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God Versus Satan

Updated on September 6, 2013

Introduction

Christians often claim that Satan is responsible for leading people astray, for possessing people with evil spirits and for temptation. Some will even go so far as to lay famine or war or natural disaster at the feet of Satan. In the end though the Christian world view leaves only one being responsible for everything – God. God can choose to alter the course of anything or anyone and the free will defense typically used by Christians actually leaves Christianity very little wiggle room.

In this hub I want to look again at the idea of free will and look at the idea that God is moral, just and heroic especially in his ultimate defeat of Satan that Christians deem a praise-worthy triumph.

from the movie Tremors
from the movie Tremors

Perfection Valley

So why does the existence of free will leave Christianity with very little wiggle room? It has to do with the fact that, according to Christians, God is perfect, all knowing, all powerful and all loving. Before the creation of life God is presumed to be alone, a perfect being all by himself in a perfect emptiness, or perhaps he's already created his Heavenly realm and simply has no one to share it with.

God begins to create living beings, beings which are, again, presumably perfect just as God is, though less powerful than God to be sure. One might argue that having less power than God, or less knowledge, is itself an imperfection, since God is the standard of perfection to begin with. I won't even go that far, I'll skip to the creation of Lucifer and the other angels.

Whether or not angels possess free will is not answered in the Bible outright though from Lucifer's actions it appears they did. It would appear that God created angels with the ability to disobey him. In the Christian context free will seems to refer to the power to defy God's will or simply as having a choice between whether to serve God or not. So the angels God created appear to have free will.

Given that they HAVE the ability to disobey God it is inevitable that they will. To some readers this may seem like a re-tread of earlier content but believe it or not I am still getting comments and hearing arguments from theists that involve the idea that human beings were created perfect and simply chose to disobey God.

Apparently it is lost on some that free will itself is an imperfection. I have been consistently told by Christians that God didn't want to create robots, or simply make copies of himself, but that he wanted beings that would love and worship him by their own choice. The problem with this is that, according to these same Christians, God is permitted to punish people for not wanting to love him. So God wants you to have the freedom to choose NOT to love him BUT exercising that freedom is strictly forbidden.

If you walked onto a sales lot and were told that if you didn't buy a car your knees would be broken that wouldn't exactly be a free choice now would it? Yet this is exactly how the God of the Bible operates and how the vast majority of Christian doctrine continues to portray the situation. You will choose to love God or else you will be punished for exercising your ability to choose differently.

If this version of God truly had any UNCONDITIONAL love whatsoever than those who disobeyed or disbelieved would not be punished, they would be rewarded along with the rest. After all why bother creating beings capable of holding their own opinions, forming their own moral codes or having their own goals if in the end you will punish them for conforming to their own individuality? If you are going to allow them to all have their own thoughts than why are you demanding that all their thoughts be clones of your own? To the astute observer it would seem the God of Christianity DID want robots and accidentally created beings capable of thinking for themselves.

I've seen this posted on facebook
I've seen this posted on facebook

Ignore for Santans

Lucifer is the first sinner to ever exist, the first being in which free will back-fired for God. According to many Christian's Satan's rebellion from God, his pride, was the first true evil, the first sin. Lucifer was second in power and authority only to God himself but that's sort of an arbitrary distinction as God is all-powerful. No matter how much majesty and power God bestowed upon his favorite angel Lucifer would still be immensely weaker than God. So why is it that Christians seem to think that God is going to win some VICTORY over Satan?

Many millions of Christians believe that there will be a final battle, a final fight between the dragon Lucifer, or Satan, and their God. God, they believe, will ultimately prevail and go on to judge the living and the dead afterward while Lucifer and his cohorts are cast into a Lake of Fire. Yet God's victory seems like a forgone conclusion that anyone could predict. An all-powerful being cannot lose and cannot fail.

Satan is supposedly out tempting the faithful, possessing folks with his evil spirits and setting the stage for the Beast. So Satan has not yet been defeated only because God has chosen not to defeat him. This is another act of needless negligence, and arguably evil, from the Biblical God. Satan is, according to many, doing untold damage. Not only is Satan leading people astray and putting their souls in danger of eternal hellfire but many see the clawed hands of Satan causing war, famine, death and pestilence.


Super Heroes and God

Imagine that Superman is tracking down a mass murderer. The murderer isn't a supervillain with any powers, but a fairly ordinary man who just happens to be doing some very evil things. Superman manages to find the murderer but decides to let him kill some more, allowing the killer to grow more notorious and wrack up a bigger body count will make it so that when Superman finally does make the arrest he gets far more accolades from the public. Indeed the longer Superman waits to catch the guy, and the more effort it looks like superman is putting into the endeavor, the more dramatic and victorious it will all seem when at last the man is brought to justice.

Ultimately the murderer doesn't stand a chance in a fight with Superman. The last son of Krypton would tear apart the murderer in a fight and could easily tear the man limb from limb. Yet when at last he does confront the man Superman feigns being hurt as the criminal slashes at superman with an obviously useless weapon. Like a wrestling performer pretending to be hurt in the ring to play up the drama Superman lets the fight drag on for a long time before finally crushing the pathetic man with a single punch that nearly kills him.

To make matters worse it is discovered that Superman knew the man for years and in fact knew that the killer was dangerous and was planning on committing murder even before the first victim was killed. Superman could have stopped the man before anyone was hurt and decided not to.

Does superman deserve the credit for bringing the man to justice? Maybe, but he also deserves some of the blame for the misdeeds of the killer. Superman has also shown himself to be a giant asshole. Not only did he allow the killer's body count to grow but he pretended that there was a snowball's chance in hell that the murderer would win in a fight. He made himself look good by winning a fight that he could have ended non-violently.

This is exactly what God is doing in the Bible, biding his time before Satan's ultimate defeat. Christians seem to eat this all up, singing God's praises and looking forward to the day when they are all in Heaven and Satan is at last defeated. Or perhaps, as some say, Satan is already defeated and is now just awaiting judgment. The point is that there isn't some grandiose fight being fought here, no arch-rivalry. Satan is not the Yang to God's Yin. The fight couldn't be more one-sided. The victory is petty at best as an all-powerful being that could undo the Universe with a single command pretends he's hot shit because he can defeat a weakling villain that he helped create.

Indeed that is the ultimate irony of offering any praises to God at all or the ludicrous idea that an all-powerful being would DEMAND praises or require them to begin with. Why are you celebrating the victory of a God who cannot lose or praising the power of a God who did nothing meritorious to earn his power and does nothing meritorious with his power? Children starve to death and die of disease, wars and violence ravage the world and natural disasters strike even the most vulnerable and innocent amongst us.

Does Superman let criminals and villains run amok hiding behind the childish idea that their “free will” prevents him from intervening? Do even ordinary policemen give up their attempts to bring people to justice on the same basis? If fictional comic book heroes and ordinary men and women in the world today are doing more heroic things than God why all the worship?

Jesus Effing Christ

What's my point here? My point is that God has done nothing worthy of praise. Even if we count the creation of life and the Universe God appears to have mucked that up by adding free will and therefore guaranteeing the existence of sin. Plus God damned his own creation after the Fall, so he immediately ruined everything he worked so hard to create. Many Christians will say that God sent Jesus to save them and that's why he deserves praise.

But what is Jesus saving you from? Remember the car salesman analogy? Jesus is saving you from a punishment that God is threatening you with for the act of not accepting his “free gift” of salvation. Not only does this make Salvation a false choice but it also means that God is saving you from himself. Calling Salvation a free gift is also absurd, since you must serve God in order to be saved. Permanent submission to the will of another being is not freedom, it's the exact opposite.

Or perhaps Christians will argue that God only dishes out justice after we are dead. Of course no one with a decent amount of empathy could argue that eternal hellfire is ever a JUST punishment anymore than it would be just for Superman to decapitate common criminals with his heat vision. This idea violates numerous Biblical stories in which God intervenes on people's behalves. God's revenge against Pharaoh may have taken generations and generations of enslavement but when it hit it was horrific and brutal and Pharaoh was still alive and well. Furthermore if God is not willing to do heroic deeds or give doses of justice until the hereafter than what is the point of prayer for healing or assistance of any kind?

The deeds of a God Without Limits

So if the best thing God ever did is to save you from his own wrath what does that say about God? Actions speak louder than words and if we're going to judge the Biblical God by his actions than what conclusions can we draw? We're talking about a God that Christians claim is all-powerful and all-knowing, a God who can do no wrong either morally or through simple failure. So, if God is so perfect, how can there be anything wrong AT ALL?

Christians will claim that the defect is in us, in human beings, but there can be no defect present in us by accident. The only way human beings can be defective in the Christian world-view is by DESIGN. And how can a God punish people he designed to be flawed when those flaws realize themselves? If we are designed to be imperfect than we cannot be expected to be perfect. Christianity, in any of its forms, is logically broken, bereft of any evidence and morally bankrupt.

The Bible certainly doesn't describe what Christians claim to believe in, it's God isn't even consistent with what they believe about him and that speaks volumes. Ultimately it isn't Satan that God - or rather God's followers - have to worry about, it's reason, logic, empathy and intelligence. For if we ever became like God, gaining such forbidden knowledge, we'd realize he doesn't exist.

More on the deeds of God, from Youtuber Underlings

Another great analogy for Christianity

If we put the deeds of Yahweh in the hands of Superman and Batman

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      What about the many people who fail to get healed? If theres a God who is answering prayers and healing then He is doing an uneven, lousy job. This God's track record is pitiful. Even when a healing takes place, how do we know its a miracle? Sometimes the body is able to heal on its own naturally whether or not we pray. I had a beloved aunt who was a Christian and a good person who was afflicted with cancer for almost 22 years before dying from it. A believer will say that it was a miracle that she survived so long. Not necessarily. She survived so long due to intense chemotherapy and a strict diet. My poor father had a history of heart disease. He survived 30 years before dying from it. Was it a miracle he survived so long? No. He survived because he received medical care at quality hospitals and he went through surgery and he took special medication and had a pacemaker and he went on a strict diet and because he was taken good care of by his family. Me and my family helped him to survive that long and medication and hospitals helped him to survive that long. If we had neglected medical care and expected a miracle from God to heal him, then he would have been dead with the first heart attack many years ago. I thank the medications and I thank the doctors for healing my father. Not God. This absentee landlord for a God allows us to suffer and die by one horrible fate or another. For every person this God heals, He allows ten million others to suffer and die. He has a miserable track record for healing. An F minus. A failing grade. Because many people are unable to accept that there is no God and that we are alone in the universe, so we choose to believe in a cruel, stupid, insane, negligent, deadbeat, incompetent, absentee landlord for a God which is the Bible God. I agree with Art Black when he says that the Christian God is an evil bastard. Religious folks worship a cruel God and most of them dont know it except for maybe hardcore Calvinists. The Calvinist God is the cruelest being imaginable. Religious folks worship evil and most of them dont know it. Their own Bible says that God creates evil and inflicts evil. This unfair, unwise, unkind, unreasoning, unforgiving, cruel God ensnared humanity with this experiment with free will and Adam and Eve and allows their sin to be passed on to all future unborn humans and refuses to forgive them and goes right ahead with cursing and punishing the entire world for the sin of two people. Cruel merciless unreasoning bastard. A clam has more sense than this God. This Good cannot keep His own commandment Thou shalt not kill. Bungle, goof, dunce, idiot, screwup. I have to blush for shame at the cruelty, insanity, stupidity, incompetence, and negligence of this God. Children of a lesser God? Its more like Children of a stupid God. This God is the original Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde with a split personality or bipolar personality which can be seen in His behavior in the Bible, and which can be seen in the Nature He created(the same God who created roses also created the ebola virus), and which can be seen in the human beings He made. He was in Mr. Hyde mode when He cursed and punished the entire world for the sin of two people, Adam and Eve, and He was in Mr. Hyde mode when He created ebola, cancer, tooth decay, stonefish(a venomous fish with an unimaginably painful sting), centipedes, ticks, tsunamis, and physical deformities. The Mr. Hyde in Him continues to allow suffering and evil and He continues to neglect His creation. Cruelty and negligence are His ways and yet He expects us all to love Him and worship Him and He expects us all to have blind faith and blind trust. Hes an irresponsible, negligent, egomaniacal, narcississtic, cruel bastard. He allows the Devil to tamper, screw, corrupt, and ruin His creation. He has abdicated the world to the Devil. Is there a bigger embarrassment than this? Is there a bigger screwup than this God? Is there a bigger crime than this? Its disgraceful behavior for a God. This God is a bigger screwup than Charles Manson. Charles Manson is more moral and has more reasoning than this Bible God. This Bible God is in the same rogue's gallery as Chtulhu, Zeus, Poseidon, Aries, Shiva, and Kali all of which have a cruel, violent side. Its pitiful and embarrassing.

    • artblack01 profile image

      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      Lybrah, christmas is not a christian holiday and many atheists do celebrate it.

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      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Even though you guys don't believe and have no reason to celebrate...Merry Christmas anyway.

      ...except you, AustinStar

    • Titen-Sxull profile image
      Author

      Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again

      "Just because your asthma and acid reflux went away, that doesn't mean anything and it wasn't my point."

      No, it was MY POINT and it flew right over your head. What would you have done if your body had not healed? You would have probably prayed harder right, a little more fervently perhaps and then just shrugged your shoulders and said "Its in God's hands now". Meaning that unless the problem became so severe you had to seek emergency medical attention God would have received the credit for healing it even if it had gone away on its own like my problems did. It's called confirmation bias. In the scenario you would consider it the work of God whether it was or not.

      "There is no reincarnation in Buddhism--you're thinking of hinduism."

      You're half-right, the version of reincarnation I described is more indicative of hinduism, however Buddhism does contain reincarnation, though not all forms of it do. The most famous of course is the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Buddhists. I remember watching a documentary on the subject where when they suspect a child in a nearby village of being the reincarnation of a Lama or other spiritual leader they bring that persons old objects before the child along with objects that deceased leader did not own, and if the child chooses to pick up and use the objects of the deceased person that is a sign that they are indeed the reincarnation. Again this practice falls victim to the same confirmation bias as your prayer example.

      "you're going to have feelings of despair and no one is going to care."

      You do understand that I don't believe in hell or your God right? You may as well tell me that Captain Hook is coming to kidnap me and Peter Pan won't be there to save me. To you it seems very real, but to me it's obvious fiction, and fiction only scares you when you suspend your disbelief, like when immersed in a good book or a scary movie.

      "I am not worried about other gods because I know those do not exist."

      Right. So now you know why I am not worried about your God.

      "no one believes in that or has for thousands of years"

      Right, because Christianity replaced it, and some day something will replace that. Folks like me are hoping that the something that replaces religion isn't just another religion.

      And the reason I keep bringing it up is because you keep missing the parallels. You have just as much reason to believe that Zeus is actually real as you do to believe that Jesus is actually real but you choose to have faith in Jesus. You don't have a reason. You don't have evidence. All you have is faith, and that makes it completely arbitrary and entirely non-contingent on whether or not your beliefs are actually true. Faith of that kind is intellectually dishonest and self-deceptive by nature.

      Don't you care even a little about whether or not what you believe is actually real? Don't you understand that faith CANNOT help you determine reality from fantasy? Repeating to yourself over and over that you've already found the truth has to become unconvincing after a while right?

      I left Christianity because of a search for the truth, I wouldn't pretend to have the whole truth yet, if such a thing is even humanly possible. Gods, aliens, ghosts, all of it might still be real, the difference between a skeptic and a believer is that I'm not going to delude myself, be emotionally manipulated or degrade my own intellect in order to believe something, even and ESPECIALLY if its something I want to believe.

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      Karthik Kashyap 3 years ago from India

      Moreover.. The god himself says, "I am a jealous god".. Really? If that god was truly divine, why would he fall into human emotions of cruelty and jealousy? Moreover, it is funny that a god who "created the heaven and earth in 7 days" was ignorant about a human's sin? And the creation of the "heaven and earth" itself sounds like a children's story. Any person in the right mind would laugh at it. The "omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent" god gets offended easily just because someone doesn't follow his iron line? Wow!! All I see is a egoistic human behaviour in that god.

      And all these are just the beginning of Bible. Any sane person can point out the countless amount of rubbish being written in Bible. I agree that all religious books are filled with stories. But, at least in these books, stories were created around certain facts. But, believing in the Bible or any monotheistic religious books verbatim is the heights of stupidity.

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      The only way to know what is true and real is to follow the evidence and accept whatever the evidence showed. If the evidence showed that the god of the bible were true I would stop being an atheist right now and become a christian again, but in all my 20 years of research I found that it doesn't. I care about what is true more than the empty promise of a god who in the bible has shown more cruelty to mankind all for eating a fruit he provided, and since he is all knowing knew that they would eat it, and therefore causing and creating more suffering than was necessary for his creation all just so we would have free will to follow him without question which is a direct contradiction to the idea of free will.

    • artblack01 profile image

      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      The only way to know what is true and real is to follow the evidence and accept whatever the evidence showed. If the evidence showed that the god of the bible were true I would stop being an atheist right now and become a christian again, but in all my 20 years of research I found that it doesn't. I care about what is true more than the empty promise of a god who in the bible has shown more cruelty to mankind all for eating a fruit he provided, and since he is all knowing knew that they would eat it, and therefore causing and creating more suffering than was necessary for his creation all just so we would have free will to follow him without question which is a direct contradiction to the idea of free will.

      I take it back, even if I found out that the god of the bible were real I would not become a christian because the god of the bible is an evil murderous bastard who doesn't desrve followers.

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      Embracing a cruel God who tortures billions of people in unimaginably horrifying ways makes a cruel person. Fundamentalists dont see the cruelty and evil in the God they worship and I point out again, "I create evil", Isahia chapter 45, verse 7, King James Bible, where God describes Himself. If He created evil, then He is at least partly to blame for human evil and sin. He is punishing us for being imperfect, flawed humans. How can He expect perfection and sinlessness from naturally imperfect, sinful creatures? He created us evil or flawed or allowed it and then He punishes us for His own failure and incompetence. He is punishing us for being what He made us to be and He is punishing us for being what Nature has made us to be and He is punishing us for Adam and Eve's sin and He is punishing us for Satan's sin. Can someone say insane? An insane, stupid, cruel God is unfit to judge us. All this egomaniacal, narcississtic, selfish, self centered,self focused, tyrannical God cares about is His own ego and for people to worship Him. So screw everything else and screw everyone else and just grovel and worship this egomaniacal God and become a religious fanatic like Jesus and pluck out your eyes and cut off your hands(more stupidity and insanity) and carry a cross and become a total masochist like Jesus since thus earthly life doesnt count. What is heaven going to be like? An eternal church service with eternal hymn singing and harp playing? Even if one makes it to heaven, theres a high chance that loved ones wont make it to heaven but will end up in hell for one reason or another. They didnt believe the Bible literally? Then they are going to hell. They didnt lut God and Jesus first in their life? Then they are going to hell. They failed to correctly interpret the Bible(its impossible for anyone to interpret such a vague, ambiguous, unclear book with so many contradictions which have caused centuries of disagreement, division and confusion which is painfully embarrassing), and if they fail to belong to the true Church( if there is such a thing) then its hell. And all agnostics, atheists, muslims, and pagan religions are automatically doomed to hell regardless of whether they were good or bad people. How then could heaven be a place of perfect happiness, joy, and love when our loved ones wont be there but will instead be roasting like charcoals forever in hell and being tortured in other monstrously sick, cruel, disgusting, horrifying ways? Are those in heaven no longer going to care about their loved ones who didnt make it into heaven? Or do those in heaven just forget or have no memory of their earthly loved ones who didnt make it into heaven? What about pets? If our beloved pets are not in heaven, then how could pet lovers be happy? I have had beloved dogs, small parrots, pigeons, a small dove, anole lizards, and cats and I love them more than anything else. I cannot be totally happy in heaven without my beloved pets. Theres not a word in the Bible about animals or pets in heaven. Many religious folks say animals and pets dont have a soul and dont have an afterlife and therefore there is no heaven for them. Only man has afterlife because only humans were made in God's image. This is silly reasoning and silly logic. Why does something have to be made in God's image to qualify in having an afterlife? There are many petlovers around the world. Just because the Bible authors werent interested in pets doesnt mean that future generations would not be interested. How ignorant to assume that there would be no people who desire an afterlife with their beloved pets. The Bible authors show their ignorance. My beloved pets are the most important things in the world to me and I have to have them in the afterlife. If God doesnt care about pets and doesnt desire them in heaven then at least bring our pets to life for us petowners. God may not care about pets but I care. At least do it for me and for other petowners. I cannot be happy without my beloved pets and I cannot be happy without my beloved family. I personally prefer to believe in Spiritualism and Theosophy in the Astral planes of existence. The 6th Astral plane is where I would be happiest. A park like setting with tropical scenery with my pets and with my family would make me happy. Of course its also important that the afterlife should have no diseases, no intense cold and no intense heat, no venomous pests, no ticks, no mosquitoes, no pollution, no nasty people, no toil, no aging, and no death. If I cant have paradise in this earthly life, then let me have it for the afterlife. Fundamentalist Christians point out that anything thats not in the Bible is Satanic or demonic deceptions to deceive people and lead them away from God and Jesus. So Spiritualism and Theosophy are labeled as Satanic or demonic deceptions and every other unexplained phenomena such as out of body experiences, near death experiences, ESP, ghosts, hauntings, poltergeists, fairies, aliens, telekinesis, yoga, reincarnation, seances, levitation, channeling,etc are all Satan and demons manipulating and deceiving people. Thats very unfortunate because it closes off many interesting possibilities.

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      Karthik Kashyap 3 years ago from India

      Lybrah: Ever heard of faith healing? You don't need to have faith in 'Jesus' for that. One can believe in a piece of paper as god and can be healed. It is your own subconscious mind that heals you. Of course, a religious person can believe otherwise. What you believe doesn't change the facts.

      Regarding your belief that other gods don't exist, that is exactly what I am talking about. Christians do not have the capacity to rationalize anything. It is like saying, earth is the only planet in the universe. The Church has systematically brain washed all Christians to believe that there is only one god and that is Jesus. Through deceit and fear, they have made you believe that Jesus actually existed and he is the only god's son. Your Bible itself is a hotch-potch and a mixture of every other ancient religious text, albeit distorted and corrupted. Unfortunately, you will never know that because reading any other text is banned in Christianity, and you will be termed heretic. And that is the problem with every religious person. Any religious person has the fear that god will punish him if he doesn't follow what has been written in the religious book or follow the religious leader says.

      If you came out of the shell of Christianity, you would see a bigger world out there. Jesus may have been "god's son" only for Christians, but not for the entire world. You are entitled to be the 'frog in the well' who thinks that the well is the entire universe. No other religion in the world believes that Jesus was god's son (of course, there are new age idiots who say that there is only one god). Truth be told, every fundamental religious person thinks that his god is the only god.

    • artblack01 profile image

      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      Jesus never existed, he is a fiction. And the empty threats of hell and empty promises of heaven mean nothing in light of reality. You can feel good about your fantasy god but that is all you and not god, you can have it. No one needs it.

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      Lybrah 3 years ago

      I believe that God cured me because I specifically prayed for that part of my body to heal. Just because your asthma and acid reflux went away, that doesn't mean anything and it wasn't my point.

      There is no reincarnation in Buddhism--you're thinking of hinduism.

      Life without God may seem fine to you now, but when God withdraws His light from you when he sends you to hell, you're going to have feelings of despair and no one is going to care.

      I am not worried about other gods because I know those do not exist. There is no Zeus, no Allah, just Jesus. Stop bringing up Greek mythology, no one believes in that or has for thousands of years. But my God has been around and been consistent.

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      I'd believe in batman before I'd believe in a god, batman is way more possible.

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      Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again

      1) Its both actually. Either obey God or the worst torment imaginable will befall you. Such an absurdly unreal and patently unjust punishment can only be called a form of psychic bullying, and to tell impressionable children that Hell is real and they will go there if they are disobedient or disbelieving is potentially a form of mental abuse.

      2). I don't remember saying America was a Christian nation. But the culture of the Western world is predominantly Christian. It's why someone born in Japan is likely to practice Shinto while someone born in India might practice hinduism or buddhism, those are the religions that their parents or other members of their society are likely to reinforce in their minds. Also, Free Masonry isn't a religion unto itself, the word you're looking for is Deism.

      3) Why do you think life is hopeless without God?

      4) And you think that without God we should be hopeless? Listen to what you just said. Human beings are all evil and deserve to go to Hell. That's the most hopeless thing I've ever heard. Human beings aren't perfect, but we have an immense capacity for empathy and morality, not to mention reason. Also, as I've established before God would ultimately have to be responsible for the existence of sin and evil. You believe that Adam and Eve were created perfect but corrupted by original sin yes? Well who was it that gave them the freedom to do so and planted the tree right in the middle of the Garden, that'd be God. Free Will, in that scenario, is an imperfection as it creates the potential and thus inevitability of sin corrupting the world. You are willing to condemn every one of your fellow human beings to Hell, because some ancient naked people ate a piece of fruit, that's delusional nonsense.

      5) Actually you do, if any of the other religions of the world turn out to be true. You may be destined for Heaven in Christianity, but you're going straight to the underworld in Greek religion, and probably will be reincarnated as an antelope or an earthworm if this were Buddhism. In many forms of Buddhism you are reincarnated until reaching enlightenment. So good luck explaining to all those other gods if they turn out to be real.

      6) Well than I guess God healed my ingrown toenails too Lybrah, because I used to have a problem with those when I was younger, and you know I haven't had that in years. And the asthma I had as a child, why that's gone too... and the acid reflux that plagued me for years. Oh wait, no, I was an atheist by the time those problems went away. Believing doesn't make it real, and neither does wanting it to be true, that's why faith is intellectually empty and self-deceptive by its very nature, the placebo effect in action.

    • artblack01 profile image

      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      Lybrah, you say that you have nothing to lose by being wrong about god? But what if you are not wrong about god but wrong about which god? There are over 100 religions that existed before the christian ones, the hindu religion is not the oldest but the oldest religion still practiced today. Even older than the jewish one. And what about the others before the jewish ones, what if the vikings were right or the greek gods? Or the egyptian ones all older than the the jewish ones. In fact the jews were given their god by the early egytians. The only way to know the truth about anything is to find the evidence for it and to question even that. Youcan have your silly religion, religion is a scam and you are the fools for falling for it. The truth does set you free, free from the the ignorance and slavery and evil of religion. The christian religion is one of the most evil, up until the salem witch trials christianity was responsible for killing innocent people for being witches since its inception. The bible is full of immoral and evil deeds prescribed by the god of it. Religion scams people into believing stupid things and doing evil deeds in the name of its god. I feel very sorry for those that believecsuch stupid fantasies and do not understand the nature of peopke and the universe but seek to let scam artists tell tgem what their fantasies want and write it in books that persist for thousands of years because they are too stupid and too scared to actually study the nature of things.

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      Karthik Kashyap 3 years ago from India

      God's son?? What a load of horse crap!!! How many Christians even know that Christmas is the celebration of the moving of sun from the Tropic of Capricorn (aka winter solstice) towards the northern hemisphere?? Probably ZERO!! All the fundamental Christians will say is "Oh NO!!! You are a Satanist (or) you are a fool to believe it".

      Most fundamental Christians behave as if they heard Bible from the God's mouth himself. If not, they believe that priests, bishops and popes are god's chosen men.. Seriously?? There is one more species which has that mentality.. Even the non-existent Jesus openly said that.. Have you heard of the animal called 'sheep' and the moron who leads them, who is called a 'shepherd'?? Basically, sheep don't have the "brains" to think for themselves. They are very easily led to wherever the shepherd leads them.

      That is the problem with a fundamental Christian. Every book other than Bible is outlawed in Christianity. That is what happened in the medieval ages. Free thinkers were tortured and burned alive in the name of witch-craft, devil worshipers, heretics and what not. Unfortunately, that mentality is still not gone from their minds. Fundamental Christians have become a laughing stock due to their zombie-like thinking (yes, zombies cannot think). I have had conversations with so many fundamental Christians. It is as if, all the words that come from a Christian's mouth is just Bible. Looks like all the fundamental Christians sold their brains in the Sunday school in exchange of the Bible. Please, for heaven's sake, there is a bigger world than Bible!!

      Peace and Love!!

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      Both God and Satan screwed the world if you read the Bible objectively. God's stupidity is the Devil's opportunity. Both God and Satan screwed humanity and screwed the world with Adam and Eve's sin. Both orchestrated it. God here is totally unreasoning, unfair, unkind, unforgiving, and cruel. God refuses to forgive Adam and Eve and refuses to give them a second chance. In refusing to forgive Adam and Eve, not only does He trash Adam and Eve but He trashes and ruins all of future humanity and He trashes and ruins the rest of creation. This God has no common sense, He has no reasoning, and He does not know how to forgive. Merciless cruel bastard. He punishes and neglects, punishes and neglects. Cruelty and negligence are His ways. Evil and suffering abounds and the Devil flourishes and the Devil and evil are winning and we have a God who allows it. Im embarrassed, disgusted, and disappointed with this God. Hopeless. Absolutely hopeless. The world is a hellhole and horror movie and I live in endless fear.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      People are intrinsically evil and deserve to be in hell, says Lybrah. The first part of that statement is true but not the second part. Not all of us deserve hell. As i have written many many times before we dont have total free will to choose either evil or good. And God was just stupid, unfair, unwise, insane, and cruel to allow Adam and Eve's sin to be passed on to all future unborn humans. Everyone should be born with a fresh clean slate and not have to be born tainted with the original sin of Adam and Eve's sin. And its cruel, unfair, unkind, insane, unloving, and stupid for God to curse and punish His entire creation with violence, diseases, mass starvation, pollution, centipedes, venomous spiders, venomous snakes, centipedes, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, death, etc. Cruelty is the Bible God's forte. Irrational, indiscriminate, blind, reckless, stupid cruelty is all this God knows how to do. Yes people are evil and sinful and need to be punished but there are more merciful, humane, intelligent, and constructive ways to punish human sin than to burn them in fire forever and subject them to being buried alive forever inside a claustrophobic, coffin like environment forever and having demons mutilate and slice them forever. Come on. The concept of an eternal torture chamber as described by the Bible and as described by Fundamentalists is cruelty and sadism on steroids. Its beyond cruel, its beyond disgusting, its beyond insanity, its beyond stupidity, its beyond horrific. It makes God into a cruel, sadistic, fiendish, malevolent monster whose cruelty and wrath is forever. And if all these people are headed to hell then thats a win for Satan and Jesus Christ's mission to save us was largely a failure and the Good News Gospel becomes the Bad News Gospel. There are other options which are open to God besides torturing people forever in unimaginably horrifying ways forever. Unfortunately this God doesnt know how to manage His creation in an intelligent, constructive, merciful, humane manner. No. All He knows how to do is cruelty and negligence. Why cant God just change human nature as we sleep and change our minds and change our hearts? Is that too much to ask? Apparently yes. He has no intelligent, constructive, merciful, humane solution to offer us and allows us to remain in our sins, defects, failures, and allows us to suffer and die. This is not love. This is not mercifulness. This is not wisdom. This is not morality. This is not even sane. This God is a cruel, incompetent, insane, unreasoning, negligent ass. No common sense and no reasoning. Im very angry and disgusted with this God. Criminal cruelty, criminal negligence, criminal incompetence, criminal stupidity, criminal insanity. WHAT A DUNCE WE HAVE FOR A GOD. I can picture Satan laughing at this God and laughing at humanity and saying to himself, "I managed to fuck up humanity and I managed to fuck up the whole creation and Ive created a hell on earth and I created a vastly worse hell lasting forever for billions of people and all this just because I tricked two ignorant people into eating forbidden fruit." Not even Laurel and Hardy and not even the 3 Stooges are as stupid as rhe Bible God and not even Charles Manson is as insane as the Bible God and not even Hitler is as cruel. So I have to be born a sinner and I have to suffer and die anx Im in danger of going to hell because Adam and Eve ate a forbidden pear thousands of years BEFORE I was even born. Its fucking unfair, cruel, insane, and stupid. Its a fucking travesty. This is the stupidity and insanity taught by our religion and it shows a cruel, insane, immoral, stupid, negligent, incompetent God. God versus Satan? Satan has been winning all along and Satan has been ruling the world all along because we have a cruel, stupid, insane, incompetent, negligent, deadbeat, absentee landlord for a God who cant do much of anything right and who chooses to neglect His creation. Its more than embarrassing. Its a crime. The Devil and evil are winning. Its a lost cause.

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      Lybrah 3 years ago

      1. It's not psychic bullying, it's a warning.

      2. America is NOT a Christian nation. Never was. George Washington and all them were Free Masons.

      3. I don't believe it because of societal purposes, I believe it for myself. Because for me, separation from God would be the worst thing imaginable. It's not even about being on fire for eternity, it's all that sadness and hopelessness.

      4. For the hundredth time, people are intrinsically EVIL and deserve to be in hell. Nothing else we can do will make it right with God.

      5. I've got nothing to lose by believing. If God is not real, then I will just be dead. But if He is real, then I will be safe for believing. Whereas you, on the other hand, will have something to worry about should you die and God turns out to be real...

      6. You're right about me not be able to prove anything to you. It's all about faith. But I can tell you that God has healed my jaw (I used to really have bad TMJ). Well, anyway...it's all about Faith.

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      Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again

      Of course Christianity is a real thing. It's supernatural claims on the other hand have never been proved. Lybrah, in all the time you've been following my writing here on hubpages you've presented a grand total of NO evidence supporting the supernatural claims of Christianity. In all of the discussions, debates, and arguments I've had with Christians over the years no one has ever presented a single shred of evidence for anything supernatural. So then what reason, other than using blind faith to delude yourself into believing it, is there to believe ANY of the claims of Christianity.

      Your response might as well be: Right, Hercules worship is different, it's real, and it's about Zeus' son.

      There is nothing special about the claims of Christianity that sets it apart as more likely to be true than some other religion and seeing as how you cannot establish its truth and must instead rely on faith I'm left with no reason at all to believe it. Sure you could believe it for subjective, societal or cultural pressure reasons but then that's the same as liking a certain type of music because its "what you were raised with". Of course in this case you are threatened with eternal torment for deciding not to believe, and last I checked taste in movies and music don't generally have that level of psychic bullying.

      So what we have are a set of myths, supernatural stories, moral teachings and superstitions that are culturally reinforced by a predominantly Christian culture here in America, further reinforced by being spouted by perceived authority figures (parents, teachers, priests, politicians, etc), further reinforced by guilt, shame or being told you are a sinner deserving of punishment simply for being born human with desires, and of course the punishment itself, a horrific form of supernatural torture that lasts eternity. Where exactly is the truth at the center of Christianity Lybrah? Because none of what I just mentioned sounds like the way a true religion would operate.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      I'll say it again. Science has not explained away the supernatural and has not disproved the supernatural. It certainly hasnt disproved it to me. Maybe it has disproved it to you but not for me. You cannot disprove what you dont know. You cannot disprove that which is cryptic and unseen. I would love to know the answers to many mysteries but sadly its impossible to know. It seems as if certain things such as God, the Devil, the afterlife, Dinosaurs, oxygen levels in earth's remote geological past, and unexplained phenomena such as ESP, telekinesis, poltergeists, ghosts, hauntings, spirit possession, ley lines, the Lochness monster, the Mokele-mbembe(a Dinosaur-like cryptid in the African Congo), the Mono-Grande(a bipedal, unknown ape like creature in South American jungles) out of body experiences, near death experiences,etc are forever going to remain unknowable mysteries which can neither be proven and which can neither be disproven. Despite what Art Black says, science has not disproven any of these things. I choose to say I dont know.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      Art Black you are wrong when you say the supernatural has been disproven. No it hasnt. Neither has it been proved. I choose to say I dont know. There is no conclusive evidence one way or the other between believers and unbelievers. The believers havent proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are right and the unbelievers havent proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are right. NOBODY really knows. You dont know, I dont know, the religious folks dont know, and the atheists dont know. Even with all the knowledge and technology out there today there are still many unknown and unexplainable mysteries. All we have are different beliefs, claims, and theories. What makes one right and another wrong? Let me give just one example. You claim to be a student of science. I am not. But this science I do know. Just as different religions disagree with eachother(Christianity and the Bible has caused more disagreement, division, and confusion, sadly and embarrassingly), so too different scientists also disagree with eachother. Thats right. Different scientists disagree with eachother. Let me give a few examples. Some scientists believe Dinosaurs were cold blooded and no more intelligent than modern day Reptiles such as snakes. Other scientists say that many Dinosaurs were warm blooded and as intelligent as cats. So who is right? Nobody knows. Another topic which different scientists disagree with eachother is the amount of oxygen in earth's atmosphere in remote prehistoric times. Planet earth is said to be 4.6 billion years old. During the Precambrian era, from 4.6 billion to 545 million years ago, oxygen levels were either anaerobic or hypoxic say most scientists. Now modern oxygen levels are 21 percent. The question and mystery is when did oxygen levels become breathable for the first time in earth's history? Different scientists have reached many different dates. Some say that oxygen levels became breathable for the first time 350 million years ago, during the Carboniferous period, while others say it was 400 million years ago during the Devonian period, while others say it was 430 million years ago during the Silurian period, while others say it was 500 million years ago during the Cambrian period, while others say it was 800 million years ago during the late Precambrian era, and others say the atmosphere was breathable as long ago as 1.8 billion years ago during the middle Precambrian era. Whew. Thats a wide discrepancy dont you think? So who is right or who is the closest to the truth? No one knows. These are all SCIENTISTS who are disagreeing with eachother. One guy thinks the atmosphere became breathable 350 million years ago while another guy thinks its as long ago as 1.8 billion years ago! Now your telling me to believe in science. Im telling you that scientists are disagreeing with eachother. Why should I believe everything blindly that science says when scientists disagree among themselves and when science doesnt have all the answers. When it comes to certain mysteries, nobody really knows shit. Its all personal guesswork, theories, and speculating. My point is we should neither blindly believe and we should neither blindly disbelieve. The world and universe is still full of unknowable mysteries whether we like it or not. And science does not have all the answers whether you like it or not and science has not disproved the supernatural. It may have disproved it to you but it has not disproved it to me. My answer is I dont know.

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      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Right, Christianity is different. It's REAL, and it is about God's Son.

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      Every supernatural phenomenon has been explained away by modern science decades ago. Why do people still believe in it? Because people are stupid. They rationalize that, oh, science refuses to investigate (waste their time) on my supernatual experience (delusion) because they know it might be true (don't want to beat a dead horse by investigating something that has been debunked and dismissed decades ago and is now the parlor trick of scam artists and magicians). Let me tell you that I can recreate every single paranormal or supernatural even, and I don't even need photoshop, or even a computer. Just smoke and mirrors and assistants to play along and pretend to see or hear or even be things.

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      Anonymous, when the evidence shows you that something is false you don't say, "duh, I think it's true," or "duh, its still possible even though the evidence says otherwise" no, you go, well, god and tge supernatural may not be true, but what is. You see, I accept an unknown, I just don't accept an obviously stupid conclusion or a hope or possibility that this obviously stupid false conclusion could be true, when the evidence says otherwise. Knowledge is power, keep following the evidence, not the hope or fear of this really stupid fantasy delusion of a god vs devil comic book drama.

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      Lela 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Oh, but Titen, Christianity is SPECIAL! Cult rules don't apply at any time. We're talking about God's Son Self here. Seriously?

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      Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again

      See, as a member of the cult, and a member of the society that is generally accepting of the cult, you don't see it as a cult, but that's what it is.

      As I'm sure you're aware Lybrah Christians used to be fed to lions by the Romans, they were a cult by definition as they were few in number practicing a new belief system in the midst of a society that worshiped the Roman pantheon of gods. They were seen as trouble-makers, religious deviants, and persecuted.

      Only when a cult becomes a predominant or popular enough thing does it seem normal enough to be labeled as a religion. Take, for example, Mormonism, obviously a cult when it started right? Yet now it is seen as a religion, not a cult. At its core though its beliefs are just as ridiculous and lacking in any evidence as Zeus throwing lightning bolts, Thor wielding the mighty hammer mjolnir, or Jesus being resurrected. Scientology is another one, obviously a cult but fast gaining on the status of a religion. A religion is just a popularized cult.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      Art Black just as religious folks are silly in their presumptuousness so too are atheists. Atheists are just as silly for being certain that no God or no gods exist. Agnostics are wiser for saying I dont know. This is unknown territory we're talking about. I respect your position and it would be nice if you respect mine. Geez. I didnt intend on causing arguments. Different people have different beliefs and different points of view. You're an unbeliever and Lybrah is a Fundamentalist Christian. I dont know what to categorize myself as because Im much too confused. I dont know who or what to believe. Its wrong and closed minded to just assume that God isnt real and the supernatural isnt real. Other people have experienced supernatural phenomena of various kinds. Is that definite proof or definite evidence for a God? No. But it suggests it maybe possible for a God to exist and for a Devil to exist. Do near death experiences definitely prove theres an afterlife? No but it suggests that it maybe possible for an afterlife. My beliefs are anything from Deism to a weakened form of Theism or Deficient Theism or a deficient God or deficient gods. I entertain the possibility of a Devil and demons. I cannot be certain these things are real. While I dont absolutely believe in these things, I also dont disbelieve in them as you do. My position is I dont know. My concept of God or gods is more intelligent and more realistic than the Fundamentalist concept and that of Traditional Theism. Traditional Theism does not and cannot totally jive with reality. The all good, all mighty, all wise, loving, caring, morally perfect, rational, sane, sovereign, merciful God who has things under control doesnt exist. That God is wishful thinking and make believe similar to Santa Claus and his flying reindeer. Theres no way He can be all of these wonderful things when the world is a fucked up hellhole for thousands to millions of years. Which attribute or which attributes are lacking in God? Is it His goodness which is lacking? Maybe He's not rational? Maybe He's not sane? I personally believe He is insane, mentally blind and morally blind. A being who allows thousands to millions of years of pain, suffering, death, and every form of imaginable evil is mentally sick and morally sick. Its a blind God who cannot see His own sins of cruelty and negligence and who cannot see sin in the evil and suffering He allows. This God Himself is a sinner. If He hates sin so much then why doesnt He do something intelligent and constructive about it? Why allow thousands of years of human sin and evil which He supposedly hates so much? Why allow Nature's cruelties and fuckups to continue ad nauseam, ad infinitum? He cannot manage His creation in an intelligent, constructive manner and He cannot manage His creation in a merciful, humane manner. Its pitiful, embarrassing, and disgraceful. Dereliction of duty. We may as well be praying to a tree trunk. Trying to reason with this God is like talking to a brick wall. He has no reasoning. This may explain His disgusting, cruel behavior in much of the Bible and this may explain or partly explain why the world is a fucked up shithole. This God is so remote, aloof, withdrawn, and disconnected He behaves as if He doesnt exist. This God is the original absentee landlord.He allows every kind of shit and horror to happen. I wish there was a different God and one who would care about people and animals and one who is kind and humane, unlike the Bible God. We need a different God because the one we have sucks. This God is a failure and disappointment as all history and prehistory sadly illustrates. Good day.

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      Childish.

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      Lybrah 3 years ago

      Whatever, Artblack. I think you are a fool for not believing it. So there!

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      Religions are the most potent scams ever perpetrated on the human race, and I may respect your need to believe such nonsense but I also think that you are a fool for believing it, as far as not knowing whether or not a god and devil are possible, I'd say with the current evidence that we have collected on our natural world I'll say that for sure it is silly to even be unsure, there is enough evidence for me to say with 100 percent certainty that there is no god or devil. There is no need for a god to exist for anything to exist in or influence our universe. None. And no evidence to support even the remotest possibility of the existence of a god or devil. Enough said, I am done here, thank you and good night.

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      Lybrah 3 years ago

      No, they are not.

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      Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again

      Cults are basically evil anonymous? Well religions are basically just popular cults.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      I understand your point of view. And I question evverything. I dont just believe anyone or anything. There are things which are unknowable and mysterious such as God and Satan, heaven and hell. These things could be lies and fiction as you say or they could be real. There is no evidence one way or the other to prove whether they are false or whether they are real. Its impossible to prove these things and its impossible to disprove these things. One either believes in these things or one disbelieves, or, one can say I dont know. I choose the third option and say I dont know. Thats the smartest option.

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      God is a myth, satan is a myth, heaven and hell are myths.... all fictions used to control or guilt people into exhibiting a desired behavior for the benefit of the religious leaders. To believe in such things is to becone a victim of such scams perpetrated on the human condition. Human nature is such that we are constantly struggling to survive, while those who would strive to scam us into being controlled are the perpetrators of constant human suffering for the sake of power and wealth. How do they scam us? By exploiting our ignorance. How do we overcome this exploitation? By educating ourselves as to the truth of not just the human condition but the workings of the nature of the universe. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Dont trust your feelings, we can delude ourselves into believing that something is true because it makes us feel good to believe such nonsense. Trust the evidence, the facts, leave feelings for human social interactions. But when it comes to finding truth, question everything, questiin even your self, your conclusions and quedtion the things you are told by everyone including the people closest to you. Suffering is a part of human nature, so learn to and help to relieve human suffering, because complaining about it is only causing it to get worse. Be proactive, if you are waiting for a god to help or a devil to stop hurting then its never going to go away and you become part of the problem. No one likes a cry baby whiny adult. Boo fuck hoo. No one. Do something about the problems you perceive, because you do have the power to make things happen, god is a powerless, pittiful, worthless piece of crap fiction and so is the devil. You percieve them as being the cause of your or the worlds problems because we have given these fictional characters power over us by believing in them and there by giving the leaders of these religions (all of them cults) the power to use us to gain power over us, to wage war on the others in power and to perpetrate a constant line of himan suffering.

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      God is a myth, satan is a myth, heaven and hell are myths.... all fictions used to control or guilt people into exhibiting a desired behavior for the benefit of the religious leaders. To believe in such things is to becone a victim of such scams perpetrated on the human condition. Human nature is such that we are constantly struggling to survive, while those who would strive to scam us into being controlled are the perpetrators of constant human suffering for the sake of power and wealth. How do they scam us? By exploiting our ignorance. How do we overcome this exploitation? By educating ourselves as to the truth of not just the human condition but the workings of the nature of the universe. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Dont trust your feelings, we can delude ourselves into believing that something is true because it makes us feel good to believe such nonsense. Trust the evidence, the facts, leave feelings for human social interactions. But when it comes to finding truth, question everything, questiin even your self, your conclusions and quedtion the things you are told by everyone including the people closest to you. Suffering is a part of human nature, so learn to and help to relieve human suffering, because complaining about it is only causing it to get worse. Be proactive, if you are waiting for a god to help or a devil to stop hurting then its never going to go away and you become part of the problem. No one likes a cry baby whiny adult. Boo fuck hoo. No one. Do something about the problems you perceive, because you do have the power to make things happen, god is a powerless, pittiful, worthless piece of crap fiction and so is the devil. You percieve them as being the cause of your or the worlds problems because we have given these fictional characters power over us by believing in them and there by giving the leaders of these religions (all of them cults) the power to use us to gain power over us, to wage war on the others in power and to perpetrate a constant line of himan suffering.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      Who or what is kifflom? I looked it up on the Internet. Its some kind of crackpot cult. So this is reasoning? I dont trust cults. Cults are basically evil.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      You hope one day reason will prevail? So do I. Unfortunately the Bible God has no reasoning. A God who would curse, punish, ruin, and neglect His entire creation for all time because Adam and Eve ate a forbidden pear thousands of years ago has no reasoning and no common sense. If this God had any reasoning then the world would not be the hellhole that it is. He has no reasoning. Mentally challenged, morally challenged, mentally sick, morally sick, mentally blind, morally blind. Eldritch abomination describes this God. Cruelty, carelessness, negligence, incompetence, unreasonableness, unfairness, improvidence, ineptitude, incompetence, stupidity, insanity, and destructiveness are His ways. He knows no better. Just read the Bible objectively and just look at the world around you and you will see what a colossal screwup the Bible God is. Deadbeat. Absentee landlord. Its more than embarrassing. Allowing thousands to millions of years of evils, cruelties, miseries, and horrors is a CRIME. For shame. For shame. Thats why the Devil and evil are winning.

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      Kifflom 3 years ago

      Wow! Thats all I can say after skimming most of this thread. I hope one day reason will prevail.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      So what is the book Lucifer's War saying by Linda Rios Brook? I will read it if I can find it. I just looked it up on the computer for a description. It seems to be blaming Satan and demons for the rampant evil and suffering which goes on in the world. This is also one of my theories if you have been paying attention to my writing. This isnt anything I dont already know and its not anything I havent heard before. There are religious folks who try to deflect or shift the blame for evil from God by throwing it instead on the Devil(Satan) and demons. The Devil defense maybe the best explanation and the most effective theodicy to get God off the hook for having a world full of evil, sin, pain, suffering, and death. Im hoping that God is innocent and its just the Devil and demons who are to blame. This is Dualism. But this still leaves some disturbing unanswered questions. First of all, God created all things including cancer, Satan, and Hitler, according to the Bible. That makes God more culpable. Secondly, God is the one who is inflicting physical torture and killing in nearly the entire Bible. Only in Job does Satan inflict physical torture and killing( which was still under God's permission.) God is supposed to be stronger and smarter than Satan? God is supposed to be sovereign and God is supposed to protect us. WHY then does evil and suffering continue ad nauseam, ad infinitum? Why is Satan still screwing with the creation? How did Satan and demons manage to corrupt, trash, and ruin God's creation? Is this war between God snd Satan still raging thousands or millions or billions of years later? How long will this war continue? Are God and Satan still trading punches with eachother eons later? Something is not right with this picture. Are God and Satan still having a chess game with humans caught in th middle? If God knew Satan's crimes before He created Satan then God is unwise and immoral for creating this certain angel. Dont create this certain angel in the first place if he is going to corrupt and ruin the entire creation. Dont create it. Dont do it. Thats just common sense which this God sadly does not have. Free will, Satan, and Adam and Eve. Its a recipe and the ingredients for disaster, tragedy, travesty, misery, failure and has resulted in a hell on earth and a vastly worse hell lasting forever for billions of people in the next life. If so many people are headed to hell then this is a win for Satan. Prove me wrong. You know Im right. Unless and until this deadbeat for a God starts healing this fucked up world then I have to conclude that the Devil and evil are ruling the world and the Devil and evil are winning. Im not going to live long enough to see God heal this world and put an end to Satan's rulership. This God couldnt heal this world in a billion years. So far the Devil and evil are winning.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      Screw you Lybrah. You have the brain of an infant. Im wrong? Ahem. Just take a look all around you. Evil, sin, suffering, death abounds and your deadbeat for a God allows it. He allows all manner of shit for thousands to millions of years. Nature is fucked up with its diseases, violence, predation, overpopulation, birth defects, deformities, etc, and human nature is fucked up with its selfishness, sociopathy, alienation, crimes, wars, genocides,etc. You choose to ignore reality than thats your business. You Fundamentalists need to get your heads out of your asses and you need to start looking at reality. Take off your Fundamentalist glasses and put on reality glasses if you want to see the truth. When is this God going to put an end to the Devil's evil? After everyone and everything is dead and gone? After the sun uses up all its fuel, five billion to fifty billion years from now? You think that will give him enough time? Its a pitiful execuse for a God who has no intelligent, constructive solution to offer us and who has no merciful, humane solution to offer us. He doesnt know how to help and He doesnt know how to heal. You're tired of hearing the same "crap"? Maybe you cant handle the truth of what I say. You know what Im tired of reading? Im tired of reading the same fucking execuses such as free will and Adam and Eve's sin. Im tired of reading and hearing that the world is full of evil and suffering just because two ignorant humans ate a forbidden fruit thousands of years ago. This is the height of stupidity, insanity, injustice, and cruelty. Its an insult to the good name of God. You Fundamentalists are mentally challenged and morally challenged like the God you worship. I dont care what you think of me. I have more sense and more wisdom and Im more moral than all you idiot Fundamentalists put together.

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      Lybrah 3 years ago

      You are so fucking wrong! Read Lucifer's War by Linda Rios Brook and shut up the heck up with this "the devil has won" nonsense. I am so tired of reading the same entry posted over and over.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      The Devil and evil rules the world. A good loving God does not. I live in endless fear. God is a screwup if He exists or an absentee landlord or a monster or an insane lunatic or an incomptent dunce. Or He is mentally blind and morally blind and cannot see and cannot understand the cruelty, immorality, insanity, the wrong, and stupidity of what He does and what He allows. This unkowable divine plan which us humans dont understand sucks. If we dont understand and if we dont know, then why wont He tell us? Why keep silent and secret? Enough with expecting us all to have blind faith and blind trust. If God doesnt heal this trashed creation soon, then happiness in this world isn't going to be worth a can of beans. Its a hell for millions of people and countless animals all over the world. Enough with free will and enough with Adam and Eve's sin. Im sick of it. Cruel, negligent, unreasoning, unkind, and incompetent is this God we worship. And the next life will be a vastly worse hell lasting forever for billions of people who will be tortured in unimaginably horrifying ways. Religious folks dont see the cruelty and insanity of the God they worship.The Devil and evil have won.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      Thank you dear Karthikkash. The law of karma or kharma is taught by ancient religions. There is reincarnation taught in Eastern religions. What concerns me and what scares me the most is the afterlife or what happens after death. There are many versions of hell besides the Christian version. The Christian version of hell is the most sadistic of all. David J. Stewart thinks he is doing a good thing when he warns people about hell and to accept Jesus Christ as savior. Believing Jesus Christ as savior is the only way to avoid hell according to these Christian Fundamentalists. But when he says that victims in hell are going to be buried alive in a claustrophobic, coffin like environment and burned by fire at the same time forever, he professes to believe in a cruel, sadistic, monster for a God. David J. Stewart and other Fundamentalists like him worship a cruel God and dont know it. This sick, cruel disgusting belief is an insult and slander to God. Do you know any other religion where victims in hell are buried alive in a claustrophobic, coffin like environment? If its not God who does this to us and if its not the Devil who does this to us, does karma torture people in the afterlife by burying them in a claustrophobic, coffin like environment? Its equally horrific to ponder that karma or Fate or no conscious entity may put people in a hellish afterlife and we have no control of what happens to us. Just as we cant control the seasons, so too we cant control what happens to us after death. The fear of claustrophobia or taphophobia or being buried alive is the most horrific fate imaginable or unimaginable. I fear that when I die I will be put inside a claustrophobic coffin like environment and I cant get out and theres no one who can save me. And I fear that this torture will last a long time or it will last forever. Edgar Allan Poe wrote about premature burial but he was writing about it for this earthly life with this earthly body. Whats worse than being buried alive? Its being buried alive in the next life forever as described by David J. Stewart. Whether God does this to us or whether the Devil does this to us or whether karma does this to us or whether its a totally unknown process which does this to us, the end results are the same. The Christian version of hell is one of the cruelest, sickest, most sadistic versions imaginable or unimaginable.

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      Karthik Kashyap 3 years ago from India

      When you know that some sick demented idiot talks about stuff, why do you continue listening to him? Do you want to live your life listening to some energy-sucking vampire or do you want to live your life on your terms? That is the call you need to make.

      Secondly, karma is overrated. The simple law of karma is this. You will face the consequences of your doing. That's it!! You kill someone and you are caught, you go to jail and probably will see the electric chair. That is the law of karma. Nothing more, nothing less.

      One cannot keep living life with a fear that some invisible god watching with lens focused on each and individual. If there is indeed a universal god, he has the entire universe to take care of, and we are too minuscule to focus. Even if there are multiple gods, they don't dictate that you need to live life according to their law.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      Art Black even if its not God or not the Devil who puts us in hell and even if no conscious being puts us in hell then what if people end up in hell through kharma? What Im saying is that another horrific possibility is that people may end up in a hellish afterlife by NO CONSCIOUS ENTITY. As I said before, this is something that may happen to us by some totally unknown source and by some totally unknown process without our control. Just an we cant control the process of the changing of the seasons, so too we cant control what happens to us after we die. We have no say in what may happen to us after we die and if its a hellish existence which kharma or Fate puts us in, then we are screwed. A totally unknown process may determine what happens to people after death, and this totally unknown process may put us in a hellish environment. As I said before, I suffer from claustrophobia and fear of being buried alive. The sick, demented preacher David J. Stewart is saying that victims in hell will be buried alive in a claustrophobic, coffin like environment forever as they burn in fire at the same time. Its monstrously sick, sadistic, fiendish, diabolical cruelty. And according to this demented guy, billions of people or the vast number of humanity is doomed to this unimaginably horrific fate. He worships a cruel God and doesnt know it. I cannot handle claustrophobia or being buried alive. I cannot imagine the cruelty of this kind of torture. And I cannot handle being immersed in fire. Cruel, inhumane, torture. If God or the Devil isnt doing this to us, then what if its kharma which does this to us? What if no conscious being decides to put us in hell? The unknown is frightening. I live in endless fear. Thank you for the advice.

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      artblack01 3 years ago from New Mexico

      Look, I went through roughly the same fear you did when I was a believer, but I was much younger than you. One phrase that always stuck with me was knowledge is power. People rely on your lack of knowledge to fool you, scam you or even scare you into being completely controlled. All religions are based off this. Read 1984, replace the elements with christian ones and you have the exact same thing. Research the origins of your religion, ask yoursel, what part of this is valid and what part of it is possibly made up, how do you find out which is which. This is how i became an atheist, the truth WILL set you free. Dont fear a fantasy.

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      anonymous 3 years ago

      Art Black we have our differences and I apologize to you for being rude. I appreciate you telling me that there is nothing to fear in the next life. You maybe an atheist but you have more morals than most Christians who spout this hell belief. Paladin I appreciate that you are trying to alleviate the fear I suffer from. Thank you friend. Its just that we're on opposite sides of the door. Im a believer who is a Christian(albeit one whose faith has weakened and who is confused and scared) while you're an unbeliever. I prefer hearing it from God that I have nothing to fear for the next life. Otherwise I will always live with persistent fear and dread over what happens after death. After reading David J. Stewart's sick website about all unsaved people being buried alive in a claustrophobic, coffin like environment in hell as they burn in fire at the same time. I am scared shitless. I suffer from claustrophobia. Being buried alive is as horrific and as cruel as intense pain from fire and according to this sick preacher. David J. Stewart, God is going to inflict both these monstrous tortures to all those victims in hell. Im going to end up in a looney bin from fear. I cannot imagine being buried alive in a claustrophobic coffin like environment forever. Just a few minutes of this torture will have me raging and raving. Its too horrifying to contemplate. And I cannot imagine being immersed in fire forever. This God chooses the cruelest, most monstrous, most horrific ways imaginable to punish sinners. Isnt there a more intelligent, more constructive, more merciful, more humane way to punish sin than this? Why must it be monstrous, inhuman, diabolical, fiendish, sadistic torture and cruelty forever and ever? And dont forget Bill Wiese says that there will also be a sewer like stench, suffocation or inability to breathe, and being mutilated and sliced by repulsive demonic monsters. Whew. What a scary God we worship. God's love lasts forever but His cruelty and wrath also lasts forever. Mary Baxter's Jesus scolds people in hell and rubs it in their faces by saying, "See, this is what happens when you disbelieve me. This is what happens when you dont put God and me first in your life. You were warned while you were on earth but you didnt listen. Its too late now." Mary Baxter's Jesus has no mercy and doesnt forgive and allows the damned to roast in fire forever. And this is supposedly the "love your enemies and turn the other cheek Jesus." So God's forgiveness has an expiration date. Its too late to repent after dying and going to hell. Alot of people will be punished for being what Nature made them to be and for being imperfect, flawed sinful humans. Theres another thing which scares me. I dont have a name for it. I guess Kharma might be the closest word I can think of. This other fear I have is that it maybe some OTHER FORCE which sends people to hell or SOMETHING OTHER THAN GOD. Maybe its not God who sends us to an afterlife of torture but another entity or entities or NO ENTITIES AT ALL. Maybe the human soul or consciousness ends up in a hell like environment after death through an unknown process by NO GOD OR BY NO DEVIL but by Kharma. Think of it as a natural process analogous to summer turning into fall or spring turning into summer. Just as the changing of the seasons are processes we cant control, so also maybe the horrific possibility that we maybe put into a hell like environment after death and its something which just happens that we are unable to control. Whether it God or whether its the Devil who puts us in hell, or whether its no conscious entity which puts us in hell, the end results are horrific just the same. The unfortunates in hell are screwed no matter who put them there and no matter which process sent them there. This hubsite is one of the best. Titen-sxull has one of the best hubsites and is intelligent. Thank you for reading.

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      Paladin_ 4 years ago from Michigan, USA

      Anonymous, there is no reason to fear Hell (any more than there is reason to hope for Heaven). As Emerson once wisely observed, knowledge is the antidote to fear.

      You have plenty of knowledge regarding Christianity's sadistic portrayal of Hell. But you lack the broader knowledge of Hell's mythology -- knowledge that will allow you to break away from the paradigm of fear and recognize Hell for what it truly is -- a construct of human imagination.

      For a first step, I recommend you do a simple internet search on Hell in other religions. A visit to Wikipedia's page on Hell should get you going in the right direction.

      You'll find that other versions of Hell throughout history have been vastly different from Christianity's supposed furnace of eternal torment. Eventually, you'll begin to comprehend Hell as nothing more than a very common theme in the very common human tendency to mythologize life and death. It's no more real than God is.

      I wish you the best of luck!

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      I don't see how anyone can fear or even care about such a character as the god of the bible.... do you fear vishnu, kali, alah, loki, lex luther, etc, etc? They are all fictional characters, god is fictional. Look at what actual history and prehistory says compared to what the bible says. Just because we are ignorant of something in this universe doesn't mean god did it. There are hundreds of different gods from hundreds of different religions, why don't you fear those gods? Because you grew uplearning about the christian one. If you grew up in India you might fear Kali. What if you grew up in ancient Greece? Or ancient Norway? What would you fear? Dont fear a fiction, fear a reality. The people who believe in yhis crap are far more scary, I mean those christians who nail bomb planned parenthood clinics are far more evil. Hitler was a roman Catholic, he was a twisted fuck. And yes, yhe christian god is a twisted evil character, but he's not real. So relax man, life can be great just by being a great person to everyone you meet. I am, and seeing how great I am to people most christians relax around me even when they find out I am an atheist. Be cool to people and they'll be cool to you. Live this life for your happiness and make others happy by being cool to everyone. There is only one life. There is no evidence of an afterlife so enjoy it while it lasts.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Yes Im leaving the same message because I want people to know what a cruel, sick, disgusting, evil horrific idea this belief in hell is. I agree that wickedness is in the human heart but whose fault is that? Who gave us or rather who misgave us free will? Who conducted thus cruel, immoral, insane, destructive experiment with free will, Satan, and Adam and Eve? God did according to you Fundamentalists. This was a recipe and the ingredients for disaster, tragedy, travesty, failure, misery. The entire creation was set up to be screwed, ruined, trashed, and fucked. Execuse my language. God set humanity up for failure. As I said many times before, God is irresponsible and a lousy parent almost from the start. He allows evil and danger to enter the Garden of Eden in the form of a talking, tempting snake and a lurking Satan in the background. Notice in God's initial warning to Adam and Eve, He doesnt bother telling them anything about sin, or diseases, or violence, or crimes, or wars, or genocides and doesnt bother telling them that the entire creation would be ruined if they ate the forbidden fruit. As we all know, AFTER Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit this unfair, unreasoning, unforgiving, cruel God has a hissy fit and allows Adam and Eve's sin to be passed to ALL future unborn humans and He curses and punishes the ENTIRE creation for Adam and Eve's sin. Its unfair, insane, stupid, cruel. Its too bad you cant see this. Fundamentalists dont see the cruelty, immorality, and insanity of the God we worship. He has no common sense and He has no reasoning. Is it fair to punish innocent animals for Adam and Eve's sin? No its not. The Bible God punishes children fro the sins of their parents and vice versa, punishes animals for the sins of human beings, punishes people for the sins of ancestors, punishes babies for the sins of their parents, punishes the entire community for the sins of a single person, and punishes the ENTIRE CREATION for the sin of two people, Adam and Eve. I dont know about you but I find this cruel, unfair, unjust, insane, and stupid. Then you say God is only good. Ahem. Which God are we talking about? If you mean the Bible God is only good then you dont know how to read or you are brainwashed as all Fundamentalists are. Let me remind you again of a verse from the Bible where God says "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil." Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7, King James Bible.) Read it. Its right there in your Bibles. What kind of God kills 70,000 men just because David took a census? Or who threatens people with turning into cannibals and mothers shall eat their babies? Or who kills thousands of people just for complaining? And He has an eternal torture chamber where billions of souks will be tortured in unimaginably horrific ways such as being burned by fire, by being subjected to a sewer like stench, by suffocation or inability to breathe, by being buried alive inside a claustrophobic, coffin like environment, and by being mutilated and sliced by demonic monsters forever. Is this a God of love and mercy to you? To me this is a cruel, insane, sadistic monster. This is cruelty and sadism on steroids. Imagine the torture of being buried alive inside a claustrophobic coffin forever. Claustrophobia and suffocation. This is SICK, MONSTROUS, DIABOLICAL, FIENDISH, MALEVOLENT. SADISTIC CRUELTY, EVIL, HORROR. And the victims will be burning in fire at the same time and its forever. THIS IS FUCKING SICK. Im going to end up in a mental hospital from fear. This is infinitely vastly worse than any horror movie.

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      Lybrah 4 years ago

      Anonymous, what is up with your long rants about how fearful you are--you have left the same messages on my hub sites. They all end with "I live in endless fear." It is as if you are cutting and pasting the same message again and again. What is your deal? We get it. You think God is evil and you're scared. And you should be, because the human heart is wicked and only good come from God. But really, we've all gotten the memo.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      The subject of hell fills me with fear day and night. According to Mary Baxter who wrote a Divine Revelation of Hell, which is a sick, disgusting book, Jesus will scold sinners as they are burning in a fiery pit. Jesus will rub it in the faces of each damned person and say"See, this is what happens when you disbelieve me. This is what happens when you dont put God and me first in your life. You were warned while you were on earth but you didnt listen. Its too late now." Mary Baxter's Jesus will have no mercy and will not forgive and will allow the damned to burn in fire forever. And this is supposedly the "love your enemies and turn the other cheek Jesus." So God's forgiveness has an expiration date. Bill Wiese is just as digusting in his disgusting book, "23 minutes in hell." He describes fire, a sewer like stench, suffocation or the inability to breathe, and being assaulted, mutilated, and sliced by repulsive demonic monsters. Its sick. And according to demented preacher David J. Stewart, victims in hell will be buried alive forever in a claustrophobic, coffin like environment and burned bu fire at the same time. Its sick, sadistic, unimaginable cruelty and horror. Being buried alive inside a coffin or vault or crypt is one of the worst forms of torture with claustrophobia and suffocation and according to David J. Stewart, God will inflict this monstrous torture forever to billions of souls who are going to end up in hell. This is monstrous, sick, sadistic, fiendish, malevolent, diabolical inhuman cruelty, evil, horror beyond words, beyond imagining, beyond description. This is infinitely vastly worse than any horror movie. Yes people need to be punished for their sins and evil but this is overcharged, supercharged cruelty and sadism on steroids. I cannot imagine a God being more evil than this. Its hard enough to believe in a good, loving God who allows cancer, malaria, hurricanes, centipedes, mass starvation, and genocides. Im going to end up in a mental hospital from fear. I live in endless fear.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      Suffering has nothing to do with the devil or demons, they are a direct result of human greed and human fear and human hatred. Humanity has created Demons and devils to keep from feeling responsible for the nature of their own stupidity. Gods were created to feed and subdue the fear of suffering and death also caused by our own violent actions and our own mortality. Gods were also created in order to explain what we were too stupid and lazy to attempt to question and answer for ourselves.

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      Karthik Kashyap 4 years ago from India

      And I wish they would win this war, anonymous. I am sorry, I am not against your faith. But I am against the deceit and lies which the Israelis and Vatican have been feeding the humanity for more than 4,000 years. Jehovah was a myth created by the Israelis. Jesus was another story concocted by the same Hebrews to bring their conceptual idea of a "prophecy" to come true. The 12 apostles were just either the 12 tribes of Hebrews or the 12 zodiac signs. I hope you remember that Jesus was an ardent Jew and nothing else. What he taught was Judaism. Nazarene (there was no town called Nazareth till almost the 2nd or 3rd century AD) was a militant Jewish group. What "Jesus" taught about "cutting of the parts of the body", "Sword of god" and few other things were not allegories. They were teachings of a militant group. His "miracles" was a cheap magician's tricks. You may already have seen some of them on television. An "all-loving god" does not talk about blood-shed or sword in any way. Those are teachings of groups like Al-Qaeda.

      "Lucifer/Satan" and his "demons" what the Vatican talks about are actually pagan gods. They are the gods of the east. Gods of the Indians, Sumerians, Greek, Norse, Egypt and so on. They were the bringers of knowledge. There was nothing "all loving" about them. They openly said that "they would save the virtuous while destroying the evil". If one chooses to believe in the creation theory, it wasn't the Biblical god who created humanity. It were these demons who created humanity. They were not evil in any way. They may not have been "divine" in anyway either, because they were just another race of extra-terrestrials. As such, they had both benevolent as well malevolent behaviors, just like humans.

      The tortures over a thousand years wasn't done by the devil. They were done by the church. Remember how brutally and mercilessly thousands of pagans were slaughtered between the 8th and 15th century A.D. Remember how bloody the inquisitions were. Remember how countries and cultures were destroyed in the name of "Jesus". Remember how they called everyone a heretic who opposed the "word of Jesus". It was the word of Church. Remember how brutally science was suppressed for almost three centuries. Remember how at the First Council of Nicaea, all books were burnt except the books that exalted Jesus to the rank of god's son. Remember how everything else except for the Church's doctrines were termed as Evil.

      These were done by the Church, not the "devil" or "demons". Plagues and the diseases are scientifically explainable phenomenon. Not something done by the devil. If they were created, they were created by the same Jehovah, whose son was "Jesus". Even if you go by the Vatican's definition of "devil", the devil was not able to create such huge catastrophes. He could just mischievous thoughts. But the ultimate person responsible for his actions was the human, not the devil.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      As the anonymous guy, my Christian faith has weakened but its not dead. Evil and suffering are threats to my faith. Instead of blaming it on God, the blame should go to the Devil and demons. Its a smart idea to accept Jesus Christ as saviour. I need to repent. The Devil and demons are stronger and smarter than given credit for. It seems the Devil and demons are winning the war here on earth.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      Anon, coming from you I take that as a compliment. As far as who debunks what or disproves whatever, as long as they can demonstrate what they say and show their work then they have credibility. Don't be a hypocrite, anon, and have a nice life.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Art Black you continue to prove you're an asshole. Yes thats right. And lazy shit YOURSELF. And stupid YOURSELF. You know we were having a mostly polite conversation UNTIL you came along. You degenerated this thread into trolling. Insulting people and calling them names because you dont agree with their beliefs. Im not trying to convince you to believe me. I dont care what you believe or disbelieve. You sir are an arrogant prick. Aliens have been debunked? Really? Who debunked them? The existence of God and demons has been debunked too? Who debunked it? The atheists? You know whats funny? When a person thinks hes right about something but in reality is wrong about it. That would describe you. You're entitled to your wrong opinion. Just dont expect everyone else to buy your scientific baloney. And not all scientists think like you. There are actually scientists who are open to the idea of supernatural phenomena and aliens. We should applaud these rare scientists. Not all scientists are closed minded pricks as you. I have nothing more to say to you. Go away.

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      Karthik Kashyap 4 years ago from India

      I agree that everything is not supernatural. What our ancestors thought as magic may have been just advanced science beyond their knowledge. But was everything fake? I don't think so. For example. telepathy was thought to be prevalent in ancient times. Then it became legend, and then myth and then a cock-and-bull-story. But today, the same science is proving that telepathy is possible. Same with extra-sensory perception. Animals, especially dogs and cats are known to grasp certain things that we humans normally are incapable of noticing. Again, certain things can be debunked and indeed have been debunked as fake. But, there are also evidences that some things may be just possible, and our science has not sufficiently advanced to prove or disprove them. It is wrong to think that "lack of proof" means "lack of existence".

      As I said earlier, our ancestors weren't fools. They just saw certain things and couldn't explain them, mostly because it was beyond their grasp. Was it supernatural or was it plain science? It is very difficult to differentiate.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9w-i5oZqaQ

      Ancient Aliens Debunked.... so easy a child can understand it.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      One of the main problems I have with people trying to say there is so much suffering in the world and blaming some sort of forgetful God or some sort of nasty demon is really that those people who believe that shit are irresponsible lazy pieces of shit. Yes. People who use the supernatural to explain the things they don't understand in their natural world are too lazy or stupid or both to get an education and do their research to really discover the real reason for things that happen in this world. You can spout off God this and Demons that Salvation this and damnation that till you are blue in the face but what you will never have is credibility and a grasp of reality because you lack critical thinking skills of any sort.

      I'm not saying you don't have a right to believe in bullshit, just stop trying to convince me you have any idea what you are talking about, because you don't.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      No I dont hold a degree in paranormal studies but I have read books by people who have such as Raymond Moody, karlis Osis, and Brad Steiger. Magazines such as Fate and Fortean Times is good reading. Art Black is wrong when he says that the supernatural has been debunked. No it has not been debunked. Just because some people fake photos and create hoaxes doesnt mean everything is a fake. I myself have had unusual experiences which is one reason I tend to believe in the supernatural. Between 2004 to 2011 I have heard voices in my sleep and conversed with them. They were of a Satanic nature and frightening. Another voice introduced himself as John. This is called clairaudience. Its hearing without the external ears. The first such experience told me it was a spirit. It was more than one voice at a time. These experiences lasted for a very short time and would quickly end. The voices would quickly disappear or would not answer my questions so it leaves me with alot of unanswered questions. On two other separate occasions while awake in bed my shirt was pulled by an invisible presence and on another occasion while awake my blanket was pulled from me and waved to and fro in a taunting manner. Poltergeists? Demons? Fairies? Deeply religious people would call this demonic obsession. Theres a difference between demonic possession and demonic obsession. In demonic obsession the demons havent possessed the person but are harassing and tormenting the person in less direct ways. Theres an invisible realm of intelligent beings. Theres got to be another reality besides this one.

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      Titen-Sxull 4 years ago from back in the lab again

      As a former believer in the supernatural (from ghosts, to God, to aliens and beyond) yes I can say that I researched those topics. I used to get a camera, flashlights and go out into cemeteries in the middle of the night with my friends looking for evidence of the paranormal. Never found any evidence and never caught anything in the photos.

      As for Near Death Experiences there is no reason to think they are supernatural in origin, anymore than there is reason to believe every dream you have while you are asleep is supernatural. Brain chemistry accounts for everything reported during NDEs. Notice how you don't hear any fully-dead experiences, that is because the dead don't experience things, they're dead.

      "Some of these are fakes and can be explained by faulty film but alot of them are unexplainable"

      If they are "unexplainable" than ghosts aren't the explanation either. See that's just it, there are real mysteries in this world, we don't know everything there is to know. But when we come to the border of our understanding it does us no good to leap to supernatural explanations. It didn't help the ancients when they tried to explain lightning, or the sun, or the moon or the sea or earthquakes or illness. Could it be there is a reason that the supernatural recedes as our understanding of the natural expands?

      "You dont have any understanding nor interest in unexplained phenomena and you arent qualified to comment about it."

      Do you have a PhD in paranormal studies or something anon? There is no such thing as an expert in a field as speculative and pseudoscientific as the paranormal, anyone can hold an opinion on it and be just as qualified as those who claim to know things that they couldn't possibly know about forces that are by definition beyond our understanding.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Art Black you can disbelieve all you want. I DONT CARE. For you its bullshit but for me and for other intelligent curious people there are interesting, exciting things in the world. Just because science cant study or cant prove it doesnt make it untrue. So all those near death experiences are all false? So you know this for a fact? Have you ever researched near death experiences? Im betting the answer is no. Alot of people just dismiss things without bothering to research them. Those elongated skulls could be due to disease or deformity OR they could be aliens. At least they could be a group of extinct people. No one knows for sure. How do you explain anomalous cloud formations Mr. Skeptic? Dont give me the bullshit that it just formed by chance. If your stupid enough to believe that its all blind chance then you go ahead and believe that. And for the 20th time a deficient God or deficient creator doesnt have to reveal itself to us. Its a remote, aloof, silent, hidden, disconnected absentee landlord for a God. But that still isnt atheism. Its Deficient Theism and its the truth. Of the three possibilities, 1. Atheism, 2. Traditional Theism, and 3. Deficient Theism, which one of these three possibilities is most likely to be the truth? Its number 3 Deficient Theism which is most likely to be the truth and which best explains reality and best explains evil and suffering in the world. Atheism csnnot explain causation and complexity and cannot explain unexplained phenomena. Traditional Theism cannot satisfactorily explain why evil and suffering abounds and why God chooses to remain silent and hidden. But Deficient Theism as I coin it can account for both causation and complexity and can account for a creator AND can better explain why evil and suffering abounds in the world and can explain why God is silent or hidden. One way or another a deficiency exists in God or the creator. I am 99.999 percent certain I am right when I say that Deficient Theism or a deficient God is the true scenario. Hey if Im wrong and the atheists are right or if the Traditional Theists are right then I'll eat my shirt. I dont think Im wrong. I am 100 percent certain Deficient Theism is the right answer. I cannot conceive how I could be wrong. You know, theres a side of me that wishes I was wrong. Theres a side to me that wishes that Atheism is true. Better no God and no creator than one who creates and who allows rampant evil and misery. Theres a side to me that wishes the Traditional Theists are right and Im wrong. Maybe God has an unknowable reason for allowing evil and suffering and for being remote, silent, and hidden, Deep down inside, I know that both the Atheists are wrong and the Traditional Theists are wrong. They are both full of shit. That leaves only Deficient Theism as explaining reality. Deficient Theism and a deficient God is the most intelligent, honest, rational, logical, and reasonable theory. Also, many people have seen ghosts and even photographed them. Some of these are fakes and can be explained by faulty film but alot of them are unexplainable. If you choose to disbelieve then thats your business. I dont care if you believe or not. You should just stick to your science. You dont have any understanding nor interest in unexplained phenomena and you arent qualified to comment about it.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      The elongated skulls have been shown to be human and all the NDE and demonic possessions have been shown to either be frauds or or mental illness. Either way everything you mentioned has been debunked as such. As far as God goes, all the suffering or miracles in the universe have been shown to have natural explanations and God is unnecessary in explaining anything that exists or has happened in the universe. You can believe in all that bullshit all you want, Anon, but as far as I am concerned the only thing it makes you look like in my eyes is a delusional fool.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      A number of strange elongated skulls have been found in Mexico and elsewhere. These skulls are too big to be entirely human and the shape is different from a human. The Anunnaki aliens are said to have such skulls. If these beings are fakes then why is there a ton of information about them and why do people insist on seeing them? As I said many times before, a deficient God or gods does not have to reveal itself to us. Thats why its deficient. It either chooses not to reveal itself or is unable to reveal itself. A mentally blind and morally blind God or creator would not care if people believe or disbelieve in Him and would not care about evil and suffering and would not bother trying to help us and would not bother trying to interact with us. Thats why its deficient. That still doesnt prove atheism. It just proves a deficient, flawed God or creator. Remove the prefixes all and omni from the terms all good, omni benevolent, all mighty, omnipotent, all wise, omniscient and reality starts to make sense. The possibility that God or the creator is irrational, insane, mentally blind and morally blind are further explanations for why you dont see evidence of His existence and for why evil and suffering exists and continues with no end in sight. Its because He is DEFICIENT. Maybe God or the creator is not in control of what's going on in the world and is unable to reveal Himself to us and is unable to prevent evil and suffering. One way or the other its a deficient God or creator. Still this isnt atheism. Its Deficient Theism and it fits in with reality.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Actually theres alot of evidence for the supernatural. Many cases of near death experiences, out of body experiences, demonic possession, and the spirit world. Read the books from authors Raymond Moody and Brad Steiger. Read Hostage to the Devil by Malachi Martin. Read the Rough Guide to Unexplained Phenomena by authors Bob Ricard and John Michel. Anomalous cloud formations in the sky showing words and faces is evidence for the supernatural. Clouds cant form faces by itself. Theres an intelligent being or beings behind it. Ghosts and poltergeists are common. Plus a number of strange elongated human skulls have been f

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      There is no evidence of any supernatural event of any kind occurring. There is no evidence of Spirits, there is no evidence for Ghosts, God, Fairies, Dragons, Demons, Angels, Unicorns, actual witches, alien abduction or visitations. Whether I believe in it or not has no relevance at all. You can believe whatever you like, but without proof that anything you believe is real then you might as well live in your imagination for the rest of your life rather the real world. The problem Anon, is you have no proof that anything you said is true, yet, everything I believe to be true is not only provable but has practical applications in the real world. You can argue all you want that it's real whether I believe in it or not but all I can do is laugh since you have no evidence. What if I told you I had powers like superman, would you believe me? Why or why not? If you say no, that which you require to believe me I would also require of you.

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      Titen-Sxull 4 years ago from back in the lab again

      Actually Anon there is no evidence of any supernatural things existing. The supernatural carries no explanatory power as it is entirely beyond our understanding or even our ability to ever understand. It is much more likely that, if a "god" were to exist it would be part of nature, rather than beyond it.

      Complexity does not imply intelligent design in the slightest. Complexity exists in nature in situations that require no intelligent intervention, from the beauty of stellar nurseries to the unique shape of every snowflake. Nature can be complex without invoking magic or the supernatural.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      The supernatural is real whether you believe in it or not. Spirits are real. The Supernatural created the Natural and created human beings. Causation and complexity implies an intelligent creator. There is no evidence that the creator or creators is moral, loving, all good, morally perfect. And there is no evidence the creator or creators is rational and sane. I would suggest the creator or creators is at least partly evil, immoral, or amoral, irrational, insane, mentally blind and morally blind. Its a deficient creator or creators but that still isnt atheism. A deficient creator or creators or a deficient God or Gods and an evil Devilish, demonic force behind creation is the truth.Atheism is wrong and Traditional Theism is wrong. Both Richard Dawkins is wrong and William Lane Craig is wrong. The truth is Deficient Theism or Process Theology.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      "Regarding my analytic capabilities, you can be rest assured that I am a research analyst by profession. My job requires me to analyze things day in and day out. And I have got a pretty good name in my area of work."

      That's a joke right? Ha ha!

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      You see the problem with people like you is YOU get your "main-stream" science from the media, the media always gets science wrong. The only place you should get science from is the journals that have been peer reviewed and have applications put in place. What people like you don't understand is that science works because it questions EVERYTHING, including the answers and you should always question any conclusion people come up with. There is evidence to back up every fact. If not then it's not a fact. That is what peer review means, scientists trying to debunk each other, find flaws, etc. When no flaws are found then the paper can be published as an excepted fact (aka scientific theory, not to be confused with guess aka unscientific theory).

      The idea that aliens helped primitive civilizations build things like the pyramids and other structures that blow your mind has been debunked. It has been shown how primitive man not only figured it out but did it with out the aid from any outside intelligence.

      You can pretend you have knowledge and truth, but the problem is you cannot prove any of your assertions. Or have any sciences tested this and had their papers reviewed? Probably, and they probably failed the test and you are probably gonna say or have said that it's some kind of science conspiracy.

      Here is the deal, science and people in science are concerned with provable truths not some kind of lame dogma that you seem to insist they have. Have you ever taken a college based science? I doubt it.

      What is real is what can be backed up with evidence, I am only concerned with reality, not some alien/deity fantasy which is what you are trying to assert, so don't talk to me about reality you demented nut job.

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      Karthik Kashyap 4 years ago from India

      And you are definitely welcome to keep thinking that everything the main-stream science has been teaching you is the truth, when suddenly one day you wake up and realize that most of the things it fed you with normal food was something flowing in the sewage canal. Arguing blindly is not my intention. You don't need to believe in alternate theory, but it would be good if you started thinking for yourself and question oddities than completely trust everything science has been teaching us. Getting out there and asking questions is always good. Then you will start understanding what is reality and what is not.

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      Karthik Kashyap 4 years ago from India

      I am not blowing anything out of proportion. I am just asking you to think logically and reason properly. I am not saying humans were incapable of creating fire or imagination. Every imagination thousands of years ago had a firm root in reality. People may not have been able to explain what they saw. But they put down in simple terms what they saw. What they thought was "as bright as a thousand suns" was something that they saw was extremely bright. Their reaction to something was exaggerated. However, they did see something in the first place to exaggerate. They didn't have a lazy day to suddenly come up and say something looked as bright as thousand suns. One needs to ask, what was that something instead of saying that they had nothing else to do and made up stuff for their entertainment.

      Regarding the IQ levels of cavemen, they drew what they saw. The caveman saw a mammoth and he drew a mammoth. He saw a bison and he drew a bison. He saw people hunting animals and he drew them. He drew what he saw. If he had drawn 2 tails or 10 horns instead of one, that is called imagination. But, every cave painting available to us is as simple as it can occur. Given those conditions, it is illogical to say that he just drew someone looking like an astronaut or something looking like a spacecraft out of thin air, while he had absolutely no idea how they even looked like. He had to see it first to draw it.

      For example, you ask a child to draw a human being. It won't draw a human body like an artist in a detailed way. Nor will it add 10 legs to a man. It writes a circle with 5 sticks attached to it, that look like a humans body, two arms and two legs. That is not imagination. That is a child's limited capability of drawing something. The child didn't come up with a concept from thin air. It just drew the best it could with its capabilities. That was what cave paintings looked like. If a caveman saw an astronaut, he wouldn't be able to write the shining suit or a glass helmet. All he could draw was a man with a circle around his head and probably a cylinder-shaped body to depict a body suit. That is what is actually found in a cave-painting. And with his extraordinary imagination levels, he knew the difference between a normal painting of a man w.r.t a drawing with a cylindrical body and a circle around a man's head. A high imagination is when I drew a dog with 10 tails and call it Superman. That is not what a caveman did.

      And none of this is from a cock-and-bull alternate theory. All these are evaluations keeping our main-stream science teachings as basis. Also, there is a difference between conspiracy theory and alternate theory. I can create a conspiracy theory that I am an alien coming up from unknown planet. That doesn't require hard evidence. Alternate theory requires hard evidence, such as cuneiform, cave paintings, an ability to analyze writings and so on that can be seen and touched. In that case, many PhDs that propose alternate theories must be serious nut cases.

      Regarding my analytic capabilities, you can be rest assured that I am a research analyst by profession. My job requires me to analyze things day in and day out. And I have got a pretty good name in my area of work.

      One can sit inside a well and think that he knows the entire world. Your comments pretty much show that. And I don't need to argue with a frog in the well, who doesn't even want to know that there is a world outside.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      You really know how to blow stuff WAY OUT OF PROPORTION. What I am telling you is that everything in the cave painting, EVERYTHING was something that came out of their minds, and observations, and imaginations. Yes, PRIMITIVE man was very capable of imagining things, hell birds can imagine things, that is how they come up with cool ways for solving stupid puzzles we get to keep them from getting food.... watch "A Murder of Crows". The pictures of "spacemen" along side of mammoths or whatever, is probably not a "spaceman" but your interpretation of a space man. HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE DRAWING? Could be someone special to them, could be a tribute to someone who died, could be any number of HUMAN things.

      So what you are telling me is that primitive man is incapable of discovering fire, and how to use it to their benefit, make tools, build very large structures, without the aid of aliens from outer space who just happened to come here for the sole purpose of helping us get more advanced? Yet there is absolutely no trace of them at all except in these interpretations you have of their drawings that YOU don't understand because you don't think they have an imagination because you think they had JUST come out of being apes, even though there is probably a few tens of thousands of years or more since they were apelike.... And you know that for sure their drawings were from aliens and you know for sure that we couldn't have done this without the aid of aliens because you are an IQ expert of people that lived 40,000 years before you were even born? Where did you get your degree and what is it in?

      You really need to stop listening to the media and to stupid conspiracy and unsolved mystery shows that are baseless and for sure not based on what science has actually said about anything. You are a nut job.

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      Karthik Kashyap 4 years ago from India

      artblack: You are telling me that ancient people were primitive, but they had modern IQ level of imagining things?? The last time I checked, according to "known science", the same cave drawings also included mammoths, bison and few other animals. So, by your definition, they all must be mythological creatures.

      So, let me get this straight. Humans just come out from being apes. Man just has invented fire "by accident". He is just learning things slowly over hundreds of years. He just draws what he sees in his daily life including animals he is hunting, his own people with sharp stones, sticks and spears, the way they hunt (I hope you are getting the IQ level of a primitive man). And suddenly out of the blue, the same caveman can imagine abstract creatures (which don't have existence whatsoever). The more interesting part is that, those creatures exactly look like modern day astronauts, with helmets and with some weird body suits. The paintings are also exactly the same as modern day depiction of UFOs (so I guess, modern day people with high imagination levels went and spoke to them for drawing those paintings). The funny imagination gets serious when pyramids start showing modern day airplanes and Indian texts start actually writing the technology about creating and flying a plane 3,000 years ago (don't you dare argue with me that it is a hoax. Before the western world could creep and crawl, Indians were solving advanced math problems, so I know a thing or two about Indian technology, before the British buffoons came and ruthlessly plundered and massacred all the knowledge we had. Our rocket technology is still used in modern day all over the world).

      I am seriously finding it hard to find words to mention the stupidity in the theory where you are trying to mix an IQ level of a primitive caveman with that of a modern person. Are you seriously comparing a cave painting to a Superman or Batman or f**kman?? If astronomy is your department, mythology and ancient history is mine. Astronomy may be your profession, history and mythology is my passion.

      I told you that I agree that there is no universal god, or at least someone we know. I told you that there may have existed an advanced civilization before the last ice age Or aliens that may have actually visited us, whom our ancestors called gods. Just because modern day scientists have not accepted meeting aliens doesn't mean they are not there. You are in astronomy, right? Then you may have heard about Dr. Michio Kaku, who is a famous physicist.

      These are his words: "You simply cannot dismiss the possibility that some of these UFO sightings are actually sightings from some object created by an advanced civilization, a civilization far out in space, a civilization perhaps millions of years ahead of us in technology. You simply cannot discount that possibility." If you are discounting his words, then I don't have any more words to argue with. I can only say, please take your buried head out of the sand. And go out and read more.

      Modern day science is revealing new discoveries of under-ocean structures (at least 400 ft below sea level, possible only if they were built before the last ice age), especially in areas where the fabled Atlantis was known to have existed. Are you seriously asking me for more evidence about civilizations before 12,000 years?

      There is a difference between being stupid and being a skeptic. A skeptic is not a nihilist. He just tries to analyze everything before he comes to a conclusion. A nihilist is someone who denies something even being given all the evidence. Are you a skeptic or stupid? You need to answer the question yourself.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Art Black you're comparing the existence of God to the existence of Superman the cartoon/comics character? Thats as ludicrous a comparison as Richard Dawkins comparing the existence of God to the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. Theres some kind of God and the supernatural is real and rhe Devil and demons are real and aliens are probably real. As I said before many times its a DEFICIENT God. What dont you understand about the word deficient? This God wont answer our questions and wont reveal Himself and wont or cant prevent evil and suffering as we would like it to because its deficient. It either refuses to do these things or is unable to do these things. Maybe its mentally blind and He or it doesnt understand that people want to see Him and people want to talk with Him and people want it to do a better job in preventing evil and suffering. The sad reality is that this God is an absentee landlord who is remote aloof and disconnected. Maybe He or it doesnt care if people believe in Him or disbelieve in Him. Maybe its unable to communicate with us and is unable to reveal itself to us. And maybe its unable to prevent evil and suffering in the world. That doesnt mean Hes not real. Maybe this God and other supernatural beings arent interested in giving people proof or evidence that they are real. Maybe they enjoy toying with us and maybe they enjoy leaving us to endlessly speculate. Or as I said before God maybe hidden because its either insane, cruel, spiteful, or stupid. One way or the other its a deficient God and thats why there is no evidence for its existence. It either chooses not to give us evidence or its unable to provide evidence. Something can still be real and can still exist despite no evidence. Maybe this God is physically so remote from us(on another dimension of reality) that it cannot penetrate to this reality. Maybe a vast uncrossable gulf or barrier exists between God and humans. Did you look at the photo of the cloud formation showing a face with the Statue of Liberty? Or maybe you're just not interested? Just because you werent there and you didnt see it your not interested and you disbelieve it. Well thats your choice. So you know history and reality Art Black? So you know better? Well folks throw out all your beliefs because Art Black has all the answers. Just as religious folks are presumptuous in their beliefs so also atheists are presumptuous in their unbelief. A more honest answer is to say I dont know. A more intelligent position than atheism or traditional theism is Deficient theism or Process theology. Your entitled to your wrong opinion. If we had a God who was rational, sane, and who had common sense, and who had reasoning power then we would not be arguing and speculating and the world would not be the horror movie that it is. Because rhis God is such a screwup, a failure, a deadbeat, and an absentee landlord, there are always going to be unbelievers or people such as me who do believe but who are angry and disappointed with the God they believe in. And of course evil and suffering continues with no end in sight as this cruel, incompetent deadbeat God continues allowing it or continues to fail in preventing it. Thats why its a deficient, flawed God. I dont know how else to explain it.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      Nothing you have said is any indication or evidence of a God, it is evidence that you can totally misinterpret the information you have been given and that you don't fully understand the information you have been shown.

      Yes, there is a possibility that life exists everywhere, and possibly far more advanced than us.... but what exactly does that mean, when we hear this information we tend to jump to conclusions about it.

      "Europa and Enceladus have earth-like atmosphere" This statement is completely false, if you know as much about astronomy as I do, or more you'd know this, I studied this subject in college. They have atmospheres that contain oxygen but they are hardly breathable. The surface on Europa is completely frozen and the only hope scientists have of discovering life on this moon is to drill into the ice layer and see if the volcanic heat and gasses below have been suitable for life to exist, much like that in our own oceans where it seems inhospitable.

      "The point that I am coming to is, there is proof in ancient texts, cave paintings, pyramids, paintings and carvings showing that we have been visited" That's no evidence of being visited, that is evidence that your interpretation of their drawings is wrong.

      People seem to read texts of old and because there are spectacular stories of "men in the sky" that must mean we had been visited. But let's take this from modern times. Are we currently being visited, do you know an alien from another planet, have you been in a space ship, do you know anyone that has been in one that goes to other planets everyday? Why not? Movies and books and comics and paintings and all sorts of art shows clearly that we have encountered everything from Aliens from Venus, Cthulhu, Been to other dimensions, etc....

      That is why these cave paintings of "space men" are not cave paintings of "space men" Is there a statement in the cave paintings that specifically states that these things were not fictional creations of the imagination of the primitive people of that time? No. You have nothing but your own imagination. There is not one piece of evidence, not one structure on this planet that necessitated the aid of aliens and was not wholly man made and completely from the imagination of man(woman).

      "Now the question is, were they really aliens? Or were they just humans who were far more technologically advanced and existed before the last ice age?" Neither.

      "Did gods really create floods or was it just a natural phenomenon which occurred due to melting of ice" I would like to submit the recent tsunami that happened in Japan as evidence that there doesn't need to be a global flood for some story to come out that the flood taking place to be global and shared by those around the world... How many floods do people encounter in their life? I know I have been in several. Now take a primitive race of humans, all over the world and since floods happen everywhere, all the time, they never cover the entire world but from a lone flood survivor it might appear that way, and if you believe it covered the entire planet, how do you explain all the animals who survived? The Noah's Ark story.... however, they are just stories, all of them, people like you make up stories in their heads of things they don't understand and they believe that that is what is true because they don't understand any other explanation or maybe they are in love with the idea of their explanation or the one they think they found because it's so much cooler than REALITY.

      "The actual problem occurs because these stories cannot be "proved scientifically" using science and math." That's false, the problem becomes, for people like yourself, is that these stories have been proven to be one thing the mythology and folk legends and explanations by people who didn't fully understand the size of their world. However, you can't accept that. Current science doesn't care about those stories because they have been addressed as fictional ideas. Most of the planet is understood by science, including most of the history, what the unscientific masses don't like is that it leaves no room for their Gods and their fairy tales and their silly religious and spiritual beliefs. It's why many people fight so hard against science and try and prove it wrong. But to actually prove something wrong or right you have to fully understand what it is you are proving. Which you don't.

      "Or was the proof already there, and scientists just chose to overlook them early because it would make things too complicated?" Considering how science works this question is completely ridiculous. Quantum Mechanics is the most complicated thing studied by science than all your silly hypothesis.

      And the continued statement you make here is silly, you've jumped to conclusions about they way primitive man looked at the world and saw things and thought about things and life. Look at the times when man studied nature and learned to fly, Leonardo DaVinci drew a working model of a plane that was shown in modern times to have actually worked... now find out why it was never made, why man never flew sooner.... study the life of Galileo, what he discovered and why no progress was made passed that.... now consider the possibility of early human imaginations observations of NATURE and superstitions influence over it's development. It is why I hate religion, the only purpose religion has ever really served is to stifle human creativity, ingenuity and technological development. Thanks to religion, we have witch burnings and the dark ages and so on 1900 years of death and human thought policing.

      "In fact, the vedas talk extensively about how to build a vimana (the technology is same as today's rocket technology). How did they know these 2,000-3,000 years ago. Who gave them that knowledge? " This is a hoax, I hope you know, it's something being spread by every conspiracy nut job around. There is absolutely zero truth to it. How do I know? I investigated it. I know for a fact it's false.

      So now with everything you are telling me and the fact that you are probably either spreading someone else's lie, you haven't done any real research into the VALIDITY of such claims, all you know is the stories and the books you have read, but you have yet to ask the question, how is this myth I believe true? What makes it NOT a myth, hoax, scam, lie, or fantasy?

      "Who were gods? Were they divine?" Who is Superman, did he really grow up in Smallville, Kansas? It's all the same.

      "I think, it is up to an individual to decide." It's not though, if you study history and science and want to make an actual contribution to the world of knowledge and discovery and have a thriving society it's completely a group effort. If you want truth to prevail then every once of information given has to be proven true.

      Interpretation is only good for entertainment and helps NO ONE.

      This blog is as far as I can tell for entertainment, for interpreting the intentions (something we can never actually know) of the authors of such books of myth.

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      Karthik Kashyap 4 years ago from India

      artblacko01: I will agree on certain things you said and also disagree with certain things.

      No universal god exists: Yes, completely agree

      No evidence of gods exist: Disagree

      I need to tell you that I am neither an atheist, nor a religious person. I honestly don't believe in man-made religions. I am a spiritual person. But I am not a "new-age" spiritual person. I absolutely detest most of them since I believe that they teach us BS in the name of peace and love, while truly hiding the knowledge that was given to humans. I have gone through several phases when it comes to god in my life. From a hardcore Hindu to an atheist, then an agnostic, spiritual and a believer in god. I will put it from that perspective.

      I agree with you that there is no universal god. Or at least, none that we know. However, mathematically and scientifically it is proven that life exists outside earth (single cell organisms found on meteorites are already proving panspermia). Drake's equation also gives us the probability that there could be far more civilizations thousands of years advanced than us in stellar systems as near as Sirius (and who knows, our own solar system.. The satellites Europa and Enceladus have earth-like atmosphere and we haven't explore them).

      The point that I am coming to is, there is proof in ancient texts, cave paintings, pyramids, paintings and carvings showing that we have been visited, for time immemorial (I was going through a picture of a cave painting dated at least 29,000 years ago which depicts strange looking creatures with body structure similar to human beings). Now the question is, were they really aliens? Or were they just humans who were far more technologically advanced and existed before the last ice age?

      The problem is that in our ancient texts, allegories and metaphors are mixed with facts. It is extremely difficult to separate them. For example, we have the story of Noah and ark, or the story of Gligamesh/Ziasudra or even the Matsyavatara (the mighty fish incarnation of Vishnu). All are same stories. Did gods really create floods or was it just a natural phenomenon which occurred due to melting of ice and gods just directed humans how to survive? Very difficult to separate. The actual problem occurs because these stories cannot be "proved scientifically" using science and math. But is there proof that it may have occurred. Again look back to cave paintings, ancient texts (at least 4,000 years or older) and carvings.

      Known history is being trashed today. Till 1990s, we were all sure that Giza pyramids were built 3,000 years ago. But more and more evidence shows that, it could be built at least 12,000 years ago. The earliest dated civilization was Egyptian about 5,000 years. Today India and Sumer are competing as the oldest civilizations, dating back to at least 9,000-10,000 years (or even earlier). So, what happened to the "proof" that existed till now? And where did the new proof come from? Or was the proof already there, and scientists just chose to overlook them early because it would make things too complicated? There are actually pictures of planes and hovercraft depicted in the pyramids of Giza, people wearing helmets depicted in cave paintings, people writing about flying machines called vimanas in the vedas. In fact, the vedas talk extensively about how to build a vimana (the technology is same as today's rocket technology). How did they know these 2,000-3,000 years ago. Who gave them that knowledge? Ezekiel describes clearly a space craft. There is absolute proof if we look at it, that history is not as simple as we have been taught.

      The final question. Who were gods? Were they divine? Again, our gods might be people who survived the ice age floods and carried the ancient knowledge and taught us all over again. Or, they may have truly been aliens who came from other worlds who taught us science, technology, art and culture. Some gods may have just been allegories and metaphors to instill certain ethics and morality in us. Were they divine and worth worship? I think, it is up to an individual to decide.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      See what happened? The computer cut me off again. The computer erases what I write. Thats why I dont use paragraphs on a computer. I know how to use paragraphs and Im a fairly god writer but Im weak and limited on a computer.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Art Black. So everyone who claims they have had paranormal experiences is a liar to you. Everyone of them. And every single photograph and audio depicting strange phenomena are hoaxes and fakes. Every one of them. There are tons of books, magazines, and documentaries about the supernatural and unexplained phenomena which can be found in your local library and bookstore. Fate and Fortean Times magazines is good reading. Authors Brad Steiger, Loren Coleman, Jerome Clark, and Karl Shuker have very interesting books. Try reading some of it. A group of skeptics went to Okanagan lake in Canada to see Ogopogo the lake monster. They didnt believe in the existence of these strange monstrous whale-like animals and they disbelieved all the sightings and photos. They laughed at it. They disbelieved and laughed until they themselves saw one of these animals. So it turns out that these unidentified creatures exist. Disbelieving in something doesnt make it untrue. Ogopogo is real and skeptics disbelieving its existence are wrong. Its harder to prove supernatural phenomena. Ghosts, demons, fairies, etc dont cooperate and dont appear when called. You cannot study them in a lab although some have tried to. As I said before, a deficient God doesnt have to answer us and doesnt have to reveal Himself to us and doesnt have to prevent evil and suffering as we feel it should. Thats why its DEFICIENT. Its deficient because it refuses to do these things or is unable to do these things. It may hide itself and remain silent(absentee landlord) and allow evil and suffering out of spite, cruelty, insanity, indifference, stupidity or because it wants people to believe by blind faith. Its a deficient, flawed, screwup for a God but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Some kind of God probably exists. Its just not the kind of God I would like to have. In fact Im embarrassed by such a deadbeat for a God but thats not atheism and that doesnt prove atheism is right. It just proves a deficient, flawed God. I think both the atheists need to grow up and the traditional theists need to grow up and realize the truth of Deficient Theism or Process Theology. A deficient God and an evil Devilish force behind creation best explains reality and best explains why evil and suffering continues with no end in sight. Paladin you say I dont use paragraphs. There's a reason for that. Im very well able to use paragraphs when I write but Im not so good with computers. You see every time I try to make a paragraph my computer screws up what I write and completely erases it. As I write alot it can be tiring and aggravating having what I write erased. Thats why I

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      Paladin_ 4 years ago from Michigan, USA

      I've been loosely following this discussion, but now must interject a note of advice to the anonymous commenter: If you wish people to read your comments, please try to structure them with some sort of paragraphing.

      I'm not trying to be snarky, but every time I start reading your comments, my eyes begin to glaze over. It's like listening to someone who drones on and on without pause. You may or may not have interesting, compelling arguments, but they're lost in three scrolling pages of solid text (which I eventually stop reading about a third of the way through).

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      I am an atheist only because I refuse to believe in something that has no evidence it exists, I refuse to believe in someone else's fantasy, scam or lie just because a large gullible population does. If I find something that has evidence it works and it contradicts the existence or influence of a god why would I continue to entertain the possibility that this god was the reason for it? There are many claims made in our world about monsters fairies, angels, gods, devils, aliens, etc... why should I believe any of it without evidence. People lie, people tell stories, sometimes people blieve their own lies. And in 2000 years will people worship harry potter or elvis or what have you? I hope everyone here who believes this god nonsense grows up someday.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Whoever or whatever created or caused cancer, malaria, heart disease, stroke, aneurysm, tooth decay, ebola, Centipedes, Stonefish, brown recluse spiders, hurricanes, tsunamis, birth defects, predation, ticks, fleas, lice, etc is a monster, a fiend, and a criminal. And whoever created the evil qualities of human beings such as violence and selfishness is a criminal, a monster, and a fiend. Or the creator of these evils is an insane lunatic or an incompetent idiot who has a stupid side. How can so much evil be produced from an all good source? How can supreme intelligence create stupidity? (Stupid things and stupid people). The creator of tooth decay cannot be an intelligent benevolent designer. Teeth are prone to decay and are unable to heal and cause torturous pain. The misnamed "wisdom teeth" (there's nothing wise about it) is an exampoe of the creator's incompetence, stupidity, insanity, or cruelty and malice. On a philosophic level its a bungle and on a creative level its a bungle and on a moral level its a bungle. The quantities of evil pain and suffering are so numerous that the belief that the creator is all good all mighty all wise cannot hold water. Not long ago I had a bout of intense itching all over my body. It happened just out of nowhere and no known cause. An hour of intense agony. It felt like having a thousand mosquito bites all over the body. PURE TORTURE. Mercifully it disappeared in an hour. As I wrote before the creator could be devoid of a conscience, amoral, and blind to the suffering it caused and allows. The intense itching is the work of the Devil to cause suffering. An evil being or beings exist and whose goals are to inflict physical and mental misery and death. There may well be an evil supernatural being or beings who desire to kill off all humans and animals. If the Devil and his minions killed off everyone and everything then there wouldnt be anyone or anything left to torture and kill. There would be no more victims for the Devil if all life went extinct. An evil being such as the Devil would need to have a continuous supply of living victims to torture and kill. Angra-mainyu/Ahriman gloats over inflicting suffering and death. An evil cruel sadistic diabolic malevolent monster whose cruelty is beyond belief.Angra-mainyu/Ahriman has numerous demons to carry on his evil work. Angra-mainyu/Ahriman isnt a fallen angel but was evil right from the getgo. This fiend needs to be stopped. Why does God allow Angra-mainyu/Ahriman the freedom to cause suffering and evil? Zoroastrianism says that God or Ahura-mazda will one day rid the world of Ahriman and evil this is uncertain. Zoroastrianism is Dualistic and Ahriman's power is equal to God's. Fallen angels or Ahrimans disguise themselves as aliens from other planets claim author Brad Steiger. The Devil and evil are ruling the world. God is deficient and an absentee landlord. Diseases mass starvation mass confusion and division over religion selfishness pollution alienation etc all continue ad nauseam ad infinitum. This is the work of the Devil. The Devil continues to rule the world.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      No God of any kind exists? Im not buying into the atheistic argument. Just because Im disappointed and angry with God doesnt mean Im turning into an atheist. Im neither an atheist nor am I a theist. Theres an in between position which I coin Deficient Theism or as theologians call Process Theology. I believe that some kind of supernatural entity analogous to a God exists but because of rampant evil and suffering this being cannot be all the wonderful things which religion claims Him to be. He not so good or not so moral or not so intelligent or not so powerful. My personal opinion is He is insane for either creating evil and suffering or for allowing it to continue ad nauseam ad infinitum. Dystheism and Deism are two examples of a deficient God. You say no one created evil and suffering. What makes you so sure? How did it come about then? If your answer is the big bang and evolution then what caused the processes of the big bang and evolution? It just all happened by itself by blind chance? No Im not buying that Mr. Skeptic. All this design(albeit often flawed designs) imply an intelligent creative power. Now this intelligent creative power(or God) may be unconscious or mentally blind in what it creates which is one explanation for why it created evil and suffering in the form of cancer, centipedes, and mosquitoes. It may be blind to the suffering it has caused and allows but this intelligent creator may still exist. It may lack a conscious or it may lack a conscience for the evil and suffering it caused and allows. Or it may be conscious and comprehending of the evil and suffering it caused. It maybe partly evil or a Jekyll and Hyde(which describes the Bible God Yahweh) or it may be insane or it may have a stupid side. The creator is full of contradictions contrasts and paradoxes and this reflects the Nature He created AND in the human beings He created. Or the creator is just not smart enough or just not powerful enough to prevent evil and suffering in His creation. One way or the other its a DEFICIENT creator or God and this partly explains why evil and suffering exists and flourishes. Furthermore, there may well be other gods or creators and a Devil or devils and demons and some of these beings or many of them are evil and may be the reason behind Natural evils such as cancer and human evils such as crime. The creation did not just create itself through blind chance. Nope. Im not buying that. The supernatural created or caused both Nature and human beings. You have to take into account causation and complexity within the creation. No way does all this we see is just blind chance creating itself. Both the atheists are wrong and the theists are wrong. Neither one can satisfactorily explain the existence of the world and universe and neither one can satisfactorily explain evil and suffering. Deficient Theism or Process Theology best explains reality and best explains evil and suffering. A deficient God or a limited God and a Devil or demons best explains reality and best explains evil and suffering. The atheists dont see the weakness in their posiition and the religious Theists dont see the weakness in their position. Its also possible that God created the world originally good and at some point in the prehuman, prehistoric world the Devil and demons ruined it or corrupted it. It continues to be ruined and corrupted. To deny that the supernatural exists is to deny the testimony of thousands of people who have seen ghosts and aliens and who have had out of body experiences, near death experiences, clairvoyance, clairaudience, and other paranormal phenomena. I myself have had paranormal experiences. If one wants proof of the supernatural then one of the best pieces of evidence I know of is a photograph taken of the Statue of Liberty by an unknown photographer. It shows an anomalous cloud formation in the sky shaped like a sinister human looking face gazing directly at the Statue. Its no illusion. Its no rorshach test. The left side of the face can clearly be seen. An eye(and an eyeball!) a nose an open mouth, a beard, an ear, and two upcurved horns on top of its head are visible. It has a sinister evil looking expression. Just blind chance Mr. Skeptic? And the fact that it gazes directly at the Statue makes it more real. Explain to me how this is just blind chance Mr. Atheist? Its obviously the work of a conscious intelligent entity. Clouds cant form faces by itself. Christian fundamentalists will say that these are demonic manifestations or made by demons to confound snd confuse people. This photograph is evidence for the supernatural. What is the significance with the Statue of Liberty? Well some believe that the Statue of Liberty is an occult symbol or a Satanic symbol. The Statue represents Queen Semiramis the wife and mother of Nimrod. These two characters were involved with sacrifices, violence, killing, cannibalism, Baal worship, and witchcraft. To see this photo on the Internet type:Satanic face in clouds with Statue of Liberty. And no Im not cowardly as you say. I realize God isnt going to answer my questions. Thats another reason Im angry with Him. But that doesnt mean He doesnt exist. A deficient God doesnt have to answer our questions and doesnt have to prevent evil and suffering. If God answered our questions and if God prevented evil and suffering then He would not be deficient. Do you understand what Im saying? The reasons the world is screwed up and the reason why God doesnt answer our questions or wont answer our questions is because He is DEFICIENT. Just use common sense logic and reasoning and you will see that I am right. My position or Deficient Theism AND an evil Devilish demonic force best explains reality and best explains why the world is the horror movie that it is. Im not cowardly as you wrote. In fact it takes alot of courage and honesty to acknowledge and admit the conclusion that Deficient Theism is the correct explanation. Thus is more intelligent and more realistic than either atheism or traditional theism. Deficient Theism is a depressing belief to hold to but its the most honest and most realistic one. No one has to agree with me. Im modest enough to admit that I could be wrong and the atheists are right or the traditional theists are right. I personally believe my belief is right or is closer to the truth. On this earthly plane we dont know.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      No god of any kind exists, there is no evidence that any of them exists and it is funny that anyone would believe such a thing without looking for evidence that it isn't the product of someone's imagination. As far as all the evil and suffering, no one created evil and suffering. Evil is a word given to describe actions within a society that goes against that particular societies morality, suffering is a word used to describe a pain that is endured for an extended period of time. As long as life exists so does pain. Pain is a way for the living to know what it needs to avoid. And with pain we learn how to survive, we learn how to live better, we learn who to trust and who is out for themselves. It is all explainable you just have to be brave enough to look for the explanations rather than cowardly looking to some nonexistent god to give you the answers, because you will never get them.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      No its not funny Art Black. I dont know why you find humour in serious things. For a skeptic such as you there is no mystery and everything is just fake myths handed down from generation to generation to explain why things are the way they are. Myths are also a part of history. All these mythic gods and demons may not exist as they are exactly described but there may actually exist a god or gods and demons who are roughly analogous to the myths. Joseph Smith was likely a phony. Not everyone is a phony. Yes life is predatory and is a cause of suffering. I know that. The question and mystery is who or what created suffering and evil? Who or what caused suffering and evil and why? For atheists its just the blind impersonal amoral forces of Nature which are to blame. Well who created this blind impersonal amoral cruel cold blooded system? Who is the fiend responsible for creating such a dangerous cruel violent world? Whoever it is He or it is a criminal and a monster. Maybe there is more than one culprit. Angra-mainyu/Ahriman as the Devil of Zoroastrianism is one answer. He is a monster whose cruelty is beyond beleif. A thousand times worse than Hitler. Angra-mainyu/Ahriman enjoys inflicting suffering and death. A cruel sadistic fiend. The question is does he exist and did he really create all thus evil and suffering? We still dont know.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      This is funny because none of it is based on reality. One god doesn't exist, it's a human constructed fantasy to explain things we don't understand or to feel that something is in control over tge universe in which we live. The mythologies are there to explain the suffering which is in fact a product of this universe in the presents of life. Suffering exists because life exists, life feeds on life. We suffer because we struggle to survive the things that cause death, our own inevitable mortality. We construct fantasies of an afterlife because of the conflict of our imaginations with our desire for survival. There is no mystery to it. Why are there similarities to the different stories of creation and the gods we construct? Because we are linked by generations of people whose dissatisfaction with the failures of old gods cause us to imagine newer better gods that we imagine we have forsaken... that and the mixture of conartists whose desire to control and take advantage of others causes them to create gods that they alone speak to that if we are in good favor with these people will help the gods reward us. A good example in modern times is the mormon religion, one created by a convicted conartist which is one of the fastest growing religions in the world. We are fascinated by the gods of old because we recognise the similarities between the myths and wonder of tgeir origin and their possible truth mixed in with our fantasies of new to create new cults based on tge knowledge of possible alien visitation. In all reality all of this is fantasy based on pseudo science speculation.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Yes the Dogon tribe talk of extraterrestrials from the star system Sirius. The Anunnaki originated from Sirius and later also moved to Nibiru and planet earth. Author David Icke also believes in these aliens. Mr. Icke has several books and audiotapes. "Children of the Matrix" is one of his books. He believes that most of these aliens are evil and he believes in shapeshifting reptilians. The reptilians are part reptile/part humanoid intelligent beings who are able to shapeshift into humans and back into reptilian form. Mr. Icke's books talks about Satanic rituals. According to David Icke the Anunnaki, the Illuminati,the Reptilian humanoids, and Satanists are ruling and controlling nearly every aspect of life. Icke is a conspiracy theorist and is controversial. The question of the origin of evil and suffering is still unanswered. Who or what created Natural evils such as cancer malaria centipedes hurricanes tsunamis mosquitoes? Some say its God or Yahweh of the Bible. The Gnostics refer to Yahweh as the Demiurge who is an inferior flawed being who created this screwup for a world. Others say its the Devil and demons who are to blame. There are others who say that the Devil and demons are unable to create anything. They may well be enjoying the suffering that's caused by cancer and mosquitoes but they did not create them. There is yet another line of thought that says that the Devil and demons are unable to create anything but have the ability to change things and corrupt things. In other words the Devil and demons corrupted Nature to cause suffering and death. Originally cancer centipedes and mosquitoes were harmless until the Devil and demons transformed them into dangerous predators diseases parasites and poisoners. In other words the Devil and demons caused Centipedes to become venomous and predatory whereas Centipedes may have been originally harmless. In this line of thought evil in the form of the Devil and demons are unable to create but do have the ability to corrupt. So who is right? How did Natural evils such as cancer arise and who or what created it or who or what caused it? Who or what is to blame for human evil or sin such as violence and selfishness? Part of human behavior is Natural or from Nature. Humans are A part of Nature and not apart from Nature. Where do the Anunnaki aliens fit in all this? Do the Anunnaki aliens such as Enki have anything to do with Natural evils such as cancer? Do the Anunnaki aliens such as Enki have anything ro do with human evil or sin? Author David Icke says yes and he claims these aliens thrive on negative human emotions such as hatred and fear. Will the real Devil stand up? Whoever or whatever created evil and suffering has chosen to keep silent and secret about it. Unlike an artists signature on a painting the creator of cancer centipedes and mosquitoes did not leave his signature and did not leave any kind of clue as to who he is or what he is. A God? A demi-god? A Devil? The Devil? A demon or demons? An Archon od Archons? We still don't know who or what created or caused evil and suffering. We still don't know why people and animals suffer so much. We still don't know what kind of God allows eons of cruelties miseries and horrors to go on ad nauseam ad infinitum.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      They were different, they, didn't have the same or even similar names, they even had different characteristics, associations, personalities etc. However, comparisons are being made that as I read and compare the stories are more a reaching over interpretation, with the added ufo nut mixed in.

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      Karthik Kashyap 4 years ago from India

      artblack01: Thanks for clarifying :) But, can you explain what you actually meant by ".. they had nothing to do with each other" or "... were not named as the devil or Satan.."?

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      karthikkash, I am aware of all that, many of the religions are related by each others legends but what's been said here is a stretch of reality. Especially considering that many of the characters stated here from the Bible were not named as the devil or Satan, they are assumptions.

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      Karthik Kashyap 4 years ago from India

      artblack01: I gather that you do have neither a mind for ancient history, civilizations and mystery nor a mind for research. Else, you would have known that Sumer, Egypt, Greece and India share similar history at least more than 5,000 years ago. There is also a reason why Sanskrit is called the root of all Indo-European languages. Because Sanskrit was one of the first languages spoken on earth.

      anonymous: You are partly correct. However, Enki/Ea/Oannes/Satan were not evil as you yourself see it. Because, if Anu was equivalent to Jehowah, then he must be really evil to destroy entire humanity while Ea and his gods who rebelled against him obviously would be the good guys, because they were the ones who wanted to save humanity (Oannes in Babylon and Vishnu in India are both the 'mighty fish' gods who saved humanity from destruction). If you look at it, they were just the directors of an organization who rebelled against bad corporate management. And if Anu was indeed Jehovah, he is a true slave-master and evil, because all he wanted was slaves. When the work was over and when he saw that humans were growing in power and started 'thinking and reasoning', it would be a huge problem for the gods. As such he thought of taking control by either destroying humans or by enslaving them. If you have seen the monotheistic religions, you will be severely punished if you questioned the will of god. That is quite evident in itself what Jehovah wanted.

      In Hindu mythology, Vishnu is the god who is known to be responsible for sustaining human life. Also Ea/Enki was the scientist who created humanity. If Anu was the one who wanted to destroy humanity, Enki/Vishnu was the one who saved humanity.

      As I also said, the original text of "fallen angels" didn't mean so The exact translation was "those who from the heavens came down". This doesn't mean that they were thrown out. It means that they came from somewhere else to earth and this unknown place was generally called heaven. There was no concept of 'hell' in any of the ancient civilizations.

      Sitchin was partly correct in his translations. However, he was not an expert in Ancient Sumerian language. Hence he made some mis-interpretations. The aliens didn't come from Nibiru (planet-X may exist). They came from stars on the Orion's belt, especially Sirius A and B. That is the reason, ancient mythologies in India, Egypt, Sumer and an African tribe called Dogon talk so much about Sirius and the neighboring stars. That is also the reason why the pyramids of Giza and Mexico are in the form of Orion's belt (Sirius A, B and C). It also makes sense as Sirius is one of the nearest star systems to our solar system (8 light years).

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Its hilarious? I don't see anything funny here. I don't know what tgey is or if that's a typing error. You're entitled to your opinion and Im entitled to mine. Some say Enki/Ea is Satan while others say he isn't. Some say Enki/Ea is good and some say hes evil. Its a convoluted mess because there are several names for the same being and because different authors and different books disagree with each other. One source says that Enki was the son of Anu. Anu is equated here with Yahweh the Bible God. Anu wanted to wipe out humanity with a flood. Enki was a scientist who created modern humans by using his own DNA. The planet Nibiru or Planet X is where the Annunnaki reside. The Annunnaki came to earth 450,000 years ago to mine for gold. They needed slaves. Homo erectus was a hominid which the Annunnaki transformed into modern humans 300,000 years ago. Or 445,000 years ago. Im not sure. Author Zecharia Sitchin believed in these ancient aliens and wrote about Enki. The aliens are enemies among themselves and enemies with humans. The Annunnaki are basically evil cruel selfish. Some see these aliens as fallen angels or demons under Satan's authority. My belief is I don't know. Its like a jigsaw puzzle. How does one collate all this information and make sense out of it? Obviously theres lots of reading to do.

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      artblack01 4 years ago from New Mexico

      This thread is hilarious, people have funny interpretations for pre judeo/christian religions. Comparing other religions to this one is a stretch, especially since tgey had nothing to do with each other.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Ive read that Enki and Ea are the same being and is the real identity of Satan. Satanism goes back to 15,000 B.C. or 17,000 years ago which is prehistory. Enki or Satan was originally worshipped as a goat. Enki has two forms a goat and a fish. Enki taught people farming, science, culture, and lovemaking. Sumer or Iraq was the birthplace of Enki. Enki is comsidered to be a friend of humanity but an enemy of Christianity. Enki personifies life, replenishment, fertility, water, and freedom. Enki also takes the form of a serpent. Enki appeared in the Garden of Eden hundreds of thousands of years ago to give knowledge to Adapu or Adam but was foiled by Enlil who wanted to keep humanity ignorant and enslaved. Enki's mission to give immortality to humanity was foiled as rival gods opposed this. Enki isn't a personification of evil but it is an opponent of Judaism and Christianity. Christianity called him Satan and gave him evil horrible attributes. Now I don't know what to make of this interpretation of history and religion. Some people such as author David Icke believe that aliens from other planet systems and other galaxies came to earth as "gods" and one of them was Enki or Satan. The Pleaidies star system is where some of these aliens come from. The Annunaki aliens are tall reptilians who are basically evil and who control much of religion politics and the media. The planets they come from are light years away and would be impossible for man-made rockets to reach. The aliens have the technology to reach earth and they are also believed to be able to come and go from the planet to earth through interdimensional doorways. It sounds like science fiction but the world and universe is strange and unknowable. Part human and part reptile like hybrids describe some of these aliens. Theres a lot that's unexpalinable. Author David Icke is fascinating.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Karthikkash you pointed out that Satanism is the first religion which started tens of thousands of years ago. This would be prehistory or before written history. For your specific belief then you do not believe that Satan is the Devil or a Devil because you believe that Satan is good whereas the Devil by definition is an evil being. It seems there is more than one Satan just as there is more than one Devil. Traditional religious teaching and Christian theology teaches of a single supernatural source of evil or Devil which is the Satan in Job and in the New Testament. All other lesser evil beings or demons are under the authority of Satan. This is what Christianity teaches whether its true or false. Does Satan or demons create Natural evil such as cancer, malaria, hurricanes, and Centipedes? Centipedes are those venomous arthropods whose bites cause unimaginable pain for days and weeks. Do Satan and demons cause Human evil or sin such as violence, crimes, wars, and genocides? Is Satan and demons the enemy of God? You claim that Satan and demons are good and are the friends of humans. Osiris is Satan? I knew that Set and Satan maybe related. Set is sort of a nasty character. Set is said to have killed Osiris. Is it possible that Satan is both good and evil as is the Bible God Yahweh and as is Kali? Its confusing to decipher who is the good deity and who is the bad one as there is more than one name for the same being and theres so much contradiction disagreement division and confusion between different authors and different books. The most evil version of the Devil is probably the Persian Angra-mainyu or Ahriman who is the embodiment of all evil. Ahriman is super duper evil. Ahriman especially enjoys inflicting suffering by creating a legion of diseases, snakes, mosquitoes, scorpions, intense cold and intense heat, and death. Ahriman is a cruel sadistic fiend. Its speculation that whoever wrote the book of Job was influenced by the Persian Angra-mainyu/Ahriman. Note the Satan in Job is similar to Ahriman in physically torturing and killing. Satan in other parts of the Bible is better known as liar, tempter, deceiver, and prosecutor. In addition to creating Natural evils Ahriman also corrupts people to sin. The God of Zoroastrianism, Ormazd or Ahura-mazda is said to one day in the future defeat Ahriman and rid the world of evil. Ormazd is a lot more respectable than the Bible God and doesn't have the long list of atrocities committed by the Bible God. Its a very interesting subject. Thank you for reading.

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      Karthik Kashyap 4 years ago from India

      As you said anonymous, there are different types of devils.. There is undoubtedly evil lurking around somewhere that wants to destroy humanity. Different mythologies, especially the eastern ones always talk about the constant wars between the gods and demons in the skies. No doubt, there are different kinds of evil beings. And you never know, one of the devils may himself have tricked humans into believing that he was the one and only true god who created heaven and earth. I don't know how else one can explain the cruel and carelessness of that god. It is either that he doesn't care where the humans go or he himself is instigating every evil. Either ways, it is serving the ultimate goal of the devil: to destroy humans and the earth.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      The Bible God's cruelty, stupidity, incompetence, negligence, and insanity contribute to people either becoming agnostics, atheists, heretics, apostasy, paganism, demonology, devil worship, and Satanism. This God is such a FAILURE AND DISAPPOINTMENT that many people are losing interest in Him and are turning away from Him and He is too stupid to see this. Or maybe He purposefully neglects people so they will turn away from Him. What does that say about His character? This mentally challenged and morally challenged God creates or He allows the conditions for people to turn away from Him and to rebel against Him. What does He think is going to happen when He abandons us in a cruel dangerous world with a sinful nature and with flawed brains and flawed bodies? Its no surprise at all that people are going to lose interest in Him or disbelieve in Him or even get angry at Him. He DRIVES people to disbelieve in Him and He drives people to rebel against Him with His negligence and cruelty. Hes deadbeat. Hes an absentee landlord for a God who is so remote aloof and disconnected from His creatures. Its pathetic. This God doesn't even have the courtesy to explain to us why the world is in the mess that it is and wont tell us how to interpret the Bible. The Bible is a vague unclear contradictory mess and has caused endless disagreement division contradiction confusion aggravation alienation. Why wont God speak up and clear up this confusion? Why keep silent and secret about it? The Bible God behaves like a murderous psychopath. Irrational, insane, unreasoning, unjust, unkind, unwise, unforgiving.Millions of people and millions of animals wild and tame suffer and die from diseases starvation accidents pollution disasters and from human cruelty and negligence and this cruel stupid God allows it. Im embarrassed and ashamed by a God this cruel, this stupid, and this negligent. I have a strong feeling He is insane. Yahweh is evil and Yahweh is insane. So the creation is screwed and the Devil gets to rule the world. What a dunce we have for a God. A clam has more sense than this Bible God. The average person is more moral and wiser than this Bible God. I can picture Satan laughing at this stupid incompetent God and laughing at humanity. God's stupidity is the Devil's opportunity. We worship a deadbeat for a God Christians. We may as well be praying to a tree trunk. Look at the generally miserable condition the world is in. If God doesn't heal this cursed broken crearion soon then happiness in this world isn't going to be worth a can of beans. Heart disease, stroke, aneurysm, malaria, tooth decay, mass starvation, snakebites, scorpion stings, birth defects, earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, famine, pestilence, pollution, overpopulation, grievous accidents, and horrific crimes continue with no end in sight. Either God allows this or He is not in control of what's going on in the world. And all this because Hes still angry for Adam and Eve disobeying Him by eating a forbidden fruit 6000 to 30,000 years ago. This God is punishing everyone everything everywhere for Adam and Eves sin. Its irrational, immature, childish, petty, insane, unjust, stupid. And most of all its CRUEL. This God needs to grow up for a change. This Adam and Eve story is stupid, childish, insane, unjust, and cruel. It makes God look like a cruel mean jerk who recklessly blindly indiscriminately punishes. He PUNISHES PUNISHES PUNISHES and His punishments are horrificly cruel beyond imagining. He has an eternal torture chamber for billions of people in th next life wjere unsaved sinners will be burning like charcoals forever. Its beyond sick. Its beyond monstrous. So humans are born incurably sick(from Adam and Eve's sin) and are threatened with death and eternal damnation to get well. Its insanity. This God is punishing us for Adam and Eves sin and is punishing us for Satan's sin and is punishing us for being what NATURE made us to be. No one has total free will. Nature nurture genetics brain chemistry and environmental conditions all have a bearing on human behavior whether bad or good. Its a SIN for God to allow so much sin. Its a SIN to allow thousands to millions of years of sin, suffering, death, and evil. This is s CRIME. Its a disgrace and an embarrassment. I prefer to believe in the God of Dualism rather than the God of Monism. The God of Dualism is weak and not in control of what's going on in the world but at least Hes good and sane. The God of Monism on the other hand is cruel insane stupid and powerful. Goodness and reasoning is more important to me than power. I would rather have a good reasoning sane God who is weak instead of a cruel insane stupid God who is powerful. Either way its a deficient God and either way its a win for the Devil(whatever his name maybe) and either way the creation is screwed and ruined. Making everyone and everything suffer and die for Adam anx Eve's sin is the height of cruelty insanity stupidity injustice incompetence negligence. The Devil rules this horror movie for a world and not a loving God.

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      anonymous 4 years ago

      Satan is famous for being a liar and deceiver. Another one of Satan's deceptions is to make people believe he's not a bad guy but actually a good caring person or deity. Satan can be anything he wants to be and he can be anything people want him to be. If one is attracted to an evil Satan with horns he will happily oblige. If one wants a "good" Satan then he will play the part. If one wants a morally neutral Satan such as that of Anton Lavey then he can play that role just as well. Lavey's Satan is a non-deity or represents the dark forces of Nature such as lust, greed, selfishness, revenge. Lavey sees Satan as a force of Nature and his version of Satan resembles a sleazy man in a sleazy bar or casino drinking alcohol with loose women. This describes Lavey himself. Anton Lavey invented a Satan who looks like him and who lives like him. One reason why people turn to Satanism is because God is such a failure, deadbeat, and absentee landlord. God fails to provide for the needs of people and mainstream religions such as Christianity fail to provide for the needs of people. Not everyone is able to lead a masochistic life of abstinence, denial and suffering like Jesus and not everyone wants to live like a religious fanatic and martyr like Jesus. God expects moral perfection from imperfect flawed creatures. God expects us to not sin when oir Natures are PRONE to sin. If God wants people to be perfect and without sin then why didn't He make us that way? If God hates human sin so much then He would not be allowing it for thousands of years and He would not have allowed Adam and Eve'sl sin to be passed on to all future unborn humans snd He would not be allowing Satan and demons the freedom to corrupt human beings. Some people believe that God allowed sin and evil in the world so He can send Jesus to earth to atone for sins. INSANE. This is sick and stupid. The Bible God is a masochist as well as being a cruel monster.k