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Good and Bad: The Double Standard of God As I See It

Updated on May 29, 2015

The question this hub is based off of can be found at: "What Is The Best Evidence for the Existence of God?".

One of the responses to said question was that the complexity of life as a whole is the perfect example of a divine creator and that there is absolutely no way for us to have been created by anything other than such. To me that just sounds like "I can't imagine it, so it isn't possible", which is a rather poor excuse to deny the possibility of anything. I can imagine just fine the possibility of there being a god and there not being one. The latter seems to have more credibility behind it, but ultimately we don't know for certain.


You can go look for yourself for the specifics, but eventually the topic turned to thanking god for the good but not blaming him for the bad. The logic that was put forth to me was somewhere along the lines that God created us and pretty much left us to our own devices, and as a result he is blameless for anything bad that happens.

Seeing as how almost any Christian I have seen talk about their beliefs view God as a father figure, that is already a false statement. If you are watching your kid walk towards a fire and do nothing to stop them, are you blameless for letting your kid getting burned or even dying? Any court system in the world probably wont think that you are and hold you accountable.

I was also told that anything bad that happens in the world is the result of sin, which ultimately is caused by Satan. Again, that sounds like an excuse to not be held responsible for anything bad you might do. Stole an old lady's purse and kicked a puppy? Blame it on Satan for whispering in your ear at night.
The problem I have with this logic: wasn't Satan created by God? If he was, then ultimately God is responsible for letting sin into the world, and even more responsible for punishing people for something he not only let happen but doesn't really seem keen on stopping. I find it rather strange that that doesn't ever seem to cross the minds of people who say God created everything, which includes Satan/sin/jumping wolf spiders.

To focus solely on the double standard, the consensus was that God created the things that make life enjoyable and should be thanked for it. Makes enough sense until you flip it and people lose their minds. Somehow the creator of everything you experience, which includes the good and the bad, is held completely blameless for the bad that happens which he was the creator of.
Doesn't make any sense no matter how I look at it, and the unwillingness of people to admit they accept a double standard doesn't help matters much. Instead they say that since its our free will that leads us to sin God has nothing to do with it because he cannot interact with free will. By that same token, I would imagine that God doesn't have anything to do with the good that happens in the world either since its all a result of someone's free will.
An Example? A patient has a terminal heart problem, but after a successful heart transplant they are able to live without worry. If the doctor hadn't decided to become a doctor, they wouldn't have been able to perform such a life saving operation. If the parents of the doctor hadn't decided to have a kid from the start, the doctor never would have been born. If the person the heart came from hadn't decided to be an organ donor, that heart wouldn't have been available to save another life to begin with. All of these choices were made using free will were they not? Where does God fit into that in a way that wouldn't also make him accountable for creating the terminal heart problem?

My two cents and all. I don't particularly think anyone can explain away that double standard without creating a whole slew of other issues, but if you feel up for it be my guest.

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    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      Its kinda amazing that God gets credit for the good and not the bad, as if this isn't his world after all. Pretty sure he's meant to be in charge of everything, so if the system he designed sucks how is that our fault?

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 23 months ago

      I really have no idea. I kept getting an analogy thrown at me that if an inventor creates a pan, has someone buy it to then have someone else dent that pan, does the buyer blame the creator of the pan for denting it instead of the actual person who did?

      That would work if we weren't talking about god, who supposedly created the pan (mankind I would assume) as well as the person who dented the pan (Satan). If god is the creator of both...then hes ultimately responsible for the pan getting dented. I could relent on what degree, but you simply can't get around that in the end.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Link, I think what KissandTales was trying to say (and I cannot speak for her) is that God created everything, but let everything take its course. God let all have free will, but with free will, comes the temptation to do what is contrary to God's will. Anything that is contrary to God's will is sin. There had to be sin if free will was involved.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      TIten, As an example you get hired as an Executive manager from an Owner or the CEO, you have been entrusted over your Department. If you have an employee that does not like you and starts to steal, and starts to sabatoge the running of your division by causing caos. Is this the CEO'S fault? No each person is responsible for his performance. The CEO gave you all Jobs.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Right, Kiss and Tales--Satan, who was Lucifer, was given a job. He messed it up himself. Good analogy.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 23 months ago

      "God created everything, but let everything take its course"

      Already showed that I understood that. Its in the second paragraph actually. Directly after that I laid out why it doesn't make any sense to still hold him completely blameless.

      "Satan, who was Lucifer, was given a job. He messed it up himself."

      Okay lets go with this. Lucifer goofed and is now Satan, who you believe is the cause of sin. If god knows that Satan is purposely trying to get people to go against his will, what the hell sense does it make to punish the people for that rather than punish Satan directly? You act as if its such a clear choice between god's will and satan's will and that its clearly all our fault for choosing wrong when its obviously not clear at all.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Because people are making the choice to follow Satan! Satan is just the tempter! And Satan will be punished, along with the ones who choose to yield to his tempting!

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Mmmkay, so rather than punish satan now (or better yet, from the start) and drastically reduce the number of people who fall into his temptations and avoid having to punish said people (that he loves) for eternity, god decides to wait and increase the body count.

      Oh yeah makes perfect sense. Even more so when he doesn't bother to give anyone a heads up that satan is tricking them but punishes them anyway.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      God is helping Satan out, and sending a strong delusion to weed out those who aren't faithful enough to stick with God to the end.

      There's also that bizarre verse where God let's Satan out of Hell to tempt people even after he has ushered in the New heaven and New Earth.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      So god is a CEO and he trains (creates) a Satanic COO (Chief Operational Officer) and this COO goes around wrecking the entire company. Why doesn't the CEO fire the COO immediately before he screws up the whole planet?

      Oh, that's right the god CEO just drowns the whole planet, but promotes the satan COO to continue mucking everything up for thousands of years. At which time the god CEO will destroy the world again and the assistant Jesus CEO will choose "some" special people to come live with him in his eternal golden streets neighborhood while they laugh and laugh at all the poor "sinners" that quite literally got fired for no good reason.

      Yep, it all make gobbeltygook sense when you THINK about it!

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      Because Satan makes a good scapegoat for the CEOs horrible failures, if anything goes wrong you can always blame him, especially if you allow him to go out and corrupt all your other employees, then you can hire your son via some divine nepotism and fire him for the misdeeds of all your other employees. Those that become loyal to you you can keep, everyone else is not only fired but forced to be unemployed and starving for the rest of eternity.

      And this plan is meant to be a demonstration of the CEOs LOVE!

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      After all, the CEO is in CHARGE of EVERYTHING! He's the damn CEO for god's sake!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Again you TIten have created another story, My story just says the CEO hires a top manager, and that manager is in charge of his division, if the employees do not like him and create caos , steal, and sabatoge situations . How is it the CEO fault. Just because somebody decides he does not like his Job anymore and causes problems does not mean the CEO is wrong about anything.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      And Austin the CEO hired management . That is what he is paid for to do his Job.

      The CEO does not need a manager if he does everything.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      I was merely adding on to the analogy that the others had started. The idea is that God is the CEO and Satan the COO. So God is allowing Satan to lead astray every employee, employees who the CEO gave poor or contradictory directions to, and some employees he gave directions to at all. It is the CEO who started the company and set up the parameters and even instilled in the employees their desire to disobey (free will).

      Then the CEO creates a bullshit loophole by having his son take the blame for the misdeeds of the employees and demanding that everyone love him, or else its punishable by eternal unemployment in the darkest most horrible slum imaginable, built by the CEO himself of course.

      It's a set up, a scam. Christianity lies and tells you you're diseased and then sells you the cure.

    • feenix profile image

      feenix 23 months ago

      Kiss and Tales, Stargrrl, get out of this place fast, because if you don't, you're going to end up getting mired in a terrible, muddy swamp.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Feenix, what are your thoughts on the double standard mentioned in the hub? Do you agree/disagree? Why/why not?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Feenix you are right , As you I have experience your words of example.

      But It is one thing I am very sure and 100% with no doubt you can not stop or change truth. No matter who does not accept it.

      And do that simply means we are as Jesus experience, he could not change the minds of those that killed him. But the truth still stands

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Absolutely, Kiss and Tales. Satan is so crafty that he has made excuses for every type of argument possible. His greatest achievement is to convince people that Christianity is a scam, and he has done a great job at getting humans to make serious mistakes in the history of Christianity and formation of religion to turn others away from the true God. Many problems arising out of the religion of Christianity are not the fault of God's--there the fault of humans. People want to blame God on the bad stuff--but that is not Him. He has sent us extraordinary people and events to convince us of His existence. In my latest hub, I address how Christians are left here on a fallen Earth to bring the news of Jesus and God to the world--we are the lights of the world.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Thank you stargrrl, as lights we are to reflect truth , to help many understand that this life is not the true life, this is a small step into the real life, but we need to be educated before stepping in, that means being a good listener, just think of the many Jesus taught

      But they did not listen.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 23 months ago

      You heard it here first ladies and gents. "Thinking" is satan's way of turning people away from god.

      You can strike the bloody history of christianity from the record, the one contained within the bible itself as well as the documented holy wars of "recent" times.

      If you guys can't answer simple questions and address contradictions of your own faith, that's not us giving in to satans plot, that's your own faulure in communicating what you believe to be gods word. I find it rather audacious to blame others for you not being able to properly make your case. Gives us even more of a reason to simply not believe you have any truth to your claims.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Let's do the math. Christians have been trying to prove their gods exist for over 2,000 years now. And finally, their numbers are dwindling! It's about time!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      The numbers of people I know that are learning and accepting is rising, not by your records Austin, people really want to know the truth , and they receive it based on heart conditions, many will not for the same reason. For they already convenience themselves there is no God, there is no truth. So it will not be for them.

      Even Jesus proved this point.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 23 months ago

      The number of religious people in the world is slowly rising. Dunno if its specifically christians or just overall religious, and im not sure if that number includes places where you are required by law to identify with a religion.

      As far as the US goes, the number of christians are not rising, at least at not any notable rate. The number of atheist/unaffiliated have jumped through the roof in recent years however, though the total number is still rather low.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      @K and T

      "For they already convenience themselves there is no God, there is no truth. So it will not be for them."

      I didn't convince myself. I was raised in a fundamentalist household and believed in the Bible, in Jesus, and even spoke in tongues. What convinced me to doubt Christianity was reading the entirety of the Bible in my late teens. Then I researched how the Bible came together and what was thrown out. The more I looked into it the more I doubted Christianity until I was convinced it was all man-made and not at all inspired by a God.

      Most people who are unbelievers used to believe in one way or another. So no, its not some hardness of heart where people are closed off to the idea from the start.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      after reading Catherine Giordano's excellent hub ( https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Polls-Sho... ), I'm pretty sure that religion is swiftly becoming an endangered species. Even clergy are becoming agnostic or even atheistic and they preach from the bible like a history teacher would.

      But, for sure many of our own generations are still stuck with our indoctrinated ideas about religion. And it is a fallacy that scientists are religious or spiritual. True science questions everything!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Only GOD Almighty invites by the heart which no man can read, but for some people they speak from the heart and make their possition known. He Judges and welcomes who he wishes.

      Mt 25:34“Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world.

      We do not envite our self, neither did the deciples.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      I read Catherine's hub too, and while it is well written, it was based on ONE study. And even if it were the only truth, it is only evidence that we are living in the end times, where in Revelation it is predicted that many will not believe. And how do you explain all the world events happening today, especially in the Middle East? Many things stated in Revelations is coming to pass. All the earthquakes, storms, etc. Many coming in increased increments. Everything in the Middle East is coming to a head. It is only a matter of time before one of the countries helping them, like Russia, attack. And I don't trust China or North Korea either.

      If anything, the decrease in religion is further proof that the bible is real.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      @K and T

      So not only does God require people have faith, not only does God hide himself away so that there is no scientific evidence, but now I also need an INVITE from God?

      No thanks, I'll think pass on this exclusive club by way of avoiding its irrational beliefs.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      God does not choose to hide Himself away, you just choose not to see Him. He probably did invite you, but you declined.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 23 months ago

      The poll was only based on one study...

      Modern christianity is based on ONE book, the bible, which is a collection of stories written decades if not centuries after the fact and doesn't seem to have anything outside of itself to cross reference. Yet you don't question it.

      Whereas the poll was taken recently, im sure it has references and citations on the main site for legitimacy, and was conducted by an organization whos job it is to spend money and gather people's opinion...but you question the whole thing because its only one study and/or you disagree with it...

      Sigh.

      And as for the predictions, i would hazard a guess and say they are so vague they were bound to come true, whether it be a year after it was made or 10,000 years later. Don't know much about the predictions, so i'll leave it to someone else.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Jer 29:13“‘And YOU will actually seek me and find [me], for YOU will search for me with all YOUR heart.

      Am 5:4“For this is what Jehovah has said to the house of Israel, ‘Search for me, and keep living.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      "Every seven years the Pew Research Center conducts a massive study about religion called “The Religious Landscape Study.” The 2014 Study shows some surprising changes in religion in the United States. "

      No, it's not just one study.

      And the SAME events have been happening in the Middle East for THOUSANDS of years! So, no, it's not the "end times". It's just the same old religions fighting over which god is bigger and better.

      WTF? an "invite" from a god? Wow, too cute.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      You say modern Link God has always been around , it is people who give attention to it from their own Generations of time. The bible is a book compiled of letters, history, also Phophesy fulfilled and still yet to be fulfilled.

      Cuneiforms, papas, animal skin written on, and copies to numerous to count

      Has, preserve the writings down to the end, we are living out the last part of Revelations. All this time ever thing written has been moving on in time

      And many are still stuck on one subject.

      that is, why the end will catch people off guard they will say the world has been the same, until it's time to close the final chapter of all being fulfilled.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      "He probably did invite you, but you declined."

      Yeah, all those nights in tears as a teenager begging Christ to touch my heart and change me was me DECLINING his invitation.

      It might make you feel better to think that atheists are rejecting God based on something emotional or faith-like but that simply isn't the case. I never rejected God, I welcomed God and searched for the true God of the Universe once I realized how much religious bullshit there was. I wanted to cut out the middleman and contact God directly and when I found nothing and continued to research I eventually realized I had no rational reason to believe anymore, I was no longer convinced that a God existed.

      I went from Christian, to Deist, to pantheist, to atheist as a natural progression of honest soul searching and critical thinking.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      People do reject his presence, but they do it by how they live as well, many pray and believe in God , but their heart is far from him , he knows these things about us when we do not know our own inner beings.

      He is a just and perfect being , we are flawed because of Adam so mentally our thinking is not in good reason.

      He came to you on his terms not yours

      And he can still be found before the end.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Because clearly it makes more sense to reveal himself to someone at a time when they are most likely not to accept him, versus a time when they were desperately asking for proof and would have been a devout believer for life no questions asked had he done so.

      When people say stuff like that, really all it sounds like is they believe they were special enough to be shown a sign, and anyone who wasn't shown the sign stoutly refused to accept the sign or purposely chose not to see it. Hugely arrogant.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      @K and T

      I'm not going to attempt to argue you out of your theology but understand that I don't base my beliefs on feelings or faith but on evidence and reason and skeptical inquiry.

      If there is a God chances are it knows where to find me, I'm not going to grovel or subjugate myself or force myself to believe something for which there is no evidence or rational justification.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      As an example the Ups comes ,you say I am not expecting a package, it must be for another so you ignore the knock.

      People reject his approach and only accept their standards of how they want to receive him.

      Yet that is not his channel you can tune in from as example.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      As an example did the deciples look for Jesus. No he found each one , like an envite he says come be my follower.

      Mt 4:18 Walking alongside the Sea of

      Galʹi·lee, he saw two brothers, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen.

      Lu 18:22 After hearing that, Jesus said to him: “There is yet one thing lacking about you: Sell all the things you have and distribute to poor people, and you will have treasure in the heavens; and come be my follower.”

      envite. Not forced .

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Titen,

      I don't know what to say when you tell me that you've searched desperately for God, that you spent nights crying to Him to reveal Himself to you. I think K&T was on to something when she told you that God will reveal Himself to you on His terms, not yours. I do know this:

      We were created to seek God, and God wants to be found. What were you specifically looking for--what kind of a sign? Were you looking for tangible proof, or were you hoping He'd contact you the way He did with Abraham and Moses? I don't know that that is the way God works.

      Remember we are born dead. The fact is, we cannot seek God, and we have no desire to seek God, apart from His initiative. The fact is, when we are born, we are born with spirits that are dead. We are separated from God. We have no heart for God, no interest in God, no inclination toward God. We cannot seek Him apart from being quickened and awakened by His Spirit to seek after Him.

      If you are a child of God, it's because God first sought for you and gave you a desire to seek Him. If God didn't first seek us, no one would ever seek after Him. In fact, we are prone to seek everything but Him. But the good news is that we have a seeking God.

      I think you gave up too soon. I think God is trying to call you back. Why do I think that? He's put people in your life (even if it is only via the internet) who really care about your peace and salvation. I pray for you. I get the sense (and maybe I am wrong) from reading your poems and your bio on your Hubpages profile that you are not such a happy person. I want you to be happy. I don't think you can find happiness going about the way you are going. Sure, you probably aren't sad all the time, but for the most part, you can't be happy within. You may say you feel great now that you don't have to worry about eternal damnation, but is that happiness real?

      I only have this to say: Don't give up. God has the power to change your heart. Let him. Have faith in what you heard is not possible.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 23 months ago

      Did God not say He created "everything," both good & evil? (Is 45:7) At the time of creation, He knew "mere-man" would fall. He had a game plan (His Will) from the beginning! The plan was for us "to fall" (for He knew Adam & Eve would “fall” prior to creation) so that we would give allegiance to Him for all He has done for us by "believing" and having "faith" in the Unseen which enables us to return to Him!

      You know we all have experienced a feeling of "emptiness" at one time during life which is a longing for "reconnection" to our Creator! It can't be solved by materialism, by falling in love, by power in this world, by popularity, by drugs or alcohol only by "reconnecting" to the Creator!

      You can study as many "books" as you like, you can discover what has been "taken out" and what has been "added," you can then come to the conclusion that "there is no God for there is “no scientific evidence," based on your studies. However, in order to fill that “empty spot,” you must “reconnect” to the Creator. When one is "separated from God," although you may have accomplished everything, there is still a feeling of “emptiness!”

      You may not have reached this point in your life but, keep living, after you have done all the research seeking "scientific evidence," after you have gained materialistic items and as much knowledge as you desire, after you have accomplished everything you "desire" based on "self effort" and that feeling of "emptiness" remains, who will you turn to? Because of "self effort," health, knowledge that you may “now” possess, you may say, "Not God," but keep living!

      One of the greatest "benefits" a "believer" has is the Holy Spirit Who "leads and guides us" into ALL truth! Unbelievers may call it intuition, but we call it the Holy Spirit for it guides us into "righteousness!" Consequently, no matter how much has been "added" or "taken away, the Holy Spirit will let us know!

      Now concerning birth defects: Scripture says in Romans 8:28 "All things work together for good to them that love God ...who are called according to HIS purpose." Did you notice in John 9:1-3, when Jesus’ disciples saw a blind man and asked, “Master, who did sin, this man or his parents? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents, but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.” Notice: “But that the works of God should be made manifest in him.” So you see, it is as Romans 8:28 say, “…according to HIS purpose.”

      II Chronicles 7:14 says, “If my people, who are called by my name, shall HUMBLE themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” And fill that “empty spot!”

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Excellent point, Norine. Glad you jumped into this. I hope Titen reads what you wrote (and mine too).

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      To TIten, just because you decided to give up on your terms does not mean there is no God, example gold miners pan and pan, dig and dig looking for gold, did they give up in hours, or months and maybe years No, those who endured struck gold.

      But they put faith in action . And they gave it all they got in being patient

      Also we can take Jesus example when he arrived , Did he assume everyone was in a good relationship with the Heavenly Father , No , for he was known as Rabbi, meaning teacher. He went and taught daily most of his life here , he was very concern for others preaching to thousands. I am sure that many had issues, just like yourself before he arrived

      And that was an opportunity to be blessed directly .but for those who did not experience that time or period of his presence , still will be able to benefit fully

      Very soon, Jesus is sitting in Kingly power

      and he is enviting. many to become citizens under his administration.

      Being educated is what he providing

      Yet people confuse this with bad religion

      And miss out on the envite.

      True there are many counterfeit religions

      but the truth is there like the miners gold.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Your ideas of the "good" god did is to have his spirit impregnate a young woman so that he/Jesus could experience what it was like to be human? And then to get himself/Jesus tortured and killed so he could experience a hideous death? So he could "save" people from himself?

      Why not just be nice in the first place and create heaven for everybody without all the muss and fuss of thousands of years of evil?

      You don't know who or what a god really is, do you? You are just in love with the idea of heaven. The idea that someday, you too will look like Kim Kardashian with some kind of perfect body that never hurts or grows old and wrinkled. Yea, that's not going to happen.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Your story of how you see it is distorted,

      And you are far from the truth of the situation. You pick pieces of important subjects and change the picture and meaning of what this is all about.

      Sad you allow these conclusions

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Yeah, Austinstar, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about, and you are way off base. You're not even in left field--you're in the parking lot.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 23 months ago

      I would prefer it if we could keep the potential condescending and arrogant assumptions to a minimum.

      So far, between the 3 non believers here, no one has claimed god doesn't exist as fact, yet 3 people take it upon themselves to proclaim we are simply blind or lost and that god is trying to reach out to us.

      Clearly because god touched your lives in such an obvious way, only someone not willing to accept him wouldn't be able to see the signs and are not as special as you to be able to comprehend such a gift.

      ^The above is exactly what the 3 of you sound like, and you never address any questions without putting forth that logic or throwing a bible verse into the mix, knowing that non of us even see it as accurate because you couldn't prove it was.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      I am not trying to be arrogant or condescending. If I came off that way, I deeply apologize.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      I would really appreciate it if they put their thoughts and ideas down in their own words without copying/pasting. Everyone's interpretation of the bible is different. So it's best to state your ideas clearly without using the copy/paste function.

      Quotes should be for emphasis only. Not for trying to prove your own point. It it is your point, it can't be a quote.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Link again that does not mean you may never experienced what others have, but I think this whole subject is to say our experience is real and a witness to you and others, we can not be you and you not us, but I speak to declare good News while it is open, that good News is that there is an envite to be citizens, as TIten says he asked but many are declining.

      Based off of their personal issues.

      If I come off arrogant to you then I certainly did not mean to, because this is not my message but I am to share it no matter the outcome .peace to you I have said enough.

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      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      @K and T

      "just because you decided to give up on your terms does not mean there is no God"

      I never said that it does mean there is no god. I do not consider myself a believer in the proposition that there are absolutely no gods anywhere. I do find all the gods mankind has ever believed in to be very likely fictional.

      I realized, over time and with research, that there was no rational justification for believing and that there are some gods that should be counted out of the running entirely, depending on how they are defined especially.

      To fix your analogy, imagine if instead of digging for gold you were told to dig for a supernatural form of ore that everyone around you believed in but no one could give you evidence that it was actually out there. And you'd talk to old miners with a glint in their eye who assured you it was out there but couldn't ever show it to you because its intangible and you can only get real true proof of it after you die.

      Now imagine running into other miners who tell you the first set are wrong and tell you about another separate form of supernatural ore that's different.

      All these different religions pulling in different directions without any good evidence backing up their beliefs. And some of them are so preoccupied with their supernatural version of ore they miss out on the beauty of the here and now.

      Those who seek too hard for the reality of magic miss out on the magic of reality.

      In many ways I never gave up the search for God, I still talk to believers every day, they have every opportunity to make their case and convince me. It is the self-deception of faith that I gave up.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      TIten I pray that what you need and want in truth comes and you can experience Joy in finding it. Thank you for sharing your experience here, Link thank you for your question you are a good thinker.

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      Norine Williams 23 months ago

      Star: Thanks! We basically said the same thing: "God's Hand is still stretched out" (Is 9:17;21;10:4). God is trying to tell Titen something by placing us in his life. "Hopefully" he will "listen" to his "inner voice" and HUMBLE himself, without relying on "self effort" (Romans 1:25)!

      Austin: Jesus "impregnated a young woman" so "mere-man" could relate, but MOST still don't! He "got Himself tortured and killed" to show us to what extent we should go to suffer for Him as He has done for us. No, not to "save people from Himself," rather to save people from "self destruction and eternal damnation!" No, I don't know what "a god" is, but I do know what "my God" is! Whether there is a heaven or not (which I believe there is), my "empty spot" has been filled while you still rant and rave while "searching" for fulfillment. I have peace, joy, happiness; just to mention a few of the "benefits" while "on earth!"

      Link: Because I believe, I can only tell you what He has said from Scripture. You know you can't "touch" a spirit! God is The Spirit (that "empty spot" inside, longing for "reconnection" with The Creator)! If you would "slow down," step outside yourself, HUMBLE yourself, "look" at your "inner being," pray and ask God, "Are you real?" Do not continue to be too "busy" studying and researching for "scientific evidence" that you fail to "listen to within" which is that "small inner voice" of God trying to reach out to you. I don't think you "are simply blind or lost," but have been "too busy" studying and researching for "scientific evidence" that you have failed to "listen!" Again, slow down and back away from all that "brilliant knowledge" you've acquired during research and "listen" (as we have done by HUMBLING ourselves) which has enabled us to "reconnect" to The Creator! For we are no better than you, but have "HUMILITY" which enables us to "see the signs" and "comprehend such a gift!" It is available to all, but only through "HUMILITY!" If Jesus died, can't you die through "HUMILITY?"

      Titen: "...intangible and you can only get proof of it "after" you die?" During all of your "research," I presume that you were also "too busy" to slow down and "listen" to your "inner voice?" The voice that continuously cries out for "reconnection" to The Creator! HUMBLE yourself, move away from all that "brilliant knowledge" that you have acquired through "self effort," allowing that "empty spot" fulfillment, which will provide "proof" of It "before" you die; thereby regaining your faith! "The beauty of here and now and the magic (?) of reality" will never fill that "empty spot!" This is a Spiritual journey guys, and one must elevate their "thinking" into the Spiritual realm and away from "immature thinking" of facts, fiction and scientific evidence!

      Austin, Link, & Titen: I was once as you are but that "empty spot" remained. I have tried "everything" else and still wondered, "Is this all there is?" Then I tried Jesus! The "emptiness" was fulfilled along with other "benefits!" But the key was "giving up self, HUMBLING myself, dying to ego tripping, self effort and allowing Him govern my life!" For those who think more of themselves than The Creator, that "empty spot" will continue to remain and you will continue to rely on self, studying, researching, but never finding! I know! Been there and done that! However, there is "nothing" that can replace the love of God! "And His Hand is still stretched out!"

      To My Sisters in Christ (K&T & Star): "I" was once full of "self-effort, self knowledge, with an attitude" of God not being there for me. "I" tried "everything" to no avail, and the "emptiness" remained. Then one day Something said me, "You've tried "everything" else, why not try Jesus!" My God - Need I say more? "Benefits" while on earth notwithstanding all of the "benefits" hereafter! My God continue to Bless ALL!

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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Norine, in my case there is no emptiness to fill, so no i don't think you were once like me.

      Asking you guys questions doesn't equate to me trying to "find the light!". Rather, its me trying to figure out the backwards logic people use that almost suggests they have deluded themselves into their current beliefs. The fact that they are almost always unwilling to address contradictions, attempt to justify acts of extreme evil by god as quoted from the bible as some kind of good act, and always fall back on bible verses when they can't answer something directly in their own words lends quite a bit of credence to my assumption.

      I've become quite cynical of people like that from my year on HP to the point where i find it interesting how far they dig their hole before realizing how deep they are.

      Oh, and if anyone asserts that i really do have an empty spot im trying to fill, whether i realize it or not, that comment will be deleted and it will be a coinflip if any future comments after that will be denied regardless of what they say. Im getting sick of people telling me what i think directly after i spoon feed them what i think and yet they say the complete opposite. Rather nip it in the bud beforehand.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Norine it is a wonderful thing that you care about people

      And I understand that loud and clear. Do not misunderstand this point, we do not agree on the same bible subjects , you do not even believe that Jesus is the son of God, So we are not saying the same thing,

      You have made it very clear of your beliefs. It is not mine, I make that very clear as well. But I am a person of peace only wanting the truth to be acknowledge of Jehovah and Jesus way.

      Peace to you.

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      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      And the Sunday sermon is now finished. That Jesus Juice must be some powerful stuff. It comes with life-altering psychedelic hallucinations and their 'holes' get filled. God is good, God is never bad, Satan is bad, Satan is an angel (but not a good one) Then he becomes a Prince of Darkness, but still deceives everyone in the light. It's Amazing! Good and Bad explained at the very SAME time! All you need is some poor Middle Eastern Rabbi who "rabble roused" and got nailed for it and voila' you have the savior of the world - complete with a nifty X icon!

      I'm still not buying it...

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      No one ever ask you to buy anything Austin. It is free to care , and be nice , but you do not know how to do that

      By your comnents.

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      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Would you let your child walk into a fire? Or would it "be nice" to warn him that the fire will burn him?

      That is my way of being nice. I'm trying to get people to understand that religion is a man-made concept that will cheat you and your children of your humanity.

      Your welcome.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Austin I certainly agree with your example and statement , but you are misinformed of the truth , The heavenly Father does not burn anyone.

      You base your judgment off of lies told as man made doctrines.

      But just because a lie is told does not mean the truth has vanished.

      The truth is their people want to believe in the lie.

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      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      @Star

      “We were created to seek God, and God wants to be found.”

      You say that you KNOW this. I think you mean that you believe it, unless you can show how it is you KNOW, with actual supporting evidence.

      When I sought God I was looking for anything and everything I could get my hands on, be it spiritual awakening, the removal of sin, even a Paul on the road to Damascus experience would have done the trick (especially considering my name is Paul). It would take a long time to go into detail on just how many different ways I tried to reach out to anything and anyone who might be out there. Suffice it to say that if Jesus had “changed my heart” the way I wanted him to I would have remained a believer, at that time in my life it would not have required scientific evidence. But even today if I were to have a Christmas Carol style experience and wake up one morning a brand new Scrooge I would at the very least be tempted to believe in SOMETHING.

      “Remember we are born dead.”

      This sentence makes no sense. At any rate the version of Christianity I was taught was Pentecostal fundamentalism. There were even times when I “spoke in tongues”. There was never any doubt that if you sought God you were meant to find him. The idea that this was all based on God's initiative was not part of that view of Christianity. I never found any that was definitively God and so, as you probably already know, I stopped going to church and tried to cut out the middle man and began reading the entire Bible from cover to cover.

      “I think you gave up too soon.”

      The question is what was the reasoning behind walking away from Christianity and eventually from faith altogether. I don't think that I have ever given up the search for the “truth” whatever that truth is. However the research I've done has led me to the conclusion that Yahweh does not exist and that most versions of the Biblical God that modern people put forward are logically self-contradictory. I don't think this is a premature conclusion nor is one I arrived at right away after ceasing to be a Christian.

      Doubt is the first step on the journey to the truth, without it you're stuck with whatever is in your head at the moment. Do you think I don't DOUBT atheism? Do you really think that if evidence and reason could show a God exists I still wouldn't believe? Atheism is not a dogmatic position, its merely disbelief in gods.

      “He's put people in your life (even if it is only via the internet) who really care about your peace and salvation”

      And I suppose you would say that all the atheists in my life who encourage me to continue with my work to counter religious arguments are all just put there by Satan? This is a superstitious mindset I simply cannot get behind. I did not arrive at atheism by way of listening to others or blind faith, I reasoned my way out of religion on my own.

      As for my happiness, mental illness runs in my family, I believe my tendency toward melancholy, and hitting highs and lows, comes from that. I do sometimes swing between manic and depressive, but overall I am happy (and far happier than I ever was growing up as a Christian). In my poetry and writing I like dark themes, I like atmosphere and imagery, and I like to use those low points in emotion to fuel creativity, don't take it as indicative of my whole personality or general emotional state. What I post here on hubpages is a small portion of my writing, the portion I consider short enough or polished enough to be interesting and engaging to others.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      TIten I just want to bring up a thought, many of us have watched the Ten commandments,

      I am hoping you did because if you notice Moses was young in Pharaoh's house, yet he was not approach by Jehovah until he had aged, before that time he attended to sheep, even though he was raised to be wealthy

      He was not chosen until it was time that God saw fit.

      We say when we are ready it is God who knows when we are , even in old age.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      "God does not burn anyone?" - wow, I feel so much better now. Wait, what about that whole lake of eternal fire thing?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      That was symbolic , because Jesus would only speak by illustrations, Mt 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;

      many clergy use it to control memberships

      But this is not the way of the heavenly Father, he burns no one

      This is a false teaching.

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      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Ok, so let me get this straight, if Stargrrl believes God will burn sinners in hell for eternity - it's a false teaching. And if you believe that God doesn't burn anyone, that's a true teaching.

      And Jesus had Power Point? Who knew?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      I really hope she has done more research on Hebrew and Greek

      Terms, Monkeyshine75 is very good in the original language,

      She can tell you exactly the words changed what they really say.

      Stargrrl has spoken some truth, but that subject she will need to do more research on.

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      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      K&T

      If you are saying that there is no hell, you are very wrong. I have done much research on the subject, and Jesus spoke much about hell. It is not symbolic.

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      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      It's a matter of cherry-picking and externalizing the internal model of God. There are 30,000+ denominations of Christianity all claiming that the others are false and many claiming the others aren't even "real Christians".

      For example when I bring up how slavery was condoned in the Old testament many Christians immediately say "but Jesus did away with the old covenant!". So keep the God from the OT, keep the 10 commandments and the psalms and maybe a few pieces of Genesis and throw out the genocide, slavery and the idea that gays and people who work on Saturdays should be stoned to death.

      I don't see the reason to stick the Bible when its so factually inaccurate and so blatantly filled with immortality that people have to pick and choose which parts of it to believe and which parts to ignore.

      I find it hard to support the idea that Hell is meant to be figurative and if it is just symbolic then what is it symbolic of? Jesus says do not fear man, fear God, for God can throw your body and soul into Hell. The part where he says "depart from me into everlasting fire" is SYMBOLIC? Then what does it mean?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Well just like Latin in a Doctors world this would apply , to others who can not read the language feel as you do TIten

      But only those and a certain amount of people can read and understand it.

      The Bible is the same . If that is what you get from it , I can not argue your experience because I am happy with mine

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      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Actually, the New Testament does speak out against homosexuality. It says "no fornicators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, will see the kingdom of heaven."

      Titen is right in that hell is not symbolic. Jesus said that unless you become like a child you will not see the kingdom of heaven....this implies that there is another place.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      No that does not empty that, that means to be humble as little

      Children , not judgmental, children play and speak truth, and forgive and getalong. Adults get stubborn in their thinking and ways and will not adjust their thinking letting pride get in the way. That is what Jesus meant.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      The verse is Revelations 21:8

      "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

      Such loving judgment from a loving and merciful God.

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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Sigh, i say not to do it and its the first thing you do Norine.

      I would advise not making long comments from now on. I would prefer not deleting a comment you spent more than a few seconds on, but you ignored what i said anyway so i feel less bad about it.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Mt 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them

      As written he would not talk unless he used illustrations

      Why is that hard to read.

      You can not throw death in a lake of fire.nore graves.

      the scriptures TIten pulls up is a list of conditions that will not exist under the rulership of Jesus Administration . Or Kingship. What is allowed and practice here will be a thing of the past.

      these ones will not be citizens of the New earth.

      2Pe 3:13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      The bible is hard only if you make it out to be, drawing up opinions , and theories or philosophies of men , but not hard at all, so simple to others they can not believe it.

      There are key words of truth if you ignore them you get another equation like a math problem, the formula goes by steps, you miss a number, or step the whole thing is wrong even though you went through the steps all the time you think it is right , until the very end of grading. People have exchange the opinion for the truth. And when the truth comes along they reject it.

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      Norine Williams 23 months ago

      LinK: It's OK! It's your "game!" I know I've "made an impact" when one gets angry! Don't forget that "inner voice!" Peace.

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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Norine, im certain your inner voice is heavily influenced by satan himself.

      I mean obviously someone who has any real connection to the loving father wouldn't blatantly ignore a simple request and make up lies about someone. That sounds like the devils work.

      Whenever the next time it is i meet a pastor, i'll be sure to tell them to pray for you. Don't worry, you'll be saved in due course :)

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      Norine Williams 23 months ago

      LinK: I really DID make an impact! GOOD! I don't see where you deleted Titen's long response, but it's OK. It's your "game!" Regardless, don't forget that "inner voice" when you lie down tonight! Peace!

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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Well for starters, my mentioning anything about a long response was directed solely towards you Norine, and i told you exactly what my reasoning was directly after. Kiss and Star made a few long comments as well, so i can't really say your point makes any kind of sense when i didn't delete them either. Try reading what i actually say for a bit alright?

      If you are going to try to make it seem like im picking on you, i highly suggest not to play that game with me. You already ignored what i said not to do to then try and play the victim card when the "consequences" i outlined earlier came into play.

      But If you really want to set yourself up to fall that badly, be my guest.

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      Word 23 months ago from Chicago

      I distinctively answered the question at it's initial inception. What a challenging hub here Link 10103 and I thank you. Yours and the challenges of others seem to bring out the truth of it all. It doesn't matter how much research is done nor does it matter how intellectual the person that does the research is but the truth of the matter is; people need to understand what believing in God with faith absolutely means. The Bible is not that simple and relevant questions to it are not either. Without the patience that it takes to understand the mystery of God, one will not receive the appropriate answers to questions that are asked about God's existence.

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      Norine Williams 23 months ago

      LinK: I apologize for "believing" what you said! I looked above and you had not deleted anything! Why did you say "So now I feel less bad about it" as if you deleted? Now that's the spirit of who? You use the phrase "consequences" as if you have deleted. I keep thinking everyone is truthful. Man has lied to me again! Glad you're not my God! Love you anyway! Peace!

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      Link10103 23 months ago

      I can agree with that for the most part Word.

      For the people this hub is based on, It would be one thing if they accepted that god is responsible for the good and the bad and that he has some unknown reason for letting the bad happen.

      But that's not the case. They maintain god created EVERYTHING and thank him for all the good, but turn around and hold him completely blameless for the bad that is apparently caused by someone else (satan, which they both agree was created by god as well).

      I don't have the patience when a blatant double standard is in play, even less when people use rather poor excuses so they can remain in their double standard and not have to think critically.

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      Link10103 23 months ago

      I denied the comment and marked it as spam. Since im the author and can see the comment regardless, i have no idea how anyone else views it Norine.

      I doubted it was completely invisible either way, but i never said i deleted it. I told you not to make long comments because i don't enjoy deleting comments people put time and effort into, and since you purposely ignored what i said earlier, i didn't doubt much that you would do it again and wouldn't care to delete it completely next time whether it be short or long. Swore i already went over this...

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      Norine Williams 23 months ago

      LinK: I believe the Word of God and that's all I have to give! Remember how my first response began? Let me remind you! In Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and CREATE EVIL, I, the LORD, do all these things." Why? For HIS PURPOSE! The LORD said in Isaiah 43:13 "Yea, before the day was, I AM he; and there is NONE that can deliver OUT OF MY HAND; I will work, and WHO SHALL HINDER IT?" HIS PURPOSE! FOR HE IS GOD!

      You deleted my analogy regarding your parents adopting a permanently disabled child which God may have used to increase your parent's righteousness with Him (HIS PURPOSE), yet let me give you Scripture (All I have) that shows that EVERYTHING was created for HIS PURPOSE (even things we may see as evil)! John 9:2-3! Read it for yourself! What it is saying that ALL was created for HIS PURPOSE!

      No "blatant double standard" in play here! It's truth or nothing! However, my "Truth" is not my own, but strictly from the Word of God (For I am a "Believer!")

      You owe me an apology! You did delete! Luckily, I save "everything" I post. So, here it is again:

      Link: Keep living! Slow down and “listen” to within, you’ll find it! It’s now all about “your” abilities, but after you’ve tried “everything,” there is nothing else but God. “Trying to figure out the backwards logic people use that almost suggests they have deluded themselves into their current beliefs” is this: Can’t speak for all, but I had tried “everything” else, yet still felt “empty!” I am never “unwilling to address contradictions, attempt to justify acts of extreme evil by God as quoted from the bible as some kind of good act, but do “always fall back on bible verses” for “my words” are nothing! I am a “believer” and therefore, His Words take precedent over mine! I’ve never “tried to justify acts of extreme evil by God as quoted from the bible as some kind of good act” rather only state what He says! ALL is for His Purpose/Will! What you call “acts of extreme evil by God” are there for HIS WILL! We may not understand why such acts occur, but ALL is for His Will and Purpose! He is GOD! Example: A child in an orphan is born with a permanent disability and your parents adopt. Who’s to say, God is not working through your parents for their good? Who’s to say, God is not working with “everyone in the house” to bring them where they should be with Him? It’s all about HIS Will and Purpose; for He is God!

      When speaking to a “believer,” (if one truly “believes”), he has nothing to tell you but what he/she believes and that is mainly from the bible. If you wish not to hear “quotes” from the bible, you need not address believers, if it upsets you!

      Wow! I must have really “hit a sore spot” by asking you to “listen” to your “inner voice” and not to rely on self-effort or your abilities as evidenced by your statement that “any future comments after that will be denied regardless of what they say!” GOOD! Regardless, before you go to sleep tonight, mediate on that “inner voice” that is crying for “reconnection with The Creator!” His Hand is still stretched out! Peace!

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      Norine Williams 23 months ago

      I love you LinK! I do not love where you are "spiritually" now, but you will come to IT! Keep "listening!"

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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Whatever you say Norine. Just note that no more of your comments will be approved to this hub from now on seeing as you have the audacity to repost the entire comment I denied earlier and told you exactly WHY I denied it. Do you remember the part where I told you as the hub author I can still see the original comment I denied but had no idea if others could see it after I marked it as spam? If I want to get really technical on you, I didn't delete your comment, I denied it, but you still say I deleted it. Should I ask for an apology? I doubt you would give me one.

      You simply just don't seem to care about what im saying and have no problem telling me the things you seem to think Im searching for even when I tell you beforehand that they are the complete opposite.

      You should try listening sometime yourself. Makes people take what you say seriously when you actually understand what they tell you.

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      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Link, Norine speaks words of wisdom. You should take note of what she says. I am currently reading a book called "If God Is Good" by Randy Alcorn. I want you to read it. I am going to write a hub about God and suffering. I want you and Titen to read it. I pray you will, I will write it with you two in mind.

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      Titen-Sxull 23 months ago from back in the lab again

      @Star

      My position on suffering is probably not going to change because of a Christian apologist who wrote a book about it. The excuses they give are invariably lame and I can pretty much guarantee I've heard them before. The dumbest objection is always,

      "Who are we to judge what God allows?"

      We are the ones who suffer, our fellow human beings are the ones who suffer, that is what gives us the right to judge. We would blame superman if he was standing right there and failed to save an old lady from a purse snatcher with a switchblade - so if we allow theists to posit an omnipresent omnipotent omnibenevolent deity there is technically a superman everywhere who is standing idly by watching children starve to death and murderers kill.

      But go ahead, post your hub and I will go through one by one all the reasons why the excuses do not hold up and why omnibenevolence and omnipotence are in conflict.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      TIten from your point of view it makes sense , but you based this on limited facts, have you heard the example of the door that would not open all the way , because you are standing in front trying to force it open from your view, there is a hidden agenda going on behind the door, it makes no sense to you because you can not see behind the scenes, so it is with spiritual things, we think all this is about us , it's not. But God has the power to undo all damage done and return life lost.

      He has always had this power , we or satan do not.

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      Austinstar 23 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      K&T your door certainly doesn't open all the way. But I'm pretty sure that Link and Titen's doors are absolutely open both ways!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      TIten that point is to say we have a spiritual insurance policy, we are covered for all damage done by man and satan, Jesus paid the policy up with the value of his human life, but returning in the spirit body he had in heaven.

      That policy covers generations of human lives to return to earth under his Administration of Government.

      All the things we have suffered comes to an end.

      The real life begins.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 23 months ago

      Austin you are funny , haha!

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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Star, i stopped caring if Norine is speaking any kind of sense the moment she blatantly ignored what i said not to do. Twice.

      And from what i gathered after having to skim her responses for the 3 words that are actually hers, i think we have different definitions of wisdom.

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      Stargrrl 23 months ago

      Okay, Titen and Link. I have written not one, but two hubs inspired by the book I am reading. Read both of them! You may have heard the arguments before, I do not know, perhaps we discussed them at some point, but read them again. Keep in mind that these hubs are also for people with whom I have not yet discussed those points, so they need to read them. I hope you will not get mad, but if you do, I know I will have made an impact. At least I can say I tried.

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      Norine Williams 23 months ago

      LinK: Your last post above sounds like you've taken the attitude of God for you are "blatantly ignoring what He told you to do" more than "Twice!" And from your conversation, the "brilliant knowledge" you display, I'm sure He's saying "We have different definitions of wisdom."

      I've told you "If you can't beat Him, join Him!" Listen to that "inner voice!"

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      Link10103 23 months ago

      Norine, im not sure why you continue to comment here. You are starting to piss me off with how much you are projecting on to me.

      Just because you were so lost in life that you needed to believe in an unprovable god to the point where you are constantly sucking his boot down your throat, doesn't mean im searching to do the same. I really don't know why it hasn't occurred to you that people can believe/not believe in things completely different from you...and still be happy. Only a closed minded and weak willed person would assume they can't.

      Its the psychos of religion that hang onto every bible verse for dear life because they just "know" everyone else is as miserable as they are without god that are the ones who end up turning the most people away in the end.

      Bravo Norine...

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 23 months ago

      LinK: I'm glad you're happy! And you can continue in your belief and lifestyle (as I know you will for NOW), but one day, you will stop being "your god" and come to the realization that you need to fill that "empty spot," then you will remember our conversation.

      Don't forget to listen to that "inner voice!"

    • Motherbynature profile image

      Motherbynature 22 months ago from Los Angeles, CA

      I've been a believer since I was a kid. Made up my mind for myself as a teen when it didn't make sense to me that the universe came about from some colliding particles. No one could tell me where the particles came from, and still can't...the dust created itself out of necessity (actual scientific explanation) http://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/sep/02/ste...

      Right. That makes zero sense. Why is there gravity? Why is there anything? How did it get there? It's just...there.

      As far as God letting evil happen, yes He does. I don't understand this either. I know the Bible says that Satan's day of judgement will come but gee he's been having fun with his 2,000+ year wait! While I do believe that God will serve Satan up one day, what I don't understand is all the suffering that is allowed in the meantime. Yes, I do blame man for the sin because we're the actual ones killing and robbing people. Even atheists know it's wrong to walk up and bludgeon someone in the head with a brick. How can everybody agree that certain things are bad, though they don't all agree on WHY they are bad? I believe the Holy Spirit nudges every one of us and gives us what people call "a gut feeling". Gut feelings are universal and everyone has them. That's not an accident. Knowing right from wrong is what makes something sinful or not. It's not sinning if you don't know. But we do know, and many times don't care (cheating, lying, stealing, etc.)

      If God is the father, why doesn't he just stop us from being hurt? I really want to know the answer to this question. I'm suffering too. I have to live here and I'm dying to know why. Why didn't he just destroy Satan if He knew he would show up and ruin things for Adam and Eve? He couldn't have stopped it in the beginning by destroying Lucifer instead of banning him from Heaven.

      The closest explanation I've come up with for myself (and this is completely my own opinion) is that God is the father but we were never meant to have knowledge of good and evil (remember, it's not sinning if you don't know) which is why He said not to eat from the tree. But they did and now we all know. Now that makes God the father of a bunch of knowledgeable sinners.

      It's like how you raise your kids to be good people. You punish them when they're wrong, though it's painful. You reward them when they do right. You do your best. Then one day they grow up and makes their own choices and some of those choices are opposite of how you raised him. Do you want to be the blame for your son cheating on his wife? Is it your fault your daughter refuses to get a job and lives off of men? Did you put the heroin needle in your son's hand? Of course not, but what happens? Everybody looks at the parents. Must have been bad parenting. They got if from you. Why didn't you stop them or teach them better? Blah blah blah... point is, you can show them the way and they will turn left because it's their prerogative.

      Ok I talk too much. I'm done :)

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      Titen-Sxull 22 months ago from back in the lab again

      @Motherbynature

      “Why is there anything?”

      We don't know. Science hasn't figured out the origin of the Cosmos yet. But putting forward a supernatural cause doesn't get us any closer to an answer, it just stalls us. It's what's known as a God of the Gaps fallacy and goes something like this “scientists cannot explain the origin of the Universe – therefore God is automatically a plausible answer”.

      The most honest thing we can do is admit we don't know, there is nothing wrong with lacking the answer to a question that's as hard to answer as the origin of the Universe.

      “It's not sinning if you don't know.”

      Then how do you account for Original Sin? Adam and Eve were innocent and had no knowledge of Good and Evil, not only did God punish them but he punished all future humans to be cursed with the sin nature. Adam and Eve couldn't have known that it was morally wrong to disobey because they didn't have knowledge of Good and Evil (that's what the Fruit was for). God's decision was to set up a system whereby all human beings are damned at birth. Damnation is the default setting for human beings according to Biblical Christianity.

      “Then one day they grow up and makes their own choices and some of those choices are opposite of how you raised him.”

      The parent analogy really shows how flawed the Biblical character known as God is, because God apparently creates people with free will so that they are capable of independent decisions and then holds them to his own perfect moral standard that he knows no human being can ever live up to. Of course its designed so that humans can't live up to it, and human beings are damned by default and have to accept a special “gift” of salvation which can still fail if they “backslide”.

      Then of course there's the idea that a parent has no right to step into their adult child's life and BURN THEIR CHILD FOR ETERNITY or really punish them at all.

      But the worst part of all is that the Biblical God is an absentee Dad. Not only does he neglect the entire planet but he's left 0 evidence for his existence that anyone with a reasonable standard of evidence would accept. He demands loyalty and obedience and worship while millions starve and natural disasters destroy. And if you somehow refuse his love he has prepared a place of burning, and torture and agony that lasts forever... but then he claims to love you.

      Perhaps the answer to why God allows suffering is just as easy as: there is no god. We are on our own to make the world a better place, help our fellow human beings and be the best people we can be.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      At lease you admit you do not know and so do science

      But the answers are there for us rather we want to believe them or not, cause and effect exist everywhere

      And we accept that with small things , we accept it a house has a builder , but we can not accept some one built this planet for our house, we believe in light so we pay our utilities to receive it , yet we are given greater luminaries for our own habitat here on earth, why is it that gravity benefits us, why do beautiful scenery benefit us, why do we dominate all other things created, because it was, created to work that way. Another thought is time , it has never stop existing the clock still ticks rather we are living or not man did not create it nor can he stop all these wonderful things that benefit us as humans.

    • Motherbynature profile image

      Motherbynature 22 months ago from Los Angeles, CA

      @Titen-Sxull

      You make good points. Like I said, as a believer I have questions of my own and don't understand everything. I also said that my views were "completely my own opinion".

      Though Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, they knew they knew that what the serpent was telling them to do wasn't right:

      Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

      2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die. **

      She knew enough to repeat to the serpent what God said, though he tried to get her to doubt if she had heard correctly. She heard, remembered, repeated. Still did it Adam stood there and said nothing. He was right there with her. Even animals know basic obedience. Do they not hide from you after they knock over the kitchen trash and then go shredding it all through the house? Why do they do that? Shame. Knowledge of good and evil comes in after you've done something and it brings shame. Shame is something God never meant for us to feel. Adam and Eve felt shame immediately after they ate the fruit. They hid. They had never felt shame before. They were even ashamed of things that weren't wrong, like being naked. Shame separates us from God and makes us hide from him, which is exactly what he doesn't want. It doesn't help anything.

      Even with fair warning from the God who created them, the God they both spoke to and heard from, knew personally, the God that they both knew existed-- they chose their own path. So all the excuses of God not leaving enough evidence of His existence don't hold up. It didn't make a difference then and it wouldn't matter now. Every shred of Himself that exists on earth is analyzed, explained, categorized or dismissed by scientists. At that rate, we will never see something if we simply don't want to because that's our nature. Staying in bad situations and not wanting to see them as harmful simply because we will ourselves not to examine it too closely.

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      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      Mother: At least you believe there is a God! However, when you become filled with the Holy Spirit and witness “first hand” His “Awesome” power, then you will understand there is “truly” a God who created ALL and is ALL as Scripture says! (Jn 20:29)

      Please bear in mind that we are talking about GOD! Yes, He does allow evil to happen as well. (Isaiah 45:7). However, we will NEVER understand why for He is looking at the “overall picture” while we are VERY limited. (Isaiah 55:8-9) God is working on “The Master Plan” while we look at circumstances affecting our lives and others while He looks at “The Entire Picture!” Isaiah 43:13 says “…I will WORK, and who shall hinder it?” Yes, “man” is the reason for sin (Gal 5:17), even from the beginning (Gen 3:14-19) which has repercussions.

      You asked, “How can everybody agree that certain things are bad, though they don’t all agree on WHY they are bad?” Reason: Believe it or not, this country’s foundation was founded on the bible (although have gradually moved away from most)! The basics (The Ten Commandments) were taken into consideration when establishing “laws” of the land. Therefore, “Thou Shalt not kill”-repercussion, etc. even if unbeliever! But for believers, IT IS WRITTEN! Yes, everyone has that “gut feeling” (I call it one’s “inner voice”) that is “crying” to return to Him and is “not an accident!”

      I must disagree “Knowing right from wrong is what makes something sinful or not. It’s not sinning if you don’t know.” Leviticus 5:17 says, “And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he KNEW IT NOT, yet is he GUILTY, and shall bear his iniquity.”

      You asked, “If God is the Father, why doesn’t he stop us from being hurt?” (See above) Also, “Why didn’t he destroy Satan if He knew he would show up and ruin things for Adam and Eve?” HE IS GOD (a jealous one at that) and it pleases Him when we acknowledge that by worshiping Him, giving Him praise, and doing EVERYTHING to His edification! If you were God who "lowered yourself," came down and DIED for all, would you not expect all to worship and praise you? That's why it would be "the least" we could do for you is to "give up" or "die" to ourselves and serve, worship and praise you for giving your life so we would have a right to "return to you!"

      You said, “…we were never meant to have knowledge of good and evil...” Do you not know Adam and Eve’s sinning was “known” by God BEFORE creation? (Jer 23:23-24) (Remember, God was/is looking at “Master Plan!”) He’s GOD that delights in praise and worship!

      I like your analogy of parent and child. God is the same as a parent! After leaving instructions, He allows us to decide good or evil. As you have given your children correct instructions (as He gave us bible) and they do not follow as we do not follow scripture - repercussions! (Free will!)

      You may have taught your daughter not to have pre-martial sex yet she does and becomes pregnant producing a child for life. Repercussion!

      Choosing not to follow His Word causes repercussions also! Eternal damnation! Not to say the child is "eternal damnation" but consequences for being "disobedient!" God also gives consequences for "disobedience!" Eternal damnation!

      He knew when creating man that "mere-man" would "fall short" and He would have to come, give us an example of how to live "in this world" (Always ask "What would Jesus do" according to scripture?), and DIE so that we would have a way to return to Him. He expects us to do the same, DIE to our flesh, study scripture, and understand what HE SAID is necessary for SALVATION to avoid "eternal damnation!"

      Again, the Word of God "tells us" what is necessary to return to Him. When He came, He showed us "if He could do it in the flesh," so can we!

      Yes, you do talk a lot but “searching!” I like that!

      In your second response you stated, [paraphrasing] “They knew right from wrong” (They couldn’t help it, for it was in God’s “Master Plan”); “Adam was right there” (Rm 5:19; I Cor 15:21), yes he was but was part of the “Master Plan;” “Shame is something God never meant for us to feel;” I must disagree! After the Holy Spirit came (Remember God is ALWAYS looking @ “Master Plan!”), It convicts us from “doing right from wrong” wherein if wrong is done (which separates us from God), “shame” comes and the Holy Spirit reminds us via that “gut feeling!”

      Yes, even with the bible as the Word of God which tells us what to do for Salvation, we still disregard it, and simply choose to do what we’ve been “taught” (free will). Man can analyze, explain or dismiss Him based on “no scientific evidence,” but at any rate, their conclusion will NOT change the FACT that there is a God! I agree that “…we will never see something if we simply don’t want to because that’s our nature.” (John 20:29)

      Yes “Staying in bad situations and not wanting to see them is as harmful, simply because we will ourselves not “examine it” too closely.” (II Timothy 2:15) Then, comes the end!

    • Motherbynature profile image

      Motherbynature 22 months ago from Los Angeles, CA

      @Norine

      (Sigh) I don't think you meant any harm in your reply but you need to know that your answer was pretty offensive. Reading your reply is actually wearing me out. Opinions like yours are the reason people hate Christians. I've seen opinionated Christians like you run people out of church and out of fellowship with your 'you should know better' tone. Let me show you what I mean.

      1. The very first thing you said was, " when you become filled with the Holy Spirit and witness “first hand” His “Awesome” power, then you will understand there is “truly” a God who created ALL and is ALL as Scripture says! (Jn 20:29)". Oh. So how do you know I'm NOT filled with the Holy Spirit? You don't. You don't get to make that judgement. I am a flawed human and God has no problem with me admitting that I struggle to understand some things. In fact, He prefers that I'm honest about it so He and I can talk about it. Because God wants relationships with us where we can admit things to Him that we will never admit to anyone else. I do that. He actually wants us to lay our burdens at His feet and stop worrying. You could fill all the oceans with what we don't know about God. Anyone who pretends to be so filled with the Holy Spirit that they don't have any struggles in their faith is a liar and misrepresents what Christianity is all about. Remember that.

      2. I said that pretty much everyone agrees that things like murder are wrong whether they believe in God or not. Then you came in and gave me an American History lesson. Did you know that the world is bigger than America? Shocking! There are people who live in huts with dirt floors and no electricity who agree that murder is wrong. You say it's because America was built upon the Bible. I'm just gonna leave this here.

      3. I said, “…we were never meant to have knowledge of good and evil...” and you replied, "Do you not know Adam and Eve’s sinning was “known” by God BEFORE creation?" --Did you actually read what I typed?

      I'm not going to go tit for tat with you but I mostly want you to know that you DO NOT get to sit in judgment about anyone's walk with God. Christians like you shame people into thinking that they don't know enough about the Bible and about God to have a relationship with Him. You literally sat there and tried to pick apart my entire post by blasting me for the things you think I should already know.

      And your tone is so damned condescending-- "At least you believe there is a God! However..." However what? I'm falling short in your eyes? You broke me down from someone who has been humbly working with God to get some kind of joy out of life for 38 years to someone who just believes there is a God. Unbelievable. It's is ok to disagree on things and have discussions, even heated discussions. It is 0% ok to make personal character judgments about others when it comes to their walk with God. ESPECIALLY when you do not know them. Christian arrogance drives people AWAY from God.

      I'll say it again.

      Christian arrogance drives people AWAY from God.

      Next time you feel like sharing your opinion or witnessing to someone, consider this:

      *Does this need to be said?

      *Does this need to be said by me?

      *Does this need to be said by me, right now?

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      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      Mother: My God! I apologize for making it seem I was talking to “you” when I should have said when “ONE” and not you “personally!” (Thought it was understood!) I thought all “Christians” knew another “person” CANNOT “see” “ONE’S” heart to determine if filled with the Holy Spirit.

      “Opinionated” is not what “I” call the Word of God~! Scripture tells us in II Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for *CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Matthew 28:19 told us to “…teach all nations…” Now, whether you (one) want to “hear” it or not is your (their) prerogative (Free will)!

      As you (one) can see, I, also, am “a flawed individual” (which is evidenced above by using the wrong “word”) who also “has no problem admitting” to man, but God knows “my heart!” You “assume” I’m perfect - not God! My “chosen” position in Christ is to tell ALL about the “Good News,” how it was prophesied in Old Testament, when New Covenant became effective, and what Paul said we must do for Salvation!

      The world is bigger than America, but America “sets the precedent!” There are missionaries in those “countries” with “dirt floors and no electricity” right now, teaching “religion” from the United States! Shocking? Yes, America is the anti-Christ mentioned in scripture. “I’m just going to leave this here.”

      Your statement “…we were never meant to have knowledge of good and evil…” is still in error for God knew ALL and knows ALL BEFORE it happens! Don’t you agree? The “words” in themselves defies Scripture! (Jeremiah 1:5) In womb or formed from ground, He still know BEFORE! (*CORRECTION)

      You said “…you DO NOT get to sit in judgment about anyone’s walk with God.” To that I “hope” you’re wrong for Scripture says in I Corinthians 6:3 “Know ye not that we shall judge angels?” (*CORRECTION)

      If the Word (that’s ALL I have) “shame people into thinking that they don’t know enough about the Bible and about God to have a relationship with Him” maybe it’s time you do as Scripture says in II Timothy 2:15 “STUDY to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth “NOT BE ASHAMED,” rightly dividing the word of truth. “I” apologize if “I” offended but not if what I said came from the Word of God and IT offended! I pray it does bring “shame” which is what the Word is supposed to do!

      Yes, “At least you believe there is a God" for so many don't! However, ONE must be filled with the Holy Spirit and experience (personally) the Power to KNOW He truly exists!” All “fall short” (even I)! However, if one is not living in the current dispensation of the New Covenant, they are in err! Not just a “personal character judgment,” but err according to His Word!

      You know Mother, the Word is supposed to “break one down” (Psalms 52:5; Jeremiah 1:10), makes you think, makes you study, makes you come to “truth” in His Word. Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is “…sharper than any double-edged sword.” Therefore, it “hurts” to hear "truth" for which I will never apologize if from the Word of God!

      Don’t let ANYONE (me included) “tear you down,” but allow the Word of God to “tear you down.” I’m praying that IT does! If it has been said by ANY person disregard (me included), but if it comes from the Word of God, do as the Bereans did in Acts 17:11!

      God spoke through “a jackass” in Numbers 22:28, so don’t “dismiss” as “arrogance” but STUDY!

      *Does this need to be said? Yes, Matthew 28:19. (“…teach all nations…”)

      *Does this need to be said by me? Yes, Galatians 1:15-16. (“…called…” “…to preach him among the Gentiles, immediately I conferred NOT WITH FLESH AND BLOOD.”

      *Does this need to be said by me, right now? Yes, Genesis 2:25. I MUST tell ALL while our “…blood is still running warm in our veins...”

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      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      Mother: Sorry, I gave wrong Scripture for last sentence. Reproves that I am NOT perfect by any means!

      *Does this need to be said by me, right now. Yes, Hebrews 9:27 "And it is appointed unto MEN once to die, but after this THE JUDGMENT." It'll be too late!

      We MUST do as II Timothy 2:15 says so we can move on to what Hebrews 6:1-3 says while the blood is still running warm in our veins!

      We ALL have a LONG way to go but I MUST share what has been revealed to me or I will suffer judgment! I may not speak "politically correct," but if from the Word of God from ANYONE, don't dismiss but prove ("re-proof" in II Timothy 3:16) their error, so says the Word of God!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Norine you can not tell people anything when you do not listen yourself, you are not listening now, you are forcing your opinion and beliefs on others. Jesus was not that way he was a skilled teacher that presented information but allowed many to make their own choices. You are not doing that , while you do not listen you make your self judge and executioner , you as a human do not have that position and right. We are to share knowledge but not threaten with it for it is not our message but God's and his Son Jesus.

      I believe she speaks truth about your ways, and even though

      She speaks you ignore the issue and problem with you.

      She is right.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      K&T: Do I not give "Scripture?" How is it "wrong" to tell "truth" from His Word? The world just doesn't want to hear "truth" for they have been "mislead" so long, they believe it (II Cor 4:4)! "Have I the become your enemy by telling the truth?" (Galatians 4:16) .

      Scripture tells me in Colossians 3:9-10 "Do NOT lie to one another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds, And have put on the new man, that is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him;" Therefore, I MUST tell what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me!

      Jesus is God: The Greatest Allegory in Scriptures!

      AND for Salvation: We MUST live according to the New Covenant (which ALL say they're under), yet no one knows who, what, when, how it became effective! If they knew, they would live accordingly because that's the dispensation in which we currently live!

      The New Covenant "does not" mention baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit either! As a matter of fact, I've NEVER seen Scripture where ANYONE baptized that way! Why? Matthew 28:19 was "Man-Made addition" to Scripture to justify "The Trinity" (Research it)!

      Concerning my etiquette: Again, when "repetitively" telling the "truth" and justifying it from the Word of God, the analog creates animosity! Yet, I continue for my desire is "none is lost!" (Romans 1:16) Proverbs 12:19 says "The lip of truth shall be established forever, but a lying tongue is but for a moment." Whether, it "cuts" (Hebrews 4:12) or not, I will continue.

      It's time ALL stop following "tradition" and study Scripture for themselves. It's time to "GROW" into His likeness but how can one if they haven't "heard?" (Acts 8:26-40). Scripture says we "grow" "from glory to glory into His likeness" (II Corinthians 3:18), but no one wants to "grow!" When new revelation is given, "search the Scriptures (Acts 17:11) to see if these things are so," instead of receiving the Word as "an insult!" The Holy Spirit will "guide" you! (John 16:13)

      The Word of God is not meant to "appease" ANYONE! As a matter of fact, IT does the opposite! (Hebrews 4:12)

    • Motherbynature profile image

      Motherbynature 22 months ago from Los Angeles, CA

      Wow.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      As example Norine can a doctor prescribe medication to you over the enternet. just because he chatted with you a few times , No can he diagnose your problems over the enternet based on your thoughts , No ! You do not know enough about people to Judge what and why they believe what they do, you can not read the heart condition , you do not know enough about people to judge what God feels about them.

      they exist just like you do. Maybe there was a time you did not think about God the way you do now , but is it right to force another the right to make the same decision in your time. It is not right and loving to say what some body should do . Because you feel you are doing it.

      Jesus had unbelieving brothers in his family they did not believe he was the chosen at first , but that did change later , they believed in their own time.

      Even though you might mean well you are not helping

      If you can not listen to when some one is telling you something like how they feel and you ignore it , then how can you recieve anything from God who instructs through his word , you do not still hear him either

      So you are fooling yourself .scriptures are picked by you to say what you want. Not what God wants . Listen that is a value as well I had to learn and still is . A doctor has to if he wants to help , we have to if we want to help , and all things said by people are not wrong it just somethings are out of place.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      Mother: WoW is correct! If you do not want "truth" from His Word, don't "upset" yourself by conversing with me for that's all I have!

      Since you said you had so many questions regarding Scripture, I was guiding you to what His Word said and "correcting" when in error (therein lies the problem)!

      Last night I prayed for you ladies asking the Lord to forgive me if I had "wronged any man" and the Holy Spirit told me that "ALL" find change unexceptable and after "showing individuals from Scripture" their beliefs are in error, you will be "retaliated" against using every "excuse" they can find!

      He then gave me Scriptures for my remembrance: (I just opened Bible and it turned to) John 15:16-27 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; and that whatever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, LOVE ONE ANOTHER! If the world hate you, ye know that it hated be before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love its own; but because ye are not of the world, but I have chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin; but now they have no cloak for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no other man did, they had not had sin; but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, THEY HATETH ME WITHOUT A CAUSE. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me; And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."

      You see ladies, what a blessing you both have been to me! I thank God for you both (K&T & Mother) and pray that He "enlightens your eyes" to the "truth!" Genesis 50:20 says "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good..."

      Always remember this Scripture: I John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world." Never think yourself above the Word of God. One should receive the Word as they did in Acts 17:11. As I previously said in another post, If I have "upset" you, I know I've made an impact!

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      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      K&T: You asked, “…can a doctor prescribe medication to you over the enternet. just because he chatted with you a few times , No can he diagnose your problems over the enternet based on your thoughts , No !” The answer to both questions is “YES!” (Google it!)

      I only know people by their writings on the internet and if their writings are “against” the Word of God, I guide them to what He says in His Word! If His Words “judges,” causes them to become “upset” or turn to retaliation, Oh well, for only “truth” matters!

      When I give Scripture that contradicts one’s beliefs, they have “heard,” and it’s up to them to “choose” either good or evil!! (Free will). If the Word of God “is not helping,” I’ve done my job but know (John 6:44) “No man can come to me (JESUS), except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him…” If you believe, I Corinthians 3:6 says, “I have planted, Apol’los watered, but God gave the increase.” Therefore, they have “heard,” but it’s up to them to “search the scriptures to see if these things are so,” Believe, and allow God “to give the increase!”

      Sounds very “judgmental” to me for you to say “If you can not listen to when some one is telling you something like how they feel and you ignore it , then how can you recieve anything from God who instructs through his word , you do not still hear him either.” Did Jesus or the disciples “listen” to the Scribes and Pharisees? The Word has been given and there is NOTHING else to “listen” to for IT IS WRITTEN!

      How one “feels” contradicts “faith!” How can you allow your “feelings” enter when it is your position to read the Word of God which supersedes “feelings?” Again, the Word of God is not to “APPEASE” anyone, but does the complete opposite (Hebrews 4:12)!

      K&T, you’ve listened to me for a long time and “know” I give Scripture for “everything” I say! It is the Word of God that “judges,” not me myself! Apparently I “listen” otherwise I would not be able to guide one to the correct Scriptures when in err!

      Judging again: “So you are fooling yourself (If from Scripture, let me continue). Scriptures are picked by you to say what you want.” Isaiah 28:10 says, “But the word of the LORD, was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line, HERE A LITTLE, AND THERE A LITTLE, that they might go, and FALL BACKWARD, AND BE BROKEN, and snared, and TAKEN.” This is called “rightly dividing the Word!” (II Timothy 2:15). This IS “what God wants!” (So says Scripture!)

      If “somethings are out of place,” I have been chosen to “guide them” to the right place in His Word! It's up to them to choose!

      Love

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      JESUS spirit and personality was this

      Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for yourselves.

      This is the reason thousands followed him and listened.

      He was not a burden, meek, refreshing to listen to and like a, fresh glass of water you welcome to drink

      , you turn his drink into bitterness by how you use it ,

      Yes it is his word but you are careless with it for your own ego and you are not humble as he was , most people have told you the truth and you are not humble enough to listen or accept it , that is why you keep postin caos, well people feel the same about you.

      You do not have the spirit of Jesus because you are not teaching you are judging and demanding, We are mere humans who can not sit in that seat because we error to

      thinking somewhere that you would interchange and listen

      You are a one way door only you swing out not allowing others to swing in to interchange. You think you are beyond learning so you tell and not listen .

      The truth is Jesus was not this way in his spirit of thinking,

      Heb 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.

      Php 2:8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake.

      What is the spirit of Jesus and his Father.

      Notice, Ga 5:22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,

      Lets compare your claim of having his spirit,

      Have you caused peace in your comments, No

      Because you judge and command with words telling people things they already do. And mis apply scriptures.

      Patience , No you say people better do thing now on your command .

      Kindness No you use verses to insult and say things like Jackass.

      Goodness who feels good behind some one who never listens to you and judge you .

      Faith , that we are to plant the seed but is God make it grow , We should not take over his Job in judgment of others telling them what to do.

      1Co 3:7 so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but it is God who makes it grow.

      that is the Spirit we are to have .after this post I really do not want to respond to you again because you do not listen to nobody but yourself.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      K&T: Consider who, what, where, when and how when studying Scripture! Don’t tell me that Jesus was ALWAYS “mild-tempered and lowly in heart” (John 2:13-17), especially when they erred in their beliefs! Don’t tell me He didn’t call them “hypocrites” (Matthew 23:13-39)! When ALL are on one accord then yes, “mild tempered and lowly in heart” but when unbelievers continue in their beliefs, Jesus doesn’t remain “mild-tempered and lowly in heart!” AFTER Jesus spoke those words in Matthew 11:29 (As evidenced in Matthew 23), He became angry! You should have kept reading! That’s what the Word of God does (Hebrews 4:12)!

      Matthew 10:34 says, “Think not that I come to send “peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword.” That same “sword” mentioned in Hebrews 4:12! The Word is not meant to “appease” men, but bring them unto “salvation!”

      II Timothy 4:2-4 says, “Preach the word; be diligent in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH LONG-SUFFERING AND DOCTRINE, For the time will come (AND NOW IS) when they WILL NOT endure SOUND DOCTRINE but, after their own lusts, shall they heap to themselves teachers, HAVING ITCHING EARS; And THEY SHALL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and shall be turned into fables.” Now how does one “reprove, rebuke another’s belief when it only creates animosity and not peace (Matthew 10:34)?

      Again, the Word “judges,” not I! Yes, we all “fall short,” but when given the Word of God, it’s your position to “search the Scriptures to see if these things are so” (Acts 17:11)! I’m not the “one way” door, but His Word is and that’s all there is to “listen” to! (John 10:1)

      Yes, Jesus was “Obedient” to the SPIRIT! When people were disobedient, Jesus showed his character which certainly was NOT ALWAYS “mild-tempered and lowly in heart” which is displayed when ALL are on “ONE ACCORD” in His Word!

      Concerning Galatians 5:22 “…love (Does anyone love you if they LIE to you? Have I not told you “truth” from the Word of God?) “joy,” (I have joy just telling the world about the “gospel of Christ!”), “peace,” (I am at peace with His revelation but His Word does not cause “peace” as evidenced by Scripture above), “patience” (Why do you think there are over 200 comments under the Question on HubPages “How does A Christian Know That He Saved Is Saved or Not” in which I commented the most?), “kindness,” (I have always tried to respond with kindness but different beliefs brings animosity!), “faith,” (I have “faith” in God and pray that He enlightens ALL eyes)!

      Why do you try and find “fault” with the messenger instead of listening to the Message?

      Peace? (Matthew 10:34) Judge? “Righteous judgment” which can only come from the Word of God; otherwise, I judge! (John 7:24) Misapply Scripture? One MUST consider who, what, where, when and how when reading the Word of God! (Isaiah 28:10)

      Patience? The Word says “people better do things on “His” command” and I have given Scripture for all. (I John 2:4)

      Kindness? If Scripture “insults,” It’s working for It says the Word causes one to “…fall backward, and be broken, and snared and taken!” (Isaiah 28:10) Doesn’t one (flesh/pride) find it “insulting” when shown from the Word they are in error?

      Saying “jackass” is in Scripture, which I NEVER called you! Because you ALWAYS try to find fault with the “messenger” rather than listen to the “Message,” I informed you that in Numbers 22:28 Jesus spoke through “a jackass,” so He can speak through anyone or anything and it’s for you to study, pray and ask the Holy Spirit to “guide” you into “all truth!”

      I have “planted the seed,” yet the flesh (since it differs from their belief), find fault, when THE WORD judges those beliefs!

      Not responding to me anymore “reproves” what the Word says in II Timothy 4:3!

      Love

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      One thing after all you have written is write I will not tell you anything so do not post to me again because you not want anyone to tell you anything , that is the truth as you speak,

      But you certainly do not with your attitude have God or Jesus spirit .

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Do not end your sentence with love because love does not behave like you do. As written love does not 1Co 13:4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up,

      You certainly are not doing anything written here in scripture.

    • Motherbynature profile image

      Motherbynature 22 months ago from Los Angeles, CA

      Norine,

      Don't mention me again. I saw my name at the top of your last post and didn't even read it. You joined HP and have not written a single hub. Go work on that.

    • Motherbynature profile image

      Motherbynature 22 months ago from Los Angeles, CA

      Look at how Norine talks to people. This is how she answered a question:

      "Eli Why is everyone so Spiritually immature?..."

      She said "EVERYONE".

      It's a wrap! Norine is the chosen one y'all. She wins. Meet me at the bar on 4th and Pico at 9.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 22 months ago from back in the lab again

      @MotherbyNature

      "So all the excuses of God not leaving enough evidence of His existence don't hold up. It didn't make a difference then and it wouldn't matter now."

      One could make the same argument for almost any god or supernatural character. One might say that in ancient times fairy-folk were seen all the time in Ireland, Scotland, England, etc so that humanity is without excuse even today in disbelieving.

      And of course this depends very much on whether we take the story literally or not. If we do than God was walking around in the Garden face to face with Adam and Eve, that's a far cry from today where we don't see any direct evidence of gods just walking around meddling in human affairs, creating things, or giving commandments out to men on mountaintops. In fact what kind of person usually thinks they are in contact with the creator of the Universe and has some kind of message to deliver? Maybe someone who starts a cult, some New Age believer or hippie out in Arizona who thinks aliens are talking to him, some televangelist asking for millions of dollars in donations. Usually its a crazy person or a con-artist who claims such direct knowledge.

      The track record of supernatural claims is pretty poor.

      "Every shred of Himself that exists on earth is analyzed, explained, categorized or dismissed by scientists."

      Like what? Name a few shreds. Because in Biblical times everything was a shred of God. When thunder clapped it was God. When famine struck it was God. Volcanoes and oceans either were gods or were the domain of gods. Disease was either caused by demons or a vengeful deity. If this is how people define god than God is merely ever-shrinking scientific ignorance.

      "At that rate, we will never see something if we simply don't want to because that's our nature."

      And what of those who sought God and found out there wasn't one? Because for me my earnest spiritual journey is one that started with tearful and passionate soul-searching as a Christian, that started with reading the Bible from cover to cover to cut out the middle man and ended with atheism.

      What you seem to be saying is that people are led by their biases but I wanted to believe in God. I wanted to see, but found nothing substantial was there.

      The emperor has no clothes, it really is that simple. All Gods that man has ever worshiped are man-made - no one has ever demonstrated that any supernatural force exists outside the minds of those who profess belief in it.

      There have been thousands of gods and if we are going to consider the possibility that they exist we must include all of them.

      To me the story of Adam and Eve carries as much historical weight as the story of Zeus impersonating a swan to fathering Hercules. Is that bias? Or is the Bible just mythology, stories written by ancient human beings about a God they used to codify their moral laws and fill the gaps in their ignorance of disease, war, famine and prosperity?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Titen makes a great point. If you are going to believe that gods exist, you should believe that ALL of them exist. They have all existed in the minds of men, certainly. But it's also clear that none have ever left definitive, testable proof of their existence. "The track record of supernatural claims is pretty poor." Yes, it is very poor indeed. To me, that is strange, because a real god should leave real proof for us.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      I hear the same words all the time real proof

      If you exist is that proof , you did not create yourself,

      What about things we can not reach that works to help us keep living , the sun, the moon , and stars are faithful

      They are on time. Even before we were born.

      I think it is not that people do not see proof because it is all around us , in space as well, people just do not want to acknowledge his presence. That is a free will choice as well. But certainly there will never be proof for many

      Because they keep rejecting it. Because of their own personal reasons not disclosed.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 22 months ago

      I exist, so Zeus commands all.

      You exist, so clearly Thor is the universal winner.

      Aadesh across the continent exists, seems Vishnu is making his rounds...

      If you reject any of those supreme rulers, then its clear you do not wish to acknowledge their existence. You didnt create yourself, right?

      This is why saying life is absolute proof of your god and your god only is such a poor excuse Kiss, because not only can "life" apply to every single god ever named but you openly deny any and all other gods in the process when each and every single one of that have about as much proof backing their existence as yours does.

      Which is close to none if not completely zero...and thats being generous.

    • Motherbynature profile image

      Motherbynature 22 months ago from Los Angeles, CA

      Titen,

      I definitely respect your opinions. We get one life and we do the best we can with it. I can share my belief with you but I'm not interested in cramming it down your throat. I like that you can respectfully disagree without resorting to name calling and passive aggressive sarcasm.

      As for the evidence of God, it's everywhere. It's in the fact that everything is of intelligent design and not just happenstance. I love Tesla vehicles. The way they are designed and the way the various features all work together is just so fascinating to me. The body design and the sleek lines, the precise measurements that allow the doors to close so quietly and seamlessly, and that chassis...wow. Just looking at a Tesla chassis in the showroom gives me great respect for it's engineers and designers. I know there are designers and engineers, though I've never met them. Because there is no way somebody can tell me that this car is the result of an explosion. A bunch of fiberglass, steel and rubber collided so precisely that it ended up advancing the transportation industry. It's obvious there is an intelligent design here, not an accident. But what if the rep in the showroom tried to convince you that they just found the car out in the desert? What if he really told you that this beautiful car was dug up by scientists and was tested in a lab and confirmed to be a millions of years old scientific anomaly? Based on your own common sense and what your experience in the world has taught you, you might call BS. However, you might not argue with him if you were looking at a mess of raw elements strewn all over the showroom floor. This is how I feel when scientists say that the babies I watched come out of my body are the result of a dust particle, an explosion, and time. This is the best analogy I can come up with at 5 AM before coffee...LOL

      Anyway, the bible says that all have seen evidence of God and are without excuse: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." -Romans 1:20

      This doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't believe is an idiot. I keep seeing Christians try to belittle people with this scripture. It means that everyone has at least once looked at the world around him/her and wondered how it all started. Hell, it's why scientists look for answers. I don't know what prompted you to seek God before and ask Him to show himself to you, but for most people it's the thought there has got to be something more to this life. I can relate to calling out to God and getting no answers...for a long, long time. It was during a particularly dark and scary time in my life.

      But that's why there are so many Gods. Since the dawn people have looked at how the moon, sun and stars regulate the weather. They have seen "miracles" and events that cannot be explained by science. They have felt things within themselves that caused them to see or know or assume that there is an intelligent being responsible for it all. Now way is the sun hanging there on fire for accidental reasons as it perfectly sustains life on this planet. I see God's hand in everything made just as I can hear certain arrangements in a song and tell that it was produced by a certain artist. An artist always leaves a mark.

      I believe that God is real. I also believe that people reach out to God and get no answers right away. It's disrespectful for people of any religion to dismiss someone's experiences in their search for God or in their quest for a better life. That's a very personal thing and I will never laugh at that.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 22 months ago from back in the lab again

      @MotherbyNature

      “I like that you can respectfully disagree without resorting to name calling and passive aggressive sarcasm.”

      Name calling sure but I love me some sarcasm. I don't feel like it would be cramming your beliefs down my throat when we are in a discussion about beliefs. I'm certainly not afraid to state my beliefs and my disbelief openly or to call out others if I notice a big gap in their thinking. I expect others will do the same if they catch me doing it.

      “that it ended up advancing the transportation industry”

      Well see here's the problem, we know that something like a car is designed because we can compare its components, parts and inner-workings to that which is natural. That's the main difference between natural and artificial. Artificial means that it is manufactured by an intelligent designer. But when we investigated the origin of life we found life is a complex series of chemical interactions but all of those chemicals and all those interactions are perfectly natural. This doesn't mean we definitely aren't designed but it does suggest that if life was begun by artificial means it has proceeded from that first spark through entirely natural processes.

      And we can look at “designs” in nature and see how shitty they are. Human beings are no exception to this. Is there complexity in the way our bodies and minds work – of course there is – but are there are also glaring and disturbing flaws that would seem odd if we were designed by a perfect supernatural agent – absolutely. Human eyesight is particularly bad, it has blind-spots, is often color-blind, pales in comparison with the eyesight of most birds and even some other mammals and it dulls with age and various other factors. And what human system is free from cancer? Cancer, heart disease, STDs, parasites, no real protection from the elements thus forcing us to wear clothes, we urinate from the same area we use for sex. If human beings are designed there should be a manufacturer recall for faulty just-about-everything.

      “But what if the rep in the showroom tried to convince you that they just found the car out in the desert?”

      Okay, well let's take your analogy one step further, let's take it into the Universe of Disney/Pixar's movie CARS where the cars are actually alive. If cars were alive, as people are, they would self-replicating naturally occurring chemical machines just as we are. Now if this guy in the showroom, who I assume is you analogy of a scientist, said that these biological machines were not magically created but were instead products “designed” by natural selection what evidence might he show to demonstrate this?

      Perhaps genetics showing that all vehicles share a common ancestor. Perhaps a series of fossils he found out in the desert that look like earlier models of the car in the showroom but with other features more suited to what the ancient environment was like. He could even show you current examples done by scientists in laboratories that show one “species” of car becoming a separate species and show you similar examples happening in the wild all over the world.

      Now add to all this behavioral and morphological similarities among those vehicles the man in the showroom says are the closest related. Perhaps, for example, there is a human model and a chimp model that this guy swears to you share a common ancestor in the past, well we'd expect them to have both behavioral, physical and genetic similarities that prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. And what do we see in real life with human beings and chimps, our behavior is very similar, our morphology is that of tetrapods vertebrate placental mammals who are also primates and so are chimps and the nail in the coffin, the only proof we really need, the DNA evidence.

      DNA evidence is enough to convict a murderer beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal court, we use it to put people TO DEATH but some people want to dispute its significance in the case of our relation to life on this planet via evolution.

      “This is the best analogy I can come up with at 5 AM before coffee”

      In that case it's not bad.

      When they say we are the result of dust particles, time and an explosion what they are really talking about is much more complex. For one thing the Big Bang wasn't an explosion, it was an expansion of space and time that is still going on and really evolution would be true regardless of the big bang the two are hardly related. The dust particles they are talking about are actually heavy elements, which we know form from the fusion reactions in stars. When those stars go super nova they shoot out heavier elements, by which I mean things like Iron, Nickel, Carbon, which happens to be the same stuff the Earth is made of AND the same stuff we are made of.

      The purpose of science is not to detract from the beauty of life, or the majesty of it. Saying that a child is not the product of supernatural or magical forces doesn't make it any less special. In fact, if anything, it makes it MORE amazing. The fact that we are all connected to the Universe, made of the same stuff as the very stars of the Cosmos, is a beautifully poetic scientific reality that has enriched my own life far more than the fantasy that I was the offspring of a man spoken into existence out of dust and a woman made from his stolen rib who accidentally ate magical fruit that one time.

      “Anyway, the bible says that all have seen evidence of God and are without excuse:”

      All well and good but the fact that it's in the Bible says nothing of its truth. I might quote Star Trek with the same authority when Spock says “The Needs of the Many, outweigh the Needs of the Few” and gives his life to save the crew of the Enterprise. It's a beautiful and touching story and an amazingly emotional sacrifice for a logical Vulcan to make but what does the fact that its in Star Trek have to do with whether or not its true? Nothing. And the Bible is the same, at least for me, it carries with it no more weight than stories of Persephone kidnapped by Hades in Greek Myth or Odysseus on his endless journey home to Ithaca to see his beloved wife.

      “but for most people it's the thought there has got to be something more to this life”

      Maybe there is more to this life, maybe there is some kind of higher power or some mystery waiting to be unraveled that will change the way we see things forever but we just don't know for certain... and what I see in religious thinking is mostly wishful thinking. Just because there might be something doesn't mean I am comfortable deluding myself into believing any old crazy thing that comes my way. I'm not saying religious folks are deluded, I'm saying if I personally tried to believe now, knowing what I do about the natural world, skepticism, the history of religion and logic, I'd have to deceive myself.

      “An artist always leaves a mark.”

      And its a lovely and poetic way to look at the world, to imagine the hand unseen gently moving the planets about their orbits, it's the sort of natural theology that drove deistic thinkers like Isaac Newton.

      But all the poetry and beauty can be had without the supernatural or superstitious baggage. I have often said that those who look too hard for the reality of magic miss out on the magic of reality and while that doesn't describe all religious folks I think a lot of them miss out hiding their heads because they see angels, gods and demons behind every phenomenon, behind prosperity, behind every calamity. Some prop themselves up with the false certainty that somehow, amidst a sea of religious thinking that never gains any over-arching clarity, - or presents any evidence that couldn't just as easily be used for a separate religion – they are right and everyone else is wrong, they are chosen, destined, God's elect.

      The magic of reality holds far too much appeal and the best part is facts are true regardless of whether or not they are believed.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D05ej8u-gU

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      Titen: How do you explain your analogy to three and four year old children who have died, gone to heaven, described it, more importantly, "told things that happened prior to their births?" Why do so many people claim this? Have you researched if these stories are lies?

      Oh yeah...."Love me some "sarcasm" too if Words are from Scripture!

      (II Timothy 3:16; "...for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness!") My prayer is that ONE just ONE will see "truth" and study scripture (II Timothy 2:15) to "grow" and be "...changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." II Corinthians 3:18)

      Ladies: I don't have time for "name calling!" (See Scriptures below!) "GOD is not the author of confusion..." (I Corinthians 14:33). We all have free will! But God is my witness, you have been told! (Matthew 10:14)

      Romans 3:8; Matthew 15:12; Psalm 38:12; 50:20; Proverbs 6:19; 10:18; 11:1;9; 16:28; 20:19; 20:22; 26:22; 26:28; Matthew 12:36; Mark 7:20-23; Psalm 101:5; 109:2-3; James 4:11; Exodus 20:16; 23:1; I Peter 3:10; I Corinthians 6:10; II Peter 2:10; Romans 1:30; I Timothy 5:13; II Timothy 3:1-5; Luke 22:65; Ecclesiastes 10:13; Colossians 3:5-8; Jeremiah 6:28; Leviticus 19:16; Matthew 7:21. God doesn't like when His Word is given and one attacks His messenger I Chronicles 16:22; Psalms 105:15)! Have I ever said anyone is not Christ-like? I have only said that ALL (that I've spoken to on this site) have been mislead and "religion" is the culprit!

      LOVE you ANYWAY!

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Norine, I, for one am SICK of you copy/pasting bible verses all the time. If we want to read the bible, we will. Quit regurgitating it in your comments!

    • Motherbynature profile image

      Motherbynature 22 months ago from Los Angeles, CA

      @Austinstar

      Amen! (no pun intended) lol

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 22 months ago from back in the lab again

      @Norine

      "Why do so many people claim this?"

      How do you explain your Christianity to Hindus who have died, gone to their version of Heaven, seen their gods and come back? How do you explain your Christianity to children who have memories f their past lives? And what of people who claim abduction by aliens and have vivid and very similar experiences ALL OVER THE WORLD unlike the religious experiences which are different depending on what culture you were raised with.

      Surely you don't believe ALL these reports do you? I assume you'd reject those that do not support your religious viewpoint.

      Now I know what it was like to be a child, I remember it. I remember thinking I saw monsters in my closet while I was still awake. Now imagine if I'd been near-death with a brain awash in chemicals deprived of oxygen. Yes in those circumstances I might have 'gone to heaven'. These experiences aren't usually lies, that's not the option I would take, more like they are dreams. NDEs are, as near as we can tell, powerfully vivid hallucinations conjured by the dying brain that, as research shows, vary depending on the culture and religious background of the region you were raised in.

      I could quote a hundred scriptures that show how repugnant and ugly a book the Bible can be. I could quote a hundred poetic and beautiful verses as well. But merely because its from the Bible says nothing of whether of not its true and false, the words of any work stand or fall on their merits, on whether they correspond in any way shape or form to reality.

      " God doesn't like when His Word is given and one attacks His messenger"

      This is the same God who condones slavery, commits and commands genocide and thinks ritual human sacrifice of his own son is the best way to undo an ancient curse he put on humans for eating a piece of magical fruit - in other words why should I care about the opinion of this bizarre mythological character anymore than I do the opinion of any other mythical character?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Now, Titen, you know this poor woman can't find a bible verse to copy and paste that actually answers your very valid and poignant questions put to her. Obviously she isn't going to copy and paste crom the Hindu books.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      To Link did I ever say that the gods you mention did not exist, why do you name them as though you believe in God at all,

      The gods you name have history after the flood of Noah

      These gods started their beginnings from the tower of babel, and nimrod a man who made himself a god.

      Then the migrations of people when language was confused took their worship of their gods with them to the four corners of the earth. Egypt had many gods and deities but there came a time when the true and only God revealed himself and his position.

      Really through it all there is either right and wrong

      The true God is the rightful owner of all life

      Where the other is satan is head god over all emposters

      or imitations of a god

      The story of Moses is the greatest story ever told about the power of the true God , and how the many other deities names was no match to the True God.

      Really you express yourself very well, but you have overlooked the most important thing that is life

      No god.you mention can give life. But they can take life away. When the true God granted it to you .it was a gift

      and by his power we keep breathing. Like a power house ,

      the gods .you acknowledge has done nothing but steal what people let him of a real life and future of happiness Life to live forever.

      Tell me what can those gods you list do for you or have done for you ? Because they have had their day and power to rule the world as they see fit and have failed

      You validate that in how you feel about the earth today

      But you have the wrong one accused it is Satan's Authority of Government that rules over people and nations.

      The time has come to remove his presence and his supporters

      Just like when you get a New president he cleans house.

      It's time.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Oh dear, now I see why you copy/paste the bible verses, Norine. You appear to be one confused human.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Austin is there a law here on HP not to copy and paste, if so relate it .because people are not going to stop because you are against it . But if HP says it is a problem because they own the sight it is a problem.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      It's called plagiarism, and it applies to the bible as well as any other work not your own. So, yes, there is a rule against it in the TOS of HubPages.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Also copy and paste is a short cut on a phone device or a small pad , some people do not have the resources as others to sit on a lap top and write a long reply , but they will copy and paste info that is already prepared .again if HP is allowing it then who are we to say HP does not know what they are doing by allowing it. Maybe they will change this one day.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Then why have they not addressed it personally as a violation ?

      Plagiarism is when you are stealing and taking credit for some one else work and you publish what belongs to another.

      Saying the exact words of another through cut and paste is not

      Stealing but acknowledging their work. We all have access to the bible a quote scriptures all the time but we do not make money from it . That would be stealing.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      It's not that HP allows it, it's that some hubbers allow it and do not report it. You already know that I don't allow it and will delete copy/paste comments. But I don't go running off to HP moderators and whine about it. I simply delete it.

      But when I see someone abusing the copy/paste function, as Norine does, I will warn her about it and if it continues, I may actually report it.

      HubPages is not the place to be posting copied material. Especially if it is all one ever does apparently.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      This is topics and forums for questions , not a hub which you can be accounted for it. Like you have said it is up to the person who is over the question. If that is your decision , then that is good for you.

      We are all Adults here and we can make those decisions concerning questions to delete or not . But I think if a person thought enough of you to answer your question the way they can express it . Then why whine about it like you said about HP

      Reporting it to them.

      Some people do not care about anybody or anything at all

      But even though some people are annoying that is their gift

      Behind the answers.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      K&T - Norine has not written even one featured hub. If she is only here to copy/paste bible quotes, she needs to go be a Sunday school teacher or something. HubPages is supposed to be a community of writers. It's just not the appropriate forum to do what she is doing.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      I understand what you are saying ! But just like HP exercises Authority and ban people they are aware of everyone here. When they decide she should not be here

      They will take action they are the Authority here.

      What Norine does do is answer out of her sincerity

      Even though she is way out of line to me and some others she cares about people. But with the wrong teachings .Many here listen to the many comments of those who do not believe in god , but they have gifts as well. So instead of focusing on the negative we can look for the good in people. That makes a difference

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Its unfortunate that Stargrrl is banned. I dont think she's dangerous but her Fundie Christian beliefs are hard to tolerate. I disagree with her theology but she at least was kind enough to post many of my comments. Other sites such as Judah's Daughter will not post everything I write.

      Its hard, if not imposssible, to love a God who is monumentally, unimaginably, immeasurably cruel as the Bible God. The human mind cannot grasp and cannot imagine the cruelty of a being who created, or caused, or who allows all the Natural evils which torment and kill both people and animals for thousands to millions of years of history and prehistory. What kind of sick monster, or what kind of sick demon created stonefish, box jellyfish, centipedes, widow spiders, the Orange Baboon Tarantula, bullet ants, male Duckbill Platypus, Brazilian wandering spiders, stingrays, etc, which cause horrific, agonizing, torturous pain with their venoms. Victims of stonefish stings are known to scream and writhe in agony. One victim of an Orange Baboon Tarantula bite said it felt like his arm was being crushed by a truck and set on fire at the same time. A loving God would not create such monsters.

      Hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, intense cold, intense heat, flooding, droughts, overpopulation, locust plagues, pestilence, famine all contribute to making the world the hellhole that it is.

      Most disturbingly, the proliferation of horrible diseases refutes the possibility of a loving, good creator. Cancer, stroke, aneurysm, heart disease, rabies, tooth decay, ebola, malaria, staph infections, migraine headache, yellow fever, ad nauseam,ad infinitum, are all examples of the creator's cruelty, malice, malevolence, diabolism, insanity, incompetence, stupidity. Disease is a crime and the creator of disease is a CRIMINAL worse than Hitler and lower than shit. Immoral, amoral scum, mentally blind, morally blind idiot is the creator of diseases.What kind of sick demon creates ebola, cancer, tooth decay, heart disease, stroke, aneurysm, malaria, rabies? The creator of these monstrous cruelties and horrors is an immoral, amoral fiend.

      This God allows all this human evil and sin which He supposedly hates so much. Free will does not justify turning the world into a hellhole and horror movie. It bears repeating that we dont have total free will, either. Nature and nurture also dictates and determines human behavior whether bad or good and we cannot escape from Nature and nurture. This God just folds His hands and allows us to remain in our sins. He has no solution to offer us. Human nature isnt going to heal by itself, and Nature's cruelties and defects isnt going to heal by itself. God has to heal it, or there is no hope. He has failed to heal, and continues to fail. Its a pitiful, embarrassing execuse for a God. Its criminally embarrassing.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 22 months ago

      Huh, didnt even know she was banned.

      This would be the second time around it seems.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Moral man - the only answer is that there is no god. You said it yourself that no thinking god could do these horrible things. You are correct. We and the universe are the result of trillions, (even infinite numbers) of years of chaos. A god that could straighten out all that chaos cannot possibly exist. If it did exist, we would not have all of the chaos.

      Link, yep stargrrl was banned at the same time as feenix. I wonder how long it will be until she resurfaces.

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Apologists and theists will argue that the earth was originally a paradise and peaceable kingdom until Adam and Eve sinned. So Tyrannosaurs and lions and centipedes were originally herbivores until Adam and Eve sinned. Yeah right. And venoms, poisons, parasites, diseases, hurricanes, tsunamis, and death didnt exist until Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. This is almost certainly nonsense. Predation, diseases, venoms, poisons, parasites, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, death, and extinctions are older than humanity. Diseases have existed for tens of millions of years since the Cretaceous period when Dinosaurs were still existing, parasites such as ticks and mosquitoes also existed during the Cretaceous period and pestered Dinosaurs, ancient birds, ancient mammals, and ancient reptiles then living, predation, violence, and killing is known as far back as 540 million years ago in the Cambrian period beginning in the water and continuing onto dry land, and venomous pests such as Spiders, Scorpions, and Centipedes existed for 400 million to 440 million years since the Devonian period and Silurian period, and for 1.1 billion years for Jellyfish in the water in the Precambrian era. During the early part of the Precambrian era, from 3 billion to 4.6 billion years ago, planet earth was hypoxic, anoxic, anaerobic, suffocating, unbreathable, toxic with methane, ammonia, sulfur, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, with boiling mud pools, active volcanoes, temperatures thousands of degrees hot, and meteors pelted earth's surface. Sounds like a horror movie doesnt it? An unprotected human body would suffocate and incinerate to death in seconds under these hellish conditions. Does this look like intelligent, benevolent design? Obviously not.

      Getting back to Adam and Eve, it was awfully unfair, unreasoning, and cruel for God to allow their sin to spread to all future unborn humans and to inflict Natural evils on the entire creation from that point on. This is not love and this is not mercifulness. God cursed and ruined His whole creation for the sin of two people. A clam has more sense and has more compassion than this God. No common sense, no reasoning, no heart, no pity, no morals, and no conscience. I see evil everywhere.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      First moral in reading your comment I respect your free will given to say what you think , but I see a different picture.

      There must be law and order for anything to work when you have the many humans that have populated the earth, without it

      Life would not be fair or it would not be tolerable.

      As example now in this world of caos the true God has stepped back and allowed a challenge that satan started , he claimed no man could faithfully love the heavenly Father Because he give them everything and protection , that is the only reason people love God. This Challenge is looked at from man and Angels

      God Almighty has not destroyed satan because his challenge has to be proven once and for all. And that is why all man is suffering because of Satan's (Fallen Angel) claim against you and me.

      He says we do not deserve life or to live like them forever in a paradise which Adam and Eve were given, did they prove satan a liar or did they join him against their own maker of their soul ? one law was just given a perfect body and mind

      Could easily keep .but they listen to another voice out of greed

      And stole what was not theirs. The point is Satan knew they would die , but you fail to address his entrappement, against God and his creations .Adam and Eve are dead they will never exist again. Because satan created the plot and killed them.

      Almighty has given life to us which he does not have to do.

      And satan as evil wants to take it away.

      So with all this behind the scenes the truth is God is love

      Because Adam and Eve marked our genetics when they deliberately betrayed our maker. He did not wipe them off the surface of the earth right away but they had children anyway us

      And even though we are flawed we will be given a chance as they had. Why destroy your chance by allowing satan to think like him. You are living in a window of opportunity soon to close

      Many may never be born or exist at all. Our breath comes from him. Do not let satan steal your future also.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Also law and order started in the garden with one law . Basically

      Not to steal what belong to the Father out of love and respect when he gave them everything. Just one thing they could not have and they betrayed him by another.

      His words had to carry his law .what comes from his mouth has to take place or he would be a liar which he could never be and do not have to be because he is the highest in all creation that exist. He make Law.

      Next if we did not have a small replica of law here on earth who could live. What if there were no traffic laws in New York, Chicago, how many would lose life ? Laws protect us , and the very one Adam and Eve had protected them . But they broke it .

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Error he is the Highest Authority. not created but over all he has created.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      @ Kiss and Tales: Thanks K&T! I love the way you display “kindness” as Stargrrl be careful if you wish to remain on this site. You and Stargrrl will receive your just rewards according to Scripture (Matthew 5:10-11)!

      You are right in saying “…she cares about people.” But I must disagree on “…the wrong teachings.” Continue to say “Study” Scriptures given you “rightly dividing” the timeframe! Our meeting was not by chance! Take heed!

      You are right also in saying “Many here listen to the many comments of those who do not believe in God, but they have gifts as well.” AGREED! I have found the majority of Atheist on HubPages are quite “intelligent” (according to the world’s definition of “intelligence”). I can’t understand why they waste so much of their “valuable time” objurgating Christians and God? Something tells me there is “reasonable doubt” in their belief! I must say, they do stick together! I hate to hear Stargrrl was banned for she displayed “kindness” as well! I guess this is what society is coming to “intellect” and “self sufficiency” without God!

      I will continue to pray that God “enlighten ALL eyes” for “truth” in His Word! Love!

      @Mother: The “pride of life” is mentioned in Scripture! (I John 2:16) Until one “humbles” oneself (careful) to the Word of God, one will never find the relationship God desires with him. The relationship God desires is the ability to “let go and let God!” Hosea 4:6 says, “If my people, who are called by name, shall HUMBLE themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” Consequently, you become the “lesser” not the “greater!”

      I Corinthians 3:19 says, “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God…” When Atheists say that believers are “ignorant,” the Word of God says that they’re “ignorant” looking at “temporal” things and not things that are “eternal!” (II Corinthians 4:18)

      My opinion: “They have not reached a spiritual level,” which leaves them “intellectual” but “unspiritual!” I Corinthians 2:14 says, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are “foolishness” unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” Therefore, unbelievers will always see believers as “foolish!”

      “Study” Scripture more which is your only “salvation!”

      Love!

      @Austinstar: Most do not “want” to read the Bible (believers or unbelievers) but rather take it upon themselves to think what “they” can say or do to manipulate or slander a person with different beliefs never studying scripture to find out what God has said about any given situation! For the benefit of their precious time, I “copy and paste” Scripture and verse so they will not have to “read the Bible” since it is so cumbersome to most!

      Why waste your time reading responses from “believers,” if bible verses make you “SICK?” What is this “game” nonbelievers have with believers in that they continue to “track them down” for argumentative purposes? We believe - you don’t! Oh well! Remember, we ALL have “free will” but differences in beliefs should not lead to animosity! Whether one believes in God or not, I still love ALL and pray that God places something in your lives to make ALL realize there is a true and living God!

      @Titen: Whether one likes it or not I am a believer, and as a believer, I have nothing to say but what’s in Scripture to “prove” my beliefs! (Hold on to your hat Austin, here comes “more Scripture!”)

      “How do I explain your Christianity to Hindus who have died, gone to their version of Heaven, seen their gods and come back?”

      The Scripture says in I John 4:1 that we should “…test the spirits whether they are of God…” and apparently they did! Since Scripture says there are other “spirits,” it would behoove one to “study” Scripture for Holy Spirit guidance and discernment of other spirits!

      “How do you explain your Christianity to children who have memories f their past lives?”

      The same “spirit” as above. There are other “spirits” but only ONE SPIRIT! According to Scripture there is no reincarnation! Hebrews 9:27 says (For your convenience!) “And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” Being a believer, if Scripture says “…men die, but after this the judgment,” It is so!

      “And what of people who claim abduction by aliens and have vivid and similar experiences ALL OVER THE WORLD unlike the religious experiences which are different depending on what culture you were raised with.”

      Ezekiel 1:1-28 says in part “As I looked, behold, a stormy wind came out of the north, and a great cloud, with brightness around it, and fire flashing forth continually, and in the midst of the fire, as it were gleaming metal. And from the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was they appearance; they had a human likeness…” What? I don’t LIMIT God! Bible was written for “our” instruction in righteousness and I don’t question God’s Operations for He is GOD! Again, don’t ask a “believer” questions if you don’t want a “foolish” answer from Bible!

      Yes, I believe ALL these reports for they have been spoke of in Scripture! If they were not in Scripture, I would reject!

      “NDEs are, as near as we can tell, powerfully vivid hallucination conjured by the dying brain, that, as research shows, vary depending on the culture and religious background of the region you were raised in.”

      Well, whether a “powerfully vivid hallucination” or not, research shows that NDEs are real and one’s spirit experiences something “conjured by the dying brain” after death. Since we know that our spirit lives on, would it not be to our advantage to “prepare” for the “life hereafter?”

      One can continue to call God’s actions unacceptable, and since you say from research of NDEs that our spirits continue to live after death, doesn’t one’s “intellect” tell one to graduate from “material” things and pursue things of the “spirit?” Is this not reason enough for you to “care about this bizarre mythological character” and pursue “Eternal life?” Why not try it? It doesn’t cost anything and it reassures one (Based on research of NDEs!) that one’s spirit will not be lost!

      I’m praying!

      @Moral Man: Wow! I must give it to unbelievers, they do stick together while believers continue to do as Hebrews 6:1-3 says which is to try to come to an agreement on “…the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection, and of eternal judgment.”

      I don’t know if you’re a parent or not, but when a parent has continuously taught a child right from wrong, but the child grows up and pursues unrighteousness, what do you do? You don’t run behind the adult child, rather you allow the child to “bump his head” until he discovers “truth!” So does God! (Free will!)

      Yes, God created evil as well for He created ALL (Isaiah 45:7) but it’s our “free will” that has caused sin to become rampant and to increase destruction of the world. We exercise our “free will,” suffer repercussions, and cry “What an Evil God?” We continue not to believe, not to live according to His Word consequently blaming Him? Even unbelievers believe for all actions, there are consequences, so it is with God!

      God looks at the “Master Plan” and not from our perspective! He did not create the world for you, but for Himself for His glorification! Who can know the thoughts of God? (Romans 11:34) Who knows why He created things (“creatures, monsters,” etc.) for HE is GOD and “…who can hinder it?” (Isaiah 43:11). (I wonder if you will read since I didn’t “copy and paste?”)

      Dear heart, it’s about a “spiritual” journey and not things of this world! We (believers) are preparing for DEs for NDEs research has proven that one’s spirit does exist after death! Look at all of the “intellect” you have! Will it benefit when DE is encountered? It’s time unbelievers prepare for the life hereafter for there will come a time (DE) when you will become “spirit” only! Mark 8:36 says “For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole w

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      K&T and Norine - You always revert to "God did it" unless "Satan did it" which also according to you guys - "God created Satan". So, please quit spouting this nonsense and go write your own hubs.

      Most of us live in the real world where science and logic prevail.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Do not include me in your negative comments Austin, and this is a open Question and answer if the guest who post the question wish to delete then again that is their power not yours since you did not post question and again telling people what to

      Do is a turn off , acting as if people are not Adults to make decisions like you is disrepectful.

      If you are annoyed there are other things to read you are welcome to those.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Thank you, Captian Obvious.

    • Titen-Sxull profile image

      Titen-Sxull 22 months ago from back in the lab again

      @Norine

      "research shows that NDEs are real and one’s spirit experiences something"

      No.

      There is no scientific evidence of a spirit or soul. In fact all studies of human biology have shown the brain to be the center of literally EVERYTHING the religious have ever claimed to be the result of the soul.

      I'm glad you accept alien abduction claims, can you tell me about why so many of them involve sexual experiments? Are demons or angels breeding a hybrid army to end the world? How far are you willing to go on this sort of conspiracy theory stuff?

    • Motherbynature profile image

      Motherbynature 22 months ago from Los Angeles, CA

      @Norine

      I've asked you once already not to mention me again. Stop.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      One of your questions TIten I will cover ,a percent of

      Demons are rebellious Angels or spirit creatures.

      Just like there are good people , bad people, there are many as numbered as thousands of thousands of them that have a variety of personalities . As we also have a veriety .

      Before the great flood happen there were Angels that looked and peered at humans , women that they decided to take as wife's and did develop a human and Angel hybrid, there babies were humongous in size Giants

      And they also were mentally evil .they would kill and destroy what ever they wish or desire.

      the earth was ruin with their take over. Goodness was rare like a rare plant can be hard to find, but Noah had and his family was not tainted by all this corruption.

      The earth had to be cleaned and so it was.

      the same corruption has spread again like a disease effecting minds and bodies. , moral decay us everywhere

      if you feel it do it and say it.

      Many people are marching to the beat and sounds of satan today. There was a time you would here people could leave there doors open and sleep at night, they could even sleep on their porches . TV use to screen bad language and sex scenes, also violance. Now very obvious satan is programming many through screens and music.

      A toy was discovered called the evil stick a toy that appears as a little girl princess wand that when you tear the foil off there is a scene of a girl cutting her wrist with knife and blood . How sad and it sings a subliminal message.

      This is the works of satan and his demons.

      they effect us and how we live and the choices we make

      can decide if we will be granted to exist in the future after another clean up.

      All things said and done has been allowed , but everything here has a limit as well.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      To add the question about sexual. Happening with them still exist , they still do bother humans in a sickening way, they can not make fleshly bodies as they did before the flood , but they can stand inside humans and poses the human or envade. or take over .that is why Jesus would remove them they caused sickness, and death. Many times people notice people that are different and think they have gifts from God , No they have a rebel spirit that uses their body to do and say what they wish.

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Norine Williams Im not an unbeliever and Im not an atheist. Obviously you havent read all my posts. I call myself a Deficient Theist or I coined the term Deficient Theism as I believe in a deficient God. Deism, Dystheism, Maltheism, and Dualism are all examples of a deficient God. Learn these terms to better understand my comments. As I have written the same things dozens of times please refer to these other hubs where I comment: Yahweh is evil/Titen-sxull/Hubpages, and Cruelty of the Christian god/Slarty O Brian/Hubpages, HellNo/Hubpages, Kitaine/Hubpages, Sanctus vesania/Hubpages.

      No Im not a parent. Im a physically ugly, mentally ill, mentally disabled guy with depression and loneliness. I lost both my beloved parents. Four months ago my beloved mother died from a stroke. I cried for six weeks. Theres a horrible sunken feeling in my heart.

      You mention free will? Ahem. As I have written a thousand times elsewhere we dont have total free will. I have said this so many times until Im tired of writing it. Do you Fundies have difficult in reading comprehension? Or maybe you're just all brainwashed by your religion and you cant think objectively? Is the free will of murderers, rapists, degenerates, and idiots more important than their victims? Think. Does free will justify turning the world into a hellhole, warzone, and horror movie? Not in my book. Is the free will of Satan and demons more important? Dont you see how free will all too often favors evil in the world? Does free will justify sending billions of people to hell to be tortured forever? Take back your free will. I dont want it. Free will has ruined human nature and has ruined the creation, and you Fundies justify it. Free will makes me ill. And how much free will is there in Natural evils such as centipedes, jellyfish, hurricanes, tsunamis? Explain that to me.

      I believe in a flawed, deficient God who is not so good, or not so loving, or not so merciful, or not so wise, or not so powerful. Im guessing that He is also insane as well as cruel, careless, negligent, irresponsible, incompetent. Immoral, amoral, mentally blind, morally blind. An Eldritch Abomination describes the Bible God and Satan.Moral monstrosity and perversion describes these two. You Fundies cant see the cruelty, insanity, and incompetence of the God you worship.

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Norine Williams writes that God did not create the world for you but for His own glorification. Well isnt that "nice" of God? So He creates living, sentient creatures and makes them suffer and die. Cruelty and negligence describes this God. Its irresponsible, immoral, and insane. As for glorification, is God really glorified when His creatures suffer and die? Thus is not glorifcation but its degradation. This selfish, egomaniacal, narcisssistic, irresponsibls, immoral, insane, incompetent, unreasoning, cruel, careless, negligent God trashes his own reputation. If He cannot manage His creation in a merciful, humane, intelligent, constructive manner then He should not have created us at all. Dont create it. Dont do it. Dont create a world full of living sentient creatures if you cannot provide for them. Dont create a world if you're going to ruin it and neglect it. This God is an embarrassment.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      I certainly read and hear what you are saying but what you are saying is not everyone's experience, Jesus died to release us from the control of satan who has caused all pain , suffering and death, but you wish to conclude that has no value when it greatly does. Example when natural disasters happen do they give up and say what is the point of saving life, 911 happened

      And there were many heroes , life matters and Jesus paid for us to enter into a New World of peace and happiness.no sickness will exist. death will not be a worry or enemy , it will not happen at all.

      The point is we all are feeling the effects of Satan's rulership

      But soon God will completely rule over his own.

      do not lose faith moral how can we know or appreciate what is good if we do not know what is the difference in bad.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      K&T - So for the last 2,000 years we have been free? "Jesus died to release us from the control of satan who has caused all pain , suffering and death"

      Then how come we STILL HAVE pain, suffering, and death????

      You keep expecting Jesus/God to come back and "save" us? Well, WTF is he waiting on? And DO NOT SAY THAT SATAN IS RUNNING THINGS, BECAUSE HE IS NOT! YOUR GOD IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN CHARGE.

      We are supposed to be "saved" from Satan (according to your precious bible).

      Can you guess why your "god" is LYING to you?

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 22 months ago

      Thank you, Norinne. I appreciate your words of kindness. And K&T, thank you for reading my hubs. Moral Man, you too, even though we don't agree. I will miss everyone, even if we didn't agree. If anyone wants to, I've moved my hubs to a new blog. http://christianliving4u.blogspot.com I obviously don't expect some people to go, but to those who agree, support, get bored, whatever, you can go there.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Star where ever you go people will learn something and that is what you are about

      Thanks for sharing and allowing others to express on your topics.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Austin to answer your question if you were really into the word of God , you would understand a lot of things.

      I will make this a brief as I can, true 2000 years have passed and more , we at this very time are at the end of this system like the titanic going under, it was a gradual process of sinking so is this system under Satan's rule. Since you mention years Jesus is in office , but at this time only education is going on. I know you do not believe in the bible but the answers are there.

      Notice what would be happening in our time (Daniel 2:44 ) simply says his Government would be set up while these are standing in power. His would not be ran by another human, they have had all the years you listed and more only to prove failure.

      Jesus has been picking citizens through the generation of people .He purchased them being a Prince of the true God.

      He ask us to all be . But many decline in different ways. He comes to you and knock many decline, many hide, many put off, many will not believe or accept. That is your right and choice as well, but life will continue rather you accept or not

      The New World is on its way. The things we see now will not be.

      Just as people are voted into a job say president he does not take his seat right away, he has to be sworn in

      The time before he is he can not take action until procedures are finished.

      So like like wise Jesus has already been sworn in and is working to find interested people who really want to experience paradise. But that would be our Job to clean up ruins of the earth and live the way we were meant to.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Utter delusion. I can't even count the number of times this preacher or that one has said - "The End Times Are Near"! And yet, we are still here and probably will be until we either destroy ourselves, the sun burns out, or an asteroid hits the Earth again.

      All you are doing is enslaving your mind to religion. You cannot see the forest for the trees. Keep making excuses for your "god". He certainly makes enough mistakes for you to have to forgive him for.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      AUSTIN you ask the question I answered you, As you read you act accordingly to what is expected. That is your right and will as well. What people fail to realize God Almighty has always been living he is not in a rush according to his clock ,he does not die , we are as humans are limited in our life cycle. That is why there have been generations of people that have came and died., yet people who have died even from righteous Able who died at the hands of his brother will return. But on God's own time clock. The bible says thousand years to us is a day to him. Also his thoughts and ways are not ours .

      We will never be on the same level or be able

      to think higher then God's thoughts.

      Or can man outlive him because he never dies . But if we die he can return our life force back . Why shut the door to your hope

      Because you can not comprehend a future of happiness.

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Somewhere in the Bible says that God's ways are higher than our ways. And that justifies Him allowing eons of evil, cruelty, misery, and death? I dont see that His ways are higher than our ways. Im more moral, more humane, more merciful, kinder, and wiser than this God by miles. A God who allows eons of evil, sin, suffering, and death is morally lower than us and mentally inferior to us.

      So time is different to God than it is to us? I guess that may explain why in a world thats 4.6 billion years old, the first 4 billion, 200 million years of its history, of prehistory, earth's atmosphere was more or less unbreathable, and it took all the way until the Pleistocene to create modern humans 500,000 years ago, or 4 billion, 599.5 million years later. I guess when you have all the time in eternity you can afford to waste billions of years of time as this God has done. When living, sentient creatures have been suffering and dying over millions of years, this waste of time now becomes a criminal issue.

      Kiss and Tales and Stargrrl, you're more moral, more merciful, kinder, and wiser than this God you worship.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral you fail to realize we would not be or exist at all if would not be for the heavenly Father , we are made of dust as said , and he keeps us living by his power house of his spirit, I am happy to know that we are not alone and that we have a wonderful Father who really cares for us. The god you are referring to is satan he is the god.of this system who causes pain and suffering.

      No matter what has, happened bad the heavenly Father will undo it all. I do not ever want to compare my self to my Father and God. Because I was born a sinner like many who can admit we are the ones that need help and correction we are flawed in thinking and decisions of life with bad judgments So I do not consider myself good, or better, and something is very wrong if you think these thoughts.

      .

      We need him he does not need us.

      It is so sad moral to how deep and dark you have allowed your thinking .

      And that is not to the road that leads to life eternal a gift from him.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Kiss- I suppose we just can't be happy until we all die and go to live with this wonderful god of yours. Apparently he's never going to get up off his ass to be nice to us while we're still alive on earth.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Austin that is were you certainly are misinformed As long as life exist in any human God gave , there should be some respect for life , after all there are many who are not living , and yet those who live talk with discuss and disrepect. I answered your question but I never disrepect you with answers and word you use.

      What you use does not make a good example of what you believe , also your words are offensive , certainly not would I can see as good example and choice in your beliefs.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      you point out we all will die to be with God ,not true at all!

      again not knowing truth and passed down wrong information would have you think this , All will not die on this planet earth , did Noah die No

      8 survivors replenish or repopulate the earth where it is now . another clean up is soon to come , we are the generation that will see the fulfillment of this coming true

      God's years are not our own so we can not count human years of effects to his Callender . But he let's us know by world events where we are in time.

      The world powers that would be present

      When the end of Satan's world happen

      The fall of false religion will happen

      Which leads to the greatest clean up of the physical earth. This is what is going to happen, and is already in motion,

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      KT - You have your beliefs and I have my facts. Why don't you just go your way and I will go mine. Then we can quit OFFENDING each other.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      KT - here is a new hub for you to go argue your point on - https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Atheism-a...

      "the atheist worldview takes reality as it is and does not sugar coat it with false hopes or false superstitious fears of the workings of some demonic or celestial force behind it all."

      And that, as they say, is that! People that put their faith in religious pipe dreams are just using false hope to get through their whole lives. It's better to try to live within the laws of the natural world and learn to be adults that can work together to solve real problems.

      Why sit around all glassy-eyed waiting on some sky-father to make the world a better place when he/she/it is obviously NOT going to do that?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      First Austin again you are wrong , you conclude that is what people do who believe in God , you think they sit around and Waite on God , you conclude they do nothing , your conclusion is not valid, there is a work going on around the entire globe this work envolve

      Over 8 million who live together in peace and

      They freely help in many projects around the world, they assist in helping in natural disasters helping people to rebuild homes , they give food to many needy , and they physically get envolved using their time and resources.

      you can not talk about something you know so little about , and really when it comes to something you post and want me to read your character has destroyed that prospect

      Because you do not set an example I would consider as wanting to act like or be.

      so I decline on that link you posted and anything else .

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      It's not my hub that I posted the link to, it's Titen-Sxull's hub. Do you even READ what people write?

      Oh, like the "Christians" who sent Bibles to Nepal to help them recover from that devastating natural earthquake (not caused by god, but rather Earth's natural forces)???

      Or the missionaries that pass out bibles instead of food to the hungry?

      Yes, SOME people do actually get involved and actually help others, but MOST Christians just hang out in their churches and pray a lot. Which doesn't help at all.

      Where are these 8 million who "live together in peace"?

      You are the one who is blind to the real world. And please, don't bother reading anything other than your bible because you might actually have to use your brain to process the information.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      AUSTIN what ever you endorse or say I find it very disturbing Even though I reply to your questions or comments I do just because you ask . but really I dread it ,Because you are disrepectful

      Again you know so little about what you are talking about, and you say negative things about people , you seem to enjoy the game of talking in opposite . There should not be any bad or negative thoughts or words about people who help people in any way . We all need help sometime in our life.

      911 is a great example of heroes and many sacrifices made in the help of lives.

      Think about what you say before you say it or write it

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      I give up. You absolutely will not listen to anyone will you?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Oh I listen to your post of comments I just do not agree with them , and I have to read them to disagree.

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      The Bible is a hopeless morass of contradictions from Genesis to Revelation. Look up or google Bible contradictions. Alot of the Bible is vague, ambiguous, unclear, cryptic, incomprehensible. Only the long dead authors knew what they meant and certainly not us the readers.

      The Bible God has a Jekyll and Hyde personality with more contradictions than Charles Manson. He's also a hypocrite who does what He forbids, and who forbids what He does(namely violence and killing) and who creates what He forbids and He forbids what He creates. We're stuck with a conflicting, confusing, contradictory, confounding, morally incomprehensible, MORALLY IMPOSSIBLE God. Its a God who is incapable of communicating in a clear manner for all to understand and who keeps changing His mind from one person to the other. There are so many different Christian churches, denominations, and sects wiith each one yelling something different. We cant agree on how to interpret the Bible and we cant even agree on which translation is the correct one. And this God just watches us argue snd fight. All this fuss over a God who could care less. Why doesnt God speak up Himself and clear up this confusion? Mass division, and mass confusion are the end results of Christianity and the Bible, and if we fsil to interpret the Bible correctly then its hell. If we fail to belong to the true church(if there is such a thing) then its hell. If we fail to put God and JEEZUS first in our lives then its hell. Why only communicate with a handful of unknown authors from the Bronze Age in the Middle East? Why cant God communicate with us today? So salvation and interpreting the Bible and choosing the true church becomes an eenie meenie minie mo guessing game, and if we guess wrong then its hell. Why make reading the Bible like a riddle and jigsaw puzzle. Its a pitiful execuse for a God.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      If you reverse the thoughts you have said then you are very much describing yourself

      Because your interpretations come from your own mental views. Like a boomerang

      You get what you put in.

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Here is just one example of the Bible's many contradictions and one of the many disturbing, embarrassing, immoral examples from the so called good book. In 1 Samuel chapter 24, God incites David to take a census and when David does, God inexplicably gets angry and kills 70,000 men for this "sin." Does this make sense? In 1 Chronicle, chapter 21, the same story is later retold and this time its Satan who incites David to take the census which he does. Again, 70,000 men are killed by God in another senseless, irrational, insane genocide. By the way, David repented of this serious "sin" but that made no difference to this ruthless God. He was in Mr. Hyde mode again. First of all, if taking a census was such a sin, then why did God incite David to take this census? You make someone do something and then punish him for it, or rather punish the whole community for it? What kind of sick,insane garbage is this? This deeply sick God needs serious psychiatrif help. Why did 70,000 men have to be killed? Who incited David to take the census-God or Satan? Gee, I dont know. The Bible is saying two different things here.. In one account, its God who incites, and in the other account, its Satan who incites. One of the most glaring contradictions in the Bible. Its said that whoever wrote Chronicles wrote it at a later date and substituted Satan instead of God. Why is that? Why the difference? Is the author embarrassed at having God as the inciter and so changes it to Satan instead? Did both God and Satan incite David to take the census? We're not going to get any straight answers from the Bible.

      In another embarrassing episode, God kills David's baby for David's sin. Does this make sense? God tries to kill Moses and forbids him from stepping foot in the Promised Land after all that Moses did for this God. Why? Because Moses failed to give God credit for a miracle when Moses struck a rock and water came out and because Moses failed to get circumcized. Unbelievable. What's this preoccupation with cutting male genitals? The stupidity and insanity continues when God threatens His chosen people with turnining into cannibals and eating their babies and threatens women with being ravished or rape. Does it get any lower than this? Poor Uzzah gets killed just for catching the Ark of the Covenant as it fell(what should he have done, allowed it to fall and possibly break?) Then we have 50,070 people who get killed by God just because a few of them touched or peeked inside the Ark of the Covenant. Whew. With a God like this, who needs enemies? How about when God tells His chosen people to smear dung on their faces and to mix dung with their bread and eat it. Baking and eating shit. You would think that a supposedly good, loving, mighty God could do a better job in providing for His chosen people. At least give them bagels. Instead He gives them Shit cakes. Disgusting, despicable, disgrace. Is this really God? Or is this just the writings of a semi-barbaric, ignorant tribe from the Bronze Age? Its criminally embarrassing. This God is an incompetent bungler like Archie Bunker on one hand and a cruel, vile, barbaric monster like Vlad the Impaler on the other hand. Unfit to worship. There are enough embarrassments in the Bible and within the history of religion and enough defects, screwups, cruelties, and evils within Nature and within Humanity that I could write thick books about it. Theres not enough space and not enough energy to catalogue all the world's evils, follies, cruelties, and stupidities since time began.With a world as grievously marred as this, what does that say about the creator? The creator sucks.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      @ Morale Man: Why does it make you so angry that GOD is GOD?

      There is a "moral" behind every story in the bible. Remember, the bible consists of allegories, metaphors, illustrations, etc., and (believe it or not), one MUST have the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT to "understand!"

      Did you notice in Chapter 23 of II Samuel (Not “I Samuel”) that "men" were trying to make a name for themselves, and David condoned it rather than listening to the voice of God? Sin! The moral of the story in II Samuel lies in chapter 24, verse 17 (as it does today): "When one sins (openly or privately), there are "repercussions," which affects "everyone else" and can only be removed by "repenting!" (II Samuel 24:25) So why ask "Why is GOD so evil?" Except it! "HE" IS GOD, NOT WE OURSELVES! Does "pride" prevent one from doing this?

      Man (from the beginning of time) has always "blamed" someone else for his actions. Consider Adam when questioned by God in which he “blamed" "that woman" which was our "nature" from the beginning when sinning. However, it is because of "our sin," that the world is where it is today, not GOD but "US!"

      I must agree that "There are so many different Christian churches, denominations, and sects with each one yelling something different. We cant agree on how to interpret the Bible and we cant even agree on which translation is the correct one."

      The beginning of my response stated, “without the "Holy Spirit," the spirit of “the deceiver” will prevail! (Satan!) It is his job to “confuse” (as he did with Eve from the beginning) believers and I must agree that he’s doing a great job! (John 10:10). It is imperative that “believers” (Matthew 6:33) “…seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and ALL these things will be added unto you.” Without the Holy Spirit, it’s irrelevant to “read” the bible, for one will “never understand!” When one attains the gift of the Holy Spirit (putting aside one’s “thoughts,” “feelings,” and listen “only” to the voice of God which is the Holy Spirit), and allow HIM and only HIM reign, there is no “confusion,” for the Holy Spirit “communicates” ALL righteousness unto us, and the bible becomes no longer “a guessing game” or “jigsaw puzzle.” He has not left us (John 14:26; 16:13)! The Holy Spirit is how He communicates with us today! God does “communicate with us Himself and clear up the confusion” when the Holy Spirit is present! However, we allow our tradition, religion, “knowledge,” interfere with God’s voice (that “inner voice” again Link) which sways us from where we should go – to God! Humbly (Mother)!

      I wish I had more room to address all of your questions! Isaiah 43:13 God said, “…I will work, and who shall hinder it?” As stated before, the morale of the story in II Samuel is not whether God “allowed Satan” to enter David’s thoughts or not (Isaiah 45:7), rather “If you do not obey the voice of God, there will be repercussions in which ALL will suffer” if no repentance (II Samuel 24:25)! Even unbelievers will agree that for every action there is a reaction!

      Yes, God killed David’s baby for David’s sin and it does make sense for He has told us time and time again that “our sins” affect “generation after generation.” (Numbers 14:18) That’s why I stated previously that “our sins affect others” as with David, as with the current situation of the world in which most “blame” God!

      Moses was “disobedient,” therefore, “repercussions!” Uzzah’s death shows us that under Old Covenants man’s “WORKS” cannot save but under New Covenant “GRACE” saves! You see the Old Testament was “JESUS” concealed but under New Testament (New Covenant), “JESUS” has been revealed! As today, when “believers” just “touch or peek inside His Word” or not believe in what He’s said, you will “die!”

      As said before, “If you have not been given the “gift” of the Holy Spirit,” God will appear to be as described by your adjectives! Read Malachi 2 in which God gives warning to Priests! Jeremiah 23:1 says “Woe be unto the shepherds who lead my sheep astray!” [paraphrasing] In the Old Testament it tells us that we will “eat feces” as we do today when persuaded by religion in our beliefs! (Another metaphor!) However, under the “New Covenant,” the Holy Spirit has been sent us (John 14:26; 16:13) to guide us from “eating feces!”

      “There’s not enough space and not enough energy” to tell you all of the “mysteries that “have been hidden” from the beginning” (Ephesians 3:9)! II Corinthians 4:3-4 says, “But if our gospel be “hidden” it is “hidden” to them that are lost; In whom the god of this age hath “blinded the minds” who believe not…”

      Praying

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Norine Williams do you know how many other self professed Christians like yourself have claimed that they are filled with the Holy Spirit and this enables them to correctly interpret the Bible? Well then, for every single person who claims this should all agree 100 percent. But they dont. For example, both Herbert W. Armstrong and Harold Camping each claimed they were filled with the Holy Spirit and were sure that their interpretation of the Bible was the only correct one. Guess what? These two men didnt agree 100 percent. They disagreed in one very important way. Herbert was an annihilatioonist who didnt believe in hell but who believed that only saved people will go to heaven and the unsaved will simply cease to be or annihilated. Harold Camping on the other hand was more mainstream with his belief in a fiery hell for billions of unsaved people who didnt believe like himself. So who is right, Herbert or Harold? Either one is right and the other is wrong, or maybe, hopefully, they are both wrong. You know how many people have the audacity to claim that only they know how to correctly interpret the Bible. But you all have a different interpretation. Why cant God speak up and tell us what the true interpretation is? Why keep silent and secret? Why allow us to endlessly speculate, agonize, and argue?

      Why am I angry at God for being God? Because He is cruel, unreasoning, unwise, irrational, insane, careless, negligent, incompetent, irresponsible, and stupid, all of which are un-Godlike and all of of which are too human characteristics and too human flaws. I expect better from a God. I expect a God to be morally superior and mentally superior to me. Instead what we have is a God who is morally inferior and mentally inferior. We have a God who has no common sense and who has no reasoning.

      So you think its ok and it makes sense to kill David's baby for David's sin? Wow. This is fair to you? You dont see the cruelty, insanity, immorality, irrationality, and stupidity with this? You Fundies cant think objectively. You make execuses to get this God off the hook. So this God is above morality, and anything He does is ok? Ive got news for you. No one is above morality, not even God. If killing a baby is wrong, evil, and sinful for a human, then its also wrong, evil, and sinful for God, and even more so. So go on and keep making execuses for this God's cruelty, carelessness, negligence, unreasonableness, insanity, incompetence, irresponsibleness, and stupidity. If a good loving God exists, then 1) He is not in control of this screwed up world, and 2)He cannot be found in the pages of the Bible.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      Morale Man: Do you know that neither you nor I can “judge” whether or not Herbert W. Armstrong or Harold Camping were or were not filled with the Holy Spirit? Did the apostles agree on “everything” throughout the bible yet ALL were filled with the Holy Spirit? (Galatians 2:11-21). Did not the Holy Spirit (Jesus) speak through Paul telling Peter “things had changed” under the New Covenant? (Galatians)

      I continue to say, “IT IS “IMPERATIVE” that believers “seek the kingdom of God (Holy Spirit) “FIRST” which enables one to find “truth” in His Word! II Timothy 3:16 tell us that “All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF (Prove Belief), for CORRECTION (Correct believers when in error), for instruction in RIGHTEOUSNESS” (which is only from the Word of God)!

      This is why you find so many different denominations disagreeing on the correct interpretation of Scripture. Once given “different” revelation of Scripture from the Holy Spirit, it is our responsibility to do as in Matthew 28:19, “…teach all nations…” Believers should then “Search the Scriptures” (Acts 17:11) to “see if these things are so” leaving aside personal “feelings,” beliefs, traditions, religion so (II Timothy 3:17), “That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works!”

      Yes, why are you angry that GOD IS GOD? God has shown us in Scripture (repeatedly) that HE IS GOD and no one (not even the infamous “you”) “…can hinder it…” “You expect…?” Who are you? An ant in comparison to GOD! Although He loves you and “desires none is lost,” you will become as one of the thousands of others that were and will be killed if you do not believe in His Word!

      “So you think it’s OK and it makes sense to kill David’s baby for David’s sin? Wow. This is fair to you? You don’t see the cruelty, insanity, immorality, irrationality, and stupidity with this?”

      Yes, it is what God said would happen if we sinned! (Numbers 23:19). He continues to show us “If we sin, there are repercussions!” I don’t see anything in Scripture with “morality” in it. God is a “Just” God! Your definition of “morality” is defined as “just” and “righteous” in Scripture (II Thessalonians 1:6-9)! Micah 6:8 says, “He hath shown thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do “justly” and to "love mercy," and to walk “humbly” with thy God?” We should “Lean not to our own understanding (What we “feel” is morale; Proverbs 3:5) and do what is defined as “just” throughout Scripture and walk “humbly” with Him!

      GOD is in control although we have to deal with all of the chaos we’ve made which is “just” in His sight for “our” disobedience!

      Praying (Mercy)

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      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral in reply to your comments we do not own this world , we did not create it or what is in it, how do you know what is right and what is wrong , you did not create the law of right and wrong, God did. So he is the original maker of all things, there is not nothing that he can not do , or even undo, he can return life if he wants to.

      you can not return it , so why do you complain of the things you have no control of. Also if God himself gave the history and accounts of what you have read then why do you judge him on your level, he has always lived , man can not control the very next day.

      As an example say you create animation

      Characters on paper , you use the tools to create live movement you give them life,

      Yet will those created characters come against you and attack what you create for them, you give a character a beautiful setting of a garden, you give your character everything , and then you give life of movement , and so you fix it where the characters stay within the paradise of survival , if the character steps out of the paradise of survival life does not continue to exist meaning off the page.

      Yet that is exactly what I hear from you.

      It does not make sense to me a person complaining about history God gave you to listen to. And you twist it to make yourself seem you are his judge .

      Not possible and will never be.

      You are in a dark hole.

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      If the world was a paradise then I wouldnt be complaining and I wouldnt be angry. Instead the world is a hellhole, warzone, dungheap, and horror movie and thats why Im angry and complain I cant accept this kind of horrible world, and I cant accept a God who accepts it.

      So Im just an ant in comparison to God? So might makes right? So who am I to know what is good and what is evil? Well, Ive been given the ability to use reason, logic, and intellect, and Im morally sensitive. Im not morally perfect, Im as sinful as the next person, but I understand what morality is and I strive to be a good, moral, kind, humane, honest person. At least I have common sense and reasoning UNLIKE this God you worship. So I didnt create the world? So I cant have an opinion about the world and about the creator of the world? So I have no right to express my opinions and my feelings? The creator gave me intellect, reasoning, and logic, and made me morally sensitive, unlike Him and unlike alot of other people. Obviously the creator didnt give all of us intellect, reasoning, logic, and moral sensitivity, but He did give it to some of us and He did give it to me, so He should expect rignteous anger, indignation, and complaints at the horrible mismanagement of the world.

      You continue to believe and defend this God. Good for you. I personally cannot defend and cannot accept what is cruel and immoral. So be happy. You'll be saved for having blind faith and blind trust and I'll be thrown in hell to be tortured forever for using my intellect, reasoning, and logic and for being morally sensitive and for refusing to love a cruel, insane, unreasoning,irresponsible, careless, negligent, immoral, amoral God. This still makes God a cruel monster.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 22 months ago

      Kiss, I would have to ask what part of history Moral Man twisted in order to judge god?

      With the plethora of bible quoting I can't say I have been following the comments as much as I usually would, but from what I saw of his comments I would imagine he was quoting stories directly from the bible.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Yes a story but not with accurate knowledge, anybody can change and add their own conclusions does not mean it is correct .we all know people who say things out of anger , and pain , and judge wrong.

      The world is more full of untruth then truth these days . So easy to blame others then who is really at fault.

      I can not see myself agreeing to someone

      who does not see life as given a gift and turn around and slander the gift giver.

      the greatest thing we own is our life.

      why act as though it means nothing by bad mouthing the one who gave it.

      it is crazy talk.

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      I didnt ask to be created by this creator and I didnt asl to be put into this horrible, dungheap, scuzpit for a world. Im not bad mouthing about the good in the world. Im thankful and happy for the good in the world. Im complaining about the HORRIBLE things in the world which this God created or allows. You seem not understand this. If a person gave you two separate gifts, one of them a delicious cake, and the other a box full of dung, would you thank this person for giving you dung? This is the same situation we have with God. On one hand, He creates lovely things such as fruits, flowers, songbirds, and pretty scenery which Im thankful for. On the other hand, look what else He created-execrement, cancer, ebola, tooth decay, centipedes, jellyfish, ticks, mosquitoes, birth defects, miscarriages, all of which are horrible and disgusting and for which we have a right to complain about. I thank the creator for the good, and I get angry at Him over the bad. You seem not to grasp this. The creator has a Jekyll and Hyde personality full of contrasts and contradictions. He was in Mr. Hyde mode when He created ebola and jellyfish. Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7, in the King James Bible says:I make peace and create evil. So He has a split personality, being both good and evil. I cannot accept His evil side, and I cannot accept the evil side of His creation. You seem not to understand this. How can so much evil be produced by an all good creator God? And please dont tell me its because of free will and dont tell me the silly story of Adam and Eve eating a forbidden fruit. What does ebola, malaria, jellyfish, centipedes, hurricanes, and tsunamis have to do with free will? God or the creator is deficient and we mignt as well wake up and realize it.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      You see that is where you still error ,

      as example Adam and Eve were given everthing perfect. They even had the tree of life to live for eternity, yet they chose not forced to do what would kill them and us as well. They detached themself from the one who keeps everything living.

      Again if you were offered a lucrative Job

      with all benifits and you accepted it and worked it according to the Job details , it was up to you to perform on your promise and contract. Then later you decide you want a better position you want to be the boss and plan a takeover. Who planned all

      this? who schemes to take over. Even mistreatment of others to get to the top

      At what ever cost.

      The point is this is what we live in , and this is what it is all about taking what does not belong to another. Adam stole, satan stole, and the last count is very great , he has stole the opportunity for many to continue life in the future by acting and saying thing as you do. There is no future in stoning the one who has your life in his hand, satan uses the situation.

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      I see. So we all have to pay the price because Adam and Eve stole and because Satan stole. Yeah that really makes sense. Sigh. It really is impossible to reason with religious folks. So ruin human nature and ruin the creation and flush it all down the toilet for Satan's sin and because Adam and Eve ate a forbidden apple eons ago. I think I'll just sign myself to a mental hospital because we live in an insane world run by an insane, cruel, unreasoning God. Hopeless.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Well evidently you are still existing , when God could still have replaced easily a new pair of humans , and you would not have a voice at all. Like the example just because you create a problem does not make it the bosses just because you want to walk the opposite direction.

      Another example people who have good mates who have done nothing , who starts to think wrong and think they can do better then what they have , they leave their mate

      and persue another.

      the innocent mate is devastated because they believed this person really cared and loved them enough to be faithful , yet that was not good enough, they want bigger and better

      That person created their own situation.

      The other mate is innocent as far as their possition in the relationship.

      Angels , man have free will just as you do in speaking , but that does not make the way a person use it to be right. Because you act the way you think .

      In your comments I have not read one yet I can agree with.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 22 months ago

      I subscribed to a Youtube channel called Secular Talk a month or so ago which is basically a US news outlet for the most part.

      Its utterly terrifying some of the political stories the guy covers. The bulk of them involve religious politicians and the insane things they try to enforce.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      That example of a innocent mate clarify

      you do not have to be at fault just because someone decided to leave you mentally and physically.

      People create and follow their own desire.

      That also applies to the Heavenly Father.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Link, you might also be interested in the "Army of God" stuff - http://www.rawstory.com/2015/04/army-of-god-here-a...

      It's truly scary what these nut jobs believe in and want to force us to believe in. I want to do a hub about it, but it is so unbelievable to me that people actually believe in this stuff. I almost can't face it.

      If you are sitting around waiting for the "rapture" and "armageddon", then you are totally deranged in my book.

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Christians in some parts of this country are performing "Hell plays" where adults are dressed in Devil and demon costumes with pictures of fire to simulate the horrors of hell. "Thousands of degrees hot," "Like a volcano," "Abandon all hope all ye who enter here"are just some of the sick threats they use to instill fear. Other threats these sick people use are"You better repent and accept God and Jesus Christ and keep the commandments before its too late, otherwise its a one way trip to hell where sinners will be burning like charcoals forever." Many of these people believe that hell is located at the earth's inner core, many miles underground where temperatures can reach 12,000 degrees. Hotter than an oven. Its literally like an incinerator.

      Fundies such as Terry Watkins, Mary Baxter, Bill Wiese, and David J. Stewart describe the horrors of hell as having a lake of fire similar to a volcano, worms, a sewer like stench, suffocation or inability to breathe, giant spiders and giant snakes, being mutilated and sliced by demonic monsters, and being buried alive inside an enclosed, claustrophobic, coffin like environment. See David J. Stewart's sick disgusting site:Buried alive, the horrifying reality of hell, where he describes that victims in hell will suffer claustrophobia or being buried alive forever while burning in fire at the same time. I suffer from claustrophobia. Edgar Allan Poe was horrified by the thought of Premature Burial or being Buried Alive. Claustrophobia and suffocation. Imagine being buried alive FOREVER inside a closed coffin while being burned by fire at the same time. This is no longer just punishment for sin. This is CRIMINAL CRUELTY AND SADISM ON STEROIDS. Absolutely monstrous. This is beyond my worst nightmare and is vastly, infinitely worse than any horror movie. Its beyond sick. Its beyond monstrous. This is diabolical, malevolent, satanic. What kind of monster inflicts such tortures? What kind of CRIMINAL does this?Claustrophobia or being buried alive is one of the cruelest methods of torture, as is suffocation or inability to breathe, and as is being burned by fire. Its a God who is cruel like the Devil who is supposed to be His enemy. Absolutely monstrously cruel, inhuman, inhumane, sadistic torture beyond imagining. And according to Fundie Christians, billions of people are doomed to this unimaginably horrific fate. If thats true then we should all be living in fear and losing our sleep. At least 90 percent of all people are ending up in hell. This is a victory for the Devil and it makes Jesus Christ's sacrifice largely a failure for he came to save us from hell and he failed miserably. If 7 billion people are alive today, then at least 6.5 billion of them are doomed to hell. Why create billions of people who He knows beforehand will end up in hell? Its an insane, immoral, irresponsible, unreasoning, cruel jerkass for a God who does this.He is a monster.

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      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Austin nobody can make you believe in anything you do not wish to believe.

      Nore force, and vise versa, no matter what you have said just convinces me more , what the truth really is . Because you prove it just from your comments.

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      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Well if you allow them the power of believing what they dish out , then you feed their power. I have to for once agree on your observance of hell fire and clergy who use it . Thus is very true and exposed , thank you for truth on this subject, but why all the caos if there is nothing to hide.

      It is the truth , the real treasure in the right entrance into the New Earth and heavenly Goverment. To confuse people of

      A real citizenship . If satan can people in the dark up into the day that good God's good will is over , keep them misinformed

      Keep them acting against the true God .Then if people allow it then it shall be. GOD Almighty will not force his envite on no one. But it is your free will to decline and believe as you wish. But the truth will

      Without a doubt be manifested to all humans believing and not believing.

      This will is when God will be heard after his long silence .

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Did you read my previous comment about David J. Stewart's version of hell? Look up or google:Buried alive, the horrifying reality of hell, by David J. Stewart. Its beyond sick. He shows pictures of people buried alive in coffins and vaults, a subject which horrified Edgar Allan Poe. Claustrophobia, suffocation, and burning by fire are the tortures in hell, and its all forever, according to this sick, demented David J. Stewart. Imagine being buried alive forever inside a closed coffin and burning in fire at the same time. Claustrophobia forever, suffocation forever, and burning forever. This is a CRIME. It has scared the shit out of me. A God who inflicts such tortures is a criminal and monster who is monumentally, unimaginably, immeasurably, unbelievably cruel. Its too horrific to even contemplate. I live in endless fear of what may happen to me after I die with such a cruel, monstrous God.

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      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      K&T - I am no longer speaking to you. I would appreciate it if you would stop speaking to me.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      I am happy you made that very clear, I did not know you wanted me to stop posting to your comments , granted .

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral why is it you believe in the man made control doctrine? But you can not believe in the truth that God is not this monster people portray him to be.

      Why would people go out their way to get people to think this way? as you have said control. Why have you allowed this control to take over your mind.

      Simply sin is paid for by death as written

      When we die we owe nothing . All is settled of what we did.

      As example if you take a Job the wages for your work is settled.

      The same as past sins .also Jesus paid for many who will not have to die in the end.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      @Moral Man - The god of the bible is exactly as he is portrayed in the bible. You got it right. Or maybe the bible is wrong?

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Well let's hope God isnt the cruel, sadistic, vindictive, insane monster that people like David J. Stewart describe Him to be. Yes we're all sinners but not all of us deserve to be tortured forever by fire, suffocation, and claustrophobia. Imagine being locked inside a closed coffin forever, suffocating and unable to breathe, and being burned by fire at the same time, and its forever. I cannot imagine a God being any more evil than this. I cannot imagine a more cruel fate than this. This is criminal behavior. This is overcharged, supercharged cruelty and sadism on steroids. Theres a difference between just punishment for sin and unimaginable, monstrous, sadistic, inhuman cruelty, torture, and horror, and this God doesnt know the difference. This God chooses the cruelest and worst forms of torture to punish human sin. Its as if He is aiming for the maximum amount of torture possible. When it comes to cruelty this God is an overachiever, but when it comes to kindness, mercifulness, caring, and nurturing, He is a failure or an F minus. Allow the sin, punish the sin, allow the sin, punish the sin, ad nauseam, ad infinitum is His motto. He has no solution to offer us and allows s to remain in our sins, allows us to suffer and die, allows Satan and demons to tamper, corrupt, torment,and ruin His creation, and allows mass division and mass confusion over interpreting the Bible, and this is a win for the Devil. Human nature is such and the world is such that its GEARED AND DESIGNED for billions of people to end up in hell. Why allow billions of people to be born who He knows will end up in hell? This is a seriously DEFICIENT God. Thats why the world is the hellhole that it is and thats why the Devil is winning.

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      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral as you have also noted why would God allow people to be born just to burn,

      The problem is with certain people's comment they can believe in God if he is a monster, but they can not if he is not and give us a wonderful future ahead. You can not have it both ways .

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Well this Bible God is full of contradictions. He is the original, cosmic Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde with a split personality. He loves us with one hand and He strangles us with the other hand. Or He loves us on one hand and just neglects us on the other hand. See or google Yahweh the two faced God. He is both a kind father and a cruel monster. Both good and evil flows from this God. Morally ambivalent. Its a God of contrasts, contradictions, opposites, and extremes. He is like Gandhi on one hand and like Vlad the Impaler on the other hand. Did the same God who created lovely fruits also create cancer? The creator's intelligence goes hand in hand with His stupidity. The creator was in Mr. Hyde mode when He created cancer, ebola, centipedes, ticks, tooth decay, violence, execrement, earwigs, hookworms, hurricanes, and tsunamis. The Mr. Hyde in Him continues to allow evil, sin, suffering, and death to continue ad nauseam, ad infinitum.

      The creator made more mouths than He can feed. Overpopulation and mass starvation in humans, cats, and dogs is a huge problem. The creator is irresponsible, immoral, amoral, incompetent, careless, negligent, cruel.

      Someone suggested that God or the creator needs to get glasses to see all the evil thats going on in the world. I dont think tbe creator is visually blind, but I believe He is MENTALLY BLIND AND MORALLY BLIND and is unable to see the cruelty, the wrong, the immorality, insanity, irresponsibleness, stupidity, and destructiveness of what He does and what He allows. He is insane in a cruel manner. I believe that if we need to give this God something, I would try to give Him a conscience, for its apparent that He has NONE. He has no common sense, no reasoning, no heart, no pity, no mercy, no morals, and no conscience, and this is a win for the Devil and its a win for evil. God's deficiency is the Devil's opportunity. Evil and suffering abounds and the Devil flourishes and we have a God who allows it. Its pitiful and embarrassing. I wish there was another God, because what we have sucks.

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      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      No I do not agree and millions other do not , if God were evil we would just die without a hope or cure, we have one paid in full. But if you do not believe it how can you recieve the gift of a life down the road

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      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Moral - humans have lots of other gods, some of them are actually NICE to their humans. The Wiccan Goddess is quite benevolent. Of course, I don't believe in her either.

      My mother's people, the Choctaw, and most Native Americans have NATURE gods like Father Sky and Mother Earth. They are a couple of pretty nice gods too, as far as I can tell. At least they aren't condemning everyone that doesn't "believe and worship" them into eternal damnation.

      The Native American gods represent the Circle of Life which applies to the entire universe! Check them out, you might like them a lot better than the biblical god.

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      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral I find it very contradictory of one who claims not believe in god , and tell people to believe in a god period .and all things listed are things that were created

      are told to worship, thats like saying do not believe in a car , and then you are seen driving in traffic. Also it is very obvious that magic has been introduced in

      the comment as a good thing , it is not it is an open door to Satan's realm and used by many occults

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 22 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Of course certain people bad mouth Native American religion. They are the one's that tried to wipe out the whole culture and our indigenous society. Called us "heathens" and handed out blankets soaked in small pox to kill our children. The white man's god is soo fucccking wonderful, yeah?

      I's no wonder that the Choctaw continue to practice their own religion. The Christian religion is HORRIBLE!

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Kiss and Tales Im not contradicting myself. You really need to pay more attention when you read. Im not a disbeliever and Im not an atheist. I believe in a deficient God. Thats not the same thing as atheism. Dystheism, Dualism, Maltheism, and Deism are all examples of a deficient God. Learn these terms if you want to understand what Im saying. Dystheism is the belief that God exists but is not all good, Maltheism is the belief in an evil God, Deism is the belief in a remote, aloof, detached, disconnected, uncaring God, and Dualism is the belief in a weak God who is not in control of His creation. They should come uo with a term for an insane God and they should come up with a term for a stupid God. Tbe Bible God is deficient.

      Im tired now. I'll write later.

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      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral If you would really read what I am saying I am not saying it to you but through you. People who post to you , as I also post through you. So my comment was really not for you.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Also people think they know of all details of culture , people are limited to knowledge on many things , but how you represent that culture says alot, cursing would not draw my interest , nore stoning others beliefs and rights would certainly be a turn off. Example if a person said this car is the best performing car on the road,

      And on the Highway this car is seen always being towed away. That tells you talk is cheap and so is that example of a car. So would I run off and buy that type.

      No.

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Kiss and Tales Im not sure I understand when you said in a previous comment that there is magic in my comment and this opens a door to Satan's realm and the occult. Firstly, I hate Satan and I fear him. I have been accused of being influenced by Satan because of my anger at God. Anytime someone says something negative about God and the Bible are accused of being corrupted by Satan. "Oh, its Satan who is making you talk like that. Its Satan who makes you insult God and the Bible." Or maybe its my own intellect.

      When I said that I believe God is evil, I should clarify that this is a possibility but not a certainty. God could be insane or God could be stupid rather than evil. Or just uncaring. Or God could be good but weak(Dualism). I dont know and no one else knows what God's deficiency is. We can only guess and speculate. If God is evil, I believe He is partly evil, or a Jekyll and Hyde. I dont believe He is totally evil. He isnt totally good and He isnt totally evil but is a mix of good and evil. Morally ambivalent. Its scary enough just being partly evil. Just being partly evil is horrible enough.

      The Bible God is neither all good, neither all loving, neither all knowing, and neither all wise, and I believe He is insane and stupid and has no common sense and has no reasoning. This God doesnt know things. In the Passover story, this God tells His chosen people to smear blood on their houses so He doesnt accidently mistake them for the Egyptians as He goes on His usual murderous rampages. Whats this??? This God DOESNT EVEN KNOW who lives in each house? There goes omniscience out the window. Theres a difference to what people believe about God and to what actually is in the Bible. The Bible God is a flawed, deficient being.

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      Norine Williams 22 months ago

      Moral: "... for using MY intellect, reasoning, and logic and for being morally sensitive and for refusing to love a cruel, insane, unreasoning,irresponsible, careless, negligent, immoral, amoral God."

      WOW!

      Humble yourself!

      Proverbs 3:5 tell us to "TRUST in the LORD with all thine heart, and LEAN NOT TO OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING!"

      This is the FIRST STEP!

      Although His Ways sound "crazy" to some (our opinion), He's looking at "overall picture," while we are "LIMITED!"

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Humble yourself. Im actually humble and modest. I just cant accept cruelty, insanity, unreasonableness,. negligence, irresponsibility, incompetence, stupidity, and disconnectedness, especially when all these negative traits are found in God. Its a DEFICIENT God.

      So we dont see the overall picture like God? Yes Ive heard that execuse many times. God's ways are unknowable and mysterious and us humans with our puny little brains cant comprehend the ways of God. When all of your other arguments fail, and lets face it, they do fail, you religious folks use as your trump card that God's ways are unknowable and mysterious. So that gets the creator off the hook and absolves Him? So this justifies having or allowing thousands to millions of years of Natural evil, Human evil and sin, and pain, suffering, death, and extinctions?This God is either insane or not in control of His creation. Something is amiss.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral can you undo sickness ? Death?

      Can you undo all the the things you just name ? No man can, But the heavenly Father can undo all the bad things done on this earth.

      Just like children that run and play and make a big mess of things , soon all comes to an end , it is time to clean house ,

      This is our case as well ,for the earth belongs to Him , we are just allowed to live in for our small lifetime, but if we show that we are not part of the problem

      Of all the things you listed , then we can keep living here.

      Isa 45:12 I made the earth and created man on it. I stretched out the heavens with my own hands, And I give orders to all their army.”

      Ps 37:11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

      Would the heavenly Father consider us a meek one to inherit the earth?

      Because these are the humans that will posses every part of the earth, can we work with him to make earth the paradise

      it was created for right from the very beginning of time. MORAL while you are busy finding fault you are missing out on the most wonderful hope we all can have

      The real future of peace and happiness

      Without sickness and death at our doors.

      Re 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

      All these things will be things of the past,

      Notice ! Isa 33:24 And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error

      There was cured paid for all things moral

      We must not dwell on the past but the cure soon to be given to all those wanting it , and having faith .

    • profile image

      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Can I undo sickness and death? You ask me. No I cant. I wish I could. If I could heal things and find cures to diseases then I would do it in a heartbeat. No one hates diseases more than me. Disease is a crime and the creator of disease is the worst kind of criminal. Why do you think Im so angry at the creator and why do you think Im so pessimistic, sad, and depressed? Disease is one of the biggest reasons why Im a pessimist.

      So God can undo disease and death? WHEN? WHEN? WHEN? Until everyone and everything is dead and extinct? After the sun burns itself out billions of years from now? You can time this God with a calendar, or a GEOLOGICAL calendar. AustinStar made a valid point. Why cant this God be nice to us in this earthly life while we're still alive? So God can only help us in the next life and not in this life. We have to suffer and die first. And God can only heal this broken cursed planet eons into the future. What is taking so immeasurably, indefinitely long for this God to heal us? He couldnt heal this wretched, cursed planet in a billion years. Im sure not going to live long enough to see it.

      According to religious folks this earthly life doesnt count. We're sll expected to suffer and die like JEEZUS and we're all expected to be religious fanatics, ascetics, masochists, and martyrs like JEEZUS. So pluck out your eyes, cut off your hands, make yourself penniless and homeless, deny, forsake, and forget everything and everyone you love, and take up your cross(literally) and follow Jesus. Its unrealistic. How many people want to live like this? How many people are able to live like this even if they tried to? Its out of touch with reality. So Christians are you all living penniless, poor, and homeless on the streets like Jesus? Its a masochistic religion.

      One of the core messages of Christianity is that this earthly life doesnt count. So it doesnt matter how horrible our lives are because it will be compensated for us in the next life in heaven. Well, not everyone believes in a heaven and not everyone believes in an afterlife, so the promise of a happy afterlife in heaven is empty for unbelievers. And finally, traditional Christianity teaches that the greater part of humanity is doomed to hell in the next life. So after this temporary earthly hell, countless people are going to wake up to the real hell which is a thousand times worse and lasts forever. A loving, merciful, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient, rational, sane God would not do this. Its a misrun, mismanaged creation. The world is a hellhole and horror movie ruled by the Devil and not by a loving God.

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      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral there were people born before you , with the same experiences , but we are not in any position to say or think we have the right to move the hand of God when we want it to move.

      Can you go in a court room and demand the Judge to do as you wish when you want .No!

      That court room is his territory and position

      We do not boss the Judge around just because we have a case of complaints.

      Really if you go to far with disrepect of his position then it is contempt of court with consequences.

      The heavenly realm is the highest court of all

      Courts ,Notice scriptures ,

      Da 7:10 A stream of fire was flowing and going out from before him. A thousand thousands kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The Court took its seat, and books were opened.

      Ps 9:8 He will judge the inhabited earth in righteousness; He will render righteous legal decisions for the nations.

      Ps 10:13 Why has the wicked one disrespected God? He says in his heart: “You will not hold me accountable.”

      Even though you do not have all the answers there is no room or right to disrepect. That is what happen to faithful Job, satan tested him in sickness , and death of family , yet he survived in a good standing with the heavenly Father.

      Are you being tested? Are you answering

      like Job, or are you cursing god?

      Moral let your life count for something

      Jesus was killed but he conquered

      So can you.

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      My life is nightmarish and has been since I was an infant. Ive been suffering from depression and loneliness since a teenager. People are cruel and Nature is cruel.

      Religious folks often say that Natural evils such as diseases, hurricanes, tsunamis, centipedes, mosquitoes, ticks, jellyfish are a punishment from God for our sins. I object to this. First of all, its very unfair to allow Adam and Eve's sin to spread and corrupt all future unborn humans. Secondly, the presence of humans sin and evil is sufficient punishment for our sins. Lets face it, with all this human cruelty and sin, humans have made the world into A HELL for themselves and for the animal kingdom. Why then do we need to have Natural evils to punish us? Isnt it horrible enough that humans cause so much misery with their selfishness, pollution, violence, carnage, greed, crime, genocides, and grievous accidents. Just look at the deplorable carnage on roads and highways. Why does God decide to add to this misery by inflicting Natural evils such as cancer and centipedes? The world is twofold a hell.

      Diseases are an inexecusable evil. Of the legion of diseases which torture and kill man and beast, two of the worst are stroke and aneurysm. In stroke, a blood vessel either clots or bleeds and in an aneurysm, a blood vessel balloons and ruptured. Both stroke and aneurysm are painful beyond imagining and can be as lethal as a bullet wound. Any victims who survive are often handicapped in some manner and will continue to be at risk for the rest of their lives. Why did the creator do such a careless, sloppy, lousy job in designing the bodies of humans and animals? The blood vessels, heart, the teeth, the eyes, the brain, the kidneys, the stomach, the liver, and the urinary system are all prone to defects, disorders, and diseases, and dentists, hospitals, funeral homes, and cemeteries are full of victims. The creator is an incompetent idiot, or an insane lunatic, or a cruel, sadistic, malevolent fiend. The creator of disease is immoral, amoral scum.

      My poor father had dengue fever from a mosquito bite, kidney stone, heart attacks and anginas, toothache, hernia, stroke, and died from heart failure in 2011 after a long history of health problems. My poor mother had two strokes and a history of migraine headache. She suffered from migraine from 1986 or 1987 to the time of her death. Thats 28 or 29 years of immense suffering. Both the strokes she had were agonizingly painful. The second stroke she had in February 2015 ended her life. Her last words were that she had a strong pain on the right side of her head. Im heartbroken and angry. The sadness I feel is beyond description. Theres a horrible sunken feeling in my heart. My beloved mother was a kindhearted, loving person who loved me and was my friend and support. Im all alone in the house and theres a painful privation and painful deprivation in my life. The depression and loneliness has gotten worse since my mother died. My life is now worse and poorer. When I look back at the hell my poor family and I went through and the day after torturous day at the hospital and emergency rooms, it makes my blood boil in anger. Its unforgivable.

      While at the hospital's Intensive Care Unit, I witnessed other victims of diseases and injuries. I witnessed and heard people crying, moaning, screaming, vomiting, and shitting. Its like being in a damn horror movie. What kind of God allows this hell? How can a loving God get it so wrong? How about old people in nursing homes? Is it punishment for Adam and Eve's sin why old people piss and shit on the floor? Its disgusting, disgraceful, despicable, and a CRIME which Nature inflicts on its creatures. All this evil and cruelty is the work of the Devil.

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      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral why do think you should be exempt from being test, we all will be . Even Jesus was . So again there you go throwing stones

      Complaining about what happen to them, there tests is over they have died, you still live and can make a good name by how you stand in trials and suffering, Stop blaming God for your problems because as long as you do satan will keep using it because it works., you are not standing up for you future. You are killing it.

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Stop blaming God for my problems? Who am I supposed to blame? If God is the creator of all things then He is to blame, and if God didnt create evil then who did, and WHY is He allowing it? So Satan profits when I blame God? Why is this God tolerating and allowing Satan to corrupt and ruin His creation? Is the free will of Satan and demons more important? So God is testing me and everyone else? Its a cruel, immoral, destructive test. How many people are faiiling this test, and if we fail His test then its hell. Whether its testing our faith or punishing us for sin, this God allows us to suffer beyond what we can imagine.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      You are so busy blaming and and having a pity party that you have lost the thought of what you do have , you have something billions of people do not have , you are a living soul. What he is allowing you can live with until he undo and completely remove satan, yet you are supporting the enemy of God . How sad.

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Im not supporting the enemy of God. Its God who ALLOWS Satan all this freedom and power. Its God who ALLOWS Satan to tamper, corrupt, torment, and ruin His creation. Its too bad you cant see that. A God who allows Satan and demons to screw with His creation and who allows EONS of evil, sin, suffering, and death is a pitiful execuse for a God.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 22 months ago

      Huh, rather surprised the conversation actually came full circle back to the original hub topic.

      Not that I really mind otherwise, just caught me by surprise...

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 22 months ago

      Moral you are very dark. And even though you are you never can admit the gift of God, Life, you continue to talk against him who gives you life. I see no wisdom or good reason for that. Because all cures , all good things , all promises will be fulfilled as he said, You also fulfill scripture by your choice in attitude and words.

      But it is God who judges I do not have anything else to say to you.

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      Moral Man 22 months ago

      Good. I am the way I am because the creator made me so. The creator is cruell, insane, immoral, amoral, careless, negligent, incompetent, irresponsible, and His intelligence goes hand in hand with His stupidity.

      Gnostics believe in at least two Gods. The Demiurge or Ialdabaoth is a false inferior, flawed, incompetent, immoral, amoral, insane being who created this screwed up world. The true good God is remote, weak, and unable to help us. Gnostic religion is Dualistic or believes in a weak God who is not in control of His creation. Manicheism and Zoroastrianism are also Dualistic religions, as opposed to Monistic religions or Monism. Fundamentalism, Judaism, and Islam are all Monistic religions and believe in a powerful God who is in control of His creation. To me, the God of Monism is cruel and insane, and the God of Dualism is good but wesk. Either way its a deficient God, and either way the creation is screwed and ruined, and either way its a win for the Devil.

      I see evil everywhere, Natural evil and Human evil. My house is infested with disgusting, gross, repulsive vermin such as spiders, ants, earwigs, clothes moths. The repulsive and venomous widow spiders are everywhere. Mosquitoes and ticks are outdoors making visits to parks uncomfortable and hazardous. While I like hiking and I love picnics and sightseeing, theres also a dark side to the outdoors. Mosquitoes, ticks, snakes, spiders, centipedes, horseflies, intense cold, intense heat make the outdoors a lousy, miserable experience. Im often pestered by mosquitoes and I have had two tick bites. While there is beauty in outdoor scenery, theres also decay, degeneration, death, bleakness. Everywhere I see fallen leaves and broken branches. Bleakness and decay.

      There are spiders and spiderwebs and the bodies of dead insects everywhere I look. Its gross and repulsive and mames me want to throw up. Nature is repulsive as well as cruel and dangerous. The real world is like a horror movie where everything vile, gross, repulsive, deadly, and cruel exists. Horror movies and horror novels are a sad reflection of a cruel, dangerous, deadly, gross, repulsive world.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 21 months ago

      Morale: John 15:5 says "...without me YOU can do NOTHING!" You are still here, aren't you? For that, you should give HIM praise! We all have testimonies that would break one's heart (as yours do) and we have been disappointed time after time as you have, but who else can we turn to? We (as maybe you) have suffered, felt alone, seen how "man" has created a hell on earth for humans, but we have nothing else that DOES fill that empty spot you are feeling and have turned to GOD and found fulfillment!

      We are given another "chance" (each day we open our eyes) to "Lean not to our own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5) and serve the Lord. You cannot serve TWO masters, you either hate the one or love the other [paraphrasing] (Matthew 6:24). If you continue to use your "common sense" when Proverbs told you not to and look at Scripture "in the Spirit," you will never understand!

      II Chronicles 7:14 says "If my people, who are called by my name, shall HUMBLE THEMSELVES, and PRAY, and SEEK my face, and TURN from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will FORGIVE their sin, and will HEAL THEIR LAND." Don't you wont your "land" to be healed? Aren't you tired of feeling sad and alone because of your "common sense" beliefs?

      I'm sure you've TRIED other things to overcome these feelings, but have you TRIED JESUS? Humble yourself, lean not to your own understanding (common sense), pray, and TRY JESUS! It doesn't cost you anything but time!

      Leave "your stinking thinking" and submit to Him! How are you going to experience anything different if you continue to do (think) what you've always done? Try Something different! Renew your mind (Romans 12:2; Ephesians 4:23)! "Your thinking" is irrelevant! You CAN renew your mind and experience ALL of the BENEFITS that comes with trusting, believing and having faith in JESUS! No more loneliness, sadness, but peace, joy, happiness, love and EONS of other BENEFITS!

      I love you (Godly love) and wish NO ONE is LOST! I'm praying! For your testimony touches my heart!

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      Moral Man 21 months ago

      Norine I cannot just discard my common sense, logic, intellect, reasoning, and reality and throw it all out the window in order to have blind faith and blind trust. God is an absentee landlord and the Bible and Christianity is a morass of contradictions and confusion. The Holy Spirit is doing a lousy job in helping people understand scripture because mass disagreement, mass division, mass confusion, and numerous different churches, denominations, and sects exist, and numerous different Bible translations exist. God is a confused being who cant seem to make up His mind and who is unable to communicate with people in a clear manner for all to understand. Or He just doesnt care one way or the other what we believe or dont believe. Its a remote, aloof, dissociated, disinterested, disconnected, detached God who behaves as if He doesnt exist, and who behaves as if we dont exist. A God who cant communicate with us and a God who lets us remain in our sins and who lets us suffer and die is a pitiful execuse for a deity.

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      Norine Williams 21 months ago

      MM: Until you "... discard my common sense, logic, intellect, reasoning, and reality and throw it all out the window in order to have blind faith and blind trust," you will NEVER experience BENEFITS that accommodate "UNDERSTANDING" from the "GIFT" of the HOLY SPIRIT! This is a "SPIRITUAL" journey (SUPERNATURAL) which DOES NOT include one's "common sense, logic, intellect, reason and reality" (Proverbs 3:5), but "giving up" after trying "ALL ELSE" and have found that NOTHING works! Using one's ability to figure it out is as if mixing oil with water, totally opposite and DEFINITELY will not work!

      As I stated previously, IF YOU CONTINUE TO THINK OR DO AS YOU'VE ALWAYS HAVE (GIVE UP OR HUMBLE YOURSELF FOR YOU'VE TRIED YOUR WAY AND IT DOESN'T WORK), THERE WILL "NEVER" BE A CHANGE! "Do not conform to the pattern

      From your conversation, you are NOT happy, so why not give it a "SPIRITUAL" try? It's time to GROW UP! Move from the "CARNAL" realm into the "SPIRITUAL" which is "GROWTH" in LIFE! A child can think as you think, but getting in contact with your "spiritual being" is movement toward MATURITY! Take "CONTROL" of your life by getting in touch with your "inner being" or your "spirit!" MEDITATE on your "inner being" each morning, cry out to God (turn to Him with an HONEST/PURE heart), PRAY, BELIEVING and asking Him to SHOW YOU HIS WAY! Read your Bible daily for His Word is HIM talking directly to YOU!

      All else have failed, why not try JESUS? Aren't you tired? I was! I was seeking "fulfillment" in man (disappointment) and "things" which DID NOT satisfy the "emptiness" within. But once I surrendered "ALL" (I told Him - " I give us JESUS" and meant it with ALL my HEART, which is precisely where He wants us), the "emptiness" was "fulfilled!"

      Maybe it's easier for a female versus a male to "give up, surrender or humble oneself" because of "ego," but God wants us to depend TOTALLY on HIM. No more "our way" but "His Way!" If you only KNEW (experience as I have) the BENEFITS He gives, you would not feel the way you currently do! Try Him to "see" Him in action! You've tried all else! It doesn't cost you anything! Why not?

      Regarding "The Holy Spirit is doing a lousy job in helping people understand scripture..." MM, as children in school, the Holy Spirit operates on one's belief in scripture, which is on different levels from kindergarten to PhD. As a child in school, the Holy Spirit does not give one a PhD in the "understanding" of scripture immediately! We couldn't handle IT! Knowing God depends on how EARNEST (diligently) one is in "seeking His Face" which comes from reading and searching scripture "rightly dividing His Word" (II Timothy 2:15) to "see" what He has said. Because of "religion, tradition, and one's "own understanding" which is not of the Holy Spirit, many denominations exists. However, this is Satan's job (John 10:10) "to kill, steal and destroy!" Scripture tells "Disciples of Christ" (not Christians which was first used as a "derogatory phrase" conned by non-believers) to be on "ONE ACCORD" but "religion, tradition and one's own understanding" prevents this (John 10:10); therefore, many denominations exist! God will NOT tie one down and make him believe or try Him! We all have "free will" but after trying and experiencing all of His Benefits, my God, (I wish you would) you will believe!

      As I've stated previously, whether we like it or not - HE is GOD! He made us, we belong to Him and we will return to Him. As Kiss & Tales said "We would not go into a courtroom and tell the judge how to operate" so why do we question GOD? HE is the judge - He is GOD! We "fear" the judge why do we not fear the Lord? We do not agree with all of the judge's rulings but we must abide. The same it is with GOD! Scripture says "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM, and KNOWLEDGE of the Holy One is UNDERSTANDING" (Proverbs 9:10)! He is GOD and there is NOTHING we can do about it! He made us! We BELONG to HIM!

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      Norine Williams 21 months ago

      MM: I omitted this Scripture: Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world, but be ye TRANSFORMED by the RENEWING OF YOUR MIND, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

      I love you MM. I am still praying! For I KNOW that with GOD, ALL THINGS are possible and HE is GOD with more authority than "the judge!"

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      Moral Man 21 months ago

      Its kind of you Norine. You're a kind loving person but the God you worship isnt. Actually no one knows what God is really like, I dont know and you dont know, so anything we say is pure personal opinion and pure speculation.

      In my personal opinion, this God just doesnt care. It makes no difference to Him how horrible our lives are. Cruel indifference. He is merciless and amoral like the Nature He created, or He has a Jekyll and Hyde personality. He was in Mr. Hyde mode when He created cancer, tooth decay, tapeworms, screw worm flies, centipedes, widow spiders, ticks, fleas, lice, jellyfish, stonefish, the guinea worm, hurricanes, tsunamis, birth defects, and miscarriages. The creator of disease is a criminal, monster, fiend. Immoral, amoral scum describes the creator of disease.

      I said it before and it bears repeating. This God is a blind hypocrite who cannot see sin in His own behavior and who cannot see sin in His monstrously cruel, inhumane, disgusting punishments, and who cannot see sin in His cruelty and negligence, and who cannot see sin in the suffering and evil He ALLOWS. Immoral, irresponsible, incompetent.

      So we're not to complain about God because He is God? We're not to complain about a judge doing his job? Really? Suppose the judge is dishonest, corrupt, and stupid? Would you still respect him? What makes us think that God or the creator is loving, good, merciful, wise, moral, and just? Its wishful thinking and centuries of religious indoctrination why we believe this and its not based on logic and reality. So God can be cruel, lazy, irresponsible, incompetent, unfair, unreasoning, unkind, and that makes it ok because He is God? If a human being behaved as God does He would be thrown in jail or executed.

      All the praying in the world is useless. We're wasting our breath because no one up there cares. Does He even pay attention to whats going on in the world? We may as well be praying to a tree trunk. When I pray I feel like Im talking to myself or talking to the walls. This God doesnt help, doesnt heal, doesnt provide, doesnt protect, and doesnt even have the courtesy to answer us. At least talk to us and tell us what we need to know and what we want to know. Thats the LEAST He should do. Instead He chooses to remain silent, hidden, withdrawn, remote, aloof, disconnected. Its pitiful. This is why God and Jesus FAIL to fulfill our lives because both God and Jesus are remote, aloof, disconnected.

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      Norine Williams 21 months ago

      My heart breaks! You've put a "hedge" around yourself that WILL NOT ALLOW GOD to reveal Himself unto you! He WON'T reveal His Power unless you change your way of thinking! I KNOW what God is like! I've "HUMBLED MYSELF..." (II Chronicles 7:14), and have EXPERIENCED things you say don't happen!

      Prayer changes things! He Cares! This GOD helps by leading and guiding me in EVERY aspect of my life (even providing the least of things such as a parking space up front when lot is crowded).

      I am a breast cancer survivor of approximately 20 years! I was healed by a Prophet of God from teeth problems and have not had another toothache for over 30 years! I do not work and have NEVER wanted for anything! I have a 2400 sf 4 BR home, 2013 car, healthy children, a loving husband, and cannot say "He does not provide!" He has protected me during my "years" in sin and still does! I should be dead, to say the least! Because I have "experienced" His love and kindness, I cannot agree!

      He answers me whenever I call Him for whatever I need! He may not answer immediately, but He does answer! He's NEVER "remained silent, hidden, withdrawn, remote, aloof, disconnected." Reason: I've "given up," or "humbled myself!" Have you ever heard this phrase? "Let go and Let God!" "Let go" of your current thinking and what "you" think is "right!" Cast all your cares (I Peter 5:7; Psalms 55:22) upon the Lord and "Let God" WORK by revealing His Powers unto you! He loves and cares for you but you won't let Him operate! He FULFILLS EVERY aspect of my life for I have "humbled myself" and allowed Him to take FULL CONTROL!

      It doesn't cost one anything! Give it a try! Pray and tell Him, "OK God, I come to you with an open heart, praying and asking that you reveal yourself to me! I've tried everything else! Now I come to You for there is no one or nothing else that has helped me! Help me Lord, I pray, change my way of thinking! Create in me a "clean heart" (David), that I may get to know you personally! I promise I will be everything You want me to be, go any place You want me to go, do anything You want me to do, if You will only reveal Yourself unto me! These things I ask in your name Jesus, and I "believe" it will be done! For you have said in YOUR WORD JESUS (John 14:14) "Anything I ask in your name will be done" which I "Believe!" This is my prayer Dear LORD! In your precious name - JESUS - Amen. If you ask with a "pure heart" it shall be done!

      I love you and will continue to pray with you and for you! Begin studying the Bible for it is your "communication line" with God! His Word is Him talking to you directly! Meditate upon His Word day and night! Start with Psalms 23!

      I pray that the "barrier" you've created is destroyed which prevents God from operating in your life! For He loves you and so do I. Stay Blessed!

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      Moral Man 21 months ago

      My heart breaks too at what a failure we have for a God. Its God who has created a barrier.

      Im glad you recovered from cancer and from tooth decay. But how do you know it was a miracle? Sometimes the body is able to heal on its own or improvement in diet and lifestyle, going to doctors and dentists, taking medication, and getting surgery can fend off disease. All too often, prayers go unanswered and suffering and death continues. I had a beloved aunt in California who was afflicted with cancer from January 1985 to November 2006 when the disease ended her life. On and off she suffered. Tons of people prayed for her but she suffered and died anyway. The only reason she survived for almost 21 years with this cruel, horrible, disgusting disease is because she went to the hospital for treatment and went on a strict, healthy diet.

      Why should I have to discard my common sense, logic, reasoning, and intellect? So I have to close my mind and close my eyes to reality so I can have faith in God and the Bible? This is insane.. Im tired now. I'll write later.

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      Moral Man 21 months ago

      The Bible God is insane and a psychopath. He has a violent, bloodthirsty, cruel, sadistic side and a masochistic side as well. He's a hypocrite and moral monstrosity, morally incomprehensible, morally impossible. It just doesnt make sense.

      This God creates us humans with certain drives, needs, and desires and then punishes us for it. Its sick, twisted, perverted. He gave most humans a strong sex drive, He made us very violent, aggressive, territorial, jealous, and selfish, and then He punishes us for being what He created us to be. This is like designing a car to go forward and then not allowing it to go forward. Can someone say insane? Its His own stupid fault why us humans are evil and sinful, and He stupidly allows all this sin to continue which He supposedly hates so much. This God is a jackass and a jerkass.

      Stephen Fry the comic stated in a recent interview that if there is a God then He is a monster and maniac. "Bone cancer in children? Whats that about? How dare you? How dare you create a world full of pain, misery, and injustice?"

      God cursed and punished the entire creation for the sin of 2 people, Adam and Eve. Its so unfair, unreasoning, insane, irrational, cruel, and stupid. A clam has more sense than this God you worship Christians. So Christians, if you follow this God's behavior, you would curse and punish your children and their childrens children to the end of time. Is this love and mercifulness? Obviously not. A clam has more compassion than this God. With a God as cruel, as unreasoning, as insane, as stupid, as irresponsible, as negligent, and as incompetent as this God, who needs a Devil? With a God like this, who needs enemies?

      The longer this experiment in free will goes on the more people who are going to end up in hell. I wish there was a way we could give this God common sense and give Him reasoning because He has NONE of either. Ruthless, heartless, pitiless, merciless, careless, brainless.

      Any God or being who creates a world full of predation, violence, carnage, killing, venoms, poisons, parasites, execrement, diseases, hurricanes, tsunamis, is INSANE. Its SICK. For shame, for shame.

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      Moral Man 21 months ago

      The creator of this world and especially the creator of diseases, vermin, jellyfish, centipedes, widow spiders, physical deformities, hurricanes, tsunamis, is a monster, maniac, lunatic, and idiot. Immoral amoral scum, degenerate diirtbag describes the creator of diseases. Creating, causing, or allowing eons of evil, pain, and death is a CRIME AND DISGRACE. Its unforgivable.

      Claiming that we all have to suffer and die because two ancient humans ate a forbidden fruit is beyond stupid and beyond insane. So this is the best explanation religious folks claim to explain why the world is the misery filled shithole that it is. STUPID. And its a stupid, insane, unreasoning cruel God who ruins His entire creation for the sin of two people. Not even Laurel and Hardy and the 3 Stooges would do something this stupid. And religious folks claim this God is loving and 'merrrrciful.' Yeah right, and Im Bill Gates. This God has no clue what mercy is, and has no clue how to run a creation in a merciful, humane, intelligent, constructive manner. He is clueless and absent

      A loving, merciful God would not allow our loved ones to suffer and die and would not allow our loved ones to be snatched away from us. Thats just something you dont do. Ruthless, heartless, merciless, pitiless, cruel prick who lets us suffer and die. He has no heart, no pity, no mercy, no morals, no common sense, no reasoning, and no conscience. Immoral, amoral, merciless, mentally blind, morally blind.Theres not a bigger embarrassment and theres not a bigger crime than in creating a world filled with evil, cruelty, misery, and death, AND allowing it to continue this way for thousands to millions of years. Its CRIMINALLY EMBARRASSING. The world is ruled by evil and not by a loving God.

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      Moral Man 21 months ago

      The Bible God is a colossal screwup, failure, dunce who cant do much of anything right. He bungled in every major category. He bungled with Hunans, He bungled in making our bodies, He bungled in making our brains, He bungled with our free will, He bungled with Nature, He bungled with the animal kingdom, He bungled with the plant kingdom, He bungled with the elements(poisons and carcinogens), He bungled with the climate and weather, and He bungled with the angels(at least 1/3 of the angels turned bad and became demons under Satan.) This is disturbing, embarrassing, and infuriating. Just about anything this God creates is PRONE or AT RISK for:1) becoming evil or sinful, 2) becoming violent, cruel, dangerous, deadly, destructive, repulsive, 3) being prone to have physical defects which result in disease. To give an analogy of this creator God's behavior in human terms, this is like a human painter or artist who makes a gorgeous painting but who inexplicably decides to ruin it by dumping dung all over it. Why ruin your work? Why ruin your creation with all this evil? Go figure. The creator is mentally insane with a Jekyll and Hyde personality and you can see this in the Nature He created and in the human beings He created.

      Religious folks constantly make execuses, alibis, and arguments to get this creator God off the hook. They say things like God suffers with His creation and that we have no right to get angry at God and we have no right to complain. So God is a masochist as well as a cruel sadist who inflicts suffering on His creation and who suffers Himself. Us humans with our puny little brains cant comprehend God's unknowable, mysterious reasons. This is INSANE beyond belief. Its a God who feels the need to inflict and allow suffering to His creation and who suffers Himself and who refuses to tell us and who refuses to explain to us why it has to be this way. If we dont know and dont understand, then TELL US and make us understand. Why keep silent and secret about it? Enough expecting blind faith and blind trust from us. WHY cant He speak up for Himself instead of leaving us to endlessly speculate and agonize and then telling us we dont understand. How can we understand if He doesnt tell us?

      This God is a flunkie, dunce, failure, bungle, goof, absentee landlord. He doesnt know how to be a good, caring God. He bungled in every major department. He is a BUNGLE. He is deeply, profoundly insane. The God we worship needs serious psychiatric help. Most disturbingly is His cruelty. He is cruel beyond imagining.

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      I’m sorry it took me so long to respond, but I delivered my freshman granddaughter to an out of state college which has taken the majority of my time in the last few weeks. Thanks for acknowledging my recovery from cancer and tooth decay. Did I not tell you that my father took me to a prophet and the prophet called me out regarding tooth decay? It happened during a healing meeting in which I was called from audience, felt something (as if “pop rocks” if you remember the candy) popping inside my mouth and I have never experienced toothaches since! Believe me, it was not “going to doctors/dentists, taking meds, nor getting surgery” that “fended off diseases.” Neither was there any “improvement in diet or lifestyle!” When one has “personally experienced” the Power of God, it increases one’s faith!

      I’m sorry to hear of your aunt, but did you not say that “she survived for almost 21 years…?” Why do you “always” look at the negative and not the positive? Who allowed this? Who allowed her to have “faith” in doctors and “a strict, healthy diet?” No matter how many “people prayed for her…” we don’t know where her “heart” was, only GOD! From your statements, she had more “faith” in doctors, taking meds, and surgery” rather than GOD. Who are we to say, for He looks at one’s “heart” not as we do!

      The “block” you have established which does not ALLOW God to perform is your “common sense, logic, reasoning, and intellect (Proverbs 3:5)! Yes, “Close your mind and eyes to reality so you can have faith in God and the Bible! Insane? (I Corinthians 4:10) Do you want to remain the same, miserable? You’ve tried “your way,” why not His way?

      God is not the hypocrite, you are! You believe there is a God (however awful) but not in what He has said? Is this not a hypocrite? How do you expect Him to reveal His Powers if you continue this hypocritical attitude? Either there is a God (believing His Words) or there is not!

      Concerning Adam and Eve, if you were the creator of a robot, had programmed him to obey your commands, but he decided to use “his mind” whenever he wanted (“free will”) to do as he pleased, what would you do? Since he now has “a mind” (free will) there would be nothing you could do but either destroy him (which is precious in your sight as we are in God’s sight) or punish him time and time again for using “his mind” (free will)! So it is with God! He allows us “free will” which we have used time and time again causing destruction then blame the Creator? He has given us instructions (the Bible) of what to do in “every” situation in life (“strong sex drive, violence, aggressiveness, territorial, jealousy, selfishness” etc). It is He (The Creator) who has designed us, given us instructions, but use of our “free will” (our minds) has caused destruction and we blame Him? Now that's insane! Would your robot blame you for “their decisions” as you do God? We are “the jackasses and the jerkasses” when we don’t follow instructions (The Bible)!

      If you would read the Bible, you will see why he made children with bone cancer (John 9:2). Again, if creator of the robot would you not want his “offspring” to worship you as creator?

      I’m sorry! I disagree! He is not the “Bungle” - we are! We have gotten so smart (our minds) that we choose to do as we please (free will) not giving due respect to the Creator but rather utilizing our “free will” and consequently suffer!

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      Norine this is getting tiring. My aunt was a strong Christian and yet she suffered and died anyway from cancer. My mother also had strong Christian faith but she suffered from migraine headaches and from two strokes, the second one which killed her. This is inexecusable for a God to allow. The sadness, hurt, and anger I feel are beyond words to describe.

      Once again you defend and make execuses for this pitiful execuse for a God by mentioning the value of free will so we arent robots. Ahem. For the one thousandth time we DONT have total free will. I've said this so many times Im TIRED of writing it and explaining it. Read my earlier posts in case you have forgotten. Secondly look at the horrific amount of evil in the world throughout history. Does free will justify crashing planes in the Twin Towers and killing nearly 3000 people? Think. And there are a billion other lesser evils which humans have inflicted in the name of free will. The world is a hellhole and horror movie because of free will. Does free will justify sending billions of people to hell to be tortured forever? And what about Natural evils such as jellyfish, ebola, cancer, hurricanes, and tsunamis? Whose free will is to blame for these Natural evils? Satan's?

      How am I a hypocrite? You're wrong. The hypocrite and the biggest hypocrite is God who cant even keep His own commandment, thou shalt not kill. Tooth decay, blindness, mental retardation, diseases, venomous pests, overpopulation, mass starvation, execrement, hurricanes, tsunamis, intense cold, intense heat, floods, droughts, and predation and killing are all examples of a bungling creator. On a mental level, on a philosophical level, on a creative level, and on a moral level its a BUNGLE. I dont know which is the bigger screwup, Nature or Humanity.

      The Bible, aside from being vague, ambiguous, unclear, and full of contradictions(up to 143 contradictions) also has errors in it. Im tired now.

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      Kiss andTales 20 months ago

      Just because something is unexplainable to humans , does not mean it is from God Almighty hand.

      Moses experience proves this , the 10 plagues of Egypt. Remember that the magic practicing priest could conjure up

      frogs, snakes , to compete and other things as, well, but what they could not copy was

      raising a person from the dead, what they could not stop was the hand of the God when he open the red sea.

      logic is this if you have children you love with your whole heart , and both have colds

      would you feed one Medicine and not give the other the same when it is severe,

      the point is when Jesus was on earth he healed and cast demons from many causing sicknesses, he did on a grand scale , soon in his office position all will benifit global and as written no one will say I am sick. NO ONE ! self explained

      Isa 33:24 And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error.

      Global healing not one person or two.

      that is the difference your experience questionable under another spirit .

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      Since the 1990s, I have pondered deeply and speculated about the origin of evil in the world and universe, whether its Natural evil or Moral evil. Natural evil are things such as jellyfish, tapeworms, cancer, tooth decay, hurricanes, tsunamis. Natural evil is more or less impersonal, more or less indiscriminate, more or less blind, and amoral. Be that as it may, its still a formidable threat to my Christian faith and probably an insurmountable mystery. Natural evil just might be able to totally destroy Traditional Theism and result in a weaker form of Theism,such as Process Theology, Deism, Dystheism, or Dualism. An insane, cruel,stupid God would explain ALOT about why the world is the miserable hellhole and horror movie that it is. Moral evil is the evil done by rational, intelligent beings, such as humans, angels, demons, the Devil, fairies, and aliens. I dont know which category aliens belong to. They seem to have Natural, Human, and Supernatural qualities. Lying, stealing, violence, rape, killing, polluting, torturing, and selfishness are all forms of Moral evil. Supernatural evil is the evil done by non-human entities, whether its God, the Devil, demons, Satan, or fairies.

      In the Dualistic religion of Zoroastrianism, all evil, whether its Natural evil or Moral evil, comes from the Devil, Angra-mainyu/Ahriman. This cruel sadistic fiend created diseases, intense cold, intense heat, snakes, scorpions, mosquitoes, and death. The ancient Hebrewswho wrote the Bible believed that Natural evil and Natural good were all created by God, Yahweh. Just read Isahaia chapter 45, verse 7 in the King James Bible, where God says "I make peace and create evil." Sounds like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, doesnt it? Well, as for this Angra-mainyu/Ahriman character, he is all Hyde and pure 100 percent evil. Angra-mainyu/Ahriman is a cruel sadistic malevolent prick who enjoys causing suffering. Angra-mainyu/Ahriman is a lowlife degenerate dirtbag. Supernatural scumbag and piece of shit describes this monstrous fiend. Angra-mainyu/Ahriman is just one version of the Devil. Which fiend came first or was invented first, Angra-mainyu/Ahriman or Satan? We dont really know because there are conflicting dates given for both. Another contradiction is this that Angra-mainyu/Ahriman the Devil and his demons are unable to create anything. The same contradiction is said about Satan and his demons. On the one hand, its claimed Satan the Devil and his demons are able to create Natural evils such as centipedes, diseases, hurricanes, and tsunamis, and other people claim that Satan and his demons are unable to create anything.

      Another school of thought is that the Devil, whether its Satan or whatever else you want to call him, and his demons are unable to create anything but they do have the power to change and corrupt things which ALREADY EXIST. For example, centipedes and mosquitoes were originally harmless herbivores until the Devil and his cohorts changed and corrupted them into the harmful, dangerous pests that they are. In other words, the Devil and his henchmen changed, corrupted, and ruined the entire Natural world and corrupted human nature as well. So in this scenario, its not God's fault but the fault of the Devil and demons why Natural evil and Human evil exists and abounds. That still leaves some disturbing unanswered questions. Why has God allowed these evil beings to tamper with, corrupt, screw, torment, and ruin His creation? Isnt God supposed to be stronger and smarter than the Devil and his minions? Something is not right with this picture Christians.

      The Devil,whether real or fiction, whether one being or multiple beings, whether the cause and creator of evil or not, is known by multiple names. Marduk, Ea, Enki, Set, Ra, Ptah, Horus, Kukulkan, Shiva, Kali,Poseidon, Zeus, Mastema, Baphomet, Beelzebub, Angra-mainyu/Ahriman, Dionysus, Saturn, Lucifer, Satan. In Oklahama they have made a statue of Baphomet who has a human body with the head of a goat.

      Demons are non-human entities who are either purely evil, or who are both good and evil. Hmmmm. Satan is said to be either purely evil, or both good and evil, or good, or neither good nor evil, depending on who you ask. Just as we dont really know what God and angels are like, we also dont really know what the Devil and demons are like. Just as Christians disagree about Satan, so too different Satanists also disagree with eachother about what Satan is like. Let me go on to another blog.

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      Other names for the Devil are Malek-Taus, Baal, Moloch, etc. Anton Lavey's version of Satan isnt purely evil and neither is it good. Lavey's Satan resembles Lavey himself, selfish, lustful greedy, hedonistic. Lavey's Satan resembles a sleazy man who hangs out in sleazy casinos full of alcohol, loose women, and gambling.

      Another brand of Satanists identify Enki as the true version of Satan. Enki is an Anunnaki alien who supposedly came to earth 450,000 years ago and created modern humans by mixing his genes with that of a hominid. Enki/Satan is supposedly good and not evil according to his worshippers. So what's this? Satan is really an ET alien? Satan is made out of flesh and blood? I thought Satan was made out of spirit. Believers of Enki-Satan claim he has a flesh and blood body and they claim to have seen him and conversed with him. These worshippers of Enki/Satan claim he looks totally human or looks like a handsome blonde Swedish man! They claim that Enki/Satan is good and not evil but he is an enemy of Christianity. I dont know what to make of this bizarre belief. Fundie Christians claim that aliens, ETs, UFOs, are really demons in disguise under Satan's rule whose goals are to deceive people, and Im afraid they might be right in this case.

      I'll list some books and movies for the interested reader here. The book, "The Devil-perceptions of evil from antiquity to primitive Christianity," by author Jeffrey Burton Russell, and the novel "Legion," by author William Peter Blatty. Blatty wrote the novel The Exorcist on which the movie was made. Of the five movies in The Exorcist saga, there are two sequels and two prequels of the original 1973 movie. Exorcist 3-Legion is the one movie that asks the hard questions such as, would an all good God create death? And would an all good God allow cancer, serial killers, and decapitations? Watch this movie and read the novel Legion on which its based.

      Other books and movies are The Rite, and Hostage to the Devil by author Malachi Martin. Authors Lorraine and Ed Warren are demonolgists who claim that they conversed with a demon who called itself Resililobus. This demon described itself as resembling a hideous monster with a tail and claws. Using ouija boards is said to be dangerous and is a doorway to demonic beings. Thats how the possessed girl in The Exorcist ended up a victim. The wind demon, Pazuzu, and a demon calling itself ZOZO is said to appear to people using an ouija board. See or google ZOZO the demon on the Internet. Its a very nasty demon. Its wise to keep away from ouija boards.

      In 1974, a U.S. Italian/American movie called Beyond the Door was made in San Francisco and Rome. Juliet Mills, Richard Johnson, and Gabriele Lavia are the actors. As a result of conducting a Satanic ritual in the dark filled with numerous candles and a naked woman, Juliet Mills becomes demonically possessed. She levitates, she curses and spits, and uses telekinesis to throw her husband around the room. In another scene,her two children are terrorized alone in the room when the dolls and toys come to life and move by themselves as a monstrous voice laughs. Its implied that demons are doing this. Richard Johnson comes along and delivers the baby from pregnant Juliet Mills(he's a Satanist who is suspended in time and trying to avoid death because he knows he is headed to hell) and then plunges his car down a cliff into San Francisco Bay. The family is later shown on a ferry and the last scene shows the little boy's eyes start to glow, implying that he is the next vessel for the Devil, with the horror starting anew. There is a sense of utter helplessness and vulnerability in this movie. God is weak or absent in this movie as in real life, and Satan and demons are shown to dominate and win. Beyond the Door illustrates that the Devil and demons are real and that us humans are utterly helpless and powerless against these evil beings.

      With the horrific amount of evil in the world, theres got to be an invisible, supernatural bastard behind it. How else to explain such a screwed up, hellhole for a world, and how else to explain its Satanic nature? The Devil rules this scuzpit for a world and not a loving God.

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      Yes, to GOD (the Creator), we are (or should be) His robots! This is what He desires "To love the Lord thy God with ALL your heart, soul and strength" [paraphrasing] (Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; Deut 6:5)!

      The creator of the "robot" (if he continues not to listen and gets completely out of hand) will be destroyed by the creator as it is with God!

      Whether we like it or not, God created us to worship and praise Him and to acknowledge that HE IS GOD, not we ourselves (no matter WHAT we think of Him)!

      No matter what you said regarding your aunt and mom "having strong faith," only GOD knew their "hearts!" We can't go by what people say or do for GOD doesn't "look" as man does, but rather He looks at the "heart!" Consequently, I hear you "talking," but I know that "deep" down inside, you realize there is a GOD but your "flesh" is heartbroken by what you "feel" God has done to "you" personally! Do you not know that you are not the only one who is without mother, father, aunt, sisters, brothers, etc? I have no one but Jesus also! However, when I said this to myself once, Jesus spoke to me and said, "What or Who else do you need?" "I AM" EVERYTHING!

      Time does not permit me to expound on everything you have addressed, but I'm praying!

      Take Care,

      Love, Norine

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      What are you saying Norine? That my aunt and my mother werent really Christians at heart? So this makes it alright for God to allow them to suffer and die? WHAT? So only real Christians or religious fanatics are entitled to good health and happiness and everybody else deserves to suffer and die? Get real. So if a person isnt a strong Christian, then its ok for them to suffer and die and its ok for them to end up in hell? Is this what you're saying? Thats absolutely disgusting. You offended me and angered me. So going by your way of thinking, Norine, a morally good, kind person like Gandhi deserves to suffer and die and deserves to go to hell because he wasnt a Christian, whereas a degenerate criminal like Jeffrey Dahmer who killed animals and who raped, killed, and cannibalized young men is able to go to heaven because he became Christian before he died. So Gandhi who never hurt anyone or anything has to go to hell and Dahmer who killed both animals and people gets to go to heaven. This is not justice. Its a travesty of justice.

      My mother is the most important person in the world to me. She's not just any mother, and Im not just any other guy who lost his mother. We both loved eachother. My mother was my only human friend. I should point out here that Im not a people person and I generally dont like and dont get along with other people. A physically ugly, mentally ill guy just isnt going to be treated kindly by 95 percent of the people around him. My mother was the only person I truly love and care for, and the only person I need, as is my father. My parents are the most important people in the world to me, and watching them suffer and die and having them snatched away from me is cruel beyond imagining. A God who allows this is cruel, immoral, amoral, heartless, insane, stupid.

      This God is a selfish, egomaniacal, narcisstic prick who doesnt care about anything else except His ego and for us to worship Him. He's UNFIT to worship. A cruel, irresponsible, negligent, stupid, unreasoning God does not deserve my love. Its a pitiful, disgusting, disgraceful execuse for a God.

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      Did I say that I thought your mom did not have "strong faith?" Again, I say we don't know because we cannot look at one's heart as GOD does and because of that ONLY HE knows! The stronger the faith, the more blessings one receives and you said she lived for 21 years with cancer so therefore, from what you are saying, her faith must have been pretty strong! Why do you think your relatives are immortal? We all die! Your parents and mine as well. Death is inevitable! That doesn't give me the right to "blame God!" The Creator (GOD) made us, we fell (Adam & Eve) and must suffer consequences (death) if not obedient as would your "robot" if it became "self willed!" I guess your robot would say "This is not justice because it is not what "I want" my creator is "cruel,

      As I continue to say "GOD looks at the heart" so why do you continuously refer to yourself as "A physically ugly, mentally ill guy?" Have you heard of the phrase "You can't judge a book by looking at the cover?" Well, that's precisely how God looks at one! The inside - not the outside! That's what's wrong with the world today, they continuously judge another by "appearance" which is usually a facade! Now what would you rather have, the real thing or someone putting up a facade? I think you're blessed in that when you do find it in yourself to get involved socially, you will not have to worry that one says she loves you and it's only for your looks for we all eventually get OLD and UGLY! So what? Our mothers (and fathers if lucky) are always the only really friends we have and when we loose them, we are devastated as I was! At least we continue to maintain a sound mind (with the exception of your attitude toward God who is our only true friend now)! If you continue to maintain your attitude toward GOD, you will continue to be miserable! As Henry Ford once said, "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got." It's time you STOP all of this self-pity and change your "stinking thinking" to enjoy what GOD has in store for you so that you can truly enjoy life before you leave this world!

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      You're confused. Its my aunt in California that lived with cancer for almost 21 years or actually almost 22 years between January 1985 to November 2006. My mother suffered from migraine headache from 1986 or 1987 to her death in February 2015. Thats almost 28 or 29 years of immense suffering. Thats inexecusable for a God to allow. And its inexecusable to allow her to suffer from two strokes of which the second one killed her. Her last words on that horrible night in February 2015 were "there's a strong pain on the right side of my head." A God who allows this is unimaginably cruel, heartless, immoral, amoral, insane, mentally blind, morally blind.

      Then you bring up Adam and Eve. How many times elsewhere I have explained that this is unfair, unreasoning, unkind, irresponsible, immoral, insane, stupid, and CRUEL. You Fundies just dont see how unfair, cruel, insane, and stupid this story is, whether its literally true or false. First of all, note in God's initial warning to Adam and Eve He doesnt say anything about sin, diseases, crimes, wars, genocides, starvation, mental illness, centipedes, ticks, mosquitoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, etc. Theres not a word and no indication in God's initial warning that the threat of death would be passed on to ALL future unborn descendants of Adam and Eve. God doesnt bother telling them that the ENTIRE creation was in danger of being corrupted and ruined if they ate the forbidden fruit. The initial warning God made was directed ONLY to Adam and Eve, and not to the entire creation. Are you with me? Only AFTER Adam and Eve sin by eating the forbidden fruit does this unreasoning, insane, spiteful, cruel God decide to curse and punish the ENTIRE creation along with Adam and Eve. He stupidly allows Adam and Eve's sin to spread to all their future unborn descendants which is unfair, insane, immoral, cruel, irresponsible, and stupid. Everyone should be born with a fresh clean slate and not have to be born tainted by the original sin of Adam and Eve. So we all have to be born sinners worthy of hell for something that two ancient humans did and for something that happened dozens, hundreds, or thousands of years BEFORE we were even born. Now its horrible enough that human nature became sinful, evil, corrupt. Humans have turned the world into a hellhole. We are our own punishmen, we are our own hell. Unfortunately the cruelty and injustice doesnt stop there because this cruel, insane, unreasoning, unforgiving God decides to further punish His creation with Natural evils such as disease, centipedes, painful childbirth, hurricanes, tsunamis,etc, and now animals also have to suffer and die along with sinful humans. This is cruelty on top of cruelty, insanity on top of insanity, stupidity on top of stupidity, travesty on top of travesty.

      This experiment with free will and Adam and Eve was a ticking time bomb to disaster and tragedy. A loving, merciful, rational, sane God would not do this. What kind of idiot trashes and ruins the ENTIRE creation for the sin of two people? Does this make sense? A clam has more sense and has more compassion than this God. The entire creation was set up to be screwed and ruined by this experiment with free will and Adam and Eve. Its a TRAVESTY. No common sense and no reasoning describes this God. And this God refuses to forgive Adam and Eve and went right ahead with punishing the ENTIRE world along with Adam and Eve. Its absolutely disgusting and despicable what this God has done and what He allows. This God RUINED HIS ENTIRE CREATION FOR THE SIN OF 2 PEOPLE. Its beyond insane, its beyond stupid. We're stuck with a God who has shown more cruelty and who has caused, who has created, and who has allowed more suffering to His creation all because 2 ancient humans ate a forbidden fruit which He orchestrated for them to eat. With a God like this, who needs enemies? Unfit to worship.

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      As the robot you created displayed "a mind of his own" which "ruined everything for future creations," would say? You are the creator of the robot, not the robot! You program and set rules for the robot! Whether or not the robot "thinks" you are unjust doesn't matter, for you are the creator! So it is with God! Did you tell your creation that you would continuously re-program, punish, destroy upon creation? "After" the robot disobeyed, rules (re-programming), consequences (up to and including destruction) were established. The establishment of rules for "punishment" is up to you for you are the creator. So it is with God!

      You are what you are - a creation! God is what He is - GOD (The Creator)! Who are we (robots) to question GOD? Until you accept the fact that you are not GOD and do according to II Chronicles 7:14 (Humble yourself), you will continue as Henry Ford stated "the same!"

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      Wow thats great "logic" Norine. So the creation has no right to question the creator? A flawed creation implies a flawed creator. Its the creator's own stupid fault for conducting this immoral, insane, destructive, and cruel experiment with free will, Satan, and Adam and Eve, which was a recipe for disaster and tragedy. Why ruin human nature and why ruin Nature? Why ruin your ENTIRE creation in this manner? The creator is ultimately to blame for all the evils, sins, defects, flaws in HIS creation. And He has no solution to offer us and allows us to remain in our sins, defects, and failures, and allows us to suffer and die by one horrible means or another, and allows Satan and demons to corrupt, torment, and ruin His creation, and allows mass division and mass confusion over religion. This is not love and this is not mercifulness. Human nature isnt going to heal by itself and Nature's cruelties and defects isnt going to heal by itself. God has to heal it. He has failed to heal, and continues to fail, and this is a victory for the Devil. Its too bad you Fundies cant see this.

      The God we worship is a failure, deadbeat, and absentee landlord. He doesnt know how to be a good, caring God. Its embarrassing.

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      Did I not say that you (the creator of the robot) did not initially program the robot to have "a mind of it's own," (free will) but it acquired it? We also were not "originally created" to have a mind of our own but acquired it exercising our "free will" (sin)! Were you a "flawed creator" when designing? Did you not create the robot to follow your commands? When it didn't, were there not consequences? So it is with God! Did you "ruin" robot (and his future "offspring") by re-programming which made all future designs "suffer" for "free will" of first robot? So it is with God!

      Moral, the "first thing" one must do is "accept the fact" that "WE ARE NOT GOD" and there's nothing we can do about it! (II Chronicles 7:14) It is what it is! You were born male and not female and there's nothing you can do about it. You were born of your nationality and there's nothing you can do about it. You were born in whatever status you are in and there's nothing you can do about it. He is the Creator and you are the creation and there's nothing you can do about it. Again, it is what it is!

      Luke 1:37 says "For with God nothing shall be impossible" which means God can do anything, but fail! It is the individual that limits His Power by "not believing" or "having faith" in His Word! The "mass confusion over religion" is because of "limitations" placed on His "rightly divided" Word through "tradition or preconceived ideas" rather than allowing the Holy Spirit "lead and guide" them when studying His Word!

      You said "Human nature isnt going to heal by itself and Nature's cruelties and defects isnt going to heal by itself. God has to heal it. He has failed to heal, and continues to fail, and this is a victory for the Devil. Its too bad you Fundies cant see this." You're right - "God has to heal it." He has not failed to heal nor continues to fail but we have failed to study, believe and have faith in what He has said which limits revelation of His Power in our lives and ultimately causes positive actions in our lives! Therein lies the problem! Unbelief! Unbelief will continue to cause one to "remain as is!"

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      I would never allow my creation to become this evil and sinful if I were the creator. And I certainly would NEVER create such horrible garbage such as disease, centipedes, jellyfish, widow spiders, hurricanes, tsunamis. If I knew that my creation would turn out this evil then I would just refrain from creating. And I certainly would not allow a Devil or Satan or an archfiend to tamper with, to screw, ruin, and torment the creation. If I were a creator the world would be a paradise instead of the hellhole that it is.

      This creator God we worship has no moral obligation to His creation. He doesnt know how to be kind, doesnt know how to be caring and nurturing, and doesnt know how to be merciful, humane, and responsible. He is CLUELESS. He cannot manage His creation in a merciful, humane manner, and He cannot manage His creation in an intelligent, constructive manner. Violence, cruelty, torture, sin, stupidity, insanity, irresponsibleness, carelessness, negligence, incompetence, and destructiveness are His ways. He knows no better. Theres a serious deficiency in this creator God in case you havent noticed. This God can only create through rampant evil, sin, suffering, and death. We worship a deficient God.

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      Accept it! You are "the creation," not the Creator! Until you do (II Chronicles 7:14), you will continue as Henry Ford says "Remain the same!"

      God has "compassion" on His stupid creations! He "allows" them to continue (as you) in the ways "they feel" is right (as He does you)! Are you not still alive? Have you not been given chance and chance again to "acknowledge Him as God" with me being "put in your life" to remind you? When he did, did you listen? LISTEN! It is what it is! GOD is GOD and "you" are ONLY "the creation" which He "allows" free will and "look" what you're doing with it! He loves you so much He has placed someone in your life to remind you! But "look" what you're doing! He can only do what "you allow" Him to do by "believing and having faith" in what He has said in His Word!

      Since you love your creation (the robot) so much, rather than "destroy him," you allow him to continue with "a mind of his own," (although constantly reprogramming as you are being reprogrammed by people being placed in your life to remind you), but as you, the robot continues. "Final judgment" of the robot has been established - Hell or eternal damnation, yet he has the opportunity to "get it right" and "obey" before destruction, as do you!

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      Henry Ford is a poor moral example. As the inventor of the car and gasoline engine, do you realize the harm motor vehicles have caused? Bloody disgraceful deploraboe carnage on roads and highways, and serious pollution and increased cancer rates and time wasted sstting in traffic. Thats not something to be proud of.

      Accept it? I cannot accept what is morally unacceptable. Being the creator doesnt give one the right to torture his creations, and doesnt give him the right to be negligent and irresponsible. If He created us flawed or allowed us to acquire being sinful and flawed, then the creator is at least partly to blame for the sins and flaws of HIS creation. Hes horrible as a creator and He's horrible as a God.

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      I did not quote "the inventor of the car" to approve of his invention, but his saying - "You will remain the same if you continue to do what you've always done!"

      "...what is morally unacceptable" is the creation's (your) opinion! Does it matter? Is not your "opinion" irrelevant? It is what it is!

      Are you not the creator of the "robot?" Does it not "give you the right" to do anything to him you please? Whether it is the robot's opinion of you is that you are "morally unacceptable," negligent and irresponsible, "flawed," "to blame for the consequences causes by "his actions" is irrelevant! Who cares? You are the creator of the robot! He follows your command or else - "consequences!" So it is with GOD!

      Yes, your creation (as you) can "say" "He's horrible as a creator and (or) He's a horrible God," but does it change the fact that "YOU" are the creator? You can "say" these things of God also ("free will"), but does it change the fact that HE IS GOD? So it is with GOD!

      It is what it is! What can we do but "use our reasoning and logic" ("free will") which moves us farther from GOD?

      Something told me to give you these Scriptures: I Corinthians 2:12-16 (v12) "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is of God (Holy Spirit); that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (v13) Which things we also speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (v14) But the CARNAL MAN receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are FOOLISHNESS unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (v15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself (because He gives God's Word - Scripture) is judged of no man. (v16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the "mind of Christ!" Also, I Corinthians 3:18- 23 which says (v18) "Let no man deceive himself, If ANY MAN among you seemeth to be WISE in this age, let him BECOME A FOOL, that he MAY BE WISE. (v19) For THE WISDOM OF THIS WORLD is FOOLISHNESS WITH GOD. For it is written, HE TAKETH THE WISE IN THEIR OWN CRAFTINESS. (V20) And again, The Lord KNOWETH THE THOUGHTS OF THE WISE, "THAT THEY ARE VAIN." (v21) Therefore, let no man glory in men. For all things are yours, (v22) Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; ALL ARE YOURS; (v23) And ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's!"

      So, "your opinion" is irrelevant! What you have "studied" from "man's world" and what "you believe" God is through all of those negative statements, doesn't matter and are "FOOLISHNESS TO GOD!" Yet, He continues to "allow you" "free will" but is asking you to "Choose you this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:14-15)! Either you love the one or hate the other! Your choice! Your "free will!" But remember the consequences - "Eternal damnation!"

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      You know what? Please stop. You're angering and offending me. Its disgusting what you Fundies say and think. So my opinion is irrelevant? Is that right? And the creator has the right to do anything with His creation and to be as cruel and as negligent and as irresponsible as He wants? Absolutely DISGUSTING. Then you have the nerve to tell me if I dont change my ways Im headed to hell. Thats BEYOND DISGUSTING. Have you heard the saying, "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man?" You worship a cruel, horrible, insane, stupid, unreasoning, negligent, incompetent God. Disgusting.

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      Yet, He is still GOD and there's nothing we can do about it but allow Him into our lives and worship Him which was His intent for our creation! As you are the creator of the robot, when he continues to display his "free will" and possibly overtake you, what other alternative do you have but destruction? How insane is that? But God have mercy on those who repent and follow Him!

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      Moral Man 20 months ago

      What possible alternative does the creator have when His creation rebels against Him except destruction? I have an alternative. How about not creating at all. Refrain from creating. Dont create it. Dont do it in the first place if your creation is going to disappoint you and if you as the creator has to end up punishing it. If the creation is going to come out evil and flawed and result in a hell on earth and result in a vastly worse hell lasting forever for billions of people in the next life, then DONT CREATE IT. DONT DO IT. Thats just common sense which this God does not have. If the creation is going to be ruined, trashed, and neglected as this world plainly is, then the creator should not have created such a world in the first place.

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      MM: But He did create us! It is what it is! What can we do but talk "foolishness" in the sight of God or do what we were created for? Praise Him!

      You fail to realize that He created the creation and the creation didn't obey (which He knew would happen) but were "allowed free will" to choose alternative which they did! Therefore, repercussions!

      Again, your creation decides to disobey you, what then? Repercussions! So what's "insane" about that?

      God's creation is not "going to be ruined, trashed, and neglected as this world plainly is..." We have a choice! Unfortunately, we have chosen "sin" causing repercussions in this life and the world to come!

      We are not "evil and flawed" if in Christ Jesus but it's a choice (free will)! Is there joy, peace and happiness where you are? You can't serve two masters (Joshua)! Change the world! Be a part of "righteousness" and help "eliminate some evil" in the world if you're so tired of it!

      Show the world "you're tired!"

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      Norine Williams 20 months ago

      MM: When "you're sick and tired of being sick and tired," email me at norinewilliams4035@att.net and we can talk about JESUS!

    • OutWest profile image

      OutWest 11 months ago

      your whole argument is made up. Even the bible states:

      Isaiah 45:7New International Version (NIV)

      7 I form the light and create darkness,

      I bring prosperity and create disaster;

      I, the Lord, do all these things.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 11 months ago

      West are you referring to me? If you are it doesn't seem you actually read the hub, let alone the question and responses it was based off of.

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