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The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality

Updated on March 7, 2016
Hanavee profile image

Brian Gray obtained his degree in Language from Lee University, and has been a published author and professional writer since 1985.

Leviticus 18:22 shown in the original Paleo-Hebrew.  Read from right to left, "V'et zachar lo tishchav mishchvey ishah toevah he."
Leviticus 18:22 shown in the original Paleo-Hebrew. Read from right to left, "V'et zachar lo tishchav mishchvey ishah toevah he."

Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth

I wanted to start this article right off with that loud statement - “The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality” - because for those who wonder what they are reading here, that statement should say it all. I prayerfully ask people to read the book, “Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality." This book represents forty years of intense scholarly research, and it proves with irrefutable and verifiable fact what the title of the book states. With this book filled with proven research materials, we finally have all of the facts about what the Bible actually does say in each and every passage that has ever been misconstrued to seemingly read that anti-gay bigotry is condoned.

There are several types of people who will come here to read this article. The one I find the most important will be the person who has been struggling with their sexuality for such a long time, struggling because they were taught that the person they are is damaged goods, unworthy of the love of God. And that hurts. Their pain is immeasurable. If I counted only the suicides, the unnecessary tragedies should stun us all. Those who have been tormented because of their sexual orientation have come for hope. For that person, I will say, “Wait no longer. Know that you are loved by God, that He made you the way you were born for a reason known only to Him, and He loves you just the way He made you. You are a child of God, and no one can take that away from you anymore.”

Of course, there is another type of person who is going to come here to read this, and that, unfortunately, will be the one who does so with the bigotry, hatred and anger that years of “taught” prejudices engender. “How dare you say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality!” they will shout. They won't take the time to read a thing I have written, nor will they take the time to first read the book before beginning their predictable diatribes. Instead, they will only read the title of this piece, scroll right down to the comments section, and thereupon will begin the litany of scripture verses, as if I have never read them, the same ones that have been trotted out each and every time, verses and passages that “seem” to condemn gays. For that person, I will say, “You do not speak for God, but instead, you speak for all the bigotry that has been handed down from bigot to bigot. You were not born a bigot, you were made a bigot, and being a bigot is a choice, a lifestyle. Time for the anti-homosexual lie to end, time for the pain you have created to end, and time for you to have a real and genuine talk with God about why you cannot let the hatred go.”

People ask me, "How can you say this?" Because, it is quite simple. An error is an error, and we who profess to be following the teacher of Truth owe the world our due diligence when we teach our beliefs. An error is an error, and if we are shown that something we have held as truth turns out to be error, we are required by our faith in God to seek the genuine truth, even when we find that the genuine truth points out our errors. Then, we have to take it one step further - we have to undo the error and strive to repent of the damage that error has caused. It is easy when a prejudice does not affect you to allow it to simply continue undeterred by anything you might do, but that is unjust. Every pain and sorrow inflicted on gay people has been brought on by not caring enough to right the wrongs of hate. People like to cloak their hatred of homosexuals with such phrases as "love the sinner, hate the sin," but this is falsification of the true agenda of those who use such phrases. Prejudices are taught, and they are not of God. Those who accept an error that brings so much pain to others, all while arrogantly refusing to look at evidence that exposes that error, these people live a lie, not true love and compassion. The Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality, and the lie to the contrary, no matter how enjoyable to bigots, cannot be permitted to continue.

Once you have read the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," you will definitely come to see that the Bible definitely does NOT condemn homosexuality...not anywhere, not at any time. Shocking? Well, yes, if you were raised like I was, a Fundamentalist Christian who was taught that all homosexuals were going to Hell. I heard sermon after fire-and-brimstone sermon about the “sins of Sodom” and the plain statement of Leviticus 18:22 (Man shall not lie with man...). So, how, you ask, can I say that the Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality? Because it absolutely does not. Read on.

In the just-released book, “Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality,” there is so much evidence contained therein, that it would be impossible to put it all here in this article. The book is over three-hundred pages and took forty years of scholarly research to produce. If you read the book, you will come away knowing that what I am writing here in this short article is absolutely true, so, for further study and a deeper confirmation of what I am stating here, read this book. Of course, bigotry is more comfortable than study. Why study to learn anything if your mind is so closed that even God's truth cannot enter? If this book is false, then read and prove such, but if this book is truth, then why would you cling to a hateful prejudice that brings so much harm and division? The truth can stand to be questioned. Study is what destroys lies.

One of the puzzles for me is how people would rather condemn gays than to ask themselves a simple set of questions, “Am I correct? How do I know I am correct? Who taught me this anti-gay belief?” Well, do you ever ask yourself where your prejudices come from? Funny how we think our prejudices are inborn, or placed in our hearts by God, but this just is not the correct answer. Prejudice is born out of ignorance. Since God is the author of Truth, then ignorance is not a product of listening to God, rather, it is a product of not listening to God. Let’s look at a few of the prejudices that have been proven wrong in just the past century.

Women at the beginning of the 1900s were still considered inferior to men, and that inferiority was blamed on passages contained in the Bible. Few people truly knew their history, or they would have known that the passages used to subjugate women were passages that were written in the Middle East at a time in history when male chauvinism was law. In fact, this male chauvinism is still the law of the land in the Middle East. I've seen Christian men and women of the 21st century become extremely agitated when confronted with photos of women in the Middle East today who are required to completely cover themselves from head to foot with the burqa, yet these same Christians seem to forget that women were essentially treated the same way right here in America not too long ago. What changed? Did God change? Did God make women inferior to men at one time in history, and now He makes them equal? The same God yesterday, today and tomorrow made us all children who are equally loved by Him. He put none above the others, even though He made us all different for His personal joy. We have come a long way in America, and I think it is safe to say that few people in this country would say that women are inferior human beings.

The race issue is still causing us problems in this country. Why? Some still see difference as a reason to hate, not a reason to rejoice. Sound too simple? Apparently God likes variety, because that is how He made us. If it pleases God to see so many races, who are we do kick dust up at God? Who are we to deface His gift? If He finds joy in all of us being the way He made us, why can we not find that same joy? The answer is, we can, especially if you claim the promise of Jesus Christ and learn to love others the way He loved us. There is no excuse for prejudice. And when prejudice tries to justify itself by misinterpreting the Bible, the person who does so fights against God.

Prejudice is not inborn, it is taught and learned. Put a bunch of babies in the same room together, and they are going to play with each other with total disregard to how the other baby looks. When does that all change? It changes when adults pass on their “likes” and “dislikes.” Generation after generation passes the prejudice forward until someone somewhere rejects what was taught them and begins to study to find the truth. And that is what I did. I remember hearing my father preach that homosexuals were going to Hell, all while my visiting gay uncle sat in the pew next to me. I wondered to myself, why would my father insult my uncle like this? I was too young to understand back then, but I still remember the hurt my uncle must have felt sitting there being singled out by my father who preached this sermon straight from the pulpit... and coming from the pulpit made it hurt that much more. The pulpit, well, that was God’s holy turf, and anything that came from the pulpit had the weight of a battering ram. If you really wanted to make your point, have your statement carry unquestionable force, then having it stated forcefully from the pulpit in any church gave it sanctity, the seal of God’s approval. Doesn’t get any stronger than that. But I tell you this as a fact, preachers don’t make truth. They either report it, or they distort it. God makes truth, and life all around us reports it. If your eyes and ears are truly open, truth will be no mystery to you.

Sitting there in that church that night, listening to my father make the point that homosexuals were going to hell, I wondered why my uncle didn't just get up and walk out the door. But he didn’t. Like the gentleman he was, he stayed and endured the indignity, but he never came back. For many years after that night, I have thought about what happened back then, and I have asked myself why this had to be. Sadly, my father was preaching ignorance, and the effects were far-reaching. What comes from the pulpit has to be weighed against the reality of God, and as I often say, “If your Theology does not square with God’s reality, then you need to revisit your Theology.”

The facts of what the Bible genuinely says about homosexuality are contained in the book “Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality” by Wayne Gray, and while this book came about too late to help my late uncle learn that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, there are millions of gays in the world who are still being tortured by the general public, and this book will go a long ways in eradicating the ignorance that has been at the root of this inhumanity. The most often quoted passage in the Bible is Leviticus 18:22.

“Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.”

Such a small, short verse, yet the misinterpretation of this one line has divided more families, caused more sorrow, and led to more unnecessary deaths than any other passage in the Bible. What is even more strange is the fact that those who often quote this passage in defense of their bigotry cannot quote any other passage in the entire book of Leviticus! Wonder why this is? Further, since Christians are supposed to believe that Jesus brought an end to living under the old laws of the Old Testament, many will sputter and stammer when you ask them why they cannot quote any other passage from Leviticus and why they still want to observe only this one rule from that book. After all, the book of Leviticus is one ruling after another for the ancient Israelites. It is not one book with one seemingly anti-gay passage in it. Leviticus was a code of ethics and laws written for the Jews who had just returned to Israel from Babylonian captivity. It is not one rule, but hundreds, yet, strangely enough, most Christians ignore all of those other rules, all of them...but one. Without excuse.

Translating the famous Leviticus 18:22 passage is not simple, even with training in the original language, because this is a fractured line, that is, one that has some key words that were omitted. Still, because we have the passages before and after, with proper study, we can put together what the writers of this passage were trying to say to the Israelites so long ago. The Israelites had returned to Jerusalem from seventy years of Babylonian captivity, and those who had returned had been sent by Cyrus of Persia to rebuild the temple to the god of Israel, since Cyrus believed that all the gods of all the nations he possessed should be honored with their own temples. The Israelites in Jerusalem were living in the midst of Canaanites, and the Canaanites worshiped, among other gods, Molech. Leviticus 18:22 is merely one passage among several that admonish the Jews to leave the worship of Molech and separate themselves from any practices that make them like the Canaanites. In the fertility rituals of the temple of Molech, sex was considered one of the sacred elements. Thus, to place the passage in context, notice that the verses before and after 18:22 all deal with various practices in use within the sexual activities in the temple of Molech.

Men had sex on the temple altars with women who were not their own wives; thus, verse 20 begins with the admonition not to have sex with another man’s wife—

“. . . thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor’s wife . . .”

It then, in verse 21, moves on to sacrificing one’s children to Molech—

“. . . thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech . . .”

Now, the famous verse 22—

“. . . thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind . . .”

Then verse 23, “. . . neither shalt thou lie with any beast . . . neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto . . .”

In the temple worship of Molech, as well as many of the other gods, people would have sex to emulate the gods, because they felt that fertile lands were a product of the copulation of the gods. Therefore, imitating this pleasurable act of the gods would catch the attention of the gods, and their admiration of the acts of these mortals would confer that same guarantee of fertile lands and abundant harvests. Any sex act was considered normal, so men with wives, men with other men’s wives, men with men, women with animals, it was all considered sacred and useful for this ritual. But, the Israelites who returned from Babylon had a new religion that they were going to create, and in order to make the temple that they were rebuilding become the power center that they needed it to be, edicts were established that would begin a nation that was unique and separate in all things. Leviticus lays down laws on how they were to dress, how they were to act, how they were to live, how they were to wear their hair and much more. Anything that could possibly make them appear as similar to the Canaanites was forbidden. Thus, the Israelites who had been worshiping in the temple of Molech were now told that they would no longer be permitted to do this. Such dual citizenship was out. If you worshiped in the temple of Molech and then tried to come to the temple of Israel and worship, you would be considered “toevah,” "ritually unclean," (the word that is improperly inserted in the English here is "an abomination"), and you would have to cleanse yourself in the mikvah, or ritual cleansing pool in front of the temple, before you would be permitted to enter.

Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is erroneously inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean. One who was ritually unclean was not permitted to enter the temple proper until such uncleanness had been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people incorrectly think that this word translates "abomination" and means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is absolutely NOT the case. The word is "toevah," it only refers to an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the strongly condemning word “zimah.” They did not! Do not overlook this important point! And it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah. Remember this, the ritual sexual practices conducted in the temple of Molech would cause the modern-day conservative Christian to blush and yell "Sin!" But, the Israelites of that time and place only considered them practices that would render the particpating Israelite as unclean and in need of a visit to the ritual bathing pool....NOT Hell.

Further proof that Leviticus 18:22 does not say that man shall not lie with man, in other words, man shall not have sex with man, comes from the proper translation of the words in the original language. Here they are: “Vet zachar, lo tishkav mishkvey ishah; toevah hee.” This reads, literally, “And with a zachar, you will not lie in the beds of women; it is a ritual uncleanness.” So, what is a “zachar?” A zachar was an image of a male penis, and these were made out of every element known, from wooden ones to solid gold ones, and they came in all sizes. You might think of them today as a modern sex toy, but in the days of Leviticus, these were even made into amulets that were carried in pockets or worn around the necks of men. Further, this tradition became a regular item of society right on through the time of Christ and the disciples. From historical research, we find that the zachar was used in temple sexual rituals with the temple prostitutes, often men who dressed up like the goddess so that the male who was offering sex on the temple altar could copulate with one of the gods (thus, the “beds of women”), and Israel was not exempt from observing this practice. Note, for example, this passage in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 16:17 “You took your beautiful things, made of the gold and silver that I had given you, and you made yourself images of men and fornicated with them.”

Here, the words “images of men” is “tsalmey zachar,” which translates properly as “phallic images.” By now, it should be clear what these are, and their use was fully and totally understood by the Israelites, even if such knowledge is lost on modern era people. Even if such knowledge is not commonplace today, we have no excuse for the ignorance that results when we do not go back in history and study the culture of that time so that we can fully understand what the writers of these passages literally meant.

So, the passage in Leviticus 18:22 is not a stand-alone passage, but an item in a list of edicts declared by the new leaders that arose in Israel at that time thousands of years ago. The fact that we can simply read the chapter and see that it begins with a list should suffice, but for those who need further proof, simply read verse 24:

Verse 24 “Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled which I cast out before you.”

Makes it kind of obvious, don’t you think? "These things" - Plural? How much clearer does it have to get? The verse in the same discussion in chapter 18 says “these things,” not “this thing.” Leviticus 18:22 is one item in a list of items that the new leaders in Israel were listing as changes to be made in the national identity of all Jews. For a further and deeper discussion of all the proofs, read the book, “Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality” by Wayne Gray. This book demonstrates with irrefutable and verifiable fact what the truth is regarding Sodom and Gomorrah (they were not destroyed for homosexuality), and also opens the doors to a deeper understanding of the relationship between Jonathan and David, the true life of Daniel, the writings and true meanings of the apostle Paul, and even gives a chapter on how the sexual mores of today were arrived at, showing as well, that the anti-gay bias of today did not exist in the days of Jesus Christ, but began centuries later as a political movement in Rome. There is just too much detail to contain in one simple article, but the damage from mis-translating the Bible has gone on for far too long. It is time we learned the truth, then take that truth to set people free from the bondage of ignorance. We’ll never learn to truly love like Jesus taught us to until we do just this, study and apply the truth. The Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Let’s not be afraid to expose the myths and, in so doing as Jesus would have us do, to issue in an era of peace and love.

This book represents forty years of scholarly research and thoroughly examines every scriptural passage ever misinterpreted to be anti-homosexual. I recommend

The new, fact-filled book from Xlibris by Wayne Gray.
The new, fact-filled book from Xlibris by Wayne Gray.

Bigotry And Prejudice Are Born Out Of Ignorance

Bigotry and prejudice are born out of ignorance. These aspects of life are taught, handed down from one person to the next generation. These prejudices are not inborn, and just as they are taught, they can be repudiated and unlearned. Prejudices are not based in fact, but based, instead, in lies and misinformation designed to hurt and harm others. The cure for ignorance is education. When the anti-gay myth has been taught long enough, people forget its origins, but as the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality" fully details, anti-homosexual prejudice and bigotry did not exist at the time of Christ, nor was it taught in the Early Church. It was not until the 4th Century under the Roman Emperor Constantine that this ignorance began, and that was as a political movement in a war between the Nicenes and the Arians. Ending this painful and sorrowful ignorance is long overdue, and I strongly urge everyone who reads my article to purchase this book, form a study group, and have everyone delve into the details offered therein. Then, take the knowledge out there and spread the word. Stamping out this horrible and destructive myth should be the responsibility of all of us who care about a just society and a more peaceful world. Take the pledge, promise to do something to help end the effects of centuries of false propaganda that has infected the Church and our world. Get this book, study it well, and spread the word. You will help to make this world a better place because you are in it.

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    • savvydating profile image

      Yves 17 months ago

      No problem, Oztinato. Yes, even though I said all people are free to have sex as they please, that doesn't make everything OK in all circumstances.

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      Thanks Savvy

      I was of course agreeing with them and not condemning gays.

      The Bible is stern about adultery and other sexual sins that apply to all people. Adultery for example is now passe but that doesn't mean it's spiritually wrong.

    • savvydating profile image

      Yves 17 months ago

      Thanks Alan. I appreciate it. Have a Happy Sunday!

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      Thank you for that clarification, Savvydating.

      I do tend to get a bit carried away in defense and apologise for appearing to be arrogant.

    • savvydating profile image

      Yves 17 months ago

      One final point, lest my use of the words "evil" and "disgusting" be misinterpreted (in my comment before this one). What I meant is that Oztinato did not use those type of words. Consequently, I took the word bizarre to mean "that which is strange to the body, health wise." I would only use the other words if say, a woman was brutally raped. Otherwise, people are free to have sex however they please if both partners consent and are in no way coerced, and if they take precautions when needed.

    • savvydating profile image

      Yves 17 months ago

      Hanavee...and Alan, I read your posts, as well as Oztinato's posts. He did not condemn homosexuals. I do not condemn homosexuals. In fact, he agreed with you. As far as I can tell, his use of the words sodomy and bizarre were offensive to both of you. He explained why he used the word sodomy. As for the word bizarre, he also agreed that some heterosexuals are Ok with anal sex. It seems to me that "bizarre" is better than saying evil or disgusting, etc. in terms of any person who participates in anal sex.

      Anyway, I am over that subject. I've stated numerous times in various instances that homosexuals are born, not made. I like gays and anyone who is nice to me, for that matter. Most women do. Thanks for your replies.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      Ok, please let me correct this once and for all: I am not dismissing the bible, as a reference, in the context of Hanavee's hub.

      I am dismissing the bible, as a reference, in the context of bigotry.

      On the one hand, to read and learn about what is written in the Bible, in the context of what is known about living and lifestyles 2-3-4,000 years ago, is a proper course of study. We have as humans, an intellectual basis that gives us a unique advantage (if we use it!) within the animal kingdom. So yes, let's use it to the full.

      On the other hand, taking on board the biases, adverse objectives, stubborn ignorance and make-believe of countless interpreters can be a distinct dis-advantage for people who don't fit their mold of perfection. This is how that Bible is mostly used by people who are anti-homosexual. And that is regardless of whether individuals like yourself and Oztinato claim you don't have anti-feelings about homosexual people.

      I suggest that the only way you can enter into an honest and, perhaps, a dispassionate discussion on this topic is to read carefully through the book which Hanavee has spoken about here in his hub. That way you can see the points he is making. I have absolutely no knowledge of ancient languages or cultures that existed in those BC times. So all I can do is read the results of vast learning and research.

      It also helps me to feel legitimate and worthy as a simple, down-to-earth human being who just happens to be homo-sexually orientated. In a country where I was adversly judged and convicted for such an orientation, I would not be writing these lines....I would be strung up and dead.

    • savvydating profile image

      Yves 17 months ago

      Alan...read over your first two sentences. It appears that you are dismissing the Bible, as a reference, in the context of Hanavee's hub----which is specifically about the Bible and Homosexuality.

      As for what I believe constitutes a good man, I have no idea where you came to your conclusion since I did not set forth any specifications.

      As most people know, I believe Gays have the right to love just as much as heterosexuals. I see no difference in this regard. My point is that we all acknowledge that anal sex has drawbacks, for health reasons. The other point is that I did not see that Oztinato condemned you or anyone else. I see that Hanavee had also written a response. I will read it and address it at some point.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 17 months ago from Pennsylvania

      savvydating,

      Words used, such as "sodomy" and "bizarre," to cite a few of Oztinato's comments, are words that have been used to harm homosexuals for centuries. Homosexuality is not "sodomy," and it is time that such a word be stricken from our vocabularies. Homosexuals are not from the ancient city of Sodom...period. The word has been used as a pejorative wrongly for far too long, and when one uses it in the course of conversation, it shows a bias against homosexuals. "Bizarre" is equally offensive. Further, the argument has been erroneously put forward, equally far too often, that homosexuals are to blame for AIDS. This falsehood needs to stop. Oztinato also condemned anal sex and, whether intentional or not, made it seem as if the only ones participating in this sexual practice are homosexuals. Any educated person reading his post would come away understanding that he is biased against homosexuals for these reasons, and as such, his comments needed to be addressed. If I appear to be harsh, that would be an incorrect reading of my comments. They were corrective, and needfully so, because the anti-gay bias in this world needs to end.

      Brian

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      @savvydating "Yet Alan states that we should not use the Bible as a reference."

      Beg your pardon! I did not say that. And I have not indicated Oztinato as the "bad guy." Both of these are your own interpretation of what I wrote, right?

      Hence, interpretation is the name of the game.....

      Yes, I have a prejudice here. My personal welfare is at stake if I allow people to paint homosexuality as something sinful.... as many people in the world are apt to do.

      Each of us has a prejudice. You have one, apparently you have preconceived ideas as to what constitutes a "good man."

      Do you see Hanavee as one such? Or myself? Or Oztinato? How do you make an assessment?

      Hopefully you will read through my previous post again, and see that I am just an ordinary man....nothing special.

      But thank you for your comment.

    • savvydating profile image

      Yves 17 months ago

      Hanavee...the title of your hub uses the Bible as a reference---as in "The Bible Does Not Condemn." Yet Alan states that we should not use the Bible as a reference. So which is it? Are we to use the Bible, or more precisely, the ancients Jewish standards for cleanliness to interpret the Bible or should we not. My point here is that I do not see where Oztinato has condemned homosexuals as you and Alan have suggested. Truth be told, I do not expect that Oztinato would defend me in any particular way...but for the sake of fairness, I have to wonder why you defend Alan's points over Oztinato's. I mean, they both write about fecsl matter and they both agree that anal sex has definite drawbacks.

      My point is that unless I have missed something, I don't see much difference in either of their arguments. Nevertheless, Oztinato is viewed as the "bad guy." I find this odd. There seems to be some prejudice on your part, Hanavee. Just my observation.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      I suggest we get away from such statements as "the bible bans...."

      The "Bible" does not "ban" anything. It is humans who choose what they want to read and believe, then apply their prejudice to interpret in favour of their opinions.

      Anyone who comes from a cultural or traditional understanding, taught to them and learned from biased sources, will find it difficult to expand their minds into other possibilities. Add the old favourite arguments which come from here-say, sense of disgust, and what members of the peer-group support, then you have vilification and all levels of unfair treatment.

      Let's separate out those activities which you have mentioned above, Oztinato.

      Bestiality, the use of non-human animals for sexual purposes. Weird, dangerous in many cases, yucky for most of us to consider, something which psychologists might be able to explain, but mostly incomprehensible. I would never entertain it, would you?

      Anal sex, a practice which is common in hetero- and homo-sexual relationships. A practice which is not necessarily hazardous, but needs some good basic sense and hygiene to render it less of a risk. Usually enacted behind closed doors, out of sight, need not involve anyone else so if it offends, look away. It does not harm you if you are not involved.

      Adultery, a basic and common human aberration, that can and does harm many people outside of the couple immediately involved. Yet so many people do commit adultery that it's glossed over as "acceptable," because "although I am overtly against it, I might want to indulge some time in the future, so let's keep the option open." Hypocritical if nothing else! You are right, not specific to "gay" people but just as damaging as when applied to "straight" people.

      Pedophilia, a word which does not mean the usual connotation. "Philia" is from the Greek word meaning Love. Pedo referring to children, it would be nice if we were talking about adult "love of children." But it is usually an adult irresponsibility towards children which is the fault. It can involve coercion, tricks, improper physical activity and generally an abuse of trust which the child has for an adult. Love goes out the back door, because selfishness has come in through the front door. If we believe statistics, pedophilia (let me re-name it as child abuse) is not uncommon with close relatives and involves little girls and boys, nephews, nieces, any child who is a soft target and vulnerable. PLEASE don't promote the notion that because a man is homosexual in his orientation he is inevitably a child abuser. Nothing could be further from the truth.

      Incest, something that WAS apparently practised in biblical times and might occur frequently in our modern world, I have no way of knowing for sure. Start another thread/forum about it, but it does not need to be mentioned in a discussion about homosexuality.

      So, I see this Hub about trying to educate the world honestly. It is trying to speak the truth about excuses; excuses people can bring up in order to vilify those who are in relationships other than heterosexual.

      In a modern world of 7+ billion human inhabitants, we need to develop friendships and partnerships which can be beneficial to the community as well as to the individuals involved. A healthy same-gender partnership can be one such. Let's promote it. Heterosexual will always be the majority but it does not need to vilify the homosexual.

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      PS

      not to mention adultery, pedophilia and incest.

      These are of course not specifically "gay" practices.

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      The hub is about if the Bible bans gays. I'm claiming it only bans bestiality and anal sex. This is for clarification of the hub theme.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      It's perfectly obvious to any one of who cares to look, there are stupid and risky practices common amongst hetero- and homo-sexual people. We only need to take a brief peep into the Internet World of pornography to appreciate this point.

      I do not condone or make any excuses for such behavior. It an activity is liable to hurt anyone else, let alone the participants, then it can be called into question: in other words, it's better not to do it. Yet, short of banning it altogether and policing the neighbourhood, with vigilantes peeping into bedroom windows at night, you are never going to stop "it" happening, whatever "it" is. We can dislike the thought, object on moral grounds, try to protect our children, etc., etc. But we will not stop it.

      A good start would be to promote clear, honest, educated and intelligent discussion about sexual matters in general, free of superstition and beliefs supported by religious dogma. Stop being so evasive and embarrassed whenever the subject is raised. Children expect open and frank teaching and example from their adults. And they deserve it.

      Instead of learning all the important things about "the Birds and the Bees" behind the bicycle shed, or where ever they congregate, young people need to know the facts, free from innuendos and dirty talk, so they can make clear and sensible decisions in their lives.

      Prejudice born of ignorance will not help them.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 17 months ago from Pennsylvania

      Oztinato,

      You wrote:

      "The fragile badly strafed inner linings of the gay excretory system was a playground for AIDS. It wasn't just about feces, there were things that propelled AIDS forward. The human body wasn't designed for bizarre purposes. We can't bend it to our will."

      That statement is condemning homosexuals based on an incorrect assumption that AIDS is only transmitted through anal intercourse, then taking it a step further and indicting all homosexuals because of a false assertion that all homosexuals engage in anal sex. Two great errors here. Facts: heterosexuals far outnumber homosexuals, and they engage in anal sex, as well, thus, anal sex is NOT a homosexual synonym; and secondly, AIDS has various methods of transmission, not just anal intercourse, once again making this disease no respecter of persons, and most definitely NOT the "GAY PLAGUE"! I am sick and tired of hearing people try to equate homosexuals with AIDS, since all scientists know as FACT that AIDS began when an African male contracted the virus from an ape, then transmitted that to another human who eventually transmitted that virus to a person travelling to the U.S., and the rest is history (just like Ebola). AIDS is still seen in higher numbers among the heterosexual population than in the homosexual population, which also means nothing except that it most definitely is NOT a homosexual disease.

      And as for "bizarre purposes," one need only look back at the various erotic sculptures from ancient civilizations to see that sexual practices have been as adventurous (or bizarre) then as they are now. There is nothing new when it comes to sex.

      Brian

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      Brian

      I was responding to JCLs comments factually.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 17 months ago from Pennsylvania

      Oztinato,

      You seem to be hung up on the subject of human feces, which is way off topic. I am going to end this string of discussion with this point: all sex carries with it the risk of disease, ALL SEX, so to continue to harangue against sex that you seem to think is indigenous only to gays is a hangup that I do not share, nor do I condone. Your point has been made that you think anal sex is offensive...then don't participate in it. But, just as many heterosexuals participate in anal sex as do homosexuals. There are many diseases caused by having sex, but since the world is still making babies, apparently there is something to be said about the fact that it is still going to be an act that people who enjoy each other are going to engage in, along with ALL the variations that they enjoy. Should people practice good hygiene before and after? Yes. But, you have argued a point long enough that you think anal sex is wrong, and therefore, homosexuality is wrong. Homosexual orientation is genetic coding and is NOT based on a desire for anal sex, which is obvious from the fact that many homosexuals do not engage in it, and as much as I hate to do this, this topic is so far afield that it is time to end it.

      Brian

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      JCL

      cow dung is used as an antibiotic in India and has other health giving properties. The ash of burnt cow dung is sold in supermarkets and has acknowledged health properties.

      I think cow urine is actually bottled as medicine over there!

      Human feces in India on the other hand is one of the major causes of disease over there.

      Human feces does not share the reputation of cow dung and has recently been responsible for outbreaks of serious poisoning In Australia( from packaged frozen berries from certain Asian countries who use untreated human sewage as fertilizer.)

      Rubbing feces vigorously onto sex organs is not a good idea. There are many medical reports that concur etc. All indigenous cultures deposit feces well away from the central camping areas. All ancient and primitive sexual practices banned activity involving feces or animals (as outlined in my previous posts, anal sex was banned for both male and female and not just male/male.)

      Some of the major disease carried by human feces are : Adenovirus, Campylobacter infection, Coxsackievirus (hand-foot-mouth disease), Enteroviruses, E. coli infection, Giardia infection, Hepatitis A virus, Pinworms, Polio, Rotavirus Salmonella, Shigella, Tapeworms, and Toxoplasmosis

      http://www.drgreene.com/articles/fecaloral-transmi...

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      Some other points I wish to make here: There is a common fear termed "fecophobia." It is the assumption that all faeces are dangerous, not to be touched, to be avoided at any cost! It's an irrational phobia.

      Some fecal matter can be infectious with pathogens IF the originating individual is harboring or suffering the disease. In the majority of cases this will not be the case. Some variants of E.coli have acquired resistance to antibiotics, as I understand it, giving problems when attempting to find treatments. ( Also, there is a bovine version, Escherichia coli O157:H7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_O15... , that is pretty nasty, but not spread through the contact we are talking about here.

      Most excreta can be disposed of harmlessly and simply, by using an aerobic composting process. It can become an extremely valuable, safe fertiliser for the garden. Even when enteric pathogens are common in some parts of the world, proper processing and hygiene are not difficult to achieve.

      Sexually transmitted diseases are a special case, but not present in most humans. Specific precautions are necessary, of course.

      So, the phobia that creates such animosity towards homosexual people is very irrational and brought on by ignorance/prejudice/superstition.

      Next, to the very concept of disease. It has only been in the last 200-300 years that we have become accustomed to the idea of bacteria and other microscopic organisms creating disease. Before that it was blamed on widely accepted superstitious origins - gods, demons, etc. Such things as demons existing in the gut. All manner of beliefs were rife and contributing to illnesses being incurable.

      Today, when people use religion to promote superstition and vilification against minority groups, there is NO EXCUSE! It's the perpetration of ignorance. There are people in churches and administrations who love to use such popular concepts to bolster fear. Get people afraid and you can manipulate them. If there is anything that people love to do, tax it or ban it. Then you have them at your mercy.

      Even the use of the term "Un-natural" helps to promote fear and vilification.

      I rest my case.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      Thank you.

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      Jcl

      of course if people are living ethically responsible lives they are good people who shouldn't be condemned. I can vividly recall meeting some very cool gays who were high achievers. They were great people.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      Oztinato, did you word your post that was directed at myself with the intention of implying a negative towards homosexuality? Because that was how I interpreted it. And that was why my reply was worded in such a way.

      It is my objective to correct misunderstandings, because many people will jump at the chance to denigrate gays, myself included - and mostly they will speak from ignorance and prejudice. If you were not doing so, I apologise.

      So, if I or anyone similar, claim to lead a responsible life, causing no harm to anyone else, would you still proclaim me a sinner?

      You and I live in a country where laws have been put in place to protect homosexual people from discrimination. In some other countries, it's an automatic death sentence. On who side are you?

      We know on who's side Celafoe stands. In Nazi Germany he would be manning the ovens!

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 17 months ago from Pennsylvania

      Oztinato,

      I have not deleted any of your posts. If you wrote anything other than what has been posted here, I have not seen it. As to your comments, if you do not intend to denigrate gays by what you have written, then you might want to look at how you worded your statements, because that is how they came off.

      I have spent decades researching gay issues with regard to history, religion and cultures, and I have never seen any document pointing to a ban on homosexuality based on health reasons. In fact, understanding disease and the causes thereof was not exactly a strong point in historical times, even right up to the founding of the United States. If you study medical texts used in training doctors dating from the 19th century, you would be amazed at the thinking. We have come a long ways, but at no time was homosexuality banned due to health reasons. If you have some documentation to the contrary, I would love to see it. As one of my professors was fond of saying, I stand to be corrected.

      Brian

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      Han

      I've posted reasonable and inoffensive responses but you have apparently chosen not to print them! This is very unlike you and I'm mystified as to why inoffensive free speech has been edited here.

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      Han

      I don't understand your aggression as I'm actually agreeing with you that homosexuality was not banned by the Bible and other ancient cultures! I'm simply saying anal sex/sodomy was banned for health reasons. How on earth does that show that I'm supposed to believe all gay sex is anal?

      So where's the bone of contention?

      Is it undeniable Aids really took off like wildfire in USA gay communities and unprotected anal sex fell out of fashion? Is that a revolutionary statement? In my research all the inducators were pointing to unprotected anal gay sex as the chief cause of the rapid spread of aids as it allowed aids heightened access into the blood stream etc. I'm certainly not saying it actually caused aids.

      I find it uncharacteristic of you to misinterpret my assistance to your cause so blindly and with such emotion. Am I labelling you a sinner? No. Am I pontificating about self righteous condemnation of gays? No. So where's the stress coming from?

      If I state that anal sex is unhealthy and multiplies the chances of the spread of diseases there are thousands of doctors who would agree with me. That's not a condemnation of homosexuality at all.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 17 months ago from Pennsylvania

      Oztinato,

      You wrote:

      the fact is that the "traditional" meaning of sodomy and it's traditional banning from culture was in fact a way to control disease."

      Please cite a factual reference for such a claim. Having studied ancient cultures and history, I know of no such "fact." Here is fact: homosexuality was not banned from ANY culture until a religious war between the Nicenes and the Arians during the reign of Emperor Constantine in the 4th Century. At that time, the Nicenes used the pretext of religious reasoning to make laws that would remove the Arian eunuchs from the power they held with the emperor, and the agenda against homosexuals evolved from there. It was not a prejudice in the time of Christ, nor was it a prejudice in the time of ancient Israel.

      You wrote:

      Not just due to feces but actual biological reasons. Actual homosexuality was not banned from ancient or indigenous societies. Feces was always and still is a huge health problem. It is a known fact that AIDS was spread very quickly by "sodomy" amongst males in the so called developed world. The fragile badly strafed inner linings of the gay excretory system was a playground for AIDS. It wasn't just about feces, there were things that propelled AIDS forward. The human body wasn't designed for bizarre purposes. We can't bend it to our will."

      Fact: AIDS began in the heterosexual segment of the population in Africa from sexual contact with apes, made its way to the West and first came to light when the homosexual population started to seek treatment. But, it was not long before the heterosexual population started showing the same disease, and eventually the larger numbers were (and still are) among the heterosexual population. Blaming ANY disease on a segment of the population is clearly bigotry and flies in the face of science, since proper study is free of prejudice and seeks only fact.

      It is clear that you think that all homosexual sexual activity is based around anal sex, and all heterosexual sexual activity is based around "missionary position" sexual intercourse. If you are that far back in the cave of ignorance, you need to get out more.

      Brian

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      JCL/Han

      I don't understand your harsh tone here. Regardless of which sex practices anal intercourse didn't not stop it being banned in ancient and indigenous cultures. It multiplies stds and other diseases exponentially. Why is that supposed to be an indictment on gays? Research showed that anal sex among gay communities caused aids to explode.

      I'm not saying sodomy meant "gay sex" I'm saying it meant anal sex between anyone male or female. Sodomy in modern law means anal sex. Forget about whether it's male/male or male/female. The reason it was taboo was due to obvious health reasons and physical damage as outlined.

      In my reading it seems quite clear "sodomy" is well established as a normal male gay practice. Is that a revolutionary statement?

      It all means that the Bible and other ancient cultures banned sodomy/anal sex and not homosexuality. This statement is actually favourable to your cause so why the beef?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 17 months ago from Pennsylvania

      celafoe,

      You wrote:

      "You identify yourself a s "a child of god"

      Correct, and as God is my judge and not you, I will take the fact that my salvation comes from Him and not you to be sufficient for my life.

      Maybe you should re-examine the Lord's commandment to "Judge Not."

      You wrote:

      "I suppose you would say all are children of god since he is responsible for creating man kind. But that is of no value unless you have been born again and redeemed through submission to Christ, the ONLY WAY to enter the Kingdom and truly be a child of God."

      Funny, but I don't remember seeing you at the altar when I prayed to Jesus Christ and dedicated my life to Him. Maybe, once again, the commandment of the Lord would be wise to study..."Judge Not."

      You wrote:

      "all of the drivel you write is against the principles of Christ which mean you cannot be born again or a true child of God"

      Opinion is not fact. Please cite facts and show where anything I have written is false. Again, I am waiting for facts, not "drivel."

      You wrote:

      "why do you hate the scriptures?"

      How does my showing the truth of interpretation represent hating the scriptures? That is like saying that showing that the Easter Bunny is a myth makes me a rabbit hater. Why do you hate the truth?

      You wrote:

      "your bitterness and desire to inflict harm on the true followers of the true sons of God is reprehensible and downright evil and I rebuke you and your false teachings."

      Bitterness? The Bible says to know the truth and the truth shall set you free. I don't care if YOU want to live in the cave of superstition and darkness, I prefer the light of the truth. Bitterness? How does the joy of truth come across as bitterness? You truly are warped. And as for your rebuke, I am about as hurt as I would be if a donkey brayed at me. I consider the truth much more important than your desire to inflict myth and prejudice on the lives of others.

      You wrote:

      "you are NOT A child of God. you are an agent of satan and his hunanistic cut."

      Once again, there is only ONE opinion that matters to me on that issue, and that is God, there is only ONE truth that matters to me, and that is His word. But, I would be concerned, if I were you, about calling His children agents of Satan. You won't be answering to me about that one.

      Do yourself a favor and read the book. The truth will set you free. Or you can continue to shout your prejudices, myths and bigotries from the entrance to your dark cave. Ignorance is always afraid to study, afraid of truth, and it always revels in triumph by insult.

      Brian

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 17 months ago from Pennsylvania

      Jonnycomelately,

      Perfect answers in both of your posts.

      Brian

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      HIV AIDS throughout the continent of Africa has been rife in the heterosexual population. That is why there are so many children and young adults without parents now.

      Syphilis was rife throughout the world being spread through heterosexual union.

      To bring in your concentration on anal intercourse at this moment, Oztinato, is simply a "red herring." It seems you are trying to support a phobia towards homosexual persons with your spurious argument.

      Please let me remind you that not all homosexual persons indulge in anal intercourse. Many, even long-term partners, do not "do it." Yet, conversely, some heterosexual couples DO engage in it.

      So your argument is so, so pointless. Please come up with some facts that are free of prejudice.

      And you know already that the term "Sodomy" is a misnomer. Brian here has taken a lot of time and trouble to explain the real meaning of that account in the Old Testament. Would you please read the book before trying to spread more false information. Or at least read through his Hub. If you are of the Christian Faith, what danger are you in from doing so? Open minded, honest appraisal....that's all I ask of you.

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 17 months ago from Australia

      JCL

      the fact is that the "traditional" meaning of sodomy and it's traditional banning from culture was in fact a way to control disease. Not just due to feces but actual biological reasons. Actual homosexuality was not banned from ancient or indigenous societies. Feces was always and still is a huge health problem. It is a known fact that AIDS was spread very quickly by "sodomy" amongst males in the so called developed world. The fragile badly strafed inner linings of the gay excretory system was a playground for AIDS. It wasn't just about feces, there were things that propelled AIDS forward. The human body wasn't designed for bizarre purposes. We can't bend it to our will.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 17 months ago from Tasmania

      "...all of the drivel you write is against the principles of Chris..." If you consider such a statement as coming from a "Christ-like" principle, then Charlie I don't see anything you are saying as something I want to uphold in my own life.

      How much of Hanavee's hub here did you read through? Right through? 60%? 40%? 5%? Or was your mind so clouded by prior judgment that you scrolled straight down to the end of comments?

      What made you come to this hub in the first place? Were you so hooked on the term "homosexuality" that is what you found by searching? Why are you in particular worried about homosexuality? Something in you that's bugging you?

      Most reasonable, rational, loving people, of the Christian faith and of the Muslim faith (and most other religions, for that matter), don't worry about it. They have gay friends, warmly embraced, part of the group, members of the family, to be loved and cherished like anyone else. Provided there is no coercion, no promiscuity, no unwarranted assault, just like in any heterosexual situation. We all get along just fine together. The world is full of diversity and variety. It would be so, so dull if it were not.

      Generally, those individuals who have unbalanced minds, perhaps arising out of being molested or neglected in earlier days, tend to become violently passionate about some deep-seated, un-sorted baggage. And this can become manifest as a religious fanaticism, because it's a convenient way to avoid personal, in-depth honesty.

      If there's such a back ground to your own mind-set, and you feel that guilty complex eating away at you, please don't be afraid of it. Open up the windows and the skylight. Let in the fresh air of self-discovery. If your faith is as strong as you make it out to be, then there is resolution at the end of the tunnel for you.

      Meanwhile, please..... read Hanavee's book right through, beginning to end. Do it slowly, meticulously, give lots of thought to what is written, PLUS become aware of all the feelings which well up in you mind. Face those feelings, question everything that comes from your self.

      If you are not willing to do this, then the choice is yours. Continue to bludgeon the world with hatred and vitriolic judgment. You stand to be judged the same way, by the same values that you uphold. Beware.

    • celafoe profile image

      charlie 17 months ago from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth. between the oceans

      You identify yourself a s "a child of god". I suppose you would say all are children of god since he is responsible for creating man kind. But that is of no value unless you have been born again and redeemed through submission to Christ, the ONLY WAY to enter the Kingdom and truly be a child of God

      all of the drivel you write is against the principles of Christ which mean you cannot be born again or a true child of God

      why do you hate the scriptures? your bitterness and desire to inflict harm on the true followers of the true sons of God is reprehensible and downright evil and I rebuke you and your false teachings.

      you are NOT A child of God. you are an agent of satan and his hunanistic cut.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 18 months ago from Pennsylvania

      Jonny,

      Excellent points.

      Brian

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 18 months ago from Tasmania

      So, Rattle Zing, it sounds like the future can be rosy for you. You have been willing to ask questions. Were they asked of your self, personally?

      I get the impression the questions might have been bugging you. That is why you looked into this Hub. Is that a fair impression? Please correct me if it is not.

      Are you of the Christian faith? One of the most difficult things to do, as one of that faith, is to look from the outward concept of "God" whom we were always taught to "worship," on our knees, in supplication, with a sense of guilt and dread....and instead look inward, to "My self," my person, my mind, my emotions, my desires. To find an awareness of everything about "Me."

      If there is one Jesus that I, as a non-Christian, can contemplate and try to emulate, it's that Jesus who had all, 100%, of the emotions, trials and challenges of a human being. He, if we are to believe anything of the New Testament writings, went "into himself," and became fully aware.

      It is a process I can recommend.

      There is a method of meditation called Vipassana. It is probably the same sort of meditation that Jesus would have used. It transcends any faith or method of worship, without needing you to change from your faith at all. In fact it can enhance any faith.

      If you have ever said or sung those words, "Just as I am, without one plea," with a journey into your self those words will become vividly real and poignant. Watch your faith bloom.

      Best wishes to you.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 18 months ago from Pennsylvania

      Rattle Zing,

      Thank you for reading my article. I hope you read the book, because that book represents 40 years of an intense search, a scholarly search, for the genuine and unbiased truth. Finally, there is a book with all of the answers for every question this subject has ever brought up. I'm sure you'll enjoy reading this book and studying its wealth of information.

      Brian

    • Rattle Zing profile image

      Rattle Zing 18 months ago

      I really enjoyed this hub and thanks for pointing out the book. I might go check it out. I also wrote a hub about homosexuality and it contains content from the bible. I hope that you'll read it and comment on it. It would make my week. Here you go: https://hubpages.com/relationships/is-homosexualit...

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 20 months ago from Pennsylvania

      MVKilgore,

      When you write these words:

      "A great example of twisted "facts" to desperately get the Word of God to conform to mankind's wishful thinking on this topic."

      you repeat exactly what I am saying, and that is simply this - the Bible can only say what it actually means, not what we want it to say, and only through proper translation can we even begin to know what it truly says. We can trace the origins of anti-gay bigotry to the court of Emperor Constantine in the 4th Century, a bigotry that was man-made, deliberately introduced in a political move by the Nicenes to destroy the power of the Arians (who were predominantly homosexual eunuchs), and such bigotry neither existed in the time of Jesus, nor was it ever based in any of the known books of the Bible. So, you have a choice, twist the Bible to back a bigotry that is most definitely anti-Christian, or study to know what the Bible truly says, BUT, attempting to insert your anti-gay bigotry into the Bible is blasphemy...nothing less.

      I would also add, to your childish and hackneyed phrase that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, you apparently do NOT know your Bible very well. Read it again, then try a few more times. According to Genesis, man was created first! Then, animals. Then, man and animals lived together for quite some time on the Earth WITHOUT females. Take note of that, since I don't want you to lose sight of something that is plain even without a degree in Hebrew (which I have). It's right there in plain English. And after a period of time (centuries, perhaps? No one knows because the Bible DOES NOT SAY), God decided to give MAN (who was living with other men (mankind-plural, keep that in mind...mankind and his animals...man did not need females for anything...hmmm? makes you wonder) a "help meet." What is a "help meet?" A servant of sorts. Someone created less than man. That is the concept that remained in the minds of men throughout history, that women were created from the rib of a man, made with the status of "equal to cattle," and inferior in all ways to man. So, there's your biblical version of who came first, and it was more likely that it was Adam and Steve for quite some time before the first female was "made out of a man's rib." Love that biblical biology!

      Brian

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 20 months ago from Tasmania

      No Mr. Kilgore, you are the one in error, numerous errors in fact.

      First, you have been sucked in hook, line and sinker (I am sure you will understand this, being the hunter that you are), by evangelical religion's desire to control others. I have no criticism of you for wanting to believe in your Christian faith, just as Brian here has found a deeper belief since he took a bold, honest, clear look at the reality of scriptures. I don't personally hold that belief or faith, but fully respect those that do.

      Those who accept such scriptures blindly, without the courage to delve deeply and fully understand them, are very much in error...morally and intellectually. You don't have the courage of your convictions. You think blind belief is sufficient for condemning others according to your own prejudice.

      Secondly, also indicating your lack of courage, you have not taken the time to read either Brian's original Hub here, or the book which he has indicated. If you did read, without your prejudice, you would see that the term "Sodomy" is totally false in the traditional interpretation of it.

      Thirdly, if you think your God created Adam and Eve, then you must accept that "He" created me, too. And yourself. (I do not accept such a personal creation, under the control of such a god anyway, but just allowing your belief to prevail for now out of respect.) I am a bona fide member of the human species. My sexual orientation is simply none of your business. You don't know what I do, when I do it or with whom. And you will never know.....so don't ever presume you are in a position to accuse me or judge me. Please, just accept me as a brother, without passing judgement, as you are directed to do in your bible!

      At the same time, turn your whole attention to your own life, deal with any imperfections you have, then turn around and LOVE those around you, unconditionally......because that is the version of LOVE which you try to claim your "Saviour" has for you.

      Finally, please extricate your mind from that ugly, negative, debilitating notion of "Sin." Become positive in your view of this beautiful world. You only have one chance at it and that chance will pass with your death...final, finished, no more opportunity to behold and enjoy.

      Lift your mind and your heart out of the errors you are enacting in your own life. That is the one directive you can glean from the scriptures you seem so fond of.

      And go read that book without pre-judging it, "for god's sake!"

    • MVKilgore profile image

      M. Victor Kilgore 20 months ago

      A great example of twisted "facts" to desperately get the Word of God to conform to mankind's wishful thinking on this topic.

      Adultery and sodomy (among other sexual acts) are blatant SINS in God's eyes...period.

      God created Adam and Eve...not Adam and Steve, as a pattern for humanity's family as patterned after His family (Him and His church bride).

      God cannot abide sin, but desires that we be like Him as we are created in His image.

      Sodomy does not remotely line up with the perfect, spotless nature of God.

      You are in error my friend.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 20 months ago from Tasmania

      The book which Brian promotes here has clearly explained why the "traditional meaning for sodomy" is false. We should drop the traditional understanding and replace it with facts.

      The statement, "...anal sex was taboo as it spreads disease" is also false. The potential to spread disease, yes, but it no more has the potential to spread disease than vaginal sex. It all depends on whether disease-forming organisms are present. If there is none present, then no disease can be spread. In a book written about "Humanure," the term "Fecophobia" has been coined. Accurate information can help to dispel a phobia.

      False understanding itself has the potential to spread disease - that disease called Discrimination. It's very convenient to select a commonly-frowned-upon practice and then throw it at people we want to control. It's a human trait.

      Listening to, and learning about, other possible explanations can be tiresome. Changing one's understanding about a long-held view can be painful and sometimes embarrassing; loss of face; admitting error.

      Yet without the willingness to change opinion, one can be instrumental in cruel, unfair, evil treatment of those in a minority group of people.

    • profile image

      Olow 20 months ago

      How can we condemn for something that we don.t know. What you and I are reading are written by men like us. As much as we like. it is not something that came from the sky. Don't get me wrong. I believe in God because of the super complexity of our body design and of the laws that run the universe. We didn't create ourselves.

      On what bases God said that he chose some people over others and is it true? Why will God favour people who were not yet born over others who are praying to him all the time or is it something purposely manufactured to control people. Yet. These so called chosen people in the bible written by human beings like us, have been supplying weapons of mass destruction to the Boers in my country, South Africa where I am writing from, to help keep the genocide going in my country for many years. Look at the genocide in Palestine. Do we see anybody talking? The preachers were quoting the bible to burn the blacks in America alive. The hottest place in hell is reserved for those who keep silent in times of injustice. I have never harmed any human being, not even an ant. I try my best to be a descent human being and that is enough for me.

      For those who condemn Hanavee for being against books written for a purpose, should be very careful. In every two to three years we hear new scrolls found somewhere in Dead Sea. Come on, this is a joke. It is like telling to the American people every other two months that terrorists are coming. Just to keep people in fear.

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      Oztinato 20 months ago from Australia

      Of course the Bible does not condemn homosexuality.

      What is condemned is anal intercourse which is the traditional meaning for sodomy. Just as in many other different cultures anal sex was taboo as it spreads disease, but physical affection between males was rarely if ever banned.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 20 months ago from Tasmania

      @ SonOfSkrim201, I read from your profile that you are still in High School. That is a very good place, at an appropriate time in your life, to consider the emotional needs of people around you; people your own age, who will be trying to fit in with the majority of their peers.

      Feelings of being "different" can arise at any age, but particularly in late 'teen years. This is a time when questions of identity and the meanings of life can arise. When most friends and fellow students are showing an interest in the opposite sex, getting out and about, nights away together, flirting, etc. It's easy to chat with friends about "scoring" when you are heterosexual and they are too.

      However, when a guy or a girl does not feel they fit into that "normal" mode, it can be a very, very lonely life. That loneliness can be covered up, hidden, only for so long. It can be disguised to the point most other people would never suspect. But then, when alone and away from the crowd, that loneliness can become way too heavy to bear.....and you know from what "always exploring" has said in the post above, what that burden can lead to......a tragedy in the most extreme form!

      If you allow yourself to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest this information that comes from an old man who went through his young years knowing deeply such loneliness, I think you will be able give friendship to such a young person, somewhere along the way. You will be able, literally, to save a life. You do not need to change your own sexual orientation (even if that were possible, which it isn't), in order to help another person who happens to be gay. Just your kindly, caring consideration of that other person's needs is all that's required to show the "Love of Christ." Without wishing or intending that he or she "change." You personally can't, neither can he or she. And there is no need to.

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      Brian Gray 20 months ago from Pennsylvania

      SonOfSkrim201,

      Sorry I missed your comment when it was posted. Just saw it for the first time today. Your question, how would we populate the world if everyone was gay is based in false logic. Everyone will never be gay, because that is scientifically impossible. Sexual orientation is based in genetics, and it is no more likely that everyone could be gay than it is possible for everyone to be male, or to be Black, or blue-eyed. Genetics makes your assumption impossible. Further, if making babies is the requirement for love, then that means that everyone who is childless is required by you to remain loveless. Pretty absurd.

      You say that men and women were meant to be together, and I assume you mean by that statement that ONLY men and women can love each other. On what do you base that assumption? Are you basing it on the Bible? Because if you do, then you need to read the book I have recommended, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality." In this book you will find all of the proofs that the Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality, unless you are afraid to read the truth. If you think man and woman are the only possible combination, and you base that on your misinterpretation of the Bible, then how do you explain the Bible's version of Creation in which man was created, and only man and animals populated the Earth? Woman had not been created, and man lived with other men for a long period of time. It was not until much later that God then decided man needed a "help meet," not a lover, not a partner, but a "help meet," and He then formed a woman out of a man. Hmmmm? As is typical of the male chauvinist Middle East, where women have always been treated as equal to cattle, thus the male chauvinist definition of a woman as a "help meet," we find that women were not created to be man's equal, but as some object of servitude, and man and other men were living on the Earth together in relationships for quite a long time before God added women to the mix....as a "help meet." That is YOUR Bible, that is your BIBLE's version, so time for some updating of your thinking.

      Brian

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      Ruby Jean Fuller 20 months ago from Southern Illinois

      I have heard the remark, " Hate the sin but love the sinner. " The people I know hate the person. I am not gay but I know good people who are and they are not allowed to feel good about themselves. I wrote about a gay nephew who died of aids. I received emails ( In bold red ink. ) telling me how sinful he was, in truth he was a 22 year old who was ridiculed so badly by his own family, he left home. I attended his funeral and the family were in tears, my thought then and now, too late, too late. Thank you for sharing.

    • profile image

      SonOfSkyrim201 22 months ago

      One question: How would we populate the world if everyone was gai or lesbian? Man and woman were meant to be together, is this not clear to you?

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      Brian Gray 24 months ago from Pennsylvania

      Olo,

      Like so many other religions in this world, Christianity expects its adherents to go by faith on many things. Logically, most religions do not make sense. Mao Tse Tung once said, "Religion is the opiate of the masses." If you read my article published here on HubPages titled "Hell - Wishful Thinking?", you will find that even the concept of Hell that has been preached for so many centuries is man-made and flawed. But, and this is the big "BUT," what are the answers to the four questions I pose in that article, namely, Who am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going when I leave here? Theist or non-Theist, every person alive faces the end of life, be it dying early or living a long life, and what then? In my article titled "Does God Exist?", I wrote about my out-of-body experience that has served to keep me ever mindful of the four questions and the reality that there is a life beyond this current existence.

      If your religious or spiritual beliefs prepare you for all four questions, then you are well-prepared. With regard to ALL religious books, the Bible being no exception, these are items written by men, and they have many flaws. Can we learn anything from them? Yes. But, are they perfect? No. And as such, we need to seek Our Creator for what is the best path for us to fulfill our purpose for being here. If we have found the true path to Our Creator, then we will know it by the fact that we demonstrate love for our fellow human beings without exception, a tenet that Jesus taught.

      As for homosexuality not being condemned by the Bible, the book "Homosexuality,The Bible, The Truth," does indeed answer that question. I often say, if your Theology conflicts with God's reality, then you need to revisit your Theology. God loves His children, regardless of their sexual orientation, He made no mistakes, no one is worthless in His eyes, so we need to think long and hard when we are tempted to condemn anyone for the simple fact that they are different from ourselves. There is no godly justification for hatred and bigotry.

      Brian

    • profile image

      Olo 24 months ago

      Hanavee, thank you for taking your time to educate a lot of us. Although, I don't agree with you regarding homosexuality, I certainly respect your opinion. The problem with people is that they truly believe that they are reading the words of God. People think they are reading divine words when the words are deceptively written in old English like """Thou shalt not steal".

      People are brainwashed into believing that there are chosen people on this planet. Look at the record of those who claim to be chosen. I truly believe in God, but I have a problem with the writers who wrote the bible after Jesus was gone. No doubt, Jesus was a good man who tried to tell to people how to live a Godly life. He was not the son of God and never did he say he was. Read the Red Book , if you know what I mean. After all, we are all the children of God. May be in that sense , he was the son of God. Sadly, Jesus , who never harmed any human being was killed by those who refused to listen to him for many years.

      The Jewish people handed him to the Romans who indiscriminately killed him for no reason. Now all of a sudden they made him God while refusing to listen when he was a live. Why? Create a problem and find a solution. They have found the biggest making money business in the world. Look at the Vatican

      It is sin and somehow childish by the preachers to tell their audience that Jesus died for our sins and therefore we are saved when Jesus himself sadly could not safe his life. You go out and do all things that is against the true Christianity and somehow Jesus died for you and will save you is delusional. Man has fallen into this trap that was in the making since emperor Constantine of Rome. Jesus will go in front of God to answer questions like you and I when we all get there. Until then may God show you the truth.

    • profile image

      Olo 24 months ago

      Hanavee, thank you for taking your time to educate a lot of us. Although, I don't agree with you regarding homosexuality, I certainly respect your opinion. The problem with people is that they truly believe that they are reading the words of God. People think they are reading divine words when the words are deceptively written in old English like """Thou shalt not steal". I truly believe in God, but I have a problem with the writers who wrote the bible after Jesus was gone. No doubt, Jesus was a good man who tried to tell to people how to live a Godly life. He was not the son of God and never did he say he was. Read the Red Book , if you know what I mean. After all, we are all the children of God. May be in that sense , he was the son of God. Sadly, Jesus , who never harmed any human being was killed by those who refused to listen to him for many years. The Jewish people handed him to the Romans who indiscriminately killed him for no reason. Now all of a sudden they made him God while refusing to listen when he was a live. Why? It is The childish silly notion....Man has fallen into this trap that was in the making since emperor Constantine of Rome

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      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Savvydating,

      Thanks for your very insightful comments. It's always a pleasure to read a comment from an enlightened reader.

      Best to you,

      Brian

    • savvydating profile image

      Yves 2 years ago

      Sounds like a worthwhile book. Furthermore, your synopsis is excellent. (No surprise there) My understanding about homosexuality, as it relates to the Bible, is that the Romans were having a whole lot of sex in honor of the fertility gods. Consequently, the Romans gave themselves permission to do anything with anyone whether one had same sex attraction or not. However, the Jews, believing in one righteous God, committed themselves to a higher standard, and as such were opposed to Roman sexual/religious rites, in which "fornication" had gotten way out of hand, so to speak.

      At any rate, unless one is proficient in Greek and Hebrew and also keeps up with the latest in archeology, it is difficult indeed to translate certain aspects of the Bible. If the author of this book you have recommended has truly discovered the truth, then he has accomplished a good work!

      All I know is that scientists have discovered that the brains of gays and lesbians are wired differently than their heterosexual counterparts. Long story short, they have no attraction to the opposite sex---at all. Consequently, in my mind, there is nothing to condemn. Indeed, it would be unfortunate if gays chose to have sex with someone to whom they are not attracted. In my mind, that would be immoral.

      Thank you for writing this wonderful piece in such great detail.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Vinniestuff,

      If you read the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," in the chapter titled "The Evolution of Sexual Mores," you will find that anti-homosexual bigotry began during the reign of Roman Emperor Constantine in the 4th Century. It began as a political movement and evolved to what it is today - an unfounded bigotry and prejudice that has no basis in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anti-homosexual bigotry did not exist in the time of Christ, and it is an invention of man, not a teaching of God.

      I hope you'll read the book. You'll be glad you did.

      Brian

    • profile image

      Vinniestuff 2 years ago

      I came across this site as result of questioning things. I never heard of this book before but I am aware of the bible. I use a 1599 Geneva Bible a lot of times which says verses differently the ones quoted above.

      1 Cor 6:9 Says

      Know ye not the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?. Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor wantons, nor buggerers, nor thieves, nor covertous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God.

      Regarding the Sodom and Gomorrah Story, I have read the book of Jasher (19) which said differently about this which was not exactly homosexuality it was more mistreating the visitors ie attempting to the rape the angels. However according to the book of Jasher people in these places were not allowed to help the visitors if they did they were judged and killed for breaking the laws by helping the poor and visitors with gruesome punishment.

      I have heard many Christians equating Pedophillia to Sodom and Gomorrah times.

      Regarding Levitius 18, If I told a Christian I am born in the Wrong Era and have an old Testament ways. Many of them will reply that is not good as the OT was supposed to be fulfilled by Jesus. Why are they still using Lev 18:22 for this matter and no other verses to condemn such as fish and etc.

      Another thing I do question if Homosexuality was a Sin why is it condemned in many False religions or Cults. Mormons, Jehovah's witness and many more are the ones that will comdemn homosexuality with act of excommunication and many commit suicides too.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Night Zamora,

      As you read further in my book, it is all going to begin to make more sense, and you will ultimately come to know that God loves all of His children, and He loves them just the way He made them. The only people who need to be ashamed are those who persecuted gays and lesbians and blamed their bigotries on God.

      God certainly led you to my book, and I hope that you will share this knowledge with others and help set them free, as well.

      Brian

    • Night Zamora profile image

      Night Zamora 2 years ago

      Hanavee,

      Thank you so much fir your loving and kind words. I love my KJV Bible and I have seen flaws in it many a time and this peobes evdn further to me that man has misinterpreted Gods true meaning because God is flawless and does not make any mistskes.

      I was able to finally purchase your book and i have already been blessed by it just from reading the first chapter. ill be starting the 2nd very soon and am looking forward to it.

      I have also confided to a very close friend of mine that is a SDA pastor and minister about the stuggles ive been going through and he too has said what you have in your book. I plead and cried and with an open heart asked our Father to show me the true path and to please give me a sign. That night my partner and i found so many answers to prayer including your book and the next day when i confided in my friend. God has put this peace on my heart and with your book, and studing with my friend and most importantly the Bible i can now share with others tha God loves us all and made us how and who we are to be and that He does NOT make mistakes.

      I cant thank you enoug for being a voic for our Lord and standing up to the darkness. If we never meet on this earth then on the new earth when God comes back again i will enbrace you as my brother and friend in Christ Jesus.

      God Bless,

      Your sister in God

      ~ Night ~

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      lambservant,

      And your proof that Leviticus was written at another time in history? If you read my book, I offer all the necessary proofs to show why my statement is correct, especially since we have the historical document of Cyrus of Persia and the decree he made which resulted in the return of Jews from Babylon. My statement is proven by supporting verses in the Bible, as well as by historical documents. The date of the return is very easy to understand, as well as the many Babylonian references in Leviticus, so I'd love to hear your proofs to the contrary. This should be very interesting.

      Brian

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      Alan 2 years ago from Tasmania

      That's ok, Lori. After writing so many Hubs, mainly to do with your obvious enviable knowledge of christian things, I must presume you know all there is to know about homosexuality.

      When you have read all through that book of Brian's and are willing to discuss each and every aspect -- and willing to consider, at least, alternative points of view -- then we can listen to your favourite answers as a Christ-centred person.

      There is a human need behind every argument, yours included.

    • lambservant profile image

      Lori Colbo 2 years ago from Pacific Northwest

      Good grief, after taking several minutes to rapidly scroll through the comments without reading them, except a few, I can't remember what I was going to say! I'm sure there was lots of bickering along the way between parties, something I have no desire to do! Witholding my opinion on homosexuality, you lost your credibility rather quickly with me when you said Leviticus was written after the 70 year Babylonian captivity! I had quite the chuckle!

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Night Zamora,

      Whenever I think of all the people who have had to live life unfulfilled, it saddens me. Someone once said, "Sad is the person whose happiness is measured by the permission of others." It is time you stopped letting others tell you what you are supposed to feel about the person you love.

      The Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality, and I should know, I spent forty years researching the answer to that question. God gave me the educational opportunities, and I believe He gave me the mission to do this so that His gay and lesbian children could live in freedom from the pain and suffering inflicted on them through ignorant people.

      With regard to versions of the Bible, they all have flaws, so as much as I love the Lord, I am ever mindful of what mankind has produced, even the Bible. It is a recording of human effort down through the ages to explain and try to understand God, so, there are problems here and there. Do we throw it out? No, absolutely not! The Bible has given us too much to not rely on it for some things, but the ultimate test is very simple - if your Theology conflicts with God's reality, then you need to re-examine your Theology. God loves His gay children (God's reality), and if someone wants to make the Bible say contrary (their Theology), then that person is misinterpreting the Bible in an attempt to back their bigotry and prejudice. Of such, God is NOT the author.

      God did not make any mistakes when He made you. Celebrate the person He made you to be, and start enjoying that wonderful gift.

      Brian

    • Night Zamora profile image

      Night Zamora 2 years ago

      Hi Hanavee

      I have stuggled with homosexuality for many many years. Im 33 now and i remember at the age of 5 thinking the girl next door was cute and that i wanted to date her. In telling my mother this she told me its wrong and not of God. I was raised in a SDA home. Reading the KJV of the Bible condeming gays to hell. I pretended to no be who i am for many years and in those years dispressed suicidal heartbroken that God is sending me to hell and so confused as to why i couldnt change when i plead and cried aloud to God with an open and willing heart to come into my life and change me if it be so sinful and damning. I never changed bug my faith in God wasnt questioned till a few days ago because i was terrified that my life partner who also loves God , and i wers going to hell and this is someting i with all my hert do not want to happen. Beggng God i asked Him to please show me the truth because when i study my Bible which i have since a child see contradictions that make no since esp when its supposed to come crom God and His Son Jesus Chirt of love and forgiveness and truth, i was lost. God is a loving and forgiving just God. He forgives all sin when we call on His name with an open and willing heart, so why not when i did so as a younger woman did He not take this so called sin from me? This is what i was so lost saddened and confused by. I begged Him again to show me truth, to show me a sign that i can be who i am amd still entr the gates of His Kingdom when He comes to take us home. I googled and your blog came up and i believe God is showing me someting thereore i will purchase this book and read it but i also want to know what translation of the Word of God is there thats closest to the actual scriptures that man didnt change and defile? I was raised KJV was but now im not sure because as i said there are contradictions in it.

      Please help me.

      Thank you and God Bless!

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jlpark,

      You are wise to just delete Joseph, because he is brainwashed and a fanatic for his religion. No matter what proofs you show him, he will not read them. He simply comes back with the same pre-digested pablum that his Jehovah's Witness cult forces on its members, as if ignoring your proofs and repetition of his church literature will somehow change his lies and distortions into fact. Sad, but I was once a fanatic for my religious denomination, too. Only God and a strong desire for truth led me out of that mind set.

      Regarding AIDS, it belongs to no particular orientation. Just like measles, anybody can get it.

      Brian

    • jlpark profile image

      Jacqui 2 years ago from New Zealand

      Hanavee - thanks for this hub. I'm currently giving the book a read! I let you know what I think. I do however recognise on of the reviews as terribly similar to comments I've had on one or two of my hubs, and others have to.

      I have tried not to engage Joe, cause I've heard the arguments more than once - but I do have to answer to the AIDS thing.

      The most at risk of contracting HIV - are those who think it CANNOT happen to them. Most gay men are very much aware of the risks of sex without a condom, yet many straight couples still think it's a 'gay disease' - and therefore it can't happen to them. It can happen to any of us, if we aren't careful. EVEN Lesbians - but we are at the lower end of the risk scale - it still pays to use protection if not in a long term relationship. SO if you insist on focusing on the risks gay men are possibly at, rather than the risk we are all at - you may miss protecting yourself.

      Hanavee - they do say that thing about the most vehement homophobes.... :)

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Johnny,

      I think Joseph has sexual hangups that do not allow him to enjoy himself sexually. He is all over the internet inserting his rabid anti-homosexual diatribes, which certainly suggests to me that he is extremely repressed sexually.

      Brian

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 2 years ago from Tasmania

      Joseph, from my involvement with his arguments in another hub, must hold to the teachings he has received from his Jehovah's Witness membership. He is not allowed to depart from their philosophical position without endangering his own acceptance within that organisation. Therefore, I suggest, his opinions will always be skewed.

      In Joseph's first posting here, he uses the phrase: "...how can I put this cleanly..." This, as far I can understand, highlights the inability of some christian people to speak openly and frankly about sexual matters. It's as if "God" does not like us talking anything about sex, because it's of the devil. Once again, his opinions are skewed.

      The history books will hopefully give very clear and honest accounts of those pseudo-religious personalities who have tried to convey their "goodness" and "forgiven" status on the outside, open-to-public-view version; yet on the inside, out-of-public-view, they have wallowed in secretive satisfaction for themselves, usually with a relatively unwilling victim involved.

      I am talking about hypocrisy.

      @Joseph, I suggest you learn to live your life without worrying about what others might be doing, behind closed doors, with complete freedom and mutual agreement. Instead, learn to spot where love is, where it can be supported and nurtured. You will not get much of this from any fundamentalist church, yours in particular. They are more concerned with fear, guilt, retribution, covering their a...es, false pretences.

      Sir, I am homosexual. I have never, ever, desired any sexual encounter with a female. I do not say this with any sense of wanting sympathy from you or anyone else. I cannot tell you why I am this way, just that I am. Whether I have ever enacted my homosexual interests/desires is no business of yours or of anyone else. It's just something that is private and sacred. You are not entitled, nor do you need to know.

      Suffice to say my orientation does NOT make me evil. If that ancient man of 2000 years ago was here now, he would not condemn me either, so you are out of place if you imply the opposite.

      I have talked too long.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Josephus,

      Magna res est vocis et silentii temperamentum.

      Moot - please cite the dictionary that gave you this false definition.

      Brian

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      @Hanavee

      "AIDS is NOT a judgment of God"

      When did I ever claim it was?

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      @Hanavee

      "You need to go back to school"

      Medice, cura te ipsum. Moot also means "not worth talking about : no longer important or worth discussing."

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Joseph,

      I love it when someone who is a non-scholar like yourself tries to sound like he knows what he is talking about. I have no mercy with bigots, because for every homosexual who has committed suicide, driven there by false "christians" like yourself, there is another life that people like you are responsible for shortening, another life for which you will give account when you face your Creator.

      "Moot" - definition: debatable, doubtful. You need to go back to school instead of spending your entire day cruising the internet for homosexuals to persecute with your false doctrine of hate and lies. Crawl back into your cave, troll.

      Your science is right out of the super-bigot playbook. It is a known fact that AIDS first began in the heterosexual community in Africa, was brought to the U.S. by a bisexual, transmitted to the gay population, and since we first became aware of the disease when the gay community started showing the symptoms, the facts always remain that it began in the heterosexual community, and no one's sexual orientation is cursed by God just because they have AIDS. AIDS is NOT a judgment of God, it is as horrible as any other outbreak, and is just as possible as others. Your analogy is grasping at straws to condemn the people you hate - homosexuals. Why don't you go after heterosexuals now, since Ebola has ignored homosexuals and attacked only heterosexuals. Using your stupid logic, this must be the "straight plague."

      You are sick and twisted! One hell of a sad person!

      Brian

    • Joseph O Polanco profile image

      Joseph O Polanco 2 years ago

      The whole issue is moot. After all, at the rate at which you're all infecting and killing one another, soon there won't be any gays left.

      AIDS spread so predominately in the homosexual culture because transmission of HIV (AIDS doesnt transmit, HIV does. AIDS develops from HIV) from males is a LOT higher rate than transmission from females. Here is the rate of HIV transmission as recorded by the CDC, by transmission type:

      http://1.usa.gov/WMI3rr

      "Receptive" means the person contracting HIV...how can I put this cleanly...is the "receiver" in the sexual encounter (typically female in hetero-sex). And "Insertive" is the "giver" (typically male in hetero-sex). Looking at vaginal sex, the female is twice as likely to contract it from a male partner with HIV, than a male is to contract it from a female partner with HIV. In anal sex (hetero OR homosexual), the one receiving the penis is ~8 times as likely to contract HIV from their inserting partner with hiv, versus the inserter contracting it from the receiver's HIV.

      So when you have a sexual pool of all males compared to a pool of males and females (~50/50 split statistically), of course the all male pool will spread faster. Because the transmission rates of anal is a lot higher than vaginal.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      I am amazed at the people who call themselves Christians, yet want laws passed that will allow them to deny service to customers whom they know to be homosexual. Here in the United States, it is hard to believe that we are in the 21st Century, and yet, people are trying to have laws enacted that would, as they falsely claim, "protect religious freedom," laws which would be nothing more than blatant attempts to legalize prejudice and bigotry. So, you own a store, but you don't want to have to serve homosexual patrons, because their "lifestyle" is against "your religion." Then, honestly, don't own a store. Your false "religion" has NOTHING to do with the civil protections guaranteed under law to ALL citizens of this country. I am beyond appalled at the people who think that their narrow-minded "religious" beliefs give them a right to be prejudiced and bigoted. This "my religious beliefs" hate blanket has demanded to be served for far too long. Time to call it what it is - false religion that has nothing to do with Jesus Christ and everything to do with ignorance and prejudice.

      Besides the fact that anyone who thinks that the Bible condemns homosexuality is completely wrong, even if you want to misinterpret the Bible to supposedly back such ignorance, Jesus Himself gave us the best example of what you can do with such unfounded prejudice. When He sat at the well and had the Samaritan woman give Him water to drink, Jesus violated every restriction put on Him by the Jewish religious leaders of His day, because they taught that Samaritans were unholy, filthy, so spiritually "unclean" that the mere presence of one meant that a Jew had to go bathe before being allowed to enter the temple. Being touched by a Samaritan would render a Jew "toevah," unclean, and here was Jesus saying, "To hell with such garbage. These are my fellow human beings." Jesus not only intentionally allowed the Samaritan woman to serve Him water from the very cup which she would have drank from, He was invited to come visit with the Samaritans, and the Bible informs us the He went home with them and spent three days with them.

      So-called "Christians" who want their prejudice enshrined in law are nothing more than self-righteous bigots who have nothing in common with Jesus.

      Brian

      A Child of God

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      Alan 2 years ago from Tasmania

      Rebecca, innocent ignorance can be forgiven, all the time you have no opportunity to learn different.

      I ask you to question whether such ignorance can be forgiven once you are exposed clearly to the truth.

      In relation to homosexuality, I put it to you that everything you ever thought you knew about it is full of errors taught to you by ignorant and prejudiced minds.

      If you really think you have Jesus/God on your side, and you feel that "He" definitely has you on "His" side, then surely you can come to no harm by exploring other aspects and points of view.

      So - I dare you! Read that book which Hanavee has mentioned. Read it carefully, thoroughly, prayerfully, honestly and humbly. Only then return to the prejudice you have put forward here in this hub.

      See if you opinions change in the light of real information, as opposed to bigotry and ignorance.

      If that man you say you worship was alive today, I think he would insist that you open your closed mind and listen to other points of view. It cannot hurt you.

      (Oh, and by-the-way), why did you come to this hub in the first place? How did you find out it talked about homosexuality? Does it say something about your own sexual orientation?

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Rebecca,

      The bottom line is this: God forbids heterosexuality, just like God forbids mothers from sleeping with their own sheep and God forbids cowboys to sleep with their horses as one would with a donkey. Just because you have a "desire" doesn't mean you should act it out. Heterosexuality is sick!!!

      Makes just as much sense as what you wrote, doesn't it, because what you wrote is based in ignorance and lack of genuine theological study. You would prefer to continue pushing the ignorant bigotries that you were taught rather than learn the truth, and the truth is that sexual orientation is not a choice, is not condemned in the Bible, and only bigots want to keep such prejudices alive. If you read the book, Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality, then you would see all of the proofs. This book takes every passage that has ever been used to condemn homosexuality and shows what the actual passage truly says. You need to read it and end your ignorant hatred of God's children who are simply different from yourself.

      The Bible was used to condemn Black people, the Bible was used to condemn women, and if we still followed what some so-called Christians tried to tell us the Bible said, all Blacks would still be slaves, and women would not be permitted to own property, let alone vote and have equal rights. It wasn't too long ago in this country that this was the law of the land, and with a name like Gutierrez, you would not have been considered worthy of much in this country, either. Amazing what getting rid of ignorant prejudices can do for people's lives.

      Brian

      A Child of God

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      Rebecca Gutierrez 2 years ago

      The bottom line is this: God forbids homosexuality, just like God forbids fathers from sleeping with their own daughters and God forbids men to sleep with animals as one would with a women. Just because you have a "desire" doesn't mean you should act it out. Homosexuality is sick!!!

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss wrote:

      "So because I shared the scriptures you are attacking scriptures this is clear who you are attacking..."

      No, Kiss, you are most certainly NOT sharing scriptures. You are posting unfounded and ignorant bigotry that is totally unsupported by anything in the Bible. You can post the entire Bible on here. Quoting verses does not mean you know what they are truly saying. The Devil has you beat. You are an empty parrot reciting verses that you wish backed your stupid bigotry. The Devil KNOWS what those verses mean, and they do not mean what you wish they did. Satan is a better scholar than you, which shows how low you are. At least Satan studies. You merely listen to bigots and parrot what they say.

      Sharing scriptures? Baloney! You've shared your last bigoted post. Have fun writing what I am going to delete.

      Brian

      A Child Of God

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      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Let's look at the idiocy of Kiss and Tales:

      He wrote: "Well if that is the result of the truth being spoken...."

      No, Kiss and Tales, you have yet to speak the truth. All you write here is bathroom graffiti, the product of a lazy and perverted mind that cannot stand the real truth, because real truth would require learning to respect others than your small-minded self.

      Kiss and Tales wrote: "I am not obligated to please no human."

      What you really mean is that you have your own permission to be as ignorant as you want to, and you don't owe anybody the requisite of growing up and being a contributing member of the world of human beings. You would rather hover down there in the world of pig-brained cave dwellers and call yourself "Special."

      Yep, your grammar shows your IQ. "Not....no...?"

      Kiss wrote: " So you or Hanavee can do as you please it has never bothered me then and it does not bother me now."

      Really? Then why do you keep coming back here? You're like bad gas. You offer nothing of value, and your presence is disgusting.

      Kiss wrote: "Maybe you should should ask your self why does this man have this control over you as to speak and represent on a issue that is clearly condemn by God."

      First of all, if you read the book, you would know that God does NOT condemn homosexuality. But, then again, study is beneath you. Maybe you should ask YOURSELF why you refuse to read the truth. Maybe you should ask YOURSELF why you think reading the truth is inferior to clinging to false doctrine and ignorance.

      Kiss wrote: "The truth never changes it stays the same. It is the lie that changes for people's convenience ."

      The truth never changes, but people's deliberate attempts to change the word of God, such as you do, to fit their hate-filled ignorant agenda, will always attempt to pose as truth and light. The Bible is not interpreted in your desire, but in truth, and if you cannot study the truth, and you cannot stand the truth, then you are a liar who deals in lies and is proud of the hate and ignorance his misguided attempts generates.

      Kiss wrote: "...that is why my post will always speak the same words of truth based on Gods words."

      FALSE. Your posts will always speak YOUR personal ignorance based in what ignorance was handed down to YOU from other equally intelligence-deprived bigots. Your lack of proper training in the Bible, your obvious lack of a good education, your obvious hatred of others who are different from you, all show that you are the farthest from truth anyone can be and still be on this planet. Your ignorance is not of God and is nothing to be proud of.

      Kiss wrote: "You are rejecting it for another imperfect human as yourself."

      I have to laugh. We could word this thusly: Kiss is rejecting God and truth for the bigotry handed to him by another equally bigoted person.

      Do yourself a favor,Kiss, and peddle your bull crap to other cave dwellers like yourself. People here at least know how to read.

      Brian

      A Child Of God

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      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      So because I shared the scriptures you are attacking scriptures this is clear who you are attacking . Reference Bible Ro 3:4 Never may that happen! But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, even as it is written: “That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged.”

      Say what you will but God judges all.

      2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.

      I accept this personally. And all his his written Authority.

      Not men.

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      You are a disgrace to the name Christian, because nothing you espouse represents even the remotest concepts of the love of Jesus Christ. Your love of bigotry and your attempt to blame it on the Bible are as shallow and transparent as the bigots who just shot up Paris in the name of their fundamentalist beliefs. You are absolutely no different from them. Your intentional misinterpretation of the Bible to make your ignorance sound as if it is correct is clear for every one to see. Everyone can see how you act just like those Islamic terrorists. You fool no one but yourself with your attempts to veil your ignorance with citations of Bible verses, especially when any person with any knowledge knows that you not only are misinterpreting those passages to suit your needs, you refuse to learn the truth.

      As I have said, you offer nothing new. You are merely a hopeless bigot who wants to blame the Bible for his hate. You can't find a single passage in the Bible that permits intentional misinterpretation and the refusal to learn. As I have said in the past, you are not worth wasting my time, so consider yourself warned. You will be deleted. God will deal with you in His own way and time, and trust me, He most certainly will. You will answer for all the lies you have told in His name. But I will deal with you the way I promised and did in the past. You never have anything new to offer, you refuse to study, you are the very definition of a fool...and I will simply ban you from here.

      Brian

      A Child Of God

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      Well if that is the result of the truth being spoken then let it be! I am not obligated to please no human. So you or Hanavee can do as you please it has never bothered me then and it does not bother me now.

      Maybe you should should ask your self why does this man have this control over you as to speak and represent on a issue that is clearly condemn by God.

      The truth never changes it stays the same. It is the lie that changes for people's convenience .that is why my post will always speak the same words of truth based on Gods words.

      You are rejecting it for another imperfect human as yourself.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 2 years ago from Tasmania

      I have read some of the discourses you share with other hubbers and your followers.

      All I can say is, your views are totally controlled by your religious bias and dogma. In that, you dismiss anything of a diverse nature in this world. You set your chosen view of your "God" up as the required view which everyone else must have.

      I agree with Hanavee when he says, in previous posts, that you come over as ignorant, bigotted and (in my estimation) beyond reasoning.

      I only come back to confront you when a new post from you in this Thread is flagged. Any new post from you only repeats the nonsense you have already expressed. So, Hanavee is welcome to delete yours and my posts from now on, thank you.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      Hanavee is not God, God's credibility is very important. It existed way before we were even thought of. I do not owe my faith to no human ,I owe my life and my actions to the one who gave me life.

      You have a dispute with the writer of the bible ,for it was written

      Reference Bible 1Co 10:11 Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived.

      Ro 15:4 For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.

      These are those times and the truth has been spoken.

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      Alan 2 years ago from Tasmania

      Kiss and Tales, is your "faith" strong enough for you to venture into reading the book which Hanavee speaks of? Every bit of what you have written above is covered in that book, extensively, clearly.

      Have you the courage, in view of the "faith" which you proclaim, to read that book? If you have not the courage, then how strong is your "faith," really?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      Well the reason there is this subject is that the bible clearly says with no doubt that it is condemned ,King James has it as abomination , King James Version Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

      That is very clear.

      Ro 1:27 likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error.

      King James Version Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

      “‘If a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing. They should be put to death without fail. Their own blood is upon them.

      This very clear not by man but by the inspired word of God!

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      Katie 2 years ago

      "I’m so tired of reading signs carried by protesters that say: “It’s about Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.” In fact, the creation story is as important to Adam and Steve as it is Adam and Eve. Gays and non-gays alike need to know and celebrate the truth at the center of this story. This creation story is primarily about God, a story written to show the power of God who created the world and everything in it. It teaches us that ultimately God is our Creator, that God shaped us, and that God said, “It’s good.” Isn’t this the heart of the text? Now what does the creation story say about homosexuality? Because the text says it is “natural” that a man and a woman come together to create a new life, some people think this means gay or lesbian couples are “unnatural.” They read this interpretation into the text, even though the text is silent about all kinds of relationships that don’t lead to having children: • couples who are unable to have children • couples who are too old to have children • couples who choose not to have children • people who are single Are these relationships (or lack of relationships) “unnatural”? There’s nothing said here that condemns or approves the love that people of the same sex have for each other" -Rev Dr. Mel White

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      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      For people to teach that others are intrinsically damaged goods, solely because those other people are different from themselves, that is the true sin. But, to add to the sorrow and pain of others by teaching that a specific group of people is condemned by their Creator, and do so completely because this other group of people does not fit into the mold of one group of people, thus, heterosexuals setting themselves up as God's only creation, is a genuine abomination. It judges all homosexuals as unworthy of the love of their Creator, separates them erroneously from the love of God, and makes true sinners of the heterosexuals who do so. The Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality, bigots do, and there is a great gulf between God and bigots.

      Brian

      A Child of God

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      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Lynne,

      In the passage in Leviticus 18:22, the word used is "toevah," meaning to be ritually impure. I have a degree in Hebrew and Greek, so I don't need Strong's to help. I have the original text right on my desk. The word describes the ancient Israelite custom of being considered "unclean" and, therefore, making it it improper for an observant Jew to enter the temple until that person had bathed in the tikvah, the ritual bathing pool at the outside perimeter of the temple. The word does NOT mean detestable or abomination. It cannot mean what it never meant, and it only referred to ritual cleansing under ancient Israelite customs. If a person was toevah, unclean, they merely bathed in the pool before entering the temple. Nothing more, nothing less. There were lots of man-made rules for permitting people to enter the temple. For example, if a woman had a baby, she was "toevah" for 33 days if the child was a male, 66 days if the child was a female. She was NOT a sinner, just because she had a baby, she was "unclean" in the eyes of a bunch of men who made up rules for entering into the temple.

      I don't have to go somewhere else in the Bible to see what the word toevah means, and I especially do not have to go to Ezra 9:11, where Ezra calls the land "ritually unclean" and in need of ritual purification, to understand the meaning of the word. The word "sinner" did not exist in the time that Leviticus was written, nor did the term "salvation through belief in Jesus." Also, the word "homosexual" did not exist, nor "heterosexual." You need to read the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," and you will see that the entire subject of Leviticus 18:22 is thoroughly explained using proper translation from the original Paleo-Hebrew, as well as a thorough presentation of all the facts surrounding the writing of Leviticus and the historical information that is now available to us.

      One thing is very clear, the word toevah does not refer to anyone as being out of favor with God, condemned to Hell, or in need of salvation, the latter being impossible, because salvation refers to a practice of the New Testament centuries in the future. Homosexuality was common in the days of the ancient Israelites, even common in the days of Jesus, and not once is the sexual orientation condemned. Read the book before you comment. I am not going to give you a private tutorial. All of the proofs are in the book.

      We may all be sinners in need of the saving grace of Jesus Christ, but we are not sinners because of the color of our skin, the nationality of our birth, the color of our eyes, or the sexual orientation determined by our genes. And people who love to lump homosexuals in with activities that are "choices" commit a sin that is more abhorrent that merely being "ritually unclean." Check your prejudices, sister, and find out where they came from, because they were taught to you by people who cannot justify their bigotries.

      Brian

      A Child of God

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      lynne 2 years ago

      Just as an fyi.....(and I didn't read all the comments,wayyy too many, but I hope this info helps you in some way.)

      The word, "ritually unclean" or "ceremonially unclean" is Strong's Hebrew word #2931 (as an adjective) and it is used 88 times in the Bible. You can find an example of it in Lev 5:2, 15:2. The root Hebrew word, #2930 means "to become unclean" in a verb tense and you can find an example of it in Lev 12:2 (used 161 times in the bible). And #2932 using it as a noun.

      In Lev 18:22 the Hebrew word used, toevah (toebah), is Hebrew word #8441 and it used 117 times in the Bible and is used to describe something detestable or an abomination. It comes from the root Hebrew word ta'ab (#8581) meaning "to abhor".

      In Ezra 9:11 you can see the use of both words in question ( unclean and abomination ) .

      We are all sinners - even Jesus said in Mat 5:22, that even if we call someone a "fool" we are liable for judgement. So the whole world has stuff to work out ;-) . I pray that the Holy Spirit comes and helps us all see His Truth in all things. God Bless.

      Lynne

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      Tony Olow 2 years ago

      Friends, religion is a major business today. These preachers who are basically in business try to tell you the sky is falling as though they are plugged into God, when in reality, the source of their preaching is from a collection of historical documents that were written, rewritten and rewritten by men of their time. Just go back in history and count how many people died because everyone wanted his opinion or what he claimed that he heard from Jesus be included in the bible. Blood was shed to force people believe what these men under the order of kings and emperors, wrote in the books we call today "Bible". Yet, people think they are reading the words of God. Men are fallible, God is not.

      Christians used Paul's words to justify lynching Blacks. "Christians" sang hymns at the lynchings of Blacks for the crime of being Black...all based on the interpretation of the Bible, and all of them going home feeling holier. When did the Bible change? No wonder the Church is dying off.

      Jesus was a Prophet and a good man of his time. No more no less. He always preached to do good things and ask God forgiveness (not him). Never did he say that he was the son of God or he will die for us. He knew that he could not save anybody nor was he able to save his own life. All of these buzz words we are hearing today from preachers like "you are saved, born again christian", are fabrications added into these hundreds of different bibles flying everywhere and written by wicked people of different agenda.

      Are you telling me that these wicked rulers or presidents or kings will go unpunished for the pain and suffering they had caused to millions of human beings, because Jesus died for them. If that is the case, then there is no religion. How stupid can we be to believe these nonsense? Let me tell you this once and for all. Each one of us is accountable for his deeds when we all get there including Jesus. You go out drink all night, commit adultery, murder or abuse other human beings and expect to go to heaven because Jesus died for you! Really? He has his own problems to wary let alone saving someone else. Paul preached and was 100% sure that Jesus will come back during his time, and yet we are still here and no sign of Jesus coming back. You explain it to me!

      Tony

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      Brian Gray 2 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Matthew,

      No, it is most definitely NOT sad that I do not embrace my father's prejudices and bigotries. The Lord certainly delivered me from such ignorance, and for that, I am eternally grateful.

      The Bible commands us to learn the truth, because Truth sets us free. The anti-homosexual myth began with a political movement in the 4th Century under Emperor Constantine, and from that, it was embellished and added to until the modern-day, anti-homosexual ignorance became what it is - a giant, destructive poison that needs to be eradicated through proper education.

      My father was a Fundamentalist preacher, and so was I, but the difference is that he was raised in ignorance that was celebrated, and I was led by God to challenge those ignorances. Once, many years ago, I was called to preach at a friend's church in Pittsburgh. My friend, by the way, was Black, and he was also a former gang member in an inner-city crime ring. God changed his life, and he became a minister in the Church. I spent the weekend in his home, preaching in his church, and enjoying the company of all his family and friends. When I got back to my home, my father said to me, "You go upstairs and take a bath. You smell like a nigger." I was stunned and shocked. Here was a man that I thought was a "man-of-God," who would have a pure heart and mind from serving the Lord, and he had just judged my friends as totally unworthy of life...because of the color of their skin. How is this supported by the Bible? It is NOT! Yet I cannot tell you how many times I have heard ignorant and prejudiced White people tell me that anti-Black bigotry is backed by the Bible. Their interpretation is extremely flawed and based in intentional misinterpretation. People want the Bible to back their prejudices, but I often tell people, if your Theology conflicts with God's reality, then you need to re-visit your Theology.

      God did not make Black skin to show a sign of inferiority or lack of worth; He made every skin color for His personal reason, and woe be to those who have inflicted harm and sorrow on people just because those people are different.

      The same goes for sexual orientation. God made all of the variations, and it does not matter to Him what excuse we come up with - inflicting pain and suffering on His children, whom He loves just the way He made them, is something for which those people are going to have to answer to Him. I know my Bible better than you, I have a degree in Greek and Hebrew, have read the Bible through completely many times, and I have done decades of intense study, not to mention the degrees I have earned, so I am not engaging in wishful thinking when I say that the Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality. The Bible absolutely does NOT, but what it does condemn is hatred and prejudice, unfounded ignorance that is used to spread bigotry that divides families from their children, children from the love of their families, and ultimately, has even caused the deaths of countless thousands. God will be the judge, but I would not want to stand before Him guilty of spreading hatred and bigotry all because I refused to give up my taught prejudices.

      The Bible does NOT back your prejudice. If you claim to be a true Christian, then it is time you unlearned your wrong Theology.

      Brian

      A Child of God

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      Alan 2 years ago from Tasmania

      matthew, you are judged already, with your ignorance, your inner guilt over what you are doing in your own life.

      Why did you even think about this subject, that you had to look into this hub? Was it not that guilt which you have felt so long in your life?

      And you have tried to use scriptures to both justify that guilt, and to seek to condemn others hoping it will assuage you of your own guilt.

      Well, it does no good, my friend.

      There is no need for any guilt when one person loves another person, regardless of his/her gender. Love is Love. And if you are genuine, you will read and re-read that passage from Corinthians until the full truth of it has sunk into your brain.

      The real truth is that you are responsible for your own conduct in life, not that of anyone else.

      What two other individuals do in their own lives, between themselves, is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

      Attend to YOUR own business..... that is the limit of your responsibility.

      Beyond that, open your heart, love yourself, don't hate yourself. Don't stop until you can honestly say you are right with your god.

      If you really believe that there will be a judgment day, it has already come to you. It is right here and now.

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      Matthew 2 years ago

      I'm sad knowing that you can still embrace what your dad condemned years back. The old man was not mad to have condemned gay. What is wrong in you is your hermeneutics. You have allowed wrong information into your thought. The number of people you misled as a result of your post will stand against on the judgement day.

      Think about it, good day.

      matthew

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      Brian Gray 3 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      You are blind to understanding and pretty much a waste of everyone's time. Must be a lonely world in which you live. You completely do not see your wretched blindness. I don't care how many people want to believe the world is flat, you included. My proving them wrong does not make me arrogant, wrong, or against God. Your excuses run exactly parallel to the logic used by the Taliban to execute those who would show them the light of truth. Like the Taliban, you darken your world with fallacies that were handed down to you, and like the Taliban, you want the world to operate in THAT mold and will accept nothing that speaks contrary to your beliefs. You most definitely will never take the time to learn anything new, and that is exactly like the Taliban. Proud of their ignorance, you do the exact same. They teach that no one should listen to music under penalty of death, and they refuse to listen to the fact that listening to music is not against the will of God. You have made your world of illusion, now live in it. I do not have time to waste with foolish people.

      You are a dinosaur of ignorance, a true waste of time. I will begin deleting your posts from here out. I have better things to do with my time than to talk with a retarded bigot. You are beyond help. Go talk to your mirror. Trust me, if you waste your time coming on here, it will be a waste of your time, not mine. I will simply delete your posts. Go ahead, try me. Peddle your poison somewhere else. You will definitely be deleted. Your meter has expired.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Those are not my words I do not cuss , or name call or use bad language, you even twist my words to fit your purpose of statements. Wow how far will we go !

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      So you end again the same lines ,and you just mis worded my words. I said why are you saying every one is wrong when they do not agree with your hub on the subject.

      People believe in the word of God that should be respected as it is. But you want to create a another meaning that fits you. I could do the same. But it would not change the mind of God. He would still exercise his judgement as he has spoken. We can not change God's actions even when you change the meaning.

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 3 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      You accuse yourself with every word you write. You wrote:

      "Why is everyone wrong ..."

      Yes, why is it that only your religious views are correct, and the rest of the world is damned?

      You wrote:

      "...you never have admitted to anyone a good point ."

      Exactly how you operate. You have described yourself to the letter. Look in the mirror and read the words you wrote. You have judged yourself accurately.

      And you wrote:

      " Really you are in darkness from your own truth. Because you have closed all reasoning off other then your own. "

      Amen, that's you. I have said that over and over, but it is only possible for you to see how you do this if you read these words to the mirror. Absolutely YOU!

      But here's the real winner. You wrote:

      "And we all know it is impossible to be right all the time."

      Here is an example for you. Many centuries ago, people thought and teachers taught that the world was flat. What changed? Did the world suddenly become a sphere? If the world was always round, then what was truth when the teachers of the Church required all people to subscribe to the belief that the world was flat? Was the Earth flat? No! But the Church taught that it was. Did this misinformation come from the Bible? No. But that did not stop the Church from decreeing that it did. Theologians and biblical scholars wrote books, gave lectures, and all of their drivel was false - the world was NOT flat. People were tortured and persecuted by the Church for daring to question, let alone to believe, that the world was other than flat. What is truth? That which can be verified by fact, not that which is merely believed or taught as fact. Anyone can make up a "fact," and they can pass that fact on to other generations. It takes questioning to uncover the truth. Truth can ALWAYS stand to be questioned, because it is made of reality. Lies will always fall under close scrutiny, because they are made of illusion.

      Why are you afraid to study the proofs that show that the Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality? I will tell you why. It is all because your beliefs are all you have. They form your bond with other like-minded individuals, people you thought were holy because they often railed against the "reprobate homosexuals." And, just like your group, those who once taught, with utmost religious zeal, that the world was flat had to die off, because they could never doubt their beliefs, you may never see the light either. You may go to your grave steeped in ignorance of fact, believing the lies that the Devil wrote in order to separate people and sow discord. What tears families apart? What causes people to commit suicide? What causes some bigot to murder an innocent gay person? Lies, all inspired by the Devil, that some people were born defective, were zeroes unworthy of the love of God...and you bought it. Without questioning, you bought it. And because this lie feels so good, you surround yourself with others who teach the same lie, because it makes you all feel good, slapping each other on the back and cheering each other on...all while God watches your mockery of His creation. You have been offered the chance to read the facts, but you choose to keep believing that the Earth is flat. That ignorance feels so good, so reassuring, it's the world you were raised in, and you just cannot bear to see it change. So, like the Flat Earth Followers, your kind will simply have to die off like the dinosaurs of bigotry and hatred that you are.

      Everyone who has read the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality" has come away knowing the truth, because that book deals in verifiable fact, correct usage of the original languages in the Bible, historical data and so much more...all facts, unlike what you push, which is mere opinion and false arguments.

      Stay blind. You will answer to God, because He brought you here to have your eyes opened, and you refused to see. He brought you here to find His truth, and you clung, instead, to your bigotry, the very same bigotry that has caused so much pain and needles suffering to His children. He brought you here, because when you stand before Him at the Judgment, you will have no excuse for your sin of willful ignorance and all the wars your kind have caused.

      Brian

      A Child of God

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      My desire has nothing to do with my answers to you or others. Only God can do what man can not. I joined HP to write. But I think it is more important to write in truth and with good purpose. And I will keep writing and posting rather people agree or not just like you keep replying .

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      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Why is your view so limited, Kiss and Tales? How come that your boot kicks against others who have been liberated from your narrow, religious views? You obviously desire something better, otherwise you would not be visiting HubPages to find it.

      Are you kicking against what you perceive as my "lifestyle?" You don't know anything about it, as yet. But let me enlighten you a bit.

      In my life, I try to reduce my "footprint" as much as possible. I try to reduce my expenditure of resources, e.g., plastics, paper, aluminum, petrol, electricity, water. I have installed a small solar power system sufficient for my needs. I recycle my grey water and have installed a Humanure toilet system. Local timber is collected, sustainably, for use in my small wood stove. Recycling odd bits of junk into newer useful household and garden items, helps me to feel close to, at one with, this planet.

      Beyond this, I am not going to tell you anything about my personal life, because it is simply none of your business. If you are so good at believing things, as against knowing facts, then you will only depend upon what you believe about me anyway.

      Do you have any interest in things other than your religious perspective? Do you do your bit to help preserve the health of the environment around your life?

      If so, how about devoting more time to that? Reduce your own polluting influences. It's a wonderfully exciting and rewarding "lifestyle," that will leave you feeling good about yourself and your neighbours.

      At the same time, you will have less and less time to worry about what others believe; less time to point the finger at people of whom you know nothing about their lives. Stop imaging that you do.... you DON'T.

      Finally, reserve that "god" which you have conjured up in your own mind, for judgment of your OWN motives and desires. Leave others to theirs.

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      Kiss andTales 3 years ago

      Why is everyone wrong ,you never have admitted to anyone a good point . Really you are in darkness from your own truth. Because you have closed all reasoning off other then your own. And we all know it is impossible to be right all the time. So you do not even face that fact .

      You would rather attract a person then to admit different. You do not have to prove to me or any human. But God will judge all.

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      Alan 3 years ago from Tasmania

      Such awesome writing comes from deep awareness, thanks Hanavee.

      I could never have written it like that.

      Kiss and Tales, please open one of your windows. I have no desire to exclude you from discourse. There is so much beauty to see, don't hide behind a blackened veil.