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Religion- Peeking through the veil

Updated on September 7, 2015
mridulrai profile image

An avid reader, crazy about knowledge. Believes each day has something new to teach. Passionate collector of facts of the world and beyond.

A scene from a bollywood movie Oh My God!:

News Anchor in a live television show in the movie: What do you think is the role of religion in a man's life?

Kanji Bhai(real name of actor- Paresh Rawal): Only two. Either it makes a man powerless, or it makes him a terrorist.

Oh My God interview scene
Oh My God interview scene

Why do we need religion?

I loved it when mom told me she loved me no matter what. I'd do all kinds of mischief and dad would kick my ass but mommy; She's always been there for me. She's the best and I had made up my mind that nobody loves me as much as mom.

But then she told me that God loves me more.
"Really? Will he forgive me every single time as many times as you do?" I asked.
"Maybe. Depends on how bad you've been." She replied.
"If I'm very bad will he punish me?" I inquired.
"He might." She said
"Will you?" I was curious.
"I couldn't even if I wanted to. You see mommy is not perfect like God. She has flaws. She cannot make harsh decisions when you are involved, her brain isn't wired that way.
But that doesn't mean you can get away with misconduct ok? God is watching all the time and he will love you only if you're a good boy."

Lesson I should have learnt: Be a good boy.
Lesson I learnt: Mommy wins.

Why exactly do we need religion? What is the point of rituals that involve mental exhaustion, physical torment and animal brutality? How is sitting all day at church going to be more productive than spending time with the person or working toward the goal that you are praying for? What has your one month fasting got you apart from a weak mind and weaker body? Climbing hills to pour liters of milk on idols; Why not give a little to the homeless beggar who spent the night on your porch? You kicked him away cussing and swearing and then went to the Ganges to wash away your 'sins'. That should help.

Religious people:

  • Help others to get into god's good books. No matter how much they deny, during any kind act, it is always at the back of their mind.
  • Spend hours praying. Only if they used it for some productive work, they wouldn't even have to pray and their prayers would be answered.
  • CANNOT acknowledge that their God Might be nothing more than their imagination. Because then, their whole life would become a lie. All that time spent praying and talking to their all powerful friend would seem irrational and stupid. Make them look like fools. It is so important to make sense of their past that they are willing to overlook all logic that could eventually make their future a better place to be in.
  • Look at me with pity in their eyes. Because I will rot in hell. They are not sympathetic though. Because "I deserve it. I deserve to be taught a lesson for this kind of blasphemy." It gives them satisfaction to know that I shall be skinned and sliced and cobbled and torn apart for eternity.
  • Do not realise that we have a medical term for people with similar thoughts; Psychopaths.
  • Might some day put a bullet in my chest because I wrote this. They did so to a couple of bloggers from Bangladesh.
  • Never ask questions. They know the answers. The ones they don't, they dare not question because god works in mysterious ways.

One Rule. SURVIVAL.

When the chips are down and there's nowhere to go, the most basic instinct takes over. It doesn't matter what you're up against, doesn't matter the price you have to pay, you will do all you can to survive. It is in your DNA.

Tell me something who do you think wrote the religious books? Are you certain it is who you've been told it is?
Or is it a valid point to consider that maybe, just maybe the books were written to instill fear in masses and in the process create blind followers? People who won't question, who will merely do what they are told because is "The Almighty's will." We are afraid of what we do not understand. What is more difficult to understand than an all powerful force who sees everything, knows everything and does nothing?

Be honest.

  • Will you not steal an empty grocery store if you haven't eaten shit in two days?
  • If you're stuck inside a cave for 3 days straight without food and water will you care about haram and halal when I bring you chicken dumplings?
  • Do you apologise every time you slam your meaty hand on an unfortunate mosquito that was just trying to feed?
  • Will you not, if you had the chance, kill the guy who has been paid to shoot you the moment he finds you?

Question everything my friend. An inquiring mind is the single most fantastic gift you can give yourself. If you are satisfied with the answer, great. Never settle before that. There will be times when you won't get an answer. Big deal. Accept that you don't know. Not only will that make you humble, it will make you a happier person because you have been honest with yourself.

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    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      2 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Lawrence: May I know what is "a philosophical argument that can be supported to a large degree by scientific observation"? I would like to know how science supports it.

      Also, by drifting apart I meant that the celestial bodies are moving away. That doesn't mean the universe at large is expanding(consider a two balls in a field moving at opposite directions).

      And about- "Good luck with that as even Steven Hawking says he can't do that!" Of course he can't. If he could we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we? :)

      What I meant to say is that since it cannot be proved that someone pulled a lever it cannot be implied that a lever was needed.

      Integrater: Hahaha you just want to sit back and enjoy huh? You're the smartest of us.

    • integrater profile image

      Certified Noob 

      2 years ago

      Big bang is just another theory like may other theories floating around.

      We don't seem to know much of the universe, we just pretend we know a lot.

      about the God question - Where is my Popkorn ?

      continue plz.

    • lawrence01 profile image

      Lawrence Hebb 

      3 years ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

      Mridulrai

      Thank you for your reply. My intention wasn't to shift any 'burden of proof' but to reply to a question that was asked "where does God live?"

      My reply was using a philosophical argument that can be supported to a large degree by scientific observation. I understood the reply to challenge both tge argument (fair enough) and the scientific observation. If you challenge these things then you need to provide the proof that they are false!

      By the how can something that is 'drifting apart' not be expanding?

      If you are going to make the claims that a 'switch' isn't needed to 'kick start' the universe tgen you need to provide evidence because observed science says it/he is needed!

      Good luck with that as even Steven Hawking says he can't do that!

      Lawrence

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Lawrence: The universe at large isn't expanding, celestial bodies are merely drifting apart. This doesn't disprove that the universe is finite, I just thought I'd let you know. :)

      And I have no problem with you loving Jesus because you are a good person. My problem is you are trying to shift the burden of proof upon atheists which my friend you simply cannot do. If you claim to believe in an entity that nobody has ever seen and has given absolutely no signs of existence, then it is you who has to bear the burden of valid proof. You cannot tell me that because the universe began, someone had to pull the switch. How do you know a switch was at all required? Prove it. After you've done that, you proceed to proving his identity and his place of dwelling. And then you tell me who created that someone. :)

    • lawrence01 profile image

      Lawrence Hebb 

      3 years ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

      Edwin Hubble showed that our universe is expanding. From that science has realized that the thoughts they held so dear (that the universe was infinite) was wrong as they could work back to a point when it began!

      Thats why people no longer accept tge idea of an infinite universe, because physics and astronomy say it isn't

      I will concede that the Kalam argument is philosophical but no matter what you say the problem is still there for tge atheist!

      By the way, yes I am a 'Theist' who loves Jesus

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Lawrence: Umm, no, it isn't my problem. In fact, your argument, is your problem more than anybody else's. You see you are telling me that somebody created the universe(based on the hypothesis that if something is there, it must have been created) but if I ask you who created that somebody, which I will, you'll tell me that entity was always there. That he had no beginning and that he shall never perish. You will tell me he is more powerful than anything we have ever seen. All that, about someone you have never seen and in all probability, never will. How does that make sense? Yet you accept it.

      What really grinds my gear is that people can't believe the same thing about the universe instead. It is endless(even light hasn't reached its shores), it is timeless(time as WE know it, cannot have existed before THIS Universe), it is phenomenally mighty(a tiny asteroid is capable of annihilating a planet such as ours) and it is unimaginably beautiful. Why can't universe be your god? It goddamn gave you a place to live in and never asked anything in return while an imaginary being who has absolutely no credibility as of yet and has NO prospect of visiting a world he doesn't even live in, requires money and offerings to thrive in a place that already has more than enough problems to take care of.

    • lawrence01 profile image

      Lawrence Hebb 

      3 years ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

      By the way even if we accept you second idea the same problem exists, there has to be a 'trigger' or someone/thing that caused the change. The previous universe would have existed in some form of time dimension but the agent of change remains outside it!

    • lawrence01 profile image

      Lawrence Hebb 

      3 years ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

      Mridurai

      You still have the same problem as there has to be a cause no matter how many 'big bang' and big collapses you have!

      Present theory states that time itself is part of the fourth dimension and is itself finite.

      If you keep having the big bang and big collapse that means that there was a first one (you can't get round it!) and if tgere was a first then something/one had to be there at the first!

      As for the other idea there is no evidence for it and as far as I'm aware no one has hypothesised it!

      Sir Fred Hulme did propose an oscillating universe (big bands and collapses) but you still have the same problem.

      Lawrence

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      lawrence said: "The Kalam argument (originally an Islamic argument) says that the universe had a beginning but whatever or whoever created it had to be there at the beginning, he/it also has to be seperate from it yet able to interact with it but he himself has to be uncreated and always there!

      Hope that helps."

      I'm sorry but that doesn't help. You are giving the classic theistic explanation that if something has been created, there has to be a creator. What if before the Big Bang there was a Big Collapse? What if this is merely a chain that continues; every big bang is followed by a big collapse and so on and so forth? What if these big bangs happen "all the time"(all the time in cosmic terms) and we are just part of one? OR.. Here's another interesting possibility- What if before the universe took its present state, it had been a completely different kind of place with dimensions too alien for us to comprehend?

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      mridulrai

      Thank you for your apology. I will gladly accept it. It takes a big person to be able to admit when they are wrong. Kudos to you.

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      Austin said; "Now will you answer my question? Where do YOU personally think that god lives?"

      I already did. Read through the comments.

    • lawrence01 profile image

      Lawrence Hebb 

      3 years ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

      The Kalam argument (originally an Islamic argument) says that the universe had a beginning but whatever or whoever created it had to be there at the beginning, he/it also has to be seperate from it yet able to interact with it but he himself has to be uncreated and always there!

      Hope that helps

      Lawrence

    • lawrence01 profile image

      Lawrence Hebb 

      3 years ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

      Austinstar

      There are four dimensions we can see and at least six that exist at a subatomic level. This is why we have the fields of quantum physics and mechanics.

      The latest theories are that space is actually curved and may appear infinite but is actually finite. Measured space is 140 billion light years across (as far as we know) which is a problem for the big bang theory (I've got a hub on the distant starlight problem). So space is not 'infinite'as such because it is within the known dimensions.

      Lawrence

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Wild Bill: You really do believe I meant to attack you. Bill I wasn't trying to demean you or something. It is impressive that you said "Anymore personal attacks? I can take it. Don't worry. I have learned to turn the other cheek." It doesn't matter if it is due to the teachings of your imaginary friend, what matters is that you are a good person because of it. Anything like that is worth holding on to. I cannot respect your religion but I respect you for using it to be a nice fellow. And I'm sorry if my comments seemed rude.

      Lawrence: I agree with Austinstar. What she means is that length depth and height(the 3 known dimensions) are immaterial in space. You cannot measure what doesn't end(I mean it has to end somewhere but so far it hasn't been possible to conceive such a notion. Our brains are not wired to contemplate that which could possibly be the edge of our universe. Even light has covered only a limited little area of the whole universe and it has been travelling since 13.8 billion years.) So if you are saying god exists outside the universe, is it not more plausible that he may be busy with his own life doing whatever the likes of him do, in a different reality which we just cannot comprehend, THAN, that he somehow sees everything and knows everything and controls ALL THINGS in an INFINITE realm where he doesn't even live?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Lawrence- there are no dimensions. Space is infinite.

    • lawrence01 profile image

      Lawrence Hebb 

      3 years ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

      Austinstar

      A very quick answer to that is using the Kalam argument for God he has to exist outside the known dimensions of our universe!

      Lawrence

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      @wild bill - I am certified as a Medical Laboratory Scientist with a specialty in immunohematology.

      Now will you answer my question? Where do YOU personally think that god lives?

    • lawrence01 profile image

      Lawrence Hebb 

      3 years ago from Hamilton, New Zealand

      I enjoyed this hub. I don't really agree with a lot of the points but I do agree that the best gift we have is an enquiring mind!

      By the way some of the questions you ask are related to where does justice end and mercy begin?

      Lawrence

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      mridulrai said: "If you find aggravation s0mewhere in there, maybe you were looking for it so hard you convinced yourself it was there."

      When people are debating a topic and they have resort to personal attacks, that tends to be aggravation showing.

      Then you said: "Also, there is a grammatical mistake in this section of your comment.

      "Making a personal attack on me even though I have remained cordial in this conversation show your aggravation/anger in not being able to express your ideas clearly."

      I'm guessing Jesus wasn't an english teacher. What was Jesus's first language? Because if it wasn't english you'll forgive him right? Since your spanish isn't good."

      First you say I am slow an now you are criticizing my grammar? lol

      If you are referring to my leaving an S out of a word, then that is called a typo. We all make them. Even you have all throughout these comments, but I wouldn't lower myself to criticize you for it because I know I type fast and miss some things, so that would be hypocritical of me to accuse you of that.

      Anymore personal attacks? I can take it. Don't worry. I have learned to turn the other cheek thanks to the teachings of Jesus.

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      austinstar said: "I was DIRECTLY asking YOU - "Where does god live?" Sorry, I didn't put it in simpler terms."

      You don't need to ask me in simpler terms. I understood everything that was said, perhaps more than anyone here.

      You didn't ask me one question directly. Your exact words were: "What can be learned of a god or gods? They are totally invisible and inscrutable. Mostly becase they don't exist. Where do they even live?"

      You asked two questions. I made a general statement that both could PERHAPS be answered in church. What I said cannot be refuted because religion is about God and church is where religion is practiced. Just in case I didn't make that simple enough here is the definition of religion:

      re·li·gion

      rəˈlijən/

      noun

      the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

      "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"

      synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More

      a particular system of faith and worship.

      plural noun: religions

      "the world's great religions"

      And here is the definition of church:

      church

      CHərCH/Submit

      noun

      1.

      a building used for public Christian worship.

      "they came to church with me"

      synonyms: place of worship, house of God, house of worship;"

      Hence, if you want to learn about God, go to a church.

      Btw, what kind of scientist are you?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      @Wild Bill - You said, "when Austin had questions".

      The thing is that I don't have questions that can be answered in a church. I've gone to church. I've read the bible and a few other "holy" books.

      I was DIRECTLY asking YOU - "Where does god live?" Sorry, I didn't put it in simpler terms.

      mridulrai - I am a woman and a scientist. And I am an atheist. Sorry, you don't have atheist/women/scientists where you are. They may be hiding, though :-)

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Wild Bill: Like I said, my comment points out your assumptions throughout this conversation. If you find aggravation s0mewhere in there, maybe you were looking for it so hard you convinced yourself it was there.

      Exactly how you have convinced yourself there was a Jesus Christ. Who taught stuff.

      Also, there is a grammatical mistake in this section of your comment.

      "Making a personal attack on me even though I have remained cordial in this conversation show your aggravation/anger in not being able to express your ideas clearly."

      I'm guessing Jesus wasn't an english teacher. What was Jesus's first language? Because if it wasn't english you'll forgive him right? Since your spanish isn't good.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      I agree that to some people, the last say is the 'win'.

      But to me, any debate comes to a point where both parties are reduced to their bare arguments, bereft of their pretensions, and any unbiased party can come to their conclusions on whose stands the test of logic and reason.

      In our exchanges, among other things, you have said you believe in flying donkeys because you've been told to, and that, to you, a crane is a building.

      Those are bare arguments.

      Whether I 'won' or you did is a conclusion I leave to other readers.

      I do hope, though, that you will find the courage to question things that, until now, you have been discouraged from, even if it is only in private, considering the dangers you might face from your community.

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      mridulrai

      I do believe you are angry. Even though dialogue on a computer inhibits empathy, a few of the things you said led me to see your anger;

      you said: "Your problem with spanish might be because you are slow, it could also be genetic so don't beat yourself up."

      Making a personal attack on me even though I have remained cordial in this conversation show your aggravation/anger in not being able to express your ideas clearly.

      This next long comment shows more aggravation:

      "Wild Bill: I am insecure. I am jumping to conclusions. I am copying and pasting. I have nothing to say because you "gotcha" me. I am playing the race card because you are so smart. I didn't let your comment show. I no english. You know where god lives. You don't know where god lives. Church. Questions. Answers. Possibly. Spanish. Hence proved, GOD.

      You have transformed me into a believer with your list of assumptions that are all true. Your unquestionable irrefutable arguments have stumped me. I am now walking towards the white bearded man sitting on the rainbow with a basketball hoop over his head. I am going to call him Wild Fiddy Dolla Bill. He looks gangsta and shit."

      You clearly have some unresolved issues and anger towards religion that you are taking out on me. I have not made any concrete claims. I don't preach, nor try to convert. Unlike you and some other atheists, I actually think each person should live their own life and follow their own heart in regards to religion/spirituality. I don't concern myself with dogma because I am focused on living a good life using the teachings of Jesus. Whatever happens after this life happens.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex

      In a debate or discussion, sometimes he who has the last say wins. You win.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      That doesn't excuse the fact that the voice is telling you flying donkeys do not exist and cranes are not building, however nicely you want to dress it up.

      That voice is the true, honest voice of reason telling you to rid yourself of the 'Devil's' tricks.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      Austinstar, studies in neuroscience suggests that the brain does have a mind of its own.

      http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110831/full/477023...

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Abdus, you are speaking nonsense again. Brains don't have a separate mind of their own. That's just a cliche that is repeated over and over by those that don't use their brains.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex

      When you recognise that there is a voice in your head that pretends to be you and never stops speaking, you are awakening out of your unconscious mode and entering the conscious state. When you notice that voice you realize that who you are is not the voice – the thinker – but the one who is aware of it. The brain has a mind of its own.

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Wild Bill: My previous comment merely listed out your assumptions throughout this conversation. Which brings me to your latest assumption. Why do you think I am angry? I'll tell you. Because you don't. This is a trite attempt at proving that I wasn't thinking straight as I was upset and in the process rationalise the arguments you have presented. Which might have worked if you actually came up with an argument.

      Anyhoo, you have fun.

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      mridulrai,

      My initial comment was to give my opinion about why I think church/religion is a good place to get answers, though not the only way (*disclaimer*). Now you are criticizing me for not being able to prove that God exists. That is a classic example of moving the goal post. The fact remains that I cannot prove God exists, nor do I have a need to prove God exist. I have faith, you don't. That is ok. I have never tried to convert anyone (*disclaimer* when Austin had questions, I merely suggested the best place to find them was in church. I never said anyone was going to hell for not going to church). There is no need to be angry with me. I hope you find peace my friend.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      Like I said, there are 2 diametrically opposite types of truth seekers.

      I am not here to 'convince' anyone, I will just always point out holes in logic and leaps of faith into fantasy when I see them.

      From the exchange we have had to this point, you should already be reconsidering what you thought you knew.

      Good luck on the journey of discovery, and remember, that voice deep inside telling you a long-held belief is untrue is the actual voice of 'God'.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex truth seekers have no agenda, and if you can convince me of a new idea that is better than what I hold to be true, then, I am willing to explore new possibilities.

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Wild Bill: I am insecure. I am jumping to conclusions. I am copying and pasting. I have nothing to say because you "gotcha" me. I am playing the race card because you are so smart. I didn't let your comment show. I no english. You know where god lives. You don't know where god lives. Church. Questions. Answers. Possibly. Spanish. Hence proved, GOD.

      You have transformed me into a believer with your list of assumptions that are all true. Your unquestionable irrefutable arguments have stumped me. I am now walking towards the white bearded man sitting on the rainbow with a basketball hoop over his head. I am going to call him Wild Fiddy Dolla Bill. He looks gangsta and shit.

      Terrex: Hahaha I do, I do owe you. *brofistbump*

      Austinstar: You're a woman? Dayum! I wish we had a few like yourself in my country too. What really gets me is the irony, you know.. When I was in school, almost 90% of the girls in my class scored better than me at both science and mathematics. None of them ended up questioning religion.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      You misunderstand - there is no side-stepping, there is only a false claim that someone knows how the universe began. My question was which one of the 2 questioner types you are - the true questioner who will reject fairy tales and accept fact, or the false questioner who asks but is unprepared to be enlightened with the truth.

      You can believe a story that your family has passed own to you, but that does not make it true.

      You can reject the science that proves that story untrue, but it remains a fact.

      You can persist in thinking Creationism, flying donkeys and cranes=buildings are facts, but that says more about a culture of repression than anything else.

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      mridulrai said: "Your problem with spanish might be because you are slow, it could also be genetic so don't beat yourself up. Or do. I couldn't care less. :)"

      So now you are going the ad hominem route. Gotcha. Your anger is getting the best of you.

      You said: "If you are going to bring up race and ethnicity to make a case of english language misinterpretation against a person who has been grammatically impeccable since he was in 4th standard, I refuse to grace you with any further conversation."

      Why would you take offense to me saying that English is not your first language? Why bring up the race card? We are all different. We can only have one first language (normally). You might mention this because of some insecurity I suspect.

      As for you not gracing me with further conversation; I knew it was over when you were cutting and pasting parts of conversations out of context to try to make your point. If you don't like being wrong, then feel free not to respond. Perhaps you won't even allow this comment to show.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Abdus - Now you are getting somewhere! God is definitely a "concept". But concepts are not "things". They don't physically exist except in the mind. If you subscribe to Noetics, then you can say that a thought IS an actual thing. But is it? No one knows.

      An atom is an actual thing. It has mass+energy+space and it can be seen.

      God is a concept. It only exists as a thought. It does not have mass+energy+space. If it did, then you could PROVE that God sits on a throne above the 7th layer of heaven above Mecca.

      But since God is only a concept, you cannot prove this.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Austinstar you wrote a very interesting article. I also somewhat agree with this:

      "...Life, the universe, and everything was NOT created. It has always existed, it exists now, and it always will...."

      That thing that has always existed, and exists now and will always exists is what the religionists call God. What is God? Is open to interpretation.

      @Terrex I feel as though you have sidestepped my question and are instead asking me why I asked you a question?

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      Because we do not currently know the answer to a question does not mean that we should accept anything willy-nilly. (Again, are you asking qustions to actually obtain answers?)

      If you are now considering the actual science behind the Big Bang, why do you then discard science when it comes to flying donkeys?

      Islam claims to have the answer to Creation - but does not proffer a shred of evidence to back it up.

      Why, then, would you consider the Quranic version true when science completely contradicts it?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Abdus -Here we go again - In order to understand that the universe is infinite and NEVER had a "beginning", you must first understand the concept of infinity.

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Where-doe...

      Why do you assume that the universe was created by a WHO? Why don't you wonder WHAT created the universe? And AGAIN, you will never be able to answer the question of "Who or What created your gods?" Mostly, because the "gods" do not exist except in the minds of men. They are not real things. They are just your imagination.

      Life, the universe, and everything was NOT created. It has always existed, it exists now, and it always will....

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex that makes perfect sense and I agree that it is ok to change opinions based on new information.

      Let me ask you a logical question regarding creation and the Big Bang. How did something smaller than this dot [.] create everything that you can see including the planets and stars and ultimately you and I? As you explain it, think about the detail.

      Lastly, ponder this; the universe was once an empty room, someone needed to create the room in order to house the planets and stars, because in the beginning there was not even space. These things do not just happen unless someone or something designs and programmes.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      That's correct.

      But there is a difference between those who claim to question but are only looking for confirmation of what they have already accepted, and the true questioners who assess each bit of information they obtain and have the courage to acknowledge that what they accepted previously was incorrect.

      If, at every opportunity to accept reason as the answer to your questions, you rejected it in favor of previously-held misconceptions, you are the former.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex

      People question when their looking for answers.

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Searching...

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      The whole point of questioning is to then choose the path of logic.

      If you questioned, then choose self-delusion over reason, then you do your own intelligence a great dis-service.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex the Quran encourages questioning:

      "So show Me what those other than Him have created?" Q31:11

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      I would say that ignorance is the tool of the devil.

      Every time you shut that voice (like I said, probably from 'God') that tells you you are simply accepting tales because it is scary to question them, you are playing into the hands of the 'Devil'.

      Flying donkeys, cranes being considered buildings etc. are all signs of that self-delusion. Break free, my friend, no matter who comfortable the status quo may seem.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      Let me expalin:

      What is the literacy rate of Muslims living in the Muslim world? Low.

      How many Muslims do you think have actually read or understand our philosophy? Not Many.

      Is it a priority for Muslims living in poverty to read Islamic books? No.

      Hence; Islam is what you find within books; Muslims are what you find within graves.

      When the Muslim World was cultivated did we read and write literature? Yes.

      Where are all the great Muslim thinkers? Dead.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Sheesh, that makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever!

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @AustinStar - Islam is what you find within books; Muslims are what you find within graves.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Abdus, it is time for you to question Islam. It is a restrictive and destructive religion and people all over the world are leaving it behind.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Terrex, I agree. I would imagine that millions of Muslims would love to leave their religion behind. Obviously, they flee muslim countries by the millions. That many people are suffering under "Islamic and Sharia" law is probably the biggest reason for their Exodus.

      Christianity had their Exodus, now it is time for Muslims to leave their restrictive and destructive religion behind too.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex the battle with the devil only ends at death. At death; Satan will have one last attempt to digress and convince my mind that Allah does not exist. God willing I will not be fooled by his evil whisperings; and will die as the Muslim that I came.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      It seems from your answers that peer pressure is the only thing that is actually keeping you from leaving your religion.

      I understand it can be scary, particularly when you see how muslims who leave Islam are persecuted, assaulted and murdered, often by their own family.

      If nothing else, I think this exchange has laid bare that a religious person who is a thinker doesn't actually believe what they proclaim to, but rather suppresses that voice inside them (that probably comes from 'God') that says "You're deluding yourself, my friend."

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      It implies no such thing. If someone says they know nothing, then perhaps they actually DO know what nothing means. Again you are "assuming" things. Assumptions are the same thing as guesses.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      I respect the one that dares to say "I don't know" or considers he may be wrong. Socrates said: "I know that I know nothing" which implies he knew something.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      I don't know, once you start questioning things about religion, you will soon find that there are no "true" answers. Pray all you want. Unless you are schizophrenic, no one or nothing will answer.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @AustinStar - Pray to the Lord to bring or keeps us on the straight path.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Abdus - I see that you are making progress toward atheism! Good for you.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      "Because it's what your parents and the people around you just accept without question?"...

      Sometimes differences in opinion are so diverse that two or more opinions can no longer be complimentary. Such differences in opinion in some instances lead to the creation of new religions. Irreconcilable differences in opinion are to be understood, respected and tolerated but as an individual standing from within my own faith and belonging to a particular group or sect of my own, I must and can only adopt and follow the opinion of the group or sect I belong to because the view of the other groups and sects conflict with my own creed.

      The opinion of the group or sect I follow is my own prerogative or is determined by the group or sect I am born into. When faced with irreconcilable opinions and having both sincerely and independently researched and investigated the matter for myself, I say what I think to be true. If however I still remain unsure of the truth, then, I adopt the majority opinion. Alternativly; I remain silent when faced with irreconcilable truths and opinions whilst accepting I do not know the truth.

      In all cases I put my trust and faith in Allah seeking His guidance towards the truth.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      See, I already predicted how you choose:

      "Because it's what your parents and the people around you just accept without question?"

      The question arises then: :How long will this unthinking acceptance of failed logic continue?

      Hasn't God given you enough signs already to turn away from the path of ignorance of fact?

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      "So you also believe in the thetans and Xulu of Scientology?" I dont know what this is, therefore I can not comment.

      "How do you diffrentiate between 'I accept' illogical and 'That's rubbish' illogical?" The 'I accept illogical' is that which is found in the Abrahamic and other world religions that concur with Islamic scripture. The 'that's rubbish illogical' is those things that do not concur with Islamic scripture.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      So you also believe in the thetans and Xulu of Scientology?

      You believe God sent them that story, so it's true?

      I'll ask again:

      How do you diffrentiate between 'I accept' illogical and 'That's rubbish' illogical?

      Because it's what your parents and the people around you just accept without question?

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex I believe every group of people were sent messengers, but over-time the belief in one God became lost or corrupt. Today, as was in the past, Humans possess the ability to achieve intellectual awakening.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Mridulrai, sorry if I butcher your name. I'm a woman, by the way. And I understand why wild bill can't communicate properly. He doesn't have good reading and comprehension skills. It's a failing of the religious. They try to comprehend the bible. Also impossible.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @ mridulrai, what's being the score of this Hub is. You owses us.

      @abdus

      By that answer, do you also believe in the thetans and Xulu of Scientology, since they, too, are illogical to any rational person?

      How do you diffrentiate between 'I accept' illogical and 'That's rubbish' illogical?

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Wild Bill: Dude I have been speaking and writing fluent english since I was 10 years old. Your problem with spanish might be because you are slow, it could also be genetic so don't beat yourself up. Or do. I couldn't care less. :)

      If you are going to bring up race and ethnicity to make a case of english language misinterpretation against a person who has been grammatically impeccable since he was in 4th standard, I refuse to grace you with any further conversation.

      Not to mention you never even answered Austin's question. Why does Austin say that you didn't? Maybe he doesn't understand english.

      Austinstar: Is your first language Sanskrit? you no know what Wald Bill say trying? You go. You go Austin you sanskrit hippie you lost get.

      Abdus and Terrex: Please don't stop this is way too much fun lol!

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex religious belief is not always logical. Some things are illogical whereas other things are logical. Moses (as) parting the Red Sea is illogical. Moses (as) turning his stick into a snake is illogical. It's these illogical things that makes religion strange, yet fascinating. Do you not think that I know that these things are illogical? They are miracles that sceptics like you witnessed in order to believe.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Abdus, pretty much everything you say sounds illogical. When you believe in flying donkeys, it prety much means you'll believe in all the nonsense written in ancient books.

      And I don't think I am a god. I don't believe in a god or gods. What part of me being an atheist can't you understand?

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      I really don't care what religion anyone is or is not.

      All I care about is that when two people/sides talk, they stick to actual facts and reason and not construct alternate realities whenever they are shown gaping holes in their logic.

      If we could all just promise to do this for one week, all our debates would be so much more constructive and leave us much more enlightened.

      If your demand for a debate is that I already accept a slew of things which are proven untrue, of course we will end up with illogical conclusions.

      By that clause, every Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, Scientologist would 'prove' that he/she is correct. Would you accept that clause before a conversation with them?

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex much of what I say only becomes logical when you have the belief in God, Scripture, Prophets, Angels, Afterlife and Fate. Without the belief in the above, much of what I say will sound illogical to you.

      @AustinStar read through some of my other Hubs that do not mention religion, and you will find that we are not really that different. The difference is, I believe in a Lord whereas you think you are a god.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Abdus seems to be bought and paid for by the quran. Its no better than being a Jesus freak.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      Of course. I was going by your stated belief in the Quran's flying donkey (buraq) while you reject centaurs and uncicorns, your claim that the crane that killed over 100 people in Mecca's mosque is a 'building', and now this.

      If you can claim that as logical, anything can be claimed as logical, even Scientology.

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      I can answer it. It is just that I had to spend the better part of my time defending myself.

      God lives within all of us. If we choose to seek him, so be it. A church is not needed, but being educated by someone that knows more than us helps. This was my original point.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      Fair enough. But don't say 'you don't know where God lives' because 'you don't believe where God lives'.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      "The throne of god is located above a meteorite in a Middle Eastern town? Yes."

      Sums it all up for every logical person out there...

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Abdus, as an atheist, I do not believe in death, so sorry, won't be meeting you ever.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @AustinStar

      Can you go there? Yes; after you die I'll meet you there.

      Can you take a photo of it? Nope. Telescopes can not see further than what God decrees.

      Can you find it with GPS? In order to find it with GPS, one will first need to send satellites there.

      What is the throne made of? Not sure. Some have said it was made from a red ruby; others say the Throne is a circular Heaven that encompasses the world on all sides.

      What are these "7" heavens? Not sure. Maybe they are dimensions?

      And seriously? The throne of god is located above a meteorite in a Middle Eastern town? Yes.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Hahaha, science and religion are not compatible. They are two very different things. It's like comparing geology to the mysticism of the meteor he refers to.

      It's just a space rock!

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      OH NO!! He's gonna give you the 'Seven layers of heaven in Science' response!

      Since prevention is better than cure:

      http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina40712.htm

      Thanks me.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      abdus - Oh really? Can you go there? Can you take a photo of it? Can you find it with GPS? What is the throne made of?

      What are these "7" heavens?

      And seriously? The throne of god is located above a meteorite in a Middle Eastern town?

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @AustinStar His Throne is above the 7 Heavens and is located above the Kabah in Makkah.

      @Terrex can God move? I'm not sure. Ask Him.

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      Pretty ostentatious God who needs a throne.

      He 'lives' there? Can he move?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Abdus - Where is this throne located?

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      God lives on His Throne and communicates to you via your soul.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Wild Bill,

      Yet you never admit that the question actually is, "Where does god live"?

      You cannot answer this question, you can only keep repeating, ad nauseum, that answers to my questions "might" be found in church.

      That is no answer at all and please don't repeat it AGAIN! We get it. You don't know the answer and you never will. Going to church or to any other place is not going to help.

      Either you know where god lives, or you don't.

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      The problem with your analogy is that you are making it out like the main focus on the discussion between Austin and I is about where God physically is, which it is not. The main focus is where can questions about God possibly be answered; I said church might be a good place to start. I didn't even say it was the only place.

      I mean, no one here seems to have a problem with my wording except you, so maybe you should just let it go. Perhaps English isn't your first language and you are having some problems comprehending. I have the same problem with Spanish, so don't let it get you down.

      As for you saying this: "Then I asked you the next obvious question. And this was your reply AFTER I asked you where else can god be found."

      I have not been ignoring this question. I have just found myself having to spend too much time explaining that I did not say God could only be found in a church. I feel that we must take baby steps before we can proceed.

      So do you understand that I have in no way insinuated that God can only be found in church? If so, then I will answer your question about where God can be found.

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Wild Bill: I am ignoring the context on purpose? Consider this:

      [Austinstar: Can you tell me where Adam lives?

      Bill: Have you been to Susie's house? She loves Adam and Adam loves her. This is a question that could "POSSIBLY" be answered in Susie's place(as Adam is believed to frequently visit it from the clouds).]

      [Wild Bill to Mridul: I did not say, nor even insinuate that Adam can only be found in Susie's place. Got it Mridul?]

      Yes, got it. I got it Bill. Then I asked you the next obvious question. And this was your reply AFTER I asked you where else can god be found. I am sorry but you are the one ignoring that which you cannot answer. Which is ok. Because nobody can answer it. The only difference is, some of us have made peace with not knowing while others not unlike you have pledged allegiance to and have taken it upon yourself to wave the imaginary banner of an idol that in all probabilities does not even exist.

      HSchnieder: I see you belong to my "religion". Let us build tax-free estates out of other peoples' money and bomb and rape our way to heaven ;)

    • profile image

      Howard Schneider 

      3 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey

      Very well said, Mridul. The inquiring mind and search for knowledge is the greatest gift in the world. It is my religion. Always searching for life's and our world's answers. Great Hub.

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      Btw,

      Just in case you are confused, and/or too tired to actually scroll up and read, here is the entire conversation:

      "@austinstar said: "What can be learned of a god or gods? They are totally invisible and inscrutable. Mostly becase they don't exist. Where do they even live?"

      Do you go to church? If not, then you made my point. These are questions that could possibly be answered in church. You never know until you go."

      I actually made reference to QUESTIONS being POSSIBLY answered in church. I did not say, nor even insinuate that God can only be found in church. Got it?

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      lol, why would I get upset with that? You only took one of the several questions asked. That is obvious cherry picking.

      The point that you are not grasping (or ignoring on purpose), is that I was referring to 'questions' could be answered in church. I think maybe you are clinging to your argument because you can't admit that you are wrong. That doesn't bother me because I run across many like that on the internet.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 

      3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Just in case anyone is wondering, Einstein was an atheist agnostic. A lot of religious people quote Einstein, but they take his words completely out of context.

      But since when do religious people ever notice facts?

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Wild Bill: Keywords we are looking at? Right. Let's look at a key sentence.

      Austinstar: Where does god even live?

      You: Do you go to church? If not you've made my point.

      But I won't dwell on this I don't want to upset you.

      However, if you're asserting that god can be found at other places too, can you name a few? Apart from man made monuments that cost millions and serve one purpose. Take the credit for a doctor's or soldier's work.

      Abdussalaam: You're saying god picks those he likes.

      And abandons the rest? I know humans that do better out of courtesy. And what is god trying to pull anyway, picking the most suitable ingredients? Does he want a Masterjerk apron from Ramsay?

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Mridulrai

      God seems to pick whom He likes. Some of the greatest scientists of early Islam had both science and religion. In recent times Albert Einstein said: "Religion without Science is blind; Science without Religion is lame"

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      mridulrai

      You seem to be reaching for straws here, but the reality is that if you take into context all of my comments what I said there doesn't contradict anything else. The key word is 'could'.

      Let me show you: "These are questions that could possibly be answered in church. You never know until you go."

      Question could be answered in church.

      For some reason, you took understood that I said God can only be found in church, but in reality I am saying that questions can be answered in church. No where have I contradicted myself.

      Thank you for your interest. I hope we can move on from this and continue the stimulating discussion.

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Agreed.

      What's fascinating is god hardly picks science lovers or scientists when he decides who needs guidance.

      But yea granted, we do look uglier than Arts majors and are socially awkward compared to commerce graduates.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @mridulrai I somewhat agree with your statement: "...Its called faith, you won't understand..."

      Belief in God, Angels, Scripture, Prophets, Afterlife and Destiny are all matters of faith. Only when God is at the helm of ones faith, does the possibility of Angels, Scripture, Prophets, Afterlife and Destiny become both plausible and real. Without God at the helm of ones faith, the other articles of faith are difficult to see. Those that are God-conscious can never make those that lack consciousness see, because the matter is between an individual and his Lord.

      "You cannot guide whom you like, but [it is] God [Who] guides whomever He will, and He knows best those who will be guided." [Quran 28:56]

    • mridulrai profile imageAUTHOR

      Mridul Rai 

      3 years ago from Kolkata, India

      Wild Bill said:

      "I never said one had to go to church to meet God. I never said everyone had to go to church to learn about God. I said a good reason for someone to go was to LEARN about God. I don't know how you would think that I mooted my point."

      You had specifically said in your previous comment:

      "austinstar said: "What can be learned of a god or gods? They are totally invisible and inscrutable. Mostly becase they don't exist. Where do they even live?"

      Do you go to church? If not, then you made my point. These are questions that could possibly be answered in church. You never know until you go."

      I rest my case.

      P.S.(I just cannot not say this)I know this may be hard for you to take because you wanted to make a lot of sense and ended up making none, which is not your fault. Religion and logic never go hand in hand.

      If you had answered Austinstar in like 'Its called faith, you won't understand' or some similar comment involving faith, you'd win. Because you would be right. We don't understand faith.

      I'm not implying we are smarter than believers because we make more sense logically. I don't have to. The argument itself establishes it.

    • profile image

      Wild Bill 

      3 years ago

      Austinstar,

      I was forced to read books like Huckleberry Finn, The Odyssey, and others when I was in High School. They were stupid and I completely hated them and swore I wouldn't read another novel again. To me it was a waste of time. After college, for some reason, I started reading again and I eventually re-read those books I was forced to read. I saw them in a whole new light. They were wonderful and brilliant and there were underlying meaning hidden in them that I could not have possibly understood as a teenager.

      What will you learn if you go again? I don't know. We are all different and we get different things from church. Maybe to release the anger. Maybe to love all of man. Maybe nothing. That I cannot answer. I guess there is only one way to find out. If not, we will never know.

    • abdussalaam profile image

      Abdus Salaam 

      3 years ago from Luton

      @Terrex

      I have nothing further to add other than what I have already said.

      "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." Q109:6

    • Terrex profile image

      Terrex 

      3 years ago

      @abdus

      'Point One' - 'In your opinion, the description of the buraq as that between of a mule and is of size rather than appearance'

      So.....why do you call the 'buraq' a 'stallion'? Haven't you actually just chosen an animal in appearance almost identical to a donkey/mule, but a bit more 'dignified'?

      Perhaps you missed it - I already addressed this point:

      "... why do people try to masculate and give an aura to Muhammad's vehicle on the 'Night Journey' by calling it a 'horse' or 'stallion'. (Never a mare, for some reason)..... He described it as between an 'ass' and a 'donkey'. Why jump to 'stallion' - why not say it was a mini-elephant or rattlesnake or grasshopper, then?"

      I assumed that my text was really obvious in terms of 'appearance', as well as size.

      'Point 2' - 'Believing in flying donkeys flying prophets to heaven and back is NOT a trait of the people Mohamed preached to who were 'uneducated, superstitious and, consequently, gullible' because scepticism in nothing new.'

      The fact that 'scepticism is nothing new' is not news to anyone - it's the basis of science and progress. It's how the intelligent separate the wheat from the chaff, fact from fiction, truth from lies.

      Scepticism protects us from fanaticism; the satanic brutality of Islamic State, al-qaeda, Hamas and the Taliban and its supporters who believe unquesioningly is proof of that.

      Mohamed 'described Jerusalem to the Meccans' so he must have been there? Really?

      If I described the moon to you, would you think I've been there? Mohamed was working as a caravaner on the trade routes for the old widow, Khadijah, and met a lot of traders and travellers from distant lands, many of whom had been to Jerusalem. Obviously, he'd have an idea of what Jerusalem looked like, especially more than the average Meccan!

      This is where scepticism is the prudent approach.

      'Point 3' - 'Mohamed foresaw 'infighting' amongst muslims, which means he could predict future events'

      Anyone heading any large group of people (particularly in more barbaric times) knows for a fact that there will likely be 'turf-wars' after his authority dies with him - it's not a 'prediction', it's a commonly-observed principle of humn nature.

      Like A-star said some time ago, if the Quran predicted Google, the web and modern phenomena, we would consider it being true. As things are, you list things you say Muhammad claimed to have predicted, but whose predictions only appear in Islamic scripture, nowhere else.

      That's like me writing a book that I am God, and when you ask for proof, I say, "Well, read my book - it says so right there. And I might kill you for questioning its veracity, too."

      You said you addressed my 'most potent points', but I think you have ignored my most potent points:

      1. That the Quran pointed at 2 then-already-non-existent civilizations as 'proof' of what happened to peoples, kingdoms and civilizations that rejected Islam, when there were in Mohamed's time umpteen peoples, kingdoms and civilizations that prospered in their rejection of Islam and, in fact, continue to do so today to the point that people fleeing Islamic countries flee overwhelmingly to the Christian West which the Quran called the 'rejecters'.

      It seems the 'rejecters' had, and have, a superior position in the actual God's eyes.

      2. You said you believe the buraq 'can fly, much like how angels and birds fy.'

      Well, coming back to physics, no donkey will be able to fly with wings. More importantly, I think if God wanted someone transported anywhere in His Universe, he would have the power to instantly get them there - flying donkeys just make it really obvious the story was targeted at an audience who were uneducated, superstitious and, consequently, gullible.

      Returning to the point where the buraq was raised - so you believe in flying asses, but not centaurs and unicorns? Why not?

      You say people who cannot believe Islamic legends are 'sceptic to the godly' and speaking of those other fantastic creatures as 'This is not but the legends of former peoples.'

      Are you then guilty of exactly that by rejecting unicorns, centaurs, chimeras and gorgons?

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