The Truth About Blacks and The Curse of Cain
It still cannot be determined if God disapproved of the ban without revelation from Him about it.
- Lifting of the Ban Healing of the Soul
Whether the ban was of man or of God is not important ... it is your purpose to be true to your beliefs—the things God have revealed to you. I know that the gospel has been restored and that the missionaries who taught me of the gospel changed my lif
Heavenly Father has no concern for the origin of mortal human physical constitution or heritage seeing as all Christians have been purified by the Holy Ghost searing the impurity of their physical genealogy and changing their beings into the offspring of Jesus Christ—not only for the Black man and woman but for all men and women regardless of race!
There is no curse upon a child of Christ no matter what he or she may have been!
If there were a curse, revelation repudiated it! President Spencer W. Kimball and the Counsel of the Twelve received a revelation from God to extend the priesthood services to all men. How does this revelation repudiate a curse? It will be addressed heretofore.
Orson Hyde
Orson Hyde’s Black Lineage Logic and its Effect on the Church
It is true that some LDS Christians believed, and many still do believe, that African Blacks carry the mark of the curse of Cain through Ham and his wife Egyptus in the form of a high concentration of melanin.
It is also true that many other Christians held fast to that notion also for decades who made public apologizes for so doing. Officially the Church of Jesus Christ has never taught that Black Africans are the seed of Cain represented on the earth as Satan's seed or that they sat idly by in the war in heaven.
Unofficially, however, leaders and members have expressed these ideas since the beginning. Arguably the father of the idea, Orson Hyde used logic to deduce that slavery and bondage of the African Black is the result of actions before this life.
Hyde postulated that some of the children of God failed to perform valiantly in the pre-mortal world of spirits. Those less valiant ones were reserved to fill the lineage of Cain and eventually Ham concluded Hyde . Offensive? Yes. True? Plausibly, based on his limited logic, but no.
The fact that it is not a true teaching of Jesus Christ did not change the popular acceptance of the logic by members of the church and the teaching spread among church members. The teachings based on Hyde's postulate found their way into unofficial writings of the church and even missionary literature. Those teachings have been removed presently in all works associated with church literature.
Brigham Young
This is totally anonymous! Please Participate!
Do you believe that Blacks of African heritage represent the seed of Cain?
President Brigham Young refuted the possibility of this falsehood in his support of a first presidency message declaring that all who obtained the first estate of life did so with earnest.
This notice to the church from the presidency went in direct contradiction to Hyde's postulate that Blacks sat by and did not participate in the great battle for Jehovah. For many Christians, this is a non-issue since they do not believe in pre-mortal life However, for LDS Christians, it is a very poignant position to clarify since many people have been disillusioned by past statements of church leaders and the practice of banning Black men from officiating in priesthood ordinances because of a presumed curse.
No soul sat idly by in the war commenced in heaven; but all souls chose either to support the chosen Jesus Christ with His captain Michael or Lucifer and his cohort that rebelled with him. It is of great importance that all Christians know that no person ever born rejected Jehovah, not even Cain. All the strength of character that he used to fight God in mortality he used to support Jehovah in his premortal life.
Pratt meant well in his attempt to support the ban that President Young presented to the church regarding Blacks of African descent –free or not.
President Young announced that the Negro shall not receive the priesthood until God gives him revelation stating to do so. He was speaking to the territorial government as the governor, but the policy he issued became policy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nonetheless. The Church at that time was comprised of mostly White abolitionist.
Mormons historically did not support slavery or the mistreatment of any person or group simply because of appearance. The pronouncement from President Brigham Young, however, remained in effect until the Lord did open the Heavens and reveal that all worthy men are eligible to receive and function in the priesthood of God June 20, 1978.
Many attempts along the century-long journey to understand the origins of President Young's pronouncement have surfaced unprofitable. He made a declaration that became church policy. His declaration was based on the cultural situation at the time--including his dealings with Black LDS Christians.
William McCary
A minority of historians suggest that William McCary's actions in Winter Quarters, Nebraska influenced Brigham Young's decision to initiate the priesthood ban. McCary was a bi-racial member of the church who claimed to have revelatory powers and supernatural gifts following his baptism.
He was excommunicated for apostasy in March 1847 for his assertions but continued to lobby followers to his cause and adding women to his version of plural marriage. According to some historians, the fact that McCary married White women elicited a negative reaction from the members at Winter Quarters towards all Blacks garnering support of the latter declarations by Brigham young and the ban on the priesthood.
Parley P. Pratt expressed the opinion weeks after McCray was excommunicated that McCray did mot have the right to have the priesthood because of his lineage through the loins of Ham whose son was cursed to the rights of the priesthood.
This view distinguished all those who went after McCray as lost souls. It is very likely McCray was the last straw that allowed Brigham Young to exercise his view as a matter of policy during a gubernatorial address.
It made sense to the people of that time in which slavery was a big issue and Mormons were thought to steal away the slaves of rightful owners to set them free. Some did steal them away as did some actually owned slaves.
Darius Gray
Marvin Perkins
Do You Believe the LDS Church should submit an official apology for banning members of Black African Heritage from the Priesthood?
Source Scriptures Here
- Moses 5:22-41 - Cain's Curse
Adam and Eve bring forth children—Adam offers sacrifice and serves God—Cain and Abel are born—Cain rebels, loves Satan more than God, and becomes Perdition—Murder and wickedness spread—The gospel is preached from the beginning. - Genesis 4:11-16 - Cain's Curse
Eve bears Cain and Abel—They offer sacrifices—Cain slays Abel and is cursed by the Lord, who also sets a mark upon him—The children of men multiply—Adam begets Seth, and Seth begets Enos. - Abraham 1:21-27 - Egyptus Lineage Curse towards Priesthood
Abraham seeks the blessings of the patriarchal order—He is persecuted by false priests in Chaldea—Jehovah saves him—The origins and government of Egypt are reviewed. - Genesis 9:18-25 - Canaan Cursing
Noah and his sons are commanded to multiply and fill the earth—They are given dominion over all forms of life—The death penalty is decreed for murder—God will not again destroy the earth by a flood—Canaan is cursed; Shem and Japheth are blessed.
Blacks in the Scriptures.
Darius Gray and Marvin Perkins have undertaken a cultural approach to refute the century old attitudes and myths about Blacks in relation to the scriptures and Mormon theological perspective in general. LDS have standard works including the Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. Gray and Perkins use these records and their intellectual prowess in a collection of DVD's called Blacks in the Scriptures.
What is the Curse
IN Adam and Eve: The Dreary World of Mortality, under the heading New Hope in Cain, then Abel, then Seth: Cain and Abel, I give perspective on how Cain came to be the father of Satan's lies and cursed of the Lord. After the Great Deluge with Noah as the new Patriarch of the human race, the curse of Cain was perpetuated in a child of Ham who married one of the daughters of Cain's lineage--Ham that is..
There was a curse pronounced upon Cain, but it was not that his skin was black. His mark was a blessing so that those who saw him and his kind would not slay them. What was truly sinister about Cain is his worship of the devil. His children perpetuated it. There is no indication that his skin color or race became Black; but his soul and practices were definitely black.
Egyptus could have been no kin to Cain, but preserved the curse in the land because she practiced the arts of Cain and taught them to her children after the Great Deluge, the children of Ham. There does not have to be any blood relation for that to occur. Either way, Egpytus was cursed.
There was a curse upon the descendents of Ham through Canaan, who was Ham's fourth son, for uncovering the nakedness of his father Noah. Without further information it makes no sense for Noah to curse one of his grandsons.
Only Canaan was Cursed
Why not all the children of Ham? Why this particular son? Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut are also the children of Ham and there is no curse pronounced upon them. Also, the curse is not a skin color or race. It was to be servants to the children of Shem who would be blessed of the Lord.
Ham had a daughter named Egyptus who is said to have had a son named Pharaoh who was righteous, but was forbidden from the priesthood because of his lineage from Ham, whose wife happened to also be Egyptus and she preserved the curse in the land.
If Egyptus preserved the curse in the land from Cain, which Abraham informs is not having rights to the priesthood; Noah describes as being a servant of servants and God himself describes as Cain being the ruler of Satan, accursed of men and cut off from God, then it is safe to conclude that Cain was banned from the priesthood and all of his children.
Linking all the scriptures together gives the correct perspective; whereas taking each individually does nothing but fan discord.
Brigham Young used that curse as a standard to put limitations on the priesthood banning Black people until God provided revelation to end such a practice.
What is not true is that Black people are a representation of Satan on the earth or evil from the beginning any more than other racial groups are. Only those who practice the lifestyles contrary to righteousness represent the Devil in mortality.
Every person that was evil from the beginning never had the privilege to come to earth and receive a body. I talk more about this in The Truth about Hell: Avoid it! referring to Satan demons and the sons of perdition.
The original curse logically, when combined with the tidbits of explanation throughout the scriptures is to be cut off from God, priesthood, gospel message and spirit.
Joseph Smith is said to have taught that Black people are the children of Ham. Ham's children could not have priesthood. Brigham Young had a reason to create the policy because it logically made sense based on the information given to him. The Lord never repudiated his decision to ban Blacks until over a century after his death. Apparently it did not matter to God whether the venue was a governmental meeting instead of an ecclesiastical meeting where President Young announced the ban of priesthood on the Negro members of the church.
- Race and the Priesthood
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints embraces the universal human family. God created many diverse races & ethnicities & esteems them all equally
Rodric29 as Voice on the Subject!
The subject of the curse of Cain continued through Ham is a cancerous sore blighting the face of Black LDS Christian psychology that will not disappear and must be slowly treated so that those who enter The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have a current point of reference when the knowledge of the priesthood ban and its connection with the Hamitic curse is thrust upon them by some concerned relative or gloating rival.
It still cannot be determined if God disapproved of the ban without revelation from Him about it. It is evident that racism perpetuated the ban and the false teachings supporting it however. In a message to the world on its official website,
Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form (Race and the Priesthood)
Any Question that about the stance of the church on Blacks and the priesthood is answered in this clear statement. However, detractors are waiting for this to be read from the pulpit.
- The Book of Mormon Led Me to Jesus and His Church - Rational Faiths | Rational Faiths
I felt the truth of it and believed it with my whole heart. That was not enough for these servants of Jesus Christ; so, it would not be enough for me. - Blacks and the Priesthood Revisited
- Standing For Something, Gordon B. Hinckley
New York Times Bestseller titled, Standing for Something; 10 Neglected Virtues That Will Heal our Hearts and Homes written by Gordon B. Hinckley, president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches us of a divine code of ethics. - Personal Experience with the False Teachings of the Curse of Cain
Many Black Mormons may have had a similar experience with finding out this malicious perspective of the fence sitting children of God who became Black and cursed before birth. I have seven children who I do not want to feel the level of self-hate I f - Black Latter Day Saints Page on Facebook
Your dentist may be a Mormon or your school teacher. Mormons are living normal lives everywhere theses days, even on Facebook and within the Black community. - Deon Plummer Latter-day Saint Profile | Black Latter-day Saints Testify
I am a DIFFERENT type of Mormon, made for a specific assignment from my Heavenly Father. I do not apologize for not being cute and Utah cuddly - Sandile Makasi Black Latter-day Saint Profile
Since joining this BDLS group, it seeks to unite members throughout the world, inspire, share ideas and lead them to Christ. I have loved reading inspirational stories. I also like the fact that there are updates on the growth of the church throughou
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Comments
I don't believe that African Americans are the bloodline of Cain period. Anyone who wants to accept Jesus as there Lord is freed from generational curses- all we have to do is go before God in the name of Jesus for them to be forgiven & broke.
What's most important is are we doing what Jesus commissioned us to do? Spread the Gospel of Jesus to the world offering them all freedom from the bondage of sin. God bless you Rodric!
Very interesting reading. Thank you.
This is an interesting article. When I was first introduced to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 32 years ago it was shortly after the revelation in 1978. I was watching the news, that was the first time that I had ever heard of the Mormons. 1979 I graduated from high school and enlisted in the Army. The Army sent me to Germany and for the second time I was introduced to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Like Mr. Anderson I took the church at face value and the only negative thing that I heard about the church came from my family. They told me that the church was a cult and that I had been brain washed. But, I had prayed and had received a witness that the church was true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I served a mission in Puerto Rico. It was in Puerto Rico that I first learned of Mr Gray and Blacks and the Priesthood. For anyone reading this if you truly want to know if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true Do what I did. Ask God if it is true or not, ask Him if Joseph Smith was a prophet or not. But, ask with real intent nothing wavering and I promise you He will answer you.
My name is Samuel Dargan, I'm black and I'm a mormon.
- Author
Thank you for posting you testimony Brother Dargan. I have to combat the opinion of others who berate me also about joining the cult or being deceived. My response is that I have prayed to Father about it and he spoke to me independent of all others. It does not matter what the members of the Church did or are doing in light of revelation from God. We can find scripture where the saints were disobedient many times causing non-members to falter in the Book of Mormon let alone modern days!
Yeah ok...but the truth is that the "revelation" by the 12 was the US Government telling the mormon church that if they continued to openly exclude African Americans or any other ethnic group that they would lose their religious status as well as their 501C3 tax status or its counterpart at the time. Therefore they would then have to pay taxes on all that tithing money they "force" collect from their members. Please find and read the book Secret Ceremonies where the daughter of one of the 12...she never said...outed the dirty laundry of the mormon church. Albeit, believe what you choose. But please stop saying that you represent Jesus Christ, as you know that you do not. Even the order of the 12 is an example that has nothing to do with Jesus Christ and His Holy Word. Stop the madness and own up to who and what you are and then people can at least know what they are getting into before they commit their lives and souls to a group of 12 old men who claim that you will all become gods and rule over your own star and its planets. Of course except if you are black and then because black people are not "really humans" then of course they cannot possibly think they can become gods. Yeah ok...remember satan, yeah he was trying be like God our Heavenly Father is why he was thrown out of heaven. "You shall have no other gods before me..." Those are the Word of God. Oh well like I said, believe what you will...but be honest about it. By the way...there was NEVER any course on Ham as no human has the power to put a curse on another. especially a drunk or hung over man who was probably ashamed that his son saw him naked and drunk.
- Author
gaeparks, I read Secret Ceremonies when I was a teenager and then again on my mission in South Africa. It is the interesting work of a woman who wanted justification to masturbate because it felt good with a little bit of church bashing in there. I did not see the benefit in reading about her pornographic experience and am upset that I remember all of it, yuk.
You are entitled to your opinion, but nothing that you claim in your comment tells anyone by what authority do you make your statements. Did God commission you to speak for HIM? Are you a prophet?
I also know that God does speak to prophets today. Satan was not trying to be like God brother, he was trying to replace God.
Yes I do believe that I will be like God, how else is He going to make me a joint-heir with His Son Jesus Christ? You tell me and I will listen. I already know the answer, but I will listen.
I put the question to my 14 year old son about being a joint heir with Christ and he said in order for us to be that, either Jesus is going to come down to our level so that we can be with Him in our weak state or He is going to raise us to his level. I like the raising part because it fits with the gospel He teaches.
Thanks for commenting.
The truth about Cain and his father Ham lies in two scriptures
Genesis 9:22
"And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without"
this scripture is interpretted through leviticus 18 "7 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness."
Basically... Ham slept with his mother... and in doing so, Cain was the result of that sin.
amazing how most pastors and 'laymen' haven't seen that :)
Peace
- Author
This is supposed to be about..
- Author
That is an interesting interpretation and it makes sense to me. I could agree with it. I don't believe Ham slept with his mother, but he could have slept with his step-mother. I have never considered that possibility. Thanks for you comment and contribution. I will give this some thought and decide how to fit this into my belief system. I like it.
The Truth About Blacks and The Curse of Cain? I don't get the connection. Never did!
This is what is true and what your leaders your prophet(who gets his words from your god) teach and what you supposed to believe.
Prophet Brigham Young
Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin Journal of Discourses, 13:95
Oliver Cowdery, co found of the lds church "Let the blacks of the south be free, and our community is overrun with paupers, and a reckless mass of human beings, uncultivated, untaught and unaccustomed to provide for themselves ond Elder, co-founder of the Mormon Church:
John Taylor, third President and Prophet:
"After the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God. . . ." (jofd, 23:304; ).
- Author
Passingword, you are correct that those leaders said those things, but if you put their words in context they sound less harsh. I have read the source of these quotes you give and reading the entire transcript makes a world of difference. It is available online @ http://jod.mrm.org/1
wow.... you sound like a wife how gets beat up by her husband and still trys to defend him. They still sound raciest. let try one more, if it is used out of context.
Brigham Young . In a sermon given on March 8, 1863, Young stated,
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so" (Journal of Discourses, 10:110).
- Author
Yes it is out of context.
Why did he say that? What was the occasion of the speech? Was it political or religious?
You set the context by your own hatred toward the Mormons, which you then use unimportant sections of speech to say "See, I told you the Mormon's don't have the truth. Look at what Brigham said or at what Joseph did!"
Because the Young was racist, though not in the same context as a racist today what does that matter as regard to the church? What point are you trying to make?
So the people did and said wrong things, how does that change any of the things that they said happened regarding the church?
Let me tell you. Does it mean that they could have been wrong about other things too? Yes it does.
Does it mean that Joseph Smith could have lied about his experience and everything else? Possibly.
Their bad behavior and poor choices create reasonable doubt in the minds of some and those few leave the church or they stay.
So if I don't agree with the leaders of the past I assume you would say, that makes the present church untrue right? Well, it is an organization run by people who make mistakes. So, yeah, the whole thing could be a great deception--or based on a lie that the present leaders don't know about at best and all Mormons could be delusional.
There is no way of knowing for sure since any thing a person like me, a true believing saint says is considered the product of a frenzied or brain-washed mind.
What do you want me to say? Brigham Young was racist. What, a prophet cannot be racist? Since when did a person have to be perfect for God to use him? We have to start somewhere.
As jacked up as I am, God uses me. I am sure that I do more dirt than Brigham did. Actually I take that back. I don't know the dirt Young did.
I know myself well. I am not a holy person until I repent, which I am a long ways off from doing. I am hanging on by the grace of God. I do the same terrible things over and over again--yelling at my kids and wife, overeating, lying (even if the lies are white!) and impure thoughts. I could keep going on. Until I can avoid doing all those things, I am not fully ready to repent. I have repented enough to be a church member in good standing, but not enough to be where I want to be, which is to be just like Christ.
I just know that when I feel the Holy Ghost, my sins are forgiven and I am Holy, which is why I try to live so that I can feel that presence most of the time.
Some of the time, I don't have time for holy things and I want to do worldly things. I am working on having less and less of those feelings.
If I can be that way, I am sure all the other people on this planet whether they be prophet or not can go through those ups and downs.
As judgemental as my people are, my Mormon people, I do my best to keep my faults under control because as a people, at least in my little world, we have not learned yet to be non judgemental yet. We will though. Hopefully we will ready before Christ comes again or it will be too late.
See, it doesn't matter if I am a Mormon or not if I am not ready when Jesus comes back. I look at people one at a time and not based on an entire religion.
I learned that from my LDS leaders too. I was taught on my mission not to judge people and I obey that most of the time.
I am a Christian by the grace of Jesus Christ only and that is how I will be saved because each time I overcome something I find more stuff that is left for me to work on.
As long as I have Christ, as long as I keep my covenant with Him I am good though. I can screw up and still get forgiven.
It took the death of one of my kids to figure that one out! I am a thick headed person. I am glad I learned a portion of the grace of God for me or I would be too through!
Ok first... I have no problems with mormons. I have problems with the LDS doctrine, that's it. I have problems with a church that brains washes people to do and say what they want you to say. just like before I ( and You) started my mission.
Second... The LDS church was founded on these false doctrine.. these raciest doctrines. And the Bible scritures used to support the restoration of the LDS church is wrong. Amos 8...this scripture is talking about the israelites being kicked out of israel in captivity by the babylonians. hence a fameine of the word. The two sticks they are not the bible and the book of mormon. I's israel and juda becoming one nation again (just like the tome of David.
I hate false doctine that is spread by people that have been told what to believe.. God's word is true always has and always will. didn't need a man to restore it.
- Author
Your contention, Passingtheword, is that the LDS doctrine from the Church of Christ is false because you don't believe it. You have not proof besides your own disbelief.
You keep saying Mormons are being told what to believe. I am a Mormon. I can always go to a Protestant church if I wanted do that if I felt like I am being told what to believe. If you read my conversion you would know that I found the Book of Mormon while I was trying to convert to Islam and it converted me to Jesus Christ.
I then was contact several months later by LDS missionaries who trated into my house and told me about prophets.
I chose what to belief based on my conversations with God. Nobody force me. I was not brainwashed. It made sense to me first, then I asked God who put all my questions to rest.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and authorized church of Jesus Christ. I have asked God himself for confirmation.
In fact, I pray about everything to him because I don't just trust what the prophets claim. It is a part of my Christian faith to test all doctrines in scripture then, after I have studied it, pray about it.
If you chose to disbelieve these things it is okay with me. If you prayed about it after studying it out in your mind and God told you it is not true that is between you and God. I know that He told me it was. You cannot argue that away not matter what logic you use. I heard it from God independent of a book or a prophet. What do you say about that?
I know I have been told that the devil answered my prayers when everything else failed to change my mind by people.
If I pray in the name of Christ and still cannot talk to the real God as some people claim then to hell with it. Sense I know better than that, to heaven with it.
TThis why i say that you believe what you are told.. You don't defend the Word of God.. Not bible bash but defend the Word...(two stick and Amos 8) Just like i used to say i prayed to our heavenly father and he told me. Overtime i question all the say pray... Not to study but just believe what we are telling you. God sent us a love letter his Word the bible. That is where he has told me that is where he shows us what is true through the holy spirit opening our eyes.
Look around world religions...or cults. How they use the bible twist things around as much as they can. Then what they can't believe twist anything else they say that the rest is wrong here another book that supports our views. Look around its not just Mormons. There are several. Read revelation 12 and 13 where the anti Christ will claim to be the Christ. Then he said i will show you a new and better doctrine. You see he used the bible then introduces a new way a new doctrine.
So you are a new convert. I was the third generation. I was born into this.
It seems as the lds got to you first.
- Author
I thought that I did a good job defending my faith. What I trust is my personal communications with God. The scriptures are there to make sure I know the doctrine and how God dealt with other people. The scriptures are how I keep myself in remembrance of my covenant with Christ.
Amos 3:7 demonstrate that before the Lord does something at all, He declares it through a prophet. The children of Israel would not hearken to the prophets and stoned them if they did not like what was revealed depending on how apostate the people would become.
Amos had a hard time being accepted as a prophet just like all contemporary prophets tend to have hard time with there people. President Monson is a prophet and is rejected just as summarily as was Amos by some.
How it relates to today's world is that God foretold he would call a prophet in the last days through The Book Of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
The famine spoken of in Amos chapter 8 did occur. When John the Baptist began his ministry ushering the ministry of Jesus Christ the famine was over.
Jesus Restored the fullness of the gospel ans set up his church on the foundation of prophets and apostles. His church remained as long as the apostles were accepted by the church.
Once the church rejected the apostles and they were killed, all that was left were the Seventy and the Bishops. No new apostles were called and the church splintered.
Joseph Smith was then called to restore the gospel again and commanded to ordain apostles and prophets again for the preparation of the second coming of Jesus Christ, which he did.
Ezekiel did prophecy of the compilation of the scrolls which were gathered together and became the Bible and the plates that became the Book of Mormon.
The sticks are testimonies that were written of the reunification of the house of Israel, which is happening as we speak through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Most of the people in this church are from the Tribes of Joseph through the loins of Ephraim. The testimony of the Jews or the Bible declares that God is again going to establish his people.
The testimony of The Book of Mormon testifies that God is going to gather his people--and since then they have been gathered.
Israel is now a nation in Asia! When Christ returns, he will save them from the invading powers and they shall discover his wounds and be convert to Christianity.
The will have two witnesses of his divinity in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. The will have another in The Doctrine and Covenants. The will have another in living prophets just as you do.
You were raised in the church. I chose to accept these things comparing it to my Protestant upbringing. I lost faith in Christianity because I did not know how to pray.
Once I discovered I could talk directly to God, I have always been inspired and led the right way--when I listened that is.
I have been a member of the church for 21 years, since I was 15 years old. I have read all about the church both anti-LDS and pro-LDS.
I have studied with the Adventist, Witnesses and considered Catholicism. I was only told to pray about if God really exists by the missionaries when they finally taught me. I already believed in him. I just did not know how to pray to him.
I did not know how to pray because mostly what I heard is people yelling and shouting in the Pentecostal church I attended most of my life. No one tried to make sure I understood I could talk to God.
When I told the Witness that I prayed, the told me that God does not answer prayers directly. The Adventist told me the same thing.
My Protestant brothers and sisters told me that God hears my prayers, but never did a need arise where I needed to pray about religion because most protestant churches don't care about authority to act in God's name and say it did not matter to which church a person goes.
What is the big lie that you were told that made you leave the church and now think that I am deceived?
I appreciate your comments because it makes me not take my faith for granted.
I would really like to connect with what you are trying to tell me but I am not seeing the lies or falsehoods that you point out.
In the last days there will be false prophets. I am sure that I will not be deceived by one. It is too easy to ask God. I find true and honest people in all religions.
I also feel the spirit of God move in honest and genuine people--pastors, the pope, Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa and a host of others.
I can see that God loves all 6 billions of us people on this planet and inspires leaders of all religions to teach principles of truth that the people of each tradition will allow Him to teach.
I see God's hand in the faithful Muslim who lives his religion to the fullest and honors God the best way he or she was taught. I see the faith of the Baptist Deacon who shepherds the funds of the church honestly and gives humanitarian service. I see the altruism of the atheists and agnostics who serve God without even knowing it!
What am I deceived about? What is this great lie that I am missing. If we interpret the scriptures differently it is because I choose to accept the interpretation of the Church of Christ.
If that is what you mean by I believe what I am told then I am definitely guilty. Why would I not believe it if I agree with it?
The famine ended when the Israelites returned to Israel in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah hence bringing back the Word of God to Israel. Does that make sense to you? Amos made this prophecy that there will be a famine of the Word of God and hearing the Word of God in Israel around the year 760 BC. Israel was kicked out (exiled) from Israel by Assyrians and Babylonians in the years between 686 – 586BC. Because the Israelites were no longer in Israel the Word of God was not taught (the famine)
In 539 B.C., Cyrus of Persia conquered Babylonia. About one year later he gave the Jewish people permission to return to their homeland of Judea. The books of Ezra and Nehemiah in the Old Testament tell about the return to Israel. The books of the prophets Haggai and Zechariah also come from this time. Sometime between 500 and 425 B.C. the priest named Ezra encouraged the people to return to their Jewish traditions and to obey the Law of Moses. This return from exile brought back the teaching and the hearing of the word of god. This is what Amos 8 is talking about. It has nothing to do with LDS doctrine.
Jesus did not restore the gospel he fulfilled it. The Old Testaments ushers in Jesus and He fulfills all of their prophecies. How many times does something need to be restored with such a powerful God!!
The 2 sticks…. They represent the kingdoms (or Houses) not books. At the time of David then Soloman, Israel was one nation just like the Lord wanted. The nation slit into 2. The Northern Kingdom, known as Israel or Ephraim. The Southern Kingdom called Judah. These to kingdoms finally became one Nation in 1948. One stick!!!!!
You say most of the church are from the line of Ephraim but according to the LDS you are from the line of satan.
You didn’t you know how to pray? It gives you an outline in the bible. The Bible is full of prayers David singing shouting dancing praying. The bible said that we have direct access to God.. Remember the vial was torn.. Jesus is our mediator. Have you not read this in the bible? All this time you were looking for answers from man and religion instead of the Word of God
Now you have the LDS church telling you something and you have received it.
You keep saying you study with this group and that group.. How about you study the Bible. No bios no outside source telling you what to believe. Just you and God… the True God.
This is long enough I ll share why I left the LDS later.
I think there are many dimensions to this subject, and related subjects. I've been trying to figure out, for most of my life (one of many, many ongoing questions/areas of personal study), how all the nations, etc. came to be. I'm fairly confident about much of my knowledge, but there are many, many questions about ancestry, etc. that continue to elude me.
I think the question of whether or not Cain's skin was darkened considerably, and that of his descendants, etc., has become a question that is repugnant to many, because of the inferences regarding what that could mean. So... it isn't a subject that I tend to be more candid about. I try to use a great deal of tact.
I will say that I believe that all the nations certainly came from Noah (as well as the wives that Noah's sons married). It is commonly believed that the descendants of Japheth largely migrated to Europe, Asia/India, etc. (all parts of Asia), and parts of Oceania. The descendants of Shem migrated to Europe as well, the Middle East esp., as well as Asia/India, etc., and parts of Oceania. The descendants of Canaan (son of Ham) went all over the place-forming a large percentage of the ancestry of East Asians, esp. more in the southeast/Southern China, etc., as well as virtually most all the tropical areas of the Eastern Hemisphere, from Central Africa to Papua New Guinea. Of the other sons of Ham-Mizraim was largely wiped out, to my recollection, they were the "old" Egyptians. There may be some more descendants of Mizraim hanging out in the Mid East, I honestly wouldn't know. The descendants of Phut kind of did the same thing as the descendants of Canaan, they spread out over the tropical areas of the world. But it is true that a good concentration of them are in NW Africa (the "old" Libya, etc.). Many descendants of Phut, no doubt, migrated south into the tropical areas of Africa, along with a certain number of the descendants of Canaan in Eastern Africa. But, most certainly, along with Canaan, they made up a good percentage of the ancestry of SE Asia, Southern China, etc. Cush was the primary ancestor of Africans. We already know that the Ethiopians and Somalians trace their ancestry back to Cush, as well as the Dravidians and others in SE Asia and Oceania that have very dark skin. (The Dravidians, Malaysians, etc. have a good deal of ancestry from Elam as well...) Western, Central, etc. Africans are likely descended from a mixture of descendants of Ham and Egyptus. We know that the Yoruba tribe traces their ancestry back to Nimrod. This all being said, we don't know precisely when certain groups of people suddenly (or gradually) had darker skin, etc. There are members of the church that may believe in more "climate" related reasons for the different races, etc. Either way, we're just trying to figure out the real history of the world, bit by bit. I'm only really interested in how things came to be, and I've always felt very inadequate when it came to why certain people couldn't hold the priesthood in the past. But, you know, all that changed roughly, when I was born. I wish people would get their heads on straight when it came to the church... and church leaders. Every single apostle I've ever known of, as well as the vast majority of other members of the church (lets say, white LDS members), always/most always treated others who were not white rather well, in my opinion, or no different than they would treat someone who was white, in many cases. Most others had far more problems with people who weren't white, esp. the imperialists in Africa, Asia, etc. Anyway, that's a different subject... Peace out. :)
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Thanks for commenting here and sharing your knowledge about the subject. There is speculation that a man William McCary may have been the catalyst for the declaration that President Young made about the Negro not having the rights to the priesthood until God reveals otherwise. Apparently McCray claimed to have revelations after he was baptized and ordained to the priesthood and was excommunicated during the Winter Quarters Era. He was a Bi-racial man of African and European decent.
After his excommunication he started his own following winning a number of the flock to his side. He also set up polygamous marriages with White women whom he entice into the relationship. He claimed to be a prophet. The leaders of the church of course did not like that. President Young may have considered this affront as another justification among other reasons.
As far as the curse of Cain or the descendants of Cain, I do believe that Blacks or Negros may have the blood of the descendants through Ham along with just about every other person on earth! I think that Blacks are just identified with the bloodline more because of the cultural need to devolve the issue into one group so that it is nicely packaged.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to believe that God created the African race along with all of the other races. How can all of the races come from one man? DNA shows that we are not from the same line.
Let me share my 2 cents.
On the sixth day God created man.
Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
So is this man Adam? No… Man in this verse in from the Hebrew word אָדַם, which means Mankind (the races). I got that from the Strongs Concordance.
And guess what God said about these men (Black, white, red, big eyes slanted eyes, big nose) whatever trait there is out there.
Gen 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
God said they were good. Not cursed. They were all good. They made him happy. He loved what he created.
Then what happened; On the seventh God rested
Gen 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Now after God rested he said that he needed to create a farmer.
Gen 2:5
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And this man was called Adam which means reddish skin, to show blood in the face. His line would be the line of Jesus.
Now did these races survive the flood? YES
Gen 7:9
There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
Gen 7:15
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
God wanted to save all of the races. They were all good. Where do you think the Orientals got their characteristics from? Do you think the further west they went, the smaller their eyes got. God created them and said that they were good.
Those that say that blacks are cursed are liars!! This belief, these men were all raciest and wanted to make the race they hated lower than them. They were all liars!!!!
I don’t understand why it is so hard to believe that God created the African race along with all of the other races. How can all of the races come from one man? DNA shows that we are not from the same line.
Let me share my 2 cents.
On the sixth day God created man.
Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
So is this man Adam? No… Man in this verse in from the Hebrew word אָדַם, which means Mankind (the races). I got that from the Strongs Concordance.
And guess what God said about these men (Black, white, red, big eyes slanted eyes, big nose) whatever trait there is out there.
Gen 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
God said they were good. Not cursed. They were all good. They made him happy. He loved what he created.
Then what happened; On the seventh God rested
Gen 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Now after God rested he said that he needed to create a farmer.
Gen 2:5
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And this man was called Adam which means reddish skin, to show blood in the face. His line would be the line of Jesus.
Now did these races survive the flood? YES
Gen 7:9
There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
Gen 7:15
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
God wanted to save all of the races. They were all good. Where do you think the Orientals got their characteristics from? Do you think the further west they went, the smaller their eyes got. God created them and said that they were good.
Those that say that blacks are cursed are liars!! This belief, these men were all raciest and wanted to make the race they hated lower than them. They were all liars!!!!
- Author
You are right. Blacks are not cursed. I cannot agree more. People curse themselves by the way they live their lives. God does not have to do a thing!
But that is what the the lds believe. You.. Your mother your grandmothers, Were a cures not good enough to received what God said he would give to all that believe on the Lord.
You did not respond to the sticks comment 4 months. I will play alone if you do.
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That is what many LDS believed for many years. We were wrong. I am sure I responded to it. I will do so again at a later time if it wasn't sufficient.
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By the P, you keep mentioning that we teach that my physical heritage is from Satan when that is not true. There is not official doctrine or ever was one that teachers such blasphemy. God Himself has declared that we are all of one blood through Adam and Eve. That is what is taught and that is what has been true from the beginning.
Your prophets that speak to god..taught false doctrine for all these years. If they were true prophets and heard from the True God, wouldn't you think that God, the real God, Would have told them to stop with this wrong doctrine or teaching. And fomer presidant Hinkley never said that it was wrong just that it is time for a change.
I had to google his.
In 1881, church president (prophet, one who hears from god) John Taylor said "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God; and that man should be a free agent to act for himself, and that all men might have the opportunity of receiving or rejecting the truth, and be governed by it or not according to their wishes and abide the result; and that those who would be able to maintain correct principles under all circumstances, might be able to associate with the Gods in the eternal worlds." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22 page 304).
- Author
You are right. These men should have known, but they didn't and the Lord did not do anything about it until 1978. The fact that those prophets did not obtain the answer until God felt that the church was ready is a testimony to me that He answers line upon line.
I think that it is wrong, but I know what God has told me. The church is His church. Sometimes the church must be chastised due to incorrect teachings as it has in the past.
If the church would not have accepted this new instruction, it would have incurred God's wrath. The New Testament is full of examples of correction that the different congregations needed from apostles.
Also, the modern church had a few apostles who held onto the past. The majority of them wanted change, but in order for change to come the apostles had to be united.
There are many reason for that, one being to avoid the church splintering over a misunderstanding between prophets. The devil would have loved to use that type of circumstance to pull a fewe otherwise righteous prophets to his side over a few points of doctrine, it is possible.
We pray for the leaders because even prophets can fall to satan.
Prophets have opinions also that are not doctrine, such as JOD that you quoted. I read the JOD, but I use the spirit to determine what is true. Also, if it disagrees with scripture it is not true or accepted.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a church where you can just relax and let the prophets control your life. We must constantly be on guard against false teachings through study, fasting and prayer. That way, we will never be led astray.
WHAT!!!!!? God let your church teach false doctrine? What? He let them? SO God let the church teach this crazy doctrine in order to make the white guys happy and degrade the blacks. WHAT!!!!?
That does not sound like my God. Even with the Egyptians, the ones that oppressed His people for 400 years, he loved and called for them to turn away from their gods and turn to Him. “so that they know I am their Lord.” Those in Jericho went in and lived with the Israelites. And all received the blessings of the true Lord.
Since the beginning, all had the chance to receive all blessing equally no matter what people believed. He even offered salvation to the Samaritan woman who the Jews hated and thought they were lower than dirt. Jesus spoke the truth no matter what. Jesus was killed because he was blessing, healing giving his anointing power to all that accepted Him as Lord and Savior, well.. one of the reasons. Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Yes even Women.
Jesus said all of this because it was the truth. If people left because they didn’t like His words, oh well. God’s Church (the people, not a title ie.. lds) His Words will always stand, Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. It never saids that they will be a time out until Joe Smith…
Corrections? Are you talking about Peter? God corrected him quickly and Jesus corrected the others back then. It didn’t take over a hundred years. And it shouldn’t have been an issue with the lds church or a BIBLE BASED CHURCH if they would have followed the teaching of Christ.
JOD…Is doctrine vol. 13, p. 264. (BY is speaking) I say now,
when they [Young’s sermons] are copied and approved
by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in
this Bible.
So you being the son of satan is doctrine AND THEY NAMEd A SCHOOL after him. Look at what your leaders thought (and still think) of you before they were threatened to treat you like a man. I can go on but I ll stop here for now. Wake up man…
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I am awake. I hear you. My contention is what do you want me to do about it? God has told me that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is His authorized church and that through its ordinances and Official teachings I will find salvation.
Am I to deny what God has told me. I agree that the leaders of the church back then where racist by today's standards. The church has never taught that Blacks were anything but children of God. Individual leaders may have expressed their opinions about Blacks, but it has never been a teaching of the church.
I wonder what is it that you are looking for? I really want to know. Is it for me to agree with you about the church's history?
I do appreciate your comments and the challenging things that you say, but the reason I am a member of the church has nothing to do with its history or the things that the people have said about Black people.
I love Brigham Young and the things that he taught. Most of the things that I read in the JOD are good when taken in context: time period, culture, audience and venue.
The church may have been threatened, but it still had to wait for God to speak before it acted on anything. Yes, the Lord does allow prophets to make mistakes when leading His people--even in the church.
I suppose you are looking for Biblical precedent to support my opinion. I have some, but it is futile to mention. I am sure you know of all the same points I would make with Moses and Israel (Jacob) just for starters.
I don't do that though because The Bible is not the bases for my beliefs. I am not a Bible based person and I am not in a Bible based church. I am in a Jesus Christ- based church.
The Bible is one of the records that we use to keep us in remembrance of Christ and his teachings, not what we base our worship on. We do not worship the Bible. We worship Jesus Christ and God. His teachings can be found in many books, not just the Bible.
The Bible does not contain all of God's word or teachings. It could not! There is not book that contains it all. There are more books out here that contain His words that we do not have yet.
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