You know, because they did such a fantastic job proving what they claim is indeed fact. I guess that's why I asked for them to prove it to begin with right?


Also, to call me an angry “atheist” is still wrong. I would have less of an issue with that if they actually used the correct terms, rather than just assuming that simply because I asked legitimate questions countering their faith and quite obviously went out of my way to separate myself from a traditional atheist (even going so far as to tell them that I am not a regular atheist. Multiple times), that not only am I an atheist but a morally degenerate one full of anger that somehow masks my true, hidden belief of god. Not just any god, but the Christian god specifically.


Please, take your head out of that place of the human anatomy where the sun don't shine. Signs that it might be shoved extra far up that certain place? If run on sentences somehow render entire sentences completely illegible. Yes, rather than counter any actual points I made about certain sections of faith, I have had someone, repeatedly, claim that since I had a run on sentence they couldn't understand a word of it, to then say I am the one not interested in listening to other viewpoints.


A run on sentence...separated by commas (which I admit were probably not used 100% correctly)... separated by spaces to compensate for possibly incorrect comma use...somehow makes all the words baby talk. The wind betwixt the cheeks must be deafening.


I also cannot comprehend the logic that Christians are being persecuted in the United States (where I live) and that it is so clear the Christian god exists due to Christianity being the only religion criticized.


Gee, I cannot possibly imagine why Christianity, in a nation where 77% of the adult population identify as being Christian in some way shape and form, would be the main religion to be criticized. It's not like there are laws, in a secular nation where no one religion is supposed to be favored by Government (as per the Constitution), prohibiting gay marriage that are solely based on the biblical principle that homosexuals are abominations or anything right?


A little bit of enlightenment as well, if someone of some other religion claims truth that has no basis in fact...they will be criticized and asked for proof as well. Shocking right?

Why A Specific God Probably Does Not Exist

If one did, it is either buried underneath all the other “obviously correct” religions that claim their god exists (and probably predates all current major religions, voiding every single one of them), or a specific god simply does not exist. I don't see how admitting the possibility of the latter, openly on several occasions, somehow constitutes me being an atheist. Oh that's right, I disagree so bam I'm an evil atheist that will be the downfall of the nation, right next to gay people. Logic.


I really do not care which explanation might be true in regards to the origin of life/universe. Whether it be the big bang or that some kind of god poofed things into existence, knowing the answer will not affect how I live my life. Heck, it could even be some other third answer that no one has thought of yet, and still it would not affect how I live my life. I do not hold any preference for either answer because neither have been proven to be true.


So imagine my annoyance at people who claim that one answer is absolutely true, throw in some of their own wishy wash needs that aren't even based in reality, and then tell everyone else who disagrees with them that they are not only wrong but will suffer eternal consequences they have no way of knowing about. You know, cause they haven't died yet. Just because I find it annoying that my soul is supposedly condemned because I, rightfully, do not believe in stories that clearly seem to be fiction, does not mean I take debates on the Internet (the domain of cute cat videos, to put things in perspective) seriously enough to actually affect my outside life. Participating in the debates is interesting, and has recently become much more fun now that I don't actually take people who cannot backup what they say properly with any kind of seriousness anymore.


I spent pages of comments in the forums asking people to prove what they said to be true, and each time I was told that I was not interested in their answer and just looking for fights. So I finally decided to not give a damn anymore. If you cannot back up what you say, I will continue to point out the flaws in your argument as I see them. Once you have had enough, you can exit the conversation. Of course, after passively implying that my soul is destined for hellfire and that you will be (condescendingly) praying that I see the light in order to avoid said hellfire. At that point, you put your own foot in your mouth and most likely prove all the points I might have been making, since they are usually the same for most people I come across.

Conclusion

To recap:


  1. The Bible is not absolute fact. If you claim it is, prove it. Completely. Using the Bible as proof of the Bible is called circular logic I believe. Fire is cold because there is a book that says fire is cold. Doesn't make any sense.

  2. I am an agnostic atheist. I do not deny the existence of a god, but I do not hold a belief in any particular god or gods.

  3. I am not an angry atheist simply because I ask questions that actually make you think about your faith. Talking about religion does not mean I secretly believe in it nor does it mean I take the conversations I have here super seriously. Not that that last one is an actual argument for anything, but its been used a number of times already.

  4. Christianity is not automatically proven to be true by being the primary religion to be criticized in a nation where 50% of the adult population at minimum identify as being Christian. That's like saying The Flying Spaghetti Monster exists because people talk about and criticize it.

  5. A nonspecific god is more likely to exist than a specific god, simply due to the staggering amount of specific gods that are thought to exist. They all cannot be right since they claim all others are wrong.


My thoughts on the matter and all. Provided your only thoughts on this aren't "Is that it?" or "I'm surprised this got published", feel free to comment.

Does Questioning Something Mean You Are Angry About Or Secretly Believe In It?

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      Moral Man 2 years ago

      Dear friend you have some good arguments and I partly agree with it. So who really rules the world, God or Satan? Could it be they are both ruling the world? The Bible gives contradictory answers and is unclear. Im familiar with the verse that says Satan is the god of this world. Why does God allow it?

      The mystery of evil in the world continues to confound. Please explain Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7 in the King James Bible where God says "I make peace and create evil." Other Bible translations substitute other words instead of evil, such as disaster, calamity, catastrophe, misery, misfortune, woe. But isn't disaster a form of evil? Isn't a being who causes disaster himself evil? Some people say that this verse doesn't mean that God creates sin, but rather Natural evil is what God creates, such as cancer and tsunamis. Theres an important distinction between Natural evil and Moral evil, or sin. Natural evil is more or less impersonal, more or less blind, more or less indiscriminate, and amoral. Moral evil is willful, conscious, cognitive, and intentional and is considered a lot more serious. Moral evil is the evil of humans, Satan, and demons.

      The Devil defense is actually the best explanation for why God allows evil and suffering, but it still leaves some disturbing questions. Firstly, God is the one who created all things and who created all humans, and not Satan and demons. This would make God to blame for diseases, centipedes, mosquitoes, hurricanes, tsunamis,etc. And it would make God at least partly to blame for Human evil and sin. Secondly, its God who inflicts physical torture and killing in the Bible 99 percent of the time. Only in Job does Satan inflict physical torture and killing in the Bible and this was still under God's knowledge and permission. Satan is better known as liar, tempter, and deceiver rather than a physical torturer. I personally find a Satan who inflicts physical torture and killing a lot scarier than a Satan who whispers in our ears to do forbidden things. Some blame all Natural evil on Satan and demons, and blame all Moral evil or Human evil and sin on these fallen angels. But why is God tolerating this? God should not be allowing these evil beings to corrupt, torment, and ruin His creation. God should not be playing a chess game with Satan and demons with humanity and the animal kingdom caught in the middle of this immoral, insane feud. Why in the first place create this certain angel who became Satan who proceeded to ruin God's creation? Why have him around at all? Why tolerate this archfiend and arch criminal? Maybe there's a Dualism and God is not in control and maybe Satan and demons are stronger and smarter than given credit for. Or maybe God has an evil side in Him, or maybe God isn't all wise, or isn't all mighty, or maybe God is insane? Or He just doesn't care? God's deficiency is the Devil's opportunity. Why does it seem like God is losing to this certain angel He created? The world is a cesspool of evil, and has been for thousands to millions of years. Thank you for reading.

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      @MM

      One common misperception needs to be cleared up first. Many people think of Almighty God as the ruler of this world, the one who is in direct control of everything. “Not one atom or molecule of the universe is outside his active rule,” said the president of one theological seminary. Does the Bible really teach that?

      Not at all. Many are surprised to learn what the Bible actually says about who rules the world. For example, 1 John 5:19 states: “We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the Evil one.”(WNT) Who is this Evil one? Jesus Christ identified him as Satan the Devil, whom he called “the ruler of the world.” (John 14:30) Now, does that not make sense? Satan is cruel, deceptive, and hateful—traits that underlie much of the suffering that people experience. Why, though, does God allow Satan to rule?

      Just how might an adoring and capable mother or father really feel if they were openly charged of being deceptive to their young children , abusing their authority over them , as well as withholding what they need from them ? Could they disprove those slanderous allegations by physically attacking their accuser ? Certainly not ! Without a doubt , by responding like this , they would give credibility to the charges .

      This depiction really helps to clarify Jehovah God’s strategy for managing a challenge brought up against him at the dawn of man's historical past in a region identified as Eden . There God Almighty announced to the very first pair of human beings , Adam and Eve , a fantastic undertaking . These were to fill up the globe , take care of it , and thus transform it into a worldwide paradise . ( Genesis 1 :28 )

      Truly being a big-hearted Father , Jehovah handed Adam and Eve an exquisite haven home with all of its succulent fruits . Just one tree was not in bounds for them—“the tree of the knowledge of good and bad .” By avoiding this tree , Adam and Eve would certainly display their absolute trust in their Father , accepting that he had the right to determine that which was right and wrong for his children .—Genesis 2 :16 , 17 .

      Lamentably , one amongst God’s spirit sons , inspired by the want to be worshiped , led Eve to believe that when she consumed the outlawed fruit , she would never perish . ( Genesis 2 :17 ; 3 :1-5 ) And so , this wicked angel , Satan , flagrantly contradicted God , in effect calling him a liar ! To boot , Satan proceeded to criticize God of withholding critical facts from Adam and Eve . Mankind , Satan suggested , could determine on their own what is actually good and what is bad . Stated more forcefully , Satan charged God of being an unfit Sovereign and Father and additionally indicated that he , Satan , could perform a significantly better job himself .

      Through the use of those astute and fatal mendacities , this angel fashioned himself into Satan the Devil . These particular names stand for “Resister” and “Slanderer .” What exactly did Adam and Eve do, then ? They sided with Satan , turning their backs on God .—Genesis 3 :6 .

      Jehovah could have eradicated the rebels just then . But bear in mind , as mentioned above previously in our representation , these kinds of difficulties can never be worked out through violent retaliation . Take into account too that when Satan confronted God Almighty , innumerable angels were paying attention .

      By enticing Adam and Eve into deciding on autonomy from their Maker , Satan established a family which was not in fact self-reliant but , as you see , under his command . Prompted , consciously or unwittingly , by their “father ,” the Devil , this family would pick and choose its own objectives as well as values . ( John 8 :44 ) Still , might this way of life bring them genuine liberty as well as enduring happiness and joy ? Jehovah understood full well that it would never . Even so , he left the rebels to go after their ill-fated ambition , for only by doing so could the problems brought up in Eden be completely resolved for all time .

      For upwards of 6 ,000 years now , humankind has erected one society after another , attempting more and more varieties of rulership as well as rules of behavior . Do you happen to be overjoyed with the outcome ? Is the human family actually joyful , undisturbed , and united ? Undeniably , the answer is absolutely no ! In its place , wars , famines , catastrophes , disease , together with unspeakable loss of life has besieged humanity , inflicting “futility ,” “pain ,” and “groaning ,” much like the Holy Bible reported long ago .—Romans 8 :19-22 ; Ecclesiastes 8 :9 . Fundamentally , "People ruin their lives by their own foolishness and then are angry at the LORD ." -Proverbs 19 :3 ( NLT )

      Nonetheless , some might wonder , ‘Why has God not averted these disasters ?’ Honestly , that would certainly be an injustice , as it would undoubtedly blur the issue by creating the impression that rebelling against God is without deadly repercussions . Accordingly , Jehovah has not been in the background protecting against all the crimes and calamities that results , explicitly or in a roundabout way , from disobedience to him . Jehovah could never ever be party to the fatal myth that Satan’s approach could turn out well ! Notwithstanding , Jehovah has not been apathetic to what has transpired . Truth be told , he continues to be extremely active , as we shall subsequently appreciate .

      Since the rebellion in Eden , he has long been very active . Case in point , he inspired Bible amanuensis to document his guarantee that a future “seed” would undoubtedly defeat Satan with everyone who allied with him . ( Genesis 3 :15 ) On top of that , via that Seed , God would constitute a governing administration , a heavenly Kingdom , which would bless obedient people , stop all causes of misery and even death itself .—Genesis 22 :18 ; Psalm 46 :9 ; 72 :16 ; Isaiah 25 :8 ; 33 :24 ; Daniel 7 :13 , 14 .

      As a step towards the fulfillment of those wonderful promises, Jehovah sent to the earth the One who would become the primary Ruler of that Kingdom. This one was none other than Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (Galatians 3:16) In accord with God’s purpose for him, Jesus focused his teaching on God’s Kingdom. (Luke 4:43) In fact, Christ provided a living preview of what he will accomplish as King of that Kingdom. He fed hungry thousands, healed the sick, resurrected the dead, and even showed his power over the natural elements by calming a violent storm. (Matthew 14:14-21; Mark 4:37-39; John 11:43, 44) Concerning Jesus, the Bible states: “No matter how many the promises of God are, they have become Yes by means of him.”—2 Corinthians 1:20.

      Those who listen to Jesus and come “out of the world”—the system of things that is estranged from God and ruled by Satan—are welcomed into Jehovah’s family. (John 15:19) This global family of true Christians is governed by love, committed to peace, and marked by determination to eradicate any trace of bigotry and racism in its midst.—Malachi 3:17, 18; John 13:34, 35.

      Instead of upholding the present world, sedulous Christians support and proclaim God’s Kingdom in obedience to Jesus’ command recorded at Matthew 24:14. Think: Who preach the “good news of the kingdom” worldwide? Who have refused, as a worldwide spiritual family, to engage in warfare and divisive national and tribal disputes? And who let God’s Word guide their conduct, whether its lofty standards are popular or not? (1 John 5:3)

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      Moral Man 2 years ago

      I consider myself neither a Theist, nor agnostic, nor atheist. I call my belief Deficient Theism, which I coined myself. Its sort of similar to Deism or a weakened form of Theism. A deficient God explains why the world is filled with evil, misery, and death.

      Whoever or whatever created Natural evils such as cancer, stonefish, centipedes, malaria, ebola, tooth decay, stroke, aneurysm, heart disease, execrement, hurricanes, tsunamis, is a criminal, insane lunatic, and idiot. Whoever created diseases is a criminal worse than Hitler and is immoral, amoral scum.

      The Bible God, as I have wrote many times elsewhere, has shown more cruelty and has caused and created more suffering to His creation all because two ancient humans ate a forbidden fruit which He orchestrated for them to eat. He stupidly allows Adam and Eve's sin to spread to ALL future unborn humans which is unfair, and He curses and punishes the ENTIRE creation with Natural evils for the sin of two people. This God has no common sense, has no reasoning, has no heart, has no pity, has no mercy, has no morals(except that of His mouth), and has no conscience. A clam has more sense than this God, and a clam has more compassion than this God.

      This monstrous God has a Jekyll and Hyde personality and is both good and evil. Don't believe it Christian? Read Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7 in the King James Bible where God says "I make peace and create evil." If you creationists insist on believing God created everything then you have to admit He created evil, cruelty, defects, grossness, stupidity. The same God who created lovely roses also created the demonic Ebola microbe. The creator is full of contrasts and contradictions, and His intelligence goes hand in hand with His stupidity.

      No one has total free will. Nature and nurture(our environment)also dictates and determines human behavior whether bad or good, and there is no escape from Nature and nurture. So as sinful and as evil as people are, we are not totally to blame. We did not create our sinful Nature. If God hates human sin so much then He would not be allowing it ad nauseam ad infinitum and He would not be allowing Satan and demons to corrupt humans and He would not have allowed Adam and Eve's sin to ruin human nature. And free will does not justify turning the world into a hellhole and horror movie. Not in my book preacher.

      Its tiring writing the same things a hundred times. The Bible is full of contradictions, is vague, ambiguous, unclear, incomprehensible. The end results are centuries of division and confusion. God killing 70,000 men just because David took a census and killing David's baby for David's sin and threatening people with turning into cannibals and mothers shall eat their babies and women shall be raped if they sin are all embarrassing. Religious folks use the Devil defense or blame Satan and demons to explain Natural evil and explain Human evil. Well, who created these evil beings? Why is God allowing these evil beings to tamper, corrupt, torment, and ruin His creation?

      Animals also suffer and die from both Natural evils and from Human evils. Animals have suffered and died and many have become extinct for millions of years of history and prehistory, and long before Adam and Eve's sin and long before humanity. It just doesn't make sense for a loving God to allow this.

      According to Fundamentalists, billions of people are doomed to hell for one reason or another to be tortured forever. Fire, worms, a sewer like stench, suffocation or inability to breathe, giant spiders and giant snakes, being mutilated and sliced by demons, and being buried alive inside a claustrophobic, coffin like, furnace like environment. Imagine being buried alive forever inside a closed coffin and being burned by fire at the same time. Its diabolical, sadistic, Satanic cruelty. Unimaginable cruelty and horror. What kind of monster inflicts such tortures? What kind of criminal does this? The human mind cannot imagine such horrific cruelty. I live in endless fear. The Devil and evil rules this world and not a loving God.

      All these different religions and all these different versions of Christianity to choose and confuse, and if we choose wrong then its hell. So salvation and interpreting the Bible becomes an eenie meenie minie mo guessing game, and if we guess wrong then its hell. What kind of God does this? Why make reading the Bible like jigsaw puzzle? Why make reading and interpreting the Bible like a riddle? Why allow division and confusion over religion? This God has no solution to offer us and allows us to remain confused and allows us to remain in our sins, allows us to suffer and die, and allows Satan and demons to tamper, corrupt, torment, and ruin His creation. It's a pitiful execuse for a God. Its criminally embarrassing. This God is a jackass and a jerkass. Cruelty, carelessness, negligence, insanity, stupidity, irresponsibleness, incompetence. I have to blush for shame at the screwup which is this God. This God is selfish, egomaniacal, narcissististic, insane, immoral, amoral, and cruel to the umpteenth degree. That's why the Devil is winning.

    • Akriti Mattu profile image

      Akriti Mattu 2 years ago from Shimla, India

      Loved your post :)

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 3 years ago

      @Link

      @Austin

      So glad I stumbled upon this hub! Here's what you've been looking for: http://bit.ly/1197U6R

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Link10103: "At this point, i am getting angry. Oddly enough, it has nothing to do with religion. Funny that." A tongue-in-cheek statement that gets taken seriously but misconstrued!:

      Lybrah: "It has EVERYTHING to do with religion. You miss the boat, Link."

      Nah...that anger is everything to do with nonsensical humans that peddle religion but call it "faith." The foot-in-the-door salesman.... anything to trap a potential customer... (or convert)..... coax someone into believing nonsense and get them to see it as real.

      Well, Lybrah, at least here in this Hub we can think for ourselves. Hence our humour. Thanks for making us laugh.

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      At this point, it's just laughable that you are making the rounds to every hub or Q&A on which I've commented, but enough is enough. I'm going to bed!

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 3 years ago from West By God

      OMG do I see someones blunder!!!!!

      Lybrah 4 days ago from Washington, DC Level 4 Commenter

      Take a "Grow Up and stop behaving like a Child" class. Deleting comments is immature, at its best.

      Now how can anyone take her seriously?

      ...and she just called me demented on another post. Really!

      Anyway back to the subject I often ask or pose questions and get told that I am angry or that I have some chip on my shoulder. I have no idea where they get that from because I am not mad at anything. In fact I often wonder how the church gets ppl to think that way...is it some form of mass hypnotist or something?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      It's amazing that editors get paid big bucks to delete stuff. Whining about it is immature.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 3 years ago

      I actually say what is causing me to get angry and you deny it, as if you knew my thoughts. Gee willikers.

      As for deleting comments, one of the people you agree whole heartedly with does that on a regular basis. Would he be considered immature?

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Take a "Grow Up and stop behaving like a Child" class. Deleting comments is immature, at its best.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      No, Lybrah, he is actually angry at you specifically, and a couple of other people. You guys just do NOT get it.

      I deleted your "answer" to my latest question, because you did NOT answer the questions that was asked. AGAIN! Go take a reading comprehension class, why don't you?

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      Lybrah 3 years ago

      It has EVERYTHING to do with religion. You miss the boat, Link.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 3 years ago

      I have repeated myself so many times to the same people i no longer care anymore, i actually find it interesting to find new ways of saying the same thing over and over just to have it ignored. As far as i see though peeples, nothing you said has been covered much.

      In the context of this hub, i have been called an angry atheist simply because i disagree/question people's beliefs, which annoys me to no end. Then, as if reading this hub was unheard of, Lybrah continues to assert that i am angry. To follow that up, Tsadjatko then gives me the "true" reason as if it were fact as to why i do not follow christianity specifically, yet only speculates as to why i do not follow other religions.

      At this point, i am getting angry. Oddly enough, it has nothing to do with religion. Funny that

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      peeples, there is a difference between being angry and being motivated to affect change. Religionists repeat everything they do and say over and over again until they believe it as truth. When some of them act out by killing their own children (because the mother though her 3 year old was gay), to the jihadist who cuts off the heads of "infidels", this is not something they can control. To react to them in anger is something a reasonable person should not do. We need to educate and retrain their minds.

    • peeples profile image

      Peeples 3 years ago from South Carolina

      Warning- I have read very few of the comments due to the quantity, so my apologies if I repeat something that has already been said. Link, I have to admit that I enjoyed this hub. However I am left with one question for everyone. What is so wrong about being an "Angry Atheist"? Shouldn't we all be angry in a sense? Religions use their unproven belief in a god to control, manipulate, and take advantage of people. Laws are written that absolutely violate our constitution in the name of religions. People die while the theist tells us all how loving their god is. People find excuse after excuse for why their god allows the pain of the world. So why not be an angry atheist? I am an angry atheist. My best friend is not allowed to marry the person she loves because laws have been made that violate her rights as an American SOLELY because of believers. If their God is real and I am wrong I can guarantee I will be one pissed off bitch when the time comes to meet that god. After all IF that god is real, he has allowed the crap of this world to exist. Preventable pain would exist at the hands of this almighty creator. So while I value this hub, and it's message, I think as a whole I disagree about the whole Angry atheist part. I am an angry agnostic atheist and I am quite okay with that. Now that I said it I am sure someone will assume that means I live my life in anger. That isn't the case. I live my life looking at reality. Reality is, If I am wrong and god is real, we have a really crappy creator.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Im sitting at a cafe beneath remarkable concrete/steel/glass construction. Built with ingenuity by man.

      A sparrow lands on the stool beside me. I consider its form: Feathers; tiny clawed feet; sharp and fast vision; wings; an oil gland just above its tail, for water repellant feather cleaning....but these are common features of most species of bird! Whether eagle or theBee Hummingbird of the Caribbean.

      So, what links them? A common Creator? - possible in our human understanding? A function of the Laws of Physics? As we try to understand them? Or some other possibility that so far is beyond our understanding? Who knows?

      For me, it's sufficient to sit in awe - admire - wonder. Just let the mind play - have fun - the Lord won't mind, surely.

      But there is no judgment needed. This World is IT, with Me a part of it.

      Coffee almost finished. Must walk, admire some more.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Then he must have nothing better to do, Lybrah!......

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      Lybrah 3 years ago

      @Jonny The Lord never gets tired of hearing us praise His name.

      @Link I was wrong--the author's name is Jonathan Cahn. Not James. Read it!

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Oh Jonny - I am wiping away tears from laughing so hard. Do you think they would even look into a mirror while they are practicing their Christianic Worship services?

      Lybrah - Seriously? The Harbinger? Oh, you "End World" People are soooo predictable.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Hahaha. I can just imagine Tsad or Lybah in one of those quaint yet pathetic "extemporary" prayer sessions supposedly talking to "Gard." (Or Jeeeesus)

      "We just thank you Loorrrd...." (this said so many times that the Lord would become mghty Bored) . "And I just praise you Loorrd that you stopped me from sinning last night....I only wanted to kiss her. Honestly! " "Thank you Loorrd for letting me line up at you gate for entry into your Heaven. I hope you will be there to meet me so we can stand watch as my enemies are shunted off to Hell...thank you Loorrd!"

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      I'm working on it. In the meantime, read The Harbinger by James Cahn

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Thank you Link, oh powerful keeper of the hub page comments, you are so merciful!

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      So Lybrah, any luck with those recent satanic baby sacrifices?

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      No, it's YOU. Trust me.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      I give up. I should have given up long ago. It's obvious that tsad cannot answer simple questions without quoting 'religious speak' and linking to copied content.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      If your comment wasn't an essays worth, yes i would delete it simply because you blatantly ignored what i said in regards to links.

      I fully understand now that you cannot grasp simple concepts, especially if they happen to disagree with your ideas.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Ah So star you have decided to move on from Egyptians and cavemen to a coherent question, are we making progress? Let's see.

      That's an interesting question and one I'm glad to answer despite the spirit of condescension in which you present it. Calling a spade a spade is not malice or snobbery, just telling it like it is, but implying it is malice or snobbery is snobbery in itself and a false accusation. However, I also find it interesting that you (and Link) are so concerned about "worship". It seems that either you have a real problem with the idea of worshiping anyone besides yourselves or more likely you lack understanding of what Christian worship is so I will try to enlighten you. Worship is not some powerful God forcing you to bow down to his might as I suspect that may be the way you look at it.

      Worship isn't for God's benefit, it is for our benefit, to keep us mindful of him, to allow us to express our gratitude for all he has done and for the miracle of our salvation and by it reminding ourselves of his greatness it grows our confidence in him.

      It would help to understand what Christian Worship if read the scriptures pertaining to it, that is if Link can restrain himself from deleting another url. http://www.openbible.info/topics/worship

      Of course if you are offended by scripture you don't have to go there as I have answered your question.

      When I am getting a little down in the dumps I start considering all the things God has done for me. I start thanking Him for the blessings He has given me, that’s praise, that is worship. When I focus on Him, worship Him, praise Him, worship places my focus on God.

      Worship increases my understanding of God. I praise God for what He has done for me. Understanding that God is able, I praise God for what he will do for me, the blessings that I have. The Bible says: Praise God from whom all blessing flow. Praise Him all creatures here below. Praise Him above the heavenly host. Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Why would anyone not want to praise and worship such a God.

      Worship helps build my confidence in God

      Take for example the song of praise and worship from Mosses:

      "God is my strength, God is my song, and, yes! God is my salvation. This is the kind of God I have and I’m telling the world! This is the God of my father— I’m spreading the news far and wide!" Exodus 15:2 (MSG) And why shouldn’t Mosses express his confidence in God – he has already seen what God is capable of. God is able to release the chosen people from the bond of slavery - He did it. NOT A FAIRY TALE as archeologists are discovering today.

      So star, I hope you get to read this before Link deletes it as I did not seek his "permission" first to provide a Link. Not that any of this will mean anything to you but so that you know I did answer your question, when it made sense.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Here is a reasonable question for you then - What benefits do you gain from worshipping your God? Please answer without malice and snobbery if possible.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Johnny, you think star's question about Egyptians and cavemen is a reasonable question? It isn't even coherent. Cavemen had a religion they never gave up???? If you atheists (or agnostics, whatever you call yourselves) believe in evolution then according to your belief we all came from cavemen so obviously somewhere along the line they must have given up their religion. Egyptians and cavemen, yeah like that has anything to do with what I have spoken about.

      You ask "Could it possibly be that some people are turned away from being christian by some people who claim to be christian?"

      The real question isn't is it possible but does it make sense? Sure it is possible and it happens all the time but it is stupid, so stupid that it begs for a deeper reason, the moral reason.

      Your saying "who claim to be christian" implies you think they may not be? or you don't care whether they actually are behaving as Christians should? Why would you turn away from Christianity if they are not really Christians or why wouldn't you investigate Christianity first to see what it is really about instead of basing your feelings on how people act who may not be Christians but profess to be (or who could just be in error)? Christianity makes no one perfect in this life.

      I suppose if you went to a doctor who turned out to be a quack you'd never seek medical advice again? Good luck with that reasoning. Hope you don't get really sick.

      Anyone who is turned off to Christianity using the excuse that some Christians who "claim to be Christians" turn them off is actually a prime candidate for their true motivation being the moral reason.

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      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      And when Austinstar puts a reasonable question into the discussion you call it a "looney" question. Hark which pot is calling the kettles black! You continue to entertain us with laughter, tsadjatco!

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Tsad, a straight-forward question for you.

      Could it possibly be that some people are turned away from being christian by some people who claim to be christian?

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Ok Star, if you think I'm going to dignify such looney questions as you are posing with an answer, guess again. You make absolutely no sense at all.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      To the Egyptians, the god of your bible did not exist. So why didn't they give up their religion? Or the cavemen? Why didn't they give up their religions?

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Odd how i can consider the possibility of a god existing even though i do not believe in one, yet you cannot even consider the possibility of several gods existing let alone having your god not exist.

      This would be the perfect time for me to assert a reason why you cannot consider the possibility and spend 50 comments telling you that your personal reason is wrong.

      It is tempting i will say, but would be hypocritical on my part. It doesn't make much sense to pose a hypothetical and then get haughty when you cannot answer the reverse when it is asked of you.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Star, god's do not exist. There is only one God and I know him personally and you can to. You'll find him in His Word. To ask me your question is like saying if the earth didn't exist would you still be standing there?

      Of course if the God of the Bible didn't exist there would be no religion to give up! Ask me a question that makes sense.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Tsadjatko - if it were conclusively proven that gods do NOT exist, would you give up your religion?

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Thanks Link and Johnny for your answers. You have made it very clear that even if the Bible were proven to you to be true, you would not become Christians. Exactly what can be predicted by the moral reason...listen to the video.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      I am sorry you are incapable of understanding things that are spelled out for you, but i am more than willing to pick it apart for you. Again.

      If christianity were to be proven true, i would believe in its god. Believe, in this context, means i acknowledge his existence as fact. Worship, in this context, means that i give my life to god and accept jesus into my heart. Like i have said for possibly the third or fourth time now, in order to worship, in the context i just explained to you, god himself would have to convince me to do so.

      So, to sum it up in an even clearer sense that i am sure you wont bother to acknowledge, i cannot give you a specific answer unless your religion, or any others, are proven to be undeniably true. If i were to give you an answer, i would be lying or telling a half truth. Even after saying that, i am sure you will continue to arrogantly assert that i am deceiving myself and running away from your religion and your religion only.

      I really don't care if you lie at this point, but if you continue to assert that, even after the repeated explanations served to you on a silver platter, your comments will be deleted. This game is getting tiring and i am quite surprised you have kept it up for as long as you have.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Ok, I would never become a christian because you, Tjad have shown it's all about belief, not proof and not fact.

      It's impossible to even discuss your questions because they are loaded in favour of agreeing with you.

      So I will not be drawn into fruitless argument. Denigrate my intelligence all you like...no dice.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      So Link is that all you're good at, how to be condescending? You said:

      "Like i also said, if any god from those religions does come forth and proves themselves, it would be a no brainer to believe in them. Worshipping on the other hand, whatever god in question would have to convince me to do whole heartedly, otherwise i am just being convenient."

      Sorry link, this is not an answer to my question at all! I didn't ask you if any God from any religion proved himself or if you would be convinced to worship. (although your comment about worship indicates you know nothing about Christianity and that you would not become a Christian)

      An answer to my question "If the Bible, Christianity was undeniably proven to you to be the truth would you become a Christian?" would be

      yes, I'd become a Christian,

      or no I would not.

      Can you pick one and actually say it?

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Thank you for showing that you did not bother to read my comment tsadjatko, since i literally just gave the answer to that question for the second if not third time.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Link, you are deceiving yourself if you believe that you know Christianity is a fairy tale. Be honest. I'll ask you since Johnny will do anything to not answer this question which I have posed to him multiple times.

      If the Bible, Christianity was undeniably proven to you to be the truth would you become a Christian?

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Well, that would be an interesting response, if i hadn't already told you the reason I don't believe in any specific god, let alone yours, is simply because none have ever shown/proven themselves. Like i also said, if any god from those religions does come forth and proves themselves, it would be a no brainer to believe in them. Worshipping on the other hand, whatever god in question would have to convince me to do whole heartedly, otherwise i am just being convenient.

      I am not quite sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. You keep insisting thati am running away from your god when i freely admit i have the ability to believe in him, or any others. To make it easier, think of Santa Claus. Each Xmas i get a present from Santa. One year, i get a different present from the one i wanted. How could Santa have been wrong if he supposedly knows what i want at all times? Same thing with the tooth fairy, i lose a baby tooth, forget to mention it but put it under my pillow anyway, and its still there the next morning.

      I really don't see how the same logic cannot be applied to religion when its basically the same concept. As far as i know, prayer has been proven to do nothing outside of give placebo effects.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      You continue to believe what you like. If you are one of the majority, in a nation that by your accounts is so gullible, then enjoy whilst it lasts.

      I enjoy Harry Potter books. They are full of nonsense but no one takes them seriously.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      So Johnny does it again, talks around the question. Really Johnny, that answer is supposed to support your assertion?

      "The vast majority of thinking Americans..." Well! What a stretch of the imagination, Tsad!"

      2013 Gallup found that three quarters of all Americans

      - a supermajority -

      identify themselves as Christians, with only five percent saying they are practicing members of a non-Christian faith.

      “We find, looking at our data, that America does in fact remain a predominantly Christian nation,” said Dr. Frank Newport, Gallup’s editor in chief.

      “Now, our overall estimation of what percent of Americans identify with the Christian religion depends a little on which of our various polls we look at, but I would estimate that about three-quarters – 75, maybe up to 77 percent of Americans - identify with the Christian religion."

      Pew research also says: The number of people who identify themselves as atheists in the United States has been rising, modestly but steadily, in recent years. Our aggregated data from 2012 show that 2.4% of American adults say they are atheists when asked about their religious identity, up from 1.6% in 2007.

      Hmmm 2.4%...Johnny, do you understandthe definition of tiny minority? That's it, hey go the benefit of the doubt, I grant you 10%, still a small minority. Just what group do you imagine you are in then? No choices left my friend.

      I only make this point for two reasons.

      1) because it is typical of your reasoning, you make things up, you change the subject when confronted with the truth...it's fruitless to try and reason with you. (eg. "The vast majority of thinking Americans..." Well! What a stretch of the imagination, Tsad!" your words, I show you the truth statistically, you don't answer) You suggest I am wasting my time and breath also..... no hope of anyone converting to your religious make-believe here. The real reason you want me to stop is not that you are concerned for me wasting my time but you can't stand hearing the truth and having your twisted view of Christianity revealed for what it is. If you are so upset by my presence instead of you going elsewhere to peddle your worldview you wish to censor my voice, no surprise there.

      2) If you concede the obvious truth, this once, then perhaps you could explain why anyone with such a minority worldview in the free-est most advanced country in the world where no one is forced to accept any religion by law, would simply declare without serious investigation of the majority's worldview that a super majority of the population believe in a fantasy. Anyone who understands Christianity knows the minute you open your mouth about it you do not and have never seriously investigated it. You go with or make up scenarios, take things out of context that support your world view, so naturally I assert the only reason for that kind of behavior is the moral reason as explained in the brief video (which Link so quickly deleted) which you told me once you watched it then admitted you only watched 2 minutes of it (I still wonder if that is even true). I'll ask you again, if the Bible, Christianity was undeniably proven to you to be the truth would you become a Christian?

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Ok I found it Link,

      "So can your moral reason for my rejection of Christianity be applied to all religions tsad, or just yours?"

      And I did answer it in my mind but as I was replying to comments I simply forgot to add it. Sorry, but let's be clear I didn't talk around your question to avoid admitting the truth which is what Johnny always does when confronted with admitting the truth.

      Your question is simple to answer and if you watched the video you deleted, even you would not need to ask that question. To ask it means you don't understand what the moral reason is (or don't want to).

      The moral reason being: People try to protect some area of their life or some habit they want to keep so they go on a search for intellectual reasons why they want to justify that or they find ways to suppress the truth or cover it up because of a bent to hold onto their sin, to justify their desire not to let Jesus be Lord of their life.

      So as far as other religions, I suppose there could be a moral reason for someone to reject another religion, if it requires him to not do something he wants to continue to do...but no other religion has the morality of the God of Christianity, the only one true God who requires that to be a Christian you repent of your sin and turn to Jesus as your savior, the way the truth and the life, the only way to God. You must make Jesus the Lord of your life, and it is obvious Link, you and Johnny will go to any length not to make Jesus the Lord of your life, you are products of the moral reason.

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      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Tjad, I will answer all three of your questions.

      I am not American

      I do not celebrate Christmas

      I do not accept the fantasy that Jesus was born of a virgin ... utter nonsensical make-believe.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      The one where i asked if your moral reason for my rejection of the bible and christianity can be applied to all the other religions i don't believe in, even ones that do not condemn me for doing whatever i want with my life. AKA sinning.

      The one you avoided answering to then say any other reason i could have for my rejection is nonsense.

      That question. Unless i missed your answer somewhere. If i did, i would imagine you would have pointed it out already.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      And what question was that link?

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Considering how my question has been avoided 3 times, I find this a little ironic.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      @ Johnny as usual you talk around my question and never answer my question. I asked - what part of the majority shown by the poll do you fit into? since you say you and your thinking is not in a minority. Answer you are a distinct minority by any measurement no matter what fantasy group you imagine exists.

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      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Good point, Johnny - The need to believe is so incredibly strong that parents will watch their children die to avoid jeopardizing their 'chance' at getting into 'heaven'. Their need to believe causes so much internal angst that it is amazing to see.

      Howdy Say Yes! I hope you wrote some hubs about your books.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      @ Say Yes To Life, it's my understanding that even though the public face of Hinduism might be multiple deities, in fact they are all facets/aspects of the one God-Head. In the same way that various saints of the christian church can be and are used by different people to represent the attributes they desire for themselves.

      @Link10103, it is pretty obvious that the arguments can continue ad infinitum. Those who wish to believe the religious views appertaining to an invisible god, wielding power and control over the lives of sinners, are unlikely to change, because to do so would mean losing face and having to admit to other possibilities. Such a process would/could be affront to ego. I was in such a position for several years of my earlier life. The chanting of "Hallelujah;" the singing of songs hoping a god would hear them and bless us; the hugs; the friendships and sense of belonging; the weekly routine which I did not have to think about very much, just do it.....these were all very attractive to a lonely young man. So I appreciate where they are coming from.

      Those who, like myself, have started to think for themselves and have been willing to take the risk of walking away from what we feel very suspect and insincere, unloving in fact, will more than likely never return to the old belief system. Rather like the butterfly, in all its glory and free-flying to achieve its objective, will never return to the chrysalis stage, we have found the world to be infinitely larger than constricted views of religious bigotry.

      What fascinates me is the apparently indelible need to believe in the invisible and most unlikely. I am saying this kindly, without casting ridicule upon the person with such a belief. It's not even related to intelligence really. There are extremely intelligent and perceptive individuals who still choose to "believe" in life after death. Makes me feel particularly unintelligent! (Wink)

    • Say Yes To Life profile image

      Yoleen Lucas 3 years ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      Link10103 - I've been following your discussions, and have come to some interesting realizations. About Noah's flood - the Bible specifically states that his 3 sons and their wives repopulated the Earth. Japheth, the oldest, is the forefather of Europeans; Ham, the youngest, is the ancestor of Africans; and Shem, the middle, is the progenitor of Asia, including Middle Easterners, i.e., Jews.

      You asked how can two Asian parents give birth to black and white children. EXCELLENT POINT!

      This is making me rethink a lot of what I have always assumed to be true. I am currently researching and writing four hubs describing the 10 most practiced religions. I have already published the first one, about Abrahamic religions. I am currently working on Hindu-based ones, and it is definitely an eye-opener! Some Hindu-based followers believe in one deity, some multiple deities, some none; most believe life is eternal, constantly going in a cycle, no beginning and no end.

      Apparently, atheists have a point...

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Sorry, toosad, you can't suck me into your idiotic diatribe now. It is you who wouldn't know the truth if it hit you upside your head.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      "Politophiles ."

      Where have I seen this written? Is there such a person as a "religiophile?" Definition: He/she doesn't want a challenge if he/she can help it, unless a god or a scripture can be used in defence. Also, he/she prefers a vulnerable naïve audience if at all possible.

      A religiophile is not your average grass-roots, genuine person in the street, who is trying to make an honest living and offering help and sustenance to the lowly. A religiophile is one for whom religion and the expression of belief is paramount and above all consideration of the other's needs.

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      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Celebration of Christmas in the United States of America is driven by big profits, both for the churches involved (which are big business) and other big businesses manufacturing all manner of useless materials for the benefit of big pockets.

      Granted there are some very wonderful people giving their time, money and love to the less fortunate people of this world.

      The finance of Christmas is little if anything to do with an altruistic, loving objective. Yet, as you say, 9 in 10 Americans celebrate Christmas!!!

      Anyway, "believing in the virgin birth of Jesus" does nothing to prove it actually happened. No "belief" makes things happen or confirms something DID happen.

      If you believe these things, it simply makes you one of those gullible people who believe.

      You already know where I "sit."

      I have seen you write so much garbage here, and in other discussions/hubs that it is, as Austinstar has pointed out, getting to be a waste of time and breath for me/us. I suggest you are wasting your time and breath also..... no hope of anyone converting to your religious make-believe here.

      The only people who will respond positively to your posts are those who are already converted.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Of course you would Star - you can't stand to hear the truth.

      Hey Johnny according to a 2013 Pew Research poll nine-in-ten Americans say they celebrate Christmas, and three-quarters say they believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. Tell me, where do you fit in there?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Link, if I were you, or this crap was being posted on my hub, I would delete everything from Lybrah and toosad. I long ago stopped letting Lybrah comment on my hubs. And if this tsad person tried it, I would delete all of his comments too.

      These two people are what I like to call, (expletive deleted).

      They both have their own accounts and can write their own rants, but no one will read it because their rants are repetitive and dogmatic and they refuse to change.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      @Lybrah "Jonny, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I reject your nonsense babbling about being "controlled." Seriously, I pity you."

      And how much intelligent "sense" is that?

      "I reject...." is understood by any thinking person. In this respect I certainly do know what I am talking about.

      I reject being controlled by the threat of eternal hell and damnation. Is that so difficult to understand?

      "The vast majority of thinking Americans..." Well! What a stretch of the imagination, Tsad!

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      You are right Lybrah, Johnny doesn't have a clue and is another prime example of the moral reason. As in the video which Link deleted, if you were to ask Johnny if it was proven to him Christianity was true would you become a christian? what do you think he would say? Maybe he'll answer that for us, but then he's seen the video before (so he told me on another hub) so he probably wouldn't answer at all and give us the satisfaction of being right.

      But instead of seeking knowledge of the Bible from a variety of credible theologians and apologists (PhDs) of which there is no shortage he relies on his own uninformed, misguided interpretations and cherry picks anything he can out of context to make a case of twisted logic to deny Christianity as a valid worldview. Little does he know the Bible has a multitude of passages describing his ilk, their haughtiness and self aggrandizement, clearly demonstrating how the father of his ilk is Satan.

      Of course the "crap" as he puts it we are peddling places us only in what the vast majority of thinking Americans believe while the truly vile crap he espouses puts him in a tiny minority of narcissist, hateful, lost souls whose only hope actually lies in God's hands, whom they despise. Ironic.

      But thank you Johnny and Link. Please, for your sakes stop doing what you are doing, one day you will know the truth.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Seems i deleted it forever, since it disappeared once i refreshed the page.

      I also never said i wasn't biased, i know exactly who i am biased against, and its against people such as Lybrah and yourself Tsad. Like i told Lybrah earlier, there have been more than a few christians/believers of god that i have agreed with on this site. The reason i have agreed with them is because they managed to preach the caring and loving teachings of god/jesus etc, all without acting like hypocritical jackasses to people of different beliefs. The lack of condeming me to hell was quite refreshing as well. I do enjoy how you did not answer my question, rather than shift your response to ridicule any other reasons i might have for not believing in your religion, even when i spelled my reason out for you. Bravo.

      There is nothing like trying to get a point across, to then have others show up and prove said point so clearly.

      So thank you Lybrah and Tsadjatko. Please, continue doing what you are doing.

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Jonny, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I reject your nonsense babbling about being "controlled." Seriously, I pity you.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      "....that you are a fallen sinful creation and God has provided a way for you to be saved from the consequences of your sin....." herein lies the basis for all of the christian religion.

      Death and the fear of death; sex and the enjoyment of sex; freedom to love the person we wish to love; life in a beautiful world where we can make our own decisions...... All areas where those who wish to can threaten us or deprive us; control us to do what they want.

      Not sufficient for us to suffer punishment for our misdemeanors here in the physical world, according to the rules of the land in which we live. NO, just when we think we will be out of the hell which bullies have created for us here, we will then be cast into the eternal torment of the Real Hell, set up by a so-called loving god to punish us for not living up to the perfect beings he thought he had created.

      Nothing tangible, mind you. If we ask "What is that Hell going to be like?" no one will tell us, because they don't actually know. They can build up in their minds all manner of dreadful scenarios, according to the ugly minds they have built for themselves. "But you gotta believe, Man! It's going to be hell for you if you persist in your Sins!"

      What a load of absolutely senseless, irrational baloney. Lybrah and Tsad, you are peddling crap!

      "You loath the idea of adhering to any morality that requires you not to do anything you wish, in short not to sin." Another statement, designed to control and police those you disagree with.

      And the most convenient "sins" you can lay your hands on are those associated with the enjoyments of life. You think you can poke your noses into the private lives of others, just so you can lay down the laws of a fictitious god, because you are too lazy and dishonest to deal with your own insecurities.

      I personally reject all of your religious nonsense. I reject your beliefs in regard to any "afterlife," because there ain't any! I fear no "god" of your imaginations, because your imaginations are designed to control me and the likes of me. Your arguments are nonsense, also. You speak of "love," when you have no idea what that really means. Any good intentions you might have, any warmth and softness, any compassion you might feel towards the down-trodden, gets hidden behind your religiosity and dogma. Drop that and you might start to do something useful in life.

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Tsad, you nailed it. I couldn't have said it better myself.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Link, unless you did a delete forever all you have to do is go to your account page, click on the comments tab, under hub comments click the drop arrow on filter and select denied. This will show the comments you denied and will allow you to approve any one you want.

      The video link in the post you deleted is an interview with two Christian apologists who are experts on atheists, have debated numerous famous atheists and are accomplished people in their own rights who don't put stock in "fiction" as you describe the Bible which you obviously have never studied nor have you investigated any credible scholar who has. Yet you feel justified to make the ludicrous statements about the Bible which you have made. If the moral reason is not your motivation, then whatever it is is far worse. And if your rants aren't that of an angry atheist, I don't know what is ("...not people like you who push their biases onto others in An attempt to make them feel like shit).

      You fail to see there is no bias on our part, Christians simply strive to abide by the Word of God, while you are as biased against Christianity and condescending an individual as they come.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      There goes the point right there actually.

      And if i can undelete the comment, i certainly don't know how. I saw the option when i originally deleted it, but it disappeared once i refreshed the page. So unless you can enlighten me, your point is invalid. Well, more invalid, since you don't actually seem to read anything i say, otherwise you would have seen i gave the floor to you 100 times already, but decide to ignore all questions i throw at you.

      Bravo. So can your moral reason for my rejection of christianity be applied to all religions tsad, or just yours? Second chance to answer, try not to swallow your foot.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Link can simply undo the delete but you will see why he deleted it...because it is the truth. He won't put it back simply because he needs any excuse he can think of ( like not a legitimate comment, biased garbage) not to discuss what is obviously his real motivation to reject Christianity and entertain some imagined "god" possibility but not that one. The moral reason is why he lies about the Bible, it is an excuse not to believe the truth. Just look at the lengths he tries to go to to avoid discussing the moral reason.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Tsad actually restated the main point that made me delete the comment at the end of the second paragraph 6 comments above this one. That point, which i only just told you, is telling me the reason why i do not believe in christianity when i clearly stated why i do not believe in ANY religion, let alone christianity.

      And no, i do not think all christians have that mindset, which is exactly why i limited it to some christians i have seen on this site. Only said that to you earlier and i think in the hub as well. As fun as it is repeating myself to you endlessly Lybrah, please try to read what is being said to you.

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Link, it is not disrespectful to tell it like it is. Call a spade a spade. Although I do not know what he wrote, I have a feeling he did not insult you. What did he say to you that made you delete the entire comment?

      And I do not feel superior to you, Link. You think Christians have the mindset that they think they are better, but you are wrong about that.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Telling me why i have the beliefs i do and/or why i do not have his same beliefs, even when i explain my own reasoning, is disrespectful.

      But it seems I am the only one with that mindset. I don't recall telling people a completely different reason for their belief in god from the original one they just told me, wondering why i can't be afforded that same respect. You can add that to the list as well Lybrah, ignoring other people's viewpoints in favor of your own just to feel Superior.

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Tsad is the one who is correct here--about Link, that is. What Tsad is saying makes total sense. I would have liked to have read that comment that was deleted. Unless the comment was absolutely disrespectful, it should have not been deleted. I wonder.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      "God has provided a way for you to be saved from the consequences of your sin"

      You mean from the consequences of his own imperfect creation?

      If God had created perfect humans, they never would have sinned in the first place. Plus the fact that your god created "sin" also, so he must be ok with it.

      Link is correct. Morals have absolutely nothing to do with religion. Gods were created to explain the natural world that humans didn't understand yet.

      If it were possible for you to grow and learn, you would understand this.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      You dont like reading do you? I addressed your last comment, which had nothing to do with your original comment. What it had to do with was you calling me transparent because you misrepresented what i said again and read way too deeply into a simple sentence. And then you complain that i corrected you? Get fucking real.

      Plus, i already told you that you can talk about whatever you wanted, provided you do not make it sound like you are telling me why i do not believe as if it were fact, which you clearly cannot manage to do. Surprise surprise, your bias is showing. I didn't think it would be that difficult for you to talk to someone without having your nose pointed to the ceiling the entire time.

      Now, since i am actually interested in this moral reason that clearly makes me run away screaming from Jesus That i myself apparently know nothing about but you know everything about, can your same logic be applied to any and all other religions Tsadjatko? Even ones that do not condemn me for doing whatever i want with my life, since i don't believe in Any of their gods either? Because if your moral reasoning is only applied to christianity, i would appreciate it if you got off your pedestal, got bent, and left my hub. Extreme arrogance tends to make me nauseous.

      You are free to stay if you can explain to me why i need a moral reason to not believe in something that is invisible, and has several thousand different versions since the beginning of mankind, half of which propbably contradict each other. If that wasn't a big, clear hint for you, let me spell it out.

      I do not believe in any specific god, because none have ever been proven. To add on that, none have ever been proven to be true over the other. Really has nothing to do with morals in the slightest. If you can prove your god exists, beyond any shadows of doubt, i will have no problem beliving in him. One would have to be an idiot to ignore cold hard facts proving something to be true. But since better people than you and i have failed to do so, i am not too sure that your success rate will be very high.

      But if you did manage to succeed and blow the whole world's mind open, worshipping said god is something else entirely. God himself would have to convince me to do so, not people like you who push their biases onto others in An attempt to make them feel like shit.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      See you are doing it again - you avoid the whole point of discussing my original post which you deleted, your motivation for doing so and you continue to create straw men (you just spent 7 sentences discussing the word legitimate) to rant about solely to avoid acknowledging the fact that you have uninformed opinions about Christianity, actually know nothing about the Bible, avoid even mentioning that the whole point of the Bible is that you are a fallen sinful creation and God has provided a way for you to be saved from the consequences of your sin. Theologians even scientists (most once atheists) have devoted their whole lives to studying the Bible, the Bible has changed the world for the good and actually the Bible has proven to be more historically and archaeologically accurate than any other ancient book. It has been subjected to the minutest scientific textual analysis possible to humanity and has been proven to be authentic in every way.

      Yet you say "The Bible is not fact."...the Bible rockets over into the realm of fiction." This is not an informed opinion! Your statements of your beliefs is what led me to look more closely at the real reason you choose to run from the Bible and the God of the Bible, even making up things about it. That reason is "the moral reason" which you were so quick to delete.

      You don't want to discuss the moral reason? no surprise there, actually lends credibility to the fact that the moral reason is why you disdain the Bible and the Christian God. You loath the idea of adhering to any morality that requires you not to do anything you wish, in short not to sin. You will not entertain a discussion of your real motivations or actually try to justify how I'm wrong, you won't even let your readers know what the moral reason is.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      I dont see how i am playing any games when i stated, very clearly, that me pointing out that i never used the word pertained to absolutely nothing that was said, just that i felt like pointing it out. Went over your head i guess.

      Also, when i say legitimate questions, i mean exactly that, legitimate questions. "why do you like the color blue?" or more on topic "why do you not believe in christianity?". A question that is geared to insult me or distort my views is one that is not legitimate in my eyes.

      I don't see how i implied your comments were illegitimate with that sentence when i specified questions, and you hadn't asked any questions at that point.

      So again, at the very least it seems you are guilty of putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting things as well. Repeatedly. Does this make you transparent as well?

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Ah so you now try to play a semantics game? When you say "You ask me legitimate questions, i wont delete your comments." you clearly imply my comment is not legitimate which is what illegitimate means last time I checked...you are so transparent.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Well you are right on one point at least. No, i do not want to hear YOUR reasons as to why i do not believe in christianity, or any religion for that matter. I know my own reasons well enough without you coloring them with your own bias, which you tend to do with almost any atheist i have seen you speak to on this site.

      Also, never used the word illegitimate, not that that actually pertains to anything but i felt like pointing it out. I never said you needed my permission to comment, rather than my permission to post links (and i am not the only person on here who does that). I even said directly after that you were free to tell people what to google in order to watch the video, but somehow that all blew past you.

      At the very least, you are guilty of putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting things as well. Funny that.

      Maybe i should clarify why i actually deleted your comment, which really had nothing to do with the video (since again, i said you could tell people the name). The reason i deleted your comment is because you asserted that my reasons for not believing in your religion were either based on lies, false statements, or cherry picked bible verses, or something very close to those things. Feel free to quote that section of your comment if you want it to be clarified.

      Again, i do not take kindly to people telling me what i think or why i think it, especially you specifically. Your comments in the Q&A are beyond offensive half time. Can't really blame me for not wanting that kind of crap on my hub.

      If you assume a position where your beliefs clearly arent 100% right, and that people who do not hold the same beliefs for legitimate reasons arent complete idiots, we can talk about your beliefs for as long as you want. Otherwise, get bent.

      Up to you

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Link, That is funny, I know what you think of the Bible and the God of the Bible from what you wrote in your hub so why do you think I need to ask you to repeat it. I quote:

      "The Bible is not fact."...the Bible rockets over into the realm of fiction."

      "I certainly do not hold any credibility to most forms of god that come from organized religion. Holy texts like the Bible do a fine enough job all on their own of discrediting not only the existence but attributes of the very god they depict so that really comes as no surprise.

      "I do not hold a belief in any particular god or gods"

      I never said you deny god completely but you chose to put those words in my mouth which is what you do, misrepresent what is said then argue against it. Just like when you say I don't care about your beliefs but seem to have no problem telling you why you have those beliefs. The point I made is not whether you believe in "some sort of God" but why you don't want to believe in Christianity or the Bible. I don't care about anything else because it is irrelevant to what I had to say which you deleted, not because it was an "illegitmate" (your word) comment but because there was a lot of truth in it which you naturally don't want to hear. If it were just "biased garbage" (your words) why would you delete it instead of pointing out where it is wrong. I'll tell you why, because it hit home as the truth and you don't want to hear it.

      You are so transparent. Someone with the strength of his convictions would not need to hide behind lame excuses like your comment is illegitimate, you need my permission to comment, hiding a video link so no one can hear it. Someone who doesn't want to hear the other side or scrutinize their own motivations would.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      I'm just happy that HP doesn't censor people that color outside the lines. And that they mostly allow us to censor ourselves. After looking at the bio for tsadjat, I am a bit surprised that he has any followers here at all. He comes off as a paranoid weirdo in his bio. But I'm betting he won't take that in the spirit in which I said so.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Ahh, nice of you to admit that you don't care about my beliefs but seem to have no problem telling me why i have those beliefs.

      If you keep making it sound like you are telling what my beliefs are, then yes the comment will be deleted. I can't imagine you would calmly take it if you told me you believe in god, for me to then assert that you worship Satan for some such reason, would you? Me being annoyed has nothing to do with beliefs, rather than having you tell me what i think and why i think it.

      If you find a way to not push your biases onto me, feel free to talk. I don't feel like you can do that though without actually hearing why I do not believe in your specific god from me personally. Since you said you don't care to know, its likely your comment will be deleted.

      Up to you though, either way i am interested in how your comment turns out.

      Austin

      Where have i heard that before....

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Link, Ewwwee, sounds like the words of an angry atheist, so angry he has to delete the truth as soon as he sees it.

      Get this straight, I couldn't care less about what you believe in so don't put words in my mouth. If you didn't delete my comment it would be clear the ONLY point I made is not whether you believe in "some sort of God" but why you don't want to believe in Christianity or the Bible.

      So tell me then since you deleted the you tube 3 minute video I posted explaining the moral reason as it pertains to you and the Bible (having absolutely nothing to do with your openness or unopeness to "some kind of god's existence.") may I have your permission to explain it, or are you going to now delete this under the guise of it's an "illegitmate comment?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Link, like you said, it's your hub. You have the right to delete any and all comments. That's not censorship, that's editing.

      Now, if you were trying to delete this tsadfat person's hubs from HP, that would be censorship.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      You can cry about censorship only if i delete all of your comments. Rather than ask me why I don't believe in a specific god, you assume that i deny god completely based on your own biased ideas (which if you read the hub, you would know that i don't deny some kind of god's existence.)

      You ask me legitimate questions, i wont delete your comments. You assume asinine things using little to no information about my beliefs and your comments will get deleted. Make sense?

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

      Yeah but they don't make censorship the cornerstone of their discussion.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      @Lyprah: " Jesus never had time to pursue a marital relationship with anyone--it was not his: purpose for living." How would you know this, Lyprah? It is not something you could obtain from your bible. On the contrary, if a man was a Rabi in those days, was it not expected that he would be married? Let's face it, a guy has certain needs in life, normally. Maybe Jesus used prostitutes, and that was why he had such an empathy with one of the prostitutes.

      I'm only suggesting..... no one will ever know for sure, but it would be natural thing for a man to do if he was not married.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Let it be clear that this is my hub Tsadjatko, i do not need or desire your biased garbage on my hub. You also ask my permission to post any links first, but you are free to tell anyone to google the name of your video.

      Rather than continually assume the crap that you do, why not ask why i do not believe in any specific god? I hope you realize that there are in fact people out there who can think for themselves.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      The condescending, holier than thou attitudes are a major turn off, which is present in your very first comment on this hub. Threats of eternal damnation tend to get old also.

      Oh, and the purposeful shunning of logic and common sense along with a plethora of closed mindedness i have seen in some here is quite sickening. And please, do not say those people are not true christians, because they are all people you have agreed with.

      Since its obvious preaching is having the opposite of its intended effect, please continue it.

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Link, your conclusion is truly sad. You have completely missed the boat. I don't understand you. How have I and other believers pushed you away?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Lybrah, I don't know what cult you belong to, but you must be one of their best members! You being sarcastic? How could I tell?

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      Wow.

      Well I can honestly say I wont ever be religious thanks to people on this site, at least not of any of the main religions that is.

      Please, continue preaching your beliefs Lybrah.

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      The Google definition of disciple is: "a personal follower of Jesus during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles." The use of the word, "especially" is to mean that there were other disciples of Jesus during his lifetime. He converted many people when He was alive--most of the stuff Jesus did is not even in the bible, for the writers of the bible felt that enough evidence was given to prove He was the son of God. Plus, the works of Jesus were many. So no, a believer and a disciple can in fact be the same thing.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      I have always claimed to be agnostic, until I read a hub on this site and amended my label. Of course, I was always called an atheist, usually a degenerate one, long before I did any of those things by people such as yourself. Even still, i am not a traditional atheist, something you and others fail to understand even when things are explained to you.

      The goal of the video was her to show atheists can be good people too yes, but also to show the hypocrisy and bias of uninformed people, something you missed I guess.

      As for the other part, you do understand that a believer and a disciple are 2 different things right?

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      I think that girl is trying to prove that atheists are indeed good people. Basically, because the atheists raised more money than the Christians, that is supposed to say something. What if atheists came together and did something worthwhile and Christian? Christians raise money because that is what God wants them to do, for Him (that is supposed to be the case, anyway). What are the atheists' motives? If they just want to help people, fine. Unfortunately for you, (someone who claimed he was NOT an atheist), there will be the stigma, even when atheists try to do something noble. I really don't think the girl proved anything with this video, other than to say, "Atheists are good people, too." Somehow, without God at the central core of their beings, it still seems rather empty. There are plenty of non-Christian groups out there who raise money for stuff. But I guess the message that the girl wanted to send was that atheists have morals, too. She accomplished her goal.

      Yes, you did read that Mary Magdalene was Jesus's wife in the DaVinci Code. It was an interesting book. I believe, however, it was fiction. Jesus never had time to pursue a marital relationship with anyone--it was not his purpose for living. Whether or not he ever considered taking a wife, we will never know. What we do know is how close He was to God (His father), and that He was very much on a mission--one that did not include a family with kids and stuff. There were other people around who did believe in Jesus--those who witnessed His miracles became believers--this included women. In the bible Mary Magdalene and other women were present at Jesus's crucifixion.

      Austinstar: I was being sarcastic.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      If an atheist made your head explode, that would be a miracle. Heads don't explode just because you watch a pro-atheist video. Seriously?

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 3 years ago

      I would be lying if I said she wasn't, but it really has nothing to do with the fact that she makes sense.

      I am sorry you couldn't watch the whole video, otherwise you might have seen the person she was replying to, a previous homosexual turned to god who now views homosexuals as filth and was attacking her due to her atheism. Her atheism that did not exist until a few years ago, since she was raised a Christian and stayed that way until college.

      The point of the video was for you to get to the part where she says the same exact thing I said about you, your beliefs do not factor into the equation in the slightest in regards to me disliking you, but how you act because of those beliefs.

      Even though I expected it, i am still somewhat surprised that your lack of objectivity couldn't get you pass 30 seconds. Shame. Says a lot about your personality actually, even if it is only your online one. Doubt it is exclusive to the internet though. You should check out her recent fundraising video. Would like to know your thoughts on that.

      Aside from that, how do you know Jesus had women disciples if it isn't in the Bible? And disciples is plural, meaning more than one. What other women were his disciples? I was also under the impression that Mary was his wife, but I am pretty sure I read that in the Da Vinci Code.

    • profile image

      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Link, you probably just like her because she's hot....I tried to watch but couldn't stand more than 30 seconds of listening to her whine. She irritated me. I guess my head was starting to explode...I did check out her other videos...not impressed.

      Jonny--I refuse to waste any more time arguing with you.

      Austinstar-- Jesus had women disciples but of course they are not mentioned in the bible. None of the 12 special disciples were women, so I guess that is to what you are referring. When Jesus rose up from the dead, I think it was Mary Magdalene who first saw him when she went to pray by his tomb and saw the giant stone removed.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Nice! Just watched the video. Thank you for introducing me to such a lovely young lady! She is very cool.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Good one Jonny! But the unfortunate fact is that this woman will just call you a bully for throwing her own words back at her.