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Religion and Atheism.

Updated on May 13, 2015
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I am an atheist, but...

I respect every religion but in my opinion they're all the same. For example, in the Bible you will find a man on a cloud called God, Jehovah's witnesses call him Jehovah and in the Qura'an you will find a man called Allah, Al-Lah translates from Arabic to English as 'Al' meaning 'The exclusive' and Lah meaning 'God'. Some British members of the Islamic community can be heard shouting 'My Lah!' meaning 'My God!'.

Every religious book follows the same theme, the eternal creator and their prophets, in the bible the prophet is Jesus, in Islam it is Mohammad, in Judaism it is Moses (I think). Under the prophet is the disciples and then the followers. At the bottom of the pile are the sinners, these are the people who will be damned by hell fire or stuck on Earth in limbo whilst others move on to 'Paradise'/heaven.

Every religion teaches what it believes to be the 'right' way to live, in my opinion these holy books are guidelines for those who don't have the capacity to realise their own conscience telling them the difference between right and wrong. Everybody can make the 'right' decision where they don't have an adverse effect on anybody else's lives, the use of holy books are for small minded individuals who can not interpret right and wrong, this is why many who are religious are against abortion even if the person having the abortion was only impregnated by a rapist.

Naturally, you have those who interpret the holy books as absolute truth and if you use another book to learn right from wrong then you deserve to be eradicated from the world, this is the view of extremists and how extremist views are formed. In the bible it tells us not to worship any other idols, after all, even though Mother Teresa was a modern-day saint, we shouldn't pay her any worship for what she has done for the millions of people she has helped in her life time.

What I have learnt since I first wrote this hub...

Since writing this hub, I have come across all different people from different cultures and backgrounds and learnt about religions I never knew existed, all of which have a fundamental philosophy of a creator, whether that is God or the Big Bang or Brahmin or whoever.


Who are we to say which God is real and which isn't? Surely to admit one is real is to admit all of the rest are real, at least the same person, right?

If we deny God's existence, then we fight a losing battle because there are more religious individuals across the Earth then there are Atheists.

The point is, truth is what ever you make it to be. If God is real to you then who am I to tell you He doesn't exist? Same goes for a Christian claiming Allah doesn't exist... If you deny one God's existence, you deny them all.

That is my firm opinion.

Source

Perhaps as Atheists...

Maybe, as Atheists, we cling on to the idea of natural selection and evolution and the big bang to give us an alternative to the creator God.

Maybe a creator God set into motion the Big Bang which will eventually be the opposite when we get sucked back up into a tiny (in comparison to the size of our universe) ball of matter ready to explode once more which has defined the existence and reason behind every scientific discovery.


How do we know, that a creator God didn't give us the Universe the way He did so that in the primitive stages we DID know and believe in him but as time went on and we adapted, he wanted us to discover things to discredit himself (if he is the creator God, then why else would he put things on this earth to discredit his existence unless he wanted us to?) So that we can carry on as fully individual beings... Until we die and are reborn again during the next time the ball of matter explodes into another universe?

What are your views?

Comment below with your views on Atheism and religion.

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    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 2 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      I have added that into the hub, jackclee lm :D

      I have also further updated this hub to be respective of my opinions as they have further developed since the time of writing.

    • jackclee lm profile image

      Jack Lee 2 years ago from Yorktown NY

      AndrewHil93 - I am new to this hubpage and have read all the comments. may I suggest a book to clarify some of the confusion. The book is "The Science of God" by Gerald Schroeder and can be found on Amazon. I think some atheists believe science is contrary to religion. He makes a case for the opposite. Worth checking it out.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      That's not proof...

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      tsadjatko,

      I just added a comment on that link, the last one. It might give you something to think about.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      I'll bear that in mind. :)

    • tsadjatko profile image

      TSAD 3 years ago from https:// www.consumeraffairs.com/ online/ hubpages. html

      Wow, didn't have time to wade through the whole discussion so if I repeat something I apologize, but Andrew from reading your hub page I can see that you have seriously confused religions with Christianity which is what atheists do. Maybe this link will explain what I mean.

      https://philippians1v21.wordpress.com/why-believe-... That is as long as you have nothing against a Scotsman.

      In addition there are reasonable answers from qualified Christian apologists (most of whom have spent a lifetime studying Christianity) to any question you have presented in this discussion and I'd suggest you Google your questions and study different points of view by knowledgeable (knowledgeable about the Bible) people before coming to wrong conclusions.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      No it sin't, Andy, just as what Brie said early on about Jesus taking the people out of Abraham's bosom into heaven. Such things are taught because the world controllers want to keep people divided. That another reason for so many divisions in Christianity, Islam and Judaism, divisions doesn't allow for mass uprisings.

      I will not say all of them, she does some things outside of religion because of her incarnation's destiny, her karma is one example, but a lots of what she religiously believes is nothing but a mental conditioning by her religion.

      There are very few scriptures written by the message bringers, not even the Karan, the prophet could not even write so he dictated it to a scribe. However, the final prophet, the one like unto Moses (Duet. 18:15 & 18), is told in Isaiah 30:8 "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever." That will be done by the last prophet prior to civilization's end, otherwise, I know of no message bringer other than those whose prophecies are recorded in the Bible, and some of them might not be their actual writings like the books of Moses wasn't written by him -- who actually wrote their messages.

      Elijah NatureBoy

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      So, if the book of Mormon doesn't tell black people about themselves, instead it is a Mormon person who makes these racist claims, then that's not a representation of the Mormon religion, is it?

      That's like saying all of Brie's actions in life, no matter what, are a representation of everyone in the Christian religion.

      What she's saying is, every religion no matter what is misleading and so is every other version of the Bible, except mine, mine is real and tells the truth because it says it does... I know the others do too but they're lying, mine isn't lying because a fairy tale on a cloud who's son he sent to slaughter told me so in the pages of this book written by many other men except Jesus or God himself.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      That's exactly why one has to be led of spirit to study for themselves and not by man of world religions. Man of religion will teach something the scriptures doesn't even imply through metaphors, allegories, parables and symbol-types (maps), not to mention to say outright, and there's nothing to be found from the things made to suggest it either. That's why those who have faith must work to find evidence and substance to support unseen beliefs. Little do people know that Lucifer (Isaiah 14:2) is in control of all world religions and dictate all teaching so as to maintain dissension between people by which they control them. Lucifer know few people will seek substance and evidence to support what they are taught therefore they maintains control of man-in-mass through parental upbringing (Gen. 3:24), religions and secular schooling.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      That's right they don't, they are deceptive. The Book of Mormon is a lie.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      So, Brie, will you give me a little of your testimony of your conception, some to the things you did while gestating and how long was it, what was the sours of your trivial, and how long have you been born because part "A" of Romans 1:20 suggests "the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made." That means the spiritual birth has to pattern itself after the physical.

      No, I am not twisting the scriptures, I'm taking the made things to interpret them as part "B" of Romans 1:20 reads "even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Thus, that is where the work of "faith" comes in, the things made interpret the Bible and one has to see the individual stories in the book and look for made things to recognize what it's talking about.

      Andy, Words of wisdom, for sure.

      But, Brie, your state "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" makes the Book of Mormons as inspired as the Holy Bible.

      Also, Brie, if mormons teaches "teach that God is made of flesh, that he is having spirit babies constantly and that if those spirit babies are bad they will be born with black skin and if they are good they will be born with white skin" they are definitely in error -- I've studied with them, read the Book of Mormons including the Doctrines and Covenants and haven't read that anywhere. If they teach it they don't say it around Blacks.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      I imagine the black Mormom community hasn't been told the truth about their religion.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      I imagine the black Mormon community would disagree with their religion being outright racist.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      No Mormons are not Christians..they preach another Gospel, they teach that God is made of flesh, that he is having spirit babies constantly and that if those spirit babies are bad they will be born with black skin and if they are good they will be born with white skin.

      The Bible tells us what to think about the scriptures:

      2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

      None of the different translations give different meanings; also you can easily read the Bible in the original Greek or Hebrew these days (I do it all the time).

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      The Bible's teachings are to be interpreted uniquely to each individual, this is why it isn't a book of what is, written by just one person...

      There isn't a book of Jesus, so we don't even know if he actually existed other than accounts of other men.

      Conforming to the Bible's teaching is impossible, it doesn't actually teach us anything. We teach ourselves from what the Bible tells us.

      Unless you know a chapter saying that this book means...

      I don't know a chapter which explains the teachings of the Bible, As a Christian, you shouldn't be telling anyone they're wrong from learning different lessons from a book which doesn't actually tell us what we need to learn from it.

      We could say that it's just a book of fairytale and that the Jewish holy scrolls hold more truth, being older than the Bible, and all...

      Or the ancient dead language religions which are older than any modern day Bible which has been altered by governments to remove certain scriptures to suit the masses.

      I mean, the Bible has been tampered with more than once. How can we say the Bible is truth when there are several different bibles?

      What about the book of latter day saints, are Mormons not real Christians?

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      I am born again and I know the Bible and your beliefs do NOT conform with the Bible's teachings I don't care how many verses you insert that have nothing to do with what you are talking about. You are twisting the scriptures to your own destruction.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      Sorry, Brie, I am born of spirit -- with testimony of my conception, gestating, trivial, birth for over 38 years of being called out of worldly religions -- therefore it teaches me and not man. The seed of spirit which remains in me teaches me (1 John 3:9). I will, however, communicate with those who assemble in order to exhort them (Hebrews 10:25 KJV) and accept any of their teachings spirit instruct me to but I will not accept their general teachings. MAYBE you need to become born again.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      No, Elijah that is not what having faith means...where are you getting this stuff? You need to get into a good bible believing church and study under a pastor who knows what he is talking about. I would recommend a Calvary Chapel. Your doctrine is way off.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      Andrew,

      Look at Genesis 1:14 telling us the first purpose for the sun, moon and stars, which reads, "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." We understand the seasons, days and years but why "signs?"

      "Signs" tells us to look at existence like we do the 4 seasons of the year, the 2 major times and 2 minor transitions of days and the months [defined moons] of the year. In looking at the four seasons we have many times man calls "new year" but if we look at the seasons one would likely say spring is the beginning place with it's yellow green budding of plants [Asians are considered yellow man and also called Orientals to correspond with spring], then there is the "red ripe fruit" of summer [Cain's leaving Eden eastward went through the Alaskan straight to the Americas are called red man], then there's autumn's darkening of fruit and leaves [representing the African man] and finally the white snow of winter [Europeans] which destroys all life except the evergreens and a few winter growing plants [symbolizing everlasting life].

      Now we can look at this civilization as being the "morning civilization" because we have the sun ruling it, Revelation 21 gives us a sunless civilization (Verse 23) for the "evening civilization" and Genesis 1:1-2:3 tells us of 7 days [thousand years] between the evening civilization and the morning's. We know about the "rest day" in Rev. 20:4 but no one seem to realize everyone killed will reincarnate during the 7 remaining millenniums before Revelation 21's civilization take place. Thus, Andy, there is no actual never a time of beginning. As a matter of fact the Hebrew word translated into "in the beginning" in Genesis one should have been translated to read "in beginning."

      Brie, look that up that Hebrew word and see that I am correct.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      Brie,

      What does Hebrews 11:1's "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" mean? It means when one has "faith" they seek substance and evidence to support their reason for believing. Thus, it is a science, the practice of, as related to the Bible, reading something and then seeking something happening around us to give us a purpose for believing it's possible. Faith is not blind, James 2:20 reads "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Therefore, if we are brought into faith we are literally scientists seeking proof of our beliefs.

      I didn't say there was nothing about Abraham's bosom, I am looking for where he took them to heaven after he said in Mat. 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." That is talking about the end of civilization. That chapter was talking about the termination of Yerusalem's temple and civilization's end, only those who survive civilization's end will be save is said there but nowhere does it say he went and carried them to heaven. That does happen until after the rapture where Jesus carries us one at a time into heaven from the earth and not from discarnation (death: see Mat. 16:1-16 for how he raptures us John 14:3 where he is scouting heaven out to take us).

      As for sinning, the KJV say in 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. " If you thank that is in error look at how Jesus said the "born of god" lives in John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit," they become nomads, enters a place, share their message and moves on without them knowing from whence they came or to whither they went [unless they ask but sometimes one doesn't know where they are going, I know because I've live that life for over 36 years].

      Because of how KJV was translated I'm more inclined to believe it because the other versions were translated to cause people to believe what the translators wanted them to believe, the KJV was translated to make the Bible available for public reading although today many terms in it has been changed to cause misunderstanding. Yet, even the NIV you posted reads "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God," say the "born again" does not sin. I know because since my "new birth" I have not sinned, the things I did thinking I was sinning I learned lessons from doing them, therefore, I didn't "miss the mark" as sin means.

      It is so easy to justify one's not living the scriptures but once we live what is written to do it is impossible not to comprehend what they mean.

      Elijah, aka, NatureBoy

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      But what if he isn't?

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 3 years ago

      Nothing...God always was...

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      But what came just before that?

    • profile image

      Stargrrl 3 years ago

      God is outside of time. He has no beginning, nor end. He created time, and He created beginnings and endings. But He is outside of time. He is the alpha and the omega. It's hard for us to comprehend that because we are inside of time, have beginnings, and an end.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      God always was and always will be..God is eternal.

      http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      If God is the first creator which science has not yet discovered, then who created God? What made him? How did he/it come into being?

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
      Author

      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      One thing we can agree on is that something did indeed create the start which subsequently created everything. This is what God is.

      But the bible, as your own evidence suggests, isn't absolute truth.

      Sorry, let me rephrase that to "Might not be absolute truth according to the only evidence we have so far."

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      Yep..nothing cannot create something and there's the rub!

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
      Author

      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      That's an acceptable response, but what we must remember is there are various definitions of truth.

      Firstly, the most common one, is what we believe is true. Which by all means, could well be but there is little to no evidence to suggest there is truth and;

      Secondly, truth which is supported by cold hard facts which can't be disputed.

      Although there is one question, before science... Before every single discovery about anything to do with physics and creation... that thing which happened to cause the cause of the big bang... Who was that? What was that? If not God, then what?

      Alas, Science doesn't even know that and this is one big red zone in science. If God isn't real, then what about the very very beginning. What formed the very first thing out of nothing?

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      I have no problem with answering legitimate questions if someone really is confused but I do have a problem with people who..no matter what the answer is are not interested in the truth.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      Good response, Brie. I've been rendered speechless a couple of comments ago haha, this argument is very insightful and positive. I hope nobody is getting offended?

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      First of all the scriptures say "The natural man discerneth NOT the things of God", therefore you can know nothing of God until you come to faith.

      2Ti_2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

      Therefore this will be my last response because you have no interest in the truth.

      Here is where Jesus talks about Abraham's Bosom:

      Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

      Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

      Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

      Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

      Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

      Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

      Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

      Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

      Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

      Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

      Regarding your other question:

      Can a true Christian sin or not?

      by Matt Slick

      Yes, he can sin.

      1 John 1:8-10

      "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (NASB)

      "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (NKJV)

      No, he cannot sin.

      1 John 3:9,

      "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (NASB)

      "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." (NKJV)

      1 John 5:18,

      "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him." (NASB)

      "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." (NKJV)

      Is John contradicting himself when he says in one verse that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves (1 John 1:8); and yet he also says the one who is a Christian cannot sin (1 John 3:9; 5:18 NKJV)? There is no contradiction, but to see why we will need to look at the original Greek language.

      The Greek

      1 John 3:9 1

      Πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἁμαρτίαν οὐ ποιεῖ ὅτι σπέρμα αὐτοῦ

      All the one having been born from the God sin not does because seed of him

      JMSNX AMSN VRPPMSN PG AMSG NMSG NFSA TN V3SPAI CSC NNSN OP3MSG

      ἐν αὐτῷ μένει καὶ οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτάνειν ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται

      in him stays and not he is able to sin because from the God he has been born

      PD OP3MSD V3SPAI CCK TN V3SPPI VPAN CSC PG AMSG NMSG V3SRPI

      1 John 5:18 2

      Οἴδαμεν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ οὐχ ἁμαρτάνει ἀλλ̓ ὁ

      We know that all the one having been born from the God not sins but t he

      V1PRAI CSN JMSNX AMSN VRPPMSN PG AMSG NMSG TN V3SPAI CCV AMSN

      γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ τηρεῖ αὐτόν καὶ ὁ πονηρὸς οὐχ ἅπτεται αὐτοῦ

      one having been born from the God keeps him and the evil not touches him

      VAPPMSN PG AMSG NMSG V3SPAI OP3MSA CCK AMSN JMSNX TN V3SPMI OP3MSG

      Analysis

      I have bolded the words above that I would like to focus on. In 1 John 3:9, the greek word ποιεῖ (poiei) means to do, to practice. The V3SPAI is shorthand for Verb, 3rd Person Singular, Present, Active, Indicative. Likewise, VPAN means Verb, Present, Active, Indicative.

      ποιέωa: a marker of an agent relation with a numerable event--to do, to perform, to practice, to make.’ διδάσκων καὶ πορείαν ποιούμενος εἰς Ιεροσόλυμα ‘teaching as he made a journey to Jerusalem’ Lk 13:22; οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου νηστεύουσιν πυκνὰ καὶ δεήσεις ποιοῦνται ‘John’s disciples often fast and pray’ Lk 5:33; τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν ‘in your name we did many miracles’ Mt 7:22; πίστει πεποίηκεν τὸ πάσχα ‘by faith he performed the Passover’ Heb 11:28.3

      So we see that the word means to do, to practice. But that isn't all. In Greek, like English, there are verb tenses: past, present, future. But in Greek, the present tense is not quite the same as the English. Instead, it is more a continuous action.

      Present tense: "The verb tense where the writer portrays an action in process or a state of being with no assessment of the action’s completion."4

      Finally, in 1 John 3:9 we see an infinitive form of a verb. The infinitive is "to go," "to see," "to eat," etc. This is important.

      "And he cannot sin (και οὐ δυναται ἁμαρτανειν [kai ou dunatai hamartanein]). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were και οὐ δυναται ἁμαρτειν [kai ou dunatai hamartein] or ἁμαρτησαι [hamartēsai] (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive ἁμαρτανειν [hamartanein] can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of ἁμαρτανει [hamartanei] in verse 8 and ἁμαρτανων [hamartanōn] in verse 6.5

      Conclusion

      There is no contradiction. What is happening is that John is saying that the one who is born again does not habitually abide in sin. He may fall into it, but he does not practice it as a lifestyle. The nuances of the Greek language are not carried over to the English; but when we understand what is happening, we then see there is no problem.

      Finally, any Christian who would say that he does not sin anymore fails to agree with 1 John 1:8 which says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." He would then be self-deceived.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      Brilliant comment, Elijah! A very well scripted argument.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      @ StarGrrl of 2 days ago:

      There are a lots of truths written but there's only one person to come to interpret the "mystery" of the scriptures, the lion of the tribe of Judah of the last days (the USA per Gen. 49:1 & 8-12) and we will not know who that is until he has had an "Out of Body Experience" (OBE per Rev. 5:12).

      You also wain "I have no way of knowing whether the people who sent Jesus to His death, or whether Barrabas, the murderer they set free, was saved or damned" but Jesus has already told us who are saved in Mat. 24:13, so why can't you?

      @ Brie 2 days ago:

      You said "If we say that we have no sin we are liars. Anyone born of God does not want to sin against him but we do because we are still in the flesh and fall to temptation" That means no one is born again because 1 John 3:9 say "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

      Where is "The people who died before Jesus were in Abrahams Bosom and when he died he went and got them and brought them to heaven" written? i have never read that in scripture, who gave you that interpretation? As a matter of fact, according to Daniel 12:13, "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days," they will reincarnate during the last days ("the end be" as written there) and stand as a person chosen to enter the promise to be taken there by Yoshua Called Jesus (Mat. 16:1-16).

      Elijah aka NatureBoy

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      So you are intolerant of intolerance..hmmm?

    • Mel Carriere profile image

      Mel Carriere 3 years ago from San Diego California

      You've created quite a pissing contest here on your Hub Pages wall in a short time. The one thing I am fanatically against is intolerance, otherwise I take the stance of who am I to judge, and I let people believe what they want. God will sort them out, whether God is an actual spiritual/conscious entity, the collective consciousness, or the set of rules that governs human behavior. Interesting hub.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      Sigh..even if I show you ..you will not understand..nevertheless I will make the attempt.

      Violent passages of the quran:

      The Quran:

      Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

      but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

      Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

      Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

      Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

      Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

      Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

      Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

      Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

      Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

      Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

      Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

      Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

      Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

      Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

      Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

      Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

      Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

      Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

      Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack.

      Jesus is God and the Son of God..just like I am human and the daughter of a human. Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus.

      Do you want me to list all the prophecies of the Bible that have come true?

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      Could you point out a violent quote as I have yet to read any in the quran.

      And you seem to blindly follow faith but contradict yourself, I mean I am told jesus is God and that he's his only son and not God himself. I'm also told we can't tell what happens after death but somehow we know about Abrahams bosom and that other holy books which are pretty much the same as the Bible with different names for the characters and books/chapters are completely false although you have provided no evidence which actually shows the Bible is better than the others and no evidence to support your claims about the quran.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      Yes I've read parts of it. It's jibberish for the most part and advocates violence in other parts but most importantly it denies that Jesus is God in the flesh and is therefore a doctrine of demons.

      I know because the Bible tells us.

      It doesn't matter that over a million people follow Mohammad, the whole world will follow after the Anti-Christ when he gets here..God doesn't go by the majority and has said..in fact, that broad is the way to destruction and many will follow it but narrow is the road to life and few will find it.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      But you said we can't know after death so how do we know he got them?

      Have you ever read the quran? That has a similar story of Abrahams bosom... Over a million Muslim people believe their book is more honest than the Bible. What do you say to that?

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      The people who died before Jesus were in Abrahams Bosom and when he died he went and got them and brought them to heaven.

      We know the Bible is true because of our own encounters with God, because of it's accuracy and because of the sure word of Prophecy which no other book can even come close.

      That is how we know that the Bible is true. But, the Bible tells us that the natural man (that is man without being born again) cannot understand the things of God. So, you, in your natural sinful state will never understand these things. You must seek Jesus yourself and become born again and then you will have a relationship with him and He with you, you will go to Heaven when you die and you will understand these things.

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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      But, what about those who died before the Bible was written, Brie?

      Also, stargrrl, if we have no way of knowing then how do we know that God didn't just condemn jesus to hell for blasphemy? I mean, before jesus there were thousands of Jews believing their God was the right one, how do we know that Jesus wasn't just a man who claimed to be the saviour and didn't commission to have a book written? Making all these false hopes of Salvation a lie?

      If we can't validate any truth in the Bible, why are you such stern believers? As you say, God is the only judge so how do we know that the murderer's weren't taken to heaven and the good people weren't sent to hell? Who says God is riteous if we can't validate what the Bible says? God could have been evil and Jesus could have been going against his father's wish, I mean, God seemed pretty angry ever since Eve ate the forbidden fruit... Even today, as though his own son's death didn't solve anything.

      How do we know God didn't let his son die for betraying him and when jesus cried to the heavens to forgive them, he could have been pleading with God before being damned to hell.

      Furthermore, shouldn't jesus have gone to hell to take the place of those he freed, in which case there'll never be a second coming until another of new of God's kids go awol...

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      If we say that we have no sin we are liars. Anyone born of God does not want to sin against him but we do because we are still in the flesh and fall to temptation.

      Prior to the Resurrection there were 2 compartments in Hell, one which was Hades and one that was called Abrahams bosom where the righteous went until Jesus opened up Heaven. The people who died before Jesus looked forward to His sacrifice that was prophesied in the Old Testament and we look back.

      The Bible does NOT teach that it is OK to sin and in fact, teaches the high cost of sin.

      No one else could have died for the sins of the world because no one else was spotless, unblemished, sinless and perfect like Jesus. This answers your last question as well.

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      Stargrrl 3 years ago

      I have no way of knowing whether the people who sent Jesus to His death, or whether Barrabas, the murderer they set free, was saved or damned. One thing about the bible is that it never tells you whether or not a person went to hell, and that is because God alone is the judge. So we don't know who is in heaven and who isn't, and we will never know that until we are there ourselves.

      Jesus was the one who had to die because He was the direct son of God, while Barrabas was not. Pontious Pilate offered Barrabas to the people because he thought they'd pick Jesus over Him, and PP didn't actually want to condemn Jesus. This was his way of trying to brush the dirt off his hands.

      As for the bible being a good role model, Jesus and Paul's writings in the NT set very good examples. Have you ever read the bible? I am reading Luke right now and recommend it if you want to learn more about Jesus, who he was and stuff.

      I hope this makes sense.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      So does this mean that today's Christians can sin? I'd have thought a saviour dying would be a one time chance, like a lottery win. I can't go to the national lottery and ask them to repay winnings because I squandered them...

      Does this mean that those already in hell were saved, as it wasn't their fault a saviour hadn't come to wipe out their heinous crimes?

      Also, do you think the Bible is a positive role model to teach us it is OK to sin and disobey the law because God will send his own children to slaughter instead of us?

      And if this is a positive message to give to Christians, is it acceptable for a parent to kill their child because someone else has done something wrong? Because that's effectively what God did. I mean, the fact Jesus received a death penalty for blasphemy which is still considered reasonable punishment in some middle eastern countries today, is neither here nor there.

      Also, the people chose to send jesus to the cross and free a murderer, did that murderer's crimes be forgiven by God especially when God could've let him die for our sins instead...

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      Stargrrl 3 years ago

      I agree because I believe that Jesus is the son of God, who died for our sins, and that He is part of a Holy Trinity--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus dying on the cross was the only sacrifice God considered acceptable that would make up for the sins of the world.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      Aha, now it's hotting up. I'd like to point out, Brie, I'm not attacking you. Just strongly disagreeing for now.

      Thanks for your input stargrrl, may I ask why you agree? :)

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      Stargrrl 3 years ago

      Allow me to interject here. I have to peacefully say I agree with Brie Hoffman...she speaks wisely and is truthful.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      go for it...

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      Maybe she hasn't so I'll give her a chance before I say anything.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      I'm finished for now haha

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      I'm enjoying this debate, could present some biblical answers to counter Brie's arguments but want to wait until you, Andy, are done with her.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      No, Jesus Is NOT the Father. The One True God is comprised of 3 persons; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus came and died on the cross, not the Father. Jesus became flesh to fulfill the law and die a sinners death even though He had no sin..so as to be the perfect lamb of God, the perfect atonement so that we could accept this gift and enter into heaven.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      But isn't he the father? I mean, you said yourself God came to us in the form of Jesus.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      Jesus took upon himself the punishment for our sins and gave anyone w who enters into a relationship with Him his righteousness. The reason that Hell exists is for those that refuse the free gift that has been bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus. They will suffer the penalty for their own sins. We suffer today for many reasons, 1: we are still under the curse, 2: to purify us and 3: to bring us to Christ ..because many would not come if they weren't faced with their own weakness brough to light through suffering. God did this because He loves us and knew that we would not be able to save ourselves. Jesus asked before he suffered if this cup could be taken away and it could not. Through the suffering of Jesus God's justice is satisfied and his mercy is revealed.

      You are correct, Jesus did allow himself to be killed ..for our sake. He who committed no sin, took the punishment for our sins so that anyone who trusts in Him will be able to enter into eternal life. He is the way, the truth and the LIFE and no one comes to the Father except by HIM!

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      Brie, thanks for your comment! It is insightful, I enjoyed reading this. Unfortunately, however, I agree with @TheoNatureBoy, there have been many OBE's recorded way before Jesus and many profits have died for someone else's sins throughout the religious transcripts other than Christianity.

      I take your point where you say he 'took upon himself the punishment for our sins', but if this is the case then why do Christians still believe in Hell if his life was our salvation? Not to mention, why do we suffer today if he taken for our sins? And lastly, why did God kill himself to save us, if he was the creator then surely he could've dealt with it without dying?

      Jesus killed himself by refusing his powers to save himself and those oppressed in the time, which is a sin in itself, he committed suicide and damned himself for eternity if we take the Christian book into account.

      I'm one for debating, I'd love to hear your response. :)

      Thanks, Andy.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      Brie Hoffman,

      There's only one that you know but there are several others who has had a man to have an Out of Body Experience (OBE) and come back to life then ascend long before the story about Jesus. Do some research, unless your belief in Christianity has you so prejudiced you're not interested, and you will find them.

    • Brie Hoffman profile image

      Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan

      There is only one religion that tells us that God came down, became flesh, took upon himself the punishment for our sins by dying a long painful death on the cross and offers in exchange his righteousness for our sins. No other religion except Biblical Christianity teaches this..all others are man's pitiful attempts at being good enough.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      Stargrrl,

      I've studied most religions to some degree and find the only real difference is the name given god. What few people know religion is a revelation of what happens on earth during this material civilization. The Bible is the only one I know giving a glimpse of the spiritual one -- and metaphorically told us there are/were 4 spiritual groups , 1 Asian, 1 Native American, 1 African and 1 European, on earth during most of this civilization -- following this material one. What few people do is compare religions seeking likenesses rather than differences.

      What is said in them all are almost the same things. Take, for instance, the Adam metaphor (Genesis 2 & 3) and the story of how the Buddha was raised, the only difference is Adam began in the self-reproducing environment and when evicted began civilization while the Buddha began in civilization and went into nature to obtain enlightenment. Both of their origins were a paradise but the Buddha found enlightenment by returning to the self-reproducing environment and for Adam it is also required to be cut away from all attachments (the sword) and have his mind purified of "The Knowledge of Good and Evil" (the flame) in order to return to it and enlightenment.

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      Stargrrl 3 years ago

      You are correct. All religions teach or preach that one should live a certain way. They all have something positive about them. It's a different story when you have faith enough to believe one is real over the others. Personally, I am a Christian.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      Yes, at first I did question it. But the explanation was thorough.

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      Many people say to put them together like that is an Oxymoron so I don't usually use that concept without the explanation, thus, you are most welcome.

    • AndrewHil93 profile image
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      Andrew Hill 3 years ago from Leicester, United Kingdom

      That was an extremely good response, at first I was curious as to Atheist-Christian. It's a strange group of words to see next to each other... I'm glad you explained.

      I guess, given God is the 'creator' and we do the creating, man are like gods.

      Thanks for your input!

    • The0NatureBoy profile image

      Elijah A Alexander Jr 3 years ago from Washington DC

      Well, Andrew, I'm a Atheist-Christian who see the union of both the theist and atheist are half of the whole. Yoshua called Jesus made 2 statements few people ever realize what he meant. The first is often called "The Golden Rule" found in Matthew' gospel which reads ...

      "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

      This is the first and great commandment.

      And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." It isn't usually realized when he said love god he was talking about our own life-force otherwise we would not know how to love others.

      The second one is written in John's gospel "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" In this one we have to first remember there are no high nor low case alphabets in Hebrew there that is only English speaking scribes prejudice to use the low case "g" in gods. Thus, the scriptures are saying man are gods and also why he used them both when talking about himself and the messiah to follow him. Thus, why should man believe in a god when all man are god, as a matter of fact, man actually means "mind able to comprehend all things" which, by definition, suggests man are god.

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