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Eternal Hell

Updated on April 11, 2013

Eternal Hell – Or is it?

In a previous Hub we discovered that according to the Bible, the soul is not immortal. It was shown that only God is immortal and the soul can, and does die (cf. Exe. 18:20, Rev. 16:3). We also saw that people, both good and bad, go the grave to wait for the resurrection when Christ returns.

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So where does the doctrine of an eternally burning hellfire come from? Is the devil really in charge of hell? Virtually all the world holds view about hell that is not taught in the Bible and it’s very tragic because not only is it crucial to understand the truth regarding this teaching, but also because it mars the character of God. When I first heard of the fire and brimstone and eternally burning sinners as a youngster, it seemed pretty obvious that this was contradictory of an all-loving God. If God tormented His enemies in a flaming eternity, He would be more cruel and unfeeling than man has ever been in the worst of war atrocities. It’s easy to see why this teaching has led many to turn their back on God. However, an eternal hell of torment would also be hell for God, who loves even the vilest sinner.

What the Bible Really Says

The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meanings...

Old Testament

31 times from the word "Sheol," which means "the grave"

New Testament

10 times from the word "Hades," which means "the grave."

12 times from the word "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning."

1 time from the word "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."

As noted above, the word "hell" is used 54 times in the Bible, and in only 12 cases does it refer to "a place of burning."

The Place of Burning

The Greek word "Gehenna" is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley, which lies immediately south and west of Jerusalem, was a place where dead animals, garbage, and other refuse were dumped. Fire burned constantly, as it does in modern sanitation dump sites. The Bible uses "Gehenna" or the "Valley of Hinnom" as a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. The fire of Gehenna was not unending. Otherwise it would still be burning southwest of Jerusalem today. Neither will the fire of hell be unending.

Specifically

2 Peter 2:9 “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished."

A close look at this verse indicates that there is no one in hellfire today, but rather that God reserves, or holds back, the wicked until the ‘day of judgement’ to be punished.

Matthew 13:40-42 "So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire."

John 12:48 "The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

These verses also indicate that sinners are cast into hellfire at ‘the end of the world’, or ‘the last day.’ This makes sense when we consider that, according to the popular belief, a murderer who died 2000 years ago would be burning 2000 years longer than one who dies and deserves punishment for the same sin today.

John 5:28, 29 "The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Job 21:30, 32 "The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction." "Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb."

Here the Bible is being quite specific that both the wicked and the righteous remain in the grave until resurrection day. Just as no one is in hell right now, no one but a select few are in heaven either.

James 1:15 "Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

Romans 6:43 "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

These verses tell us that the punishment for sin is ‘death’, not eternal suffering.

At this time, we’ll touch on the subject of the terms ‘first death’ and ‘second death’. To put it simply – we all die the first death, but not everyone has to die the second death. That is, everyone dies and goes to the grave to await the resurrection when we all (wicked and righteous) are resurrected to either face our judgement, or to meet Jesus in the air. When the wicked are cast into the lake of fire – this is the second death, from which there is no coming back.

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Bible is clear that the wicked will be obliterated. It tells us that they suffer death (Romans 6:23), suffer destruction (Job 21:30), shall perish (Psalms 37:20), will burn up (Malachi 4:1), shall be destroyed together (Psalms 37:38), will consume away (Psalms 37:20), shall be cut off (Psalms 37:9), shall be slain (Psalms 62:3). God will destroy them (Psalms 145:20), and fire shall devour them (Psalms 21:9). Note that there is no mention of the wicked living forever in misery!

Revelation 20:9 “They went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

This verse indicates that, at the end of the world, God is the one who kindles hellfire. Interesting to note that it happens on the ‘breadth of the earth’ and not in some deep underground cave possibly near the center of the earth ;)

Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Matthew 16:27 "And then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Luke 12:47, 48 "That servant, which knew his lord's will, and ... neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."

In these verses we see that although the Bible does not tell us how long the wicked will be punished before they die, it does specifically state that all will be punished according to their deeds and thusly, some will receive greater punishment than others.

Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it."

Revelation 21:1, 4 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Here we see that the Bible specifically teaches that hellfire will go out and that there will not be left ‘a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.’ Also, ‘all former things’ will be passed away and hell, being one of the former things, is included. So we have God’s promise that it will be abolished!

Malachi 4:1, 3 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

It is important to note here that the wicked burn like ‘stubble’ which will be burned up. That little word “up” denotes completion. Nothing but ashes are left. Psalms 37:10, 20 also indicates that the wicked will go up in smoke and be completely destroyed.

Some teachings may say that it is the ‘spirit’, or ‘soul’ which is punished, but I’ve discussed that idea in my Hub about the Afterlife. In case it was not made clear in that Hub, the Bible tells us that real, live people enter hell in bodily form and are destroyed both body & soul. The fire from God will fall upon real people and blot them out of existence.

Matthew 5:30 "It is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Matthew 10:28 "Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

As for the devil being in charge of hellfire…

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire."

Ezekiel 28:18, 19 "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. ... And never shall thou be any more."

The Big Picture

If you have read my Hub on The Bible Story, it may make it easier to understand God’s purpose in hellfire, which is that hell will destroy all sin and sinners, including the originator of sin – the devil, making the world safe for eternity. It is God’s plan to isolate sin and blot it out of existence for all time. From this perspective, it should be easy to see that an eternal hell of torment would actually perpetuate sin and make its obliteration impossible.

God’s Mercy and Love?

It has always been the work of God to save rather than destroy. As such, the work of destroying the wicked in hellfire is so foreign to God's nature that the Bible calls it His "strange act."

Isaiah 28:21 "For the Lord shall rise up ... that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act."

God's all-loving heart will ache at the destruction of the wicked. He works to save every soul! But if one rejects His love and clings to sin, God will have no choice but to destroy the sinner with his sin when He rids the universe of that malignant growth called "sin" in the fires of the last day.

Ezekiel 33:11 "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?"

Luke 9:56 "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

Sin Will Not Rise Again

Nahum 1:9 "He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time."

Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Revelation 21:3, 4 "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain."


In His word, God has promised that sin will not rise again. His people will be filled with peace, love, joy, and contentment. Their lives of total happiness will be far more glorious and breathtaking than mere words could ever describe. The real misfortune of hell is in missing heaven. A person who fails to enter this glorious kingdom has made the saddest choice of a lifetime.

According to the Bible, hellfire isn't even meant for human beings. It is "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Yet because countless people refuse to accept Jesus' great sacrifice for them and decide instead to follow the great enemy of souls, they must share his fate. Satan and all sinners will be destroyed, the earth will be cleansed, and "affliction shall not rise up the second time" (Nahum 1:9). Sin and sinners will be completely destroyed, forever separated from God, the source of all life.

Eternal Hell a Man-made Theory

As should be clear by now, the "eternal hell of torment" supposition originated not from the Bible, but rather from misguided people who were, perhaps inadvertently, led of the devil. And, by the way, no one will be in heaven because he feared hell. People are saved because they love and obey Christ.

As with most of the popular doctrines that you may read about on my Hubs, this teaching of an eternal hell stems from misinterpreted Bible texts or texts that are taken out of context, typically resulting from a poor exegesis. Let’s examine a few of these texts…

Revelation 14: 11 “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

From these verses, the idea of an eternal hell may seem plausible. However, a proper study of Scripture shows that "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.

For instance, Hannah promised God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (cf. 1 Samuel 1:22). Rather than take this out of context, we can read on to where it tells us what this actually means. Verse 28 tells us Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth"

Also, Jonah said that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (cf. Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (cf. Jonah 1:17).

More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon that "went on forever."

The Rich Man and Lazarus


Another story from the Bible that many find difficult to resolve with the truth about hellfire is the story of the rich man and Lazarus, found in Luke chapter 16 (please read). But by realizing that this passage is a parable-at the end of a long list of parables-we can understand better the imagery which Jesus uses.

It should be obvious that “Abraham's bosom” is not the eternal home of the redeemed, and it seems unlikely that the lost in hell can communicate with the saved in heaven. When we remember that hell takes place at the end of the world, and that there are no people suffering in hell at this present time, we can determine more exactly three major points contained in Jesus' remarks.

1 - By representing the beggar as being in heaven and the rich man as lost, Jesus was teaching His hearers that, contrary to the dominate view at the time, wealth was not necessarily an sign of divine favour, just as poverty was not a sign of God's judgment upon a person.

2 - Jesus was also seeking to teach the Jews that salvation would not be theirs by inheritance. The rich man in torments calls out to "father Abraham," the same way the Jews of Jesus' day were mistakenly pointing to heritage as proof of their assurance of salvation.

3 - Jesus was looking for a way to lead His hearers to recognize that only faithfulness to God's Word would groom them to enter into eternal life. He told them, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (cf. Luke 16:31).

To use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in order to promote the false doctrine of an eternally burning hell is to misuse God's Word and to misrepresent His character.

It is my hope that this Hub will remove the dark cloud that has been placed over the character of God, and that many will have a new understanding of His magnificent love and mercy for all mankind.

Special thanks to Pastor Doug Batchelor and the Amazing Facts ministry

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    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      See ya, hate to be ya.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      All you two have ever done is mock. I am DONE with you both!

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @Dan, look who is calling the kettle black?

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Dannytaylor,

      So you deny what historic Christianity has always taught which is that we have to work it. We are all prone to stumble.

      You really are a heretic big time. No wonder you have to resort to mocking.

    • Dannytaylor02 profile image

      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Haha sounds like he has his own religion then based on medieval ideas

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @Dan. I agree. I have friends who are Catholics, but they don't share that hateful view that new has for those outside of their church, and neither does his Pope.

    • Dannytaylor02 profile image

      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Haha sword, anyone with any sense of spirituality will see the gaping inconsistencies in what newenglandsun is saying and what the bible says.

      Frankly it is a compliment that he calls us a heretic because we most certainly are heretical towards catholic views.

      Funny thing is I am sure if most of your "saints" where to alive today they would apologize and change their ways, we live in the age of enlightenment unlike them...I can forgive your "fathers" ignorance but you have no excuse because you are not shrouded in ignorance, you just choose to be.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      "@new. At least I wont kill those I disagree with you murderer."

      And here, you combat with ad hominem. Honestly, if that's your best tactic, then you will always be seen as a combative belligerent. I am praying that God relieves your tensions and hostility, Sword.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @new. At least I wont kill those I disagree with you murderer.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Turn the other cheek, for the record, deals with retributive violence. Not judiciary or protective violence. How many times do I have to say this? And you still won't get it Sword. You have run from the Truth into your own little corner of loneliness and theological self-indulgence. Creating a Hell for yourself all the while attempting to claim its not real.

      I will leave you be to your own ramblings Sword. You can attack others you disagree with and you can feel free to believe your the innocent one. You're not though.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Wow, Sword, you are an incredulous idiot. And a heretic.

      Honestly, both you and Dannytaylor have played the "holier than thou" game. I came here in genuine love, honesty, and integrity. All you two did was just bash the Catholic Church. Know why they burned heretics? This is precisely why.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      What ever happened with turning the other cheek? Oh, I forgot. The RCC doesn't turn the other cheek. They kill, loot and torture first and make up excuses later.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      If there is a perceived threat, which there was, then it is not murder, it self-defense. You are the one who is mad.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      To preserve unity of the faith? Are you mad? The preservation of the unity of the faith does not justify murder in God's name.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      That was to preserve the unity of the faith. You and I obviously need more in-depth historical study on this.

      http://www.catholic.com/radio/shows/how-to-explain...

      Perhaps Thomas Madden can help us both out? I'd like to read Stark's book on this subject.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      No. I don't need anything you have to show me. You are what I said earlier and a product of your church. During the siege of Béziers, the crusaders asked how they should know the catholics from the heretic cathars, and Caesarius of Heisterbach quotes an abbot saying this “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius". It means "Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His” using A verse from scripture to justify this atrocity 2Tim2:19. Over 20.000 men, women and children were butchered by the RCC in this town all in the name of God.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Sword,

      Here's a highly recommended book.

      http://www.amazon.com/Heresy-Authority-Medieval-Eu...

      Buy the book, read the documents, now see who's the merciless judge here.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @new. You have no love, pity or mercy in your heart. May you harvest what you sow, because you judge without mercy and therefore you will so be judged.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      I'm saying that executing them was not the best solution, however, the heretics were hardly helpless, the heretics were always fairly questioned, and so, yes, they kind of brought it on themselves sadly.

      Danny,

      Arius was the worst of them.

    • Dannytaylor02 profile image

      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      You most certainly have not explained they were heretics, you said they where arrogant and considering what they were up against I can forgive them for that. It isn't conspiracy theory its fact.

      What have I to say about my martyrs (Witnesses) now? well in case you haven't noticed they are all around you and your religion like the locust plague of revelation exposing your religion for exactly what it is.

      Not much point in continuing this discussion because catholocism is already a defeated opponent, its a falling statue that is about to hit the floor. You can either go down with it or come to your senses, honestly its a much better way of living anyway and it makes sense alongside the idea that god is a "god of love.".

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      "holier than thou", so they deserved to die because they were according to you, more self-righteous than your RCC?

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      So what you are saying is that those so called heretics deserved being killed?

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Thomas Moore is responsible for having burned Lord Byron's memoirs. Please leave your conspiracy propaganda out of it.

      I've already explained that these heretics were heretics in the truest sense of the term. The Cathars were practically a "holier than thou" movement. What have you to say of your martyrs now?

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Both inquisitions and witch-trials were carried out in juridicial procedure run by either the secular or religious. Scholars debate over that. No one was "murdered".

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @new. It is not about how many were murdered, it is about your church being responsible for murder in the name of God. A church only needs to murder one person to be responsible for murder, and your RCC murdered many.

    • Dannytaylor02 profile image

      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      @newenglandsun

      You did not give me a verse supporting that at all you gave me this:

      Hebrews 4:12 - Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (NRSV Catholic Edition)

      How has that answered what I asked for? let me remind you that I asked you to show me a verse in the bible that tells me that the soul is immortal not that the soul and spirit is separate...Also what is your interpretation of what the spirit is anyway, do you think that its an actual person?

      Please leave your fathers out of this, I suppose one of your fathers is Thomas moore who burned countless thousands of people for "daring" to have a bible in their own language so that they can read it for themselves rather than having you people force your opinion of it down our gullets...how do I know catholocism isn't the truth? for one they made this Thomas moore a SAINT not that long ago, disgusting. if he is closer to the true source than I am then god is a maniac

      The catholic church killed more Christians than muslims during the middle ages because they were "heretics" how can you defend that?

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      I believe I have already addressed that. You'll get scholars ranging from various opinions (some I think are more bunk than others). No scholar would contend that there were "millions murdered". Maybe if you calculate crusades but even that's debatable. And crusades were largely considered just wars by the Catholic Church. I haven't studied them as much though, sorry. You might try reading Rodney Stark on this subject.

      As for the inquisitions, my own view which has come from what I've been able to read and study (I would like to actually be able to write a book about all of this medieval era stuff) I would have to say that the people killed in the inquisition were hardly "martyrs". In fact, they were actually quite arrogant and I nearly threw up reading some of their arrogance. I went into reading them from a perspective much like yours though. As for witch-trials, I'd contend there was much more politics involved in them and that the politicians took what the clerics wrote and used it to foister their own lusts.

      There were probably somewhere around 45,000-90,000 killed in about 500 years of witch-hunts, mostly by secular judges misusing clerical writings on demonology as well as the banned Malleus Maleficarum. There were probably 10,000 killed during 700 years of inquisitions. Mostly arrogant and not helpless men. There were probably 900,000-2,000,000 killed in crusades and holy wars.

      Were the inquisitions justifiable? I'd say yes. Were they the best solution to the problem? I'd say no.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @new, lets set aside the Nazi collaboration part and look at the millions murdered all in the name of God by the RCC.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      http://www.britannica.com/holocaust/article-236597

      Read and weep sword, read and weep.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Wow, Sword, you really aren't that bright are you?

      Look up, "The Myth of Hitler's Pope" written by a Rabbi. Honestly, there's nothing you'll get by against a double-major in history and religion when it comes to history or religion.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @New, well at least we are not part of a church responsible of murdering millions or collaborating with Nazis during ww2.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Dannytaylor says:

      "HAHA newenglandsun and there we have that classic catholic knowledge we have all learned to love to hate...you have just come out with a load of jibberish and tried to make out as if it is actually a good answer to my question?"

      I gave you a verse supporting that the soul is not just a physical inner component of man. I then presented you the evidence of the Church fathers who are far closer to the Biblical source than you are. I also gave you an article proving the soul as distinct from the physical and you still mock the Church and her magisterium? You are worse than Sword.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      When a man dies, his soul ends. I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I sided with New. as for fear...1John4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

    • Dannytaylor02 profile image

      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      @SOM

      well I do remember that but then why are you arguing with my point about god being able to destroy the soul? I was only bringing it out to show newenglandsun that the soul is not eternal so there is no need for a hell to put them in.

      Yeah mate god will all to be saved and there will be a resurrection of the righteous along with the unrighteous which is a good assurance for us.

      I like that point you bring out about god wanting everyone to be saved which I naturally agree with but I certainly don't want their ideas o be saved as well (hell for example.)

      Sorry I misunderstood what you where trying to say sword lets just agree to disagree with newengland :)

      P.S sure it was to aid them during the end of their days but it is still a lesson for us now and his point I think was to help us to put into perspective who we should fear, not man but god regardless of the being jew, English, American or indeed French!

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @Dannytaylor02. Ok, I will answer it for you. 1Christ, 2Jews, 3to save them from God's wrath AD70, 4Just before Passover (the 1st of 3 ancient Jewish festivals) and before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as prophesized, and last, 5spiritually (John 3:63). About 9 months ago I read your hub called "Bible Questions - Bible Teaching on Hell" and I responded by saying "Great hub friend" and you thanked me. I don't believe in hell, but I do know that God wills all to be saved (1Tim2:4) and I say "Your will be done".

    • Dannytaylor02 profile image

      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      @SOM

      Oh dear, sword I had you down as a reasonable thinking person too.

      Jesus said them to his apostles so that they would have the courage to carry out their ministerial work. He said it so that they wouldn't worry about the persecution that they would inevitably go through.

      That is the context of the scripture so I do not understand your point?

      I think the problem is that you have been told that hell exists and you accepted it without ever really questioning for yourself if it does exist or not. As we get older we become more cynical and tend to stick to what we believe so now your left in a very difficult situation where you need to try to justify your belief in hell despite the overwhelming evidence against it...that is clear when you try to misconstrue such a simple verse in Mathew and try to complicate it enough to make out that it means something other than what its actually saying!!

      These twisted tactics don't work in the long run im afraid you just delay the inevitable. you will identify the truth by its fruitage, Catholics are rapidly declining and for good reason.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @Dannytaylor02, Regarding Matt10:28. Who said these words, who did He speak them to, why did He speak these words, when was it spoken and how were they spoken? Learn this and you may by God's will get a better understanding of what Christ really said and came to do.

    • Dannytaylor02 profile image

      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      HAHA newenglandsun and there we have that classic catholic knowledge we have all learned to love to hate...you have just come out with a load of jibberish and tried to make out as if it is actually a good answer to my question?

      So I ask you to quote from the bible and you give me a quote of your own or perhaps one of your so called saints? not good enough I am afraid.

      Can you explain what your last sentence actually means? I believe whatever the bible says so I reject what the fathers have to say?

      Who are these fathers and why should I listen to them over the bible AND why would I want them to support me rather than gods word?

      @SOM yeah I know I got confused :S anyway look at Mathew 10:28 for a proper translation!

      Gehenna is used in the bible to illustrate hell its not just a place in the bible

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @Dannytaylor02 Shoel is the grave and Gehenna is a real place just outside Jerusalem that is symbolic for God's coming judgement on Judah.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Only God is immortal of himself. He fashions the soul as immortal.

      Hebrews 4:12 - Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (NRSV Catholic Edition)

      You believe whatever the Bible says so you reject what the fathers have to say. Naturally, because none of them ever support you.

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      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      uhm excuse me...sheol either way the point is that jesus said both body and soul is destroyed so no detracting from that point!

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @Dannytaylor02 did you really say that Shoel and Gehenna are the same thing?

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      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Oh please don't quote me 1 Corinthians 15:53...yes that scripture tells us that the soul can BECOME immortal but it certainly does not mean that the soul is immortal since birth. surely it makes sense that we need to prove ourselves before we gain immortality rather than god giving us immortality and now because humans rebel against him he creates an eternal hell to punish us forever?

      Without going into scripture (since you are clearly incapable of doing so successfully anyway and have ignored pretty much all of the great scriptures this hub has quoted) can't we look at it from a common sense perspective?

      We are made in the image of god and our natural inclination to the idea of such a place existing is disgust. Surely gods natural inclination of such a place existing is the same, but he has the right to feel even more aggrieved because certain people have said that HE created it and they try to convince people of it using HIS word?

      How angry do you think god is at people like you calling him a sadistic pyromaniac? thankfully for you not angry enough to torture you forever!

      The problem with my common sense analogy is that as we all know common sense is dead...

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      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Can you tell me which ones support immortality of the soul?

      I have already quoted two which simply cannot be construed any other way other than exactly what it says.

      I want you to quote me some because right now your arguing with your own messiah jesus ;)

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Oh dear, you are misinterpreting death. It is actually more-so a lie to say that the soul's immortality is not founded on scriptures. It is.

      http://www.arcane-az.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/1...

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      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Newenglandsun apologies because you clearly dont believe the soul is eternal!!

    • Dannytaylor02 profile image

      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Newenglandsun

      Nope I dont believe that I do. Your idea of hell is based on the lie that our soul is eternal, read Ezekiel 18:4 and also take note of Jesus's words when he says we should not fear those that can kill the body but fear the one that can destroy both body and soul in sheol (gehena, HELL)

      It doesnt matter what your opinion of hell it only matters what the bible says about it because god is the ONLY person qualifiy to judge...even jesus said to satan "let Jehovah (yahweh) rebuke you"

      So in your studies of job did you see the verse when job say "protect my soul in hell" he said this because he knew what hell means...death.

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      That may be possible. I understand satan as our adamic carnal nature.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Um...yeah. As I have a Hebrew professor who constantly emphasizes this as we go over Job. Yet nevertheless, the Christian faith is built on both Old and New Testaments. Chances are, you'll run across a scholar who attributes Job to being written in the time of the Babylonian exile which would mean Zoroastrian influence, which would mean the chances are strong that they took the Satan as a literal person/being.

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @new, do you know how the Jews understood the words Satan and devil?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Sword,

      Was talking to you.

      Danny,

      You have severe misconceptions of Hell.

      http://newenglandsun.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/hell...

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      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Newenglandsum

      That is a good article but it doesnt say anything about hell.

      I personally cant think of a bigger slander against god than hell, atheism is far less offensive! They say there is no god whereas you are insinuating that he tortures people for all eternity...

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      Who are you talking to New?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Oh dear. You are denying the real presence of the Devil? Look, he's not a scare tactic, okay? Yes, he is real, yes he has minions, and yes, he uses them to throw you into deception.

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      His name is Nero.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Sword,

      That would be a valid interpretation as well so long as you still maintain the position that there will be an antichrist spirit influenced by the Devil that Christ must destroy.

      http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/cate...

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      The second death is the second destruction of the Jewish religion. Their spiritual death. The Babylonians destroyed the temple 1st circa BC400, and Rome destroyed the 2nd temple AD70 ending the old covenant allowing the new covenant to be God's new way. This was prophesized by Christ when He used the parable in Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Danny,

      PSA is the pagan, Baal worship religion here.

      http://spectrummagazine.org/node/4768

      Sword, grace requires a response. The works are always done by and through Christ. The fact that he has already won the battle is proof that theosis (entering into the community of oneness with the divine) is possible.

      Andy,

      The first death, my guess would be physical death. The second death spiritual death. Hence why St. Augustine, in his work entitled City of God, argues the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation is a spiritual resurrection. Revelation is filled with a lot of figurative language and while its interesting to study, it is the hardest book to derive eschatological doctrine from. It still is very useful for deriving moral teachings and exercising worship practices from.

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      Andy 3 years ago

      Any comments about what the Bible refers to as the first and second deaths? (Rev. 2:11, Rev. 20:6, 14, Rev. 21:8)

      :)

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @new, that becomes works. When you have to work for your salvation, you are no better and just as ignorant as the Jews were.

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      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Newenglandsum

      Your view was foreign to the early christians which your religion fed to the lions and it was also foreign to the jews, and now thank god that we have left the age of ignorance (funnily enough an age of ignorance brought on by Catholicism keeping the bible hidden from the masses by keeping it in a foreign language) now that we all have read the bible ourselves you cant fool us anymore because its the for all to see :)

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Christ's work defeated death and sin on behalf of all. However, one must react to this or they will be left in chains forever.

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @new, we are saved from our unconscious sleep in the grave. Christ finished it when He said "I am done". He did not say afterwards "Now it is up to them to seek salvation". The cross was and will always be victorious. It was God's work to save us, not ours. You are right, we are saved from the bondage of sin, yet we still harvest what we sow. If I murder a man, I forfeit the right to live. If I hate my brother, then I also will be hated. If I judge without mercy, I to will so be judged.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Sword,

      We are saved from the binding chains of sin. But we can still lock ourselves back into it.

      Dannytaylor,

      Your view was foreign to the Church up until the 16th century C.E. Good luck defending that now. That God would delude 60% of all Christians is abominable and only taught in heretical Calvinism.

    • Dannytaylor02 profile image

      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Newenglandsun

      My point is heretical towards what catholics believe but not to what the bible teaches big difference:)

      Most people these days see right through Catholicism

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      What do you think we were saved from?

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      So are you and I still heretics?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      And Sword,

      You would actually agree with me that we weren't saved from God's wrath, right? So where's your complaint?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      We were all heretics at one point in our lives. That was when we were children and we were exploring alternatives rather than accepting the wisdom of our parents.

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @newenglandsun. Everyone is a heretic to you outside of your belief system.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Dannytaylor,

      your view of atonement is heretical. Roman Catholics teach satisfaction. Greek Catholics teach Christus victor. I can assure you, we were NOT saved from God's wrath nor did someone have to die in order for us to be forgiven. Logic there = epic fail.

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      Andy 3 years ago

      Lol... pot, kettle, black

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      Get off your high horse andy.

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      Andy 3 years ago

      Swordo... this is the comments section of a Hub

      As such it is not up to you to tell 'anyone' to "stay out of" anything. Got it? You want chris to stay out because you already know his view? The truth is we 'all' know your view... so now what? On top of that 'you' are the one who said previously that you were done here. Yet you come back and tell others not to comment? Get real. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. ;)

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      Daniel Nathan Taylor 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

      Romans 6; 7 enough said...if you are acquitted from sin then how can you possibly be punished further?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      You cannot do good apart from Christ regardless of whether you get that or not.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      So now you are telling me that you don't have to believe in God to be saved as long as you are good? Gotcha

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Matt. 12:30, Matt. 25:31-46, Mk. 9:40, Lk. 11:23, and Rom. 2:13

      Yes. And I would strongly disagree with you on the idea that atheists can't seek God just because they don't believe in him. If they can't seek him, then by logic, they can't argue against his existence.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      I said nothing about Hindus or Muslims seeking God, I am talking about what Pope Francis said about good atheists. Seeking God is from and with the heart of the believer, but the atheist believes in nothing and has no reason to seek a god they don't believe in, so I ask you again. Is Pope Francis right?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      christiananrkist,

      Convenient of you to leave the following verses out:

      Matt. 12:30, Matt. 25:31-46, Mk. 9:40, Lk. 11:23, and Rom. 2:13

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Sword, all I am asking you is to ask is what seeking God looks like. There are some gods that we reject such as Zeus and Odin and Mercury. So when you say an atheist, Hindu, or Muslim inherently rejects God, you really aren't being reasonable.

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      Please stay out of this Chris, I already know your view. My question was addressed to newenglandsun,

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      christiananrkist 3 years ago

      Forgive me, if i may interject with a quick scripture.

      romans 3:10

      As it is written:

      “There is none righteous, no, not one;

      Atheists would not go to heaven, for there is none who are good. atheists by their very definition and nature reject God.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      A muslim or hindue believe in their gods, and atheists don't believe in any god therefore they don't seek any god because they have rejected Him. So is your Pope right or wrong? Do good atheists go to heaven?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      What does seeking God look like? For an atheist, it looks different than for a Muslim or a Hindu.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      An atheist does not desire to seek what it does not believe in, so is your Pope right or wrong?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      I don't know to be honest. My answer would be "yes" though. If they desire and seek God.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      I never said that Pope Francis said that all atheists will go to heaven, Stop twisting what I said. So do good atheists go to heaven?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      A heretic by definition is one who is a sectarian and thinks their part is the whole. A deviant from truth teaching something under the guise of truth but their guise is actually harmful to the faith. Take Arius for example. The Arian heresy sought to reduce Christ to a creature. How then is theosis possible?

      The Nestorian heresy sought to demote both Christ and his mother. The monophysite heresy sought to separate man from God inadvertently by denying God was fully man but rather was a mixture. Both also effectively separate man from God.

      What does universalism do? It teaches "God raping us" (McGrath, 178, Studies in Doctrine).

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Sword, we already discussed this. He said "good atheists", not "all atheists".

      You have done nothing but distort my position. I am not saying that all "unbelievers go to hell" nor am I saying that all believers will end up in Heaven.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @Chris, no one is calling me names? Oh really? How about being called a heretic by newenglandsun. I could just as easily call all of you three heretics, but it is not my nature to do so.

      @newenglandsun, I am not a SDA or JW, and I also have my personnel views of both these denominations just as I do with the RCC. So answer this, if unbelievers go to hell, why did Pope Francis say that good atheists will also go to heaven?

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Sword,

      SDA's are historicists and they distort history just to prove it. Their prophetess was wrong so many times. They are a prophetic movement entirely.

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      christiananrkist 3 years ago

      ok swordo, no need to be rude. no one is calling you names for not believing in hell.

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      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      @newenglandsun. You are not very bright are you? SDAs believe in hell as in annihilation.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Dear goodness, Andy!

      Dough Batchelor?!? Be very careful. He is a Seventh Day Adventist pastor and they really aren't the most theologically honest.

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      newenglandsun 3 years ago

      Sword,

      St. Gregory of Nazianzus asks the question but decides neither for or against it. Within the Catholic and Orthodox Churches it is not at all heretical to at least hope for universalism.

      St. Gregory of Nyssa had his writings tampered with by heretics. Neither Gregories were heretical universalists, that would have made them semi-Calvinists.

      http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

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      Andy 3 years ago

      As expected...

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

      Hell is hell how ever you want to candy coat it. I already told you what He saved us from, from the GRAVE. This discussion is losing its allure. I'm done.

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      Andy 3 years ago

      There is only one name under heaven in which we are saved... saved from what?

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      Andy 3 years ago

      Again, this Hub is about how hell is NOT forever. Lol. Yes all will confess Christ, but as a previous verse cited, He will say to some who say "Lord Lord" I never knew you. Blessing and forgiving enemies have nothing to do with the enemies salvation. Yes salvation is a free gift, but not all will ACCEPT that gift. You still choose to ignore the question on morals, but would rather use it to try to insult. Which you do poorly. Let me try another way... if I am going to heaven anyway, why shouldn't I sleep with a married woman? Or murder? Or lie? Why shouldn't I take that which is not mine? Universalists have no answere for these questions...