Introduction and FAQ

Jay,

You neglected to answer the question. I cannot because I have no time. I gave you a chance to discuss and you did not take it. Further comments from you shall be deleted.

Jay,

"Christ used the whips in the temple as a demonstration, not to harm anyone. Go take the Use of Force courses and you may better understand this. Also take courses in, how to deal with the mentally ill. I wrote an article by that title."

They have a Concordance? A pastor? A believer? How does that course help me with scripture? From what you've said it contradicts the scriptures, both Old and New. Why take it then?

"There is only One God, the root of all things and people, Jesus was the Vine and We the branches. I am against stories which depict God as Violent, Jealous, Vengeful, etc. God is Good and not as depicted in the OT (although there is some good in it)."

So you are against Christ, who believed in this God and referenced these same stories of him killing? Either you're all for Christ who believed these stories and called them good, or you can't agree with him 100% as you claim to because he contradicts your teachings. Which one is it? Which of those is your stance? You can't say you don't believe in the Old Testament and believe in Christ, who believed in the Old Testament. Is Christ now wrong? Is he false? Answer.

"Before we go further, please get some training in The Use of Force and How to Deal with the Mentally Ill."

Can't do that. No time in my schedule. Besides, I already know about dealing with mentally ill people due to working with them in the past. I also avoid violence as much as possible. Stop avoiding the questions and just answer them all plainly in your next comment. If not any further comments from you shall be deleted. Stop avoiding the topic and just answer.

So what about when he used the whips on those men in the temple?

So happiness is only positive? Happiness can never be negative? What if I'm happy about something bad? I am being patient. Answer the questions in it's entirety in one comment on your own time. I can wait.

You are the one who doesn't understand that human emotions, no matter what they are, aren't evil. How we use them is what determines it.

I realize he was against the rabbis, not because they followed the OT God, but because they claimed to and didn't. They mixed strict obedience with vain traditions rather than accepting the grace and forgiveness that was there since the beginning. They decided to make their own law. You forget, Christ believed in the same God they did. All throughout your articles you claim to be against the OT. What does Christ say? He quoted the OT many times. So which is it? Do you believe in both testaments, or has Christ contradicted himself because he quoted the same book you say is false?

Charlie,

I read them last night. And the only thing I agree with him on is that peace is good. Everything else contradicts the Most Highs Bible. He uses Christ's words to "debunk" the Old Testament, which makes no sense since he worshipped and was sent by that same being. It's not like he believes the law is done away with as you do. He thinks the Old Testament AS A WHOLE is fake but the new is somehow still relevant without the old and is true. That makes no sense. If he doesn't answer what I said here I think I have nothing to say here.

Jay,

I agree, using the least amount of force is best if possible. But we can't act as if it is always possible.

You still have yet to answer a couple of things.

1. You quoted Christ to promote zero violence and harm. Yet he advocated for it in certain situations. So either you would have to advocate for what he said 100%, or he cannot be what you think of him. Which one is it? I can bring up verses right now where Christ was okay with violence in the Old and New Testament.

You also avoided my question from earlier. You said in a previous comment "Negative human emotions (anger, vengeance, jealousy) are the sin we are trying to end." May I ask, is happiness a positive emotion? What about sadness? What do you say?

Jay,

"I am a retired Peace Officer and have taught the "Use of Force" training to many officers. After many years in the business I have come to the conclusion that "Deadly Force" is Not needed. Please read the article on "Use of Force" as it explains the ladder of Force and the incremental use of Force. Study martial arts or take a self defense class. There are always alternatives to killing people, you just have to learn what they are."

I will, but you have yet to answer my question. What is the alternative for this situation? You're talking about martial arts, but earlier you said to do no harm. Are you now advocating harm as defense? Or have I misunderstood you this whole time? And I want talking about just killing. I'm saying violence is sometimes the answer. Not always, and not always the first choice. But sometimes it is.

"As to God killing people, I know the old stories of God doing this and I renounce them. The stories themselves depict God as a killer which is False. Conceive of a better God."

Who is better than the true one above all? And the reason I said this is because you quoted Christ to promote zero violence and harm. Yet he advocated for it in certain situations. So either you would have to advocate for what he said 100%, or he cannot be what you think of him.

You also avoided my question from earlier. You said in a previous comment "Negative human emotions (anger, vengeance, jealousy) are the sin we are trying to end." May I ask, is happiness a positive emotion? What about sadness? What do you say?

Charlie,

I appreciate your prayers and concern. I will.keep you in prayers as.well. Peace and blessings, my friend.

Jay,

I will post either a comment on there or a response article.

You forget that he is also the same person who worshiped the god of the Old Testament who has killed millions of people. And as you'll see in my previous comment to Charlie forgiveness and non condemnation existed in the Old Testament as well. And Christ wasn't always peaceful.

John 2:13-17

13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

If peace is always possible and no violence whatsoever, what is your solution to that situation I presented earlier? Your child is kidnapped and their life is on the line and they did nothing to deserve it. What's more important? Saving her or sparing the one who did this from any harm even though he will not repent/give her back in this context?

Hi Tony,

"I was raised an Seventh-day Adventist, which if you remove the writings of E.G. White is just a hop, skip and a small jump from Hebraic Roots Movement."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but SDAs only keep Sabbath and some keep dietary laws correct? That's still pretty far off from HRM, but I just want to be sure.

"No true Christian, Sabbath keeper or not, will assert that worshiping another God or idols are now condoned by God, and they will all not agree that killing, stealing, adultery, etc. are right in the eyes of God."

Absolutely true.

"Sp, let me ask you one thing, for I believe that it is the core of both SDA and HRM beliefs. Is it your belief that seventh day Sabbath keeping is what differentiates a "true" follower of Christ from those who merely "say" that they follow Christ, but follow the ways of the world and/or the beast?"

That depends on what you mean by that. Will Sabbath adherance be a sign of it? Yes. Is it always no. Hindus believe murder is wrong. But they worship false deities. Faith must come before works, and we must not be partially obedient, which you can argue isn't pbedience at all (James 2 10).

"Peace."

You too.

Charlie,

"Kevin, first let me apologize for the attitude in my last comments. I really thought you were not sincere in your pursuit of righteousness but the Spirit of God has shown me otherwise and that I must treat you more respectfully. Please forgive me."

I forgive you. No bad blood between us, friend.

"There is no place in this age of Christ for the law of Moses. The law was given only to Israel and only for a season. It is judgment with no forgiveness but only condemnation. That is why no one could be saved by the law. It was their fruit of rejecting God that gave them the law."

I agree. Keeping the law does not save. The same way not murdering, stealing, etc does not save yuou. But is it the right thing to do? Yes. That's the point. It is the faith and grace that does it. I believe keeping the Torah is only a result of it. I also think forgiveness was possible in the Old Testament. The concept of forgiveness comes into full vision under the Mosaic regime. For instance, in the early portion of Leviticus, in connection with various sacrifices, Moses records that these offerings were a “sweet savor” to the Lord (see Lev. 1:9; 2:2; 3:5, 16).In Leviticus 4:31, the nature of that “sweet savor” is defined:

“the priest shall burn [the sacrifice] upon the altar for a sweet savor unto Jehovah; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven” (emphasis added)

I completely agree with him having all authority. And I will definetely look at that article when I ge tthe chance.

"In the garden that God made for man there was no separation between God and Man. God said everything He made was GOOD and He approved it. The relationship with man that was approved by God was God living on earth with man, Adams disobedience in the garden caused separation, death. Man continues to reject God throughout the ages of man. But as man got more evil and rebellious the earth became so polluted that God could not stay there and He moved into heaven, not because he wanted to but because of the corruption of man."

I agree. A lot of skeptics (and some Christians but they're not true believers) think God is some evil dictator who just abandoned Adam and Eve. How can he dwell in a heart that does not serve him? That's like trying to keep a flame going in water. Not that the Most High would be extinguished, but that these two things are polar opposites and cannot mix. 2 Corinthians 16 4 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

"This life, what is left of it has two purposes. One reason Jesus came is to bring us life, that is those that will do all He requires to become disciples of Christ, sons of God, regain the eternal life to live on the new earth with God for eternity. The other is to separate them from the others that will be removed from the earth as was done in the days of Noah. God covenanted not to destroy man with a flood ever again but that He will destroy ALL unrighteousness from the earth that His sons may inherit a pure undefiled Earth. But because it being defiled so badly He cannot life on it He will then give a a new heaven and earth, then move onto it with His throne and live among His sons forever, which was His original intention but Adam defiled it. In other words it is all about God and the man He created to be restored to their original relationship, but without the rebellious ones that have defiled all of God's creation. That's it."

We do indeed have a righteous Father.

"The law was was part of the age of the Israelites and was for that age only, just as the flood was for the age of Noah to cleanse the earth and give man another chance at redemption. All past ages are lessons for us to learn about God and His desired relationship with man and have NO PLACE IN THIS AGE, other than to warn us of what not to do as all other ages were a failure and could not do what Jesus came and did and that is why He came, was mercilessly killed, was resurrected and stands in God's stead as our only redeemer and the entry to the eternal kingdom of God."

I do not believe that the righteousness of those ages has passed. You might say, "What about the sacrifices?" That didn't change. Christ was the sacrifice. And righteousness by faith has always been more important than sacrifice.

1 Samuel 15 22 "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

In Babylon the Jews could not sacrifice. But Daniel was declared righteous (Ezekiel 14 14).

"That is everything in a nutshell. If you can see this you can become a son of God, if not then it is not possible because the salvation (return of eternal life) is only available through Jesus Christ and NOTHING ELSE can have any place in the redemption. I pray you will let the real Holy Spirit of God show you all truth in this matter as He alone can do. Do NOT BE DECEIVED MY BELOVED are his words to you."

I agree. Nothing else. The law of the Most High is not something seperate from Christ, who obeyed the law. They are not two seperate things. They are one. I will pray for you too, friend.

Jay,

"We talking about one human being killing or harming another and that is Not right."

Let's say you had to save your child. Your kid has done nothing wrong deserving of punishment yet someone takes them up and their life is at stake. All other choices failed. You wouldn't save your kid by harming the assailant?

"It is right only to a Religious Terrorist. I renounce Terrorism and all writings which support it."

Again, you're equating the emotion and action itself with being wrong. They're not. They're neutral.

"Negative human emotions (anger, vengeance, jealousy) are the sin we are trying to end."

May I ask, is happiness a positive emotion? What about sadness? What do you say?

Charlie,

"First Let's look at your response , so you want to pick nits , ok."

It's not so much that I want to nitpick. It's that you posted long comments, so it is helpful towardfs both you and any other readers to see what I'm responding too.

"Yes I should have said Israel, but you knew what I meant."

You can't say what I know. And even if that's the case I was just clarifying for those who read it and might become confused on the meanings of Jew and Israelite.

"Second I John 3:4 has nothing to do with the torah or any other part of the law it is speaking in regard to Jesus and His (which is God's) Holy Spirit which was not available under your torah/"

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the LAW: for sin is the transgression of the LAW." Ket's look at the word used here. Strong's Concordance. 458. anomia: lawlessness. The Father who sent his son has only had one law, which is the Torah. Not "your Torah," but his alone. Now for a second witness here is the definition of this in the Strong's Hebrew Lexicon: 458. anomia, an-om-ee'-ah; from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of the law or (gen.) wickedness: --- iniquity X transgress (ion of) the law, unrighteousness. Now note that both lexicons it states that both of these words come from the Greek word #459. This word means "To be destitute or in violation of the Mosaic or Jewish Law" (See Thayer's and Strong's Lexicons). Now the word #458 is translated "transgression of the Law" in the King James version of 1 john 3 4. Here again, Paul equates this word (#458) Lawless with SIN. Romans 4:7 - "Blessed [are those] whose Lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;" Now here is an example where this word is used when translating the Old Testament. Hebr 1:9 - You have loved righteousness and hated Lawlessness (#458); Therefore Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You. With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

"Third Luke 16:17 There is ONLY one correct understanding. At that time they are still under the law, still in the age of the Israelites until Jesus fulfilled the law by His death and resurrection and ended that age. The age of Christ, which is the end of the age of Israel does not begin until Luke 23:46 or 24:5 depending on how you see it. You clearly listen to apostate men and do not understand the scriptures."

Matthew 5 17 says he fulfilled the law. Fulfill it, or make it known? "Pleroo", a Greek word being incorrectly translated as fulfilled in Matthew 5 17. The word means to fill make full/complete. That is what the Savior did. He made the law known fully against the Pharisees who enforced their own traditions. And I do my own studying. The only time I bring someone else's words in si if I study it for myself. I don't just take it. As a matter of fact there's been tons of times I denied someone's words, including a Torah keeper who believed in Christ's word.

"Fourth- a smoke screen as I would expect from you You said you do not eat pork, because of the law."

Yes, I did. What's your point? And how is what I said a smoke screen?

"fifth Paul was an Israelite and HE COMPLETELY DENIED anything to do with the Law when He came to Christ after his eyes were opened. Another of your smoke screens."

You say he completely denied it. Let's look at some verses where he quotes the law itself.

Romans 2 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Romans 10 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Leviticus 18 5 'So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD.

Romans 13 9 10 Commandments. Ecodus 20 13, Leviticus 19 8, Deuteronomy 5 7 the 10 Commandments.

Galatians 5 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Leviticus 19 18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Here Paul twice states that we learn what sin is from the Law. This backs up the statement in 1John 3:4 that Sin is transgression of the Law.

Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the Law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7 - What shall we say then? [Is] the Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the Law had said, "You shall not covet."

Here is a key scripture proving that Paul believed that thru faith we do not make the Law void, but rather we establish the Law (To cause or make to stand, #2476).

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Paul taught the disciples not to let anyone judge them for observing the Law

Colo 2:16-17 - So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of the Messiah.

(Source: Eliyah)

Hi Jay,

I disagree. Emotions like jealousy, anger, hatred are not bad themselves. They're just commonly misplaced. The High is jealous of people for serving other deities because he alone is the true one. It is right to be angry at unrighteousness, and abhorring evil is good.

And harming and killing itself is not bad. Just misplaced. There's a time for these things (Ecclesiastes 3 3). I'd post more, but despite my disagreements with Charlie I think he got it right on this one in his comment towards you.

Hi Charlie,

I have a few disagreements with your interpretation of the scripture.

"it is so sad that so many are being deceived by this garbage, The age of the Isreailite (jews) ended at the crucifiction and is not to be revived . It was a temporary measure and was to last from Moses to John. It was for the jews ONLY. Any one that believes and easp teaches this foolishness IS TOTALLY DECEIVED AND HAS BEEN SENT A STRONG DELUSION BY GOD SO THEY CANNOT SEE TRUTH. To teach this or believe it you are crucifying Christ all over and making a mockery of the sacrifice of His life ."

For starters, Jews are not the only Israelites. The word Jew (Yehudi/Yehudim) comes from Judah (Yehudah), only one of the sons of Jacob, the ancestor of the 12 Tribes who was called Israel. The only other time people are called Jews in scripture is after the 12 Tribes split into two kingdoms, Southern Kingdom of Judah, and Northern Kingdom of Israel. Being a Jew does not mean you come from any of the tribes. It means you come from Judah or from one of the few tribes still allied with Judah. Paul was a Jew, but by lineage he was a Benjamite and Benjamin was allied with Judah. The Jews of the New Testament were the Southern Kingdom, not all of Yisrael. If that were so, that contradicts Hebrews 8 8 and the New Testament in general which says the new covenant is to reunite the 12 Tribes (Jeremiah 31 31-34), so Jew cannot mean all of Israel.

Secondly, let's see what it means to sacrifice Christ all over again.

Hebrews 6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

No mention of law adherance is here. It refers to falling away from the Most High. How do we do that? By sin, which according to 1 John 3 4 is transgressing the Torah.

"Luke 16:15-17"

There are a couple of ways to understand this passage without doing violence to the Torah. First, it could be understood that the Savior is saying that the Law and the Prophets were the only Scriptures in existence up to the time that John came on the scene. The implication is that more would soon come (ibid.). A second way to view this passage is that he is stating that the Torah and the Prophets prophesied or pointed to the time when John would come thus ushering in the Savior at which time there would be a change in the focus of the message of YHVH’s servants. Instead of just preaching about the Torah or that the Messiah is coming, now the message of “repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (see Matt 3:2; 4:17) would be preached. This is a more expansive message that focuses now more on the salvation message centered on the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua. This message also includes obedience to the Torah (e.g. Yeshua said, “If you love me, keep my Torah commandments” in John 14:15, also 1 John 2:2–6). (Source: https://hoshanarabbah.org/blog/2017/02/09/law-prop...

"This scripture describes all who teach your lies. 1 Tim 4:1-4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth."

There are two things wrong here. 1. "3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." It says that those who pushged these false doctrines pushed the forbiding of marriage and abstaining from sanctified foods. When have I forbidden anyone to marry? And this verse is not about eating unclean meats. At the time that Paul wrote this, there were various different cults that people put their faith in and many people placed their faith is multiple gods. As a matter of fact, the only group of people who were monotheist were the Jewish people.

Paul was Jewish, a Pharisee and from the tribe of Benjamin. He studied under Gamaliel, one of the greatest Rabbis of his time. Paul would have had the Torah (First five books of the Bible) memorized. So I think we can agree that the Faith Paul is speaking of is the Jewish Faith of the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. This faith was centered around the observance of God's instructions for righteousness found in the Torah. When Paul speaks of people departing the faith, he is speaking of the faith that he himself believes in, which was worshiping God as instructed in the Torah.

Then he brings up people who are teaching others to abstain from marriage and certain "foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving." First, since Paul's faith was as a Jew, for him, food would have been defined by Leviticus 11. That is where God tells us what creatures He created for us to be food. In verse 4 when Paul says that everything created by God is good and nothing should be refused he understands this and no doubt Timothy would have understood this to be in accordance with what they both considered food, based on Leviticus 11.

The context of why Paul wrote what he wrote is that there were some people teaching others that they could not get married or eat certain foods (keep in mind that their definition of food was based on Lev. 11, not on what is considered food today). Paul is encouraging Timothy to not let false teachers affect his faith, not making a statement that anything and everything is considered food. (Source: Torah Babies)

"Jesus Christ possesses ALL AUTHORITY IN THIS AGE. There is no place in this age for clergy or he law of Moses that was for Jews only. This age allows whosoeverwill to enter the Kingdom of God IF THEY ARE willing to pay the price. In light of these scriptures I rebuke you and command yo to stop deceiving those looking or scripture truth. You are pushing abominable lies."

I agree. He has all authority. And I obey his authority by preaching the Torah he followed perfectly, that he did not abolish (Matthew 5 17), and taught to others (Mat 23:1-3, Mat 5:19)

To the rest, I agree. Christ is above all creation. But I do want to point out one thing the verses said.

Titus 2:11-15

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might REDEEM US FROM EVERY LAWLESS DEED and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.