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Are Jesus and Lucifer the Same Being?

Updated on November 20, 2016
Thomas Swan profile image

Dr. Thomas Swan studied cognition and culture at Queen's University Belfast. He specializes in the cognitive science of religion.

Perhaps the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was his impersonation of God.
Perhaps the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was his impersonation of God. | Source

Though it's controversial to compare Jesus with Lucifer, there are a number of mythological and linguistic consistencies that deserve our attention. As such, Christians should be warned that this will not make for comfortable reading.

Lucifer the Morning Star

In the original Hebrew Old Testament, Lucifer is called Helel, meaning "shining one". Similarly, a direct translation of Lucifer from Latin into English gives us the phrase “light bearer” or “light bringer”. This notion of light-bringing is a reference to Lucifer's depiction as the planet Venus, which often features in the sky shortly before dawn. Thus, Lucifer is also given the epithet "morning star" to describe how he `brings the light' of a new day.

So, rather than being a prince of darkness, Lucifer appears to have reputable origins. Indeed, popular myths about Lucifer describe him as an angel who was cast out of heaven:

"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!" - Isaiah 14:12.

It should be noted that the King James Bible replaces "morning star, son of the dawn" with "O Lucifer, son of the morning". Despite the protests of some Biblical scholars, the translations given earlier show the two descriptions to be interchangeable. Taken in context, the quoted passage compares the fall of Lucifer with the fate of a Babylonian King. Much despised, the King tried to ascend to heaven, but was cast back down to Earth.

Lucifer's celestial status as a morning star that brings the dawn is clear. Confusion arises when Jesus is described in the same way:

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” - Revelation 22:16.

"May this flame be found still burning by the Morning Star: the one Morning Star who never sets, Christ your Son, who, coming back from death's domain, has shed his peaceful light on humanity" - Easter Proclamation (Roman Missal).

Lucifer was cast out of heaven.
Lucifer was cast out of heaven. | Source

Origin of the Lucifer Myth

The idea of a "morning star" falling from heaven probably has its origins in the Babylonian myth of Etana. This ancient king strove to be higher than the supreme god, Anu, by riding on the wings of an eagle. However, he was filled with fear and forced to return to Earth.

Conversely, it may refer to Inanna's descent into the underworld. Like Lucifer, Inanna is associated with Venus in Babylonian mythology. Indeed, many Old Testament myths originated in the Babylonian (Sumerian) religion, including Noah's Ark.

Comparative Mythology

Using the above quotes, one could claim that Lucifer and Jesus were the same entity. A further connection can be made if we consider their comparative mythologies. As described earlier, Lucifer was thrown out of heaven:

"And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world – he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." - Revelation 12:7.

"I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" - Luke 10:18.

Christian tradition tells us that Lucifer became Satan after his fall, though that connection is also rather shaky. Nevertheless, Jesus also descended from heaven to walk the Earth:

"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." - Galatians 4:4.

"I have come [as] Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me will not remain in darkness." - John 12:46.

Accordingly, Satan is called "the God of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4:4, which further blurs the line between these two beings.

Thus, Jesus and Lucifer are both light-centric supernatural beings that arrived on the human plane of existence, and it's quite possible that Lucifer's appearance also required him to be born to a human mother. However, if Jesus and Lucifer were the same entity, then all that followed in the New Testament was the work of a deceiver. Were Jesus' beneficent, miraculous deeds designed to coax the masses into following him? At the very least, one could question whether a true god would flaunt his powers in such a manner.

It would follow that Christianity is a Luciferian cult. When considering that the fall of Rome, Dark Ages, Crusades, Inquisition, and numerous other evils can be attributed to its inception, the idea may actually appear less far-fetched than the traditional Christian interpretation.

Venus seen next to the Moon.
Venus seen next to the Moon. | Source

Interpreting the Morning Star

Christian scholars have interpreted the Lucifer-Jesus connection in various ways. A common rebuttal is to use the following passage to claim there is more than one morning star:

"Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Who laid the cornerstone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" - Job 38:6.

However, this contradicts the quotations given earlier. They describe `the' or `the one' morning star, as if there are no others. Furthermore, there is only one Venus, though when the planet overtakes Earth's orbit, it does begin to appear at a different time in the night. As the Bible is no stranger to contradiction, we may never know which interpretation is true.

Other scholars claim the Bible verse in which the morning star is cast from heaven (Isaiah 14, see above) is not allegorical, but is actually referring to the King of Babylon. This introduces the problem of why Hebrew authors would want to describe this King as a divine (celestial) being. Morning star is more precisely attributed to an angel; not a King they despised.

Finally, there is the parable in which Jesus spent 40 days fasting alone in the desert. He is tempted three times by Satan, suggesting they are two separate beings. However, wise men often wandered into the wilderness to find their true selves by overcoming inner demons. Indeed, no-one is recorded as bearing witness to the meeting, so it's quite possible that Satan symbolized a side of Jesus that had to be overcome or challenged in some way.

How would the devil appear to you?
How would the devil appear to you? | Source

Lucifer as Jesus Christ

Perhaps the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he was God. Indeed, what better way to get revenge on a benevolent god than to found a religion that does great evil in his name? This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone:

"And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth." - Revelation 20:7.

"And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." - Corinthians 11:14.

Even the Bible foretold that Satan would deceive the world by masquerading as an angel of light. Indeed, we are also told that Satan is a tempter, a trickster, and a dealer in chicanery and illusion. Would he appear as the beast, or the answer to our prayers?

Jesus found a poor and squalid land, and used miracles and charitable acts to become their messiah. He profited from the misery of the masses, but did nothing to end their suffering on a permanent basis. Instead he claimed that our sins can be forgiven if we pledge our souls to him. Even murderers and rapists can ascend to paradise by selling their souls to Christianity. Has the devil worshiper metaphor gone far enough yet?

For those without a predilection for Christian dogma, this interpretation may be just as (im)plausible as the Christian version. Indeed, many believe the religion spawned by this mythical figure is the source of numerous past evils. Those who deny these evils use deception to prevent their discovery; while heaven and hell are wielded to tempt or threaten those who are too vulnerable or desperate to care. But then, that's just what Lucifer would have wanted, isn't it?

© 2013 Thomas Swan

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    • Mel Carriere profile image

      Mel Carriere 3 years ago from San Diego California

      I predict you are going to get a lot of very spirited feedback on this one. Although I can't agree with you, I respect your very well articulated statement.

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      graceinus 3 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      Thomas Swan- This is flat out blasphemy against Jeusu Christ, which you evidently could care less.

      Mel Carriere- You respect his articulated statement. If you are a christian then you are coward for not standing up for Jesus Christ..

    • Mel Carriere profile image

      Mel Carriere 3 years ago from San Diego California

      Graceinus all your intolerant attitude does is add fuel to the fire of non believers. Should we bring back the Inquisition and burn all non-Christians at the stake?

    • profile image

      graceinus 3 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      Mel Carriere-Who said anything about burning people at the stake or an Inquisition. I said it's blasphemy and you're a coward. How do yo you get burning people at the stake and inquisition out of that. As a christian I have every right to speak out against blasphemy. You coward.

    • Mel Carriere profile image

      Mel Carriere 3 years ago from San Diego California

      If the apostles had used your same judgmental approach Christianity would have never taken root. Instead of damning others with abusive language why don't you offer them a blessing?

    • profile image

      graceinus 3 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      MEL- cARRIERE- Answer my question.

    • Mel Carriere profile image

      Mel Carriere 3 years ago from San Diego California

      I'm not going to get into a shouting match on someone else's hub. This is exactly why some people get turned off by Christianity, because of blind fanaticism. God bless you.

    • profile image

      graceinus 3 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      Just like I said, a coward.

    • Ranzi profile image

      Cut The Bullshit 3 years ago from All Over

      Im not a believer in a God, but if there is one man I hold in the highest regard whether he is fiction or real and that is Jesus. The love he preached is overwhelming. However Thomas I will have to give you much credit for your research and thinking outside the box.

    • Colleen Swan profile image

      Colleen Swan 3 years ago from County Durham

      A hell of an article; well done.

    • Ranzi profile image

      Cut The Bullshit 3 years ago from All Over

      Graceinus you are one hypocrite who is not turning the other cheek. You are rude, aggressive and have so much pent up anger that Jesus himself would be so disappointed in you behaviour. You must be related to the crusaders.

    • profile image

      graceinus 3 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      Rani-This goes to show you how much ignorance you have regarding Jesus Christ. I can quote a number of verses in the bible where Jesus called people liers, vipers and hypocrites while defending our Father in heaven. And you can bet Jesus was angry. So much so He was turning over tables and whipping people. So before showing your ignorance again try studying the bible.

    • enamateur profile image

      Perry 3 years ago

      I don't trust the bible, it hasn't been updated in some time.

    • Ranzi profile image

      Cut The Bullshit 3 years ago from All Over

      Grace, who are you to use God's actions to defend your own? And let's not forget what Jesus christ said before he took his last breath after facing humiliation, torture and betrayel, "father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing?" There is no need to have such a righhtous attitute just because you have studies the bible inside out which has left your mind to perceive it in such a fanatical manner. Do I like that Jesus is being compared to the devil? of course not! Do I agree, definitely not. But I do appreciate that if there is a God then he has given us free will and a brain to think the way we want. As long as Thomas is not insulting believers and calling them names. In the end you're quite a rude and aggressive lady Grace and there's a famous quote from the bible which I feel is relavent for this post. "Do no feed pearls to swine." God bless you

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      graceinus 3 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      This will be my last comment in this Hub so I will make the following very clear. This Hub is full of blasphemy from start to finish. And any so called christian who respects the statements and writes a comment showing his or her respect for the statements contained within this Hub is a coward for not standing up for Jesus Christ.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks Mel, it's nice to see someone who can gracefully disagree. I wrote this because I've noticed how Christians love to reinterpret the Bible when it becomes politically incorrect. I thought I'd show where interpretation can lead. I don't believe what I've said any more than I believe anything else in the Bible. IMO, no-one fell from heaven!

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks for commenting graceinus. Heh, well, I did warn you! If the theory described in the hub is correct, my blasphemy is an act of God. You're right though, I didn't set out to offend people... I "could" care less but I'm glad I don't care less!

      There's no need to attack other commenters. I don't believe a true, benevolent God would approve of that.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks Ranzi, Jesus certainly did preach some loving stuff. Hopefully it was genuine and not for acquiring power.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks Colleen!

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      enamateur, I agree. Christians tend to value works that have "stood the test of time" rather than works that are improved or discarded as new evidence arises. I think that's one of the main reasons why they are disposed to reject science.

    • Michele Travis profile image

      Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Hi Thomas Swan Lucifer was called "morning star" Jesus is called "The Bright and Morning Star" There is a difference in meanings of those two names.

      Its like when Lucifer is called the prince of darkness and Jesus is the Prince of Peace.

    • A Thousand Words profile image

      A Thousand Words 3 years ago

      You know, it's funny because the thought crossed my mind just the other day. I'm a former believer, and one of my former pastors (who called himself a prophet) used to always say that God is not the author of confusion, and yet what has caused more confusion in the world than the NT? People call Jesus the Prince of Peace, but the very Bible also states that Jesus will set daughter against father and son against mother (I'm paraphrasing), that if you don't hate your father and mother you cannot serve him. That sounds like a Prince of Division. How many people have died for the sake of the spread of this religion? Christians won't admit that it would've have been so far spread if it hadn't been for the Crusades and hundreds of thousands if not more people being murdered if they did not become Christian!

      And you know what? Back when I was religious, I'll never forget this. I went to a private Christian college in middle-of-nowhere Georgia. I had a dream that I was being raped by demons in my dorm room. They didn't look especially evil, though, they were like these dark silhouettes, but you could tell they were demons. I was so scared that I started praying really hard that Jesus would come help me. And then they went away and he appears with this kind smile. But then he becomes a demon himself, and I had never experienced such heartache and disappointment. And then I woke up. I never knew what it meant. Maybe it was my unconscious mind picking up on something? I don't know. But this seemed like THE perfect hub to post it in.

    • A Thousand Words profile image

      A Thousand Words 3 years ago

      Oh and side note: When I say "Maybe it was my unconscious mind picking up on something," I don't mean that I actually believe that Jesus is the Devil, because I don't believe that either one exists. I mean more that maybe it was telling me something I thought was so kind and full of light wasn't what I though it was. And that's something I'm coming to understand more and more in my journey of finding myself.

    • Michele Travis profile image

      Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      A Thousand Words, sometimes our dreams are trying to tell us more about ourselves. I don't know, but some dreams are vivid. Your comments are very interesting.

    • profile image

      MysticMoonlight 3 years ago

      Interesting read, Thomas. Very gutsy of you, I admire that. Most people are too scared to think about this possibility and definitely too scared to write about it so I commend you on your bravery writing on such a delicate subject!

      As far as whether this is true or not, I don't know. What I can say is that anything is possible. Much of what we think we know is just that, what we think we know.

    • profile image

      christiananrkist 3 years ago

      Hi Thomas. Interesting Hub. I think your mistaken in a few areas however.

      Lets take a closer look at isaiah 14:12. Satan as well as the Babylonian king is referred to as the morning star. But much in the same way a person may be referred to as a Judas. This scripture is communicating that Satan WANTED TO BE GOD. How do we know this. Lets take a look at the next few verses.

      Isaiah 14:13-14

      “But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;I will make myself like the Most High.’

      Its very clear when read in its context, that Isaiah 14:12 isn't equating Satan with Jesus by referring to him as the morning star, but communicating that he wanted to take God's place. So I think its safe to say you can't use this passage to say Satan and Jesus are the same entities.

      You're really taking a huge leap in your comparative mythology section. Not sure where you get the idea in Christian tradition that Lucifer becomes Satan after the fall. Even if this were backed up by scripture, it wouldn't matter. Names meant a lot to the Jewish community. Its not unlikely he would have been referred as a different name based on his actions. Much like Naomi changing her name to Mara or Saul changing his name to Paul. You say its not inconceivable that Lucifers appearance required him to be born to a human mother. Your right. Its not inconceivable. However its also not communicated in the bible. God did however make angels appear in human form without being born to a human mother. This argument really seems to have to invoke the power of speculation to make it work.

      Now lets take a look at Job38:6 (the verse you actually want to highlight by the way is 38:7). Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together

      And all the sons of God shouted for joy? This ends in a question. Maybe we should look at more than one verse.

      Job38:5-9

      When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? “Or who enclosed the sea with doors when, bursting forth, it went out from the womb; when I made a cloud its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band,

      reading the text in its proper context (that being Hebrew poetry) the morning stars are the sons of God that are mentioned. These passages seem to follow a common parallel format found in the surrounding text. For instance in verse 5

      5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!

      Or who stretched the line upon it?

      Notice here the 2 lines communicate the same thing. Then in verse 6.

      6 On what were its bases sunk,

      or who laid its cornerstone,

      Same thing here. And so on and so on, including verse 7. Remember words are equivocal not univocal.

      Lucifer as Jesus Christ:

      Here you give an interesting example on how Satan could be deceiving the world by quoting Revelation 20:7. notice in this passage though this is speaking of the end times. It hasn't happened yet. Although Satan is a deceiver, you can't use this particular passage to make your point. You say Satan is described as a tempter, a trickster, and a dealer in chicanery and illusion. This is true. However, notice there is nothing that suggest creative power. In 2Corinthians 11:14 where Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, it is in the context of comparing Satan to false apostles. How do we know? Again lets look at more than 1 verse.

      2Corinthians 11:12-15

      But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles,deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

      Much like there are still false teachers in the church today even. This passage does not suggest that Satan has creative power to literally change his form to appear as Jesus. The basic premise is that Satan will often use the truth in order to deceive. You see this when he tempted Eve and again when he temps Jesus by quoting scripture. Also notice in Job, Satan needs God's permission to do something.

      Job1:12

      .”Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

      When comparing Jesus to Satan you use a slick use of words when you say he uses TRICKS and charity. These are not tricks. They were miracles. If you're going to use the bible to make your case, you can't impose your own use of words on it. Your say Jesus PROFITED from the misery of the masses. Doing things that ultimately lead up to his torture and death, while never having a proper place to lay his head is hardly profiting.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks for commenting Michelle Travis. There are quite a few mentions of Jesus being called a morning star, and not all of them refer to him being a "bright" morning star. It's harder to find mentions of Lucifer. Perhaps if there were more, he would also be called "bright" some of the time. However, his name essentially means "light bringer" or "shining one" so I don't think there's much need to qualify his brightness.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      That's an interesting story A Thousand Words, and I understand that you don't believe either is real. The confusion quote is also very relevant here as you say.

      I agree that your dream probably represented your mind trying to symbolically reconcile contradictions and hypocrisies in the religion.

      Your dream experience brought up a strange memory of my own. Back when I was a mischievous 19 year old, I made up a dream with a lot of symbolism to suggest Lucifer and Jesus were the same, and sent it in an email to a Christian website to see what they would say. However, they didn't pick up on the connection and just gave me the usual "it might not mean what you think" talk. Oh well :( hehe

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks MysticMoonlight. Oh I think atheists have said far worse. I tried to stick to the bare facts without throwing any real certainty behind my interpretation of them. There have also been a fair few people who have made the connection without too much trouble. Saying it 400 years ago would have been brave!

    • Michele Travis profile image

      Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Perhaps it is like The Morning Star is something like the Anti Christ.

      And the Bright and Morning Star IS Christ.

      Just wondering.

      This is an interesting hub, by the way.

    • profile image

      MysticMoonlight 3 years ago

      Thomas, I actually LOL'd at this:

      Back when I was a mischievous 19 year old, I made up a dream with a lot of symbolism to suggest Lucifer and Jesus were the same, and sent it in an email to a Christian website to see what they would say. However, they didn't pick up on the connection and just gave me the usual "it might not mean what you think" talk. Oh well :( hehe

      I cannot stop laughing! Your sense of humor is just awesome!

    • sparkster profile image

      Marc Hubs 3 years ago from United Kingdom

      Interesting hub... hilarious comments!!

    • Thomas Swan profile image
      Author

      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks for commenting Christiananrkist. I agree with your interpretation of Isaiah 14:12. My interpretation is simply that Lucifer is called the morning star, and this is the same name that is used for Jesus. As you rightly point out, this requires me to suggest that Jesus also wanted to replace God. This could be why he pretended to be God in the flesh, and flaunted his powers in seemingly benevolent ways. However, I would contend that charity is not inherently good if it fails to raise a person from their squalor. Give a starving man a loaf of bread and he’ll be starving again tomorrow. Anyway, that’s a deeper philosophical discussion.

      I get the idea that Lucifer becomes Satan after the fall from the Christian tradition that Lucifer and Satan are both “evil”, and both supposedly fell from heaven. If they’re not the same being, I would be surprised. Nevertheless, I admitted that the connection is a shaky one. Names do mean a lot in scripture, but just read Revelation 12:7 again… “And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan”. Here we see four names being used for the same entity. Why would Lucifer not be another of his names? Why would Jesus not be?

      You talk about speculation when it comes to divine births, and you’re right. Most of the hub is speculation!

      You’re being a little pedantic about Job. I did actually quote Job 38:6 and 38:7 from the KJV. It’s also clear from what I quoted that it is a question (hence the question mark).

      Revelation 20:7 is merely to show that the devil is a deceiver and trickster on a mass scale. That’s the point I am making. Also the devil doesn’t need to “create” to trick men into creating a religion around him. I see the sentence of mine you picked up on though, and I have now edited that accordingly.

      I disagree with you on Corinthians 11:12. It says Satan can appear as an angel of light. It refers to Satan’s servants as being false apostles, not Satan himself. With Job 1:12, one instance of Satan backing down when God tells him to doesn’t stop him from repeatedly deceiving people when God says nothing. My understanding is that God allows Satan to tempt and deceive people in order to test them.

      I will change tricks for miracles in the hub. Jesus did profit from misery, and he did nothing to permanently help the people in any physical way. He became a messiah, and it looks to me like he lived fairly well. I doubt he knew that the Romans would crucify him, but if he rose from the dead, what did he lose?

      Thanks again for your comment.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      That's certainly possible Michele. I think what the hub shows is there are many ways to interpret scripture. Whichever interpretation we end up believing is usually that which we most want to believe. I'm glad you found it interesting.

      Cheers MysticMoonlight! Oh I was a right terror back then. I considered putting phosphorus into holy water so I could pretend I was a demon being burned by it. I thought better of it though!

      Thanks sparkster. Agreed, I think the comments make these sort of hubs worthwhile!

    • profile image

      christiananrkist 3 years ago

      I actually wasn't pointing out that your interpretation requires you to suggest that Jesus also wanted to replace God. What I was trying to point out is that Jesus and Satan could not be the same entity. I'm sure you already know based on John 1:1

      In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

      to suggest Jesus wanted to replace God or pretended to be God would be the same as saying God wanted to replace or pretended to be God.

      Lucifer is another name for Satan. Jesus is not. Why not? Because Jesus or Yeshua translates to the Lord saves. Lucifer is translated as the morning star. This is what I meant when I was saying names meant something to the Jewish. They didn't just pick random name. they picked names that literally described someone. This is why you also see people going by more than one name in the bible as i pointed out earlier.

      To be fair I don't think most of your hub is speculation. you give scripture to back you your claims and make some good points to think about. I'm just giving my reasons why I disagree. I did think the virgin birth argument is speculative though.

      I understand I'm being pedantic on Job. I apologize for that. I just think the little things matter so others can do their own research if they want.

      2Corinthians11:14 actually says Satan disguised/masquerades/transforms himself AS an angel of light. I can see where there would be confusion here though, especially with the transform translation. I still hold to the notion that its communicating the devil will often use the truth to spread his deception. I will definitely do more research on this and find other supporting scripture.

      Jesus didn't become messiah. He already was. the word messiah, the annointed one. Where do you find that he lived fairly well? He was on a constant travel. You see this in several area's where it says he went to, arrived at, came to. In Luke 9:58 when speaking to a man that wanted to follow him, he let the man know what it entailed to be a follower. "And Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.

      I'm not sure why you would doubt Jesus knew the Romans would crucify him.

      Matthew 26:39

      And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

      Jesus definitely knew the horrors that awaited him. Another gospel says sweat ran down his head like drops of blood.

      What did Jesus lose if he was Resurrected? This is like asking what did the innocent man who went to prison in the place of a loved one lose because he was still released later. Jesus took on the sins of the world. An agony none of us could imagine.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Christiananrkist:

      "to suggest Jesus wanted to replace God or pretended to be God would be the same as saying God wanted to replace or pretended to be God."

      That requires the pre-belief that Jesus IS God though. My starting point is that Jesus was deceiving people into thinking he was God. It's the same with his name. If people who thought he was God called him Jesus, this only suggests that they were deceived.

      What I meant by "he became their messiah" was "he became popular and achieved notoreity". Whatever his title may have been, I'm speaking in real physical terms here. If he had stayed at home his whole life, he wouldn't have become the people's messiah in the way I meant it.

      The way I see it, Jesus and his entourage found food and a place to sleep in most of the places they visited. I imagine his reputation as a prophet spread just as quickly, prompting the good will of the people he (may have) duped. Presumably they set up camp a few times on their travels, hunted wild animals, and sang around the campfire too. Nothing wrong with living the nomad life for a bit in the early days.

      I don't think that quote proves he knew he would be crucified. Think of it this way... if Jesus' followers believed he was a special prophet from God, or even the Son of God, then how would they reconcile this with the notion of him being executed like any other man? Of course they'll say it was all part of his plan. Also, he knew that the Romans had a warrant for his arrest long before they finally caught him.

      Even so, if we go back to a supernatural interpretation for a moment. Isn't it possible that Lucifer was performing these deeds in order to buy his way back into heaven? If that were the case, then death was part of his plan.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks Michelle for the comment. I removed only because it had a paragraph copied from wiki. If Jesus was sweating blood because he was stressed, it could have been because he knew the Romans were after him. I don't know though. I'd have to know the specific time it happened.

    • Michele Travis profile image

      Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

      Sorry, should have put it in my own words. Was being lazy. you did the right thing.

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      christiananrkist 3 years ago

      I see what you saying now. Sorry, I missed that about Jesus deceiving people. I guess I'm a little confused though about what you're saying. Just a few questions for ya if you don't mind. Sometimes it takes a while for me to understand.do you think Jesus is real? Is Satan real? Assuming Satan is real, besides the bible, what reliable information do we have about him? Are you basing knowledge of and information of Satan you get from the bible, or from another source? If its from another source, I can't really argue or defend any of this. If its from the bible, then everything the bible says must be taken into consideration when making this argument work. Specifically the arguments of Jesus and Lucifer being the same and Jesus deceiving people because of it. If the information is coming from the bible, it clearly states who Jesus is, that he did predict his betrayal,was the messiah and other points I have made. I actually don't normally look to the bible for answers when objecting to atheist's arguments or discussing certain questions. In this case however, I don't think we can make an argument for who Jesus was or who Satan was without turning to scripture. Unless of course like I said you have other sources (which i would like to see) on Satan, in which I can't make arguments for, because they would most likely not correlate with what the bible teaches and what I would believe.

      Just a side note on your last question. Based on scripture you cannot "buy" your way into heaven no matter how many works. Christianity is not a saved by works religion. we are save by grace, through faith alone, so that no one can boast.

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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      I think Jesus existed in history as a human being who became the leader of a large cult that later became a religion. I don't think Satan is real, but if Jesus was Satan, then the New Testament was written by people he deceived. My only source is the Bible.

      "Christianity is not a saved by works religion. we are save by grace, through faith alone, so that no one can boast."

      Christianity was formed after Jesus died though. As far as I know, Yahweh rewards those who follow his commandments; those who do good on the Earth. Even so, the Jews didn't have any definitive idea of heaven. The purpose of Jesus/Lucifer's good deeds may have been to try to reconcile with God so he could become an angel again. It would explain the experiences he had in the desert... the internal struggle between good and evil inside him.

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      christiananrkist 3 years ago

      I would read the old testament again. they were saved the same as we are now. by God's grace. not by works.

      I basically don't have anything else to say then if you don't believe Satan is real, and your only source comes from the bible. Because of this in order to make the argument of Jesus being Satan, you must essentially pick and choose certain verses of the bible, then impose your own context and meaning into them and making a brand new story which you wrote. This argument can never work using the christian bible in its correct context, because it is very clear who is who.

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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Uh, that's just not true though. Jews get to heaven by observing Jewish law. This involves`mitzvot' which is to uphold the commandments by performing good deeds, acts of kindness, charity, and `tikkun olam' (repairing the world). Explained here: http://www.examiner.com/article/how-do-jews-get-to...

      This idea of being "saved" has nothing to do with the Old Testament.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      I've heard this argument before, but you argue it really well. Honestly myself I don't believe the Bible, or in Jesus or Satan, but it serves as another example that the Bible can support any argument anyone wants.

      I wasn't surprised to see the comment section exploding, lol. But as a scanned through it I was struck yet again by how little Christians actually know about Judaism (ie, that Satan is not a fallen angel, there is no hell, the messiah is supposed to be human, there's no such concept of salvation, etc.). I always find it funny when Christians try to argue Christianity through Jewish beliefs, when they're getting the Jewish beliefs all wrong.

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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks Wiccan. Yea, I heard about it around 10 years ago now. It just stuck with me all that time for some reason. It would be a great story if true. Much more interesting than the Bible IMO! Christians know a fair bit about the Bible, but I've found they think with certain absolute truths in place. This can lead to assumptions about what happens to the Jews, even though their religion has different ideas that would have been relevant up until Christianity took hold. I should have clarified in the previous comment that Jews don't have much concept of heaven either, though there are a few mentions of continued existence after death, and reuniting with loved ones.

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      SAM ELDER 3 years ago from Home

      Comment section is really an inspiration for new article...

      I enjoyed this one... I like that you express straightly your point of view...

      I like your hub and I respect your logic and your believes...

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      Buildreps 3 years ago from Europe

      Very interesting article, Thomas. I browsed trough your inspiring articles. You managed to connect different passages of the bible to one convincing statement. It made me think of a passage of Thoth "..but weigh in the balance if his words be of light. For many there are who walk in dark brightness and yet are not the children of light".

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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thanks for commenting Buildreps. Also, thanks for directing me to that ancient writing. I have just searched for and favorited the "emerald tablets of Thoth" to read later. The Bible would be a much more interesting book if Jesus was actually a "wolf in sheep's clothing", or the "dark brightness" from Thoth. Perhaps it also brings new meaning to the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". If Christianity were a Luciferian cult, hell would be overflowing with Christians.

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      Thomas Swan 3 years ago from New Zealand

      Thank you also Sam Elder for your kind words. I'm sorry I missed your comment before. Yes, I found the comments quite interesting and pleasantly non-argumentative for the most part. I hope they inspired you to write a hub of your own!

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      Thomas Duncan 2 years ago

      Well done, Thomas Swan, entertaining ring. I'm not an expert or well versed on the NT or OT. Jesus and Lucifer Christ seem to be two separate entities, as Jesus is supposed to be the (first) biological child of God while Lucifer was the first Angel, whom rebelled against God. I mean, the notion is entertaining but preposterous.

      Lucifer is a fascinating figure, as well as Satan and Beelzebub, whom I think are 3 separate entities. Lucifer and Satan are different, while Satan and Sameal may be the same, just my theory. It was Satan not Lucifer that was trying to tell Jesus to abandon his campaign because he was going to be crucified, from what I remember.

      It's difficult after centuries of interpretations, translations and changes made to the original story.

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      raspat 2 years ago

      I think that all of us has little truth but never unify that comment. Here's mine short and simple. By words babilon means confusion. That's why we must get out of her. The name Jesus is the mistake we make the devils has change the true name of God and having us praise an unknown God. For the word Jesus itself those not mean Yeshua. Yeshua in English is Joshua. So we all are debating a topic that is endless confusion. One advise a person with the spirit is a son. God as the devil works through man. Simple we are evil or good. The truth you nail in saying that Christ was fighting the inner demons in the temptation. He came to show us the way and all if want to see heaven must fight our inner evil. We know Christ had the decision to do good or evil and like Adam and eve at creation. Same with Christ and us the temptation is there as long as we have that free choice. We must defeat this.

      All who have his spirit will know the truth. Congrats doh on your efforts to look outside the box. For the world has lost it's knowledge. All is wrong no Christian religion is righteous. We must look in our self and like Christ change the evil to divinity. The passage where the Bible refer to the morning stars bisnall telling us that we where and at a point must make one decision ether to remain evil or become sons of God therefore divine. Bless.

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      frank burns 2 years ago

      They are obviously the same. There was no devil or Jesus in Judaism until they went to Persia. There they got Jesus/Devil from Zoroastrianism. Any Jew knows this. Satan is the Great Deceiver, and has deceived about 1/2 of the world.

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      Buildreps 2 years ago from Europe

      I had some progressive insights recently. God (OT) and the Devil are the same - definitely. This is Yahweh or Jaldabaoth who was cast from heaven to below and called himself God and rules over the ignorant mankind, standing between man and their Soul.

      Christ on his turn came to earth to tell people that God is inside them (their Soul). The second coming of Christ is what most Christians take literally (oh, again). What is meant with the second coming of Christ is that mankind discovers that their Christ is inside and that "god" is not their supreme ruler but in fact a deceptive one standing between them and the highest dimension. Jesus was the one who brought humanity this message already 2000 years ago.

      Mixing Jesus with the devil is a misinterpretation in my humble opinion.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 2 years ago from New Zealand

      Thank you to the guest commenters for your interesting words. I can agree with most of what you've said.

      Thanks for dropping in Buildreps. I do like your interpretation as it fits with my belief that we should move away from religion and discover what it means to be human, how best to survive in this world, and how to care for each other in a way that benefits us all. I see religious people propping up obscene, corporate systems and corrupt governments simply because those systems present them with empty platitudes about how wonderful their religion is.

      Actions speak louder than words, and if Christians really believed in Jesus' works and teachings, they would be outraged by the disgusting inequality, corruption, hatred, and war in our world - not calling for it themselves, or propping up systems that perpetuate it. So yes, religion is holding us back.

      I actually agree that mixing Jesus and the devil is a misinterpretation. For me, there is no correct interpretation for what's in the Bible. It's all misinterpreted. I guess I'm saying that my rehashing of this fairy tale is no less appropriate than the rehashing that's become accepted by a third of the world as truth.

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      Jesus H. Christ 2 years ago

      Hey man!

      This is one diabolical slur on ma Holy Moly Name. I made this world, dude, and don't you forget it. To hell with your crazy Atheist articulations! One day I'm a-comin back an' me an' my bro' Luci gonna gitcha.

      Hellfire, Dude! Hell-freakin'-fire!

      Sincerely,

      J.H.C.

    • Thomas Swan profile image
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      Thomas Swan 2 years ago from New Zealand

      Thank you Jesus. I look forward to our meeting. I will count on your powers of forgiveness to see me into the light!

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      Sharon 21 months ago

      Morning star, crescent moon. Mohammad. Muslim religion.

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