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Infinite Regress- Eternal Regress-

Updated on June 28, 2018

Cause and effect

 I discovered this premise of what is commonly refferred to as infinite regress while engaging with two brilliant men that write on hubpages. I wanted to find out how some of the deepest thinkers could arrive on the conclusion that there is no God. I also wanted to challenge the strength of what I believe. So many of us arrived at faith because it is the popular belief among those close to us. Others find themselves searching for purpose and end up choosing Christianity because it is the common belief among the people. Still others because they see themselves as sinful and they have heard that Christ came to save sinners. Those who have really thought through all the possibilities on their way to faith are few by comparison. The two people that I mentioned above are among the few that have really dug into the possible origins of existense and have concluded that God does not exist.

Hopefully this hub will help in the event you come across such people. Not only to protect your faith from their onslaught of logic and reason, but also so you can tear down the stronghold that keeps them prisoner.

Their reasoning goes like this. They assert that for something to exist, it must meet these 2 criteria.

1) It must have shape. Defined boundaries. Like our bodies, or a tree or a rock or water broken down to it's essence since it is land that defines waters contours. They even cite, correctly, that air has a shape in the form of it's molecular structure.

2) It must have location. Simple enough.

They contend that God does not meet these 2 criteria therefore He does not exist. We contend that God trancends this definition of existense, therefore they do not apply to Him.

This arguement satisfies no one. It will not free most of them from unbelief. When we consider that existence does in fact exist. We must ask... How? For us to simply say God created it does not confront the stronghold keeping so many dear souls prisoner. The stronghold is logic and reason. It must be torn down with like weapons. They are indeed mighty through God. Let me explain. With logic and reason alone, we would conclude that it is impossible for any matter to exist, yet it does in fact exist. Logic and reason says that without some "cause" the only thing that could possibly exist is the void of space, or infinite eterrnal nothingness. Makes sense right? So we conclude that matter had to have a cause for being. What caused the existence of matter?" Nothing"? How could "nothing" cause anything? It's like multiplying by zero and expecting that it doesn't always equal zero.So we are left with "Something" caused matter into existence.

Infinite regression

Infinite regression or more accurately put Eternal regression can be stated like this. If "A" exists, there must have been something that caused "A" into existence, let's call it "B". Well where did "B" come from? Let's call it "C" and it goes on and on infinitely... Until an "Uncaused cause" is introduced. This is an existence that has no cause. I call "it" HIM. Eternal Almighty God. The alternitve is an endless array of cause and effect that could not have a beginning point because we are back to where did "C" come from? Let's call it "D". Any other uncaused cause is multiplying by zero again. Eventually you would HAVE TO have an uncaused cause. For matter to be eternal is impossible. For it to never have a beginning, or a point where it didn't exist, flies in the face of reason. For nothingness or the dark void of space to be eternal is one thing. It's nothingness. When you introduce "somethingness" into the equation, it had to come from somewhere.

The Uncaused Cause

Have you ever wondered about the boundary of space? To think that there can be no end to it's vastness? That no matter how fast we travel and for how long, we would never find it's boundary because one doesn't exist. That's how big God is.

Have you ever wondered about how long eternity is? Have you ever considered that eternity past is just as infinite as eternity future? It blows my mind to think in these terms, but that's how long God has existed. NEVER has there been a time when He was not God. Keep adding zeros to any other number of years for all eternity and you will NEVER reach His beginning! Or His end.

Can you imagine the power to create matter from nothing? Or light? Or life? Could an inantimate object do that? Could the Sun cause the atmosphere that protects us from it's unbridled effects? Or give us the air we breathe? Or the spark of life. Or cause complex beings with self awareness and the ability to think and reason to exist? That's how powerful God IS!!!

In the end, the two I mentioned in the beginning of this hub, remain unconvinced. They believe matter is eternal and is ultimately the agent of causation for the existence of life. To me, THAT takes more faith than most Christians have.

logic and reason

THE Uncaused Cause!!!!!

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    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Hi Trish!- So good to see you here! I can sense that you are searching for reason to believe. That would explain your interest in my hubs. Many have found faith while seeking to disprove God. I pray that you will be one of them!

    • Trish_M profile image

      Tricia Mason 

      8 years ago from The English Midlands

      Hello Fred.

      I'll take a look at the hub you mention :)

      As for Jesus, I think that there is a chance that he was real, but there is no proof. The Bible cannot be taken as evidence of itself. The only extra-Biblical contemporary evidence is a debatable mention in Josephus.

      People will kill and die for various beliefs, other than Christianity. I think that the explanation for this will be quite a complex one. I do not know how many martyrs there were who supposedly actually knew Jesus.

      I don't really see the Bible as a reflection of God ~ sorry :)

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Trish- You ask some profound questions! It is refreshing to meet someone who takes these matters seriously enough to really search for answers. Let's start with this. There is enough strong hard evidence to show that Jesus was an actual historical figure. His followers reported on what they seen. If He did not actually die in front of their eyes and rise from the dead also before their eyes, why would each of the 12 excluding John, willingly surrender their lives to a violent death if they weren't reporting the truth? The Bible authenticates itself. In over 2,000 years, no one has been able to prove it as inaccurate. Assume their is in fact a God, would it not make perfect sense that He would reveal Himself? Maybe in a manner that would stand the test of time? Like maybe a book? I wrote a hub that goes into more detail on answering your questions called "Can the Bible be trusted?" I hope it helps.

    • Trish_M profile image

      Tricia Mason 

      8 years ago from The English Midlands

      Hello :)

      "Have you ever wondered about the boundary of space? To think that there can be no end to it's vastness? That no matter how fast we travel and for how long, we would never find it's boundary because one doesn't exist."

      "Have you ever wondered about how long eternity is? Have you ever considered that eternity past is just as infinite as eternity future? It blows my mind to think in these terms .."

      Yes, I have thought a lot about these matters and they are, indeed, mind-blowing. The human brain cannot really grasp these ideas ~ they are so incredible.

      And if God really exists then, yes, God has to be more amazing that these amazing concepts.

      But what I would like to know is why God, if he exists, has to be as described in the Bible?

      There are many apparently miraculous and amazing aspects to life. That is partly why people believe in the supernatural.

      While our universe seems so fantastic and while the origins and meaning of life remain unexplained, I think that there is the possibility of something that we could term 'God' ~ a power or an intelligence. Maybe 'mother nature'. Maybe 'science'. I don't know.

      But why do we have to rely on the papers of an ancient tribe to describe God?

      Why do we have to believe in the Biblical God?

      Why believe that God treated Job so badly and murdered the suckling babies of the Amalekite tribe?

      Why can't we just say that if God exists, then he is beyond our understanding ~ and leave it at that?

      We can still enjoy the wonders of nature and be grateful for our lives, our familes, etc.

    • profile image

      Kirui 

      8 years ago

      Yes! To exist; to have shape and location. This does not help us understand the essence of existence. Those who say this are actually materialistic philosophers. They will mean that waves and consciousness do not exist. And thus not real. But to be real is to actualy occur. By saing waves exists, I mean that it is a phenomenon that actualy occur. Not that it has shape.

      Also donnot worry. That an infinite entity such as as your God cannot exist just because of shape is just a bald assertion. This is not a matter of logics. It is merely an 'object filling' entire space. An imagination that can be done by a kindargattener. The shape argument against God's existence is just a poor one. A child can debunk this.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      katiem- I bet if we did a survey and people would be honest in their answer, we would find that the vast majority of Christians believe what they believe either because they were brought up in it, or because it is the accepted faith of american culture, not because they weighed alternitives and found Christianity to be the most plausible. In the end we will all be together in eternity. But I want to be able to give reason for my faith other than I feel His presence. Most agnostics will need more rationality than that.

      Glad you like this! Always appreciate your visit and feedback!

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      skye- Don't know how I missed your comment, but it has greatly encouraged me today! Hugs galore to you as well dear sister!

    • katiem2 profile image

      Katie McMurray 

      8 years ago from Westerville

      Oh I'm so very proud of you heading face on into this test and opportunity. I asked a person just yesterday why thier religion forbids them to eat dairy and meat within a five hour ( i think five) period of one another.

      They told me they did not know it was just a part of their religion. I for one must know, it amazes me that people do things without truly knowing why!

      Blind faith is good but the truth leads us to that!

      Peace and Love, Katie

    • skye2day profile image

      skye2day 

      8 years ago from Rocky Mountains

      Fred wow what a challenging hub I hope you enjoyed doing it or did you find it frustrating? BOTH? My hats off to you brother. One day they WILL know and go YIKES Every knee will bow and know HE IS LORD. How about prophecy? Most everything has occurred. We are in the generation of the fig tree. Psalm 119 David tells of Christ dying on the cross 1000 years prior to HIM dying on the cross. I have mentioned to atheists well say I am right. Just say i am and you are not. So Jesus returns and you go to the pit of Hell as written because you deny Jesus. At least by inviting HIM into your heart and putting HIM to the test you may not be caught with the pants down.

      I just planted seeds. They were like yeah right. Trust GOD they have thought about it somewhere when things are not peachy keen. Sometime the Holy Spirit will probably touch these men. I hope for their sakes they are not HARDENED they can not consider someone other then genius mind could be right.

      SO who created man an ape who created ape, air??

      We have our work cut out for us. GOD says move on. Not that this was about that but I loved that you took a stand and a stab at it.

      I wonder what the most profound Pastor that teaches truth would say in the Bibical sense. Brains are hard to crack. (JK)

      You done good for JESUS brother. I am honored and proud to know you seed planter you are. HUGs galore.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      James- I am honored that you have been visiting my hubs and leaving insightful comments. I admire you greatly.

      They contend that since matter cannot be destroyed, it stands to reason that it also cannot be created. That it is impossible to create something from nothing. They say you can't take NOTHING which by definition has no length width or height, and turn it into something, which has all three. Also that you can't take something which has length width and height and turn it into nothing. This is how they conclude that matter is eternal and without cause. I agreed that space could easily exist without cause. But without God there could be no uncaused matter. It stretches the limits of thinking to examine these positions.

    • James A Watkins profile image

      James A Watkins 

      8 years ago from Chicago

      The criteria these folks use to undefine God is patently ridiculous. God is not a melon to be inspected at the supermarket. I do appreciate your fine explication of these ideas.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Porshadoxus- AMEN! Our emotions have their genesis from Him. It's part of being made in His image. Thank you for that input!

    • Porshadoxus profile image

      Porshadoxus 

      8 years ago from the straight and narrow way

      I trust that Randall Niles does not 'damage' God by removing His personality. Yes, God is the 'uncaused cause", the 'prime cause', but He also has personality. We would do well to remember that in our discussions with humanists.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Hi Polly- I haven't gotten a chance to watch yet but I plan to as soon as time allows. I will let you know what my take is then. Always happy to see you.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      KMA- Very interesting comment. While what you believe certainly isn't mainstream, who could objectively rule anything out? There are so many religions in the world, organized and not organized. In fact I plan to do a hub soon that will deal with who God is. It will focus on the personal belief of the believer. What we believe is descriptive of who God is to each of us. It will also cover the differenc between who we think God is and who God says He is. I hope I have enough of your interest to recieve another visit from you in the future.

    • kmacox profile image

      kmacox 

      8 years ago from England

      I am not a christian but I have studied the Bible a little bit especially Jesus, so i know only a little,and anyway i do not believe that a lot of knowledge helps in knowing God also i know deep in my self tha i experience God. As for people who are looking to see a God in flesh and bones are i think deuded. Secondly they seem to believe that matter is real we now know from scientific knowledge that what appears to the mind as tangible and solid is actually nothing of the sort quantm physics tells us that the deeper we go into any object that we end up seeing emptiness nothingness, the mind is being fooled into seeing a material world where there is none, the world as we experience is non existent, I think that is why Jesus said : My kingdom is not of this world

      He is teelling us clearly that this world we believe is real is in fact an illusion and that the only reality is the kingdom of God at the back of all things. So do worry about those whose sight is covered for they cannot see. Also if God is Omnipresent which He is the only presence anywhere why do we believe in the presence of a tree, a body, etc surely it does not make sense, it tells us again that what we see as things and people is not the Truth, the mind that cannot see the Truth sees only what it believes is materiality.

    • Pollyannalana profile image

      Pollyannalana 

      8 years ago from US

      Well I watched it and it did let me know they are not all alike. I don't know if I have the story here but I did at one time about a guy a friend of mine married several years ago and he was Arab, but he was stolen away and adopted by an American military couple because he would have been killed at birth I think because his mother was not wed. He was no more Arab than me and he really turned out to be a better person than my friend he married and with things that have gone on it must be really scary for him at times. He certainly is of the Christian faith. He even served in our military. Still I didn't hear them ask about them being able to worship in school while Christians can't, and that was my main question. If you taped and watched it and heard anything about that, let me know. I did have to answer the phone a couple of times while trying to listen.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Your profile picture is beautiful. I have aways said that pretty is as pretty does. You know there are many that are beautiful in appearance that ruin their appearance by what they say and who they are. You are not one of those. You are one that the cover is an accurate expression of the book. I am taping 20/20 because you have made me aware. Thank you!

    • Pollyannalana profile image

      Pollyannalana 

      8 years ago from US

      In case you come back tonight, Islam is suppose to be covered on 20/20 ABC 10PM eastern. Might be interesting.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Dear sweet child polly- I am sorry that your Aunt was on that treadmill. Some of the most noteworthy saints of all time found themselves in the same position. Martin Luther was one of them. He suffered much anxiety over whether he was doing enough. When it comes to the love of God, He doesn't love more the more we do or less the less we do. He loves unconditionally. He understands the weakness of our makeup.

      I agree that people that have decided to live in unbelief have put themselves in great danger. I see them as prisoners of their own reasoning. The thing is, I see that reasoning as something that can in most cases be easily disassembled. I want to reach as many as I can, and if I come accross an atheiest I can boldly ask them to reason why they believe as they do.

      As always I am blessed by your visit and comment!

    • Pollyannalana profile image

      Pollyannalana 

      8 years ago from US

      Oh well you know I get upset, but when it comes to people trying to disprove God there is no arguing, they have a god and he is using them and all we can do is put the truth out there,(plant the seed) God gave all man a choice the same as us and their god has a place for them the same as Ours does for us. Maybe that is where we differ, I won't argue with satan's followers. They made their choice. I would rather try to put some info out there for the ones who say they are saved and don't even know what it is or think they have to be good enough and they have to love devils too. We are all one with the ones pulling the world apart they think. If we are real good maybe we will go to heaven,maybe we won't....people really lack bible knowledge, and I had a sister-in-law that believed that way, if she happened to not ask forgiveness for a sin and then died..straight to hell. She died a few years ago with cancer and there was not more of a saint on this earth. People who don't or won't read need answers.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      coffeesnob- Thank you. I hope you are able to relax and enjoy each new day even as we face the struggles of life. There is comfort and peace in knowing we are never alone in our struggles. We have the eternal Almighty Omniscient Omnipresent God with us!

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Jason- Let me start by saying, that God understands the frailty of men. He wants us to fear Him with a Holy reverence that says You are God and I am not. That being said we have full assurance in His word that He is head over heels in love with you. Page after page, verse after verse declares His love for you. As you witness the cross He bore for you, the depth of His love is revealed.

      It is my feeling that they would welcome debate with any and all comers. It is also my opinion that most would leave the debate defeated. They have made rational thinking their god. And they worship him with great passion and skill. I will see if there is anything on youtube concerning Schroeder, I'm not very familiar with his teachings.

      I'm so glad that we are hubfriends. You bring a different perspective to this and I'm sure many other discussions! Thanks for your well thought out comment!

    • profile image

      coffeesnob 

      8 years ago

      Fred, likewise I an=m as honored. My reading has been behind - hoping life will settle down soon so I can begin to catch up with all my hp friends. Standing firm is not easy at all - and a ready defense is needed to help us stand.. press on..you are shining

      CS

    • Jason R. Manning profile image

      Jason R. Manning 

      8 years ago from Sacramento, California

      Hello Mr. Fred,

      Great topic of conversation and I really enjoy your open dialogue with your viewers. I find that my relationship with God is one of constant challenge. I feel reigned in by my 60/40 rule. My fear of God’s power and knowledge is 60% motivation and his love is my 40% motivation.

      In regard to those 2 parameters you mentioned for disestablishing God, I am surprised they make this so simplistic. When I am feeling really dangerous and want to challenge my faith against God, I reference something from Darwin’s Black Box, written by Michele J. Behe or listen to a talk given by Gerald Schroeder. I am a fact based kind of guy; I really struggle with the details of God’s creation. However, in some reassuring way, there is such depth to our world, our universe and the interaction of all living things with it that I could never by the missing link garbage. It is equally curious that we haven’t found a new biological life form miraculously evolving from 250 proteins sitting in a Petri dish.

      Thank for the new perspective.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      qualify-FINALLY someone not from the choir responds. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your visit and your honest comment. Thank you! The FACT is I can't prove God's existence any more than the brightest intellectual can disprove it. When I visited the hubs of these genius minds that concluded the existence of God was impossible my goal was to force them to admit that their position required faith as well. Their arguement was not conclusive, scientifically or otherwise. My contention was that it took more faith to BELIEVE that life emerged from inantimate objects than it does from presupposing a living creative uncaused cause. That's as far as I can take it. I report, you decide. Did matter exist eternally without cause and life emerge from lifelessness from that lifeless cause, or in the beginning God a living uncaused cause, a creative force creating life cause life to emerge? The reasoning is that matter is eternal (without cause) that brought forth life. Inantimate lifeless matter. Or that a living creative force (without cause) brought forth life from the active life force it (He) possessed. This is the crux of the matter. Which would you REASON to be more logical? Please reply again. Your feedback is the MOST valuable in this discussion as you are not part of the "choir". You are an honest seeker of TRUTH, not one who has already decided for whatever reason those who have decided have decided. As for what caused God please refer to the first video.

    • qualifydisability profile image

      qualifydisability 

      8 years ago from Irvine, CA

      I don't think the "if it has no shape, it doesn't exist" argument makes a lot of sense, and it doesn't really refute God's existence. Democracy exists. The story of "Romeo and Juliet" exists (apart from any written representation), but these things have no shape.

      At the same time, your conclusion that because everything was caused by something, there must be a God just begs the question of what caused God. To say that everything needs a cause except God presupposes your conclusion (that there is a God). By the same token, I could say something like, "Everything needs a cause except a huge space pterodactyl that's infinitely old. Therefore some really old space pterodactyl created everything."

      This isn't to argue for or against God's existence. I just think that it can't be proven that He does exist and has to be accepted on faith (or not, depending on your beliefs).

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Coffeesnob- I am so glad to see you here! I have seen you comment on many hubs. I am honored by your presence and I am about to visit your page. Char M's reply is also for you. But I wanted to thank you seperately. Thank you for your kind words. And for the up rating.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Char- Thank you so much. It was a journey that I would not reccomend for just anybody. I say that because these two callenged me at every point with very compelling arguements. In the end I stood firm in my conviction that God could not be eradicated by any logic. No matter how compelling. The man that offerrED $10,000 to anyone who could prove his conclusion that it is impossible for God to exist wrong, is currently writing a hub to confront my logic. Thanks for your kind words. Keep me in prayer.

    • profile image

      coffeesnob 

      8 years ago

      Excellent defense. I agree with RevLady and 50. There must be a beginning of that which we deny existence. I believe most will not really research - or do the scientifuc approach to discovery, but will argue based on a one-sided knowledge base..Great hub-rated up

    • Char M profile image

      Char M 

      8 years ago from Pacific Coast

      Great hub and comments here too.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Brother Dave- You will be amazed to find out that these two are highly trained scientists. Among the brightest in the world. They have adressed those very questions iin their writings. For instance, air is made up of molecules that doe have distinct form made up of o2 co2 nitrogen molecules etc. As far as light and heat, I started to read their hub that explains their understanding but didn't have time to get far into it. It is very long and takes alot of thought power just to understand. He told me he is now writing a hub that proves that matter must be the un caused cause as a result of my contact with him and the questions I posed. Again, He is brilliant, he uses a false name and I would not be suprised if he is world reknowned in his field. He mentioned several famous people like Steven Hawking and how they refuse to debate him. He even challenged them with a $10,000 offer to the charity of their choosing if they could prove him wrong. I felt like I was in way over my head, but God was not. He said that he sends most Christians who reply to his hubs running with their tails between their legs, but the way I approached him made him see me as a friend. That was God leading me.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      2besure- It is also the SUBSTANCE (for emphasis) of things hoped for. We need not only appeal to emotion in winning the lost. Logic and reason are powerful tools and they are Mighty through God for the pulling down of strongholds.

      Thank you so much for your comment!

    • Dave Mathews profile image

      Dave Mathews 

      8 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

      fred allen: One cannot see the wind but can feel it as it gently caresses or as it gusts and blows.

      One cannot see rain or snow or hail forming in the skies, but can see it as it falls to earth. The sun is 93 million miles away, yet its light and heat travel light-years to warm us and provide light during the day for us to see, as well as all of its other benefits, like aiding plant-life to grow.

      Do air and precipitation, sunlight or heat or energy, have defined boundries or location? I don't think so, unless they wish to call earth's atmosphere a boundry and even then, 93 million miles, is several light-years outside our atmospheric boundry.

      Brother Dave.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      izetti- Thank you for what you said about enjoying my hubs more and more. It means alot to me.

      Those who have built a wall of logic and reason to hide themselves from God can be shown that the same material used to build their wall can be used to tear it down. They are dear souls, many of them are searching for truth. I hope we can bring many into the family of God by showing them that it is not just merely faith, but also logic that can lead a man to the truth.

    • 2besure profile image

      Pamela Lipscomb 

      8 years ago from Charlotte, North Carolina

      They just don't get it because spiritual things are spiritual discerned. Faith needs not proof; it is the evidence of thing not seen.

    • izettl profile image

      Laura Izett-Irwin 

      8 years ago from The Great Northwest

      WONDERFUL HUB! I saw when you first posted this and meant to come read it sooner- now I wish I had. Rev Lady certainly spoke the truth. Well done and the videos, spot on. I don't know what to add to it so I'll just say thank you for putting great perspective on the topic.Another good one Fred. I really enjoy your hubs more and more.

      I think what hurts us most is seeing others who don;t believe and they misunderstand it as we are trying to change them but we are merely wanting for them what we have; the peace, the knowing and, well, God. It's like a paretn wanting the best for their children, we want others to experience what we do. I would consider logic and reasoning like religions of their own and limitless, whereas God is limitless and one will only see that when they believe.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Pilgrimboy- Pastor, I applaud you that you count an athiest among your friends. How can we impact the world if we don't go to them lovingly? Jesus didn't commission us to wait until they come to us. He said to go out to them. When I discovered infinite regression, it made me think deeply about eternity. It was in looking backward to the origin of God that I began to grasp the concept more clearly. There never was a beginning. There will never be an end. That's hard to wrap your mind around. Most just give it casual thought. I meditated on it and let God show me that there is no collection of words to accurately capture the essence of the duration of eternity. This is the One we serve. This is the One who calls us to have an answer in season and out of season. I found out that I really was unprepared. He gave me the answer, and I have shared it here. There are many who think like these two. I want to be able to reach them. The joy of the Lord is a powerful motivator for spurring others to a life of faith. So is logic and reason! Thanks for your take on this. I value your input and I value you!

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      lifegate- This journey was as much for me as anyone. I was challenged to think outside the box. I believe God led me to these men because they were well prepared to defend their position. They did so powerfully. God was able to show me that though I wasn't prepared He was. If this exchange were to have occurred face to face, they would have made me look stupid. Now I am armed and ready. Love that this happened. God is faithful and wants us to be prepared not only to protect ourselves but to tear down stronholds. Thank you for your comment!

    • pilgrimboy profile image

      Regan Clem 

      8 years ago from Ohio

      I was just in a conversation with an atheist friend of mine. He argued that faith is faith. If something needs faith, then it needs total faith, so, he states, their view does not demand more faith. I can concede that.

      I am working on a sermon this week on following Jesus is the best life possible, so your post helped stir my thoughts more on that subject. I'm sure I will transform the sermon to a hub in coming weeks.

      What I am struck with is that if people exclude personal experience from being valid in deciding what is right or not, then you cannot state that following Jesus leads to a better life. But when I look at people who are full of joy, peace, patience, and kindness - people who are what I want to become, they have Jesus in their life. Maybe I run in strange circles, but the life of these Christians validates the message they proclaim.

      Then that is even harsher because I am saying I don't want to be an atheist because I don't want the life they live. I don't know how to make that conclusion kind to my atheist friends. Anyway, I'm rambling. But thanks for your thoughts and the thoughts they caused me to think.

      Grace and peace to you brother.

    • lifegate profile image

      William Kovacic 

      8 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

      Fred, I've come to the conclusion that atheism is also a religion, and I do agree that it takes more faith to follow atheism than to just accept the facts of Christianity. Thanks for taking the time to lovingly approach these two even though they still need Christ.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      Bayoulady- Thank you for the kind words. What I wrote to creativeone is also for you dear lady.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      creativeone- Most people that take a stand on logically reasoning away the existence of God are really searching for someone to give them a plausable reason to actually believe in Him. This is a simple and effective way to get these people to find what they are really after... God and a reason to believe. If after giving objective reason supporting the existence of God they still refuse to accept His reality, then is the time to shake the dust off our feet. Thank you for weighing in. Your support is appreciated. You are appreciated.

    • bayoulady profile image

      bayoulady 

      8 years ago from Northern Louisiana,USA

      Wonderful,fred. It is all about having that first leap of faith of believing that in the beginning God WAS.

      I commend you for what you did. These two and others are intelligent ,yes ....BUT they troll the forums to ridicule diety and do critical hurt and damage new Christians. They are always there.

      As for myself, I'm done with them until they (or if) they show a sincere desire to know God.On other forums, they are nice and helpful. For me,at some point, I remember that Jesus told his disciples that went out without Him to shake the very dust off their shoes and leave if they would not hear and accept the truth.There are too many others out there who want to know.

    • creativeone59 profile image

      benny Faye Douglass 

      8 years ago from Gold Canyon, Arizona

      Thank you fred, for such an awesome and powerful hub, I will not debate my God, whether or not he exist, he exist for me, and that's all that matters to me. I refuse to try and prove his existence to anyone. I know he exist because of the things he has done for me. I have no being without him, he's my all and all. Thank you for sharing this hub. Godspeed. creativeone59

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      cristina- What you quoted is true but if you simply quote scripture to dear lost souls such as these, you will never win them. They will berate you for not using reason in your own words. We are supposed to be able to give a reason for our hope. In season and out of season. This is why I wrote this. If we all only preach to the choir how many souls will we win? Jesus didn't only preach to the choir. Paul didn't only preach to the choir. They went to the highways and the hedges. They encountered opposing belief with an answer. I hope it is helpful, but if it is just preaching to the choir, so be it. I believed that God led me on this journey for a reason. I leave it in His hands. Maybe it was just for me. Thanks for your support.

    • cristina327 profile image

      Cristine Abigail 

      8 years ago from Manila

      Great hub, great reasoning. Let me quote John 1:3;

      "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

      Without God, Nothing will exist here in the universe. We are here because God first existed.

      Thank you for sharing these great thoughts here at Hubpages. Blessings to you.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      johnny- Thank you. I put faith on the line in my research for this. I decided that if God is truth that truth could stand against any and all reason. I still believe that!

    • profile image

      johnnynaakea 

      8 years ago

      Good word and awesome reasoning. Thank you!

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      50- Great points my friend. You may well be right. But the fact is that most athiests have never weighed the compelling reason for their lack of faith. They mostly parrot the views of those close to them. The same is true of most Christians. Most Christians never weighed evidence objectively. They didn't take a scientific approach. They didn't look into other religions objectively, and also include the views of non believers and what reasons they have for non belief, and conclude that Christianity was the most viable. They simply adopted the beliefs of those close to them. What I am saying in this hub is that God is not so weak that He cannot stand up in the face of OBJECTIVE critical analysis. I hope I have given ammunition to those who come into contact with dear souls who are blinded by what they contend is reason. You are a fine man and a trusted friend. Your insight is valid and thank you for sharing it. Also want to show gratitude for your service to this great nation. You are a credit to humanity.

    • 50 Caliber profile image

      50 Caliber 

      8 years ago from Arizona

      Fred, I find this interesting. I'm going with Rev Lady, they thought he was and tried to find reason to dismiss him. Let me take those two with helmet recorders and kick their butts out of a good aircraft at 35,000 feet with an oxygen bottle and radio controlled parachute opener. Then let them fall 20,000 feet watching the ground grow larger and larger, then we'll see if the call on mommy or God to save them. OR the same two guys and drop them in a hot fox hole with machine gun fire and it raining mortars and hand grenades and again listen to who they call for. It's a simple test and they may have little faith, but I'll bet they call on God. Their are few atheists in life and death situations when one is given time to think as their possible end comes upon them. Most atheists I crossed in the Marine Corps had recognized and then refuted God, I remember one in particular who almost missed the bus back to the land of the living, and he cried out for us to pray for him and we gladly did, holding his hand as we hauled him to a MASH unit with a tourniquet wrapped around his left arm above the elbow with a dangling mass of gore where his forearm used to be. He thought he was going to miss his next birthday and so did we, but I don't remember anyone holding his inflammatory remarks against him. He lived and we all were glad, he was a miracle given grace by God, and we all knew it could be upon us that fast. 50

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      polly- I feel the same way you do except for one thing. I also get put out with people that simply parrot the faith of others without risking the validity of that faith without exploring other options. To simply believe something on the basis of this is what others close to us believe really makes no rational sense.These two didn't solicit me. In a sense I soliceted them to find out what made them tick. While there are passoinate non believers that want ther position to be the accepted one and will stop at nothing to solicit others to their way of thinking, these are not of that cloth. They simply state that it is foolish to accept something just because someone else says it's true. They encourage others to question everything and if it is true it will stand the test. I don't think there are many among the family of believers that have truly put their faith to the test. They simply parrot the masses. In the end, I believe that Jesus is Lord, but not because I just believed what others told me, I weighed the evidence. It is the most important question facing mankind. Does God really exist? Can you prove it? I was brought on a journey that took me to a place where I laid faith on the line in the name of reason. Conclusion is explained in my hub. I reasoned that while I cannot conclusively prove God any more than they could disprove Him, the evidence of reason is overwhelmingly on the side of intelligent design and therefore God. Faith in God is far more plausible than faith in eternal matter and that being the causeless cause responsible for the existence of life. I knew I would be preaching to the choir since nearly all my hub friends are like minded in their view. What I was trying to do is give ammunition to our family to tear down the strong holds of so called logic and reason to stop the devil from blinding these dearly loved searching unconvinced souls. Thanks for reading and commenting and for your support Polly.

    • Pollyannalana profile image

      Pollyannalana 

      8 years ago from US

      I really get put out with people who want to go out of their way to prove that there is no God, for someone who does not exist, He sure is on a lot of unbeliever's minds. Anyone that looks at all the millions of things that proves we didn't just happen. I don't think a day goes by I don't look around me at God's beauty in wonder, and thankfulness.

    • fred allen profile imageAUTHOR

      fred allen 

      8 years ago from Myrtle Beach SC

      That's just it. One of them grew up in church. He later began to question his beliefs. He searched for differing views as to the origin of existence. His ability to present his case is very strong. I would guess his IQ is easilt above 160, same for his friend. I found myself in over my head with them more than once. That's why I wrote this. If any of our friends were confonted with such reasoning unprepared it could easily cause some to lose faith. This same logical reasoning converted this man to now refer to himself as a realist. It was an encounter I will never forget and I am a better man for it. God gave me the reasoning with which to retain a stronger faith but in the end I think I was the only one who benefitted as they both remained unchanged in their beliefs. If you would like to read the exchanges and the viewpoints they expressed, send me a message and I will direct you. I don't wish to be responsible for those with weaker faith to read such powerful refutes to faith. In the end my conclusion is here for all to read. As you can see, my faith remains intact and in fact stronger than ever. Thank you for reading and for your kind comment.

    • RevLady profile image

      RevLady 

      8 years ago from Lantana, Florida

      "They contend that God does not meet these 2 criteria therefore He does not exist."

      It seems to me that man must assume there IS a God in order to deny His existence.

      Enjoyable read. Thanks for sharing FA.

      Forever His,

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