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Hypocrisy of Hubbers. An Atheist's Dilemma: Part One

Updated on May 1, 2015
You can't say no to that...
You can't say no to that... | Source

I Was Asked To...

I seem to be getting so many requests from people during discussions to write more hubs. Pushing aside the fact that those requests are veiled attacks on my character, you know because somehow the lack of hubs on one's profile somehow makes whatever you say irrelevant, I figured why not?

The point of this/these hub(s) is to show how blatantly hypocritical people can be during my discussions with them. Most likely it will also show how often they lie, insult me (directly or indirectly), completely ignore what I ask them, delete what I have to say for no reason and then lie about what I said, and deflect whatever the topic is into oblivion. It happens more often than you would have thought probable.

The way I am going to go about this is to copy and paste comments made between myself and the person in question. I will probably end up summarizing some of the beginning comments, mainly because they aren't as important as others and it would take to long to quote them verbatim.

I am not sure what the rules are regarding calling people out on their BS using their hubber names directly so I wont bother. I will also limit each hub to just one person. If you are concerned about the legitimacy of these comments, whether they exist at all or if I have taken them out of context, do let me know. I took screen shots of any pasted comments you will see here and would be more than happy to share the dropbox link I have for them.

Request accepted.
Request accepted. | Source

So I Figured I Would Deliver.

I guess the best place to start would be with the more recent hubber I have been...discussing things with. If you could call it that anyway. Here we go.

Hubber X put up a hub complaining that some atheists are cowards because they only attack Christianity. His reasoning for this is that Christianity is somehow an easier target to attack versus something like say Islam due to fear of being branded an Islamaphobe, or whatever name fits the religion in question. You would think that would also apply to Christianity but I digress...

Anyway, that is pretty much the meat of Hubber X's hub. He is complaining that atheists follow a double standard by not attacking other religions, which could be considered a valid point if Hubber X didn't live in the US and if most of the atheists he sees attacking Christianity didn't also live in the US or a Christian dominated part of the world.

The latter part of my response to the hub: “Your profile says you live in NY, which obviously is in the US. Are you willing to bet that the majority of these “cowardly” atheists you see here [on Hub Pages] also live in the US, or a part of the world where Christianity is dominant and probably affects/has affected them in their daily lives?”.

The point I was trying to make with that comment is that it is much easier to worry about the fire in your backyard than it is to worry about the fire 5 states away. Christianity has a lot more influence in the US than any other religion, so unless those other religions suddenly put their big boy pants on and start causing problems, of course Christianity is going to be directly in the line of fire most of the time. His response to that comment is that Christianity is being attacked on all sides in the US, hence his hub.

Before I get into my follow up response to that, I want to post this comment made by Hubber X to another hubber (Hubber Y) that he seems to dislike. Hubber Y made a similar point to mine in addition to other good ones in one very long comment. Here is Hubber X's response to said comment: “I suggest that you work on being more concise in your writing. Because your “essays” are so long and drawn out, the average reader gets tired of reading them about halfway through”.

With that said, the last part of the upcoming comment of mine should make some sense: “As for Christianity being “attacked”, in the US of all places, its borderline absurd. It might be better for you to provide some sources for that for some clarity. Its dishonest of you to complain a comment was “too long” to read and that its somehow not worth addressing at all because of that. Plenty of good points were made, all in response to specific points you yourself made, but the way you just brushed them off makes you look scared to address them”.

Now here is where things get fun...

Hubber X's direct response to that: “Link, I have done things in life that you probably will never do, and that you probably are not even capable of doing. So, get the hell out of here with your silly little attempts to “set me straight”. Furthermore, you don't have enough horsepower to roll with me, so steer your way back into the slow lane”.

That kind of came out of the blue didn't it? I challenge something he said, and rather than provide the sources like I asked and shut me up, he pretty much tells me to screw off. I should also mention that it seems to be a popular theme that other people bring up their age/life experience in an attempt to somehow invalidate whatever it is I am saying. Oddly enough its directly after something like the above happens where I ask them to prove their point and they don't (can't?) do it. Its always easier to bring up random stuff than to answer honestly isn't it? Also, keep the above response in mind for later, it ends up playing an ironic role.

At this point you could say the gloves are off. I try to be as passive as I can be when dealing with new people in order to grasp their perspective on things since I generally don't like assuming everyone of faith acts in the same way, because they don't. But when something this blatantly asinine happens the sarcastic side of me loves to cause havoc. My direct response to Hubber X's comment: “Mmm yes, I guess an attempt at conversation and an inquiry into your perspective on things would be viewed as silly. How thoughtless of me. So to recap: You wont address any counter points made by myself or -Hubber Y-, all of which deal with points made in your hub. Interesting. You reject an opportunity to back yourself up and enlighten me to the woes of Christianity in the US. Expected. After rejecting said request, you pull the age card that somehow automatically makes whatever I said inferior, conveniently sidestepping the fact that our ages and life experience have f*ck all to do with the topic at hand. Bravo. When you decided on the name of this hub, particularly the “coward” part, you weren't looking in the mirror by any chance were you?”.

Its baffling how someone can write an article on something on a public website, allow comments to be posted by random people, and yet they can't take any form of criticism in the slightest without being a sore loser about it. Seriously its pathetic, even more so when I sit there and give them opportunities to prove their point and shut me up.

Hubber X's response to my comment: “Link, this is not some little college style debate society. Therefore, I am not going to get into an adolescent exchange with you and -Hubber Y-. I have more important things to do, like planning my next hub which brings something to mind: Instead of devoting so much of your time challenging me, you should be spending your time writing some hubs.”.

There it is ladies and gents, the age card again AND the veiled attack I mentioned earlier. Apparently making 3 comments over a 6 hour time span is somehow devoting an enormous amount of time and effort on my part to challenge Hubber X. Makes total sense.

At this point I am just having fun. Here is my response to Hubber X's comment: “Boy oh boy I love it when completely random stuff that has no bearing on the topic at hand, aside from a pathetic attempt to pretend you aren't talking completely out of your a$$, gets brought up. You said you had candy to share, I asked to see it, you told me to screw off, I call you on it, and now suddenly your candy can't be shared with anyone. You sound like an angry gradeschooler. Sorry to have upset you, I'll go buy my own instead”.

He responded to that by telling me I should tone it down since apparently he was notified the moderators were keeping an eye on me. I didn't actually censor my language on his hub so I will assume that was what flagged them, provided it was true at all. That was it. Nothing else. He's a pro at ignoring stuff isn't he?

Remember that quote I said to keep in mind earlier? The one where he initially pulled the age card in an attempt to make me seem inferior and all? This was Hubber X's response to another hubber who said we all need the blessing of god: “Yes, God bless us all because we really do need His blessings. Every one of us is nothing but a lowly, wretched sinner. No one in this realm is “better” than anyone else”.

You caught that right? Not the part where he believes we all suck and need to be forgiven for shit we didn't do no not that part. This part “No one in this realm is “better” than anyone else”. I'm not sure of any other way to take that sentence, so I would assume face value would the best way of interpreting it right?

Hence my response to that: “So...what exactly was the point in you bringing up your vast life experience to me earlier -Hubber X-? Because that's the complete opposite of your quote there considering that was your attempt to show that you were better than me or otherwise too far above me to respond to what I said”.

Now...I would have thought it normal for people who are caught in a boldface, undeniably blatant, bullshit lie to own up to it and at least address it in some way shape or form. Its kind of the proper thing to do in order to avoid losing respect is it not?

I guess Hubber X isn't normal...here is his direct response to that: “Link, you are obsessed with me, aren't you”.

There you have it. The hypocrisy, among other things, of Hubber X. The hypocritical part is that he called some atheists cowards, yet he never addressed any of the valid points I or Hubber Y brought up without deflecting or just outright ignoring us. Personally I view running from criticism and attacking others because you can't back up what you say to be quite cowardly, but that's just me.


Somehow I think that this still wont shut the idiots up who keep telling me to write hubs in order to have the "honor" to point out their bullshit.

Time To Vote!

Is Hubber X The Coward He Claims Others Are?

See results

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    • feenix profile image

      feenix 2 years ago

      link, you are a terrific writer.

      Additionally, this hub is well written and you did a great job of presenting your points of view.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Oh Link, you spelled dilemma wrong. Please fix.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      That i did star, that i did. Odd how spellcheck didn't catch that.

      So glad that was the only thing about the hub you took the time to mention. Minor spelling errors tend to be a little embarrassing if im using something other than my phone.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Link, it was good, and you made your points clearly.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Hi Link, I won't discuss with you about who is right and who is wrong. but I have a question to ask, do you attack Christians or Christianity in general? because you didn't deny that, merely justifying why the Christians are the ones who stand most of the time under attack. if I got it wrong or something please tell me. thanks

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      Not sure how that is relevant, but it depends on what your definition of "attack" is.

      Personally i can't even begin to imagine how criticizing someone's logic or asking them to support their claims is considered attacking them, so no by my definition i do not "attack" christians/christianity. I do however criticize christians who represent christianity poorly, and quite often at that.

      But if your definition of "attack" involves simply questioning someone's authority then i suppose i do attack them yes. Of course that would mean i attack anyone i ask a question to, which basically means everyone i have ever come into contact with.

      "What's for dinner?" Turns into "Get bent". Wouldn't make sense to me.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Okay, I take "attack" back, and change it with questioning or criticizing. So after what you said you criticize Christians who represent Christianity poorly. which brings me to another question, as an atheist what do you understand under poorly represented Christianity? thanks for the reply by the way.

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      Because many (if not most) of the atheists I know, myself included were Christians at one point. I even went to college for theology and biblical studies in the hope of being a missionary before losing my faith. So atheists are quite capable of understanding Christianity and how it is practiced and used to justify poor behavior, etc. We can all read the Bible, and many atheists I know are far more familiar with it than many Christians I've met. If your argument is that we can't understand the Bible properly because we don't believe in it, then that would just make god a poor communicator. Christians doubt even agree on interpretations of it or its meaning.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      If you are asking what i mean by christians who represent their religion poorly:

      I am talking about those that claim they love, forgive etc everyone, but the moment you ask them to prove something or address a gap in their logic they shut their eyes, plug their ears, and start insulting people, make baseless assertions, deflect or lie about the topic at hand. Kind of like what Hubber X did in this hub, although the discussion wasn't particularly geared towards his faith, mainly because it never got past my first question.

      If you were asking something else i have no idea what it was Amine.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Hi JMcFarland, you're wrong you didn't understand my question at all. so let me explain it. I know that atheists understand Christianity very well (and many other religions), but they don't recognize it nor accept its teachings and rules. so link said that he criticize Christians who represent Christianity poorly, which means he has a different understanding of Christianity then the ones who represent it "poorly" , and this would mean he agrees with other Christians who represent Christianity in a "well or good" way , so I want to know what he understands under that, and what are the differences he can see between this two different groups.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      No link that was pretty much what I was asking about, thanks for the answer.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      Hi Link. Hubber Y here. Pretty accurate Hub having sort of witnessed it first hand. I think that a lot of people perceive a challenge to an idea or something that somebody says as an attack. In my own personal approach to Christians, or any religion for that matter, I don't bother with them unless I see a Hub that goes after atheists as immoral, or making some absolute claim that can't be demonstrated as true. In my view there are no sacred cows. Religion is just another idea that is fair game as much as any positive methodology designed to tell us how to live. But "going after christians", strikes me as a persecution complex that seems to be left over from the very beginnings of Christianity. It seems that there are those that almost take a perverse pride in being persecuted. After all...Jesus was persecuted as were the Disciples. So they're in good company.

      There's also this; the argument seems to be that atheists are stalking and hunting Christians. Atheists are hardly ever the subject of any rant from any other religious group. It's never from Jews, or Muslims, or Hindus, or buddhists. It's always Evangelical Christians. The Jerry Falwell crowd that blames atheists and Secular Humanists for 9/11 and Katrina. So...if an atheist responds to that kind of attack...he's attacking Christians.

      Atheists are generally really well read with regards to the Bible. The vast majority of them were at one time members of some religion. They aren't blind to the scriptures and many can recite them word for word. And this will cause them to question Christians that don't seem to practice what they preach. And of course, they are vilified for attacking Christians. I can say from my own personal experience that I left the Church after having been confirmed in the 8th grade, because the hypocrisy that I saw even as a kid was too much to deal with.

      What people need to understand is that all ideas are open to criticism. And by criticism I don't mean saying, hey man you suck. I mean a reasoned logical examination of what the person is saying. Critical thinking is what is required to do that, and if the other person responds to a legitimate question that may point out a contradiction, by telling the person that he's stalking him or is obsessed with him...that does nothing to address the contradiction that was pointed out. It's just a defensive tactic to avoid dealing with something that is problematic with the thesis. As a Fallibalist myself, I'm aware that I could be wrong about a ton of things. Why anybody would think that their ideas are somehow infallibly correct knowing that they come from a fallible source is mindboggling to me.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Hello Adagio, I completely agree with you when you said "What people need to understand is that all ideas are open to criticism. And by criticism I don't mean saying, hey man you suck. I mean a reasoned logical examination of what the person is saying" I'm a theist, and I do ask why is this like this and why that is like that, although what I ask about is in general precise questions concerning religious rules and restrictions and why they are so and not different, and I also look for contradiction inside the structure of each religion I study (and I'm still studying) . But sometimes SOME atheist tend to ask questions in a certain manner that could hurt the theist feelings . I won't go far to say they do it on purpose but this happens sometimes, for an example if an atheist compares God (the one a theist loves more than his own self) with a mystic creature like a unicorn, this could result in hurting the theist's feeling regarding his love for God (the most populated beliefs are monotheism beliefs, and this means God is for them unique and omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, and so incomparable), and foremost if the theist has the impression that the atheist are making fun of God, well I'm a theist and I don't like it at all to hear something like that , but I try to be understandable in telling myself maybe this guy just can't put himself in my position and so don't know how much it hurts to hear something like that. I don't mind AT ALL to get questions from atheists about my believe or even God as long as the question was asked in the correct manner and tone, and something else that I hate is when people get aggressive, I mean aren't we all civilized human being who can have an objective and calm discussion, where we all respect each other?????

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      I really sincerely cannot understand how an atheist saying that there's as much evidence for any God as there is for unicorns or aliens or anything else can hurt a believers feelings. Sometimes people do choose to take things personally, but that's not the fault of the person making the statement. I think some people are just bound and determined to find something to be offended by. It bothers me when theists throw out anecdotes and beliefs as facts without any evidence to support them, expecting a skeptic to just take their word for it, but it's hardly offensive. Meanwhile, I see self professed Christians all the time asserting that Islam is devil worship or that Jews are punished for rejecting Jesus or that pagans are evil, atheists are immoral and that Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses are cults. Respect goes both ways. Criticism of a belief or an idea is not criticism of the person who holds it. Beliefs do not have feelings to be hurt, and I fail to see why so many Christians are so offended at criticism or even playful teasing of the tenants of their beliefs, believing that somehow an all powerful, all knowing god somehow needs them to be offended on his behalf, add if he's incapable of doing something about it himself.

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      Let me add to my last comment by saying that the answer I commonly get from believers about why they're offended is because to them, god is Luke a father and they love him and don't want anyone to say negative things about him. I get that, however: if a perfect stranger approached me and told me my father was stupid and I believed that it wasn't true, why would I care about their comment enough to let it bother me? Especially since my father is quite capable of taking care of himself, all the more so if he was everywhere at every time.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Perhaps you wouldn't care because you are not close to your father? I would be a little annoyed, but I get along well with my father and respect him. Maybe you are impervious to harsh criticism, but not all of us are.

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      I'm sorry, but what do you know about My father? Is not a matter of being impervious. It's a matter of developing a thicker skin if you're going to willingly participate and seek out discussions about topics that you feel strongly about that are often contentious. If you're going to just be offended every time someone criticizes your statements or asks for evidence, perhaps they are not conversations on topics that you should actively seek out.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      I think I remember you saying one time that you were estranged from your missionary parents. I am not always offended by what people say about my religion, but I do tend to get protective of God--people get protective of whom they love, it is a natural thing. People will defend what is important to them.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      That's the point, you don't understand how it could hurt my (or any theist who bears enough love toward God) feelings.

      The belief is a personal choice, a choice you make for yourself, so don't be surprised when people get a bit annoyed if you disrespect their God. and yes beliefs don't have feelings but the believers do.

      God does not need us to be offended when someone shows disrespect toward him (in the end he's all powerful and all knowing) because he give the people the choice wither to believe or not, if he would punish and example everyone who dears to disrespect him right away, no one would have a choice but to believe in him. and yes respect goes both ways so if someone disrespect my father I won't like that. so again how you said respect needs to come from both sides, it's not a problem to ask questions regarding the others beliefs and certainly not if you disagree, but this is only so as long as there's respect that comes from both.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Excellent Amine...well said.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      Someone could come up to me in broad daylight and call my mother, aunt, brother, cousin etc etc stupid or insane. Okay. Now it would be a fun sight to see them say that to their face rather than mine.

      Unless the person in question can't defend themselves for some reason or another, it makes absolutely zero sense to get upset for them. The only reason i see making sense is if the things being said are true and you just don't care to admit it.

      It doesn't help the matter either when people don't actually refute the things being said and instead jump straight to crying persecution. That just digs the hole deeper.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Link, like Amine told JMC, you don't understand because you are not a believer. And I doubt you'd take it lightly if I disrespected your mother, not that I ever would.

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      Star, you're taking about my adoptive father. I was not, so that seems a bit presumptuous to me. I love both my adoptive father and my father in law, and if someone wants to try to insult them with something I know or believe to be entirely false, it doesn't offend me. It's assumptive and hilarious. If either of my father's were all knowing and all powerful, they would not need me to be protective of them. They could look out for themselves.

      Amine - I don't think beliefs are a choice. You either believe something or you don't. I cannot, for example, force myself to believe that gravity isn't true and then fly. I cannot simple choose to believe in a god. You cannot, conversely, wake up in the morning and choose to believe in Allah or Thor on a whim. I don't think disagreeing with, challenging or even mocking a being I do not believe in its disrespectful. Good grief, theists do it to atheists, Muslims, pagans, Mormons and even order Christians enough. I do not automatically have respectful deference to Zeus because some people used to believe he was god. I don't have respect for the character of Satan because some people are Satanists. How do you respect something that you don't believe exists?

      the biblical God has no problem punishing entire people's. He drowned everyone in a flood. He ordered the genocide of the caananites, including the animals and unborn children. He tortured and slaughtered the Egyptian firstborn because he hardened pharaohs heart. Those actions are not worthy of redirect, if true. And I disagree. You can know with absolute certainty that God exists and still choose to go against him - unless you totally discount the story of Lucifer. Knowledge does not negate free will.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      Sigh...

      I could have sworn i just said that it wouldn't make sense for me to get upset if someone did. It wasn't just my imagination right?

      Honestly it would be incredibly funny to have someone insult my mother directly to her face. There would be a camera set to record on the sidelines to document the aftermath.

      Also, the fact that you are a believer has nothing to do with it. Just as you hold the concept of your god near and dear to your heart, i could care for something else with equal passion that has absolutely nothing to do with religion/gods.

      This is kind of what i meant when I talked about things getting deflected during discussions...

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      JMcFarland, if you think beliefs aren't a choice how do you think about people who choose to convert in to other religions (they needed the belief because they felt themselves lost without a purpose in life, a purpose that goes beyond death and they saw their original belief irrational or not logical enough or whatever the reason was for them).

      its completely clear that you don't care about God other ways you would be a theist (regardless of the belief you choose), but it's not about respecting God as God (for you) but respecting God as my God, which would make you respecting my belief that I made and so respecting me.

      When you mentioned the biblical God you were talking about the Abrahamic God so yes a theist automatically believes in all those happenings you mentioned, but those didn't happen without the presence of a prophets messengers Jesus and so on...(like Moses mohamed Noah etc....) Now I'll tell you why, it all happened to prove the truth of the prophet or messenger.... 's words, and that he (Jesus or Moses ....) really were sent from God.

      And Link with all do respect but I don't understand how you could find it funny that someone would disrespect the person you should love even if she is able to defend herself

    • feenix profile image

      feenix 2 years ago

      Link, it looks like you're a hit. It's reached the point on this page where it's standing-room-only.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      The reasoning behind it amine is that she would kick the crap out of the person if they were serious. No point for me to get upset for her.

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      Amine - beliefs happen when someone is either taught that they're true, they are supported by evidence or someone is convinced that they're true. They can be convinced for bad reasons or for good reasons - but a belief itself is not evidence that the thing believed in is actually true. Some people still believe that the earth is flat. Could you choose tomorrow to reject your religion and become a Muslim on a whim? No, probably not. But it is possible that at some point you could be convinced (for either bad reasons or good reasons) that Islam is, in fact, true. You don't choose to just believe it. If someone just proclaims a religion because they're afraid or they think that their life lacks purpose without it, that's not faith. That's fear. And any all-knowing god should know the difference between true belief and fear.

      I don't agree that I should respect your beliefs just because you believe them. Beliefs do not have to be respected - some beliefs are absurd (like the belief that the earth is flat). Some beliefs are harmful. If I were to meet someone who believed that giving their child battery acid instead of milk was healthy, I would absolutely NOT have to respect that belief simply because they believe it. Beliefs do not have feelings. I can criticize, challenge and even mock your belief without attacking, persecuting or insulting you. If you choose to take offense to my statements, that is your choice and it is not my responsibility. We cannot choose how other people react to our statements or perceive our attitudes or intentions.

      If a god has to murder, torture and slaughter people in order to prove the validity of their prophet, that god is incompetent. Why on earth would I respect a god that has no option in its infinite wisdom and power than slaughter and bloodshed?

      If you were to tell me that my mother was an ignorant fool, and I know that she's not, why would I give a damn what your opinion of her was? Why would I feel the instinct to correct you? What does your opinion of my mother or me even matter to me or anyone else? I'm not answerable or accountable to a complete stranger, and your opinions of me or my family couldn't matter less. Say whatever you want. If it's not true, it has no impact on my life, my confidence or my knowledge whatsoever.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "But sometimes SOME atheist tend to ask questions in a certain manner that could hurt the theist feelings"

      I think what you're saying here is that atheists need to approach their questions with some degree of political correctness. This kind of presents a problem because it means that all questions must be made with regard to somebody's "feelings". How many other ideas does a person hold that must be approached this way? The theist is invested in his belief, but in fact, it's really just a belief that he holds. It can't be demonstrated as true. That belief may be sacred to him, but that shouldn't be some kind of governor on others that don't share that belief, any more than a cartoonist that draws a cartoon of Mohammed needs to fear for his life because somebody's beliefs were insulted. We see that as an affront to free speech.

      We should never have to censor our speech to accommodate somebody's beliefs. The non-believer is not compelled to cut any slack on his criticism because somebody else's feelings are hurt. That doesn't mean that he NEEDS to be insulting, but in these discussions it usually gets heated and often the atheist may find himself frustrated in getting preached to. It also seems to me that when Conservatives; especially Christian Conservatives which means just about every conservative that calls himself one, suggest that they are all about facts while liberals are all about feelings is another false and ludicrous assumption on their part. Conservatism and religion is wrapped up in feelings and traditional values including traditional and fundamentalist views on religion. Rush Limbaugh once said on his radio show that Republicans are the Party of believers. Glenn Beck once said; "I don't care what you believe in, but you MUST believe in something" . WHY?? I understand that the Republicans are the party of "believers". They let me know that all the time. But what makes Becks statement true? What authority does he have over what I must or must not do?

      Liberals are always referred to as atheist/Commies, and of course anti-American, and it's because we don't share in values that cannot be demonstrated as true. And for the Liberal, truth actually matters and if it's a question of holding on to a belief or accepting the truth about something, then truth wins. I don't think that a conservative or a theist would say that. If it came down to your religion being in direct conflict with what you knew to be true....which would you opt for? Your religion, or the Truth? If you held onto your religion when you knew that it contradicted the truth...then how is that not being hypocritical? You'd be holding onto something that you knew was false, and what kind of religion would that be? On the other hand, if you opted for the truth over your religion, then you'd have to accept the fact that your values can be compromised to accommodate the truth.

      In my view, truth is all that matters and that doesn't always look pretty but in the end it always makes me feel better then holding onto something that I know to be false. I think that the biggest problem that theists have with atheists is having their beliefs challenged and the words can be painful to hear at times. But shouldn't that make your faith even stronger?

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      JMcFarland, I think if a person who was born as a theist can later become an atheist, then this could happen the other way around, so I can convert into another religion if I get convinced either by myself or by another person or by something else. you are right that probably won't happen between day and night, but it may happen at some point. and I think you're a bit over doing it when you compare a religious believe that actually tries to preach peace and harmony with the believe of a crazy guy who thinks that giving his child battery acid instead of milk is healthy, so we are talking about religious believes not about what some crazy guy thinks.

      and if we go to Christianity or Islam there is no part in the bible or in the Quran that forbids one to convert into that religion (either Christianity or islam) because he seeks a purpose in life or he is afraid of God. in fact those two reasons where if I'm not wrong the reasons for most people who converted in the first place. and if one seeks a purpose in life that he can find in religious believes why would he not accept that believe.

      for the second point I guess we'll never agree on that, you need to respect my believe at some point, you don't have to believe in it but you have to respect it at some point and that point is God.

      so I will accept critics but no disrespect, although you were the one who said respect goes both sides so......

      if you know that people won't like it when you dishonor or disrespect their God (or in an atheist's case mother or father), but still dishonor and disrespect Him, then you're responsible for their reactions.

      you have to consider that all and I mean all those who were punished by God deserved it because they were the ones who either murdered people and sometimes prophets or were responsible for corruption and bad, not allowed behavior, and those all were either offending one of his prophets or simply not believing them, so all those who how you said were "murdered by God" deserved punishment, and were in no way innocent.

      so here is another point we won't agree on I would kick the s**t out of anyone who would disrespect my mom alright, even if she can do that why would she I mean to what am I good for if I can't even do that.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      So...someone who doesn't stand up for people who very clearly have the ability to stand up for themselves is somehow a failure of a person?

      If i were to go off of just that, it doesn't sound like you have much respect for yourself amine.

    • feenix profile image

      feenix 2 years ago

      Link, amine is a very good friend of mine. So, I consider an attack on him to be an attack on me.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Sigh...and what attack did i level against amine, feenix?

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Okay, I started to get a bit sleepy but anyway

      adagio, if you won't ask your questions regarding my belief in a respectful manner justifying it as a form of free speech, then you simply are disrespecting me, I mean what kind of discussion are we going to have if we don't treat each other with respect.

      And you can talk all day long but talking about God in a disrespectful way will never be accepted from no one who believes in God, so simple is it.

      Okay, in my current believe I don't see a difference between my believe and the truth, in fact right now my belief has become equal to the truth. and I don't see any contravention in it nor any reason to even start thinking about rejecting my believe. so when you said "I think that the biggest problem that theists have with atheists is having their beliefs challenged and the words can be painful to hear at times. But shouldn't that make your faith even stronger?" this isn't affecting me nor my belief in anyway.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      my dear link, I din't really get the point that made you think that I don't have much self respect, please justify you comment.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      It was pretty clear amine, sorry if you did not understand.

      I am debating whether or not to explain it again, my patience is wearing thin with all this talk of annoying people by asking simple fucking questions about what is being written and then getting whined at. Its ridiculous that grown men have this much of a problem with having questions asked of them.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Okay, if you want me to leave I can leave, if this is what you're trying to say.

      but if that was all what you had to say regarding you earlier comment then you're now the one who has been attacking the writer instead of the points mentioned in the content. and if that whined talk was for me, I didn't complain to you nor about you so...

      quite honestly I don't understand why you're using the F word and got angry, I can hardly imagine that my comments on this hub would make you this upset.

      However, if that's what you want I can leave I mean I have at least enough self respect to leave when one tells me to leave his hub

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Except that i did address your point amine...

      Since feenix neglected to elaborate maybe you can help, what attack are you talking about? Even if i had said "You don't respect yourself" directly like that...how is that an attack?

      You can stay if you want amine, but at this point i think things are just going to go in circles. And as for my annoyance, it is mainly directed by the dishonest responses i have gotten from feenix on his other 2 hubs.

      Oh and as a note, since you view my comments to him as annoying, it might be better for you to not comment on my hubs in the future. You arent banned from doing so, but we probably wont get anywhere if you do. I don't really have patience for people who only take one side on the matter and ignore any other viewpoints.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      by saying "You don't respect yourself" you were insulting me and foremost when you didn't justify why you said that. but I guess you see that too as a form of free speech don't you?(the word attacking wasn't meant in the traditional physical form but more insulting the person you're talking with), I won't insult you for insulting me that's not my style okay.

      as for my comments on your hubs you said that things are just going to go in circles, so I guess you're not really interested in my opinion at least not regarding your hubs, but still if you don't mind I will share my opinion with the others who are interested in what I have to say. and as long as I'm not banned or didn't receive a direct request to leave I won't leave.

      I hope you're okay with that.

      and when you mentioned your comments on feenix's hub yeah it was a bit inappropriate to go to other hubs of him and try to annoy him , i mean okay you had your fun and all but one should at least show some respect to older people. I didn't take one side you were just over doing it , and besides that how much different was calling atheists who attack Christians cowards from you saying that I don't have much self respect, it was in both situations an insult so .....

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      You are free to talk to whoever you want on my hubs amine.

      I am going to explain what i said and didn't say.

      I said it seemed as if you did not have respect for yourself based off of an earlier comment from you. Not once did i assert that you didn't actually have any respect for yourself. Even if i had stated that directly, i still fail to see how it is an insult.

      As for things going in circles, that was already shown between you and Jmc.

      As for feenix's hub...i have a question for you. When you write your hubs, do you allow comments on them? Assuming that you do, if someone were to comment on your hub to critisize something you said in error, would you reply to that comment in order to show that what you said wasn't wrong? Or would you ignore that persons comment completely, bring up a bunch of random stuff to avoid responding to the criticism, to then just ban people who disagree with you from commenting?

      I sincerely hope you just did not notice, but that is exactly what feenix did...a lot. He wrote a hub, allowed comments, and thanked people who agreed with him. Yet when people who disagreed with him showed up, suddenly his hub turns into his opinion that is above criticism and he is under no obligation to answer anything from them. But he still has no problem thanking the people who agree with him.

      Show some respect to older people? No one just deserves respect like that. I don't respect liars and people who feel the need to bring up their past accomplishments in order to shut me up from questioning them, whether they be 20 years old or 100.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Allow me to vent. Although I do like Feenix and respect his views, I will say that people don't always deserve respect due to their age. There are certain elders I do not care for. Link, there are many hubbers who write stuff, and delete the comments of those who disagree with them. One such hubber freaked out when I disagreed with her strongly, on many of her topics. She can't stand to have anyone challenge her beliefs--she claims that anyone who challenges her is hating on her, and even talked of taking legal action just because her views were challenged. She even called someone a stalker when they weren't stalking her. What a nut! Clearly, this lady is NOT playing with a full deck. But I digress....the point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of hubbers who don't want to hear naysayers, perceive their criticisms as "hate" and "mean," and even delete comments and claim they are "editing." BS!

      And I am sure that I am one person who doesn't like to be disagreed with, but I don't go off the deep end like the person I described above.

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      Amine –

      Let me address your points here.

      Of course someone who is raised a theist can become an atheist, and likewise the other way around. That doesn’t mean they just woke up one day and decided to reverse their position. It means they were convinced. When someone is convinced of something, it’s not a choice they’re making – that’s my whole point. You don’t just choose a belief. You become convinced that something is true and belief follows that process. This flies in the face of just asserting that belief is a choice that people get to make of their own volition.

      Secondly, my analogy of the milk vs. battery acid is completely fitting. Right now Christianity tries to preach peace and harmony, but that’s hardly what it was doing in the past. We don’t even have to look that far back to see the atrocities of people who were calling themselves followers of Christ, just like we can see the atrocities of followers of Islam today. We see countless examples even today in our present time of Muslims killing Christians, Christians killing Muslims, parents killing children, claiming that God told them too, etc. So how was the analogy too far reaching in your opinion?

      If you’re afraid of God, why would you believe in it? Why would you worship it? The bible talks a lot about the marks of true faith – that it’s not enough to just confess with your mouth, but you have to sincerely believe and act accordingly. Jesus himself says many of those who claim to be saved will be told “get away from me, I never knew you”. An all-knowing, all powerful god will be able to tell the difference between sincere faith and fear. Fear is not faith. If you’re just claiming to believe because you’re afraid of the consequences if you don’t, that’s not true faith either.

      No, at some point I do not HAVE to respect your beliefs. There is no point when someone should just demand that their beliefs be respected just because they’re beliefs. You can’t force someone to respect anything, and I think it’s a little arrogant to assume that you could. I do not expect you to respect me or the fact that I’m an atheist. Respect is something that is earned, not automatic and it is also purely subjective. You decide subjectively what you view as respectful or disrespectful, so in a dialog, I could say something completely tame in my perception, and you could find it disrespectful and rude. That’s not my problem. We do not, as adults who are willingly engaging, participating in and seeking out these conversations, cater to the whims of the strangers we encounter – at least I don’t. How am I supposed to know what you find disrespectful and avoid it? I don’t censor myself in case someone may be offended by something I say – that’s their choice and their prerogative, not mine and I’m not going to change my manner of speaking just in case someone else finds it distasteful. I will speak respectfully as long as the person I’m conversing with is respectful in return. In other words, you get what you give.

      Lastly, because this is already too long, you said that all of those who were punished by god deserved it. I find it abhorrent that believers of any type would try to justify immorality and evil actions just because they have to. What did the unborn children do to deserve to be ripped from their mother’s wombs by sword? What did the children do to deserve death? What did the animals do? I’ll quote it for you: “Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" 1 Samuel 15:3 ” The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” Hosea 13:16

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      The justification i saw earlier from someone else was that the children would have grown up evil just like their evil parents so they deserved to be murdered.

      Takes a special kind of crazy to justify that...

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      If a world leader today was to order an army to invade a territory that already belonged to someone else and slaughter everyone - man, woman, child infant and take the virgins as sex slaves, everyone would revolt and demand that leader to be removed - and rightly so. But if it's god, it gets a free pass to do anything that it wants. That kind of immorality and justification is repugnant - and NO, it doesn't deserve to be respected. Hitler believed that he was doing the right thing by attempting to exterminate jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and political adversaries, but I don't have to respect those beliefs. No beliefs get a free pass from criticism and deserve to be respected just because someone believes them. For example, Star insists that Muslims were deceived by Satan pretending to be an angel, and therefore they all follow the devil. Is that respectful of their beliefs? Hardly. The double standards really are staggering - how people demand that their beliefs be respected, who likewise have no problem telling other people that they're liars, immature, deceived by Satan, evil, immoral, etc. when they disagree with them. If you want some respect, you have to show some yourself. All it is is a staggering case of special pleading - essentially saying "my beliefs are better than everyone else's beliefs, so I demand that they be respected, but I won't bother respecting anyone else's beliefs because they disagree with my beliefs and are therefore clearly wrong."

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      I love God, have faith in Him. Yet, I fear Him. The bible says, fear the one who can destroy you body and soul, and cast you into hell. Yeah, maybe God ordered the slaying of mass people. He is GOD. We are His creation to do with what He likes. If He wants to, He can kill us all. God does not have to answer to anybody--yet you feel He has to answer to you. You know that saying, "Who died and made you God?" Well, in this case, it is God. I believe that God knew ahead of time that those babies and children were going to grow up in rebellion of Him, and hate Him. And those who weren't, I suppose they are in a better place than here right now. I love and fear God at the same time. Do I want to be one of those who Jesus says, "Turn away from me?" Absolutely not. Could I be? I don't know. I hope not, but it is healthy to fear God in that respect. I think Anime and I are on the same page. You seem to not care who you offend, J. You claim I don't respect others, but you don't respect others either, if you think you can behave the way you behave with no apologies, with no care to whether someone is insulted--and say it is their fault they are insulted.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      Amine: "so when you said "I think that the biggest problem that theists have with atheists is having their beliefs challenged and the words can be painful to hear at times. But shouldn't that make your faith even stronger?" this isn't affecting me nor my belief in any"

      Then why do you care? Your answer seems to indicate otherwise. You're demanding that your beliefs be respected. What you believe is your business. But when your beliefs begin to insert themselves into the legislative process, they become MY business and everyone else's, and that's when respect for your beliefs comes to a grinding halt. We have plenty of examples of legislators doing that very thing, and they will be resisted by people like myself with all the force necessary to stop them in their tracks.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "One such hubber freaked out when I disagreed with her strongly, on many of her topics. She can't stand to have anyone challenge her beliefs--she claims that anyone who challenges her is hating on her, and even talked of taking legal action just because her views were challenged. She even called someone a stalker when they weren't stalking her. What a nut! Clearly, this lady is NOT playing with a full deck"

      I could have sworn you were talking about Feenix.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      No, I was talking about someone else, who I won't name, because she'll go ballistic.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      JMcFarland ; "No beliefs get a free pass from criticism and deserve to be respected just because someone believes them."

      Couldn't have said it better myself. The examples that you offer demonstrate with enormous impact the consequences of offering respect to someones "beliefs" simply because they believe them. It seems that any criticism of someones beliefs must be done with kid-gloves. What I've found to be the case is that when an atheist questions a theist, they are using logic in their argument. The theist beliefs are not rooted in logic, so they can't respond logically to the criticism. So the argument is always on the atheists terms, and those terms are always based on what we know as reality.

      The theist argues from an illogical premise. He has a theory of rationality. The most basic problem with theories of rationality is that they require justification by some authority. Beliefs must be justified by an appeal to an authority of some kind (usually the source of the belief in question) and this justification by an appropriate authority makes the belief either rational, or if not rational, at least valid for the person who holds it. However this is a requirement that can never be adequately met due to the problem of validation or the dilemma of infinite regress vs. dogmatism. By infinite regress, I mean as long as the theist ( and this is the problem for the conservative ideology as well) holds onto his position dogmatically he will be subject to continued appeals to authority to justify his position. This can be taken into what is called “infinite regress.” There is no escape other than through the use of circular reasoning which is a logical fallacy and offers no escape at all. A fallacious type of circular reasoning is to create a circular chain of reasoning like this one: “God exists.” “How do you know that God exists?” “The Bible says so.” “Why should I believe the Bible?” “Because it’s the inspired word of God.” The so-called “final proof” relies on unproven evidence set forth initially as the subject of debate. Basically, the argument goes in an endless circle, with each step of the argument relying on a previous one, which in turn relies on the first argument yet to be proven. Surely, God deserves a more intelligible argument than the circular reasoning proposed in this example! It amounts to hiding your head in the sand and thinking that nobody can see you. So, ultimately there is no escape.   Check Mate!

      A person that has a theory of rationality has to defend that theory through justification from an Appeal to Authority - in this case the authority is the Bible which is the inspired word of God, according to, who else...the Bible. Circular reasoning isn't going to win an argument with anybody that uses logic as a guide, and atheist's get that. You can't use a theory as it's own basis. If we claim a basis gives us truth, we then are making the implicit claim that truth requires basis. But then it is plainly obvious that our own basis lacks a basis, as it cannot be its own basis. That's a circular argument. By claiming truth must be demonstrated by basis, we undermine our own moral integrity which I would think would be important to the theist that would think that his sense of morality is at stake. When the theist attacks the atheist for his lack of a moral compass, the atheist often responds with astonishment and often ridicule that the theist could make such a claim knowing that the theists argument cannot be defended in any rational sense, which is what matters to the atheist.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      Star, you say this: "I love God, have faith in Him. Yet, I fear Him. The bible says, fear the one who can destroy you body and soul, and cast you into hell." There's a saying that goes, "everything before "But"(yet) doesn't count.

      Your love for God is based on fear. From a Christian perspective, if a person is “good” because he wants to go to heaven, is he not being “bad” as he is pursuing selfish ends. It appears that your love of God is based on self-interest rather than the self-sacrifice as taught by Jesus.

      Do you decide not to go out and kill somebody out of fear of what the law will do to you? Or do you not go out and kill somebody because it's wrong? I'm an atheist and I don't need a Bible lesson or a religion to tell me that. And I don't go out and murder people, and it's NOT because there is a law against it. I wouldn't do it even if there wasn't a law against it. The Golden Rule is enough to inform me of that, and the Golden Rule has no specific religion attached to it. Almost all religions point to it. I was taught the Golden Rule as a child and my mother said as long as I remembered that, everything else would fall into place.

      But even the Golden Rule is rooted in selfish desire to be treated as I want to be treated. So it's not rooted in duty. That is, doing the right thing for the right reason. The motive is self-interest and there is no moral worth to that.

      I'll give you an example: A young boy walks into a store to buy some bread. His folks gave him the money but he's really to young to do the math, so the store owner takes his money and realizes that he could short change the boy, and he wouldn't know the difference. BUT...he also knows that if word got out that he cheated the boy, he would lose business. So instead of cheating the boy out of his change, he gives the boy the correct change. The Question is this: Is there any moral worth to the owners actions? What would your answer be?

      When you say this, "I love God, have faith in Him. Yet, I fear Him. The bible says, fear the one who can destroy you body and soul, and cast you into hell." You are justifying your love of God based on your fear that he could destroy you body and soul and cast you into hell. Your love is based on fear of what might happen if you don't love him. The motive is wrong. You're love of God is based on self-interest.

      What you're illustrating here is a hypothetical imperative. If the action ( your love of God) would be good solely as a means to some end, ( avoiding the pits of Hell) the imperative is hypothetical. However would you love God if you knew that you were going straight to hell, because he's God and says screw you. I'm God and I can do what I want. I'm sending you to hell.

      If, however, the action is good in itself, and therefore necessary for a will which of itself accords with reason, the imperative is categorical. In other words, if you love God regardless of his decision to send you to the pits, that is a catagorical imperative. Loving God is not a means to an end. It's an end in itself.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      JMF, thanks you for addressing my points directly instead of ......like....

      you're right this is going a bit long here, which makes me think that link might be right when he said things are going to go in circles, we just can't agree (which doesn't really bother me) . we look at thing in a completely different way, I had many discussions with atheists online and real life, and honestly we never agreed on something. anyway I will address all your point, although some I already addressed in earlier comment but you just fail to see things from my viewpoint. because most of your replies (not all, I will talk about those later) that were addressing my points, were built on personal thoughts and beliefs from your part.

      so at first I will talk about all the points mentioned in all paragraphs of your last comment except the last paragraph, I will keep that one for later.

      1- your first paragraph :

      The summery :

      belief is not a choice you make because you need to be convinced to that belief . Quot "When someone is convinced of something, it’s not a choice they’re making ".

      My reply : in my opinion there is two situations to talk about here (i didn't take much time in analyzing this point, so I might add something later)

      First situation: when we are talking about an atheist.

      he needs to feel the necessity of God or a God like presence (this could happen if the person in question finds himself in a miserable situation, and I heard about many non believes who found themselves in such a situation and started asking a non present undefined person ((could be God)) for help), in this situation that person had before the occurrence of such a situation, a choice to believe in God (even if he wasn't really sure about God, and again No phrase was found neither in the old testament Nor in the Quran that could Forbid a the person to believe, just because of fear from God or seeking a purpose in life that Goes beyond death, and extra Note when you say it's not real faith, then I have to say Faith in based on the believe (regardless of the form of that believe) so Being afraid of God leads to believing In god and that leads to Faith, yes maybe the ones who believe in God without being just afraid of him might get a better reward or something . at that point I should mention fear is an essential part of faith.

      the second situation;

      is a theist who starts to see the contravention of his current believe this person has simply the choice to criticize his religions and search for the one that he sees as more logic then the first one. this is in case hi still want to believe in God.

      ........

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      2- second paragraph :

      point 1: you said "my analogy of the milk vs. battery acid is completely fitting"

      my reply : that's your point of view not mine, it impossible for me to compere a religious belief with the crazy thoughts of some dude.

      point 2: yes some Christians did a lot of bad unjustified things in the past, but again not all were bad, in fact most of then were good. but those who were responsible for the bloody mascaras were the ones who were in charge of the armies people with power , and besides this doesn't mean the religion it self is bad or evil , just how link said it was poorly presented, and those guys misused their power to gain more wealth and land and so on we all know that don't we?. and the very same is happening with Muslims some just tend to present that religion as bad or evil on purpose , and the greedy part is also present .

      and I have to say that you lack the knowledge that there is people who on purpose pretend to be Christians or muslims and do horrible things to just destroy their public Image ( that of the religion I mean). and in case you wanna reply to this point, I said that depending on personal experience so I know what I'm talking about.

      3- the third paragraph

      point 1 : you said "If you’re afraid of God, why would you believe in it?"

      my reply : I have to copy past something I already mentioned in an earlier reply of this comment, Being afraid of God leads to believing In god and that leads to Faith, yes maybe the ones who believe in God without being just afraid of him might get a better reward or something . so being afraid of God is a part of believe , a very essential one. if you don't agree on this point that's your point of view.

      point 2: you said "Jesus himself says many of those who claim to be saved will be told “get away from me, I never knew you” that's a completely other subject, that very same phrase is if I'm not wrong also mentioned in the Quran so there is two situations to talk about and in both situations they were not meant how you think, I won't reply to this point now because I need to revise my books and then I'll tell you , I mean i don't wanna say something I'm not to 100% sure about .

      again you said fear is not faith, so again it's a part of the believe, to be afraid of his punishment if you do something forbidden .

      .........

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      4- the fourth paragraph

      summery : you think you don't have to talk in a respectful way regarding my belief nor my God justifying it with words "Respect is something that is earned" . adding that you can't know what is exactly disrespectful , quot "How am I supposed to know what you find disrespectful and avoid it?" , and also adding that you respect what and who respects you with the words " I will speak respectfully as long as the person I’m conversing with is respectful in return. In other words, you get what you give."

      my reply : it's your point of view if you won't to talk with me in a respectful way about my believe just because you think my believe or my God has to earn your respect, honestly that's not logic. and if you want to say I was talking about the believer who needs to earn the respect, then this is gonna be hard if you just meat that person and if he doesn't earn your respect then its him who didn't earn your respect not the belief itself nor God.

      if you start insulting one's God or just talking about him in a disrespectful way while that theist is beside you and you know you're talking s**t about God, then you are responsible for his reactions. and how couldn't you predict that the theist will get angry while you are talking stupid s**t about his God while he is present so really.... I mean you are talking stupid s**t about his God, what part of stupid and s**t didn't tell you that this is disrespectful.

      respect goes both sides ( i really can't remember who said that you or link but one of you said that right) so before requesting respect you need to stop disrespecting the other one's belief or God, if you don't like that guy or he presents his religion poorly then insult him instead of his belief or God.

      5- fifth paragraph ( for this one I think it doesn't depend on your personal thoughts or beliefs but the fact that neither you nor me nor anyone of us can understand the complete meaning of God's words, there was one point I didn't mention for personal reasons)

      I think a murder deserves to be punished just like everyone else if you see it other ways that's again your point of view .

      when you said " What did the unborn children do to deserve to be ripped from their mother’s wombs by sword?" and started quoting

      now I would start a very dangerous talk her That I won't start with you, because you are talking about God as if he is a murder rather then a God If Jesus would be still here And he would command me to scarify myself I would The same Goes for all prophets and messengers (of course there were some who pretended to be prophets I wasn't obviously talking about them) . I accept God, My body belongs to Him, just like my soul he can take it any tame he wishes and I don't mind that simply because He Is my God , and another point needs to be mentioned you interpreted Many phrases in a wrong way not because you want to but because WE ALL HERE KNOW VERY FEW ABOUT GOD AND ALL WHAT HE SAID IS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE 100% SURE ABOUT .THE ABSOLUTE MEANING OF GOD'S WORDS IF CAN'T SIMPLY BE UNDERSTOOD JUST LIKE THAT, YOU NEED TO STUDY IT FOR MANY MANY YEARS, THE ONLY ONES WHO WERE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT IMMEDIATELY WERE THE PROPHETS AND MESSENGERS.

      -As for the point where you mentioned Jesus and what he said I will reply later when I'm sure about what I think I know.

      Adagio -- yes I said that and yeah I'm here debating with you for multiple reasons that I won't mention at least not all of them, but I will tell you about the most important one .

      it's because I want No I need to see How people who say that they don't need God nor won't believe in him think. because for me this is beyond comprehension, although I will respect respect everyone's belief and that is because respect goes both sides.

      SORRY IF THAT WAS TOO LONG

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      starr ". He is GOD. We are His creation to do with what He likes. If He wants to, He can kill us all. God does not have to answer to anybody" that was absolutely correct, well said.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Amine, you realize someone can apply that logic to abusive parents right?

      Its like telling a little kid its okay that their parents beat and punish them everyday. They gave birth to the child so they can kill it anytime they wish and don't need a reason to, but its okay because they are the parents.

      That doesn't sound odd to you at all?

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      God didn't Gave birth to me my parents Gave birth to me, God created me and my parents. my body belongs to the one who created me not to who gave birth to me . although my personal belongings and money can be taken by my parents without my permission. but my life my body my soul all belongs to God not me and not to my parents. it's like if I made a robot, it belongs to me I created it I can do with it whatever I want. so is God He created me I belong to Him He can do whatever He wants with me.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      sorry forgot to say. so My parent don't have the right to treat me badly, even if they do I have no right to treat them badly in return.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      Interesting comparison. A robot. We're all robots for God? What authority came up with this? I mean, somebody had to offer this as an authoritative position. Where does it come from?

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      if a certain person can compere crazy of some dude with religious beliefs, then I can compere ourselves with robots . and besides it's sounds way more understandable than the first one.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Link, you are likening God to a human, when you cannot do that. No, parents do not have a right to abuse their child, but they are not God. You cannot give God human attributes in that way. God is not human, He is above human. You can't put Him in the same category as a human. He is too beyond that.

      Adagio, I do fear God, but fear does not drive me. You are wrong to assume that I am a Christian out of fear....you do not know me well at all. Of course I appreciate the sacrifice Jesus made on our behalves, and I am a good person because I want to be, not so it will get me to heaven, though I do want to glorify God in all that I do.

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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Odd how that only works when someone is disagreeing Star, because I have seen no end to people saying that god loves, forgives, gets sad and angry, all of which are very human attributes.

      Also, what does it mean if someone tells me that we were all created in gods image? Break it down for me with the way you interpret that.

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      I will respond to the long posts later.

      Star, god likens himself to a human with human attributes. He is jealous, angry, vengeful, peaceful loving, etc. Those are all human attributes that the biblical god uses to describe himself, so when an atheist does it, it is more in line with the biblical god than you seem to be.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      No. I don't know you. I'm commenting on what you say. You said this; "I love God, have faith in Him. (Yet,) I fear Him. The bible says, fear the one who can destroy you body and soul, and cast you into hell." There's a saying that goes, "everything before "But"(yet) doesn't count. What I mean is that you are qualifying your statement with "yet" or "but", which makes your first statement conditional. I mean no dis-respect to your view. I'm just pointing out that you're bringing up a "fear of God" as a condition for your reasoning. Why does that have anything to do with your love for God?

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "then I can compere ourselves with robots . and besides it's sounds way more understandable than the first one."

      you can do that if you choose. But is that a comparison that you really want to make? Where does "free will" enter into that?

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "Odd how that only works when someone is disagreeing Star, because I have seen no end to people saying that god loves, forgives, gets sad and angry, all of which are very human attributes."

      Let's not forget jealousy. I don't know what God would have to be jealous of? That's a human emotion. Why would God be subject to emotions? Do emotions rule God? How can God be ruled by anything and still be Omnipotent? In fact love, forgiveness, sadness, anger, and jealousy are all emotions that are in man. What kind of God would be ruled or subject to emotions? Isn't he beyond all that stuff?

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      We are made in God's image, but we are human. We are in God's image, not the other way around. Yes, God has human traits, but those traits were given to us by God. They were God's traits first before they were ours. Still, God is God, more divine than humans.

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      Link10103 2 years ago

      And yet you just said i can't give god human attributes Star...

      Now its all those attributes originally belonged to him, yet we can't use the traits god himself has to judge what he does simply because god is god? That doesn't sound like a very strong argument.

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      Link10103 2 years ago

      God can apparently be anything adagio, however much those things contradict. Which is why i have to ask 100 different questions to see which version such and such person believes in.

      Usually i only get to ask like 2 of them though before random stuff starts getting mentioned.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      I currently don't have a bible right next to me. so I have to ask you when you guys mentioned human attributes like vengeful and jealous where they referred to Jesus or to God (so in Christianity the father). and I was talking about that two attributes not the other ones please quot them.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      so does really no one have an answer or what.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      You could say me and adagio were preoccupied elsewhere amine...

      As for the verses, i don't have them memorized like Jmc does and probably adagio. If they can't get back to you in detail ill see about answering it.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      alright and thanks

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "I currently don't have a bible right next to me. so I have to ask you when you guys mentioned human attributes like vengeful and jealous where they referred to Jesus or to God (so in Christianity the father). and I was talking about that two attributes not the other ones please quot them."

      I'm not sure what your question is Amine. Are you asking where in the Bible does it refer to Jesus or God as having human attributes like Vengeance or jealousy? There is no place in the New Testament that indicates any Vengeance or jealousy coming from Jesus. However you'll find a host of things in the Old Testament referring to a vengeful God. In the New Testament Romans 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

      There's actually a whole lot of stuff in the Bible on the wrath of God.

      Romans 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

      John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

      Romans 12:17-21 - Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

      Isaiah 26:21 - For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

      Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

      Revelation 19:11-21 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (Read More...)

      Ezekiel 25:17 - And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them. ( I can still hear Samuel L. Jackson reciting that in Pulp Fiction)

      Nahum 1:2-6 - God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.

      Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

      2 Peter 2:9 - The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

      Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ( I think you or somebody else referred to this passage earlier)

      Psalms 7:11 - God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.

      Hebrews 9:22 - And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

      Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

      John 15:6 - If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

      So... there's a lot of examples of anger, jealousy, rage, human emotions. Our emotions rule us. We become slaves to them. Why would an omnipotent God be subject to emotions? Subject. That indicates that there is something that Rules over God. That he is a subject of emotions. How can that be?

      This brings to mind a serious question that came up in the 1700's, regarding natural laws. A basic issue for Locke and many of his contemporaries was the ontological status of natural law and in particular its relation to God’s will. If one took the view, common among natural law theorists of his day, that natural law is eternal and unchanging, then this view threatened another notion many of them thought compelling: that God is omnipotent. By definition, an all-powerful God could not be bound by natural law. Yet if God has the capacity to change natural law, we cannot assume it to be timeless and fixed. Locke was a Thomist. He was a believing Christian theologian throughout his life. And there was a huge debate that had gone on actually for two centuries before Locke wrote among theologians, and this was the puzzle that they were worried about. The question was, "Can God change natural law?" If you said no, that would suggest that God is not omnipotent, but if you said yes, that would suggest that natural law is not a system of timeless universals, because if God could change natural law maybe he'll choose to change it tomorrow.

      The Euthyphro Dilemma is something that dates back to Plato.

      Divine command theory is widely held to be refuted by an argument known as “the Euthyphro dilemma”. This argument is named after Plato’s Euthyphro dialogue, which contains the inspiration for the argument, though not, as is sometimes thought, the argument itself.

      The Euthyphro dilemma rests on a modernised version of the question asked by Socrates in the Euthyphro: “Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?”

      Each of these two possibilities, the argument runs, leads to consequences that the divine command theorist cannot accept. Whichever way the divine command theorist answers this question, then, it seems that his theory will be refuted. This argument might be formalised as follows:

      The Euthyphro Dilemma

      (1) If divine command theory is true then either (i) morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good, or (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God.

      (2) If (i) morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good, then they are morally good independent of God’s will. That would mean they exist outside of God.

      (3) It is not the case that morally good acts are morally good independent of God’s will.

      Therefore:

      (4) It is not the case that (i) morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good.

      (5) If (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God, then there is no reason either to care about God’s moral goodness or to worship him.

      (6) There are reasons both to care about God’s moral goodness and to worship him.

      Therefore:

      (7) It is not the case that (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God.

      Therefore:

      (8) Divine command theory is false.

      Premise (1) stated that if divine command theory were true then one of the two alternatives offered to the divine command theorist would also be true. The argument from (2) to (7) has, it is claimed, shown that neither alternative is true. It is therefore inferred that divine command theory is false.

      This is just a bunch of interesting stuff and I don't know if it answered your question at all. But I think that the idea that God is subject to emotional outbursts kind of negates any idea that I would have of God. I mean...how can human beings even conceive of something like God without putting him into human terms that we could relate to? So..God is a guy that sits on a throne with a long white beard throwing lightning bolts now and then and causing floods and threatening anybody that doesn't worship him with eternal damnation. So under that kind of threat, people say they love God because they fear going to Hell. That's not love. That's coercion. Love me or I'll send you straight to hell. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. There is something really twisted and sick about that.

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      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Dang, Adagio, you could have just written a new hub instead of this lengthy answer.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Star...since im seeing this complaint a lot lately by people who don't want to address any of the points made, i have to ask:

      What's the difference between a lengthy comment and a lengthy hub using the same words from said lengthy comment? You still end up reading it.

      Besides, a good chunk of that comment was bible verses, which was requested.

      Amine on the other hand had 4 different comments, each an essays worth and most in his own words i believe. Not that i see a problem with the length...but you didn't seem to mention anything about that at the time.

      Was there a specific reason for that? I can guess 2 reasons, but they are only guesses without your input, however likely they are to be true.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Link, Anime did write long responses, true....but had Adagio put that all into a hub, he might have made at least a little bit of money for it. And it would be easier to find in the future.

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      Wow. You made a marvelous effort. Bravo! But I have found a little discrepancy with something. You don't seem to like it when someone comments on your lack of writing Hubs:

      "I seem to be getting so many requests from people during discussions to write more hubs. Pushing aside the fact that those requests are veiled attacks on my character, you know because somehow the lack of hubs on one's profile somehow makes whatever you say irrelevant, I figured why not?"

      But 7 months ago on your first Hub, you wrote in the comments:

      "And something else I'm sure soared over your head, you realize JT doesn't seem to have written anything in 10 months, yet all he does is condescend and insult others in the Q&A, right? Or is it because he agrees with you that you seem to have just not noticed?"

      Sound familiar?

      BTW, I guess you are right. There is some hypocrisy among some Hubbers, but not the ones you pointed out. Maybe you should do some reflecting after this. If you have forgotten anything, don't worry, I have snapshots.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Adagio wrote about 1400 hundred words. You can probably cut that down to 1000 and probably less since there was copy and paste.

      Amine on the other hand wrote close to 1700, most if not all of it was in his own words...

      And yet it would have been easier for adagio to make a hub...

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Oh, Link, you're so cute, counting words!

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Dont worry biz, you wont need those snapshots. Unlike yourself i don't have a habit of deleting comments that call out BS or disagree with me, unless they are insulting me or asserting i have different reasons for doing something other than the ones i clearly stated.

      And as for the discrepancy...where is it? Because if you are implying that i was berating JT for not having written anything for close to a year and that is the source of my hypocrisy, is there a reason you neglected to quote the comments that led up the one you quoted from me?

      You know, the comment where JT was gloating about his 300+ hubs, which by the way had nothing to do with what was being talked about, as well as the comment that stated the reason why I don't care to write dozens of hubs a month that he completelty ignored in order to gloat more?

      Also lets forget the actual point i was getting at to the person i was replying to in that comment you quoted, the context of which would have been known had you included the comment right before it.

      But you didn't...was there a reason for that?

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Thank you star for not addressing what i said...its very telling.

      Would this be a bad time to point out i copy and pasted the comments into a word counter, which took 30 seconds by the way, due to a failed point you tried to make?

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      Link,

      You are not a reality star, so the whole "taken out of context" excuse doesn't work. Just own up to it and admit you are being hypocritical because if you don't, you will lose what little credibility you have.

      You threw the fact he hadn't written hubs in a while in his face and said all he does is insult others on Q & A. This is what you have been accused of and you criticized those who called you on it. Now you are trying to use smoke and mirrors when it is in plain black and white.

      Or do you always have good reasons for doing something while others who do the same are just liars and hypocrites?

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "Dang, Adagio, you could have just written a new hub instead of this lengthy answer."

      Amine asked for a response. I gave him/her as complete a response as I could. I still don't know if it covered what Amine was looking for. When I write a post I generally address each point that a person brings up without leaving any stone unturned. If it's too much for you, then skip it.

      Stargrrl @Link, Anime did write long responses, true....but had Adagio put that all into a hub, he might have made at least a little bit of money for it. And it would be easier to find in the future.

      I didn't write if for the money Star. I gave Amine as many examples that addressed his request as I could find. There could have been more.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      So...i can only complain about people taking things out of context to try to distort and change the meanings of what i say...if i am a reality star?

      I really hope the actual meaning to that just flew over my head, otherwise that was a really stupid thing for me to read.

      Since you neglected to quote the person i was replying to in that comment, again, I'll go ahead and do the work for you.

      Lybrah's comment: "If you don't want to make money or write hubs, why exactly are you here? To condescend and insult other people for no reason?"

      The latter part of my response, the comment you quoted: "And something else I'm sure soared over your head, you realize JT doesn't seem to have written anything in 10 months, yet all he does is condescend and insult others in the Q&A, right? Or is it because he agrees with you that you seem to have just not noticed?"

      The reason for me pointing that out is because she had zero qualms always agreeing with JT, regardless if he was being condescending or insulting someone for next to no reason. I even gave an example later down the line in that same hub, not that you would have bothered quoting it.

      Try again Biz...

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      TheBizWhiz @Link,

      "You are not a reality star, so the whole "taken out of context" excuse doesn't work. Just own up to it and admit you are being hypocritical because if you don't, you will lose what little credibility you have."

      What does taking things out of context have to do with being a "reality star". I don't get that at all? And...I don't think that the quantity of Hub outputs is as important as the Quality that goes into them. What good is putting out a dozen crappy Hubs. I'd prefer to read one or two that were really dead on the mark.

      "

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      You said: "So...i can only complain about people taking things out of context to try to distort and change the meanings of what i say...if i am a reality star?

      I really hope the actual meaning to that just flew over my head, otherwise that was a really stupid thing for me to read."

      Wow, have you been hiding under a rock or is your IQ that low? That is what reality stars say when they do something stupid on tape. They try to blame the editing for taking it out of context to make them look stupid when really they are just stupid. You must be really "special" if you didn't get that, but that is par for the course and I am used to dealing with you now. I expect a little "duh" moments from time to time.

      You said: "The reason for me pointing that out is because she had zero qualms always agreeing with JT,"

      Why do you care? That is between him and her. It doesn't excuse you for being a hypocrite.

      The fact is that no matter what their relationship is, you criticized him for A) Not writing hubs in a long time and B) Insulting people on Q & A, which are both things you just couldn't understand why people were saying to you. You are a hypocrite and a liar. At least come clean and be honest, but I don't think you have that in you.

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      Adagio

      It doesn't surprise me that you didn't get that either. Birds of a feather flock together. Oh wait! Do I need to explain that saying to you also? lol

      I agree that quality is better than quantity. I, myself have only written around 12 or 13 hubs. But if someone doesn't write any, then that defeats the purpose of quality also.

      I have no problem with what he said to the JT person. I understand actually. But what I don't understand is how he writes a whole article on hypocrisy of some hubbers, yet he cannot even recognize that same characteristic in his own actions. I mean it is in black and white and he won't even say "my bad". The dude is a loser

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      JMF_ I apologize for still being unable to finish my reply regarding what you said about Jesus. I know I said I will answer tomorrow (so today) , but I obviously don't have all my resources with me right now (other ways I wouldn't ask adagio for those verses ) so again I'm sorry, and I'll reply to that as soon as I can.

      adagio_ thanks a lot for your last comment. yeah that Euthyphro Dilemma was quite interesting and a bit entertaining, however I honestly don't care if morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good, or morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God. if it's the will of God who created me then its the will of God who created me, though this brings me to mention the free will and choice situation that God gave us. I know you will say something like if you follow God's will regardless of what it might be, then you have no free will, yeah this is true as long as you choose to believe in God (so you believe in God you can't do all the things you want to do except those that are allowed by him), but you have free will and the choice wether to believe in him or not, and if you choose to disbelieve in God then you can do everything you want regardless of what if might be, because there is no rules that determine your way of life (except two, the law of your country and but not always your own personally chosen ideals and what you consider for yourself as morally right, that in contrast would mean everyone can see whatever he want as morally acceptable or Good, so who knows maybe we could meet a guys who sees that having sex with his own sister or mother is morally acceptable while this isn't (at least not for me nor for most people I know and its clearly forbidden in many religious beliefs, adding that the modern medicine found that such a sexual relationship would result in most case in having a children with physically deformations so impaired , which means that religious restriction was doing us a favor)

      know I will talk about those emotions you mentioned before and why they are referred to an all powerful and all knowing God.

      I will divide this point into two parts, okay

      part 1 : yes God can become angry and loving and peaceful and merciful and in some case you will face his wrath (only if you do something awful )

      Why does he have such attributes?

      Obviously he is loving toward those believers who are loving others and worship him and respect his laws, He is merciful with those believers who are merciful with others and worship him and respect his laws, He can be angry over those nonbelievers who refuse him as only God as their God (but that anger will be shown on the judgement day, except very few situations that occurred during the eras of the prophets and messengers ), and vengeance is not that wrong except that his punishment would be exacted for a wrong act rather than an injury, in the end He is omnipotence. so adagio yes God can show such attributes toward us, and honestly this make sense to me, and I hope he is loving and merciful with me.

      part 2 : God won't have attributes such as jealousy

      why? I can answer that. jealousy means the state or feeling of being jealous, so for what would be God jealous for, and from who?

      if you say humans. what does we have that would make an all powerful all knowing God Jealous, that just doesn't make any sense. and if create everything he doesn't need to be Jealous of our achievements, possessions, or perceived advantages or whatever would make someone jealous.

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      Exodus 34:14New International Version (NIV)

      14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

      If you assert that God could not be jealous because it would have nothing to be jealous of but that God says himself that he is, one of you is clearly wrong.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      ...except that I did get it Biz, which is why I called it stupid. I left room on the off chance that I didn't actually get it to avoid making an ass of myself.

      Why do I care if she agrees with him? Probably because he was insulting me and another hubber at the time about our ages and she was off on the sidelines cheering for him. I was actually involved in it, which is why it was relevant to bring up. She had a problem with me being condescending and insulting, which was funny because that either wasn't the case or she completely ignored the people who insulted me first that i was responding to but acted as if I came out of left field swinging for no reason.

      What's black and white is that you come onto my hub, spout some bullshit, and attempt to prove your point by distorting what I said and not providing all the facts. Of course when I do the work for you, you jump ship and start talking about something else that you STILL don't even know all the facts for. Its hilarious, it really is. And you call me names to boot. Fantastic.

      Believe it or not, I have been waiting for someone to actually point out something I said that would make me go "Aw shit, my bad", But they never do. It would be REFRESHING to actually be shown that I was wrong somewhere, because then it would prove that all the people I talk don't all act the same when asked questions that address gaps in their logic.

      But that's not the case. Its always people like yourself that take things out of context, ignore what I say, completely lie about what is happening, or talk so far out of their ass that they bring up entirely irrelevant topics, to then suddenly disappear after calling me some such name or another as if they won the battle.

      Feel free to dig your hole deeper Biz...

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      You said: "What's black and white is that you come onto my hub, spout some bullshit, and attempt to prove your point by distorting what I said and not providing all the facts."

      I did provide facts. I provided your exact words or are you saying your own words are not fact?

      "Believe it or not, I have been waiting for someone to actually point out something I said that would make me go "Aw shit, my bad", But they never do. It would be REFRESHING to actually be shown that I was wrong somewhere,"

      Wow, you really like yourself. lol I also do not think that will happen either because you would never admit you are wrong. You just have that kind of personality.

      "But that's not the case. Its always people like yourself that take things out of context, ignore what I say, completely lie about what is happening, or talk so far out of their ass that they bring up entirely irrelevant topics, to then suddenly disappear after calling me some such name or another as if they won the battle."

      I have done none of that. Please show where I lied or went off topic. I mean we have been on the same topic this whole time: you hypocrisy. As for me "disappearing" I have no idea what you are talking about and I am sure neither do you. Get that aspergers taken care of.

      Won the battle? Only you and adagio think like that.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Biz, you don't like reading do you...its okay. Sometimes it difficult.

      You provided the exact words yes, never denied that. In fact I never corrected the comment you quoted and re-quoted it myself, so I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion unless you misdirected them.

      What you didn't provide, which I had to do for you since you refused to do so, was the other exact words that led up to those. You know, the words that explain the context of what I said. Those words. Yes Context is everything, even for the normal people. Honestly that reality star bit was just too stupid, but funny.

      For example. Lets pretend you said "I hate my gay neighbor because his dog keeps crapping all over my yard". Now if I were to quote only the first part of that sentence, "I hate my gay neighbor", while labeling it as your quote, well doesn't that show you as a potential homophobe? Would it not have been dishonest of me to exclude the rest of that sentence, as well as any comment that came before and after it to explain why you said that in order to damage your credibility?

      Oh and please, remember that was an example to show a point...it never fails that someone somewhere either takes the example literally or complains that its off topic.

      As for your last part, there is a reason I said "people like yourself", and then added a bunch of different things after it. I guess it was my mistake for not specifying that only the first 2 i mentioned actually applied directly to you, the rest apply to the people who have acted like yourself in the past. I didn't think i needed to specify, since I already stated you never bothered to provide any context, but my mistake I guess.

      Are you at half a mile yet? Anything else you want to go over so you can make it to the mile mark or are you done?

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      Wow. You just cannot admit you are a hypocrite and move on. You call everyone who disagrees with you a liar and you say they never present facts, but when I put your own words in your face, you cannot even admit you are wrong. Good job dude. Now I am sure you will say I am ignoring everything else you wrote, but the fact is that you just wrote a bunch of garbage and wasted your time.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Mmm, I guess so. We'll just overlook that I know for a fact Star disagrees with about 95% of what I say, and Im pretty positive me and amine don't agree on a lot either. Haven't called either of them a liar, I don't think anyway. Theres a lot of comments here and they are blending in with 2 other hubs at the moment so I could be wrong. As of right now only 2 people come to mind who I have called a liar recently, and that's because they actually lied or were otherwise dishonest.

      Im sorry you have such a difficult time reading Biz. It gets easier the more you do it. Thank you for your input.

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      I can read just fine. Better than you for sure. I am just glad you got rid of the avatar with the little weird dude petting his cat. Good luck w/ your new identity.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      But the weird dude was cute!!!! So was the kitty, for that matter. I love cats.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      There goes the irrelevant topic and name calling. Knew you had it in you Biz :D.

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      I have been keeping it to the subject but you aren't smart enough to even understand, so I got bored. It is so tiresome talking to someone with the IQ of a 13 year old. Sorry I hurt your feelings : (

      BTW; Try to write a real hub next time, not a rant. Come see mine if you need some pointers.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Personal attacks and ad hominems alore! Bravo Biz bravo.

      Somehow addressing each of your points and showing you to be wrong on each one somehow makes my intelligence on par with a 13 year old.

      Should it be considered sad that even a 13 year old probably wouldn't resort to as many insults as you have these past few comments?

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      Says the guy who calls everyone stupid and a liar

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Ignoring that you called me a loser, weird in a derogatory way, insulted my intelligence three times, said I have aspergers, insulted the quality of my hub, just now asserted that Im gay in another hub that I'm still following, and potentially called me an annoying gnat in another hub...

      Can you show the comments you are talking about? Verbatim if you can, as well as the comments that led up to them. Remember, context.

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      I didn't ignore anything, hence me asking if I hurt your feelings. I mean you give insults and then you get butthurt when someone lobs one back at you. I have denied nothing. But I find it funny that you are rude and insulting, yet you get your little feelings hurt and start crying "ad hominem"! lol

      I'm not going to show you anymore comments because it is a circle with you. You cannot admit you are wrong even when it is in front of your face. That is the sign of low intelligence and borderline personality disorder. Go ahead and say "AHA, you can't prove it" but the reality is that you are only good for one thing and that is arguing. You don't have an education and you aren't even a good "semi" aspiring writer.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      AHA you- oh damn it you beat me to it...

      Where were my feelings hurt again? If Im going to be honest I was more annoyed about the fact that you didn't provide any context to what I said more than the 9 times you insulted me. Well 11 now, 13 technically.

      You made a claim and now you wont back it up. You were so quick to point out a comment I made on a hub from 7 months ago that you thought made your point. After responding to your point and showing why it was wrong, you made up different reasons...all of which I went through with you. In detail. You didn't even bother addressing some of my responses to your points and jumped straight to the next one.

      The only thing I have said about you in this exchange is that you have difficulty reading, yet if you scroll up a bit you can see how many things you have said about me that were completely out of the blue...not sure how I am the one with my feelings hurt at this point when you are bringing stuff up that doesn't even relate to the topic anymore to insult me. Again.

      Are you in China yet? Hole must be miles deep by now...

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      I made a claim earlier with proof right in front of your face, but just completely deflected it, so what is the point in me giving you context anymore?

      I can't address all of your comments because throw out so much garbage that I am bound to miss something.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      A recap then.

      You claim that I am being hypocritical by complaining about people who tell me to write hubs in order to address what they are saying.

      Your "proof" of this is a comment I made 7 months ago where I mentioned the lack of recent hubs of another hubber.

      The thing is...nowhere did I say that his lack of recent hubs had any effect on his ability to criticize what I wrote , which is what I addressed in the very beginning of this hub, the thing you tried to criticize. Didn't insult any of his hubs, didn't tell him to stuff it until he wrote more hubs, didn't gloat about how much better mine were compared to his. Keep in mind this is all stuff you have done as well, 2 of them right on this very hub.

      You also neglected to give any context to the quote you gave which would explain the reasoning behind why I even mentioned it. I even gave you an example as to how that would be a problem.

      Fast forward a bit and by the end of it all you insult me 10+ times but still act as if you made a point which was proven false in my first 2 responses to it...

      Also, what do you mean giving me context "anymore"? You never did it to begin with, hence the million comments of back and forth between me and you. Had you done that from the start...well you would have defeated yourself right then and there, but at least we could have avoided your insults.

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      You could have written about a tenth of that if you hadn't dragged this thing on and just admitted you were wrong when the evidence was presented right before your face.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      Lol...have a nice day Biz.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      JFM_ I admit that what you said in you last comment was correct, the word jealous was mentioned in the exodus 34, and it was refereed to God.

      I actually was trying to find a good interpretation regarding that, and what it really meant. what I found is the following

      Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible (exodus 34: 14 )

      " his name and nature answer to one another; he admits of no rival or competitor in worship; he will not give his glory to another god, or one so called, nor his praise to graven images; and in this he is distinguished from all nominal and fictitious gods, who have many joined with them, and are rivals of them, which gives them no concern, because insensible; but it is otherwise with the Lord, who knows the dishonour done him, and resents it, and is as jealous of any worship being given to another"

      So before I get to that commentary I need to say in my mind the word Jealous referred to God just doesn't make sense (my point of view). but If you read the commentary you will understand that it says he was jealous of the false deities that were worshiped.

      I have to ask did you find that word in other verses ? however

      I am right when you would call God as jealous of humans (which isn't the case here), that just wouldn't be logical. but here we are talking about the false deities, which makes it different, not completely understandable for my mind (so I could be wrong), but different.

      if I find out more I'll let you know.

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 2 years ago

      You too

    • JMcFarland profile image

      Julie McFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

      What it sounds like you're saying is yes, god himself says he is a jealous God on more than one occasion (I just quoted one instance) but you don't believe that is possible, so you have to find a non scriptural, non "divinely inspired"commentary that will say something that you find more palatable and then you go with that. If you believe the Bible to be divinely inspired and infallible (I don't know if you do or not, as I don't know you) why would god himself describe himself as jealous of he really meant something else that has to be explained away by people hundreds and thousands of years later? Don't you think he knows how to describe himself? Can he not communicate effectively on his own that we as fallible humans have to go back later and try to decide what he meant because we don't like what he actually said?

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      I think God's words were sent to Jesus (I'm only talking about Christianity now) and Jesus repeated those words how they were to the people. Jesus who most probably couldn't even speak Hebrew or Greek ( perhaps some words ) . Jesus spoke an old version of Aramaic most likely a Galilean dialect. so tell me, in what was the new testament originally written? logically (and I know you like all the logical talk here) you would say the language that Jesus and his disciples primarily spoke which was again Aramaic. so here is the thing all of the books that would eventually form the New Testament were written in the Koine Greek language, and later translated into numerous languages. so this Scripture was translated numerous times into many languages over a very long time span (I'm not sure but I thing it took at leas 150 years after Jesus until it was fully written, and maybe even more until it was compiled) so there is a high chance that the final version of the scripture was not to 100% exact and similar to Jesus's spoken words (that originally came from God). so there is a chance that the one or another translator didn't do a perfect job.

      and to that commentary, it just re-said what the exodus 34 was saying in general no more no less, in the end it wasn't a lie, I said " but If you read the commentary you will understand that *it* says he was jealous of the false deities that were worshiped" please pay attention to the "it" it referred to the exodus 34:14 . the commentary served only as summery of the meaning of the exodus that's all, and was never meant to be a sort of proof , though I could easily replace that commentary with my own words without changing my point of view.

      and when you said "Don't you think he knows how to describe himself? Can he not communicate effectively on his own that we as fallible humans have to go back later and try to decide what he meant because we don't like what he actually said?" Yeah that's certainly not the case, God can communicate in any given language you choose but the problem is in the meaning, and if all average humans are able to understand the meaning of every single verse and word He said. I will tell you something I will repeat one of my earlier mentioned points again ( that was in one of my earlier comments), we all can't understand God's words to 100% and interpret them perfectly and error free, this requires people who dedicated their entire life only to God and His words, you can find a very good example of that in the Islamic world, where there is people who study the Quran since a young age and can give a very deep thought provoking interpretations regarding any verse in the Quran , and that resembles in most of the time to the interpretations of other people like them, those people are seen as scientists in the Islamic religion and are consulted by every one who want to know something about Islam. I should also mention that they are few in number but recognized by most Governments in the middle east , by the high religious circles (and no I don't mean extremists) and by a public recognized religious organizations that I can't recall its name (for those who want to know it, that organization is only related to Islam and the Islamic society) and foremost by the people themselves (the Muslims).

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Jmf_ so I will continue my comment.

      if the chances of finding errors of the translation of an 2000 years old scripture are so big, then I won't need to start talking about a 5000 years old scripture. adding to that, it was not a secrete that the Jews during there history mistreated and disbelieved some prophets and central figures like Jesus ( the jews and the rooms were the ones who wanted to cross Jesus, obviously) and many others. if people (Jews) who would not fear God and attend to kill a central figure such as Jesus, then I could easily imagine them manipulating parts of the old scripture for their own greedy goals (or something similar to that, or maybe just wouldn't care if the translations or the rewriting of it isn't exact or accurate) .

      another point is, if the God of the Jews is the same God of the Christians, then why would He send Jesus? think about it and then tell me.

      something else, can you quot for me the other verses where the word Jealous appears ? would greatly appreciated.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      sorry I'm super sleep right now,you know what I said was would greatly appreciate it. good night

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      @McFarland

      "atheists are quite capable of understanding Christianity and how it is practiced and used to justify poor behavior, etc."

      Really? Can you take a moment and show me how the following passages "can be used to justify poor behavior"?

      ““You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have?" (Matthew 5:43-46)

      “But now you must put them all away from you: wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another. Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, humility, mildness, and patience. Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same. But besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union.” - Colossians 3:8,9, 12-14.

      "For “whoever would love life and see good days must guard his tongue from bad and his lips from speaking deception. Let him turn away from what is bad and do what is good; let him seek peace and pursue it." -1 Peter 3:11

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "You don't have an education and you aren't even a good "semi" aspiring writer."

      As if you're a judge of either. What passes as good for you, is neither "good, nor educated". Both are subjective so why would anybody think you're qualified to pass definitive judgment. The quality of the argument between you two is so revealing it's laughable. Your own ignorance on just about every topic seeps through like...some kind of mold. Link is arguing on an entirely different level than you're used to, which comes through in every exchange. Your frustration shows with one insult after another.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "Really? Can you take a moment and show me how the following passages "can be used to justify poor behavior"?"

      They don't. Now, can you take a moment and show me how many Christians actually practice this concept rather than ignore it? It's not easy being a Christian. It's one thing to claim to believe in these teachings, and still another to actually practice them. And the worst violators of these teachings always seem to be the loudest among the "believers".

      But there are always selected teachings that some will point to as you did, and still others that will contradict them drawing from examples out of the Old Testament. Most Christians today love to co-mingle the two books as a hybrid form of Christianity.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Adagio_ " Most Christians today love to co-mingle the two books as a hybrid form of Christianity" that's correct in the end the God of the Jews is also the God of the Christians (and Muslims).

      But this brings the following question, way would God send multiple different religions to us? the answer is in my opinion to complete the unfinished religion ( Judaism), there is also the possibility that God sent Jesus with the new religion ( Christianity) to correct what the Jews possibly manipulated and changed on the old scripture, and so replace it completely . well that would also answer the question I asked JMF earlier.

      By the way, you didn't tell me if what I wrote last time was correct?

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      @Adagio

      “They refuse any form of violence and without rebelling put up with the many trials inflicted on them because of their beliefs . . . How different the world would be if we all woke up one morning firmly decided not to take up arms again, whatever the cost or the reason, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses!” - “Andare Alle Genti”

      “[Jehovah’s Witnesses are] well known as very nice, kind, and meek people who are very easy to deal with, never put any pressure on other people and always seek peace in their relationship with others . . . There are no bribe-takers, drunkards or drug addicts among them, and the reason is very simple: They just try to be guided by their Bible-based convictions in everything they do or say. If all the people in the world at least tried to live according to the Bible the way Jehovah’s Witnesses do, our cruel world would be absolutely different.” - The Moscow Times

      “I am not a Witness. But I am a witness to the fact that the Witnesses witness to efficiency and proper behaviour. . . . If they were the only people in the world, we would not at night have to bolt our doors shut and put on the burglar alarm.” - Journal de Montréal in Canada

      “If all the religious denominations were like Jehovah’s witnesses, we would have no murders, burglaries, delinquencies, prisoners and atomic bombs. Doors would not be locked day in and day out.” - Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe, Former Governor-General of Nigeria

      “I have come to the conclusion that if Jehovah’s Witnesses were the only ones living on the earth, wars would cease to exist, and the only duties of the policemen would be to control traffic and to issue passports.” - “Gyűrű”

      “Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah Witnesses there would be an end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king!”- “The Sacramento Union”

      “The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples . . . All are brothers.” - “The Encyclopedia Canadiana”

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      Amine: Are you talking about this question you had? "another point is, if the God of the Jews is the same God of the Christians, then why would He send Jesus? think about it and then tell me."

      I can't tell you that. I'm not a Christian. I don't believe in the authority of the Bible. You're asking me to explain something that I don't believe is true. My understanding is that Jesus was sent here to fulfill the prophesy. He would absolve us of our sins by dying for us. Then he would be resurrected and those that believed in him would find eternal life, knowing that the impossible was made possible. That's the Cliffs notes version of Christianity. I don't argue with any of the teachings of Jesus. I think that he spoke truth to power. I simply don't buy into the miracles and the rest of the Bible. There's a lot of horrible stuff in it that I find obscene, and if there is a God behind it, then that's not the kind of God I would put my faith in.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 2 years ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      Joseph O Polanco ...Couldn't we say a lot of the same thing about Quakers? In fact...when we look at how much damage and violence has been done in the name of one religion or another, wouldn't we all be better off without religions Period? That's never going to happen, but religions are all authoritarian. Why does anybody need to appeal to some authority in order to live their lives? Are they not capable of governing themselves morally?

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      @Adagio

      "when we look at how much damage and violence has been done in the name of one religion or another, wouldn't we all be better off without religions Period?"

      Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Danton, Lenin, Sanger, Than Shwe, Stalin, Mengele, Mao, Kim Il Sung, Ceausescu, Honecker, Castro, Pol Pot, Broz Tito and Milosevic oppressive, sadistic, democidal atheists who, collectively, murdered ***hundreds of millions*** of helpless men, women and little children?

      "Why does anybody need to appeal to some authority in order to live their lives?"

      Because we're all equal which means that all of our opinions on morality are equally valid. In other words, everyone is right which really means that everyone is wrong.

      "Are they not capable of governing themselves morally?"

      Surely you're not blind to all the war, violence, abuse, strife, discord, animosity, hatred, bigotry, inequality, injustice, abject squalor, preventable disease and depravity that fills newspapers on a daily basis, are you?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Whoa! It's like watching the dogs at Michael Vicks house! Seriously, I only have ONE thing to add:

      @Amine Sehibe - your said, (and I am quoting you word for word) "if you know that people won't like it when you dishonor or disrespect their God (or in an atheist's case mother or father), but still dishonor and disrespect Him, then you're responsible for their reactions."

      and I will answer - in all caps so you can read it and know that I am serious -

      NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR FEELINGS OR "REACTIONS" EXCEPT YOURSELF!

      So, man up and be responsible for your reactions. Quit trying to "blame the other person" for your whining and complaining and victimology.

      And also, just to be clear - I do not go "ballistic" over certain people's comments. I delete them because I DON'T LIKE YOU! I don't want you commenting on my hubs or questions. I don't allow your nonsense on my hubs or questions. And you know this because I delete those comments, so why do you keep coming back to my hubs and questions?

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR FEELINGS OR "REACTIONS" EXCEPT YOURSELF!

      True...but that does not mean YOU have to say things that may or may not get someone upset. Hopefully, you have learned from this that words can hurt--finally, you've had a taste of your own medicine, what you have been guilty of doing to others on here.

      I do not go "ballistic" over certain people's comments.

      Okay...whatever...

      I delete them because I DON'T LIKE YOU! I don't want you commenting on my hubs or questions. I don't allow your nonsense on my hubs or questions.

      No, you also delete them because those opinions differ from yours and contradict the poison you are trying to spread....the comments you keep are those that align with yours...what better way to make yourself feel better than to have a lot of other Christian-bashers bashing along with you---and no one to defend it!

      Stop making such controversial questions--because it offends people, and you should care about that. It is pretty embarrassing for an American to boast about the right to freedom of speech--but then use that freedom to hurt others with her words. Why don't we just say to African Americans that they have no right to be offended when someone calls them the N word--that it is their fault for being offended? That's what you sound like.

    • Link10103 profile image
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      Link10103 2 years ago

      Its also embarrassing for anyone to complain that because their feelings were hurt due to something said, the person who said it should never say anything that will hurt their feelings again. Even more so when that person is an adult. If you can prove what they said is undeniably wrong, doesn't make any sense to be offended by it.

      And...exercising the right of free speech to criticize Christianity for the very terrible things it has endorsed and committed in the past as well as in the present even...is on par with calling a black person the N word?

      I don't know if that's so far above my level of understanding that I just don't get it, which I don't think is likely since I know what a history book is, or just leaps and bounds beyond the realm of stupidity to even want to bother with.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Link, you completely missed the point I was trying to make. It is entirely acceptable to tell someone they've offended you, it's called maturity, and it comes with being an adult.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      "Stop making such controversial questions--because it offends people"

      No point missed, although you did suddenly change your argument.

      You are right though. Its perfectly acceptable to tell someone you have been offended by something they said. Not denying that, just saying that if you can prove them undeniably wrong it doesn't make sense to complain about it.

      But again, its embarrassing to blatantly tell people not to say stuff (that doesn't have roots in enslavement of an entire race, dehumanization, discrimination, and murder, 3 of which continue to this day for black people by the way) that offends others simply to avoid hurting their feelings, especially if you are an adult. Nothing mature about that.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      You still don't get my point.

      its embarrassing to tell people not to say stuff?

      Um...no. Some people need to be told to shut up. If you see a bunch of people saying hurtful things to gay people or black people, just understand that they are using their right to freedom of speech, right? And if you can't prove them wrong...whatever. I'm being sarcastic in those last two sentences, just so you know.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      This is why I think reading comprehension should be a requirement to use the internet...

      " its embarrassing to blatantly tell people not to say stuff (that doesn't have roots in enslavement of an entire race, dehumanization, discrimination, and murder, 3 of which continue to this day for black people by the way)"

      Dehumanization- To deprive of human qualities such as individuality, compassion, or civility.

      Discrimination - (Sociology) unfair treatment of a person, racial group, minority, etc; action based on prejudice.

      And since I have a nagging feeling about it: Prejudice - an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

      You can very easily prove the people who do those things to gay and black people wrong. Should they be offended by what is being said? Very much so, because what's being said isn't attacking their ideas, its the literal act of trying to make them either seem less than human or deny services to them with absolutely no basis for doing so.

      In what way, shape, or form, does saying "Christianity is stupid" or "Christianity has done/continues to do terrible things" or "The biblical god is evil because of those terrible things he did", all of which by the way are prompted from the very book that is basically the foundation of the entire religion, do either of those things I defined for you above?

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Link, honestly, what do you really know of the bible? Have you ever even read it yourself? Or are you just quoting something you read in Titen-Sxull's hubs and taking his words as gospel?

      Any kind of hate speech can be dehumanizing, or discriminating. And as for reading comprehension, please, you don't want to go there with me.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      "No, you also delete them because those opinions differ from yours and contradict the poison you are trying to spread"

      Gee, why don't I just sit back and let you do my thinking for me? In fact, why don't we all just bow to the will of Lybrah, er Stargrrl, the one that gets banned for name-calling. Obviously, you are the supreme commander of the universe.

      Link, I am so sorry you are afflicted with so many hubbers looking out for your immortal soul. But I won't pray for you because poor, pitiful me is an absolute idiotic atheist and I have nothing to pray to - not even a unicorn.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Okay Austinstar--continue to condescend. And I will do your thinking for you, since you're so bad at it.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Austin_ if your words will insult my god or offend my belief then you will deal with my reaction and what I have to say. honestly you can't say s**t about my believe or something that is sacred to me (And it's clearly that those questions from you were in noway meant to be a sort of critical thinking, but just offending and insulting my believe and my God) and expect me to just shut up, and by the way I mostly address your question no more no less and that is called criticizing something, oh yeah I never commented on one of your hubs only on your questions and Maybe a forum.

      Oh you want me to man up and be responsible for my reactions!, why don't you become an adult and be responsible for your statements and propositions. you can criticize things but you can't disrespect or insult my believe and my God and expect me to just shut-up the real world don't work like this sister so you better wake up. and we all know how strong words can be, so let me tell you this the day you take the responsibility for your words I became "responsible for my reactions" does that sound fair??

      Oh you don't like me anymore, that makes me so sad. Please forgive me for not shutting up my mouth while you were insulting and offending my believe and my God. and please forgive me for stating my opinion about your nonsense that had no other purpose than insulting and offending my belief and my God. please forgive me for answering your offending and insulting questions by addressing the topic. please forgive me for not agreeing we you, because we all know how much you like it when people agree with you. and don't hesitate to delete my comments, because every time you ask an insulting question I will be there to challenge your ideas, and something else if you can't deal with critic then don't post your Ideas publicly because IF you an atheist can say every idea is open for criticism ( and I know that all atheists say that well most of them) then my dear you need to know that your ideas are not an exception and so they will face critic , and how I mentioned earlier if you can't deal with critics then don't post you nonsense, because if you even delete all my comments there will be always other theists with enough guts to tell you their opinion, So you better wake up from your sweet dream where everyone agrees with you and pats you on the back.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      Amine--of course she'll continue to delete your comments. It gives her power. She gets the last word. It's like one can say whatever one wants and not give another a chance to refute it. Or maybe it is just because one can't handle the truth. Then complain about why people can't have regular discussions. The point is, she'll continue to insult, and not give you a chance to stand up for yourself. But like you, I will continue to fight the good fight!

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Anime - my belief is that your god sucks a big weenie. Deal with that.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      "Link, honestly, what do you really know of the bible? Have you ever even read it yourself? Or are you just quoting something you read in Titen-Sxull's hubs and taking his words as gospel?"

      Next to nothing except for verses that have been quoted by both atheists and christians alike, which is exactly why I rarely ever deal with bible verses. I dont know jack shit about them and dont particularly care to. What I deal with is the mental logic people try and use to justify the quotes they are pasting. Want an example?

      The other day someone justified the murder of unborn babies, babies, and young children because god knew they were going to to grow up and become evil like their parents before they actually grew up. Apparently god, being all powerful and knowing, had NO CHOICE but to have them murdered.

      No choice? Doesnt even make any sense to use those words when you are talking about an all powerful being. Then when I brought up that god could have either made sure those children werent born or simply ensure they wouldnt become evil, it was said that that would be taking away their free will. Im pretty sure being murdered for something they probably havent even thought of doing yet is the embodiment of taking away free will but thats just me...

      I am going to assume you are asking me this irrelevant question because I said those above arguments against Christianity are from bible verses yes? Whether or not I have read the bible doesnt affect what I said in the slightest. Want to know why? Because the people who are actually using those bible verses probably have half the thing committed to memory because they grew up as Christians. I didnt say that from the stance that I know exactly whats in the bible, I said that from the stance that the majority of atheists I have seen on this site alone know exactly whats in the bible versus the people trying to defend it that dont seem to know anything about it and end up justifying genocide.

      As for hate speech, I seem to understand it differently from you.

      Hate speech - Speech not protected by the First Amendment, because it is intended to foster hatred against individuals or groups based on race, religion, gender, sexual preference, place of national origin, or other improper classification.

      Saying something like gay people are sinful, unnatural, abominations of god etc, with absolutely nothing to back it up, is hate speech.

      Someone calling Christianity evil/immoral etc not only because it actually contains acts inside its own holy book that are those things, but also because of things that happen due to it in the present, is not hate speech. Its a freaking observation. If I called someone evil for shooting up a daycare, is that hate speech? Am I trying to foster hatred towards that person because they are black, white, gay, transgender etc, or is it because they killed a bunch of kids?

      " And as for reading comprehension, please, you don't want to go there with me."

      Actually I do star, since it doesnt seem like you know what you are talking about nor do you seem to understand what others say. If you do actually know, you are perfectly free to demonstrate it and make me look like an idjit. I said elsewhere that it would be a refreshing experience, so go for it. Thats how a discussion works, to prove your point.

      Im getting tired of this macho "dont mess with me" bullshit that seems to be a trend lately. If you have a point, make it, otherwise shut up.

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 2 years ago

      You just said it. Saying anti-Christian things to foster hatred against individuals or groups....

      Hate speech - Speech not protected by the First Amendment, because it is intended to foster hatred against individuals or groups based on race, RELIGION, gender, sexual preference, place of national origin, or other improper classification.

      Doesn't that fall into the definition of hate speech?

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      First off, Christianity isnt a person. Christians are people. Did I say anything about Christians being evil or immoral in my example, or was it Christianity itself being evil or immoral? Christianity could be the most evil religion in the world, but it doesnt mean the people who follow it are evil. Normally it probably would, but seeing as how there are thousands of different denominations of Christianity it would be dishonest to call every single one of them evil or immoral if that were the case.

      Since hate speech specifies an actual person or group of people, and Christianity isnt a person, it already doesnt classify as being hate speech. The main point of what I said in regards to hate speech though, which you either didnt read or didnt understand, was that there are very specific reasons why people talk trash about Christianity. How can something said about a religion be hate speech when its from a direct observation of something bad that happened because of it? Kind of why I bothered with the whole daycare shooter example.

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      Oh how responsible from you is that all what you have to say regarding that. and I thought you like all the honest logical and smart talk. where is your objective critical thinking now. I mean I thought atheists want to reach and know the truth by questioning and criticizing ideas and their logic . hahaha and yet you make that silly and childish statement, how old are you five??

      you are so "I latterly don't know how to describe you" can't even deal with some critic, for real , I mean weren't you the one who said man up bababab earlier, grow up girl.

      or can't you even deal with your own words , yes most of what I said regarding the open critic came from you on other questions or forums (I can't remember),

      I agree with Link and adagio they were not hypocritical when they said every idea is open for critic and they didn't immediately delete my comments when I disagreed with them, and I debated for days here with them and no one stated such a pathetic childish and worthless statement like that one. which means you are such hypocritical person. and debating with a hypocritical child like you won't bring me anything.

      all atheist on this page ( well I'm talking about link adagio and JMF) were at leas honest about their ideas and accepted critic, you clearly have nothing to say about believes then useless worthless nonsense, and clearly can't deal with critic.

      and something else your credibility is like zero by now girl, really no one trusts the content of a hypocritical person like you, absolutely no one.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      When I play with children, I tend to get down on their level.

      Hahahaha, you can't mock my "believes".

    • amine-sehibi profile image

      amine sehibi 2 years ago

      austin_ what for an awful person you are, insulting my God just because you don't like my points of view and my belief, really!!!

    • Austinstar profile image

      Austinstar 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      I didn't insult your god. I said - My belief is that your god is a lying sack of hyena dung. Are you mocking my beliefs?

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      "criticize Christianity for the very terrible things it has endorsed and committed in the past as well as in the present even"

      You're conflating Antichristendom with Christianity.

      Christianity has been nothing but a blessing for mankind.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      Mmkay Joseph.

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      @Link

      I'll put it to you a different way. From the following Christian passages, can you show me precisely how these endorse the terrible things you alluded to earlier?

      ““You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have?" (Matthew 5:43-46)

      “But now you must put them all away from you: wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another. Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, humility, mildness, and patience. Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same. But besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union.” - Colossians 3:8,9, 12-14.

      "For “whoever would love life and see good days must guard his tongue from bad and his lips from speaking deception. Let him turn away from what is bad and do what is good; let him seek peace and pursue it." -1 Peter 3:11

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      Nope. Cant imagine why.

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      @Link

      THAT'S Christianity! :)

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      One of many variants, unless of course you're asserting any other interpretation from yours is wrong, which you might have already done with your Antichristendom comment earlier.

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      @Link

      "One of many variants"

      No such thing since Christ set the precepts and the example to follow. Whatsoever deviates from this archetype is NOT Christianity.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 2 years ago

      Huh, so that actually was what you were saying. Color me surprised Joseph, didnt think you would come right out about it.

    • CatherineGiordano profile image

      Catherine Giordano 16 months ago from Orlando Florida

      Personal attacks are the last refuge of the defeated. If someone calls you a coward (or uses even more insulting words), take a bow, you have won the debate.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 16 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      Link, I'm pretty sure I know who Hubber X is. If it's who I think it is, he was left totally shredded and helpless on the side of the road. Road Kill. He admitted that he had psychological issues and after a number of back and forths, I left him bleeding and waiting for the para-medics to scoop him up and cart him off to the emergency room to stop the bleeding. He claimed I was obsessed with him, and posted blatant lies that he was caught on. Oddly enough he had a bunch of followers that seemed to buy what he was selling. He claimed to have two books in the works, and speaking engagements on the media that were all being lined up. Real crazy shit. Does any of this sound familiar to you?

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 16 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "'m not going to show you anymore comments because it is a circle with you. You cannot admit you are wrong even when it is in front of your face. That is the sign of low intelligence and borderline personality disorder. Go ahead and say "AHA, you can't prove it" but the reality is that you are only good for one thing and that is arguing. You don't have an education and you aren't even a good "semi" aspiring writer."

      What an incredible pile of bile. You present a slew of accusations without citing anything to support what you say. Then you claim that he doesn't have an education, and that he's not even a "good semi aspiring writer". And this coming from a person that demonstrates over and over his own weakness in writing and feels compelled to offer up his own insecurities regarding both his own writing, and education. You're terribly weak WhizBang. There's a gaping hole in your ability to reason. On the other hand, it's amusing to see how much effort you put into being a total ass.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 16 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      "Says the guy who calls everyone stupid and a liar"

      He doesn't call "everyone" stupid and a liar. I think he reserves that for you.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 16 months ago

      Oh I'm aware of that Catherine. There are times where I don't feel like letting it go though when they start lying about me/things in general to play the victim.

      Adagio, pretty sure hubber x was banned around that same time to, which wasn't terribly surprising.

    • Link10103 profile image
      Author

      Link10103 16 months ago

      LOL, Whiz was finally removed/left from HubPages as well...surprising since his account was still account a few months ago.

      Him, and one other active user are the only ones I am willing to do a dance for about leaving/getting banned.

    • adagio4639 profile image

      adagio4639 16 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont

      No kidding. So they're gone. I've been off this for a while, and now I come back to find them gone. Oh well. Too bad, right? hehe.

    • profile image

      TheBizWhiz 12 months ago

      I bet I could bring you back from your self imposed exile! lol You can thank me for your little vacation.

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