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Can a Loving God Send People to Hell?

Updated on November 6, 2019
david tee profile image

Dr. David Thiessen is an educator, writer, pastor, and speaker. He has authored several books on a variety of topics including Archaeology

What is your perspective

When it comes to the Bible, how people view its contents depends on their perspective. Some take the view that they know better than God and that their idea of morality is better than the one God has.

These people come to this conclusion because they cannot accept the rules that God has laid down nor the penalties that come with the violations of those rules. Then, there are those who get stuck at the word good.

As one person said, there are those non-Christians who live very good lives yet will end up in hell because they never believed. The term good in this case seems to blind those people who take this point of view who do not count that there are other sins committed by those good non-Christians which erase the good they do in their lives.

The wages of sin

The penalty for sin is not some mystery withheld from any of God’s creation. God made sure that every person knew where they stood so that there would be no argument over the sentence passed.

In Romans 3: 23, God lays out the fact that there is no sinless person outside of Christ. Every human sins in some way. Some lie, cheat, steal, while others commit fraud, rape, murder and so on. Disobedience to parents is also a sin.

Contrary to the innocent child ideology that permeates many homes throughout the world, children are included in that passage of scripture. There is no escape clause stating that all have sinned except children.

This is why God could destroy children at the flood. They were not perfect, innocent or sinless. In fact, they were included in the passage in Genesis 6 that states man thought of nothing but evil right before the flood.

Romans 6:23 gives us the penalty for committing sin. Paul wrote- “the wages of sin is death”. There is no confusion here, the words are plain, simple and clear

God offers a way out

When people are condemning God for his supposed harsh punishment, they seem to ignore one vital fact. God offers everyone a way out so that they can escape hell. Murderers, rapists, homosexuals, liars and more can get out of jail free card if they take that one step also mentioned in Romans 6: 23- “the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

You will notice that those who complain about the existence of hell and who will be sent there, never take that step. They ignore God’s offer preferring one of their own that is more to their liking.

What they are saying is, they do not want to go to hell but they want to avoid it their way. They refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior and get the real get out of hell free card.

Instead, they want God to bow to their wishes and do things their way although their way allows them to continue to sin while avoiding any real punishment. Unfortunately for them, God has already made the rules and those rules will not change.

To avoid hell, you need to follow God’s plan of salvation. There is no alternative path although many fake religions and eastern mystical thought tries to convince people there are.

Does God want people to go to hell

Does any creator of any item want to see their creations destroyed? They would be lying if they said they did. God does not want people to go to hell. God may be the saddest being when the final judgment comes.

Why? Because he has to sentence members of his creation to hell because they rejected him and his son. There is no joy that can be found in that action. God is a God of love yet love demands that violators of God’s laws must be punished.

Love does not set violators free to contaminate paradise. Love disciplines and punishes those that do wrong and refuse to repent of their sinful ways. God has also told us in the Bible that he does not want to send people to hell.

Ez. 18: 23, 32; & 33: 11,as well as 2 Pet. 3: 9 and 1 Tim, 2:4 express God’s desire that all men be saved. That is why he gave everyone his son as the get out of hell free card. Believe on him and you shall be saved.

Hell does exist

Jesus preached that it does and if he lied, then he would disqualify himself from being our Savior. Matthew has 7 verses talking about the subject, Mark 3 and Luke 1. Not to be left out, the books of James and 2 Peter mention hell as well

Thus we know hell is real and that Romans 6: 23 is for real. What hell looks like is described throughout Revelation 19 & 20 as a lake of fire. It is also referred to as the second death {Rev. 20:14} keeping in line with what Romans 6: 23 says.

But as mentioned earlier, those that condemn God for sending good non-Christians to hell are also the ones that do not accept Christ as their savior. They do not want hell but they do not want God or Jesus either.

Sadly for them, they will get the former if they do not seriously and honestly repent and become Christians.


© 2019 David Thiessen

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    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      12 months ago from Philippines

      since they do not read extra mormon works it is hard for them to get a full picture of their beliefs.

      I watched a movie the other day about Smith's imprisonment for treason in Missouri. It was a white washed movie with the men taking no responsibility for their actions.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      12 months ago from now on

      A job well done Dave, debunking Mormonism. The phrase “Mad as a hatter” comes to my mind.

      The origin of the phrase, it's believed, is that hatters really did go mad. The chemicals used in hat-making included mercurous nitrate, used in curing felt. Prolonged exposure to the mercury vapors caused mercury poisoning.

      Mormons are like hatters and the “religion” they practice poisons them until they actually go mad!

      To reason with them is to venture down the rabbit hole where up is down, a journey that is particularly strange, problematic, difficult, complex, or chaotic, one that becomes increasingly so as it develops or unfolds.

      Best not to venture down this rabbit hole!

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      12 months ago from Philippines

      I am not talebearing. It is a fact. You seem to embellish the extent of the mormon old west activities, providing no non-mormon source for those feats.

      I am not wrong either. Smith had problems which he never repented from and he gave permission to other men to marry more than one wife allowing them to commit adultery without feeling bad about it.

      Tolstoy is not proof that mormonism is correct.

      You seem to promote words and events that have nothing to do with proper physical evidence or proof.

      You also like to skate over the motivation inspiring mormon activities. It is you who needs to keep an open mind and read non mormon works that provide the evidence and proof that mormonism is built on a mountain of lies and smith was a liar and a con man.

      Not even mormon archaeologists find evidence to support the book of mormon and no on eis allowed to dig at the site where the great battle took place. mormons like to hide the truth from its people.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      12 months ago from Utah

      David-

      This holiday season softens my heart. I hope & pray we can have peace on earth and good will toward each other, in spite of our zeal to defend our individual point of view. But, as you know, peace can only exist if it begins with you & me. So the Christianity in me, reminds me to heed Paul's warning that such negativisms as wrath & strife do not lead to inheriting the kingdom of God (Gal.5:20-21). And, as you know, the fruit of the spirit includes peace, longsuffering, gentleness, & meekness (Gal.5:22).

      But thanks for trying to keep me on my toes.

      May I suggest that you try to avoid having "zeal without knowlege" such as by using all-encompassing, sweeping generalizations, such as "There is nothing good about Smith or Mormonism. It is a lie built on a mountain of lies."

      Oops! You seem to be defying the Biblical warnings against "talebearing" and "bearing false witness."

      Such dogmatism seems much too sophomoric when you take a moment to look at the facts of LDS history from unbiased, non-LDS historians. Apparently, you are not aware that many great men, such as what Dr. White of Columbia University reported Leo Tolstoy as stated that Joseph Smith founded a religion that would become one of the greatest forces the world has ever known. Apparently, you didn't know that Joseph Smith provided a solution to the problem of slavery, he called for social reform in advocating for women to have the right to vote, he stated many scientific truths that were far ahead of later discoveries, he made many accurate prophecies, fulfilled some ancient Jewish prophecies, etc. Mormonism had a major impact on the settlement of the West, making peace with the Native Americans while founding & settling over 500 communities within the provisional, territorial State of Deseret which included one third of California, most of Nevada, half of Arizona, half of Colorado, parts of Oregon, Idaho, New Mexico, and Wyoming. Mormonism also established many towns outside of the territory, such as in parts of Canada, Mexico, & Hawai'i.

      Please let me know if you would like to see documentation for any of the above, or below.

      Contrary to what you assumed, David did not really fully repent since God refused to allow him to build the temple. Didn't you know that late in life, on his deathbed, David called for the death of 2 men (1 Kings 2:5-9)? Joseph Smith was indeed punished by God in several different ways. David lost a child, Joseph Smith lost several. Joseph Smith did not lie about the Book of Mormon, the animals mentioned have been proven to have existed as well as the grains and customs and art.

      I hope and pray that you can keep an open mind in all of this.

      Sincerely,

      Mark

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      You obviously do not know what judging is and try to give Smith a pass on his illegal activities based on sinful acts of biblical figures. What you leave out is that God punished David for his sins and David truly repented

      Smith did not and received no punishment from God. Your justifications for Smith fail as Smith promoted a religious belief that never existed in history of mankind. Smith lied about reformed Egyptian, he lied about the contents of the book of mormon, he lied about the the biog ancient battle and the animals in South and North America.

      You do not build a religion based on lies the call the founder good. Archaeology has shown that he has lied, especially about that gigantic battle between 2 nations.

      There is nothing good about Smith or Mormonism. It is a lie built on a mountain of lies.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      Be careful about who you judge when you are ignoring biblical precedence. For example, you should know that Paul said he was a Jew to the Jews, a Roman to the Romans, a gentile to the gentiles and defended his right to lie (Romans 3:7).

      Defend David whom Peter described as a prophet on the day of Pentecost: David was a general and a king, but became a prophet. On the Day of Pentecost, with the fire of the Holy Ghost bearing witness (Acts 2:3-4), Peter referred to David as a patriarch and as a “prophet” (Acts 2:29-30). God appeared to David (2 Chron.3:1) and spoke to him and David wrote Biblical scripture, and his heart was perfect with the Lord (1 Kings 11:4), and he kept the Lord’s commandments, and he followed the Lord with all his heart, and did only that which was right in the eyes of the Lord (1 Kings 14:8). However, he committed many blunders unbecoming of a prophet. In fact, without losing his status as a prophet, David did the following: He “shamelessly uncovered himself “in front of his handmaids (2 Sam.6:20). He used “blackmail” in threatening to kill Nabal’s household if they did not give up their wealth (1 Sam.25:7-8). He was cruel to animals in mutilating hundreds of horses by houghing them (cutting their hamstrings) (2 Sam.8:4). He mutilated 200 of his enemies by cutting off their penises to use them to bribe King Saul to give his daughter to David (1 Sam.18:27). He had a harem of hundreds of wives and concubines (2 Sam.5:13). He imprisoned 10 of his concubines for life (2 Sam.20:3). He took another man’s (Phaltiel’s) wife to be his own (2 Sam.3:13-15) leaving the former husband weeping (verse 16). He performed human sacrifice to appease the Lord (2 Sam.21:1-14). He peeked and watched a woman bathing (2 Sam.11:2).He committed adultery with Bathsheba (2 Sam11:4).He had Uriah killed to cover the adultery (2 Sam.11:15). He killed one who, in David’s defense, had taken the life of an enemy who had been trying to assassinate David (2 Sam.4:8-10). He tortured the citizens of the cities he conquered with axes and saws and made them pass through kilns (2 Sam.12:31; 1 Chron.20:3). He massacred whole nations, including women, and took their possessions (1 Sam.27:8-9). He lined up a group disarmed prisoners, made them lie down on the ground, and killed half of them (2 Sam.8:2). He died demanding the blood of 2 men (1 Kings 2:5-9).

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      Smith was unrepentant and most of the 'crimes' you list are not crimes human or spiritual. I think you protest too much trying to keep smith elevated to a holy level when he was nothing but a con man.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      David-

      Only Jesus was perfect. Joseph Smith showed humility in allowing the publications of revelations in which God reprimanded him for his errors (See, for example, D&C 3:6-15). Anyone who criticizes him or other LDS leaders for assumed imperfections are ultimately criticizing their own Bible and expressing serious doubts about its prophets as here are some examples:

      Aaron was called of God to assist Moses (Ex.4:14,27-30), saw God (Ex.24:9-11), but fashioned a golden calf as an idol (Ex.32:1-6,21,25,35), made the Israelites naked for their enemies (Ex.32:25), murmured against Moses (Num.12:1-2), and failed to honor God at Meribah (Num.20:8-13).

      Adam communed with God (Gen.1:28; 2:16-17), yet he disobeyed God’s command (in Gen.3:6) that they should not eat of the tree of knowledge (Gen.2:17), which brought sin, evil, suffering, and death into the world.

      The Bible says Noah was just and perfect and that he walked with God (Gen.6:9). Yet it says he became drunk and naked (Gen.9:21) and cursed his grandson, Canaan (Gen.9:25-27).

      It is obvious that Daniel, a great inspired prophet, was guilty of sinning because he asked the Lord to forgive him (Dan.9:3-20).

      You are probably aware of the faults of David.

      Elijah was a man of God (1 Kings 17:24), yet he mocked the priests of Baal (1 Kings 18:27) instead of using meekness and gentleness in trying to bring them to the Lord. And instead of trying to persuade them to follow the Lord, as the Lord told Ezekiel that He prefers to do (Ez.33:11, 14-15), Elijah killed 450 priests of Baal (1 Kings 18:19, 40).

      Even though an angel appeared to Samson’s parents and told them that their son was foreordained to deliver the Israelites from the Philistines (Judges 13:3-5), Samson did not fulfill his calling, but fell into sin. Samson, chose one of the daughters of the “uncircumcised” Philistines as his wife (Judges 14:2-3), instead of choosing a wife from his own people (verse 3), as was the custom and tradition of his people. Nevertheless, the spirit of the Lord was upon him (14:19). When he was thirsty, he prayed to the Lord to give him water, and the Lord miraculously provided it for him (15:18-20). The next thing he did was to go in unto a harlot (16:1). “Afterward,” he made love with Delilah (16:4). His last words were a prayer to the Lord for strength to avenge the Philistines for his 2 eyes (16:28).

      In the New Testament, the apostle Peter taught that Lot was “just,” “righteous,” and “godly”(2 Peter 2:7-9). Lot also communed with angels (Gen.19:1-17) who protected him from the destruction of Sodom. However, when the men of Sodom wanted to “know” the men (angels) who were with Lot, and to do so “wickedly,” Lot offered them his daughters (Gen.19:8), telling the Sodomites that since his daughters had not ”known” men, the Sodomites could do whatever they wished with his daughters. On another occasion, Lot allowed his daughter to get him drunk (Gen.19:32-33).

      John was one of Christ’s 12 apostles (Matt.10:2-4). But even though Jesus had told him that He would rise from the dead (Matt.16:21), John was hard-hearted and did not believe that Jesus did so. And when he heard about the resurrection, he thought it was an idle tale (Mark 16:9-14; Luke 24:10-11). John revealed his attitude of racism, hate, and discrimination when he asked Jesus for permission to call fire down from heaven to consume the Samaritans (Luke 9:52-55). He revealed his conceit and ambition by asking Jesus for the right to sit at His side when He would be in His glory (Mark 10:36-40). John falsely prophesied that there would be some living there at that time that would not taste of death before they would see the Son of man coming in his power and glory (1 John 2:18). He was not inspired enough to know that the being who appeared to him was not the Lord and was about to worship a fellow prophet (Rev.22:7-6).

      Mary Magdalene was a follower of Jesus, but even though she had heard him prophesy of his resurrection, she was surprised that his body was missing from the sepulcher (John 20:1-2). Also, she was not spiritual enough to discern that the resurrected Christ was standing before her (verse 14-15).

      Paul was an apostle and a writer of many books of the Bible, yet he gave contradictory accounts of his vision. In one version of his vision his companions heard a voice but saw no one (Acts 9:7). In another account, his companions did not hear the voice, but they saw the light (Acts 22:9). In one account, his companions remained standing (Acts 9:7), in another account, they fell to the earth (Acts 26:14). He admitted he did not understand some revelations (1 Cor.13:9,12). He taught that God made some people to be better than others (Rom.9:21) and that God loved some of his children and hated others (Rom.9:13). He believed women were not equal to men. He said that the head of the woman is the man (1 Cor.11:3), and that wives should submit themselves to their husbands (Eph.5:22,24), that women, not men, should have their heads covered during prayer (1 Cor.11: 4-10,13), and that women should not teach, but that they should be in silence and subjection (1 Tim.2:11-12). He showed favoritism toward the Jews by saying that they should be first, before the Greeks (Rom.1:16), and he discriminated against those of certain ethnic origins by claiming the Holy Ghost forbade him to preach the word in Asia (Acts 16:6). He had so much contention with Barnabas that they separated (Acts 15:39). He admitted he was sometimes boastful (1 Cor.15:10; 2 Cor.10:8; 11:5,16-17), crafty (2 Cor.12:16), and deceptive (Rom.3:7; 2 Thess.2:11-12). He either could not or would not heal Trophimus (2 Tim.4:20). He saw no reason to keep the law (Gal.2:16), and kept it only when it was convenient (Acts 21:18-20, 23-24, 26). He believed God had sent strong delusion so that the wicked would believe a lie and be damned (2 Thess.2:11-12) and that God gave up some to uncleanness (Rom.1:24,26). He believed in delivering serious sinners over to Satan (1 Tim.1:20) and that they should be destroyed in the flesh (1 Cor.5:5). During a vision, he did not know whether he was in the body or out of the body (2 Cor.12:1-7). Paul falsely prophesied that there would be some living there at that time that would not taste of death before they would see the Son of man coming in his power and glory (Rom.13:11-12; 1 Cor.10:11; Philippians 1:6; 4:5; 1 Thess.4:15-17; Heb.9:26).

      Peter was one of Christ’s 12 apostles (Matt.10:2-4). But even though Jesus had told him that He would rise from the dead (Matt.16:21), Peter was hard-hearted and did not believe that Jesus did so. And when he heard about the resurrection, he thought it was an idle tale (Mark 16:9-14; Luke 24:10-11). Peter was impudent in rebuking Jesus (Matt.16:22), was hesitant to obey when Jesus wanted to wash his feet (John 13:8-9), was fearful and cowardly in denying Christ 3 times (Matt.26:69-74),and he tried to kill a man (John 18:10-11). Jesus called him “Satan” (Matt.16:23). He thought the gentiles should be circumcised (Gal.2:11-14). He admitted knowing only in part (Acts 10:3,17). In one of his epistles, Peter criticized Paul by saying that some of his writings are hard to be understood by the unlearned and the unstable, and can lead to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-17). As chief apostle, he led them in casting lots to determine who would replace Judas Iscariot (Acts 1:26). Peter falsely prophesied that there would be some living there at that time that would not taste of death before they would see the Son of man coming in his power and glory Peter (2 Pet.3:12-13).

      Need other examples?

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      To David-

      Thangs for sharing. I read it.

      Merry Christmas!

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      That is up to you. I have been waiting for T to come back

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      Do you want a response?

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      #1. No it is not. Peter made that perfectly clear- 2 Peters 1:10

      #2. no it is a fact there is nothing of Good in mormonism

      #3. No it is a fact. The God of the Bible is not the god you describe in mormonism

      #4. No, I have the truth which exposes the lies of Mormonism. The fact that there is no ancient or 19th century corroboration of smith's views proves my point

      You use a bad comparison to try and make your point. All evidence , both ancient and modern, point to the fact that I am a man. Mormonism de=oe snot enjoy the same evidence or confirmation

      It does enjoy evidence that it is a cult and a false religion though. That verse doesn't support your position or the false doctrines of mormonism.

      That is a bad idea to base one's religious beliefs on as even atheists feel some good inside of them.

      Please do as I want no part of mormonism and I do not want to be baptized by proxy into your membership rolls. If I find out it has been done or anything similar, I will sue

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      David-

      Sorry if i have offended you. Thank you for your responses. I've had powerful impressions since Sunday.

      1. Keep in mind that scripture is open to interpretation.

      2. That's quite a generalization to say that all are part of a religion are deceived.

      3. That's your opinion.

      4. You've been blinded about other beliefs and opinions.

      How would you feel if i said you weren't a man? You know you are and you know that the accusation wasn't true.

      Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

      There's a story about 2 wolves, one representing the good and the other, evil. Feed the good within you.

      You may disown me but I don't disown you. Keep the faith, brother.

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      #1. Paul did not criticize the message Peter was preaching nor vice versa.

      #2. No, it wasn't Joseph Smith's life that drew people to him, he was an unrepented sinner, who lived a sinful criminal life. Just because people may have been drawn to his message doesn't make him right. All mormons have been deceived.

      #3. But God did not author mormonism.

      #4. And you are blind to the gospel and the truth

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      Debate is entertaining. I know you enjoy it. Personally, it helps me to not be lukewarm (Revelation 3:16). However, this is a vicious cycle.

      1.Peter criticized Paul in 2 Peter 3:15-17. Paul criticized Peter in Galatians 2:11-14.

      2.And I could say the same for Joseph Smith. His life and character had drawn people to him. Sadly, you have not mentioned any positive sources that you have consulted about him. That diminishes your credibility if you criticize but do not know the other side. You do not deny that you have not ready any of the Book of Mormon.

      3. Good cannot come from evil. God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

      4. Yes, there are wolves in sheep’s clothing (Matthew 7:15), so we shall know them by their fruits (Matt. 7:16). I know we had this discussion previously, but you have not explained what fruits are. Verse 21…he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in Heaven.

      I could say more, but here is the bottom line…Satan would have us fight and argue about Jesus. 2 Timothy 2 gives some do’s and don’ts.

      A true Christian does more than talk and preach about it. That is why Jesus talked so much about hypocrisy with the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes. They were blind to the good that He was trying to share with him. Find the principles taught by the scriptures and live by them. Perhaps you will have more who follow you by taking a positive approach versus attacking beliefs and actions in others that you do not like.

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      #1. Peter and Paul do see eye to eye and are not sending out contradictory messages.

      #2. NO, they saw the actual change in Paul's life and character, there was no taking his word for anything. there was evidence

      #3. SO many questions. God applies his justice and mercy as his wisdom directs

      #3. deception. evil wants to trap as many unwary people as it can

      #4. no. Mormons are not Christiian and follow the wrong person and doctrines. There is a reason why the NT speaks so frequently about false teachers, etc.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      I agree with and love your second sentence. I get the impression from many that his words do the opposite for many Christian denominations. The gospels are much more simple. As you know, Peter and Paul did not always see eye to eye.

      Paul's experience on the road to Damascus...the followers of Christ that he shared this with had to take his word for it. That is something to consider...

      If I may, to circle back to the original core of your article...I think you are saying that God is actually merciful, but what about justice? Are you only saying he is merciful to believers and just with nonbelievers? Are not all equal in the sight of God? Does a Christian not need to repent once they are saved? That would sound good to many, I'm sure. But I do not think God is just if rapists and murders get a "Get out of Hell free" card in an instant. Being a believer is a process, not an event. I'm sure you disagree, but I do not believe that all sins are equal. Where is the motivation to be good if nothing else needs to be done? What would the purpose of life be once you are saved? To share the gospel? Most do not. Why should a Christian be considered saved if he does not behave better than anyone else? You may say it is filthy rags to do good. I do not try to live morally right to build myself up but because I want to love others and to love the Lord.

      On that note, if a church was organized by an evil person, why would his followers try to be good? 1 Timothy 4:12...be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

      Put out of your mind our disagreements but I hope that you can consider these things sincerely. Help me to understand where you are coming from.

      Sincerely,

      Mark

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      Paul was also given Jesus' words and those words came from God the father. What Paul wrote does not replace, trump or alter what the disciples wrote or Jesus spoke. They are all the same gospel which Smith changed to fit his ulterior and nefarious motives.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      Paul I understand. How so with Jesus and the apostles?

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      No the Bible has already done that and since you preach a different gospel than the one Jesus, the apostles and Paul brought, you and mormonism is in the false religion category

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      Whatever. To each his own.

      1. Interesting that you plead innocence...

      No comment on your opinions other than...

      It sounds to me like you are saying Dr David Thiessen gets to choose who is saved and who is going to Hell...

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      I thought your previous comment was your last...hmmm...

      #1. I haven't mocked or disrespected once. I have asked questions that you do not give real answers to. Just like you I can write what I believe. That is not bigoted at all. There is a thing called true and false religions and yours is in the false category

      #2. no it is not reformed English what a illogical conclusion to make. It would be called a loan word but that would not reform the language. There is no such thing as reformed Egyptian. Smith lied

      #3. faith in the wrong religion is not really faith but being deceived

      #4. What I read is my own business. you keep falsely accusing me without any evidence. I have dealt with mormons for many years

      #5. avoidance is not giving you any credibility. the fact that you will ignore that there is no archaeological nor historical evidence supporting smith or mormonism shows you are unwilling to take a full honest look at what you believe

      Faith also requires physical support to keep it strong

      You are not worshipping God. you are worshipping a god that smith made up and created out of his own con man mind. No Jesus is not your savior or you would have left the mormon church along time ago.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      1. Nah, Doc. If I were following a script, I would be much more loving, meek, reverent and have more longsuffering. Others would probably ignore you because they would think they are casting their pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6). You choose to mock and disrespect what many hold sacred. You don't want to understand anyone else. You only want to push your agenda. Isn't that bigoted?

      2. Good for you. Right, po is not an English word. My point is that it could be a type of "Reformed English".

      3. Hebrews 11:1-Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

      I am willing to stake eternity on what I believe.

      4. You do the same, sir. Real analysis/history in your mind (correct me if I'm wrong) would entail reading anti-mormon literature and nothing from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You have not denied that you have not read anything positive.

      5. What is evil about my Church/Religion? DNA evidence does not support any children. Refer to #3 for archeology.

      ***

      Anyway, maybe as a Christian you can forgive me for not being as kind as I could be and that I believe that there is more to the gospel instead of just getting saved. How you and I believe is our individual choice.

      We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

      Articles of Faith 11: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

      Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior.

      Amen.

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      #1. No you answer questions according to the way mormon leaders tell you to answer them. I have done my homework

      #2. I have advanced degrees in history and archaeology and no scholar has ever heard of reformed egyptian, ever. You are mis applying the word reformed. 'po' is not an English word no matter who uses it.

      #3. so in other words, you do not know it is real and you think your feeling is not from evil. that is not a lot of evidence to stake eternity on.

      #4. you seem to want to speak for me and decide what I have or have not done, your mistake. because if you opened yourself p to real analysis of the history behind mormonism, and were honest with yourself, we wouldn't be talking, you would have left mormonism long ago.

      #5. your beliefs do come from evil. smith was a liar, a con man, a sexual predator and he never showed any true repentance for his sins. archaeology does not support him or your faith, even your own archaeologists say that

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      “The attempt to silence a man is the greatest honor you can bestow on him. It means that you recognize his superiority to yourself.” -John Sobran, Universal Press Syndicate.

      1. It must be frustrating that I think more abstractly versus your structured thoughts. You may perceive that I am avoiding questions. I just do not answer questions the way that you would expect and I do not make sense to you. I will be the first to admit that I am not logical, Doctor. God does guide and inspire me. Who are you to judge me? What does the fruit of the Spirit have to do with then?

      2. I hope it has clarified Christianity and helped you find things that have been lost over 2,000 years. No, I have not studied Reformed Egyptian. How do you know that it did not exist? Any language/writing can be reformed because cultures adapt. Such as English in the Philippines…the use of the word ‘po” when Filipinos speak English.

      3. I know that the vision is real because when I have used his words to describe his experience it brings a powerful, peaceful spirit. And the phone would ring, so that tells me that Satan does not want people to know that it is true. To point back to #1, we think differently and you say it does not have substance, but that is your opinion.

      4. You think “Mormonism” is a fake because you are listening to “Anti-Mormons”. What books have you read about Joseph Smith? I am not aware of objective books about him. They are either for or against him. How do you know that I have not “opened myself up or examined?” I have questioned, but I have been able to find answers on my own through study of scripture and prayer. You have not read the Book of Mormon, so you do not know the good that is in it. You are listening to “Anti-Mormons” and other preachers who feel threatened that they will lose their flock. Am I missing something? Is there any other reason?

      Also, historically, my ancestors lived and died for their faith. That is historical to me. I have learned to be a better Christian through this than anything else. If all I need to do is believe, that shows the mercy of God, but where is justice? I believe in living my religion. Not just talking about it and just saying I’m saved.

      ***

      Feel free to answer my last post now.

      You are as stubborn about what you believe as I am about mine. I am not going to change you and you are not going to change me. You have ignorantly attacked my religion and you expect me to sit idly by? You are too close-minded to study anything positively or objectively. You have only studied negative books that are against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Your beliefs are based on facts and mine are based on faith and the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.

      Moroni 10:6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

      That is from the Book of Mormon. You act as if my beliefs come from the Satanic Bible or something. Would the Satanic Bible say that?

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      Don't try to derail the discussion or divert it in any way. Answer the questions honestly

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      I'll address those things shortly. But I'm curious... what are your intentions with your responses? What do you hope to gain?

      You think I'm too close-minded (or perhaps too open) and I think you are stubborn by going by what you've heard instead of taking a positive approach. I just didn't like you attacking my religion. You don't believe in tolerance?

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      #1, you are not answering the question I asked. Just because you do not have confusion about your false belief doe snot mean God is talking to you. The fruits of the spirit have nothing to do with the identity of the speaker.

      #2. I handle them all the time and can translate if I want to. I studied ancient Greek. Did you study reformed egyptian?

      #3. again you do not answer my question. Joseph Smith had a lot to gain, wealth, power, control over others and so on. Plus, how do you know his vision at the age of 14 was real? You only have his word on it

      Your answer is non sensical and contains nothing of substance to prove your point. With no corroboration how do you know he was correct?

      #4. We find fakes all the time. It is not hard to do that is why we can dismiss mormonism. It is a fake religion built on lies. Lies which you refuse to open yourself up to check and examine.

      With no historical support, you have nothing to stand on.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      What did Joseph Smith have to gain? The first vision was when Joseph Smith was 14 and the church was organized when he was 25. People gave him a hard time for the rest of his life. I know because what he revealed and taught clarified Christianity and through him the true church was restored. Many things taught in the Bible are not discussed by another other denomination. It is open to interpretation otherwise.

      I know from the fruits of his work as the prophet. You are focusing on actual, physical experiences instead of spiritual or religious experiences. It takes faith in my experience and also with those who consider the Bible as we were not present when those things took place.

      Do you want examples of early Christianity to consider how it changed? Perhaps you have heard of Justin Martyr from 100 AD. How do you know that what most believe now is the same as Biblical times?

      In regards to the original books, you are able to handle and translate them to make sure that nothing was lost in translation.

      I am glad to hear you ask about who I think is speaking to me. That is my kind of question!

      Just a tip of the iceberg...Consider the fruits of the Spirit (Galations 5:22-23). I know because of peace and happiness. That is something that the devil cannot give to me. Satan is the author of confusion and many are confused about what is true. They listen to things that they hear online and do not find out for themselves. I know because the gospel makes sense to me. I know because I was able to bless my child through the Priesthood last night by anointing with oil and laying his hands on his head. (Hebrews 4:5)

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      I know he lied. Why do you believe he didn't

      As I said, there is no ancient religion that matches up with what Joseph Smith tried to sell.

      Oh but we do have the original books of the Bible.

      How do you know it is God speaking to you and not the devil

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      In regards to the spirit...1 Corinthians 2:9-14: "But God hath revealed them unto us by His spirit: for the spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." The things of God are known by the Spirit of God.

      "Howebeit when he, the spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth." John 16:13-14, Acts 19:6.

      "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-19.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      On the contrary, you CAN trust your heart. T was saying that you can't trust your heart in his shpeal/rant.

      David-

      So you believe that your religion is the same church that Jesus Christ had organized when he was on the earth? Untainted by man? The Catholic church was the only Church to have that claim for centuries. What you believe stems from those who turned away from the Catholic church during what many call the Reformation when Protestant churches came to be.

      I don't believe that Joseph Smith lied. Why do you think Reformed Egyptian is a lie?

      You do not have the original scrolls of the Bible and you are trusting those who have translated it.

      I don't need physical evidence. I know from impressions, and the whisperings of the Holy Ghost. I go by my experience and study of scripture (Bible included). If God speaks to your heart and you believe it, what then? You don't know me. You don't know what I've experienced.

      You two came to believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible. Couldn't athiests or non-Christians call you brainwashed?

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      @Richardson-- How can you believe Smith when there is no former ancient religion anywhere in the world that needed to be restored?

      How can you believe Smith when he lied about Reformed Egyptian?

      How can you believe Smith when you cannot take the golden plates in your hand, learn their language and translate it for yourself?

      How can you believe Smith and Mormonism when there is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence supporting him or the book of mormon? Or when mormon leaders won't let anyone explore the mountain for evidence when that supposed great battle took place?

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      I also noticed he speaks with fluff and avoids any direct statement that can be questioned. He exposes himself as a blind faith person by saying we can't trust our hearts.

      Maybe a direct question or two will shake him up

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      13 months ago from now on

      Notice David First he tried to disparage the messenger, me, yet didn’t disagree with any specific Mormon belief I pointed out was contrary to the Bible saying from “his perspective” which we already determined “his perspective” was In error at best, total deceit at worse and finally he never even attempted to answer my question, “What is the Gospel?” The Gospel is not all the teachings of Christ, that is a dodge. He taught many things that are not expression of the gospel but if he defined the gospel as what it is it would destroy his beliefs. He’s only had over 2 weeks to figure that one out, so he truly is brainwashed.

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      Paul's words are Christ's words.

      Your mormon religion also has no archaeological evidence to support it.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      13 months ago from Utah

      D/T-

      What's up, guys! It looks like you missed me and you appear to be interested in my two cents/perspective. I thought you two had your mind made up and didn't want to hear from me. Obviously people fear what they don't understand, so that is why your comments are the way they are. D-If brainwashed means thinking and believing differently than you do, I guess I am guilty.

      T, I can't disagree with a lot of your scripted/canned response (although there is an undercurrent of something negative). It appears that when you copied and pasted it, it is a little repetitive. So you may want to keep that in mind next time you use it. Like the serpent in the garden (in Genesis) and Satan when tempting Jesus (Luke 4), you are twisting truth and putting it in a bad light.

      I don't want to argue with you. T, you mentioned in one of your articles that some scientists become Christian. Why is that so rare? Because scientists are logical, need facts and proof. Many scientists are not religious because of it. I cannot deny my experiences and inspiration that would go against the reasoning of you two. It's sad if you cannot trust your heart or feelings. Some people are logical, some people are more emotional. Everyone is not the same. Why would I want to go to any other church if I believe they are missing things?

      To us, there is one God that we worship. God and Jesus Christ are united in every way except physically.

      From my perspective, we do not contradict the Bible. We look at the whole picture, being the Old Testament, New Testmament and the Book of Mormon.

      I disagree about people not being good. There is good in everyone. Just many choose to ignore the good.

      The Gospel is the teachings and principles of Jesus Christ. You focus too much on Paul. What about the teachings of Jesus Christ? If you truly knew what we believe, you would know that the teachings are harmonious when you look at the big picture.

      I just don't enjoy arguing with you two. I can't change you and you won't change me. Only God can change us if we are willing to change. What would I gain from removing the things that have clarified Christianity for me? Christians for the most part are divided and not united. I doubt you could suggest a church that would be acceptable to you.

      Have a Merry Christmas!

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      13 months ago from Philippines

      There was a video out some years ago where Mormon leaders were teaching younger Mormons how to change the question asked in order to answer it without challenging their faith.

      Mormons are not honest about what they believe and will state they follow the Bible even though the Book of Mormon is their true scripture.

      No archaeologist has found evidence for one Joseph Smith claim including reformed Egyptian. That is the laughable claim as there is no such thing as that language

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      13 months ago from now on

      Evidently David that is the case here with our cultist Mark.

      You just have to ask the right question like “what is the gospel?” to see them disappear.

      The gospel is the definition of Christianity and they can’t even define it.

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      Mormons do not like anything that makes them question their religion. They are very brainwashed and they will do whatever it take to avoid answering challenging questions.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      Well almost a week has gone by but no reply to my comment from Mark?

      It would be a good thing if it is because he is studying the One and Only revelation from God, the Bible, instead of the counterfeit Book of Mormon.

      It would be a sad thing if it is because he has no desire to seek the truth.

      If it is because he’s just too busy right now to spend the time investigating if what I said is actually true, well then I guess he will eventually comment when he has the time and that’s understandable and this is just a reminder.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      Mark, I’m sorry but most of what you said is meaningless (I think you just like to hear yourself speak) and has nothing to do with the fact that “Mormons say they are Christians, but because they reject foundational truths from God’s Word, they are not.“

      When a Mormon says he believes in the Trinity, he does not mean the Scriptural historical orthodox Trinity of one God who exists in three persons. To a Mormon, the Trinity is a position held by three separate gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

      Remember, the correct doctrine of the Trinity is that there is only one God who has existed for eternity. This one God exists in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

      They are not three separate gods but only one God.

      When a Mormon says he believes in God, he does not mean in the one true God, the creator of all things, the One who has always existed from all time. He means he believes in a god who used to be a man on another planet, who followed the laws and ordinances of that god on that planet and became exalted to godhood.

      And, to top it all off, he has a wife who is a goddess.

      When speaking to a Mormon, we might be using the same words; but we won't be speaking the same language. So, it is a very good idea to study Terminology Differences where the definitions of Mormon terms (and Jehovah's Witnesses) are explained and contrasted with true definitions.

      When a Mormon says he believes in the Trinity, he does not mean the historical orthodox Trinity of one God who exists in three persons. To a Mormon, the Trinity is a position held by three separate gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

      Remember, the correct doctrine of the Trinity is that there is only one God who has existed for eternity. This one God exists in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are not three separate gods but one.

      Mormons will bear their testimony to you and tell you that they know the Mormon church is true, and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.

      If I ask you, David where does your testimony come from you’ll say

      "In my heart." Right?

      Did you know that the Bible says not to trust your heart because it is deceitful?

      "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

      How do you get your testimony?

      By the Holy Spirit?

      "Who bears witness of the truth?"

      The Holy Spirit does. Right?

      But the Holy Spirit Bears witness of Jesus (John 15:26) and that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). Right?

      Will a false Jesus send the true Spirit of God?

      The answer, of course, is no.

      The point is that only the Jesus of the Bible will send the Holy Spirit. If you don't have the right Jesus, you can't have the true Holy Spirit; and your testimony is invalid.

      Mormons believe that if you read the Book of Mormon and then pray and ask God whether or not it is true, you will receive a testimony from the Holy Spirit verifying its truth. If it is true, then Joseph Smith is true and so is Mormonism. Many Mormons claim to have this testimony.

      First of all, God never says to pray about truth. He says to search the Scriptures to find truth (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:16).

      So, what the Mormon is doing is unbiblical.

      Second, it doesn't matter what you feel. If what you feel contradicts the Bible, then what you feel is wrong.

      Did you ever have to pray about the Bible to see if it is true. Of course you haven't, the Bible doesn’t tell you to do that. So why are you supposed to pray about the B.O.M.?

      You probably say the B.O.M. says to pray about it but the Bible says to study God's word for truth--not pray about it.

      A common verse that Mormons use to support their belief that you can pray about the B. O. M. is found in James 1:5: "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."

      They say that because since they believe they're sincere, God will answer them.

      First of all, the problem with sincerity is that it becomes works' righteousness because the person is saying "Because of my sincerity, God will listen to me." In other words, because of what's in the person, God will look favorably upon him. God does not look into a person and find something good because there is no good in anyone (Rom. 3:10-12; Eph. 2:3).

      Second, this verse is about wisdom--not about praying to see if the Book of Mormon is true.

      In James 1:1 it says, "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings." So, the book of James was written to those who were believers and already had the truth. That is why James calls them "brothers" in verse 2.

      Third, wisdom is the proper use of knowledge--not the acquisition of knowledge. You acquire true spiritual knowledge from the Bible--not your heart. You don't pray about the B.O.M.; you pray about the truth you've learned from the Bible and ask God to teach you more and how to apply properly what He's already shown you.

      David, read all that and let it sink in then answer this: What is the Gospel?

      Answer that please and I will then show you further just how wrong Mormons are!

      I have only begun to show you the truth.

      I pray you aren’t so brainwashed you can receive it.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      14 months ago from Utah

      T/David-

      I will respond to your messages as one. Please forgive me for not being more civil. David-You invited me to read the article and I commented. So I wasn't seeking this out or trying to troll.

      In terms of substance...you are logical and may not understand why I believe what I do. But I question if you would want to understand. If you are asking me questions without wanting answers, then let me know. I think what you mean is you want me to defend what a believe with the Bible, so that is what I intend to do.

      I am sincerely glad that you two are finding comradery in your joint efforts. I'm flattered that you would call what I say to be a sermon. David, as I have mentioned before, I appreciate your brevity.

      In regard to scripture being in hotels, the Book of Mormon can be found in Mariott hotels. Matthew 18:16-In the mouth of two or three witnesses...the Book of Mormon is a second witness. Your criticism just tells me that you think that if it were good, it would be in more hotels. I think the reason for no Quran is that there just aren't as many Muslims in the USA as there are in the Middle East.

      T-The article-Christianity is to be a way of life, which is based more upon principles and not letter of the law rules. I wouldn't say it is a bad article and it has good points. But I know what I know and I know that it is good. The Pharisees held to tradition and could not see the good in Jesus's teachings. It IS all about love. But keep in mind...Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Also consider Romans 6:15 in terms of sin and grace: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. For a sincere Christian, I do not think they want to sin all they want, but there is no justice or accountability. I think you two realize that God is merciful and that is clear with Grace. But mercy cannot rob justice. Is it just for God to allow murders and child molesters into heaven who have gotten saved? I am sincerely interested in your take on that.

      There is much to be said for fruits: Matthew 7:16-23. Matthew 12:35, Luke 6:43, John 3:20, John 7:17, John 12:35-36. Acts 5:38-39. 1 Cor. 1:27. If you think what I believe is wrong, time will tell. I choose to follow Christ out of love, not fear.

      Consider the parable of the sower in Matthew 13-If our teachings are true, Satan will try various ways to stop the word of God from taking root. Does my faith not have many critics who feel threatened in one way or another? Were it not so, why would they have so much hatred toward an organization that stands for that which is good such as traditional families?

      What about Ephesians 4:5, 11-13? One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, as well as Leaders of the Faith.

      In conclusion...Mark 9:40- For he that is not against us is on our part- I am not against mainstream Christians. I was just hoping to help you understand where I am coming from.

      If you don't like this post, let me know. You may convince more to follow you to Christ if you do so with love. Did Jesus not love or respect the Good Samaritan who would have been hated by so many?

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      I know but what amazes me is how they embrace their beliefs despite the mountain of evidence against everything they believe - this is brainwashing plain and simple and IMO evidence of demonic influence that blinds them to the truth. And what is the truth? The truth is, and I know you know this but for anyone who thinks Christianity is just another religion, the truth is that Christianity is not a religion and no religion is Christianity but they are all works of Satan and the flesh. I came across this long ago and it explains to a T why Christianity is not a religion.

      https://philippians1v21.wordpress.com/why-believe-...

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      Oh I will tell anyone to stop posting under my articles if they cannot back up what they are saying. Mormons know they have no evidence to back up their claims so they prove the scriptures- willingly be deceived true.

      I was on the walter martin forums for awhile and talked with mormons there. they do not like deep serious discussion because their supposed faith is only superficial

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      Yeah, I know what that is like, I lived in NY for twenty years. :-)

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      Amazing. But I have not lived in North America for 20 years so I my be behind a bit on what hotels do.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      Joking about the Quran, yes, the book of “M”no.

      Every room had one and this wasn’t Utah.

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      I know you are joking or being sarcastic. I have always found a Gideon Bible

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      Well I recently took a trip and had to stay in a Hotel. Guess what was in the drawer by the bed.

      Of course, a Bible.

      Guess what was in the drawer with it!

      The book of morons, I mean Mormon.

      I looked all over the room but I couldn’t find a Quran! How intolerant !!!

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      I agree. What was bothering me was he refused to back up his points. he would simply disagree and then go into another sermon. I know for a fact that the Book of Mormon disagrees with the Bible and that Smith said they are to take the BoM over the Bible.

      Smith also said it was the most perfectly written book yet it was rife with errors. No archaeologist has found any evidence for one thing mentioned in the BOM

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      David, you and I know that’s what deceivers do when faced with truth they can not refute - they try to disparage the messenger. His problem is that the messenger is delivering the Word of God which he ignores demonstrating that he is not a truth seeker but has been brainwashed by a cult. His reaction is never scripture says but “we believe“ or “I believe.” Scripture presents truth, what he believes or what Mormons believe is irrelevant.

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      @Richardson--how is T trolling when he has credibility and provides substance to his posts? You seem to be the one trolling and avoid any real discussion.

      My patience is wearing out with you

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      If you want to continue posting here, you better start providing real substance.

      Those contradictions are real whether you agree with them or not.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      14 months ago from Utah

      David-

      I disagree with you.

      Do you want me to go and refute every one of those from those links? Would that do any good for you? You are interpreting that they contradict.

      Here are a few: To us there is one God only that we worship. Yes, God is a spirit, but He also has a body. Just as you are a spirit with a body.

      Deuteronomy talked about not adding or taking away. What about the scripture from Joshua forward? The book of Revelation was written before other books.

      I think YOUR statements are empty. You are like a Pharisee who is stuck on tradition.

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      14 months ago from Utah

      T-

      I liked the video by Frank Turek on apologetics from your article, which I thought was interesting and I like that you are making a stand on what you believe.

      Now I must say that I may have been presumptuous to talk about being an apologist. But I really do want to help dispel ignorance and to clarify what I believe, especially to those who are truly sincere.

      It appears that you are hiding behind a letter so that you can troll.

      You have a right to your opinion about who I serve (even though you are wrong). But I know that I follow the teachings of scripture (Bible included) as part of how I live my life. So I forgive your statement of hate. God does know my heart and He knows me better than you do. I have faith in Christ, so by your definition, I am saved. What is wrong if I want to keep the commandments and follow Christ in more than word only? When Jesus invited the apostles to follow Him, did they just waive and tell Him they were saved? Consider Matthew 15:8. I am not trying to work my way to Heaven or build myself up, but to pay back salvation and to choose the right because I love God and His Gospel. I think you are deceived. You have an assurance of salvation, so why not just sin all you want?

      In other words, no, I am not saved by my works, but I believe in living the gospel. Not just reciting a few lines so I can say that I am saved and not have any accountability for my actions. Is God just to allow someone to go to Heaven who murders or fornicates, then just professes to believe in Jesus Christ in word only.

      I ask this sincerely…how would someone know that they are truly saved and accepted Christ in their heart? Human nature or the natural man would have us not do the works of Christ.

      The Jews probably said that Jesus was part of a cult. What fundamental of biblical truth do we deny? I would be very interested to hear what theological conflicts you believe there are. If what I believe is so bad, where is the bad fruit? Can Satan cast out Satan?

      Any changes to the Book of Mormon were grammar and to have chapters and verses. Have you even read the Book of Mormon?

      We do not aspire to become Gods, but to be like He is in our qualities that are good. A kitten becomes a cat. A puppy becomes a dog. A child becomes an adult. We are children of God and his offspring. Scripture is open to interpretation, but here are a few examples of our divine potential: We are the offspring of God (Acts 17:28). The Greek word for “offspring” is genos which means descent, kin, or stock. We are heirs of God (Rom.8:14-21; Gal.4:1-7). It can be difficult to comprehend the full plan and how it all works in the eternities (where God came from).

      Jesus was one with God in every way except physically.

      Many are biased against what I believe. It is like liberals vs conservative media. The liberals always depict the conservatives badly and vice versa. “Anti-Mormons” as both of you have probably listened to are always critical of my church. Many of the teachings that you may call doctrine are just theories that someone gave in a sermon over a hundred years ago and do not pertain to my salvation. Critics/antis jump on these things that many call “deep doctrine” and twist it, blow it out of proportion and take it out of context.

      Two examples come to mind if we are comparing you (and David) and myself.

      1. I think of music. Let’s say you love classical music and that is only what you like to hear. I have different tastes and I like many types of music. You are perfectly happy with your music. I just find more to enjoy.

      2. Think of pizza. It is as if you love pepperoni pizza only. And you are happy with it. I like to experience more with my pizza.

      So if your music/pizza (mainstream/traditional) Christianity works for you, enjoy it. I hope that you are blessed for your beliefs and efforts. I choose to enjoy my music/pizza that is according to my tastes. Maybe more people would listen to you if you read “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie.

      Don’t complicate things. If we’re looking at the basics, I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Bible just as you do. If you want to treat me as an outcast, that is your choice. I cannot prove to you what I believe by logic. Is it Christian to judge me or to be hateful because I disagree with you on how to be a Christian? Should I want to worship with you? The gospel of Jesus Christ is about love. If you are a Christian, you should forgive me for believing differently than you. But most importantly, you should appreciate that I am a believer in Jesus Christ and in the Bible.

      You must learn line upon line. Children do not understand the mysteries of God nor do they need to. You are hung up on hearsay. As the Bible teaches, milk before meat. If you are happy with milk, then I pray that you follow Christ the best way you know how and endure to the end. If you are ever open to seeing the good in what we have to offer, I invite you to attend our services, read the Book of Mormon and decide if its teachings are harmonious with the Bible, and to meet with our missionaries with an open mind.

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      I know because you follow a false religion. Smith added to the scriptures which is forbidding in both the Old and New testaments. he did not restore anything as even the Mormon creation account contradicts Genesis 1.

      You are unwilling as all you do is make empty statements and provide no proof. Your statement that people need faith to hear a prophet is wrong. Anyone can hear a prophet, Nineveh is a prime example.

      it doesn't take much to get those contradictions

      http://www.bible.ca/mor-contradictions.htm

      https://bibleask.org/book-mormon-contradict-bible/

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      14 months ago from Utah

      David-

      I appreciate your brevity, but you are not giving me examples.

      How do you know that my name is not written in the book of life?

      Why would you think I am unwilling to examine my belief system? Just because I believe that there is more to Christianity than what you profess to believe?

      We believe that God speaks to prophets now, just as He did in the Bible. Why would He have stopped? People need faith to hear a prophet speak. Joseph Smith taught true and prophesied like the prophets of old. He endured persecution. He made major claims, such as seeing God and Jesus Christ, so he was persecuted. He spoked like a prophet, lived as one and died as one. If you knew the Book of Mormon, you would know that its teachings do not contradict the Bible. It is a second witness that clarifies confusion. God organized the restored Church of Jesus Christ through him. He gave the message to all nations. He gathered thousands of people to Zion. Temples were built as in ancient times (another example of restoration). He was persecuted for saying he was a prophet. If he were a false prophet, wouldn’t he have said that he was Jesus Christ or that there was not Christ? He said that Jesus was the son of God. He learned and taught that God and Jesus Christ were separate and distinct beings. He taught that scripture was not complete. He taught that man was created in the image of God. He taught that the channel between earth and heaven is open and revelation is continuous.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      Oh I see in your profile you are a Mormon. Not just a Mormon but one who is a “self-proclaimed apologetic (defender) for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”

      By so doing are you aware that all you are doing is serving Satan?

      Well Mark, from reading your comment I am not surprised you are a Mormon. Faith without works is dead does not mean you are saved by works. What it means is if you are truly saved, accepted Christ in your heart and given him all, works will follow. If they don’t you haven’t truly accepted Christ in your heart (and only God knows your heart) your faith is dead or non- existent.

      For example you claim that we are judged by works (as if works will get you to heaven) while you fail to explain In Revelation 20 the distinction between “books were opened” and “another book was opened” is (a) the distinction between the books of works and the book of (effectively) grace, or (b) the distinction between the books of the wicked and the book of the righteous. If (a), then the righteous are not really judged according to deeds at all. If (b), then the picture is different: we are all judged according to works, but all those in the book of life are regarded as righteous anyway.

      Although Mormons profess to be Christians and say they believe the Word of God, there are many of their beliefs that contradict Christianity. In fact, Mormonism can be referred to as a cult, which can be defined as “a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of biblical truth.” Mormons say they are Christians, but because they reject foundational truths from God’s Word, they are not.

      Joseph Smith, who referred to himself as “The Prophet,” founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the mid-1800s. He claimed to have seen a vision of God the Father and God the Son, in which they denounced modern Christianity and appointed Smith to reveal and restore “true” Christianity (Articles of Faith, p. 182–185). Three years later, Smith alleged that the angel Moroni told him about some golden plates on which the Book of Mormon was written. In spite of Smith’s questionable background and proclivity toward bending the truth (see The Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism, New York, 1861; and Mormonism Unveiled, Painesville, Ohio, 1834), many believed Smith, and a new “religion” was born. Today, the members of the Mormon Church number in the millions.

      The Book of Mormon is purported to be a new revelation, one that Mormons say is part of the new covenant to Israel and “another witness” to the truth of the Bible (History of the Church 4:461, 8th Article of Faith). Aside from the many theological conflicts with the Bible and historical and archeological fact, the writing of the Book of Mormon was shrouded in mystery and false claims. For example, Joseph Smith and his associates asserted that one Professor Charles Anthon of Columbia University verified the Egyptian characters on the golden plates. However, this same professor wrote a rebuttal letter soon after, saying that he never did any such thing and had, in fact, found the characters to be a hoax. In addition, many verses in the Mormon scriptures have been changed over the years, as the church leaders attempt to cover up something embarrassing in their past and to defend themselves against criticism. These facts alone are enough to cast much doubt on the veracity of the Book of Mormon.

      One of the many areas in which Mormons fall short of saving faith is their belief that God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). This directly contradicts the Bible, which states that God has existed in His position as God of the universe from eternity past (Revelation 1:8; 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:15–16; Psalm 102:24–27). God was never a man (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9) and is the holy and powerful Creator of all things (Genesis 1; Psalm 24:1; Isaiah 37:16). Mormons also believe that they themselves can attain the status of gods in the afterlife through their works here on earth (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345–354). However, no man can ever become like God (1 Samuel 2:2; Isaiah 43:10–11; 44:6; 45:21–22), despite what the serpent told Eve in the garden (Genesis 3:5).

      Mormons also believe that Jesus was a god, but not God Himself (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547; Articles of Faith, p. 35; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372). It is essential to Christian faith that Jesus is one with God and that He is God’s only begotten Son who became flesh (John 1:1, 14; John 3:16). Only Jesus’ oneness with God would have allowed Him to live a sinless, blameless life (Hebrews 7:26). And only Jesus Christ was able to pay the price for our sins by His death on the cross (Romans 4:25; Acts 4:12).

      Those who follow the Mormon faith also believe that they can attain heaven through works (Doctrine and Covenants 58:42–43; 2 Nephi 9:23–24; Alma 34:30–35; Articles of Faith, p.92). While they claim faith in Christ, they also rely on following the commandments of the Mormon Church (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p 188; Mormon Doctrine, p. 670) and practicing good works (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 11:37) in order to achieve salvation. The Bible is very clear on this point, stating that good works can never earn the way to heaven (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8–9; Titus 3:5) and that faith in Jesus Christ alone is the only way to salvation (John 10:9; 11:25; 14:6; Acts 4:12). Salvation by grace is incompatible with salvation by human works (Romans 11:6).

      Sadly, many in the Mormon Church are unaware of the religion’s shady past, amended scriptures, and even the full doctrine of their church. Many Mormons who have discovered these things have left the church and come to a true saving faith in Jesus Christ. As Christians, we must treat Mormons with love and understand that they are among those deceived by Satan himself (1 Peter 5:8). Satan’s goal is to distort the truth, produce false assurance of salvation, and extend a deceptive hope of godhood (2 Corinthians 4:4).

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      Mark, I take from your comment about Mormons that you are a Mormon. Is that correct?

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      You are forgetting one crucial detail, your name has to be written in the Book of life to enter heaven. I am not getting into the issue of works.

      What I see in your comments is an unwillingness to examine your own belief system and raise the question how can a man who was known to be a con man be worthy of your trust?

    • Mark O Richardson profile image

      Mark Richardson 

      14 months ago from Utah

      Yes, the Bible is often taken out of context and not looked at as a whole. Grace and works, for example. Many, if not most Christians believe in what I would consider grace only. However, they do not consider James 2-Faith without works is dead and Revelation 20-We are judged by our works. I think what you are saying is that truth is truth. I like that you firmly believe in what the scriptures teach and you are taking a firm stance on what you believe in. God has rules that He chooses to follow. He can do anything, but He keeps His promises. I agree that there are consequences for our actions. If it were not so, God would not be just.

      Readmikenow-Agency is vital as part of God's plan. He would never force us to obey Him. We must choose to follow Him.

      All must choose what they believe in for themselves. I think that you are saying that faith is fundamental and I agree. The perception I have is that those who say they are "saved" do not think they are accountable and can sin all they want because Jesus has taken care of everything. If that is the case, I think most people would wonder why they should speak/act/think like one who follows Christ. One thing to consider with Paul's teachings is that he was writing to the Christians in different areas such as Rome and Corinth, so the teachings may be taken out of context. I agree that there is a plan of Salvation. I accept Jesus Christ as my savior, I know that Jesus Christ is the only way and that I am a sinner. So what is wrong with how I live my faith? What is wrong with me choosing to do more than recite a few lines? Consider salvation as a check for million dollars. I must endorse it. I must take it to the bank. If I do not, what good is the million dollars? Going off your comments in your other articles about "Mormons", you are judging me as not Christian or that I will go to Hell. Jesus Christ is my judge.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      It’s the only thing they can do to justify in their minds a sinful life they just don’t want to give up,

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      @T- isn't that the way atheists face life? deny deny deny

    • david tee profile imageAUTHOR

      David Thiessen 

      14 months ago from Philippines

      @readmikenow-- it was an oversight and I should have mentioned it more specifically

    • Readmikenow profile image

      Readmikenow 

      14 months ago

      Good article but you didn't mention that God give humans free will. Does God send people to Hell or do they make a choice to go there?

      Proverbs 16:9

      In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

    • tsadjatko profile image

      The Logician 

      14 months ago from now on

      David, a convincing explanation that hell does exist!

      Just WHO is anyone to question the wisdom of their holy, omniscient, omnipotent, loving creator and his plan? Even an atheist would have to concede no human being is capable of questioning such a God’s plan but to do so they must imagine that God doesn’t exist, created nothing and so there is no plan.

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