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The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality

Updated on March 7, 2016
Hanavee profile image

Brian Gray, obtained his degree in Language from Lee University, and has been a published author and professional writer since 1985.

Leviticus 18:22 shown in the original Paleo-Hebrew.  Read from right to left, "V'et zachar lo tishchav mishchvey ishah toevah he."
Leviticus 18:22 shown in the original Paleo-Hebrew. Read from right to left, "V'et zachar lo tishchav mishchvey ishah toevah he."

Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth

I wanted to start this article right off with that loud statement - “The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality” - because for those who wonder what they are reading here, that statement should say it all. I prayerfully ask people to read the book, “Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality." This book represents forty years of intense scholarly research, and it proves with irrefutable and verifiable fact what the title of the book states. With this book filled with proven research materials, we finally have all of the facts about what the Bible actually does say in each and every passage that has ever been misconstrued to seemingly read that anti-gay bigotry is condoned.

There are several types of people who will come here to read this article. The one I find the most important will be the person who has been struggling with their sexuality for such a long time, struggling because they were taught that the person they are is damaged goods, unworthy of the love of God. And that hurts. Their pain is immeasurable. If I counted only the suicides, the unnecessary tragedies should stun us all. Those who have been tormented because of their sexual orientation have come for hope. For that person, I will say, “Wait no longer. Know that you are loved by God, that He made you the way you were born for a reason known only to Him, and He loves you just the way He made you. You are a child of God, and no one can take that away from you anymore.”

Of course, there is another type of person who is going to come here to read this, and that, unfortunately, will be the one who does so with the bigotry, hatred and anger that years of “taught” prejudices engender. “How dare you say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality!” they will shout. They won't take the time to read a thing I have written, nor will they take the time to first read the book before beginning their predictable diatribes. Instead, they will only read the title of this piece, scroll right down to the comments section, and thereupon will begin the litany of scripture verses, as if I have never read them, the same ones that have been trotted out each and every time, verses and passages that “seem” to condemn gays. For that person, I will say, “You do not speak for God, but instead, you speak for all the bigotry that has been handed down from bigot to bigot. You were not born a bigot, you were made a bigot, and being a bigot is a choice, a lifestyle. Time for the anti-homosexual lie to end, time for the pain you have created to end, and time for you to have a real and genuine talk with God about why you cannot let the hatred go.”

People ask me, "How can you say this?" Because, it is quite simple. An error is an error, and we who profess to be following the teacher of Truth owe the world our due diligence when we teach our beliefs. An error is an error, and if we are shown that something we have held as truth turns out to be error, we are required by our faith in God to seek the genuine truth, even when we find that the genuine truth points out our errors. Then, we have to take it one step further - we have to undo the error and strive to repent of the damage that error has caused. It is easy when a prejudice does not affect you to allow it to simply continue undeterred by anything you might do, but that is unjust. Every pain and sorrow inflicted on gay people has been brought on by not caring enough to right the wrongs of hate. People like to cloak their hatred of homosexuals with such phrases as "love the sinner, hate the sin," but this is falsification of the true agenda of those who use such phrases. Prejudices are taught, and they are not of God. Those who accept an error that brings so much pain to others, all while arrogantly refusing to look at evidence that exposes that error, these people live a lie, not true love and compassion. The Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality, and the lie to the contrary, no matter how enjoyable to bigots, cannot be permitted to continue.

Once you have read the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," you will definitely come to see that the Bible definitely does NOT condemn homosexuality...not anywhere, not at any time. Shocking? Well, yes, if you were raised like I was, a Fundamentalist Christian who was taught that all homosexuals were going to Hell. I heard sermon after fire-and-brimstone sermon about the “sins of Sodom” and the plain statement of Leviticus 18:22 (Man shall not lie with man...). So, how, you ask, can I say that the Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality? Because it absolutely does not. Read on.

In the just-released book, “Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality,” there is so much evidence contained therein, that it would be impossible to put it all here in this article. The book is over three-hundred pages and took forty years of scholarly research to produce. If you read the book, you will come away knowing that what I am writing here in this short article is absolutely true, so, for further study and a deeper confirmation of what I am stating here, read this book. Of course, bigotry is more comfortable than study. Why study to learn anything if your mind is so closed that even God's truth cannot enter? If this book is false, then read and prove such, but if this book is truth, then why would you cling to a hateful prejudice that brings so much harm and division? The truth can stand to be questioned. Study is what destroys lies.

One of the puzzles for me is how people would rather condemn gays than to ask themselves a simple set of questions, “Am I correct? How do I know I am correct? Who taught me this anti-gay belief?” Well, do you ever ask yourself where your prejudices come from? Funny how we think our prejudices are inborn, or placed in our hearts by God, but this just is not the correct answer. Prejudice is born out of ignorance. Since God is the author of Truth, then ignorance is not a product of listening to God, rather, it is a product of not listening to God. Let’s look at a few of the prejudices that have been proven wrong in just the past century.

Women at the beginning of the 1900s were still considered inferior to men, and that inferiority was blamed on passages contained in the Bible. Few people truly knew their history, or they would have known that the passages used to subjugate women were passages that were written in the Middle East at a time in history when male chauvinism was law. In fact, this male chauvinism is still the law of the land in the Middle East. I've seen Christian men and women of the 21st century become extremely agitated when confronted with photos of women in the Middle East today who are required to completely cover themselves from head to foot with the burqa, yet these same Christians seem to forget that women were essentially treated the same way right here in America not too long ago. What changed? Did God change? Did God make women inferior to men at one time in history, and now He makes them equal? The same God yesterday, today and tomorrow made us all children who are equally loved by Him. He put none above the others, even though He made us all different for His personal joy. We have come a long way in America, and I think it is safe to say that few people in this country would say that women are inferior human beings.

The race issue is still causing us problems in this country. Why? Some still see difference as a reason to hate, not a reason to rejoice. Sound too simple? Apparently God likes variety, because that is how He made us. If it pleases God to see so many races, who are we do kick dust up at God? Who are we to deface His gift? If He finds joy in all of us being the way He made us, why can we not find that same joy? The answer is, we can, especially if you claim the promise of Jesus Christ and learn to love others the way He loved us. There is no excuse for prejudice. And when prejudice tries to justify itself by misinterpreting the Bible, the person who does so fights against God.

Prejudice is not inborn, it is taught and learned. Put a bunch of babies in the same room together, and they are going to play with each other with total disregard to how the other baby looks. When does that all change? It changes when adults pass on their “likes” and “dislikes.” Generation after generation passes the prejudice forward until someone somewhere rejects what was taught them and begins to study to find the truth. And that is what I did. I remember hearing my father preach that homosexuals were going to Hell, all while my visiting gay uncle sat in the pew next to me. I wondered to myself, why would my father insult my uncle like this? I was too young to understand back then, but I still remember the hurt my uncle must have felt sitting there being singled out by my father who preached this sermon straight from the pulpit... and coming from the pulpit made it hurt that much more. The pulpit, well, that was God’s holy turf, and anything that came from the pulpit had the weight of a battering ram. If you really wanted to make your point, have your statement carry unquestionable force, then having it stated forcefully from the pulpit in any church gave it sanctity, the seal of God’s approval. Doesn’t get any stronger than that. But I tell you this as a fact, preachers don’t make truth. They either report it, or they distort it. God makes truth, and life all around us reports it. If your eyes and ears are truly open, truth will be no mystery to you.

Sitting there in that church that night, listening to my father make the point that homosexuals were going to hell, I wondered why my uncle didn't just get up and walk out the door. But he didn’t. Like the gentleman he was, he stayed and endured the indignity, but he never came back. For many years after that night, I have thought about what happened back then, and I have asked myself why this had to be. Sadly, my father was preaching ignorance, and the effects were far-reaching. What comes from the pulpit has to be weighed against the reality of God, and as I often say, “If your Theology does not square with God’s reality, then you need to revisit your Theology.”

The facts of what the Bible genuinely says about homosexuality are contained in the book “Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality” by Wayne Gray, and while this book came about too late to help my late uncle learn that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, there are millions of gays in the world who are still being tortured by the general public, and this book will go a long ways in eradicating the ignorance that has been at the root of this inhumanity. The most often quoted passage in the Bible is Leviticus 18:22.

“Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.”

Such a small, short verse, yet the misinterpretation of this one line has divided more families, caused more sorrow, and led to more unnecessary deaths than any other passage in the Bible. What is even more strange is the fact that those who often quote this passage in defense of their bigotry cannot quote any other passage in the entire book of Leviticus! Wonder why this is? Further, since Christians are supposed to believe that Jesus brought an end to living under the old laws of the Old Testament, many will sputter and stammer when you ask them why they cannot quote any other passage from Leviticus and why they still want to observe only this one rule from that book. After all, the book of Leviticus is one ruling after another for the ancient Israelites. It is not one book with one seemingly anti-gay passage in it. Leviticus was a code of ethics and laws written for the Jews who had just returned to Israel from Babylonian captivity. It is not one rule, but hundreds, yet, strangely enough, most Christians ignore all of those other rules, all of them...but one. Without excuse.

Translating the famous Leviticus 18:22 passage is not simple, even with training in the original language, because this is a fractured line, that is, one that has some key words that were omitted. Still, because we have the passages before and after, with proper study, we can put together what the writers of this passage were trying to say to the Israelites so long ago. The Israelites had returned to Jerusalem from seventy years of Babylonian captivity, and those who had returned had been sent by Cyrus of Persia to rebuild the temple to the god of Israel, since Cyrus believed that all the gods of all the nations he possessed should be honored with their own temples. The Israelites in Jerusalem were living in the midst of Canaanites, and the Canaanites worshiped, among other gods, Molech. Leviticus 18:22 is merely one passage among several that admonish the Jews to leave the worship of Molech and separate themselves from any practices that make them like the Canaanites. In the fertility rituals of the temple of Molech, sex was considered one of the sacred elements. Thus, to place the passage in context, notice that the verses before and after 18:22 all deal with various practices in use within the sexual activities in the temple of Molech.

Men had sex on the temple altars with women who were not their own wives; thus, verse 20 begins with the admonition not to have sex with another man’s wife—

“. . . thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor’s wife . . .”

It then, in verse 21, moves on to sacrificing one’s children to Molech—

“. . . thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech . . .”

Now, the famous verse 22—

“. . . thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind . . .”

Then verse 23, “. . . neither shalt thou lie with any beast . . . neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto . . .”

In the temple worship of Molech, as well as many of the other gods, people would have sex to emulate the gods, because they felt that fertile lands were a product of the copulation of the gods. Therefore, imitating this pleasurable act of the gods would catch the attention of the gods, and their admiration of the acts of these mortals would confer that same guarantee of fertile lands and abundant harvests. Any sex act was considered normal, so men with wives, men with other men’s wives, men with men, women with animals, it was all considered sacred and useful for this ritual. But, the Israelites who returned from Babylon had a new religion that they were going to create, and in order to make the temple that they were rebuilding become the power center that they needed it to be, edicts were established that would begin a nation that was unique and separate in all things. Leviticus lays down laws on how they were to dress, how they were to act, how they were to live, how they were to wear their hair and much more. Anything that could possibly make them appear as similar to the Canaanites was forbidden. Thus, the Israelites who had been worshiping in the temple of Molech were now told that they would no longer be permitted to do this. Such dual citizenship was out. If you worshiped in the temple of Molech and then tried to come to the temple of Israel and worship, you would be considered “toevah,” "ritually unclean," (the word that is improperly inserted in the English here is "an abomination"), and you would have to cleanse yourself in the mikvah, or ritual cleansing pool in front of the temple, before you would be permitted to enter.

Note here that the word “abomination” has been used over the centuries to proclaim homosexuality a sin before God, and this is not at all what is being said here. The word “abomination” is erroneously inserted to translate the word “toevah” which only means ritually unclean. One who was ritually unclean was not permitted to enter the temple proper until such uncleanness had been ritually washed away by bathing in the mikvah. So many people incorrectly think that this word translates "abomination" and means that anyone who is called an “abomination” is an outcast of God and doomed for Hell. Such is absolutely NOT the case. The word is "toevah," it only refers to an ancient temple dictate that has absolutely nothing to do with modern day civilization, and it most certainly does not apply to sexual orientation. It did not apply to sexual orientation back then, and it still does not today. If the writers of Leviticus had wanted to say something was very wrong, they would have used the strongly condemning word “zimah.” They did not! Do not overlook this important point! And it is clearly evident from studying this passage further that there would be no need to classify these temple practices as anything more than toevah. Remember this, the ritual sexual practices conducted in the temple of Molech would cause the modern-day conservative Christian to blush and yell "Sin!" But, the Israelites of that time and place only considered them practices that would render the particpating Israelite as unclean and in need of a visit to the ritual bathing pool....NOT Hell.

Further proof that Leviticus 18:22 does not say that man shall not lie with man, in other words, man shall not have sex with man, comes from the proper translation of the words in the original language. Here they are: “Vet zachar, lo tishkav mishkvey ishah; toevah hee.” This reads, literally, “And with a zachar, you will not lie in the beds of women; it is a ritual uncleanness.” So, what is a “zachar?” A zachar was an image of a male penis, and these were made out of every element known, from wooden ones to solid gold ones, and they came in all sizes. You might think of them today as a modern sex toy, but in the days of Leviticus, these were even made into amulets that were carried in pockets or worn around the necks of men. Further, this tradition became a regular item of society right on through the time of Christ and the disciples. From historical research, we find that the zachar was used in temple sexual rituals with the temple prostitutes, often men who dressed up like the goddess so that the male who was offering sex on the temple altar could copulate with one of the gods (thus, the “beds of women”), and Israel was not exempt from observing this practice. Note, for example, this passage in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 16:17 “You took your beautiful things, made of the gold and silver that I had given you, and you made yourself images of men and fornicated with them.”

Here, the words “images of men” is “tsalmey zachar,” which translates properly as “phallic images.” By now, it should be clear what these are, and their use was fully and totally understood by the Israelites, even if such knowledge is lost on modern era people. Even if such knowledge is not commonplace today, we have no excuse for the ignorance that results when we do not go back in history and study the culture of that time so that we can fully understand what the writers of these passages literally meant.

So, the passage in Leviticus 18:22 is not a stand-alone passage, but an item in a list of edicts declared by the new leaders that arose in Israel at that time thousands of years ago. The fact that we can simply read the chapter and see that it begins with a list should suffice, but for those who need further proof, simply read verse 24:

Verse 24 “Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled which I cast out before you.”

Makes it kind of obvious, don’t you think? "These things" - Plural? How much clearer does it have to get? The verse in the same discussion in chapter 18 says “these things,” not “this thing.” Leviticus 18:22 is one item in a list of items that the new leaders in Israel were listing as changes to be made in the national identity of all Jews. For a further and deeper discussion of all the proofs, read the book, “Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality” by Wayne Gray. This book demonstrates with irrefutable and verifiable fact what the truth is regarding Sodom and Gomorrah (they were not destroyed for homosexuality), and also opens the doors to a deeper understanding of the relationship between Jonathan and David, the true life of Daniel, the writings and true meanings of the apostle Paul, and even gives a chapter on how the sexual mores of today were arrived at, showing as well, that the anti-gay bias of today did not exist in the days of Jesus Christ, but began centuries later as a political movement in Rome. There is just too much detail to contain in one simple article, but the damage from mis-translating the Bible has gone on for far too long. It is time we learned the truth, then take that truth to set people free from the bondage of ignorance. We’ll never learn to truly love like Jesus taught us to until we do just this, study and apply the truth. The Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Let’s not be afraid to expose the myths and, in so doing as Jesus would have us do, to issue in an era of peace and love.

This book represents forty years of scholarly research and thoroughly examines every scriptural passage ever misinterpreted to be anti-homosexual. I recommend

The new, fact-filled book from Xlibris by Wayne Gray.
The new, fact-filled book from Xlibris by Wayne Gray.

Bigotry And Prejudice Are Born Out Of Ignorance

Bigotry and prejudice are born out of ignorance. These aspects of life are taught, handed down from one person to the next generation. These prejudices are not inborn, and just as they are taught, they can be repudiated and unlearned. Prejudices are not based in fact, but based, instead, in lies and misinformation designed to hurt and harm others. The cure for ignorance is education. When the anti-gay myth has been taught long enough, people forget its origins, but as the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality" fully details, anti-homosexual prejudice and bigotry did not exist at the time of Christ, nor was it taught in the Early Church. It was not until the 4th Century under the Roman Emperor Constantine that this ignorance began, and that was as a political movement in a war between the Nicenes and the Arians. Ending this painful and sorrowful ignorance is long overdue, and I strongly urge everyone who reads my article to purchase this book, form a study group, and have everyone delve into the details offered therein. Then, take the knowledge out there and spread the word. Stamping out this horrible and destructive myth should be the responsibility of all of us who care about a just society and a more peaceful world. Take the pledge, promise to do something to help end the effects of centuries of false propaganda that has infected the Church and our world. Get this book, study it well, and spread the word. You will help to make this world a better place because you are in it.

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    • Freeway Flyer profile image

      Paul Swendson 4 years ago

      I notice that you are fairly new to Hubpages. Based on my past experience, this hub will definitely get you some attention. I don't envy you for what you might experience in trying to reason with some of the people who may comment here in the future.

      You do a great job of showing the importance of two basic principles for interpreting any ancient scriptures: reading verses in context and accurately translating the words. Since a large percentage of self-professed Christians rarely read the Bible at all, it is not surprising that they do not even come close to abiding by those two principles.

      I've always found it interesting that the Jesus of the gospels never said anything about homosexuality, and yet his self-professed followers seem obsessed with the topic. It would be interesting to get your take (or of the book you reference) on the famous passage in the book of Romans where Paul may have mentioned homosexuality.

      One of my objections to revealed religion is that the written word will inevitably be interpreted in various ways with its intended meaning often twisted or just extremely difficult to determine. I do respect, however, any believer's sincere attempt to make every effort to get the meaning as accurately as possible.

    • skye2day profile image

      skye2day 4 years ago from Rocky Mountains

      I happened by your hub and led by the Spirit of God came to visit. Mind you not to judge but visit. God is the Judge. God has given us the Bible and His word does not change. This new Bible author has clearly twisted scripture to suit his own needs and justify what is clearly an abomination to Jesus Christ. Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

      The Bible doesn't speak of homosexuality very often, but when it does, it condemns it as sin. I am a Christian I do not hate homosexuals. I detest the sin. Why because it is not from God and unless one is forgiven and made righteous through Jesus they will perish. God created man for woman noAdamam anSteveve buAdamam and eve. When born again thSpiritit of God is birthed into us and truth is revealed. The devil does not want Jesus revealed to anyone so uses others to twist the truth and keep any and all from God. God loves all people He wants none to perish, but he detests sexual immortality. It says in the scripture. Corinthiansins 6:9-10 'Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

      You took much time to defend this Bible. Why if you read scripture then you know what it says, already? You say you know in your hub. Well then it is clear words are twisted in this 'new' Bible. Jesus changes our hearts and transforms our thinking. It is so sad that same sex unions trample on Gods word.. We must be born again to be forgiven and made righteous. That is the only way we inheredheret the Kingdom of God.

      There are a couple of hubs written about born again or saved individuals that were homosexuals and changed. Jesus is the heart changer. He did not birth us to lie with the same sex. We populateplulate the earth. Two men or two woman do not populate the earth. I could go on but will close now. I pray you are led to the truth. I really do. Jesus does love you. He calls you to come to HIM. He is the way truth and life. There is no other way.

      In Christ Jesus, Skye

    • profile image

      graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      The bible DOES CONDEMN homosexuality and no amount of twisting the word of God to justify the actions of gays is going to change it.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Dear Skye2day,

      Sadly, what you are repeating is apparently what you have been taught, and what you have accepted without question, because, as a heterosexual, anti-gay bigotry does not affect your comfort zone. After all, the Bible is a private club for heterosexuals, isn't it?

      The same verse you quote is from a book from which I doubt you can possibly quote too much else. Do you ever ask yourself why that is? Could it be that you have accepted the prejudice that was taught to you, and any verse, even out of context, that seems to back up your prejudices, means that you are right? My brother in Christ, what you lack is an understanding of biblical Hebrew and ancient Jewish history so that you could translate that passage properly. The original writers of Leviticus were refugees returning from Babylon, and they were fighting to make sure that Israel was never put under foreign domination again. Therefore, they needed to re-create a national identity, and even though Jerusalem was right in the middle of the Canaanite nation, they were going to dress differently, talk differently, act differently, just so that they could attempt to resurrect what they had lost, that is, their nation. So, everything the Israelites in the area were borrowing from the Canaanites, including their religious temple practices, was to be abandoned, and the new temple in Jerusalem, along with this new religion they were forming, was to become Israel. There were two Jewish groups now living in Jerusalem, those that had never been taken into Babylon, and those who were returning from Babylon. Naturally, those who had remained in Canaan were very much like the Canaanites in all things. Thus, the warning from the new "leaders," those who sought to rule the new Israel, formed from anti-Canaanite sentiment.

      The second verse that you quote from Leviticus is a repeat of exactly what was spoken of earlier, that being the engagement with temple prostitutes in the worship of Molech. Also, the word is not "man" shall not lie with man, but "vet zachar" lo tishkav, in other words, with a zachar you will not engage the temple prostitutes of Molech. At no time does the original Paleo-Hebrew say "man." Further, prostitution is not what is being condemned, but the worship of Molech, since Israelites daily made use of prostitutes. If you doubt this, then I will gladly point it out to you in the ordinary King James, or any other version you use. It's there...in plain English.

      Further, when you try to use a translation that uses the word homosexual in English, I will completely ignore that, since the word homosexual was not invented until late in the nineteenth century by a doctor in Czechoslovakia. Nowhere in the Bible is the word homosexual, nor any word even remotely resembling it, to be found. Such people who put words into the Bible have been warned by God. I personally find such abuse of the scriptures to be an abomination before God.

      I suggest that before you respond to this article, you read the book I recommended. The Lord has exposed you to the truth, now you need to prayerfully allow the Lord to show you the harm your prejudices and bigotries have caused His children.

      You will be in my prayers.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      graceinus,

      Sadly, the Devil is using you to harm God's children. I pray that you allow the Lord to lead you away from the darkness of prejudice and into the light of His true word. The Bible has only been twisted by those who refuse to listen and insist on holding on to their prejudices. The Bible does not condemn gays, and no amount of your wanting it to will make the Lord's word say what it does not.

      I admonish you to read the book I mentioned, then pray that God helps you to leave your hatred behind. You will be in my prayers,

      Brian

      A child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Freeway Flyer,

      Thank you for your kind letter. And I also thank you for your kind and prayerful thoughts. I always welcome the prayers of anyone who comes in peace.

      Regarding the writings of Paul the apostle, the most notorious misuse of Paul's writings comes from his letter to the Jews while he was in Rome. At this time in history, Jews were becoming increasingly upset with the Gentile converts to Christianity, because the Jews felt that this new teaching should be to Jews who were awaiting their messiah, and it should be, as Paul recites, to the Jew first. They wanted the Gentiles to be circumcised, and the Gentiles wanted nothing to do with this custom. Paul had his hands full, because Rome was beginning to see Christianity as non-Jewish, and therefore, a new religion that would not be under the protection of Roman law. Therefore, this "new" religion would no longer be protected as Jewish, and would now be open for persecution and legal prosecution. Paul, himself, would become one of the victims of this change in legal protection of Christians, and would be later beheaded as a Christian, not protected as a Jew, even though he had been raised a Pharisee.

      Paul, then, was addressing the Jews, and he was referring to the Jewish contempt for the Gentiles who were heathen with their heathen temples and temple practices, and one thing that everyone reading this should be aware of is the verb tense. Paul is speaking in the past tense, because he is reminding the arrogant and self-righteous Jews how they, too, in their historical past, engaged in the very same temple practices and everyday vices as the Gentiles. Therefore, they were all in need of the transformative healing of the message of Jesus Christ.

      For a more in-depth discussion of the writings of Paul and how they never condemn gays, read the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality" by Wayne Gray, and you will see much more proofs than I can spend the time putting here.

      As for reasoning with some of the people who will come here filled with their self-righteous hate, they will receive my prayerful consideration, and I will turn them over to the Lord I worship in hopes that He can do what I cannot, and that is to help them see not only the Truth, but the harm that they have participated in which has been directed at God's children who are different from them.

      May God bless you,

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • profile image

      graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      Gee, that funny, because I was just about to tell you the same thing.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      graceinus,

      I am going to prayerfully ask you to talk to the Lord before you post, because I am not detecting His spirit in your posts. This is a serous discussion, and I will ask you to conduct yourself as a prayerful partner in this discussion. Please ask the Lord to guide you in your thoughts and actions. Let us not bring dishonor to His name.

      Your brother in Christ Jesus,

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Any Bible after the 3rd century has been manipulated and twisted.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Love the sinner, hate the sin.

      Since it's our sin that Jesus died for. Nobody can be in the presence of the Holy Father with a sinful nature. Jesus blood spiritually cleansed us. Just believe on his name.

      Peace

    • profile image

      graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      Well feel free to delete my comments

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Hanavee, you use the wrong book in your understanding of homosexuality. It seems you have put a lot of consideration into what this new book about homosexuality and the Bible. I have studied Greek & Hebrew, as well as background information on Biblical society & culture, and have read the Bible through... nothing I have studied compliments your determinations here.

      The situation is that you are defending a lifestyle which leads away from God and is opposed to the Bible. You seem to indicate anyone who disagrees either does not know what they are talking about or is a bigot or both. That is a shallow argument to combat the truth. If you do take scriptures one at a time you can come up with any reason not to take them at face value. After much research and study I have come to understand that the Bible is very understandable in the English interpretations we have today, and is rather close to the Biblical Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. I think understanding the historical cultural situations is important, but the Bible was written so people across all cultures and time periods would be able to understand it and properly apply it to their lives.

      A couple of passages have been mentioned which apply to the homosexual lifestyle, and I believe you may have alluded to Romans, but here are two passages in the New Testament that have not been laid out fully yet:

      1 Timothy 1:8-11

      8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

      Romans 1:24-28

      24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

      26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

      I understand you have some reservations about the literal translation of “homosexual” in English from Greek, but Romans is straightforward with additional delineation of the situation.

      I am not sure of your motivation here, but it seems evident that perhaps you have taken offense towards the condemnation of homosexuality. Perhaps you did not think it proper how your dad treated your uncle, and perhaps you have thought that anyone attacking the position of the homosexual lifestyle must also be attacking the person. The truth is that I want homosexuals to come to know God’s gracious love and to accept His free gift of salvation. I believe the homosexual lifestyle takes someone away from such a possibility, as long as they follow it and let it define who they are.

      I do not hate homosexuals, I love them. It is possible to love someone you disagree with; it has been done throughout the timeline of all mankind. I believe God loves homosexual people, but does not want them trapped in a lifestyle that takes them away from Him. It is evident that your conclusion on this matter is directly opposite of the Biblical realization of this matter. The Bible does condemn homosexuality, and God is obviously opposed to this lifestyle based upon the reality of His Word.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      Please understand that I am not condemning your training, but if, as you say, you have studied Hebrew and Greek, then you should have known that the word homosexual not only did not exist in either the Hebrew language, nor in the Koine of the New Testament, but nothing condemning sexual unions between two males or two females was ever written in any passage in the Bible. When you quote Paul, the famous passage from his speech to the Jews of Rome wherein he tries to stop the split that is growing between Jews and Gentiles, he speaks in the past tense, and he does so with a reason. He was talking to the Jews about their historical past in hopes that he could get them off their arrogant self-righteousness and embrace the Gentile converts to Christianity. Paul failed to get them to recognize how similar the past of the Jews was to the current Gentiles, and the split between Christian Gentiles and Jews grew until Rome ordered the persecution of this "new" religion, which ultimately caused Paul's beheading. Read the book that I have recommended, because there is an entire chapter on the writings of Paul, and every word that Paul has written is examined in truth and clarity. The choice is also yours to cling to your beliefs that have been handed down to you and condemn the truth that is being shown to you. The same happened when Paul preached to the Jews.

      Please note that any time anyone renders a quote with the word homosexual inserted into the Bible, I will consider that person's post unscholarly and will respond to it accordingly. The word homosexual was not invented until the late 1800's, and while Paul knew the word in Greek for any sexual situation that existed, using several of them in his Greek manuscripts, he never spoke of, nor even alluded to, those males or females that he personally knew to be in homosexual relationships. Such relationships were quite common in the cities in which Paul lived, he saw them daily, and not once does he mention them. I would sincerely suggest you study the Greek text of all of Paul's writings so that you can see these words for yourself. They are documented, as well, in this new book.

      You say that you do not hate homosexuals, and I hope they do not hate you, but you are wrong to call it a lifestyle. A lifestyle suggests a choice, such as choosing your religion. We know that sexual orientation is not a choice, and as for being homosexual taking a person away from God, tell that to the millions of gays and lesbians who have come to know the Lord as their personal Savior and are forming churches so that they, too, can come to worship Jesus Christ and enjoy His love.

      Please pray about your prejudices, and may God allow you to see His truth rather than the falsehoods of man that bring sorrow instead of the love of Jesus Christ. God loves His gay children as much as He loves His heterosexual children. I am not going to box with God. If He has demonstrated His love for them, I will follow His example.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Lady Guinevere,

      True to some extent. Thus, to get the best versions, I rely on the original manuscripts and texts dating from earlier dates to do my translation work.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      Unfortunately, all too often, such a phrase as love the sinner, hate the sin, is used to deny the civil rights of fellow human beings. People have used this reasoning down through the ages to eradicate people who did not "get with the program." Even Hitler used this reasoning when he outlined "The Great Solution" and vilified Jews so successfully that people who were once productive citizens of equality were reduced to cattle and were herded into the gas chambers.

      As for standing in the presence of Jesus with a sinful nature, that really does not sound too good when you consider that the Bible tells us that our so-called righteousness is a filthy rags, and that it is not by anything that we do that gains us access to Jesus, but by His grace alone. Jesus never said that there were exceptions, rather, He said that "Whosoever believeth on Him" would inherit the kingdom. Those exceptions were introduced by man, not by the Lord.

      I personally know hundreds of gays and lesbians who have accepted Jesus as their personal Savior, are living for Jesus, and they stand on His promise that no one will separate them from His love. I have seen the witness of the love of Jesus in their lives, when sadly I have seen so-called Christians demonstrate the hatred of Satan as they spew hate-filled epithets at these same gay Christians. The Judge will ask these people when they stand before Him on the Judgment Day why they persecuted His children. I hope people who are teaching this hatred find the true message of Jesus before it is too late.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      graceinus,

      You have not offended me, my brother. I am here merely to discuss prayerfully what has caused too much sorrow for far too long. Misinterpreting the Bible is unnecessary, especially when we have the proper and scholarly tools to know what the Bible actually says. If the Truth contradicts what we hold so dear, then we need to let the genuine Truth set us free. That is what Jesus would expect of us...no less than that. And if our bigotry brings hate instead of love, if our belief is not borne out by genuine research into the Truth, then we must allow God to open our eyes so that we walk in the Truth.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Question where does the word homosexual come from ,tell me where is it written that this is acceptable from the bibles view , I read a scripture that says do not be mislead fornicators ,nor adulteresses,or idolaters ,nor greedy ,nor men who lie down with men ,will have no part of Gods Kingdom , king James the bible makes it very clear, Next when we feel we are in our rights about any matter or in something we want to do or practice, then people seem to take the liberties and write books to call God a lier , Sodom and Gomorrah,is proof , and so shall the future choice of this practice be handle ,If you believe this ,why do you have to write a book on the subject! The mercy that God gives is that we confess this is wrong and turn around , as not to practice sins that are clearly denounce by the true God , if we do not change , why would God want the same people corrupting his new heavens and a new earth, that would be the same as allowing other citizens who are robbers, killers, thieves, liars , and people who practice unnatural acts move in an apartment building ,where people who really do love and do keep the laws and rules. And are able to live in peace and harmony ,Galatians 5:19-21 clearly says it. Do not be mislead, if you allow yourself to think its ok ,this will not save you in the end !

    • profile image

      graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      It is every evident to me that satan has you doing his work in the Hub of your's. Not to menttion the fact the satan has you tied around his little finger. Therefore I don't need or want your so called prayers, because I can just imagine who you're praying too. The only thing I'm sorry about is someone will read this Hub a believe what you have written here. I hope one day YOU will open eyes and see what you have gotten yourself into and delete this garbage you call a Hub.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Hanavee, you are simply incorrect about Paul and his writings. He does address homosexuality multiple times. The original language reflects the meaning of the current translation I used quite well actually. If you believe you have a more accurate translation than the NASB translation I would disagree with you... it is quite accurate. So, your deductions are not accurate because you use an incorrect premise at the outset of your perspective.

      Also, why would you say homosexuality is not a lifestyle? You indicate that there is no choice involved, but of course there is a choice. Where do you get your information about this matter? Science? I think not, as there is no scientific or DNA evidence to support your theory. On the contrary there are identical twins, who share DNA, and on claims homosexuality and the other is heterosexual. There are also people who leave the lifestyle of homosexuality, so did they change physically or phsychologically, or what happened to them to envoke change? Obviously the old saying of 'repeat something enough and people believe it'... that's exactly what has happened to our culture... people say, "I was born this way", or "they were born that way". No, they were not born 'that way', though they may have been tempted in that direction and had circumstances and people push them towards such, but there is and always will be a choice available to them.

      So, both your Biblical approach and philosophical or scientific (the 'born that way') approach is skewed and incorrect.

      Again, you may see my disapproval of this lifestyle as prejudice or bigotry, but does not love point someone in the proper direction? Yes. And isn't it better to let someone know they are living in a lifestyle that leads away from God instead of towards Him? Yes. The approach of covering this as acceptable to God is certainly not the more loving approach.

    • profile image

      believenow 4 years ago from Somewhere in New Mexico

      It's interesting to me that homosexuality is such a major topic for people that call themselves Christians. Could it be that pointing the finger at someone else and what we consider their sin, keeps us from looking at the dead men's bones in us? Paul says in Romans that it is inexcusable for man to judge another...and if he does, he is guilty of the same things. That's a pretty direct statement.

      There are no righteous people on this earth, no not one. So then it seems that we should be careful who we condemn.

      God is my judge and yours. Be thankful for that.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      There is a third kind that come to this truth. I am one who believes that Jesus spoke out about social injustices and showed us what LOVE is, not what it isn't. I am not gay or lesbian but straight who will speak up for the rights of all. I believe in what Jesus taught, not what Paul has said that was directly opposite of what Jesus stated.

      What we judge in others is exactly what we are judging in ourselves. We judge ourselves by the laws that were put inside of us from birth. That is what Jesus states in that Bible that most of his teachings were omitted and it also states that NOT everything is in that Bible. Judging others on 10 percent of something is just not right.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      believeitnow, It is interesting to me that homosexuality is so easily glossed over by some people who call themselves Christians... or sometimes even defended. A lifestyle which takes one away from God needs to be called out. A spade is a spade, and though God judges it is our duty to 1.) call sin what it is 2.) to help shape our culture instead of let it dictate what is 'right & wrong' according to the world's view & 3.) to direct people towards God and a lifestyle which is complimentary to His Word.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Lady Guinevere, (I like the name): Paul's writings are not opposed to what Jesus said, they are complimentary. Who do you think gave Paul the words to write? God did. The words were inspired by Him and all of the Bible is His Word. The Bible is what we need to use to measure what else should be given credence and what is truth... The Bible is truth.

    • profile image

      believenow 4 years ago from Somewhere in New Mexico

      Sojourner1234

      I wasn't trying to defend the gay lifestyle or say whether it is sin or not. Yes, Paul speaks out against it, but it's God's business. That is something that God is in charge of, not man. When man tries to do God's job, or what he thinks God's job is, he ends up driving people further away from the Father.

      God calls mankind to himself. He chooses who he will. It is God's love and acceptance that draws people, not man pointing out the sin that needs to be given up. Focus on sin never did anyone any good.

      If Jesus were on earth today, the "outcasts" of society would flock to Him just like they did 2000 years ago. And Jesus would love and heal them all. Man is so small in his thinking. God is so magnificently grand in His.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Sojourner1234, Paul's writings were to the churches that HE made not of what Jesus taught. If you want to find out about Paul then read about him on another hub: http://deborah-sexton.hubpages.com/hub/Apostle-Pau...

    • Crystal Tatum profile image

      Crystal Tatum 4 years ago from Georgia

      Yikes..well this hub certainly stirred some folks up, didn't it. Regardless of a person's beliefs, I don't know how accusing a person of being under Satan's influence can further the Christian cause. As I heard a very unique pastor recently say, Christians spend too much time focusing on what they're against and not enough time focusing on what they stand for and spreading the message of God's love. I suppose that doesn't mean sugar coat things, but is it really hatred that draws people to God? He's the judge - I say let him do that work and let us do as Jesus commanded and love one another. Condemn one another was not part of his teaching.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Love ya sister. Keep up this sentiment.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Jesus set the example of not publicly condemning sins to make you feel worser but instead his objective was to save people spiritually ,we all have something to work on ,if not we would be right next to God and Jesus in heaven right now ,So what that means is our purpose is to recognize what we need to work on and apply and make adjustments the best way we can. in the bible ,it is very clear at 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 gives a good example ,of human habits unacceptable to our Heavenly Father ,yet he gives us another choice , notice he said "that is what some of you we're ,you have been wash clean " So the subject at hand is to help us really look at how this subject could apply ,and how could we make needed changes mentally as we'll as physically , what many do secretly only God knows ,and for those that are open about it does not change God's words and his choice of how he will judge the subject in the end, but we can learn how we can talk ourself into believing something is right when it is absolutely wrong, the bible says the heart is treacherous who can know it! only Our heavenly Father knows. So for those who have ,and will soon make needed changes ,may God keep blessing you for your efforts and hard work, and if you fill like you tried and failed, keep getting up and never give up, for your gift from God will be greater then you can ever comprehend !

    • dorth profile image

      dorth 4 years ago

      bible says many times sex outside the context of marriage between a woman and a man is sin . period . no struggle with this concept. and especially the same sex. clearly states . hey remember soddom and g. just think about it and stop writing such foolishness .

    • profile image

      Eric Latham 4 years ago

      Hanavee,

      I respect your claims but I disagree with them. Sojourner is not prejudice. He said that he LOVED gays. Just because he disagrees with the sin doesn't mean he is prejudice. I see no one defending lairs or fornicators or other sinners like that because we have all lied or sinned at some point. Yes, while I agree there is prejudice against gays that is unnecessary, it is not as bad as you think. Christians who really know God will not be deceived in going about doing things like that. I'm not sure where you live but we live here down in Georgia and Truett Cathy (the CEO of Chickfila) said he disagreed with gay marriage. He didn't go out of his way or anything to say it. It was simply a question that was asked and he responded with his stance. After that statement, gays literally started riots around a few Chickfilas and his statement was on tons of radio stations and the news. Where is the true prejudice residing? To me it seems much more to be in the gays (not singling them out. This is just the topic you are speaking of. I love gays and I love murderers and thieves and lairs and adulterers and all that stuff, but I hate the sin. As does God). This is just something I am beginning to notice and it keeps building up bigger and bigger. I just want you to know Hanavee, what you are doing is leading people to dislike followers of Christ more and more . Followers don't hold prejudice but love does not desire people to stay the same. If you have a bossy wife who won't listen to you, would you want her to change? Yes. And God is his peoples' bridegroom but he is not coming for the snotty and demanding bride, but is coming for the bride who has kept her garmets clean. Gays do not have any special privelidge. It is a sin. The same argument is made with masquerbation and porn, because its "natural" but it's a sin too. I struggled a lot with that and as I pursued Christ, he purified my whole being. Purification is something which should be pursued by every Christian. Let's stop worrying about what's a sin and what isn't a sin and start chasing the spirit of God. When we really know him (we also learn to know him through the Bible), we will no longer be asking those silly questions but will just know. Anything that threatens to break fellowship with God is a sin. Lust is a sin, and whether its done between a man or a women, its still a sin.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Eric,

      You have unfortunately bought into the belief that homosexuality is a sin, and therefore, you have no problem placing gays in the same category as thieves and murderers. This is wrong on two counts. One, homosexuality is not a sin, and two, no one is a murderer but a murderer, regardless of sexual orientation. For people to equate gays with thieves and murderers is terribly wrong and goes against all the Jesus taught.

      There is not sufficient space here for me to show you how the Bible does NOT condemn gays, but if you really want to know what God has said about this, then read the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality." You will see all the proofs that this book is absolutely correct. I understand that this will be hard for you to do, because it is easier to accept the lie that has been handed down, generation to generation for the past 1600 years, but it is still a lie, and God's children are being harmed by this hatred. It is time for the hatred to stop. Pray, then read this book.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Dorth,

      The Bible never says anything about sex outside of marriage. Please show me the verses.

      Further, Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed for sex, especially not for homosexuality. The Bible never says this. You can search all you want to, but the sins of Sodom were listed in Ezekiel 16:49 & 50:

      “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and an abundance of idleness, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before me: therefore, I took them away.”

      By the way, the word abomination refers here to the Hebrew "toevah," which means that the inhospitality of Sodom was against Jewish law and rendered the participants ritually impure. The sin most railed against when referring to these two cities is inhospitality. In Luke 10:12, Jesus, Himself, refers to Sodom when He tells his disciples to go out and preach the Word in various places, and referring to the inhospitality for which He knew Sodom to be equated, He warned those cities that did not show hospitality to His disciples, “...that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Nowhere in the Bible are Sodom and Gomorrah equated with homosexuality....nowhere!

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Remember the woman caught in adultery? Jesus, said your sin is forgiven, and sin no more. Homosexuality is no different. STOP referring to this book Gray wrote, and reflect on what God said.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      1 Corinthians 7:2

      " But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband."

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Nobody, even your favorite author Gray, can deny this passage.

      Jude 7

      Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

      Here is some more:

      Hebrews 13:4

      4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

      Ephesians 5:3

      But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      You asked, "... where does the word homosexual come from..."

      The word "homosexual" and many others used to classify the many variations of sexual orientation, was invented in 1869 by Hungarian physician Karoly Maria Benkert. It was never used before then. This is a fact that you can very easily verify.

      In all of the pages of the Bible, there is not one single condemnation of a person's sexual orientation, not one. While temple prostitutes were routinely looked down on by Jews and many early Christians, they are the only ones singled out by such Hebrew words as "qadoshim," or Greek words, such as "porneian." There are many words in both languages that can be used to describe anything sexual, including any act a person could engage in, yet they are never used. The only time I see such words as "homosexual" used in modern translations is in unscholarly and bigoted works that pose as true Bibles. If the word "homosexual" is placed anywhere in the version you use, then you would be wise to get rid of it, because anyone who would do such unholy and unthinkable actions as to render untrue what the original words say, they then cannot be trusted anywhere else in the version they have produced. We do not make the Bible say what it does not. If we are faithful to God, then we look at every word and translate it exactly as it means in the original, nothing more. To deliberately mistranslate any portion of the Bible in order to bolster our prejudices is a sin.

      I Corinthians 6:9-10 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

      Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

      Let's start with the "fornicators." The word that Paul uses here is "pornoi," or street prostitutes in Rome. They were born into prostitution, usually children of prostitutes, never knew genuine love, lived in total squalor, and serviced people right in the streets where they ultimately ended up dead before their time. A very sad and tragic waste of life, and Paul tries to set them free by telling them to leave this profession behind and accept Jesus as the way out.

      Next is the idolators, and even without a knowledge of Greek, I think you can see that Paul was referring to those who spent their lives worshiping gods who neither heard nor saw them, gods who could not affect their lives. Paul preached deliverance by seeking the God who did hear and see.

      Adulterers, here is where most non-Greek students go astray again. In Greek and Roman culture during Paul's time, men "owned" their families, their slaves, and their cattle...equally. The male was the owner of the "family," and the family was property. Women had absolutely no rights, and their entire existence was dictated by men. While a woman was used to produce male heirs, she was not permitted to have sex with anyone else but her husband...who owned her. However, the husband was permitted by law to have sex with anyone and anything outside of his "family" that he wanted to. He could also have sex with his slaves. What he could NOT do was to have sex with another man's property, because the law called this adultery, and adultery was punishable by severe penalties, including death. The modern idea of what adultery consists of did not exist in the time of Paul. So, we have to be careful when we apply this admonition to today's society.

      Last is two lines run together, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. These are merely two words in the original Greek: malakoi and arsenokoitai. Funny how so many people want to make these words into other meanings. The malakoi were the male temple prostitutes, and the arsenokoitai were the men who had sex with them during the temple sex rituals. Paul was raised as an extremely strict Pharisee with exemplary education in the philosophical school of the Stoics. For this reason, Paul never engaged in sex of any type, and he never married. Paul had great difficulties dealing with temple prostitution, and the very fact that the sex acts of the temple were done out in the open for everybody in public to watch was more than Paul could tolerate.

      I hope that you will prayerfully study the book: "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality" by Wayne Gray, and let God open your heart to learn to love your neighbor even as you love yourself.

      I'm praying for you,

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Graceinus,

      The work of Satan began before you or I were born, and the way he continues to create sorrow in this world is to have people misinterpret the love of God. They replace the love that Jesus taught about with a private club for heterosexuals only. Rather than study what this book proves, you would instead prefer not to know the truth, but to defend what has been proven wrong, that being the misguided belief that gays are sinners by virtue of the orientation written in their DNA. I pray that God helps you to someday open your eyes and ears to what He has already exposed you to here, and that is, there is a truth that you are refusing to hear. Like the Jews who refused to hear the truth when it was preached to them, all because it went contrary to their prejudices, you , too sit unwilling to hear the word that has been preached to you. May God help you to leave the closed heart and open your ears to hear what he is trying to tell you. God is listening, my brother.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      You claim to be a child of God, yet deny his word; your responses appear scholarly, but are not spirit filled.

      Galatians 1:6 speaks of you.

      I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

      For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      No offence, but it has become apparent to me that you have neither studied Greek nor Hebrew. I have a degree in both languages, and for you to say that the NASB translation is perfect is totally incorrect and shows your lack of legitimate study. Any Bible version that uses the word "homosexual" anywhere shows by that very fact that it is an intentionally flawed translation. I will not waste time discussing your beliefs if all you do is tell me that you know what the Bible means, and then tell me that you are relying on a flawed and non-respected modern translation in English as your proof. That is very unscholarly...very! You would have been dismissed from any of the biblical translation classes at my university if you had dared to tell a professor that you were not translating directly from the original language for any statement you made. If you are going to make a point with such force, then you should back it up with proper exegesis and linguistic integrity. To use the word "homosexual" in the writings of Paul, when Paul, himself never used any word in Greek that even remotely resembled this connotation shows that you are relying on wrong sources. If you want to discuss this with me, then give me the word that Paul uses in the original Greek, and we'll go from there. Please do not waste my time, however, with modern translations made by bigots who had no regard for being truthful to the original texts. There are too many of those, so kindly confine your statements to fact and use the original Greek or the original Hebrew.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      believenow,

      Sex was made as something pure, clean and healthy by God, our Creator, and man has found ways to wrestle with that gift ever since. Animals in the kingdom have no problem with this gift, yet humans have varied in their use of this gift down through the thousands of years of human history.

      The Bible does admonish us to work out our own salvation, and it does tell us not to judge others. It seems that there are so many who go around with their religious measuring rods to see how others are out of favor with God. I'll leave the definitions of what is sin to God.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Here is Jude 7 in Greek Textus Receptus

      7ὡς Σόδομα καὶ Γόμορρα καὶ αἱ περὶ αὐτὰς πόλεις τὸν ὅμοιον τούτοις τρόπον ἐκπορνεύσασαι καὶ ἀπελθοῦσαι ὀπίσω σαρκὸς ἑτέρας πρόκεινται δεῖγμα πυρὸς αἰωνίου δίκην ὑπέχουσαι

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Lady Guinevere,

      You make an interesting point. In the Early Church, not only were the writings of Paul rejected by a large segment of the Church, there were centuries of division on that very subject. People need to realize that Paul first was a Pharisee who persecuted Christians. Although he later converted, he never met Jesus in person, learned his Christian teachings from the apostles, and ended up arguing violently with them later, creating one of the first schisms in the Church. No doubt in my mind that Paul loved God, but much of what Paul teaches is taken directly from the school of the Stoics and the teachings of the Pharisees. It does take a great deal of very thorough study to know where Paul goes contrary to what Jesus taught, but it is there.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      No matter what our prejudices, we cannot re-write the Bible to make it say what we want it to. The Bible does not teach that homosexuality is a sin, and we should not try to make it say what it does not, just because someone told us it does. God is not a liar, man can often be, though. And when we try to make the Bible say what it does not, we sin against God. The Bible does not condemn gays, no matter how many people want it to say so.

      People are not trying to re-write the Bible when they expose the truth, that being that the Bible never condemned gays, and the lie that it did was invented long after Jesus and the apostles had gone on to be with God.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      Actually, Paul often states that he is speaking of himself, and not from any commandment of God. Paul's main teacher was Gamaliel, and his Hebraic statements show this influence. He also studied under some of the most famous Stoics in Tarsus. Many of Paul's statements allude to popular writings of his time, many are teachings brought from the Pharisaic traditions, some are observations from his journeys, and some are teachings that came to him from the apostles, whom he debated violently. We are safer following the sayings of Jesus.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      believenow,

      It is not a gay "lifestyle." And Paul never spoke against anyone who was gay.

      Brian

      A Child of god

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Paul addressed the stoic at mars hill

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Chrystal,

      Many who claim the name of Jesus actually demonstrate less love than atheists. If everyone who came to my hub would at least read the book I recommended before declaring that they know everything without any need to study further, I would be impressed by the level of discourse we would otherwise be having.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Havanee, that is convenient that you brought up the words that Paul used in 1 Corinthians. The first actually means: 'soft (one), fancy, & homosexual', the 2nd means: '(man) who has coitus with a man'. You try to use the thought of male temple prostitutes to indicate that the actual act of sodomy and the lifestyle of being homosexual is not being addressed. Paul addressed it with two words to ensure the message was sure to the readers. Whenever there is double anything in Greek, it is an emphasis. Paul used this to really drive home the message. He also focused 1st on the lifestyle and 2nd on the action, to cover both aspects of the sin.

      It is a sin, the homosexual lifestyle and the sexual actions between man & man and woman & woman. Though what follows Paul's message is also clear... he indicates, "such were you"... and that we were all sinners bought with a price. So, Paul's (& God's) message does not end in condemnation, but in hope for salvation to everyone, despite what they have done.

      Your indication that the word 'homosexual' was not 'created' until the 1800's makes no difference. It's like saying that people didn't call the sun the sun, but rather a ball of burning fire that gives us light & heat... they are referring to the same thing, just different terms. The translators of the Bible knew what they were doing when they translated 'homosexual', they are scholars and better language masters than you or I.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Also, studying the Bible will bring more truth than studying the book you recommend. Just because someone does not read the book that brought you to your conclusions does not mean they are interested in the truth... perhaps people simply know a better place to find it.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      If there is anything that we need to do, it is to study when someone shows that there is a truth that is being denied. The truth that is being denied is clearly detailed with fact in the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality." Because that title smacks you right in the face with the truth, you refuse to consider that it might just be what it literally it is, the truth. It would just shake up your smug little world. Doesn't matter. All the hate that has been directed at gays by so-called Christians will be discussed in Heaven when we all get there.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Man you are pushing this book way too much, if Gray tells you it's ok to lie, cheat and steal; you'd be telling us we are all nuts? The bible tells us to use discernment, I just don't see that in you.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      The book does not tell us to lie or cheat or steal. It is a scholarly written book that shows proof, not hearsay or rumor, to make the conclusive statements it makes. I have a degree in Hebrew and Greek, have translated the Dead Sea Scrolls for myself as part of my education, and I have read the Bible through hundreds of times, in English as well as the original languages, and I find no mistakes in this book. Why are you afraid to read it?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      I've never heard of it till today. Your credentials really show me some things. Lets both look at Jude 7 in whatever language you'd like. What do you think?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      You are not studying the Bible if all you do is read mistranslations. You made it seem as if you were a scholar, then you make a statement like that? There is so much that you are missing, because you are relying on the non-scholarly translations of others. You remind me of the time when President Carter went to Poland, and his translator told the crowd that he "lusted" after the Polish people in his heart. When the laughter erupted, President Carter was told what his translator had told the people, which was a mistranslation of what the President had actually said. President Carter actually had said, "I have the feelings of the Polish people at heart." It does not matter what the translation says, if you are not able to compare what the original says, you are at the mercy of the translation. Study the original, Sojourner. You are making great mistakes by not doing so.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      Sadly, you do not know Greek and Roman history, the culture of the temple practices of Aphrodite at the Acrocorinth, and the commonly used terms "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai." The malakoi were the male temple prostitutes who painted themselves like women to resemble the goddess of the temple, and the arsenokoitai were their sexual patrons. Please do not attempt to teach me anything new about any of these terms until you can show me that you are using more than just some English concordance and its extremely limited and usually blatantly distorted information. I prefer facts, not distortion.

      Regarding the translators who inserted erroneously the word homosexual for the words that do not refer to homosexuals, the fact that they made this error shows that they were unscholarly and prejudiced. There are many translated version that do not make this error. You need to use those. Not only was the word homosexual not invented until 1869, but the fact there were variations in sexual orientation was not even part of the vocabulary of the early civilizations. Sex was not categorized like we do today, but rather, it was fluid with all sorts of sexual activity being engaged in freely. You need to study your history.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      Your point? Paul addressed the Stoic...?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      If you're such a scholar you know how Paul addressed the stoics at Mars Hill. Or, do you need a refresher?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12eswow,

      I can read this, I can translate this, and I can write it from memory. I can also re-write it to read in perfect Hebrew. Now, can you? Your point?

      Please tell me that you are making some great point here! I would hate to think that my suspicions are confirmed.

      Brian

      A Child of God

      P.S. Did you catch that interesting note there? sarkos heteros? It doesn't say sarkos homos. Don't you find that funny? Please, at least tell me that you are fluent in Greek and get the joke.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Brian,

      Your hitting us with big lumbering scud missiles (your book), and we are firing back laser precise hole shots (scripture)

      What I don't see is you using scripture to uphold your point. You've largely ignored what I gave you.

      What gives?

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Yes other flesh

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      I have not deserted the One Who saved me by His grace. rather, you who teach hate for love have distorted His message, and, having ears to hear, you have refused to hear.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      There is no hate here? Your pushing a book that justifies unnatural sinful behavior. We are refuting it. No harm.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Brian, are you gay? Just asking.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      well first I do not consider this a wholesome or incouraging conversation, Because maybe you might be fighting the comments made here on hubpages , but who are you really fighting the word of God! If that is what you want to believe than that is between you and God almighty because you have to admit that God made man to procreate so man and women were made for each other that is God law in the flesh , Jesus never said it was right when he was here on earth , And the ones that go to heaven are invited by invitation to rule with Jesus as a heavenly Government (JOB) not for injoyment of the flesh ,but God is the one who invites, so we have no control of that heavenly domain even satan has been thrown out he and a third of the angles who are down here with us trying to convince us that bad is good and good is bad! Really if he is down here what chance do you have going up there believing in a disgusting habit. So God has rules for heaven ,if we can not obey the ones here that's written for our instruction in his word then we certainly will not pass the test ,to be invited and have a part in his new heaven and earth!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Thanks you for explaining the word homosexual ,because I knew that was a word not used in the bible, but why is it that you leave out scriptural parts of the bible, yes you read and wrote 1Corinthians 6:9-10 yet you started out quoting marks" and end with none, because you left out the important part of verse , this worded in our I English today says "verse 9 says " what do you not know that unrighteousness persons will not inherit God's Kingdom, do not be mislead neither fornicators ,nor adulterers ,nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men ,'''' to verse 10 says shall not inherit God's Kingdom" 1Timothy 1: 10 says "men who lie with males" . I will say this you If I did not know anything about you ,no other then you are a nice person ,you care about people , you have hobbies that are great, and you love your family and friends that's all I need to know and that you love God, I would love you like my family, but this thing dealing with sexual choices is not my fight with you because I did not make Bible law. we all have to answer for our choices in life surly satan was thrown from the heavens for his choice and made recruiters ,Adam and Eve, there life cut short because they felt they can be independent of God's law and listen to satan , again is sexual pleasure worth your relationship with God almighty. Deep down you know it's wrong but have talked yourself into believing God will accept your choice because he loves you ,it's true God does love you but how much do You love him ? to give up something he detests this is the real tests ,it is the battle of the flesh ,not what we did or gave ,or sacrifice for each other that's to easy, it's what you do not want to give up ,and now you want to believe it is right because you like what you do , The bottom line is I love you , but I do not love what God condemns !

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Hanavee, actually I used the Greek Bible and a Greek Dictionary, as well as study Bibles/NASB Bible and other sources. It seems that you will use any cultural issues of Paul's time to try to twist his words. They are straightforward and are directly regarding the homosexual lifestyle and the action of sodomy; we do not see eye to eye on this, but I am using sources and resources which are known and have stood the test of time. Speaking of which, do you think that our current translation of the Bible, like the NASB, is incorrect? So, God Himself has been unable to keep His Word untainted? No. The translation is infallable, and the original Word is inerrant as it is God's Word. The context of the Bible would be rewritten by you it seems to take out any type of sin that goes against your preference. The Levitical law, Sodom & Gomorrah, Paul's writings, common sense, Natural Law, Adam & Eve and the marriage covenant between man & wife, the direction of those in leadership to be 'husbands of one wife', and so on reveal just a few points regarding the obvious fact that God intended for one man and one woman to be in such a relationship, anything else is simply a twisting of His Word to meet your preconceived ideas.

      I do think it is possible that you were upset with your father for stating that your uncle was living an incorrect lifestyle. Is this the reason you feel so strongly regarding this topic? It seems so. It seems to me that perhaps you missed the reality of the situation. Your father may have been caring and loving towards your uncle by trying to bring him to the truth... the truth that the homosexual lifestyle leads away from God. So, in your mind you were the loving one (or are the loving one) because you would rather an acceptance happen... the problem is that the acceptance is on your part, not on God's part. Your acceptance of your uncle, or anyone else, despite their lifestyle, does not mean an automatic ticket to heaven... you may not realize it, but your attempts to use scholarly approaches and learned responses may actually do the opposite of what you intended, which is to help people (I presume). Now, I don't actually know how your father taught the Word, whether in love or not, and I don't know if he was being condeming in his actions towards your uncle. But I do know that the approach you are taking, trying to 'stand in the gap' for the homosexual community, as it were, is the wrong type of 'standing in the gap'. Do so in prayer and speaking the truth in love, not defending the lifestyle because you have accepted the twisting of scripture because of something you've read and a bias you may hold.

      Anyway, may God reveal truth to you, and to those reading. May His Word be revealed as true and untainted. May people get in the Word to know what it really means, and to know that we can truly trust that God has kept it solid throughout the ages.

    • profile image

      graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      Sojourner1234-I do believe you are not going to succeed in getting Hanavee to change his mind on this issue. Your're preaching to a fence post. If he were to admitt he's wroung then it would require him to delete this Hub. And I have a sad feeling that's not going to happen.

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      Hanavee I admire you for taking a stand in the face of blind prejudice. It is blind because they will not study for themselves. Know for certain that those who oppose you will never read the book you promote because they do not have the backbone to read something that might challenge their views. If they had any personal integrity, they would read it objectively and if they still disagreed, then one might have some respect for them. They are like those who refuse to read Richard Dawkins through fear that they might lose their faith.

      I find it rather interesting that Jesus makes no mention of homosexuality, yet he talks continuously about money, the kingdom of heaven, adultery, etc. Did he not consider the subject important? Yet this fact is lost on some people and they prefer to defer to Paul who only ever wrote his opinion. As an ex-Pharisee, I'm sure he would have considered it blasphemy for his personal letters to churches to be elevated to the status of scripture. However, I have read numerous bible studies that demonstrate Paul's primary concern was with Christians engaging ith cult male and female prostitutes as opposed to homosexual behaviours per se.

      I'm glad you pointed out the sin of Sodom in Ezekiel, because this myth about Sodomites being rabid homosexuals as being the reason for their downfall is getting a bit old and tired.

      There is a Jewish Hubber here who compares Leviticus with Deuteronomy and shows that homosexuality per se is not condemned. Now as a he is a Jew reading fom the Hebrew, brought up in Jewish culture, I m much more inclined to accept what he says than an ignorant Christian who thinks reading from a King James constitutes biblical study.

      Finally of those who say homosexuality is a sin, do they also condemn those heterosexuals who enjoy oral and anal sex? If not, then why condemn the homosexual? If they do, on what basis as the bible is silent on the details of the sexual acts? The term 'sexual immorality' is open to personal interpretation.

    • skye2day profile image

      skye2day 4 years ago from Rocky Mountains

      Christians are called to love homosexuals. Not romantic love mind you rather true love. Just as we are to love anyone else for that matter. Loving homosexuals does not mean accepting homosexual practices. True love involves being truthful, even if it hurts. Truth can be given in a gentle and respectful manner. True Christians do not compromise Gods Holy Word. This hub looks at the non-Christian homosexual, and the 'Christian' homosexual.

      If someone is not a Christian, and is involved in homosexual activity, chances are that no amount of preaching is going to change their mind. Their position is fostered by the sinful nature which dwells within, and from which, without Christ, they have no escape. To them, homosexuality is just a lifestyle. Whether they believe it is the way they were born, or a choice. Society has accepted this position and just serves to nurture their belief that there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. The primary goal should be to reach these people with the gospel of Christ. Until and unless they receive the Lord, they will have no reason to seek to change. Proclaiming the gospel is the most loving thing we can do for them. Many despise Christians saying we are slightnessos lot. They can not possibly understand our motive without the Spirit oGoodwillsng in them. Of course we know this is the devils demise. He hates that Christ loves humanity and his only intention is to steal kill destroy. John 10:10

      With the homosexual who claims to be a Christian, they should be shown God's point of view. It is a sin that destroys their relationship with God, and it will destroy their lives. If a Christian claims to be a homosexual and will not respond to the pleas or the Bible's admonitions then what is left but to pray for them, dust off our boots and move on in LOVE. If they are chosen Almighty God will move on their hearts.

      God says, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable" (Leviticus 18:22) and "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" (Leviticus 20:13). God views homosexuality as "detestable" or, as in the King James version of the Bible, "an abomination. Under the Mosaic law men were put to death for this way of life, today we do not put men to death. Jesus came to reedeem us from the law and bondage of the law. He so loved the world. John 3:16 Anyone who tries to assert that homosexuality is not opposed to God's or says it is ok with God goes through some 'severe scriptural contortions' to prove their point and they never will. Almighty God is no respector of people and He rules. Gods word is the way, truth and life no one goes to the Father except though Jesus Christ. John 14:6

      I agree with graceinus sharing truth wih hanave is like talking to a fence post. May God move on his heart before it is too late. In Christ Jesus, Skye.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      skye2day, you speak of this: "Not romantic love mind you rather true love."

      You do not read what Hanavee has written, then think about it, absorb it, then consider it against your own understandings.

      All you are doing is hanging on to your prejudices.

      Hanavee has been so, so patient and respectful to everyone who has posted here in response to his Hub. (Thank you Hanavee, this has been most enlightening.)

      Yet you, "skye2day," "graceinus," "sojourner," "kiss n tales," and k12rswow (sounds like someone out of Hitler's Poland death camps), have battled him with disrespect and ridicule.

      That "k12rswow" obviously has a congregation following him, and feels like a "saved" person. Saved from what we can only guess at, but if he is so anti-sex you can bet your boots he is into something naughty. Seems like he has a guilty conscience in there somewhere.

      "You were not born a bigot, you were made a bigot, and being a bigot is a choice, a lifestyle."

      You so-called christian people are the reason I am a happily convinced atheist.

    • skye2day profile image

      skye2day 4 years ago from Rocky Mountains

      johhnycomelately I beg to differ with you johhny. In all due respect I have given the Scripture verses to h and he has still made light of them. He has twisted the meaning of the context. We Christians are vessels for Jesus Christ that is our calling. We are only made righteous through the blood of Jesus. We are all born sinners. The difference is Jesus paid the price for all of our sin. We choose who we will follow. When born into the family of God our hearts are made new. We have the Spirit of GOD manifest in us. Have you ever considered just maybe we Christians are right and are reaching out to a world that is lost. I think that many choose to stay in the world with sin and trample GOD so they do not have to change. The wonderful news is this when we are child of God we desire to sin no longer or do what we used to do. It is a journey we take, we walk Christ. We were all created in the image of GOD. We are born sinners. We are not born good. No one is perfect none and without being made righteous by Jesus man will be judged for his sins because they denied Jesus. One day we will stand before God. Yes Christian is forgiven. We make errors and mistakes we make some terrible choices even when saved. BUT GOD does not drop us HIS grace and mercies are new everyday. We keep pressing on. Helping others to find HIM is a desire on our hearts. Eternity is forever and life does not stop here. We move on. Our Spirits move on and good works do not save us. Jesus saves us that is why He came to the world. He loved us so much he laid down HIS life for us. If not we would all be in hell for our sin. Why one denies a SAVIOR is so foolish. I mean look around GOD is everywhere. He owns it all. He could come and wipe us out. We deserve it. The world is evil and depends on self. It is he devil who works to deceive all people. He hates GOD and hates love and light. He wants to take you and me down. Well It is not happening here. I am forgiven and have the Lord. I am saved. The world is not going to get better friend. I am grateful more than life itself that I am in GODS corner. He is peace, grace, love. So if we Christians share the truth of scripture and what it says and you despise what we say i would tend to say that you are into doing it your way. God will let you. We will be judged one day. Sinners and Saints. I will be on the saint side, forgiven. WHy would I not want to share the good news. and truth. God wants all people to prosper adn be in good health. Our sin takes us down. If you deny Jesus he denies you. He twists no arms to dcome to him. Do you want that. We christians are vellsels for Jesus serving to help in the lost world.

      God Bless you. I do not need to read the book. I know the truth. The WORD of God has never been changed. Many have tried but it is the same, yesterday today and forever. Why would out of the blue scripture change about homoxexuality?It did not. God detests sin all of it. The difference with a child of God is we are forgiven made new and transformed into HIS likeness. It is the only way to true peace and happiness. What if we are right. Now do I sound all better than that? No I am not. It is only because Jesus lives in me I have the Spirit of God in me. Only when one is born again or saved with the Spirit of God manifest in you. It is not that i am better or self righteous but that Jesus lives. He did it for me for you. Consider Jesus. One day HE will return. One day we all die. Our spirit will go somewhere for eternity. Did it ever occur to you we want to share the good news. We Christians did not come into the kingdom of GOD on a pink cloud. Most of us were hurting trying to work things our our way. Knocking down what we could to make it work. It did not work. OUR ways are vain. Jesus is the only way truth and life. Amen.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      skye2day, for all of your writing, and your sermonizing, one thing is very clear: You have not grasped the true message of that man you call Jesus.

      He confronted the people of his day with some real home truths. They did not want to hear those truths about themselves. So they killed him. They were hoping for, waiting for, a messiah...... a solution to all their problems from outside of themselves. You are doing the same thing today!

      You are looking to a messiah, who will take away all your "sins," and make you safe for ever more!

      YOU, skye2day. Inside of yourself. That is where you will find YOUR answers. I look inside of my self, and find the answers I need, right in there.

      My answers for myself are none of your business. Your answers for your self are your business. That is where you and I must encounter and confront our own business. Each of us. Then we are more equipped to meet this world as it really is. Honestly.

      That was the message of that man, Jesus. He was not god, and he rounded on people when they called him god.

      So do not give a cent for any of your biblical so-called knowledge. I respect the knowledge of Hanavee, because he has done some real study and learning, and retained his humility, honesty and love.

      When I see/hear such honesty and love coming from the likes of k12rswow then I might begin to believe that he is what he claims to be: a man of god.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      To All,

      I wish I had the time to sit all day and just dialogue with all of you like the citizens of Mars Hill. The Apostle Paul wrote: " For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing." However, I spend my day writing, lecturing and touring, so I can only come here in the spare time moments to see what my fellow Athenians have been spouting up on the Hill. I will pose this to all of you who are "homophobic," a question: For several hundred years, Whites in America used the Bible to prove that Blacks were inferior and unworthy of not only equality as human beings, but were not even eligible for Heaven, since they could not possibly possess souls. When did the Bible change?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      So far, you have not made a point. Paul addressed the Epicureans as well as the Stoics in Athens. But, what is your point?

      Brian

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      Lumbering scud missiles? I'm chuckling. Really? I use scripture constantly, and I verify my translations by going back to the original to see not only what was written in the language of the writers, but what was happening historically to cause them to write what they wrote. People do not write in a vacuum. There is always cause and effect. Jesus died on the cross, people wrote about it. Jesus addressed the multitude, someone wrote down what He said. The Romans nabbed Jesus, His disciples fled...all cause and effect. Find the reason for the writing, then begin translating there.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      Jude 1:6-6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

      Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

      To understand what Jude is alluding to, we need to go back to Genesis 6:1-6:

      “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

      That the sons of GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all they chose.

      And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

      There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

      And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

      This reference in Genesis concerns the practice of angels (sons of God) having sex with the daughters of human beings (daughters of men) and producing offspring who were giants. Thus, Jude alludes to this in his statement, “And the angels which kept not the first estate, but left their own habitation . . .” Since Jude uses ancient Jewish history for his analogies, for example, the Exodus from Egypt, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the contention for the body of Moses by the archangel Michael, and references to the prophet Enoch and patriarch Cain, we know that Jude is basing his reference to “strange flesh” in the same period.

      When Jude uses the word translated fornication, he actually says “given over to prostitution” in the Greek, ἐκπορνεύσασαι “ekporneusasai,” from the root πόρνος “pornos,” “prostitution.” The common condemnation for Paul and Jude is temple prostitution, thus, when he uses the words “strange flesh,” σαρκὸς ἑτέρας “sarkos heteras,” one thing we should immediately notice is that he does not use the words “sarkos homos.” I say that flippantly, but if someone wants to play loose with linguistics, which so many bigots do, how about that one? Try explaining that one away. This set of words, “strange flesh,” has been used by so many bigots to claim that this is a phrase for homosexuality, when it is nothing of the sort.

      Jude’s point is to warn the Christians that some men have begun to teach them that it is okay to go back to the pagan practices which they forsook, and they will still be saved by the grace of Christ. Jude then shows examples of humans and angels, illustrating how it is possible to fall from grace. Sodom and Gomorrah was always used by Jews to illustrate a city and a population of people who were the antithesis of love, and were therefore destroyed by God for their wickedness. Never is the reason they are destroyed stated as men having homosexual relations. “Strange flesh” is actually linked with the referencing of cult prostitution and is a form of what we call “hendiadys,” two words, or phrases, joined with a conjunction to form greater emphasis of the one idea. An example of this would be the words in Genesis “. . . the earth was without form and void.” “Without form” is the same as “void,” but by using the two together, it adds greater emphasis to the condition. Notice the phrase is “. . . giving themselves over to prostitution and going after strange flesh . . .” I cannot make this any simpler. “Strange flesh” is merely the second half of a hendiadys, and its definition is made clear by the first phrase, “giving themselves over to prostitution.” Notice they are both actions, and they are both synonyms.

      I hope this helps,

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k112rswow,

      I am not pushing a book that justifies sin. I am heralding a book that should open your eyes to the sin of hate and unjustifiable bigotry that has been handed down for centuries without question. This book does the same for educating people who are doing great harm to God's gay children as those faithful followers of Jesus did when they taught White people that they were wrong to condemn Blacks and base their condemnation on the Bible.

      You who have ears, listen. God is trying to tell you something.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      You asked if I am gay. A funny question, as if only one sexual orientation can read the Bible and understand it. I am a prophet of God who was called to celibacy. My life is dedicated to the service of my God and no one else. I have been single all of my life. Nonetheless, my dedication to God does not blind me to the fact that people are misusing the Bible to condemn some of His children, and the pain and sorrow that these people have suffered rises up before God, for He knows who dealt his children this sorrow. Just as there are those in the hands of God today for what they did to the Jews in Nazi Germany, no one escape the sight of God, no one escapes His judgment. When one single gay person commits suicide because of the constant hate generated by those who call themselves Christians, God is not blind. Jesus taught love, but many have turned His message into one of militancy, of destruction and of hate. God knows who is truly following the teachings of Jesus, and He is not mocked by the self-justifying actions of bigots.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Hanavee, trying to compare this issue to that of race, like what Black Americans went through, is more than a stretch. Just because someone tried to use the Bible out of place against an actual race of people does not give place to comparing that misuse to the fact that the Bible does in fact combat the lifestyle of homosexuality. It was actually Christians who helped to stop slavery in the country and who used the Bible to indicate that prejudice against a race is wrong. Homosexuals are not a race, and trying to indicate they have no control over their actions and lifestyle takes the ability away from them to get freed from the lifestyle and come to Jesus.

      Also, it is silly and childish to call people 'homophobic' just because they disagree with the homosexual lifestyle. I want to help those in the lifestyle and don't want any of them to be lost.

      jonnycomelately, I have not acted out of disrespect. It is fine to post opposing viewpoints on a hub. I oppose Hanavee's viewpoint and do not believe his perspective lines up properly with the Bible.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Also, Hanavee, just because you call yourself a prophet of God does not make you so. It seems evident that is simply not true because you misuse the Word of God to try to accomplish an opposing agenda.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      It is actually YOU who are fighting the true word of God. YOU want the Bible to support your prejudice, because YOU think certain sexual orientations are, as YOU said, "disgusting," and because I tell you that the Bible does not, you want to condemn me and act as if you own God all to yourself. He loves you in spite of your ignorance of His Truth, but He wants you to leave the darkness of hate and prejudice behind. God did not make man to simply procreate. If that is your idea of God's reason for making man, then what does He expect of all those men who are impotent. You need to study the life of God's eunuchs before you make a statement like that one.

      In the words of Jesus Christ,

      “For there are eunuchs who were born so from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. To him who can comprehend, that is enough.”

      Matthew 19:12

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and tales,

      You keep trying to make it sound as if someone other than God created sex. Sister, sex is something that God made, it is clean, it is healthy, and NO two people do it the same way. You were born because two people enjoyed the pleasure that sex provided. There was nothing wrong with that. If God had not meant for sex to be pleasurable, he would have made it so that we simply grow children in a garden...maybe a cabbage patch?

      Again, I recommend that you read the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," because every passage that you are quoting is fully explained in linguistic, historical and cultural fullness. The Bible commands us to study the Word of God, rightly dividing it. If you are only reading someone else's English translation, you have only skimmed the surface, and you are reading with their sunglasses on. Read the book. Stop defending the bigotry that you were taught. There is no excuse.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Brian,

      This is the third time I ask you this. Explain to me Jude 7???

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Sojourner1234, if "Also, it is silly and childish to call people 'homophobic' just because they disagree with the homosexual lifestyle," can you please tell me what "homophobic" means?

      " I want to help those in the lifestyle and don't want any of them to be lost."

      By saying this you put yourself on a pedestal, above me. You make the presumption that I need to be rescued by you. I DO NOT! Butt out of trying to control and influence the lives of others. You are not qualified or justified into doing so. And don't go telling me that you have authority because of what you think the bible "says." That is nonsense.

      Attend to your own stuff, diligently. That is where you have bona fide control.... that is where your authority stops.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Silence........

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest.....

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      You wrote: "...actually I used the Greek Bible and a Greek Dictionary, as well as study Bibles/NASB Bible and other sources."

      Sister, I hate to tell you, but this is not enough. There was a time in my early Christian life when I thought the same, and I used the same tools, erroneously thinking that they were sufficient. I was very wrong. You see, many of these "study guides" are published by denominations that already have a fixed set of ideals, and they will never let the Bible disagree with those ideals. So, all of their literature has to back their view. If you doubt this, step away for a second from your Fundamentalist background and read some of the Catholic church's literature, especially where they condemn YOUR religious denomination as a CULT! Oooh! How dare they do that? Voila! Your first taste of "slanted" Theology. You absolutely MUST get away from slanted Theology, because the Truth of God is not slanted, it is the Truth. The genuine Truth of God can stand to be questioned, because, if it were not Truth, it would fall. Stop reading only the literature that props up your bigotry. Read the Truth.

      You wrote: " It seems that you will use any cultural issues of Paul's time to try to twist his words."

      I know how you feel, but I am not doing that at all. I studied Paul's incredible life more than most people ever will. What an exemplary life, but still, what a life filled with some major contradictions. Do you ever wonder what Paul felt like when he grew old, and the "Kingdom of Heaven" that he had so faithfully waited to replace Roman rule did not happen in his lifetime? As Paul was being led to his death by beheading under a Roman ruler, do you wonder what Paul thought about all that preaching that Jesus was going to come back and set up a Jewish kingdom on Earth, that the apostles were going to rule as princes, the new Jerusalem that he never got to see with Jesus sitting on the throne? Only God knows the truth of this theory that got started sometime after the death of Jesus, but Paul preached that the end of time was going to happen in his lifetime. What do you do with that? Study Paul's life from more than just some Fundamentalist preacher's sermons. If you cannot name any of Paul's teachers, especially his Stoic teachers, you have not begun to study Paul. Twisting his words? Not likely. The only twisting going on are those who take Paul's words completely out of context and try to condemn those they hate. Whites used Paul's words to justify lynching Blacks. "Christians" sang hymns at the lynchings of Blacks...all based on misinterpretation of the Bible, and all of them going home feeling "holier than thou art."

      You wrote: " I am using sources and resources which are known and have stood the test of time."

      Actually, no, the resources you are relying on have been on the "do not use" list for many professors, because they are not scholarly. I used to think that this was because my professors were just not close enough to God. The more I learned, the more I saw what they meant. If a dictionary was composed of only what the neighborhood taught was their understanding of words, then when members of that neighborhood got out into the real world, they would find out that their "knowledge" did not work. It is best to use the best.

      You asked: " ...do you think that our current translation of the Bible, like the NASB, is incorrect?"

      Not entirely. In most places, it is quite good, but, I often ask people how much poison is in rat poison. The answers are always very high percentages, like 90%. It is actually less than one/tenth of one percent. The rest is 99.9% edible corn feed, yet that small amount of poison is what kills the rat. I cannot accept a translation that has a higher percentage of mistakes than rat poison.

      You wrote: "So, God Himself has been unable to keep His Word untainted?"

      God gave man free will. God did not sit down with a pen and paper and write the Bible. It is a collection of historical documents that were written by men. Men are fallible, God is not. If you want me to begin pointing out errors in the Bible, I will be happy to show them to you. Does this wreck my faith in God? Absolutely NOT.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      graceinus,

      My faith is founded on the Rock of Jesus. Maybe that is why I am like preaching to a fence post. If my beliefs were simply prejudices taught to me by well-meaning but ignorant people, there would be hope that someone would show me the truth, and I would study the truth. Ah, but that is what I did already, learned the truth, got set free, and you want me to ignore it?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Disappearinghead,

      Thanks for being here. I guess the reason I am able to stand here and preach to this congregation is because that is what the Lord has led me to do. I will preach the Truth to those who teach hate, and if they refuse to hear the message of love and being set free from ignorance that God has sent them, I am not God. Only He knows what He has in store for them. I remind myself that even Jesus was misunderstood and persecuted by those who thought that they were righteous and Jesus was teaching against their misperceptions of religious rights and wrongs.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      skye2day,

      Your entire argument is based on the fallacy that gays choose their sexual orientation. That is like you saying that you were born gay, but somewhere in your life, you chose to be heterosexual. Your entire argument is false.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      skye2day,

      You prattle on and on about how you are saved by the grace of God, thus justifying your bigotries as being infallible, yet you remind me of the admonition of Jesus when He said that people like you are blind to your own transgressions, and willfully so. You are as white-washed sepulchers full of dead men's bones. No wonder the Church is dying off. People see your religion for what it is - a private club for hypocrites.

      In the book of Revelation, at one point we see Jesus standing in the center of the candlesticks, signifying that He is in the center, at the heart of, the Early Church; but later, we see Him saying, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock." By this time, we see that Jesus has been pushed out of the Church, and the ignorance and bigotry of man has been substituted for the love of Jesus and His message of "all who come to Him."

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Really !for some one that uses the word God ,has shown for your defense what really matters to you ,you are not defending the bible you are defending sexual pleasures , surely you will find no debate about a choice in God's temple on the subject , because that was not what Jesus worked hard to defend, his work was to please his father and do his will ,satan never tested Jesus on the subject of sex ,in the wilderness, he tested him on giving him worshship ,at a time when he was hungry, he tested him on putting God to the test , and he tested him by offering rulership through his hands, of these goverments ,he declined, Because his father would make him king through his own hand, that is why these governments do not work and they have gathered nuclear arms to wipe all life off the earth, Your God may be your pleasure that you faithfully defend, because there is no room for your defending the truth of God's word. THE END

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Kiss and Tales, are you ready to listen to Hanavee with an open mind?

      What are you afraid of? That so much of what you have believed up to this point will be proven wrong? Or are you afraid of the admonitions from the pastor in your church for even daring to look further than what he tells you?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      First my happiness and my future is not based on trying to make a wrong that God himself has scripturally condemn right ( and you know the scriptures) ! I am very much happy with God's word the way it is ,because I accept, I believe it ,and live it to my best ! ,You are really the ones lacking faith because you need an audience to give you power to support your unclean acts. and I find it very discussing that you would bring God in the bedroom ,as the bible says for unnatural purposes, really . a man made book of your opinions mean nothing to me. Really have you let satan take control of your tongue, your mind , and with that he has won your soul

      ! So do not write me anymore I will not respond.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Sad, but your choice completely, which we must accept.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      You see I am not concerned about what you accept ! I want to follow Jesus example, I want to please the Heavenly Father, It sounds like you want to please your flesh, that's the difference . 2 Corinthians 4:18 makes it very clear , keep your eyes on the things unseen (heavenly things) because the things seen is only temporary. meaning your pleasure is only short lived. But your relationship with God can last forever!,many choose the flesh , not the relationship

      .the end.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Your impressions of me are wrong.

      If you were simply stating your beliefs, and telling us (me) what was the basis for your everyday life, I would have no problem with that... I am not entitled to interfere in what you see as right for your life.

      Neither are you entitled to judge me or interfere in my life, regardless of your chosen beliefs.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Well who was the one to say listen to Hanavee? You did ,you did just what you said I should not do! You interfered with my choice.

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      I simply find it astounding that Christians blindly accept the doctrines they are taught and they freely limit themselves to reading those portions of the bible that they believe support those doctrines.They limit themselves to English translations and call it study. It never occurs to them that the translators and leaders interpret the texts for them. Why don't they approach the bible with the same objective integrity that a scientist, doctor, or historian approaches their chosen field? The answer is that they are taught to not use their God given brains, that human wisdom is useless, so they defer to the ignorant and blindly accept as truth when somebody says "the Holy Spirit revealed to me."

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      KIss, I did not interfere with your choice, only came in when I saw you were making a judgment on me and everyone else who is homosexual.

      I did say listen to Hanavee. You have not read through what he has written to the extent of really understanding what he has been saying. Otherwise you would not make such adamant statements about "satan controlling us."

      Anyone who is totally comfortable with their religious views, and feels secure in their understanding of the christ-like life, will have no fear of reading Hanavee's postings. Nor will they be afraid to read that book which his talking about.

      If you fear that your "faith" will be tested and that your opinion might be challenged too much, then your faith is a bit empty, in my estimation.

      If you say you trust your god, yet satan is more powerful in tempting you if you read that book, then your faith is not much use in your life.

      I am happy to look into the bible from time to time, even though I do not accept the christian dogma regarding the bible. There are things there that interest me, and the historical bases that Hanavee talks about are very interesting.

      I am not an un-spiritual person, just skeptical of bigotry.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Just a further recognition of your right to your own beliefs......you seem to enjoy a very literal interpretation of the bible. Also, your faith and beliefs are what you have built up for yourself, in your own mind.

      I doubt any other interpretation will be acceptable to you, if it does not concur with what you believe now. So, maybe it's no point in you wasting time reading that book.

    • skye2day profile image

      skye2day 4 years ago from Rocky Mountains

      jack the LAW was written by GOD though MOSES. The law was given to show the people we need a Savior. None is perfect and can keep the law. This is why Jesus Christ came to die for the sins of the world. He was GOD in flesh. You have not read the Bible. The religious people meaning scribes and pharacies did not write the Bible they were religious leaders who hated that Jesus was perfect. None found fault with HIM. NONE not Pilot, Herod or the religious people. They wanted HIM dead because He was the truth. Jesus hated religion. His Grace is what covers us and when we choose to love HIM only then are we made new. This is truth and you can turn and twist and add to it but one day sir you will know the truth. One day soon. All that deny Jesus will also be denied eternity with Him. You go somewhere when you die. It is heaven or hell. What this Christan woman is telling you is out of love not hate. None is perfect. I am only righteous because of Jesus Christ. If a seed is planted somewhere in the nonbelierer I pray it takes root. The world is not going to get better. vil and wicked will get worse. The signs are all around as written in the word of GOD. Jesus is going to return. He laid down HIS life for you, for me, for all. You have made a choice. We do have free will on who we will follow the lies of the world the devi, or the truth of Jesus. I do not hate you or Hanove, I feel for you. Truly I do. I know what it is like to be in bondage of sin. I was once there. People hated Jesus and continue to trample on Him because we love Jesus Christians are persecuted. All over the world persecuted put to death!!! We share the truth. People would rather wither in sin and die I guess and live in darkness. Don't you get it no one has to die eternal death. Jesus came so we could have life. Eternal death is eternal separation from Jesus. We can see GOD everywhere the sun, flowers, mountains, sky, gardens, waterfalls, in doctors, nurses, teachers, the true church but when separated from GOD there will be no light none. There will be no evedence of God when one that denies Jesus dies. There will be no light only dark. When we love Jesus we want to tell you. Don't think that Christians came riding into knowing Jesus on a pink cloud. We were miserable in sin. We came to Jesus to save us. Remember this and ponder on it. Accept Jesus as your Lord you will be saved. Why is it you hate Christians? God is not up there with a whip to cleanse us. His yoke is easy His way is light. He is life. It is sin that destroys us. How do you know if you do not know what it is like to know Jesus Christ. How can you say we Christians are all wrong and bigots. Again Moses wrote Lev and Deut. With that being said. I am standing for my Lord and Saviour doing HIS work and I pray one seed will be planted. It is not up to me but Jesus. He can bend your heart or He can allow it to remain cold. You do have a choice. Maybe one day you will be saved before you die. One never knows about tomorrow. We could walk out of the door and get run over and die. It will be too late then. Myself I am ready for the Lord to return. I will be with the Lord when I leave this body. How can it be one is willing to loose their soul to gain the world? No enemy can stand against me because Jesus is for HIS children. I am His Child. Jesus is the KING OF KINGS

      I dust off my boots I am gone. God in your mercy touch those who persecute you. Forgive them they do not know what they do. I pray that you and hanavee are touched with the love of Jesus.

      In Christ Jesus, Skye

      PS HANAVEE Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I am not into religion. Jesus hated religion. Get it right hanavee. You have no clue what you speak. May God help you as you go on lectures leading others to a lie from the devil. God hates homosexuality. Nothing you do or say will change the fact. Your 'church' will not stand. It is built on sand. The true church of God will stand we are built on His ROCK, solid foundation. May God move on you and knock your 'ministry' clean off the beach. . Your ministry is a foolish lie. You have taken GODS word out of context. You hanavee are the religious one here. You hate that Christians love Jesus and share the truth. You are like the scribes. Hating those who love Jesus saying you love God and HIS word but deny His word as truth and add a bunch of babble in Gods HOLY word. May God help you hanavee.

    • skye2day profile image

      skye2day 4 years ago from Rocky Mountains

      The above comment was meant for johhny and hanovee typo is addressed to jack, sorry about that. Skye

    • profile image

      Deborah Sexton 4 years ago

      I agree with you Hanavee

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Oh My Dear skye2day, you have got it so bad.... and "it" has got you, my Dear.

      You honour me by confusing me with Hanavee, he's got so much more knowledge than I.

      Have fun in your life.

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      Sky2day, it is very sad that you refuse to even consider someone else's view, or question the position you hold. We can only grow in wisdom if we question everything and honestly search to see if what we are told is true. You have been told by your pastors that God hates homosexuality and you only read English bibles. You accept these positions without question and will not tolerate an opposing view.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Disappearinghead, the impression I get from the profile is that it's not worth discussing with this guy. Might be wrong.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      I am unable to answer anything of that because it's outside of my area of knowledge.

      You seem hell-bent on criticizing both Hanavee and Disappearinghead, because, it seems, you have a conventional christian belief. Is that so?

      As far as I can judge of Hanavee's Hub here, where he repeatedly quotes the book it is because he does not want to stand alone in his understanding of scriptures and history. I don't see it as a ploy to sell more books.

      Hanavee has been courteous, patient and thoughtful whenever he has had to deal with abject criticisms from ardent christians.

      Then I go to your profile to see who I am dealing with and maybe I have misjudged you, but are you homophobic? You have lots of ladies displayed on you profile page, so maybe you are staunchly heterosexual and regard homosexuality as wrong/bad. Is that so? Because if that is the case it would be colouring your attitude to Hanavee's hub.

      Am I right or wrong in any of these suppositions?

      Knowing the answers would help me to address the subject in question, i.e. the book.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      jonnycomelately, I am not using my own authority, dictating what I can do for people... I am indicating that the authority of God matters and who can stand against it? No one. Whether or not you think His authority permeates everything and all will be answerable to Him in the end is irrelevant. He can and will save all who call upon Him and who follow Him. So, you misunderstood me, but hopefully that helps you understand where I am coming from.

      Hanavee, no matter how much info I say I have studied, nor where I get my resources, it seems you will say it is not enough until I come to the conclusions you have come to... namely the wrong ones. The truth is I have studied and I have learned from those who are scholars and those who are scholars who know more on the Bible than both of us combined have written study material which lines up with the written Word which we have now-a-days.

      You also seem to miss the fact that God used men to write His Word. These men were not perfect, however, the words God wanted to be written were written and His Word has been kept infallable throughout history. Sure you can present "errors" in the written Word, but entire books have been written to show how these "errors" are not errors in theology nor contradictions in thought... the Bible has been kept better than you presume. Also, Paul was a man, but his letters, which became books of the Bible were inspired by God, so his influences do not determine how much or little we are to follow his books... we do so because they are the words of God, written down to mankind.

      You can also take and apply the rat poison idea to your doctrine... for your doctrine is fatally flawed and leads away from the reality of the Word. Again, to declare yourself a prophet and spokesperson of God seems quite far off the mark. You take His Word and twist it. Perhaps you should consider the influences which shaped your perspective.

      And yet again, the point of the origin of homosexuality seems to be escaping this situation without a sufficient answer. The 'choice' fact is very much a reality yet gets swept under the wrong over and over again. If you are presuming homosexual behavior to be fine (and supposedly fine according to the Bible) then how do you escape the obvious Biblical principles of not being chained in an unhealthy lifestyle? The situation is homosexuality is a lifestyle, how would you show it otherwise? If you repeat something long enough people start to believe it is true... for example: 'they were born that way', 'we were born that way'... what evidence is there of this type of statement? None. Please indicate how anyone can say this and suppose anyone else should believe them. Again, there is no reason to believe this to be true.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Sojourner1234,

      "I am indicating that the authority of God matters and who can stand against it." ONLY if you believe that such a god exists. I do not accept that premise.

      "You also seem to miss the fact that God used men to write His Word." Again, this is your Belief! Not a fact, even if you chose to treat it as such.

      "The truth is I have studied and I have learned from those who are scholars and those who are scholars." And yet you refuse to read and fully understand what this scholar, Havanee, is saying. Selective reading (or deliberately ingoring) is obviously your greatest skill.

      "The situation is homosexuality is a lifestyle, ....." It is NOT! We are all ordinary humans like yourself. We live a wide variety of lifestyles across the world, in virtually every country. We have the same needs, desires, difficulties, love lives and concerns that anyone else has. If you think we have a particular "habit" that is practised only by us, then you are again mistaken. It is also none of your business what goes on in other partnerships. Beliefs do not lift your knowledge.

      You prejudice and your ignorance is what drives you. To the detriment of a very large proportion of the world's community. If you call this christian then, once again, I will NEVER consider myself to be one!

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      What have you got against sex? Do you think sex is displeasing to God? How were you conceived, by an immaculate conception? I thought the Virgin Mary only had one child.

      Prudishness is not a requirement of Jesus Christ.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      There you go again, blaming God for your bigotry and prejudice. The Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality, but I'm sure all the people in your church do. Birds of a feather flock together, but that doesn't make them angels.

      The Bible does not condemn homosexuality, and if you really wanted to know the truth, rather than just your prejudices, you would read the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," from Xlibris. You might just learn that ignorance of the truth isn't permanent.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      You say that you want to follow the example of Jesus, yet your mind is closed to the possibility of being like Jesus, because Jesus not only questioned the religious bigots who said Samaritans were unclean people, Jesus went and spent time with them, treating them as His equal. How many gay friends do you have?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Disappearinghead,

      One of my professors used to say that God gets blamed for a lot of things for which He is not responsible. People are taught their bigotries from the adults who passed them on down the line, and without questioning, the bigotry and ignorance keep right on being taught and believed. It takes someone who really wants to know the truth to finally say, wait, let me study to see if this way I have been taught is correct. The blind lead the blind. Those who truly use the senses that God gave them know that education leads away from ignorance. Why should anyone be content to simply continue the sorrow that bigotry creates?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Skye,

      Actually, the way you act, the way you write, all of it is exactly the way the Pharisees acted. And, yes, yours is a religion. Even though it seems to be based on the teachings of Jesus, it fails all tests of His teachings. You react with anger, rather than compassion, you curse those not of your beliefs system, you are ready to condemn all who do not think like you, and you hate homosexuals. Yep, you'll get a talking to when Jesus comes.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Deborah,

      Thank you, and may the Lord bless your life with His peace.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Skye,

      Don't worry. I know your hyper anger can't separate me from the love of God. But, I am praying for you tonight.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      Thanks for that news that you bought the book. I will pass that information on to the author. I have really enjoyed reading it and sharing the information with others. There have been so many study groups starting up since this was published, and it is very heartwarming to hear from people who have been persecuted all their lives by anti-gay bigots. They now can see that God loves them just as much as He loves non-gays.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Disappearinghead,

      You are so right. If something is true, it can stand to be questioned, and if it is false, it will not stand the test of scrutiny.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      If you do not think that the Bible has errors in it, I have some news for you. Just tell me that you actually think that there are no errors, and I am going to have fun showing you quite a few.

      You refuse to even consider that the Bible does not back your anti-homosexual prejudice, and the same attitude prevailed when "Christian Whites" lynched innocent Blacks for the crime of being Black. These same "Christian Whites" sang hymns during the lynchings. This was not just once in a rare occasion, but very common, and these same "Christians" used the same denials to hang on to their prejudices and bigotries that you keep using to hang on to your hatred of gay people. It's not love, sister. It is hate with a smile, and God is not the author.

      You really need to get off that high horse and read the book I have recommended. What have you got to lose? Your religion?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • profile image

      The Eye Guy 4 years ago

      Every time a follower of a religion finds something in his or her religion that is not agreeable to him or her, a new religion could be born. It worked for King Henry VIII and Martin Luther and it can work for homosexuals too. I believe that like King Henry VIII and Martin Luther, the homosexuals should just leave the Christians who interpret the Bible to condemn homosexuality alone.. Let them think how they think. They, like the homosexuals have the right to have whatever opinion they want. And they have the right to assemble in any like minded groups they want. So, homosexuals... stop arguing with them and let them have their church... You can always just start your own homosexual church where every heterosexual is the bad guy or whatever you want. Very easy problem to solve. No need to argue and call each other names. Its silly and childish.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      The Eye Guy,

      Actually, most homosexuals have either formed their own churches, or they are worshiping with churches that know the truth about the love of Jesus. Unfortunately, those anti-gay "Christians" usually get so worked up that anybody would dare allow homosexuals equal rights, that they make it their business to deny them rights every chance they get, then blame it on just showing the homosexuals that they love them and are doing it all for their good.

      These same "Christians" recently went to Uganda to create an anti-homosexual movement that has resulted in laws being proposed in the Ugandan parliament, laws which will order the deaths of all homosexuals. Very easy to verify all of this. Simply Google "Uganda declares death to all homosexuals." Enjoy the reading, brought to you courtesy of those "anti-gay, but loving, Christians."

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Yes God Amighty created it ,but certainly he did not mean for you to abuse it. You people have more respect for a judge in a court of law, they address him your honor, then allow him to speak without interruptions, they even stand up as he comes in the court room ,and you. Respect that! But most important is that even the judge in the court of law respects the bible, many hold there hand on it ,and I am sure you will not tell the Judge what you will a do and will not do, And the real truth is the judge recognizes an Authority Higher then himself ,this one will judge every one.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Kiss andTales, yes, I can and do recognise a "higher authority" than my own perceptions. .... Not the judgmental entity that you imagine, just an understanding that my opinions are always just that, and either right or wrong, I can always learn from the opinions of others.

      The older we get the more we need to default to that Higher Authority.

      Who in your life represents a higher authority? Is it your pastor? He/she might be far from correct in his/her judgment... and do you ever question him/her? Does you god speak through them? Beware!

      But then, don't listen to me..... you know I am far from perfect, so just dream on.

      Read that book if you have some spare time. If you don't have the time, at least re-read Hanavee's Hub, that should not take too long.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      God is the potter, and we are the clay. I was once one of those who condemned homosexuals. I regret every word I said to them now. We are all siblings and children of the all High. You will be persecuted by those who say they are christians, but do not act like it. My suggestion to you friend is to embrace the persecution as our Lord and Saviour did. God be with you friend.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      REading all of these posts and claims that there is everythig and every answer in that book that has been so manipulated to suit any political agenda is rather funny. Not one of you who are trashing Havanee or any other who can read that Bible as well as yourself who are judging can read the most important thing that is in that Bible to begin with. It is stated in that Bible that not everything is in that Bible.

      What is that telling you and what are you understanding of that....not everything is in the Bible....it would have to wrap around the world several times to be complete and even Jesus stated that we would do more and greater things than he. Where and why are the clergy hiding all those other 90% of things?

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      For the past few hours I have been thinking a lot about this Hub, and the people contributing to it. There are lots of important considerations we need to look into.

      Some of you here, who have a strong christian faith, might be getting angry at the way your opinions are so often shot down in flames, as though you are not entitled to your particular views. I have been trying to see things from your point of view. It is not a comfortable process to be told that the concepts, precepts, morals which you have been taught and accepted for a very long time in your life, are not “true,” not founded in solid rock as you had believed.

      I have often stated, sincerely, that each of us has the right to a belief, and understanding, a faith, which we feel comfortable with. That still holds true. However, when that belief translates into an actual threat to a minority, then I feel compelled to step up and declare my point of view.

      To believe that homosexual people are living in sin, and that they will come under shocking judgment and punishment for “doing what they do,” and “being what they are,” can and does have a real physical affect upon the lives of others who are often not in a position to defend themselves. It opens the door to a whole series of vilification and violence which most would be unaware of.

      We humans just love a clear, neatly cut out set of guidelines to make our lives easy. We don't like making big, difficult decisions. So, if someone has given us such a set of guidelines, whether it's fully true or not, then if enough of us accept what is written, we feel strong as a group. We get that feeling of security and have the courage to confront others with what we all believe. At last we have authority.

      Being a gregarious species as we are, when this translates into reality it can result in all manner of unjust, cruel and intimidating activities. Just think of occasions in history where a minority of people have suffered because the majority of the population took the easy escape route and just let the oppression happen.

      In Hitler's Third Reich, many ordinary people in the population knew, or at least had a sense of, what was going on against the Jews, the Gipsies, the mentally impaired, the deformed, yes – and the homosexuals. Yet they had been lulled into letting things just happen, because they could turn a blind eye. “Someone else's problem, not mine.” The greater good of the Reich and a belief in a great man carried the day!

      In the slavery days of America, people would flock to see the entertainment of black people being hung up to die, after having been whipped, stripped, castrated, humiliated. If anyone had any doubts about the morality of this they could always turn to the guidelines in the bible and find some kind of justification. Especially if everyone backed up everyone else. Safety: and one can get lost in a crowd, not be brought to account.

      The same in South Africa' Apartheid. When you feel that everyone else is comfortable with what is going on, it's easier to fall into line and just let it happen.

      In our modern day, in some sections of the Muslim society, the crowd will love it when a homosexual man gets strung up. They will invoke the Will of God to justify their actions. THIS HAPPENS when individuals stop thinking and acting for themselves and, instead, leave the moral decisions to someone else. Your holy men, your pastor, your Archbishop, even your Pope, can make all the decisions and take all the responsibility of your shoulders. Ultimately, your proclaimed belief in a forgiving Jesus can relieve you of all blame.

      This is why I am so concerned as to be here in this Hub, fighting against just plain ignorant hogwash.

      I warm to each of you in your human need for acceptance. You and I are fundamentally the same in our desire for acceptance and love. So let's stop the senseless throwing of mud and stones at each other. Just learn to accept the beauty of difference and diversity that can and does colour our lives into a real and lasting joy.

      Heterosexual, homosexual, man, woman, child, black, pink, coffee-coloured, yellow, albino.... we are all human and can live side-by-side happily, if only we do just a little work on our own attitudes.

      Sorry this has been such a long draft, but please don't dismiss it without a lot of careful thought.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      I normally don't agree at all with jonnycomelately, but I think he nailed it in his last post. But I also cannot see how your belief is justified. So what if anyone wants to delete their hub or comments. I delete comments and get mine deleted sometimes. That's life.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Jack, without any hatred towards you, this bit was designed especially for you: "....if only we do just a little work on our own attitudes." That's just 12 words, lol. You obviously don't need to read everything else in my post if you don't want to.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      What is YOUR problem? I sincerely hope that you never sit or be at work or eat in a restaurant with someone who MAY be Gay....and how the heck would you know if you shared anything with them? You are one very prejudiced person and you know what---what goes around comes around and some day all this will come back to bite your little arse. I hope you are ready.

      So what if her wrote it? He is not the only one who writes those things.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      have you ever thought that the highest has his way of speaking to you , have you ever thought that maybe instead of this ego thing going on with this subject of homosexuality is really getting more attention then it should be ,and sex is not the most important thing about life. Jesus said man can not live on bread alone on but every word that comes from his mouth ,even husband and wife can not live in the bedroom 24 hours a day, there is more other things that life has to offer while we have the gift of life ,Yes there are people that will bash your decision ,but that does not make them right in how they express another's sin as God would see it, yet that does not mean they are wrong about the subject of truth, you defend what you want to live and do , I did not make bible law. Neither did I make the law of this land, it is wrong to steal,kill, and other laws we have to obey here on earth, Yet that is the same laws in the Bible ,you have no problem with that ,But I guess if stealing makes you happy ,and that law you would fight also and call people haters because they see the problem with it. What about killing ,would you write a book and say there is nothing wrong in killing innocent people and babies. Would you call people haters because they disagree with this also ,this is exactly the same thing ,you are fighting everyone that has a problem with this issue ,and fist of all when you made it a public announcement of your choice ,you welcome people to express theirs , now you feel threaten , too many are saying it is wrong, the way God meant it to be. I am not going to help some one sale a book that is out right saying God is lie, really did he lie about death? that is what Satan told Eve Really is it so that God said you will die ,and she knew the law and repeated what God had said ,and Satan said you will not die ,because you will become like him! I ask you can any man put a guarantee they will be alive tomorrow ? God's word is still alive ,as long as we are plagued with sin and death ,his word is still valid. and believe me I will give my life on that.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      GOD AND HIS KINGDOM AND THAT INCLUDES RELIGION'S SATAN IS WITHIN YOU. CONDEMN BUT ALSO BE READY TO BE CONDEMNED.

      Not One person thought about that 10% only being in that Bible. Not One of youhave considered only what Jesus said in the Bible or what other things that he did which was not in the Bible. You all are liars because you are only using 10 percent to condemn others with.

      I bet none of you realize that this is not about SEX, but all of you have put your minds in the gutter with that. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT SEX. It is about relationships and people and humans. GET YOUR MINDS OUT OF THE GUTTER.

      It is all about Legal Rights. I would tell you a tory about that but I am not going to because you all have your heads up in the darkest part of your bodies and won't listen anyway.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      well who would have the time and space to write it all ,and who would read It all, I notice you have not read every post on the subject because many have given credit to Jesus words, in all fairness everyone is not all liars,you have not listed all things but no one is calling you a liar.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      To All,

      I started this hub to help people. It is still my wish that this hub help people. Healthy dialogue is how we all grow. Even the Bible says that we should come and reason together. Unfortunately, there are some people who are so homophobic, that any dialogue on the subject is a challenge to their bigoted comfort zone. They do not know how to defend their bigotry, so they don't want to hear anyone show that they may just be wrong to be a bigot. Rather than study to see if maybe their bigotry is harming others, they would rather destroy anything that makes them look inwardly. Such people would rather destroy the book I recommend without ever reading it. Such was the case when the ancient Library of Alexandria in Egypt was destroyed by the Muslim conquest, and the Muslim conqueror who ordered its destruction, thus removing priceless books, copies of the Old Testament books, and more from our ability to reference them, used as his excuse to destroy all of these irreplaceable books that "they will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are unnecessary." This Muslim leader never read any of the books in the Great Library of Alexandria, but he ordered the library burned nonetheless. He did not do the world any favors when he burned books that would have shown us so much.

      One person who has been posting here has never read the book I mentioned, but because it challenges him to consider his bigotry, to even think about the pain and suffering his bigotry has caused others, he would rather see this hub disappear, he would rather try to prevent others from reading this book, and he will never contribute a genuine discussion of what is written in this book. He has attacked me, he has attacked the author, he has attacked the book, and not once has he even made any attempt to read the book, or even to discuss the Theology outlined in the book. I am unimportant, the author is unimportant, and the only thing that is important here is the message in this book. Agree with it, or disagree with it, the choice is yours, but don't burn the book just because you did not write it.

      There are some sincere people here on this hub, whether you be for the rights of gays, or whether you be against the rights of gays. You all have a right to be here, and as hard as it is for some of you to hold back your emotions sometimes, nonetheless, you all have a right to be heard, I think, because you are not here to stir hate and bigotry, but to defend your beliefs, and as long as you are engaged in simply defending your beliefs, and even trying to convince me that I am wrong, I enjoy your comments and will allow them. But, if you become like the person whom I deleted from this hub, a person who does not add to the discussion, but only comes here to make trouble, you will be deleted. If I delete your posts, and you return once you have been deleted, then I will bring you to the attention of the owners of HubPages.

      Please feel free to contribute. Discuss your beliefs freely. But attacking me, or the author, or trying to stir up hate...that is just not discussion. That is mob mentality. Stir up the mobs, lynch the person who is the center of attention, and no one is made better for this. I love all of you, and I hope that we can continue to have these great discussions.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      Since no one was in the desert with Jesus but Satan, we will have to assume that what happened in that wilderness experience was only partially reported by the Gospels. For having spent forty days in the wilderness, we can assume that more happened than just the few lines written in the Gospels. Thus, when you say that Jesus was never tested on the subject of sex, only Jesus knows the answer to that...not you, nor I. Jesus was quite familiar with the subject of sex and love. Don't forget that he attended the wedding at Capernaum, and he knew prostitutes as friends. Even though He most likely did not have sex, He was well aware of this wonderful gift of God. Jesus was certainly no prude.

      And, sister, pleasure is not my god. For you to sit in judgment of someone you do not know, have never met, and whose dedication to God you cannot even begin to fathom, you should prayerfully consider how Jesus would think if He heard you make such comments. I love the same Jesus Christ that you do. I serve the same God Almighty that you do. And just because you disagree with my beliefs does not give you the authority to speak condemnation as if you speak for God, Himself. Be very careful of disobeying the commandment, "Judge not."

      Sister, we can disagree with each other, but neither of us is going to Hell because our theological views differ.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      You keep saying that you call homosexuality a wrong that God has condemned, which is actually incorrect, because, as the book I recommended has ably shown, the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. You keep quoting verses that have been proven to be incorrectly translated. Why not read the book, then come back with reasons that you disagree with the book? If nothing else, why not simply look at how your anti-gay beliefs have been used to bring sorrow and pain to others? There is nothing wrong with believing that homosexuality is a sin, but when you use your religious beliefs to deny the civil rights of others, you make your religion one of hate instead of love. Jesus said that we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Harder to do than it first seems. Jesus did not say "Love your heterosexual neighbors only."

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      You say that you want to follow the example of Jesus. Jesus was persecuted by the religious and pious of His day, because He dared to keep company with "those sinners." Everyone that the ultra-religious condemned, Jesus made friends with. Ultimately, Jesus the Liberal was tortured and crucified by the Ultra-Right-Wing Conservative Religious people who never truly got His message of loving "everybody."

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Disappearinghead,

      You make an excellent point. If people want to genuinely know what the Bible says, then study it with objectivity, and don't be afraid to learn. Don't try to make the Bible say what you want it to, but rather, learn what the Bible really says. Proper translation requires no less.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Jonnycomelately,

      You make an excellent point. Many years ago, the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" came to the theaters, and, being a student of Theology, I wanted to see this movie. I remember that some Fundamentalist Christians were all upset that this movie was going to be shown, and they threatened the theater with bomb threats. How Christian is that? Bomb threats? If the movie was false, it would still not change the truth of Jesus. But, the movie was not false, and bomb threats were not going to stop me from seeing the movie.

      I also remember some Fundamentalist Christian writing a letter to the editor in the local newspaper making one false accusation after another about the movie. I remember one of them was that the movie showed John the Baptist giving Jesus a French kiss. This same writer wrote so many more of these false accusations, and after I watched the movie, I found that not one of his falsehoods was even remotely possible. How many people missed the movie because of this liar's false accusations? How many people then went on to tell others that this movie featured a French kiss that never existed?

      My point is, the movie was wonderful, inspiring, and made me appreciate Jesus all that much more. And I will always remember those who were so set against it that they even threatened to bomb the theater...and they had never even seen the movie. They lied and said that they knew what was in the movie, but they had never set eyes on it. The thought that this movie might challenge their beliefs was just too much for them, yet their fanatical reactions were not examples of Jesus.

      Jesus went home to dinner with the most reviled people in His society. He kept frequent company with every possible kind of person reviled by the religious. There is something to be learned by studying the "real" Jesus instead of this hyper-religious, "holier-than-thou-art" version who would never have known the true existence of the people to whom He came to preach love and salvation.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Skye,

      You don't show the love of Jesus when all you do is tell a person who differs from your religious beliefs that you hope that "God ...knocks your ministry clean off the beach...your ministry is a foolish lie..." and more like this. How about defending your anti-gay beliefs with studying God's word? Rather than study, you would prefer to rant and call people names. You are so unaware of the pain you have brought to the lives of people who been persecuted for the simple fact that they were born gay. All of the pain and sorrow that these people have endured will be lain at the feet of those who have brought it, even if you don't want to acknowledge this.

      God is the judge. If all the pain you have helped bring into this world against gay people is not against His will for us, then you have nothing to worry about. Continue to inflict.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      You speak as if Paul is always writing as if a dictation secretary for God, as if Paul never writes anything but what God is telling him directly. Paul's words are God's words, and therefore, infallible. Let's let Paul set that record straight.

      Does Paul ever speak as himself? In other words, is everything that Paul says a commandment of God? In 1 Corinthians 7:6, Paul writes:

      “But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.”

      Same chapter, verse 12:

      “But to the rest speak I, not the Lord . . .”

      In this same chapter, Paul is speaking about marrying, and he has some very noteworthy comments to study regarding the subject of who is the author of Paul’s words. Verse 25 reads:

      “Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.”

      More than one occasion, Paul tells us that it is simply he, Paul, who is speaking as himself.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tell,

      You use the example of the respect we show on Earth when standing before a judge of the court of human law, and how we ought to show even greater respect for the Law Giver, God. If we are to show respect for God, don't you think that we ought to show respect for His creation? Don't you think we ought to show respect for His children?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Kiss and Tales,

      As long as you continue to equate a person's sexual orientation with the crime of being a murderer, we will not agree. I know for a fact that science has shown us how DNA determines so much of our identity, including your sexual orientation, and I personally believe that God, Himself, is the author of that DNA chain of orders. Neither you nor I created DNA, so I think we ought to respect the Maker who did.

      He made people who are homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual and transsexual, just to name a few of the variations in human sexuality. He did not just make you.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      I have watched with great sadness the unfolding news story today of the tragic bombings in Boston. Somewhere, there is a narrow-minded man who cannot tolerate those who are different from himself, so he has taken it upon himself to mindlessly kill innocent human beings. Whether it is one man, or a group of men, it is a clear demonstration of hatred for others. This is the example against which I constantly preach, that there are those who will not allow others to exist who do not think, talk, dress, live and act exactly as they do. Down through the centuries, we have example after sad example of man's inhumanity to man. Can we ever learn to love one another as Christ taught, or are we doomed to eventually annihilate our entire race with war?

      Christians! We are called of God to separate ourselves from this hatred. We are to be examples of peace, of love, of long-suffering, of giving, of helping others, of forgiving. May we pray to God for strength to show the love of God and to be worthy of the name of Jesus by our actions daily.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Amen to that Hanavee. One day I might return to a church in order to pray for inspiration when this sort understanding is normal. Meanwhile I remain non-christian.

      Please excuse the underscore for now. I am using a new Android while waitng in the airport and don't know yet how to turn off underscore. Modern tech for the older man! A 7-year old would know!

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      The good news is that there are many churches that have come to realize the sanctity of all human life, that God made us all equally loved, and their doors are open to all who wish to come and worship with them. God is blessing these churches. I know, because I attend one. We have Blacks and Whites worshiping side by side with great love for one another. We have homosexuals, heterosexuals and transsexuals working together for the betterment of all. We have former Hindus and former Atheists, young and old, single and married, those who love classical music and those who love country music. The wonderful thing is that in my church, we know that all of us belong to God, that He made us in the variety that He did, and that He loves us all just the way He made us. Therefore, we worship Him for the love He has shown us to bring us together as One. You'll know God's people by the joy in their lives, as well as the joy they bring to others.

      Jesus said that "Whosoever will" could come to Him and enjoy the life He promised His believers. That promise was not followed with a list of exceptions, and Jesus personally knew every type of human being that could possibly exist. His door was never closed. Such should be the way all churches that claim to represent His teachings should conduct themselves.

      And by the way, you don't have to be in church to pray for inspiration. God is everywhere at all times. He hears us even when we are just thinking to him. We don't have to go to some religious location to be heard. The main reason for going to a church is to exercise that love of Jesus with fellow believers, true believers, because they help strengthen our knowledge of the goodness of the Lord. Coming together with loving people is good for the soul in more ways than one. I know. My church is my home more than my physical house. Every time I am in my church with those liberated and loving souls, I tell people it is like having my batteries re-charged.

      So, whether you believe in God or Jesus or nothing yet, find a church made up of "True Believers," the ones who know that all of God's children are to be loved equally, the ones that are not afraid to say that gays are welcome as equals. Let the fellowship be a welcome home party, because among the True Believers, the ones who know that gays are also God's children, you are truly home, truly loved and truly needed.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      jonnycomelately, you state as a fact that homosexuality is not a lifestyle. If you state this as a fact then what proof is there to support your premise? At least combat the fact that there are identical twins, who share DNA, where one is homosexual and the other heterosexual. Or the fact that some people have been homosexual and have changed to a heterosexual lifestyle and are even married to someone of the opposite sex. Just because something goes against your perspective and you see people as not accepting a certain lifestyle, and this upsets you... it does not change the truth of the matter. There is a God who loves people, wants them to come to Himself, and has made a way... people just need to respond to Him and accept Him. If someone doesn't it doesn't mean that God is not the answer for him/her, it means they simply have not accepted the truth... because God IS the answer.

      Hanavee, several things: 1st, I'm a guy (not a sister), so thanks for adjusting how you address me from now on. Also, sure there are 'errors' in the translated Bible, but there are many books with information about these supposed 'errors'... so take the advise you seem to push about reading the book you continue to recommend and read the books which counter the idea that there are all these errors in the Bible. It is simply known that these 'errors' have been debunked as insignificant to the message of the Word of God. Also, it does bring the question of God's power and plan back to the table: do you think God could not keep His Word untainted? I think so. When people try to bring doctrine outside of the realm of God's intent there will be opposition to stop such 'new revelations', like trying to toss out hell or toss out the sin of homosexuality, for example. And again, the situation with people using the Bible to support the hate and attacking of black persons was, and is, wrong and foolish. This is not even close to a comparable issue to that of the homosexual situation. I am not advocating that the people are evil and we should act against them, I am indicating their actions and lifestlye are wrong (as does the Bible) and they should adjust their lifestyle to that of accepting Christ as Lord & Savior... it's quite a big difference. Also, my motivation is not hate (nor is that of the Bible), it is love for people and hope for people to come to know the truth and to accept God's free gift of salvation... it seems I have to repeat myself to you because you simply assume hatred if I don't agree with them. Does that mean you hate me and those who disagree with you? Perhaps you only understand it in those terms, I'm not sure. Again, after Paul addresses this situation in 1 Corinthians 6 he initially indicates those in this lifestyle (of homosexuality), and other lifestyles and sins, will not inherit eternal life... but he says, "11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." So, Paul (and the Bible) are giving hope... not condeming and leaving no possilbe hope for those in the lifestyle of homosexuality. He was indicating that people were in this lifestyle and changed by accepting the gospel. That's what I'm saying and what I believe... and it is what the Bible truly teaches, despite any thoughts or reasonings to the contrary.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Hanavee, it also seems you are suggesting that though the Bible has errors, as you claim, the book you are supporting and proposing everyone read is error free. So, do you suppose that book infallible? Is it more accurate than the Bible, God's Word, kept for thousands years as God's message to the world? Perhaps this new book could start a new sort of belief... one focusing on the non-sin of lifestyles, such as homosexuality. Perhaps we can use this book to completely do away with all sexual sins, maybe even all sin altogether, and why not toss out hell at the same time?

      Do you see how this might seem to be going against Christianity completely? This type of thinking and method is that of Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and Muslims... take the Bible and use it up until it contradicts some other book which these cults/religions have deemed more powerful and infallible than the Bible. What you're suggesting lines up very well with these other beliefs. Perhaps you can explain why this new book, with new revelations about the Bible, is actually better than the Bible. Please let us know why your book is better. I understand you are a prophet of God, and therefore perhaps you think you have the authority to add or subtract from God's own Word at your liesure.

      While you're at it please explain how we know the homosexual lifestyle is not a lifetsyle... perhaps you have some new scientific revelation on that front as well.

    • profile image

      The Eye Guy 4 years ago

      Hanavee, the one thing about all your writings is that you constantly label everybody who disagrees with you as a bigot and a homophobe and you compare those who disagree with you to racists. Very closed minded way to open a free discussion. This is the reason people are becoming upset at you. Yes its true, the more Orthodox Christians should not be putting you down or calling you names, but many of them here have not done this. You also need to follow the same etiquette. In your discussions, you have failed to prove your argument and you answer their questions with the word bigot and homophobe. Let me explain to you how religion works... yes every religion. A religion offers a lifestyle with a Do's and Don'ts list. Generally, those who follow this list and follow the prescribed lifestyle get eternal bliss or paradise or 58 virgins or whatever after they die. The Christians believe that their book, "The Bible", has homosexuality as one of their Don'ts. Every person has the right to believe what they wish. You need to respect that belief. You are wrong. Why? Not because you believe that homosexuality is ok and God is fine with homosexuality. That is not your problem. All you did here is promote a belief system that contradicts the established Bible of Christianity. What you did wrong is what Adolf Hitler did, what Joseph Stalin did, what Saddam Hussein did, what Kim Jong Un does.

      No you are NOT an evil killer. But your similarity is that you publicly mock and shame all those who disagree with you. You label those who do not see your views as bigots and homophobes and racists. This is how you are wrong. Just like your belief should be respected, the beliefs of the Orthodox Christians should also be respected. Don't put them down and tell them they are bad people. Just accept that some people will not agree with you and move on. Try to convert somebody to your style of thinking who has not been contacted before. If you get rejected, just politely thank them for hearing you out and move on. Do not cry out that he or she is an evil god-hating homophobic racist bigot. That is how you lost all your credibility, Hanavee. You need to learn to accept rejection. I mean didn't Christ himself simply accept that some people did not follow him and he politely just moved on to the next? Yes religions try to spread the word of their beliefs and their gods, do the same, its ok. But do not go on a rampage every time somebody rejects it, just move on to the next potential convert, ok?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      The Eye Guy,

      Where you go wrong is assuming that there is no harm in some Christians believing that homosexuality is a sin. This is a grave mistake, because it assumes that these same Christians do nothing after that. If that was all they did, believe something is a sin and refrain from it themselves, we would have no problems. I don't condemn the Jewish man who wants to fly on an airliner while he is completely wrapped from head to toe in a giant plastic bag for fear of being made ritually impure, but if this same man tried to have laws enacted that required me to do the same, I would call him a bigot, and I would work to prevent that loss of my rights.

      When Christian homophobes teach their children that they are intrinsically damaged because they are gay, when Christian homophobes try to prevent gays from holding jobs, renting homes, even visiting their loved ones in the hospital, their religion has gotten in the way of the rights of others, and when this activism leaves the Church and enters into the private lives of gays, persecuting them, bringing harm and even death to them, then it is time to educate these Christians and show them the error of their misinterpretations.

      Misinterpreting the Bible has been the cause of pain, sorrow and death to far too many people to simply overlook it. You compared me to Hitler. Actually, it is the other way around. When Christians who mistakenly think that God hates gays go out and take this movement to the streets, campaigning against the civil and human rights of citizens of this country, they are the real Hitler. In fact, just research the movement that began in the Christian community here in the U.S. and sent ambassadors of this anti-gay hate to Uganda in an effort to have laws passed in Uganda this year, laws that will make harboring a homosexual punishable by life in prison, and being homosexual worthy of the death penalty. Before you call me a Hitler, read the ongoing battle for the lives of homosexuals in Uganda, and study who was the Christian group behind this effort, then tell me I am mistaken.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • profile image

      The Eye Guy 4 years ago

      no, Hanavee... I will never call you Hitler, but you only executed an action that is similar to him and other dictators. Your actions of calling people bigots and homophobes is similar to that of the dictators who seek to control and dominate the world.

      And you are right about the extreme Christians also acting Hitler-esque. But I am suggesting to you that you take the high road and do not stoop down to their level. Yes the Christians have killed millions with their blind hatred, so have the Muslims and many other religious groups. Those people who have done those things are murderers. Any person who would deny a person, for whatever reason, the ability and right to have life, liberty and pursuit of happiness does not believe in freedom or peace.

      All I suggest to you is to stay on the high road as you attempt to show the world your beliefs. When you face rejection, just politely thank them for listening (or reading) and move on. If they do not even listen, just thank them for their time and move on. Do not delete posts unless they are immature, insulting and personally hurtful.

      The Hitlers of the world censor opinions and attempt to control speech. The Hitlers of the world namecall (such as bigot or homophobe or racist) when a person disagrees.

      Let them disagree, Hanavee and do not let it get you down. There are lots of people on HubPages. Keep writing about your views and keep trying to show the world, but learn to accept rejection.

      Just friendly advice, my friend.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      You know I appreciate a peaceful person ,and I do appreciate the way you express how to disagree, because if I wanted to sale anything ,the worse thing to do is make yourself an unlikable person. And call people names. If you notice I disagree with the act of the decussion , but I do not know anything about you personally other then this subject you have openly admitted, and already I have become many names, Because I disagree ,Why are you so angry ! If it is so right. When something is right you need no approval . But the problem here is that you want some one else to agree with your approval. No man can give me what God has already given me Life, and he tells me how to keep living , even if that means making adjustments and accepting when and issue is wrong, I will do it his way ! You are imperfect like me ,it shows when you get mad at all opposers.

      in Daniel 12 : 7 "and as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the holy people to pieces all these things will come to there finish,"

      Daniel said" now for me, I heard, but did not understand, so that I said O lord what will be the final part of these things, He said Go Daniel these words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end. , many will cleanse themselfs , and whiten themselfs and will be refined.and the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly,and no wicked ones will understand, but the ones having insight will understand .

      If the holy ones have been judged and they will be dashed to pieces,that means that there were not so holy to God, and he called them wicked ,next Daniel writes these words under God's spirit ,and he wrote but did not understand ,because he was told it was a secret until the end of the system. Daniel died , yet we are the ones living in the last days of this system, it is really clear that many work on bad habits ,And God has the Authority to decide what will happen to us in the future, A resurrection if we die from sickness or crime, or accident , but if we willfully practice sin as no regards to his written word and laws then we would claim the title of a wicked one , notice there are those who cleanse themselfs no one else can do that but you, So no one can tell you something is right when it is written in Gods word to be wrong. Anything else is the mark of satan.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      See no one wants to quote anything Jesus says. That is sooooo sad it is beyond words.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Well Jesus also said this good news of the kingdom will be preached to all the inhabbited nations and then the end will come, meaning the Lord's Prayer is active in letting people know world wide that Jesus was resurrected ,he went back to heaven to be given from his father rulership to be over a kingdom or Goverment that no man will ever rule over earth again , Our Goverment will not be station here on earth , Jesus have been given this Authority, Daniel 2:44 says the God of heaven will set up a Goverment that will not be passed on to men. That is how we know these Goverment are not the almighty God's governments ,because these are ruled by people or men, these are the Goverments Satan tempted Jesus to take and he declined it from the hands of satan. Jesus is very important ,and notice ,when we pray ,we pray in the name of the Father and the Son and his Holy Spirit. The Lord's Prayer says thy kingdom come ,meaning Goverment. Jesus is the one who gave up a perfect human body that had never sin, and he paid our way into the future with it, he is really our adopted father since Adams our blood father lost our future to live and die. But Jesus tasted death so that many will not have to taste death ,Or if we do you it been paid ,for us to return from your graves. That is why the word ressurection exist ,Once this earth is cleaned off and made into a paradise many will return , In Isaiah 65:17 says " For I am creating a new heavens and a new earth,and the former things will not be called to mind,neither will they come up into the heart. And Isaish 65:21 says and they will certainly build houses and occupancy ,and plant vineyards and eat its fruitage,they will not build and some one else have occupancy"""""25, This is the Good News of the Kingdom (God's Goverment). Matthew 24:14 !is really good news!Some one will come and invite you !

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      @ Kiss and Tales: Jesus stated very clearly and it is in the Bible 3 times that God's Kingdom is WITHIN us. He (Energy and not a person) is all around us and in us ans we create which comes back to us time and time again. Heaven, hell, Jesus, God, Satan, Evil and Good are all a part of us. We each have our own places in the cosmos and the cosmos has it's own place within us. Now Jesus said to Love they neighbors As Thyselves....therefore we cannot hate what another does or believes or anything of that nature and if you believe that God is outside of you then you are very mistaken. There is no ressurection outside of us.

      Jesus also told us another important law and that was to treat others as you want them to treat you...so by hating and bringing hate to others that is what you must want done to you. Do you GET IT yet? Jesus will set you free if you come away from the doctrines and the dogma of church and religion. As Above, So Below. Have you been to heaven and studied the governement there. I doubt that you did and any clergy or Pope that claims it is a liar and is only pully you by a nose ring.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      First I have not listed my faith but I have only let the scriptures that speaks for itself, there is no scripture that says the kingdom is with in you ,if you have it list it. There is nothing written in the bible about cosmos ,again list scripture, next do you see me saying I hate anyone ,point to it, show me, how can I hate some one I do not know? Next You list pope,clergy,why ? I have not, It is clear you have an opinion ,but you do not have all the facts. And your commit does not fit.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Kiss and Tale, I didn't mention your religion either. You donm't really read your own Bible but you do listen to clergy and I can prove it without a doubt.

      The first mention about we being god's is in Isaiah 41:22-24. The other 2 are John 10:33-35 and Acts 19:25-27.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      No because you do not know it , and personally unless I tell you ,you know nothing about me and who I listen to. it seems to me you want to attack me , you can do that if you wish! But that will not change the truth. That won't change facts, and that will not change what has been spoken. And I did read your scriptures nothing applies to your statement. Nothing is proof of cosmos,nothing is proof of kingdom with in as you stated, Jesus said thy Kingdom come , thy will be done on earth as in heaven. Tell me how does this sound ( thy kingdom within come,thy will be done on earth as is in heaven. or (thy Government come , thy will be done on earth as in in heaven ) is correct

      You see we are talking about a structural kingdom ,and in English as we speak today that is Government. Because if you notice he did not say the earth is in your heart ,he said let your will take place here on earth as is in heaven. Matthew 6:9 -13 that is bible truth.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      You can ignore it all that you want because it is there. None of what you are saying is obeying Jesus's laws either....Love One Another, Love Your Neighbor As Yourself and the biggest one is Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do To You. If you missed these simple verses and tell me that I am attacking you when it was YOU that wanted proof and I gave it then there is nothig else that I can say to you. Do not condemn for what you don't understand and what you won't read/not read.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      If what you are saying sounds good to you that is your free will , You are arguing with yourself. And there is nothing I have posted should be argumentative. You have shown me no proof of anything ,less known explain how you apply these scriptures . And my free choice is to say thank you for reading my post.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      What I am getting at and you are not getting is that you have no place judging Hanavee for what he believes or how he chooses to life his life. That is the point and you are not getting that. One Tenth of all Jesus miracles and life are in that Bible and you choose to judge according to that. All this will come back to haunt you, I promise you that. It may be a few months or a few years, but you will get this all back----You Shall Reap What You Sow.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Isaiah 41:22-24

      Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

      22 They bring nigh, and declare to us that which doth happen, The first things -- what they [are] declare ye, And we set our heart, and know their latter end, Or the coming things cause us to hear.

      23 Declare the things that are coming hereafter, And we know that ye [are] gods, Yea, ye may do good or do evil, And we look around and see [it] together.

      24 Lo, ye [are] of nothing, and your work of nought, An abomination -- it fixeth on you.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      John 10:33-35

      Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

      33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'

      34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

      35 if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Acts 19:25-27

      Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

      25 whom, having brought in a crowd together, and those who did work about such things, he said, `Men, ye know that by this work we have our wealth;

      26 and ye see and hear, that not only at Ephesus, but almost in all Asia, this Paul, having persuaded, did turn away a great multitude, saying, that they are not gods who are made by hands;

      27 and not only is this department in danger for us of coming into disregard, but also, that of the great goddess Artemis the temple is to be reckoned for nothing, and also her greatness is about to be brought down, whom all Asia and the world doth worship.'

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      If I am a wicked person then you are correct ! But you have judge me,and sentence me before God has . I think he is more merciful then you. I am thankful for that.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      No I haven't. Good Grief! Okay I am done with all this silliness from you.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      You said that the Bible never makes any mistakes, that there are no errors in the Bible. Okay, for starters, let's look at some. We'll go back to Genesis and study the story of Lot and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Let’s look at some obvious problems with the story as recounted by ancient Jews. It actually begins in Genesis 18, wherein Abraham, Lot’s uncle, sees three men approaching his tent in the middle of the day. The story relates that Abraham called one of these men “Lord,” as in the same term for Lord used whenever they refer to the Lord their God, יהוה “adonai.” Now, if this is the same being who is God, then how is it that Abraham prepares a great welcome dinner for the three men, and they eat it like mere mortals? He offers them the customary foot washing common to desert dwellers. Why would God need to wash His feet? From walking in the desert? Further, the one identified as Lord says that he needs to go down to see Sodom in person to see if what he hears about its wickedness is true. If he is God, he would already know. He would not be walking to get there, either. Abraham pleads with this person to spare Sodom, indicating that this is God, a being who has the power of destruction over mortals. Note that there are three men being entertained by Abraham, and the one he calls the Lord states that he is going to physically visit the city to see for himself the extent of the wickedness, yet in chapter 19, only two men appear to Lot.

      Genesis 18:2 “And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him . . .”

      Genesis 19:1 “And there came two angels to Sodom at even . . .”

      What happened to the three that appeared in chapter 18? And in chapter 19, they are no longer referred to as men, but as angels. Three men appear to Abraham in his tent, one of them is identified as “the LORD,” the “LORD” says that he is going to go down to see if Sodom and Gomorrah are as wicked as He has heard, yet only two angels, not men, appear at the gates of Sodom. Where did the Lord go? Why didn’t He keep His word?

      These are called problematics, and I will gladly listen to your attempt to explain these away.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Excuse me please but don't you think it would be very important to tell what translation you would be getting your info from. Because lady Guinevere , was quoting from a bible translated from 1898 ,the dictionary stated that this bible has flaws of repeated words ,and only use presentence in verses when there is past history. This vital to understanding truth.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      The Eye Guy,

      Thank you for your friendly advice. I always appreciate anyone who is simply trying to help, and I especially love the ones who say that they are going to pray for me, even if they do so out of disgust with me, because I can always use extra prayers. I'm sure that the Lord will sort out what needs to be answered.

      I hope that you will take the time to study the current movement that is under way in Uganda. It is very real, it is the modern equivalent of the Nazi persecution of Jews in Germany, and it is happening now. The movement was instigated by "Christians" in America who found fertile soil for their bigotry. They preached anti-gay hate, they pushed the issue with Ugandans in powerful positions, and now, Uganda's parliament is trying to pass into law shocking penalties for gays in Uganda. If you know someone who is gay, and you do not turn them in, you will go to prison. If you are caught harboring gays, you will go to prison for life. And if you are gay, you will be put to death. Research the subject and tell me why that same bigotry cannot be made into law here. Even Rick Warren, the mega-church pastor whose son just committed suicide, Rick Warren was involved with this. The people in the U.S. who have funneled money to this movement in Uganda have their sights set on the U.S. as well, and all of this bigotry is blamed on the Bible. Thus, I recommend people study the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth," because, if we do not, then we are not preparing ourselves for the battle this anti-gay group is waging.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      Brother...how's that? Sorry. I do not know why I thought you were female. Won't happen again.

      You mention your thoughts that God has protected "His word" from being tainted, but actually, man taints everything man touches. The Bible is not some tablet that shows God took a pen and wrote on it. When you read the book from cover to cover, you see first of all that most of the Bible is man's attempt to explain God. Many of the books are chronologies. Some are historical accounts of Jewish history. Some are the writings of the prophets, some the poems of David, even one, the Song of Solomon, is a sex novel, one so racy that the Catholic church admonished against it being read at one point in time.

      The Bible is man's attempt to explain God. If it was dictated by God, then it would have been a complete book written at one time, and the manuscript would have been preserved miraculously for all time. Just the opposite has happened. We have no original writings from the actual times that are described in the Bible, and we have fragments in many cases where we find ancient copies. The long process of trying to find original copies of all the books that were ultimately canonized into the current form of the Bible still goes on to this day. This fact alone shows that God was not writing a book that He then protected. If that were the case, again, we would have this complete manuscript written on some material that never decays, and we would know by that alone that this particular manuscript was written by God. Further, the books that comprise the 66 books of the King James Version are not all of the so-called sacred scriptures. Many more books were written over the millennia, but when the current Bible was finally put together, many of these other books did not make the final cut. The Bible was not put together during the life of Jesus or the apostles, but centuries later under the reign of Emperor Constantine. Its form has changed many times, so, as for God not letting His word get tainted, while it is true that God is the same today and forever, the documents written by men are not.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      The Bible has errors in it, but that does not mean that I cannot use it as a guide to find more about what others saw. The dictionary is error free, but I am not going to use it to find God. You are confusing the issue. The Bible is a collection of manuscripts and letters, records of men trying to relate their experiences with their pursuits of knowing their Creator. The Bible is not a dictionary, and it has many flaws. Much like a Native American Indian trying to explain a meteor shower as the Great White Spirit speaking with flames from the skies, we have to apply more to what we read in the Bible than merely using a surface reading and thinking that we then know exactly what and who God is because of what the writers wrote. You simply cannot read the Bible at surface and know what it all means. You have to study the history of the writers, what was happening in their world at that time that caused them to write what they wrote. Study their language and know what they were saying in their language, making sure that nothing gets lost in the translation (it often does).

      When we read the writings of our Founding Fathers in America, they were relating to the king of England and all that the colonialists had thrown off. If we do not study the history of that time, we cannot truly and fully understand what they are addressing in their writings. How much more should we apply this proper methodology when studying the mysteries of the Bible?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Well I will agree that the dictionary could have errors but not Gods word Hebrew or Greek because I will give you an example of a secretary dictating her employers message ,the Boss tells the secretary what to say ,,this message could be so urgent that it cause the rise a nd fall of the company ,can she change the meaning of her bosses message ,No because it could cost him dearly,that is why she is a dictator of his words. None of these writers where born in the same time frame yet there message ,still is in harmony of the bibles theme, and even Daniel wrote and did not understand what he was writting because how many may write a story or a poem , we know what we are saying, Daniel did not because they were God's words, .And when you say Bible still be carefully ,if there is obvious errors ,that is plainly stated through a major Dictionary publisher then there may be a problem or misunderstanding of texted ,which could be misleading .I do respect our fore fathers ,but was'nt them who said the earth was flat. When the bible said it was round way before time.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      sojourner. You still refuse to read that book. So when you speak about it in total ignorance. anything you say about it is false. Have the courage of your convictions and read it.

      In most cases when a person is of a homosexual nature and tries to "convert" to being hetero- he or she is lying to self and to others. ual the other one usally is.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Each person here who is arguing about their religion is not responding to the book which is the subject of this hub.

      What are you afraid of? Read it!

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      I have read the articles here and think it is good publicity for the Author. I like his approach but I unfortunately do not believe that just because he has a provocative title which would appeal to some one of same sex orient it is okay to twist the word of God.

      God does not give man the right the condemn and Jesus showed this when he dealt with the Prostitute however please do not confuse two things. While Man has not right to condemn because we ourselves are sinners. (i.e Black has not right to say to Black that it is too black for they are as black as each other no matter what they feel. There can never be too little black or too much).

      God on the other hand does as he is the not human (i.e White can say to black, you are too black). God does condemn homosexuality in every way and there is no grey area about this. It is Black and White.

      God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. God said to everyone go out multiply and subdue the earth. Multiply speak about a relationship between man and woman. God said it is an abomination for a man to lie with a man as he would with a woman. Men and Men do not procreate, women and women do not procreate.

      The story of David and Jonathan must not be mis-understood. Bro-mance is a different thing from homosexuality. They loved each other as brothers should which is okay but they did not have sexual desire towards each other. What is this other talk about Daniel.

      I believe that you have been taken by the devil on this issue. It is important to note the seriousness of this issue when it comes to the word of God. You cannot say that so many different writers talking about the same issue were all mis-understood. When Jesus spoke about the church and his heavenly father he used the example of a groom and his bride (man and woman). In the songs of Solomon if was a man and woman. In Ecclesiastes it was woman and man spoken about.

      A man and a man is un-natural and in all of Gods laws it supports the laws of nature as he is the originator of the laws of nature (hence the reason why we do not accept evolution as it goes against the laws of nature)

      You wont be here if two men was the order of the day and vice versa, Man will then have to resort to play God by artificial insemination, stem cell growth and so many other things will be diverted towards procreation.

      I respect your right to an opinion but I do not agree to you leading people astray and making a profit for yourself. This is not an issue in Christianity. If a man and man want to be married let them do so if society allows it (though I strongly disagree with it) but let them not assume nor think it is okay to do so within the church nor is it an okay condition for God.

      GOD CONDEMNS HOMOSEXUALITY AS MUCH AS HE CONDEMNS FORNICATION, ADULTERY AND MURDER.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Kiss and tale, you are just blowing smoke. Hanavee explain errors pretty well in his explanation to Sojourner.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      You too can look up any scripture in any translation or any language that you want and you can also compare them with one another. Go for it: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Daniel, " I unfortunately do not believe that just because he has a provocative title which would appeal to some one of same sex orient it is okay to twist the word of God.". Are you Gay and if not why did you come here? You stated that they only people that would come here are gays. BTW I am NOT gay but I come to defend the right to live as one chooses and to keep my head out of the gutter that most gay bashers put themselves in. If you think it is all about sex, then you are sinning as much or even more so than any gay person alive.

      See most people who point fingers at others are judging them by their own standard and not that of a MERCIFUL being, or as someone around HP states--the spaghettie Monster In The Sky. If you take the time to actually read the Bible from start to finish, especially the OT you will begin to notice that there are 2 Gods and you will begin to also notice how different they are and when they came to be in that Bible as stories will unfold to you that religion has not permitted you to read.

      Religion also forbid you looking in other sources, like history and such and the banned books and they call it heresay if you do. WHY? Ask yourself why they would keep the truth from you at all costs...yes this was a wording in the Catholic Doctrine and it has stuck in all other denominations since the very first split. I am sure Hanavee can fill you in on all of that. You see he doesnt' think of sex all the time and who is doing whom. He can do other things much like you.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Here is another who is promoting the book this hub is about: https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/How-Jesus...

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      To All,

      When a person uses the completely unfounded argument against homosexuality by repeating the ignorance-filled poem "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve," they show immediately that they are not trained in Theology, but rather, they are parroting what some bigot has taught them, like name calling by children. Using this phrase is like waving a flag that says "I Am Theologically Stupid" on it. Here's why.

      There is no man in the Bible named Adam, and there is no woman in the Bible name Eve. Sound strange? The simple reason? Adam is the Hebrew word for "Man" or "Mankind," and Eve is not even in the Bible. The word used there in the Hebrew text is "Yitzah," or "Female," "Woman." These two words, adam and yitzah, mean only man and woman, and they refer to the supposed originators of life. In other words, which came first, the chicken or the egg? In the mind of the early Jews, their ancestry must have come from a man having sex with a woman to produce offspring, and since in their culture, only men had value, the male form must have been created by God in His own image, but females were just an appendage to be useful for man's needs. Thus, the female, well, she was not made in God's image, but was simply taken out of the man's body - a rib. Nice story. I'm sure the Lord will show us our true origins when we all get to the other side of life, but to think that ancient nomads who had no idea of biology or science were going to tell us that this is where we all come from, really? If somebody asked you where you came from, and you were female, would you say, "My father donated a rib, and the doctors made me from it."?

      No matter how you look at all of this, the name Steve simply had not been invented yet, and would not for thousands of years to come, so it is silly to even add this poetic joke to reasonable discussion. Adam and yitzah are not names, but categories. Steve, like any other name, is just a name. Adam and Yitzah are categories.

      Look at Genesis 3: 22-24 "And the Lord God (notice who they say is speaking here, because this is really important - "The Lord God." Keep this in mind.) said, Behold, the man (the word used here is "adam," "man" or "mankind.") is become as one of us, (Hmmm? Interesting! "one of us"? Who is "us"? I'd like to hear some answers from the class. Be careful when you answer.) to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

      Therefore the Lord God sent him ( sent "Adam" "man") forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

      So he drove out the man; (notice here the word is "adam," man, not George or Henry...simply "man," or "mankind.") and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life."

      So, it was not Steve and Adam and Eve and everybody else whose name we could ignorantly place in the narrative, but simply Man and Woman, or Males and Females, and that condition still exists as a biological system for producing offspring. It is not a comment from God on what people can do with their bodies sexually for pleasure, but merely the original writers trying to describe our origins...and not too well, I might add.

      When people try to use the ancient narrative from Genesis to make it seem as if this, therefore, proves that every relationship should be men and women coming together to reproduce, that would make us rabbits on a rabbit farm (What? Are we being produced for food?). Our sole function is not merely to reproduce. If that were the case, then God would have made no infertile women, no impotent men, and all children born would have lived. Such an argument that we were merely produced to have sex and make babies is about as ignorant as something out of a cave dweller's mentality. God made procreation as a tool for entrance into this plane of existence, and nothing more. People who use the argument that all sex is for procreation only, and that men and women are to make children, what of all the Christians who cannot have children? What of all the women who died giving birth, or the children who died at birth? What of all the Christian men who are impotent? What an ignorant statement to make that men and women are only brought into this world to make more babies. That also means that once you can no longer produce babies, you must cease from having sex. The statement that men and women are brought into this world only to make babies is like saying that God made us all rabbits in his fertility factory. That would make God a mad scientist.

      The truth of the matter is that we use sex for many things, and it is not just to make children. The Bible is full of examples, and for those who think that the idea of what is proper sex has always been the same, let's examine one example.

      In Genesis 38:15, Judah, from whom the tribe of Judah is descended, sees what he thinks is a common prostitute sitting along the roadside. It is actually his daughter-in-law, Tamar, in disguise. She is trying to get pregnant by her father-in-law for lineage purposes, but we won’t go into that here. The point is, in the Hebrew, he refers to her as a “zonah,” a common prostitute, not a "qadeshah" or temple prostitute. Christians today would not consider having sex with a prostitute at all, yet here is a leader among Israelites, a virtuous and upright man, “holy” before his god. And he has sex with Tamar, because he thinks she is a common prostitute ( a very common practice among Israelites of that time, a practice they thought nothing of).

      Ideas about sex have been evolving since the beginning of time, and no doubt will continue till the end of time. It would seem that at some point, we all start to understand that we should accept one another for the way we are.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      David and Jonathan were lovers.

      I Samuel 20:30-31:

      “Then Saul’s anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother’s nakedness?

      For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.”

      The words “Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman,” would be best translated “You son of a whore.” Saul is not calling Achinoam, Jonathan’s mother, a whore. Saul is calling Jonathan a derogatory term in order to show how low he thinks Jonathan is for his relationship with David, and he uses sexual terminology to denote the type of relationship Jonathan has with David. Saul is clearly categorizing Jonathan’s relationship with David. Had this been a totally different type of relationship, such as a political liaison with someone who was of an enemy tribe, Saul would have couched his terminology in ways that would have denoted such. They certainly would not have been sexual. In this culture, if you want to praise a man, speak of his birth as that of some great man. If you want to degrade him, speak of his birth as that of some low woman. One makes him a man, the other makes him a woman, the greatest debasement possible. The modern phrase “mama’s boy” does not convey the same depth of harsh degradation as the phrasing Saul is using here. Saul’s slurs offend with great shame.

      Saul goes on to use the words “nakedness” and “shame,” more words of a sexual connotation. “Nakedness,” ערוה “ervah,” is a term used in reference to sex, such as when someone’s “nakedness” has been “uncovered,” meaning that someone has exposed a man’s genitals for sex. When Saul says that he knows all about Jonathan’s “choice” of David, he is telling the whole court that he knows about their intimate relationship, and he degrades the relationship by saying that Jonathan’s choosing of David was to Jonathan’s “own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother’s nakedness.” Saul uses the word בשת “bosheth,” in Hebrew, which the King James translates as confusion, but is actually “shame.” Thus, it would read better as Jonathan’s “own shame and to the shame of thy mother’s nakedness.” In the time of Saul, a way to shame someone was to parade them naked in public. What Saul is saying is that Jonathan is parading himself publicly in a way that is like that of a woman who is searching for a male lover. He doesn’t compare Jonathan’s “shame” to a man’s “nakedness,” which would be political shame, as in when male captives were forced to march naked, but Saul, instead, compares Jonathan’s “shame” to the “shame” of a woman, especially to his mother. Women were only for raising heirs to the male lineage, such was the male chauvinism of that time. They were property, owned by the male, their nakedness shown only when time to arouse a sexual suitor, and Saul chose his words for maximum insult. Jonathan was not only being called a woman, but one who was acting like a whore, the ultimate insult to a male.

      Keep in mind that Saul was aware of the need for his male heir, Jonathan, to succeed him on the throne, and Saul was also aware of the ever-increasing popularity of David among the people. Saul felt that the relationship between his son and David was politically reckless. Jonathan, acting as the passive lover to David, would have easily given up his position as ruler to rule beside, or under, David. Saul knew this, and said, “For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom.” If it were not a possibility, Saul would not have added weight to that pronouncement by then saying, “Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.”

      Saul uses the word “chosen,” בחר “bachar,” to indicate that Jonathan has made a decision of commitment, like choosing a bride, a choice that is one of permanence and high value given by both partners with regard to each other. Jonathan has made a great decision, not a light one, and his decision was to place David in his heart and treat David as his primary love. I Samuel 20:17:

      “And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul.”

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      More on David and Jonathan

      I Samuel 20:17:

      “And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul.”

      How often have the words “One soul in two bodies,” been used to describe a great love? As time passed, Saul’s animosity toward David grew to such an extent, that David had to go into hiding, yet the love of Jonathan for David, and likewise, David’s love of Jonathan, never diminished. In spite of the necessity of David’s going into hiding, they still found ways to see each other. Eventually, there came a time when it was necessary for David to leave the country, since Saul was getting ever closer to having him assassinated. Jonathan and David arranged to meet alone one last time in a field outside of the city. This meeting is described in I Samuel 20:41-42:

      “And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of the place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.

      And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the LORD, saying, The LORD be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed forever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city.”

      “Until David exceeded,” these words cause a lot of supposed scholars a certain amount of unrest, because the literal meaning of this part of the sentence is that David got an erection. Whether or not he ejaculated is uncertain, because we are missing words here that would have completed the sentence and given us the complete picture. Apparently the scribe who transcribed the manuscript that survived felt it necessary to leave out those words, or he accidentally left them out and never caught his error, but many experts feel that certain words were, indeed, omitted that would have completed the thought. However it happened, we may never know. But, we do have the words “ad David higdil,” which translates “until David enlarged.” David and Jonathan knew that this was probably going to be the last time they would ever see each other, and while David, ever the politically correct man, bowed three times to show his respect for the high royal status of Jonathan, it was only moments before they were in each other’s arms. I most definitely don’t think that they kissed without embracing. David said that Jonathan’s love surpassed that of women. Therefore, it is impossible for me to see these two not being in each other’s arms as they enjoyed what they both felt would be the last time together. And, when people are in love, and they know they only get one more time together, given the opportunity, they go for it. They kissed, and they wept, and they enjoyed each other for an undetermined length of time, but, in the end of it, David “exceeded.” The key word here is actually “ad,” “until.” For those who like to translate that this phrase to mean that David wept longer than Jonathan, such an attempt is just pure nonsense. David was the alpha male in this relationship, and Jonathan was more the emotional, heartfelt pursuer in his role. If this was a matter of who wept the longest, then the vote would have gone to Jonathan. But the word “until” tells us that the kissing, and embracing, and weeping, and being close to each other one last time, all of this emotion and mutual enjoyment of the moment went on “until” something happened, that something being the climax of it all, and that was that David “got an erection and ejaculated.” The only word there is the word in Hebrew meaning “to make large,” or “to grow large.” I think that David enjoyed Jonathan “until” he was fulfilled sexually. Higdil is the Hiphil Causative of גדל gadal,” meaning “he caused to become large.” The best parallel for the correct translation of gadal here is to look at Ezekiel 16:26:

      “Thou hast committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbors, great of flesh (gidley basar) . . .”גִּדְלֵי בָשָׂר

      The English words “great of flesh” actually are the translators’ attempt to use a euphemism rather than say what it literally does in the Hebrew, and that is, “well hung.” “Gidley basar” is literally “enlarged penis,” or, “big of penis.” “Gidley” is a form of “gadal.” I have to chuckle when I read the sanitized version that is found in some Bibles, “. . . with your neighbors, the lustful Egyptians . . .” The NJB translation gets it right with the words “. . . your big-membered neighbors . . .” Now some people think that the writers of the Old Testament had the same prudishness about matters of a sexual nature as we do today, and that would be incorrect. True, there were words that bothered them, just as there are words that bother some people of religious backgrounds today, but the words that bothered them are not the words that bother us. For example, Staying with Ezekiel, let’s look at Ezekiel 23:20:

      “For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and who issue is like the issue of horses.”

      The words “flesh of asses” is literally the “penis (basar) of donkeys,” and the “issue of horses” is literally the “semen of the ejaculation of horses.” Ezekiel says that Israel lusted after Egyptians whose male sex organs were like those of donkeys and whose ejaculations were like those of stallions. (Note once again, we see the double insult, calling Israel not only a woman, but a whore as well. No man in Israel thought of his nation as anything but masculine, all male.) So, if Ezekiel had no problem with these seemingly lewd words, it is apparent that they weren’t among the words that had to be modified in his day, words like “temple prostitutes.” Still, why we only have the unfinished phrase, “until David enlarged,” is a problem argued even today by theologians on both sides of the fence.

      Nonetheless, “higdil” means that the passage is speaking of David’s penis and the fact that he got an erection from the excitement of their embracing. Men loving men was not considered abnormal in this time and place. Only Jonathan’s seeming passivity, in the eyes of Saul, was cause for concern, and that only for the obvious reasons we mentioned. Jonathan began this relationship with David in full view of Saul and with Saul’s blessing, so this male-to-male relationship was not out of the ordinary, thereby showing that homosexuality was part of the accepted and very fluid sexuality of the time.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      NO, NO, NO

      """"Jonathan began this relationship with David in full view of Saul... """"

      You are perverted, and you are injecting these scenes that are not really there. Middle eastern cultures may exhibit effeminate situations; but are NOT homosexual.

      I've pointed you to Jude 1:7 numerous times, and you've yet to acknowledge it. Scripture does not contradict itself. Homosexuality is a sin. You can't paint any other picture of it.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Question for you K12, just b4 I ask, I want to mention that I am straight so there is no assumptions about my preferrences. So my question for you is, if God hates homosexuality, why did He create them gay?

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      K12rswow, Here it is in full context and it doesn't say anything about homosexuals being a sin.. Jude 1

      Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

      1 Judas, of Jesus Christ a servant, and brother of James, to those sanctified in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ kept -- called,

      2 kindness to you, and peace, and love, be multiplied!

      3 Beloved, all diligence using to write to you concerning the common salvation, I had necessity to write to you, exhorting to agonize for the faith once delivered to the saints,

      4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord -- Jesus Christ -- denying,

      5 and to remind you I intend, you knowing once this, that the Lord, a people out of the land of Egypt having saved, again those who did not believe did destroy;

      6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,

      7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

      8 In like manner, nevertheless, those dreaming also the flesh indeed do defile, and lordship they put away, and dignities they speak evil of,

      9 yet Michael, the chief messenger, when, with the devil contending, he was disputing about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring up an evil-speaking judgment, but said, `The Lord rebuke thee!'

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      I don't know how you say that I have not addressed your question concerning Jude. Here is my response...for the second time.

      Jude 1:6-6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

      Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

      To understand what Jude is alluding to, we need to go back to Genesis 6:1-6:

      “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

      That the sons of GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all they chose.

      And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

      There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

      And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

      This reference in Genesis concerns the practice of angels (sons of God) having sex with the daughters of human beings (daughters of men) and producing offspring who were giants. Thus, Jude alludes to this in his statement, “And the angels which kept not the first estate, but left their own habitation . . .” Since Jude uses ancient Jewish history for his analogies, for example, the Exodus from Egypt, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the contention for the body of Moses by the archangel Michael, and references to the prophet Enoch and patriarch Cain, we know that Jude is basing his reference to “strange flesh” in the same period.

      When Jude uses the word translated fornication, he actually says “given over to prostitution” in the Greek, ἐκπορνεύσασαι “ekporneusasai,” from the root πόρνος “pornos,” “prostitution.” The common condemnation for Paul and Jude is temple prostitution, thus, when he uses the words “strange flesh,” σαρκὸς ἑτέρας “sarkos heteras,” one thing we should immediately notice is that he does not use the words “sarkos homos.” I say that flippantly, but if someone wants to play loose with linguistics, which so many bigots do, how about that one? Try explaining that one away. This set of words, “strange flesh,” has been used by so many bigots to claim that this is a phrase for homosexuality, when it is nothing of the sort.

      Jude’s point is to warn the Christians that some men have begun to teach them that it is okay to go back to the pagan practices which they forsook, and they will still be saved by the grace of Christ. Jude then shows examples of humans and angels, illustrating how it is possible to fall from grace. Sodom and Gomorrah was always used by Jews to illustrate a city and a population of people who were the antithesis of love, and were therefore destroyed by God for their wickedness. Never is the reason they are destroyed stated as men having homosexual relations. “Strange flesh” is actually linked with the referencing of cult prostitution and is a form of what we call “hendiadys,” two words, or phrases, joined with a conjunction to form greater emphasis of the one idea. An example of this would be the words in Genesis “. . . the earth was without form and void.” “Without form” is the same as “void,” but by using the two together, it adds greater emphasis to the condition. Notice the phrase is “. . . giving themselves over to prostitution and going after strange flesh . . .” I cannot make this any simpler. “Strange flesh” is merely the second half of a hendiadys, and its definition is made clear by the first phrase, “giving themselves over to prostitution.” Notice they are both actions, and they are both synonyms.

      I hope this helps,

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      Have you taken the time to read what I wrote regarding David and Jonathan? Because, if you had, you would see that I have inserted nothing, and that I have quoted directly from the Bible throughout. You said that I injected these scenes that are not really there? Then call Saul a liar, because I quoted him directly.

      When the truth does not back your prejudices, your prejudices do not make the truth go away. The Bible says what it says, and you cannot make it say what it does not, even if that offends what you were taught. I truly doubt that you even took the time to read my entire post on that subject. Not very scholarly.

      I read all of yours before responding. How about returning that favor?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Some might say that there are no homosexual relationships in the Bible. Actually, there are. One of the first mentions of something happening that was homosexual took place between Noah and his son, Ham. This passage is in Genesis 9:20-24:

      “And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

      And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

      And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

      And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.

      And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.”

      Now, of course there are going to be those who say that this is merely about Ham seeing his father naked. However, the euphemisms used by Israelites when writing in their sacred texts did not permit them to spell some things out literally. Thus, to “uncover one’s nakedness” was a euphemism meaning to have sex with that person. If Ham had merely viewed his father being naked, how would Noah have known “what his younger son had DONE unto him?” Having something DONE to you is a lot more telling here. If he had merely looked at his father, they would have had no problem and would not have needed a euphemism to describe what happened. Furthermore, you can’t wake up from a drunken stupor and know that somebody simply looked at you, but you can wake up and know that you have been had sexually.

      Let’s look at Habakkuk 2:15-16:

      “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

      Thou art filled with shame for glory; drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered . . .”

      Habbakuk is describing the act of getting someone drunk so that you can take sexual advantage of them. He knew what the words meant, and he makes it abundantly clear what it means to “uncover someone’s nakedness,” or to “look on someone’s nakedness.” As a jibe at the guilty person, Habbakuk tells them, “. . . drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered . . .” Translation—“Why don’t you get drunk and let somebody enjoy your penis!” Pretty harsh words, but very clear ones, as well.

      Noah got drunk, passed out, was completely naked, Ham saw him and took advantage—incest, and homosexual incest, at that. Noah decreed a curse on Ham after this, a curse that was to last forever, so judging from the conduct of Noah, my opinion is that Ham had sex with Noah. Now, lest anyone think that the curse was because of homosexuality on the part of Ham, that would be incorrect. What we know from the practices of male to male sex that existed in that part of the world and down through history, it would be most likely that Ham engaged in anally penetrating Noah, as this was the custom of sex with temple prostitutes during the temple sex rituals at that time, and it was taboo for any man, other than a male temple prostitute, to allow himself to be penetrated anally. Being the penetrator was not the taboo, being the penetrated one was. Thus, for Noah to wake up and find that he had essentially been made into a female was the ultimate degradation, and the person responsible for that act had to be cursed, even if it was his own son.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      When we hear people quoting passages from the New Testament in their effort to show that homosexuals are sinners, we have to take a closer look at those passages and ask ourselves a very important question: To whom was Paul speaking? Factually, Paul was speaking to the people of his day, and he was addressing his culture, his political government and his view of the known world as it existed then. Paul was addressing the there and then of his time, not the here and now of our time. Of course, some zealots like to say that Paul was speaking to us, people in the 21st Century, and that Paul was likewise speaking to people in every year before this, and to people in every year yet to come till the end of time. But, that would be an error, firstly, since Paul was not a prophet speaking prophetically, and secondly, because Paul did not believe the world would be around that long. Paul truly believed that Jesus Christ was going to return bodily to Earth in his lifetime:

      I Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

      Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

      Paul also believed that Jesus would return to Earth to set up a kingdom, that Jesus would rule over all, and His disciples would rule with Him as princes in this earthly kingdom. Paul believed that all mortal kings of the earth were going to be overthrown, and those who did not convert to this Christ-centered religion were going to be ruled by those who had.

      I Corinthians 15:24 “Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

      II Timothy 4:1 “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;” (quick = living)

      Paul believed that Jesus would return soon:

      Titus 2:13 “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”

      Paul believed that the end time was in his time. In no way did Paul believe that thousands of years would pass without the return of Jesus and His earthly kingdom, nor did he believe that man would continue to dominate the history of this planet. So Paul was not addressing people in the future. Paul was addressing living people in his day, and he was referring to things they understood, events to which they could relate, and all of his writings were for their benefit. Is that to say that there is nothing that Paul said that we should study? No. Paul’s lessons were then, and still are today, examples for us to study on conduct relevant to our desires to grow in the grace of Jesus Christ and His teachings. By studying the apostles, we get examples that we can apply to our daily lives, even thousands of years later, but, make no mistake about it, Paul was speaking to his contemporaries, he was not being prophetic, and we have to be careful how we apply what he said in his time to our time. Furthermore, we cannot even begin to fully understand what Paul meant in many of his writings without first going back in time and studying the conditions that existed at the time of Paul’s writings. Only then can we truly know what Paul was referring to.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Why are there so many interpretations? Because there are so many levels of education, and each person printing his or her interpretation is giving you the benefit (or lack thereof) of his or her limitations. Therefore, let us be very careful about carelessly racing ahead and saying that we “know” what any passage means, and that we “know” what it means simply because of what someone taught us. Fallacy and error are always “taught,” handed down from one generation to the next. They are not born inside of us. Someone had to teach us those errors, and if we are ever going to learn the truth, then we have to do three things:

      Admit that we need to know the truth

      Properly study to know the truth

      Accept the truth when we genuinely find it

      Closed minds are the tools of the Devil. Even the Bible tells us to learn the truth, because the truth will set us free. How can you follow God’s commandments to learn the truth if your mind is closed to learning? Being proud of ignorance is not a trait that Jesus would have us praise, so, if we are going to “truly” know what Paul is saying, then we have to go back to the time of Paul and study “his” world. We have to know what made Paul write, what motivated him, who was he writing to, and then we need to understand the world in which he lived so that we understand his references.

      Preachers don’t make truth. They either report it, or they distort it. God makes truth, and life all around us reports it. If your eyes and ears are truly open, truth will be no mystery to you.

      Many a man has stood in the pulpit acting as if he is plugged directly into God, when in reality, the source of his preaching is his own bigotries and prejudices.

      Some churches have a form of godliness, as the Bible says, but they deny the power thereof, for if they were truly tuned into God, they would follow the Scriptures to Galatians 5:14, in which we are told that we have fulfilled ALL the law if we do one thing, and that is love our neighbors as ourselves. How can anyone, who brings pain and suffering to so many, call themselves followers of Christ and children of God? Refusing to consider their wrongs, refusing to listen to proper interpretation of the Scriptures, refusing to let go of their tradition of anti-gay bigotries and prejudices merely because they have found comfort in holding on to their wrong thinking, all of this has made most churches nothing more than private clubs for self-centered, arrogant, thoughtless and hurtful people. If anything is an abomination to God, this is.

      The description of what a true church is goes right back to Galatians 5:14. If the members of that church cause people to love their neighbors as they love themselves, then that church is true. I do not mean those who love their fellow members because they are clones of each other. The Bible does not list any exclusions in that verse. It does not say love your neighbors as yourself as long as they are not Black, or Jewish, or Gay. In fact, we find many instances in the Bible where Jesus was condemned by the “church members” for keeping company with “sinners,” those who lived outside of the ideals of the religious elite. Often, some of those very sinners are closer to God than many of the “self-righteous.” Holding on to unfounded bigotry that brings suffering to other people whom God also created is almost the same sin for which Sodom was supposedly punished—lack of compassion for other human beings.

      Is there a greater sin than to willfully choose to be ignorant? Yes. When that willful ignorance causes harm to others.

      God did not make this planet a private club for heterosexuals. For whatever His divine reason, He made us all, and He made each of us in a variety of sexual orientations that range from completely homosexual to completely heterosexual, with variations within those two extremes. We all fall somewhere in the arch of that great pendulum swing, and all of us have value in the eyes of God.

      If proper Theology teaches that Christ delivered us from the laws of the Old Testament, then why go back to the Old Testament in search of ways to seemingly bolster an anti-homosexual argument? Because, without knowing what Leviticus 18:22 really says, the temptation is all too great to use something that seems to say exactly what those who love their prejudices want it to say—that homosexuals are living contrary to God’s laws and are, therefore, cursed.

      Of course, this statement, that “homosexuals are living contrary to God’s laws and are, therefore, cursed” raises immediate problems. If this were true, and it is absolutely not, it would mean that homosexuals are cursed from birth, because they are born homosexual. This would mean that God predestined certain people for eternal damnation. What kind of merciful God would that be?Majorly flawed, that’s what. It would mean that an omnipotent God was creating human beings with no power to earn His love. It would mean that God is cruel and enjoys the sorrow derived from torturing His creation. And thinking about the great theological ramifications of such thought, that then causes some of these ignorant “theologians” to change course and say that gays are not born homosexual, they “choose” to be homosexual. This thinking would let those theologians off the hook, because now it isn’t God’s fault, it’s the homosexual’s fault.

      We now know that this flies in the face of scientific knowledge, let alone the knowledge that every gay person on this planet knows as fact, that being gay is not a choice, just as no heterosexual ever made the choice one day to become heterosexual. Any heterosexual is going to tell you that he, or she, always remembers being the current sexual orientation that they find themselves to be. If you want to see a funny face, ask a heterosexual, “When did you choose to leave homosexuality and become a heterosexual?” They will think you have lost your mind, yet those very same heterosexuals who suggest that homosexuals were once heterosexual, and that at some point, these heterosexuals decided to live as homosexuals, do not see the stupidity in what they are suggesting, i.e., that all gays chose to be homosexual. They further add insult to injury by saying that being gay is a “lifestyle,” a casual choice. A lifestyle is a choice, but sexual orientation is a genetic trait just like the color of one’s eyes, or even the color of one’s skin. Asking someone why they chose to become homosexual is like asking why did they choose to become blue-eyed, or blond, or White. Why is it that an answer that is as plain as the nose on their face can be so difficult to accept for some people? God made the vast variety of human beings for His pleasure, and we need to honor God by honoring and respecting His creation.

      In my discussion here, I should point out that I am discussing those people who are born homosexual. There are those of both sexual extremes who have “experimented,” and there are even true bisexuals, but, when I refer to homosexuals, I am referring to those who are completely incapable of feeling any sexual attraction for someone of the opposite sex. I further want to say that all sexuality is a gift of God. Wherever you find yourself on that great pendulum of sexual identity, you are an individual created by God who has been bestowed with a special thumbprint. No two are alike, so live that life that was designed for you, and respect the right of others to live the life that God designed for them. Nowhere does God command us to lose our identities and become carbon copies of one another.

      Why is it wrong to quote Leviticus 18:22? First and foremost, because we don’t use any other verse from this entire book, not one, to set standards of conduct for modern living. Not one! Who cannot see the hypocrisy in such misappropriation of Scripture? People who love to quote this one verse cannot quote any other verse from this book . . . at all. Yet, like cheerleaders on a mission, they jump with enthusiasm to show that they “know” their Bible, because they “know” a verse in the Old Testament that seems to prove as correct their anti-homosexual prejudices. “Memorizing” a vers

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      “Memorizing” a verse is not “knowing” that verse. A parrot can do the same thing. And if all you want to do is quote the Bible, that makes you no more holy or spiritual than the Devil. He can not only quote the entire Bible in every language it was ever written in, he knows what it really means, because he was alive when it was written. If you do not study to understand the truth of what any scripture actually means, then the Devil has you beat. He genuinely knows what the word “know” means, and he knows the Bible. When the Devil tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness, he quoted Scripture and used it well, so if you want to say that you know the Bible, you had better set higher standards than just being able to quote it.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      In my view„ all those individuals who say their god hates any one else are limiting the nature of the god of their imagination. Who in their right mind would worship such a thing?

      Daniel, please show your self to be the christian you claim to be, not a self-proclaimed judge in ignorance.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      I'm so glad that the only one who speaks for God is God.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      So much belief, such heated assertion/argument, fear of being wrong, being made to look silly, all as I see it, point to our gregarious nature as the human species.

      In order to find a solution to this fear and to overcome it, each of us needs to withdraw from the crowd, face the "My Stuff," and meditate deeply on it.

      Praying aloud in the company of others will occomplish nothing of worth.

      It must be a couragious, lone journey such as I am reading about in that book. Only then can you know that god in your heart.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      There is a movie titled "The Bible Tells Me So," which I saw several years ago, and I was especially moved by the true story of a woman who was a Fundamentalist Christian. She had persecuted her daughter for all of her daughter's life, because her daughter was lesbian. Her daughter tried to change and couldn't, but eventually, with all of the constant hate shown by her mother, was overcome with it all, and at the age of 35 years old, she hung herself. The mother talks to so many people in this movie about her blind acceptance of the bigotry that she was taught, and she reads the letters to us that her daughter wrote over the years trying to get her mother to love her. The poor girl never had her mother's love, all because of taught prejudice and ignorance, and now, the mother realizes, all too late, what part she played in her daughter's death. She is shown visiting her daughter's grave, and I will never forget that wrenching scene of this mother crying at the graveside. She now works to spread the truth that God loves us all. Even though she was too late learning the truth to save her daughter, there are others who still need this help. We have had too much sorrow and death in the gay community for far too long. Thus, I hope people who read the recommended book will spread the word.

      Brian

      A Child of God

      P.S. Yes, I agree with your assessment.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Those who judge, I wrote a poem a while ago about that. I am going to post it here because it isn't posted anywhere else right now and I would love to share it with you all: The Person Sitting Beside You - A Poem

      The Person Sitting Beside You

      Who the person sitting beside you

      when one place to another you must move

      on a subway or bus or in a grocery store

      Someone comes and sits close to you like other times before

      You put up your protective shell

      Like all other times as well

      What are the deep feelings you feel

      Take time right now and your shell you should peal

      To see just how those others to you relate

      Do they make you feel like some kind of bate

      Or is it you who does the judging

      without you doing the budging

      You think of all the things you've been taught and you start to assume

      are they single, muslim, jewish, or gay and other things that may not be true

      have we become to think and to look at another

      like they were some kind of ugly creature or other

      by only seeing their outside looks

      like what you have been told by that religious book

      Would you be a fellow human

      and extend your hand

      with a smile just for a litle while or a few seconds

      Come on now your soul becons.

      Do you really know if that other person,

      is a friend or foe or just a human version,

      of an Angel that you are unaware,

      put in your path to make you more aware

      Of the things you think and what you do,

      To the Person sitting *inside* of you.

    • FSlovenec profile image

      Frank Slovenec 4 years ago from San Francisco, CA

      I can justify anything I want in any way I want too. First the Bible, as has been said in comments here condemns this sin, second the Bible condemns sex outside of marriage, God defined marriage as being between a man and a women. Pretty simple. I live in San Francisco and all people are welcome to our Christian church.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      The bible does not condemn anything you just wrote. It is the church system of legalists that condemns

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      People can't read their own Bibles. They are too durned lazy. They rather be told what it says and they are being told lies. It's that simple!!

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      I knew you would do this:

      k12rswow,

      """"I don't know how you say that I have not addressed your question concerning Jude.""""

      I was focusing on the SINS of Sodom, but you didn't go there.

    • profile image

      Mklow1 4 years ago

      Hanavee,

      Interesting read, but I will have to respectfully disagree. It is unfortunate that many people such as Mr. Gray realize that the Bible is open to interpretation and can be easily manipulated, so they use that to mislead others for their own gain. I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Mklow1, that conflict you experience, trying to reconcile your primary desire to make money in business with preaching what you think people like to hear..........there must be lots of money coming in from the talk stuff, but do you ever stop to consider your own conscience?

      Preaching about the devil ad infinitum will never bring the lowliest of your "flock" to experience a full and joyful life, because all you are doing is screwing them by the balls. Not something your Jesus would have approved, do you think?

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Sorry that last comment should be to Fslovenic, not Mklow1. My point in a nutshell is that money and preaching can make more money

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      The apostle Paul realized after seeking the path led by Jesus Christ that all of his prior religious teachings were about following the laws of men, and that the real truth he sought was found in simply being set free from all of these legalities by Jesus Christ.

      Philippians 3:4-9, we read:

      “Though I might also have confidence in the flesh, If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

      Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

      Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

      But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

      Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count but dung, that I may win Christ,

      And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.”

      Note the words of Paul "...not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law..." Paul clearly states that the religious laws that he had been taught were not what Jesus taught.

      Here is an example of what Jesus showed when it came to observing the "commandments of men" with regard to fellow human beings that were considered abominable by fellow Jews.

      In John 4:9, Jesus has come to the well of Jacob in the city of Sychar, which was in Samaria, and he asks for a drink of water from a Samaritan woman who is about to fill her water pot. The woman replies, “How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.”

      Jesus, thereupon, not only drank water from her vessel, rendering himself unclean by the laws of the Pharisees, he preached to the Samaritans whom she brought back to the well to meet Jesus. Verses 39 and 40 tell us that many of the Samaritans believed on Jesus that day, and they pleaded with Him to stay with them. Jesus stayed there with the “unclean” Samaritans for two days before continuing on. What, then, does this tell us about observing laws of “unclean” and “clean?” Of observing the man-made laws of separation by sexual orientation? It is very plain. Jesus came to ALL!

      In Mark 7:7, Jesus was being pestered by the Pharisees regarding the fact that his disciples were eating bread without observing the religious ritual of cleansing their hands first, and he said of them,

      “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

      There are indeed doctrines that are nothing more than the commandments of men. Jesus, Himself, said it, now we should remember this vital and important point.

      We read in Matthew 19:12 where Jesus is speaking:

      “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake.”

      Jesus knew of homosexuals, because here He speaks of the known class of homosexuals who had been made so either from birth, as in no desire for women, or by castration, a very common practice in that time in history. And Jesus does NOT condemn them...ever.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Lady Guinevere,

      Beautiful and very spiritual poem!

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      FSlovenec,

      Anyone can make the Bible say anything they want it to, but, fortunately, it only says one thing. Finding what that one thing is, however, is not impossible, and the more educated we are to proper exegesis, such as studying the language in which each passage was originally written, the more we can translate properly. There is no excuse for incorrectly translating the Bible, yet such is quite common, unfortunately.

      Thus, the Bible's admonition to "Study to shew thyself approved..."

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      How can you not read what I wrote and think that I have not addressed what Jude was saying? Jude's letter was not focused on JUST Sodom and Gomorrah, and when he alludes to Sodom and Gomorrah, he merely repeats the admonition of the prophet Ezekiel, which was the same reference used by Jesus, that Sodom was known for its extreme inhospitable nature when that nature should have been sharing and love. Sodom was totally compassionless to such a degree as to be rendered an abomination to God.

      In Ezekiel 16:49 & 50, the sins of Sodom are listed:

      “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and an abundance of idleness, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before me: therefore, I took them away.”

      Are you going to add words to the Bible? Are you going to contradict Ezekiel? Even Jesus quoted Ezekiel, so what are you reading into the official enunciation?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Mklow1,

      The Bible is open to some interpretation of intent, but when translating the words, it is open to none. Proper translation does not permit us to insert our own prejudices, and when I see such, I discard the material as contaminated and useless. I am a degreed linguist, so I know better than to think that we cannot translate properly. I also know that there are "slanted" translations done everyday. Such is the evil nature of man, but it, nonetheless, does not mean that we cannot translate correctly. The book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality" deals in strict literal translations. Before you condemn a translation, you had better be able to speak the language.

      I find it tired and worn out when people blithely make the statement that people who show a translation that causes bigotry to be checked are therefore guilty of manipulation. Very unscholarly comment. Either you know what the correct translation is, by virtue of your linguistic scholarliness, or you show ignorance when you label something as error when you have no idea what the original language says in the first place. Such a statement is a cop out, a lazy cop out. If you don't like the truth, to just say that somebody has manipulated the outcome is complicity with wrong doing. Convenient excuse, but still false.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Maybe I should just hand you a crank, since you love twisting scripture.

      You said:

      """"that Sodom was known for its extreme inhospitable nature """""

      Was your bible written in San Francisco, and edited in Province Town?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      I am quoting Ezekiel and Jesus. Who are you quoting? Are you accusing Ezekiel and Jesus of "twisting scripture"? I am really waiting for you to show me your interpretation, and I can't wait to see your facts.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Ezekiel 16:49 is in addition to what Sodom was all about. But, this is a good example of your approach. You know full well what we are talking about here. Yet, you use Ezekiel 16 to mis-direct where this debate is going. Where does the word "sodomy" come from? The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the two who were angels. Everybody knows this! You are pushing a homosexual agenda, some here even suggested you wrote this book your pushing. Doesn't matter. Homosexuality is NOT acceptable in the word of God; as well as many other types of sins.

      My prayer for you is that the Holy Spirit touch your heart.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      The citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah were not homosexual. Let’s get this point out there right at the very beginning, because nothing flies in the face of reality like trying to say that an entire population of a city was homosexual. How, then, did they reproduce?! Sometimes, people don’t even begin to analyze the absurdity of their prejudices. Once they do, they start trying to defend them by circumnavigation, as in, “Well, most of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah had started practicing homosexuality.” Of course, as we delve into fact, we will find that this, too, is absurd and false. Historically, even the term “homosexual,” did not exist at the time of Sodom and Gomorrah, since the word was not invented until 1869.

      Every time that I have heard a preacher use this story as the foundation of his sermon, it has been to preach against gays . . . every time! And this willful ignorance is no longer excusable. The story of Sodom is not one of sexual orientation. Let me repeat this for emphasis—the story of Sodom is not about, and has nothing to do with, sexual orientation. If any sermon should be preached based in the significance of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, it should be for the despicable level of inhospitable, greedy and self-serving nature, the total lack of compassion for other human beings, that had grown commonplace with the citizens of these cities. Nowhere in the Bible is Sodom and Gomorrah equated with homosexuality. In every instance that Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned, the iniquities described are everything BUT homosexuality. In Ezekiel 16:49 & 50, the sins of Sodom are listed:

      “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and an abundance of idleness, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before me: therefore, I took them away.”

      What this says is that Sodom and Gomorrah had plenty of food and tranquility, yet did nothing for the poor and hungry. The magnitude of their cruel haughtiness was such that they became an abomination to God. To further stress the point that the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were not homosexuality, look at the first chapter of Isaiah in which Judah is compared with Sodom and Gomorrah, and again, not once is sex, or sexual orientation, even remotely part of the discussion. The sin most railed against when referring to these two cities is inhospitality. In Luke 10:12, Jesus, Himself, refers to Sodom when He tells his disciples to go out and preach the Word in various places, and referring to the inhospitality for which He knew Sodom to be equated, He warned those cities that did not show hospitality to His disciples, “. . . that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Nowhere in the Bible are Sodom and Gomorrah equated with homosexuality, and in every instance where these cities are mentioned, the Bible does not rail against homosexuals, nor does it even mention gay people at all. In every instance, the passages deal with the sins of Sodom that are apparent once anyone reads the narrative in Genesis with a clear mind. These cities had grown wickedly inhospitable and cruel to fellow human beings. The love of God was not in them. The answer to their salvation is taught in Galatians 5:14, wherein we are told that all of God’s laws are fulfilled when we love our neighbors as ourselves.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      In actuality, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, as told in Genesis, is an embellished, pro-Israelite story recounted by Jewish people in ancient times to make it appear that God favored Jews over all others. When Sodom was destroyed, who were the only ones who supposedly made it out of the destruction? Jews. Lot, being Jewish, was delivered from Sodom before the destruction, because he was a righteous Jew. Everyone else living there was pagan, and they were, therefore, all wiped out by the god of the Israelites. Am I over-simplifying? Not really. And this mythical misrepresentation of an actual historical event has gone uncorrected for centuries, used by every homophobic Church leader to attack gays for several hundred years now. Few have stepped forward to put the picture into correct focus. Most heterosexuals do not feel the sting of anti-gay bigotry and are, therefore, unmoved to right the injustices that evolve from the incorrect translation of this story. At the same time, gays who know the truth are seen as having an ulterior motive and are thought to be merely twisting the story for their advantage. But, centuries of misinterpretation are put to the task with the light of recent archaeological discoveries, and the evidence shows the Jewish version of this story to be exaggerated.

      Before I share the archaeological evidence and conclusions, let’s look at just the text of the story itself.

      When reading the account in Genesis, it is important to know several things in order to properly understand. First, there were several cities in the Valley of Siddim—Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Zoar. These cities are mentioned in Genesis 14:2 & 3, which also names the respective kings of the first four with these words:

      “That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar. All these were joined together in the vale of Siddim, which is the salt sea.”

      The city of Bela was renamed Zoar after the destruction—Genesis 19:22. The first important note is that Sodom was only one of several small cities in this valley of Siddim, yet all of these communities, with the exception of Zoar, were destroyed when the great cataclysm occurred. Were these other cities guilty by association? Did they bear the burden of being judged just as sinful as Sodom? Why were they destroyed? And why is their destruction not mentioned?

      Nonetheless, the story that leads up to the destruction takes place in the city of Sodom. My point is that this information should make educated readers sit up and take notice. In Genesis 19:13, the angels tell Lot, “For we will destroy this place . . .” meaning the city of Sodom, and lest anyone not be certain that this refers to the city of Sodom, the very next verse clarifies it further. Lot says to his family:

      “Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city.”

      So, because Lot lived in Sodom, this becomes the only city of importance to the ancient Jewish writers relating this event. Of little or no importance to them is the fact that other cities existed in the valley of Siddim, and that they were all affected by what transpired in that region around 2350 B.C.

      Another interesting note, as you will later realize, is that the angels warn Lot and his family not to stay in the valley, but to head into the mountains—Genesis 19:17

      “. . . neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.”

      The reason that I point this out here is that archaeological evidence shows that volcanic and seismic activity was what drove all of the inhabitants of the valley of Siddim to move to higher ground. More on this later. But this shows that those who recounted the tale of the Jewish patriarch, Lot, were at least somewhat correct in this portion of the story. The valley of Siddim was becoming unstable due to the evolving cataclysm, however, the truth of the matter is that Lot and his family were not the only ones to escape this event of Nature.

      The story that evolves in Genesis is basically that Lot was living in a wicked city, Sodom, and that God decided to destroy it. God sent two angels to tell Lot that he and his family were to be spared, and that they were there to rescue Lot and his family before the destruction began. Fundamentalists like to tell us that the city was destroyed for its homosexuality, but only by literally torturing the Scriptures can one come to this conclusion. To understand the true meaning of the story, it is not even necessary to go into the present day and view the archaeological evidence that shows what really happened there. While the archaeological evidence adds a great deal to disproving the Fundamentalist interpretation of the events surrounding the destruction of these cities, the biblical rendition of the events leading up to the destruction is sufficient for what I want to point out, and that is that Sodom, whether you believe God destroyed it for its sinfulness, or whether you believe that Sodom was merely a victim of Nature, was not destroyed for homosexuality.

      This story is not about homosexuality, and it says nothing that could be used to condemn gay people. It is the constant misinterpretation of this story, done deliberately, that is one of the greatest sins in humanity, and any church that abuses this story to reinforce bigotries against gays shames Christianity. Such churches have a form of godliness, as the Bible says, but they deny the power thereof, for if they were truly tuned into God, they would follow the Scriptures to Galatians 5:14, in which we are told that we have fulfilled ALL the law if we do one thing, and that is love our neighbors as ourselves.

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      How can anyone, who brings pain and suffering to so many, call themselves followers of Christ and children of God? Refusing to consider their wrongs, refusing to listen to proper interpretation of the Scriptures, refusing to let go of their tradition of anti-gay bigotries and prejudices merely because they have found comfort in holding on to their wrong thinking, all of this has made most churches nothing more than private clubs for self-centered, arrogant, thoughtless and hurtful people. If anything is an abomination to God, this is.

      The description of what a true church is goes right back to Galatians 5:14. If the members of that church cause people to love their neighbors as they love themselves, then that church is true. I do not mean those who love their fellow members because they are clones of each other. The Bible does not list any exclusions in that verse. It does not say love your neighbors as yourself as long as they are not Black, or Jewish, or Gay. In fact, we find many instances in the Bible where Jesus was condemned by the “church members” for keeping company with “sinners,” those who lived outside of the ideals of the religious elite. Often, some of those very sinners are closer to God than many of the “self-righteous.” Holding on to unfounded bigotry that brings suffering to other people whom God also created is almost the same sin for which Sodom was supposedly punished—lack of compassion for other human beings.

      If you read the account in Genesis, it is important to know some of the customs of that region at that time in history. The Valley of Siddim, wherein lay the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, was surrounded by the most inhospitable desert one could imagine. Genesis 14:10 alludes to just some of the naturally occurring, treacherous conditions that existed there—

      “And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits . . .”

      Geologically, this was one of the most unforgiving areas to inhabit because, not only was it desert, but it was full of sulfur pits, salt waters, gas pockets that could erupt and catch fire, and tectonic activity that could literally liquefy the ground a person stood upon, not to mention the numerous earthquakes. Even in recent times, while drilling a water well in the same area, a gas blowout erupted, and it was only a miracle that the gas did not ignite. In ancient times, tectonic activity would easily have released pockets of gas that resulted in fires and great pillars of smoke. These hellish conditions made it unsafe to travel carelessly by day, and no one in his right mind traveled this region by night. For these reasons, one custom evolved into a moral requirement that seemed only natural: if someone came to your city at sunset, and if you were the first one to see them, it became your responsibility to give them shelter from the desert for the night. So, whether this was a person you knew, or someone from an enemy tribe, come sunset, if he presented himself at the gates to your oasis, you provided for him. This meant food and shelter, as well as water to wash the salty, sulfurous, desert dust from his feet. To turn someone away at this hour of the day would be unthinkable! To do so would be to condemn someone to possible death. What if one of your loved ones were out in the desert and had to stop at one of the other cities for the night? Would you want them turned away? No. And so it was, that everyone was expected to observe this custom of reciprocal hospitality.

      Now read the passage, and if you read it slowly and let this sink in, you will notice several things right away. One is the time of day that this story begins—at the setting of the sun.

      Genesis 19:1 “And there came two angels to Sodom at even . . .”

      The two visitors, considered angels, arrive at the city of Sodom at sunset. And who is sitting in the gate leading into the city? Lot.

      “. . . and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom . . .”

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      “Sitting in the gate” is a phrase similar to a bridge tender, someone who minds the city gate. Also, by custom, since he is the first one to lay eyes on the strangers advancing to the city, he must extend the welcome, and if they do not have lodging with relatives or friends there, thus being strangers at the mercy of the desert, he must make arrangements for their safety for the night. I have never heard a single preacher even allude to knowledge of this custom. They are often so hell bent on getting to the really important part of the story, the part where gays are the reason Sodom was destroyed, that most preachers speed past this portion of the story. Who needs to know cultural customs at the time of this event? After all, isn’t this only about gays? If people would just have an original thought, stop and think for themselves, read this passage and stop reciting the pre-digested and bigoted dogma that has been handed down from one believer to the next, they would find that this story is exactly what I am telling you it is: an account of an actual event in history that was embellished by Jewish authors later as a morality lesson. Without studying about the harshness of life in that desert region and the risk of death to anyone trying to travel in that desert by night, the term inhospitable seems trivial, but it is precisely that which is the theme at the foundation of this story, and those who would preach without adequate study are indeed the fulfillment of the biblical verse that calls them the “blind leading the blind.”

      Reading further, we find that once Lot took the men to his house, word went around the city that Lot had strangers in his home, and the men of the city showed their wickedness. Instead of showing the required hospitality to someone stranded in the desert at night, they wanted to do the exact opposite. They wanted to so humiliate these visitors that they would never dare set foot in Sodom again. “How odd!”, we might wonder. Why would people be so cruel? (We might ask that of people today who are anti-gay. Where did such intolerance come from? Certainly not from God.) In light of further study, we find that the men of Sodom wanted these strangers to take back a warning to the enemies of Sodom, to let the known world hear that the men of Sodom were fierce warriors, and woe be to the stranger who tried to attack them ever again. The men of Sodom were intent on building a reputation that traveled far and wide, one that would help prevent their ever being attacked and conquered again.

      In Genesis 14, the Bible tells us that the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as the other cities in the valley, had been taken captive and held in slavery until Lot’s uncle, Abraham, came and rescued them. So, what had begun as a defensive attitude had apparently degenerated into a custom of automatic and extreme cruelty, and the men of Sodom were going to make an example of these non-residents. Surrounding Lot’s house, they demanded that Lot send the visitors out to them.

      The word used here is to “know” them, send them out “so that we may know them,” and this has been interpreted by some to mean, “Send these men out so that we may have sex with them.” From this cultural misinterpretation, people have built centuries of anti-gay prejudice and hatred. It is here that all preachers who preach against gays go into long and torturous efforts to paint these men of Sodom as homosexuals who were out to have sexual pleasure with the angels who are visiting Lot’s house. The biblical account says that the entire male population surrounded Lot’s house, to the very last man and boy in the city. Realize, of course, that none of these cities had a very large population. A conservative estimate of the entire population of the city, male and female, would be less than one thousand people. Bear in mind here that Abraham rescued all of the captive inhabitants of these five cities by using only 318 men:

      Genesis 14:14 “And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.”

      Nonetheless, never in the history of mankind has there ever been a city that was composed entirely of homosexuals. It would be biologically impossible to maintain such a city for long, since they would die off from lack of reproduction. Just look at the Shakers, the religious sect that forbade sex of any means. Their membership was made up of converts and adopted orphans, but eventually, since they did not reproduce, they became extinct. And if Sodom was destroyed for being homosexual, then what was the sin of Gomorrah? Or the other cities of the Valley of Siddim? Why did they go under when Sodom sank? Sodom was not a homosexual city. It was heterosexual.

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      There are some very interesting points in this story, ones that most preachers gloss over, or mumble, or don’t read at all. My favorite? That Lot, in an effort to quell the mob, offers them his two virgin daughters for a night of debauchery. It does not take a scholar to translate what Lot says.

      Genesis 19:8 “Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes; only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.”

      Here we see the phrase “to know” again, a phrase that often is used to mean “sexual relations.” The men said that they wanted “to know” the strangers, and Lot offered the men the opportunity “to know” his daughters, instead. Interesting! A lot of getting to know each other.

      Lot clearly tells the men that his two daughters are virgins, and he then invites the men to take these two daughters and use them in any way that they want for the entire evening . . . just don’t bring any harm to the two visitors who are his guests. What an example for a patriarch! Telling neighbors to have sex with his two young daughters! I have listened as preachers tried to explain away this moral problem by saying that Lot was merely bluffing, trying to shame the homosexuals. What a stretch! The truth of the matter is that Lot was indeed offering his two virgin daughters for the sexual pleasure and entertainment of the men of the city. Since women were not considered the equals of men at that time and in that culture, Lot’s offer was not unusual. Remember, too, that Lot is considered righteous, so much so that he is saved from the destruction. Something to think about, isn’t it? If we are supposed to follow his example as a model for morality in our present time in history, I know a lot of Christians who would be upset with any person who would suggest borrowing their daughters for the evening.

      One cannot wiggle out of this contradiction. Either some religious beliefs change with time, or nothing changes with time. Understanding cultural values relevant to a particular time in history is important if one is going to properly translate the Bible, for, as simple as this sounds, the Bible was not written in our present age. It does not reflect our current society, but the societies of various ages down through history. Each story was written in the eyes of those who lived in another time and another culture. And if what Lot did with regard to offering his daughters is no longer correct for our time and in our eyes, then we need to evaluate what beliefs we hold, and sort them according to teachings, cultural ethics, doctrines and absolutes. And as for the question of how to treat gay people, one need only go to the teachings of Christ and stop going back to seemingly convenient passages in the Old Testament. Christ made the Old Testament past tense, His sacrifice changing all, and not once does Christ speak against homosexuals. Moreover, in John 3:16, ALL people can take comfort in His promise:

      “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

      That “whosoever” means everybody—you, me, heterosexual, homosexual . . . everyone. God made us all, God loves us all. He does not hate His creation. Of course, I am well aware of those who then say that, “Well, yes, anyone can be saved, but once saved, a homosexual asks God to cleanse him of this sin.” Read my book to the end, then see if you can still say that. Homosexuality is no more a sin than any other of the various sexualities that God created and placed in human beings. God did the same for animals in the world of nature, so science is with those who are willing to take the time to properly study.

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      So, what did the men of Sodom who had gathered at Lot’s door want to do with the two visitors who were Lot’s guests? This question is at the heart of many a debate on this subject, and for most, the argument hinges on the correct interpretation of the word “know.” In the original text, the word in Hebrew is ידע ” yada,” which simply means “to know.” Whether this can be interpreted to mean “to have sex with someone” in all instances is an ongoing debate, but one thing is for certain—the men of the city were obviously intending to mistreat the visitors, because the person closest to knowing what this word meant in that time and era took it to mean something harmful. Lot’s actions to protect his visitor guests show that the men of this city were a lot like the men of the old wild west in America, possibly worse. Further proof that they intended to do the visitors harm is shown by the fact that the men of Sodom quickly lost patience with Lot and told him to get out of the way, they were coming in. According to the story, the angels rescued Lot from the angry mob by pulling him inside the house, at which point they then struck the mob blind. One thing is for sure—the word “to know” cannot mean one thing for what the men of Sodom were going to do to the angels, and completely something else when it came to the two virgin daughters of Lot. It is apparent that the intention of the men who gathered at Lot’s house was to sexually humiliate the two angels, a barbaric tactic that is still used in the Middle East today. We need only look at the incredible number of cases of heterosexual males raping male prisoners during the Bosnian war to permanently humiliate them, cases that were brought before the War Crimes Tribunal, and we see exactly what was going on in the story of Sodom on the night in question.

      Let’s look at some obvious problems with the story as recounted by ancient Jews. It actually begins in Genesis 18, wherein Abraham, Lot’s uncle, sees three men approaching his tent in the middle of the day. The story relates that Abraham called one of these men “Lord,” as in the same term for Lord used whenever they refer to the Lord their God, יהוה “adonai.” Now, if this is the same being who is God, then how is it that Abraham prepares a great welcome dinner for the three men, and they eat it like mere mortals? He offers them the customary foot washing common to desert dwellers. Why would God need to wash His feet? From walking in the desert? Further, the one identified as Lord says that he needs to go down to see Sodom in person to see if what he hears about its wickedness is true. If he is God, he would already know. He would not be walking to get there, either. Abraham pleads with this person to spare Sodom, indicating that this is God, a being who has the power of destruction over mortals. Note that there are three men being entertained by Abraham, and the one he calls the Lord states that he is going to physically visit the city to see for himself the extent of the wickedness, yet in chapter 19, only two men appear to Lot.

      Genesis 18:2 “And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him . . .”

      Genesis 19:1 “And there came two angels to Sodom at even . . .”

      What happened to the three that appeared in chapter 18? And in chapter 19, they are no longer referred to as men, but as angels. Three men appear to Abraham in his tent, one of them is identified as “the LORD,” the “LORD” says that he is going to go down to see if Sodom and Gomorrah are as wicked as He has heard, yet only two angels, not men, appear at the gates of Sodom. Where did the Lord go? Why didn’t He keep His word? These are called problematics, and you can wrestle with them later.

      Going further into the story, these men originally told Lot that they were going to sleep in the open street in the middle of the city. Well, if they were sent to take Lot out of the city, then why did they not go straight to his house in the first place? Lot had to prevail upon them to spend the night in his home.

      Genesis 19:1-2 “And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

      And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servants house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.”

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      There are so many problems with this passage, yet preachers never preach on them, mainly because they are in such a blind rush to get to their favorite point, that of making this story seem to be God’s divine disgust with homosexuals, that they never, and I mean never, address the problems that exist right here. Problems like—Why did the angels not identify their purpose to Lot, the “chosen?” Why did they treat him as a stranger when they were sent there to save him? Why would they refuse the hospitality? More problems—When the mob rushed the house to attack the “angels,” and the “angels” struck the mob blind, if they had this kind of power, why did they only strike the mob blind? After all, the blindness was temporary, since the mob was able to find their way back to their individual homes for the night. And if these were indeed real angels, then why spend the night there in the first place? Did they need to rest? Also, being angels, they would have known what would have happened in advance, and they could have very simply appeared on Lot’s doorstep at the rising of the sun, issued orders to evacuate, and none of this soap opera would have happened. What is the point of going into the city and provoking a riot? And finally, when the temporary blindness wore off of the mob, why didn’t they come back for another round of mayhem?

      Still more problems—When the angels told Lot and his family to flee, they were ordered not to look back . . .

      Genesis 19:17 “And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.”

      Genesis 19:26 “But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

      Genesis 19:27-28 “And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:

      And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah . . .”

      . . . Lot’s wife did, and she was turned into a pillar of salt. Yet, in the same chapter, when Abraham looks toward the destruction, he is not turned into anything. Why not? Male chauvinism? Time limits? And when Lot is told to flee to the mountains, he begs to stay in the next city over from Sodom, Zoar, and the angels agree not to destroy Zoar. However, once there, Lot flees into the mountains, because he is now afraid of Zoar. The destruction was pretty fickle for something so damnable. Why was Zoar ever in the crosshairs in the first place? It was never accused of the sins of Sodom.

      As you can see when you read this story closely, there are many problems, and these problems should not be ignored. As I said from the beginning, people would rather hold on to their prejudices and bigotries, because it is a comfort zone. It requires nothing to maintain, or so it seems, but there is a cost for ignorance. People do suffer, and no true Christian should be guilty of contributing to the suffering of others. The problems that I have pointed out thus far need to stare people in the face, shock them into facing reality, and anti-gay phobias should be addressed. Too many suicides can be traced to this unnecessary prejudice, and it is not over-simplifying to say that it all begins with this ancient story. How many actually read the entire story? Very few. Most people only know Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, and they all believe that they know why. However, the real story becomes even more apparent when we apply archaeological evidence to this event, and we get a much clearer picture of what really happened.

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Since the 1960’s, archaeologists have discovered mass graves on the Lisan Peninsula which juts out into the Dead Sea. These bones date from the same period as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. To add to this, in the nearby cliffs, sulfur, what was historically called brimstone, is plentiful. Could this be the location of the cities of the plain? Almost to a certainty. As far back as the times of the historian Josephus, people were not only sure that these cities existed, they knew where, as Josephus states, in “Wars 4.8.4, that “. . . the vestiges of the divine fire and faint traces of five cities are still visible.” He may be referring to the ruins of several communities that have been recently excavated in this area, which ruins were referred to by nomads over the centuries as the remains of the cities of the plains. Even though Josephus was referring to ruins that were above ground, it is plausible to think that several of the cities of the plains may have been inundated by the catastrophe, so we may also want to continue our search under the Dead Sea. Several years ago, a radar image created by using a microwave emitter aboard the Space Shuttle produced photos showing the geometric formations of what appear to be ancient dwellings under the waters of the Dead Sea in the very area thought to be the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. I’ve seen the photos, and the outlines are clearly visible and obviously man made. On the floor of a Byzantium church, approximately fifty miles from this area, dating from the 6th century A.D., there is a mosaic known as the Madaba Mosaic Map which shows the city of Zoar. This map matches the satellite photos.

      In an article in the September/October 1979 edition of the Biblical Archaeology Review titled, “Have Sodom and Gomorrah Been Found?”, we read that this site, Bab edh Dhra, has a town and a cemetery, and the cemetery contains some half a million bodies. Two more cemeteries close by bring the total in bodies to nearly one-and-a-half million. These cemeteries are dated to have been in use from approximately 3200 B.C. to approximately 2200 B.C. Some scholars feel that some of these graves represent relocation sites of the remaining populations that moved away from the cities in the plains, Sodom and Gomorrah being among them. In other words, while it can be shown that Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as other cities in the Dead Sea area were destroyed centuries ago, the inhabitants of these cities fled ahead of the destruction and relocated their civilizations on higher ground. This is very important. For nearly two centuries after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the cemeteries are still in use . . . by the thousands.

      The Jewish account of the events alludes to what must have been earthquakes and aftershocks among the disastrous effects happening during the destruction. Along this area runs a fault line four-thousand miles long that divides the African Plate from the Arabian Plate, an area subject to earthquakes and volcanoes. In fact, in the past one hundred years, there have been seventeen earthquakes recorded here. The Bible says that even though Lot begged the angels to let him stay in the city of Zoar, rather than flee to the mountains and higher elevation as he had been ordered, once he arrived in Zoar, the fear of what he was experiencing caused him to change his mind, and he fled to the mountains after all. So, what was going on?

      According to a quote made of Peter Styles, on the staff of the Quarterly Journal of Engineering Geology, in December of 1995, “The area is made up of rock types which, when subjected to a large earthquake, will actually liquefy.” According to the book, “The Destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jericho; Geological, Climatological and Archaeological Background,” by David Neev and K.O. Emery, the components in the soil of this region “may produce a highly pressurized mixture of gasified liquid hydrocarbon rich in sulfur and hydrogen sulfide. This mixture when burned probably would emit large volumes of thick black smoke capable of being seen from great distances . . .” According to these authors, a great earthquake hit this location around 2350 B.C. The most plausible conclusion from leading experts in various scientific disciplines is that a series of earthquakes struck the area, thus triggering a chain of natural events that brought about the destruction of the cities of the plain. Once the earthquakes began, natural pockets of gases ignited throwing asphalt and sulfur into the air, and the shock of the earthquake liquefied large areas of land, possibly dropping the valley to below the level of the Dead Sea and bringing about the inundation of the various cities. Because this event was most likely one that transpired over a period of days and weeks, possibly even months, the inhabitants of these cities fled to higher ground, as indicated by the cemeteries mentioned earlier.

      Over the centuries that followed the demise of the cities of the plains, the real names for these two cities was lost. Sodom comes from the Hebrew word “s’dom,” which means “burnt,” and Gomorrah comes from the Hebrew word “amorah,” meaning “a ruined heap.” For centuries, nomads wandering past these ruins related the stories, embellishing and adding to what they had heard, and the story we read in the Bible was not written down until fifteen hundred years after the catastrophe, yet so many uneducated people rely solely on biblical rendition as if it were an eyewitness account written at the time of the event.

      I could go into lengthy and exhaustive renderings here of all the scientific evidence, that when placed together, like a giant puzzle, shows the full picture of what really happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, but the point of this chapter is not to be a scientific review for some journal. Rather, I want to point out that the myth of Sodom and Gomorrah has been abused for long enough to bring pain and suffering to gay people. Ignorance is a disease that brings only sorrow, and the cure for ignorance is truth. It is time we faced the truth of what really happened to these ancient cities and stopped using embellished versions to answer questions we need to address. As a gay child of God, I wandered from the church of my birth, enduring great pain and sorrow in the process. I thank God that, although I lost sight of Him at times, He never lost sight of me. A church is a gathering of people, and that gathering can be a private club of hypocrites, or it can be a gathering of people who are true followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ. A building is just a building. It is not a box that contains God, since He cannot be owned or regulated, and He is certainly not limited to those who think they control His love. God’s love is limitless, and if we look at Isaiah 56:8, we see that God has more children than just those who belong to a particular denomination:

      “The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered to him.”

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      It is time to destroy the myth of Sodom and Gomorrah and teach the truth. Fact is that these cities underwent a series of natural events that destroyed them along with neighboring cities. But these cities were not destroyed for being homosexual, and I sincerely doubt that they were destroyed by the God I worship. I don’t think God sent hurricane Katrina to destroy New Orleans for sin, nor do I believe God sent terrorists to destroy the Twin Towers in New York on September 11, 2001, for the same reason. Life on this planet is filled with great joys and great sorrows. It is filled with great successes and great failures. It is filled with life, and it is filled with dying. And none of this experience should be interpreted to justify the deliberate infliction of pain and suffering on any living creature. Prejudice wrought by ignorance and maintained through lack of compassion for those who suffer at the other end of prejudice, this callous disregard for its effects on others, passing on the unbroken chain of unnecessary pain and suffering, is the greatest sorrow I see afflicting our world. There is a cure. The Bible says to know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free.

    • Hanavee profile image
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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Before you comment, read all of the material I have posted. You can either read and learn, or you can sit in your bigotry and remain true to the hatred that was taught to you. Anti-gay bigotry is hatred, no matter what mask you try to put on it. God has led you here to learn, now either listen to what God has shown you, or know that He tried to speak to your heart, and you, like the Pharisees and Sadducees have stopped your ears to His truth. You will not, from this day forth, be able to tell the Lord that you contributed to the pain and suffering of gays and just did not know what you were doing.

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      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      K12rswow, I am trying to see where your real problem lies. Since you and I are both human and therefore brothers, maybe I can understand you a bit: do you have an inner secret that is knawing away at your conscience? There is nothing so powerful as this for building up homophobia.

      I am only asking, not accusing.

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      Mklow1 4 years ago

      I totally agree with what you are saying...but from the other end of the spectrum.

      "If you don't like the truth, to just say that somebody has manipulated the outcome is complicity with wrong doing. Convenient excuse, but still false."

      Aren't you accusing others of manipulating the truth? Isn't this the whole premise of your article, that homosexuality has been falsely portrayed in the Bible as evil? That would make you a hypocrite.

      "I am a degreed linguist, so I know better than to think that we cannot translate properly."

      Basically what I got from your response to me is that you are the expert and I am not, so I should trust you and follow your lead. That sounds like someone trying to manipulate others. We should all just follow the Book of Brian and go live in a commune in the Amazon and practice drinking our KoolAid, right?

      "I find it tired and worn out when people blithely make the statement that people who show a translation that causes bigotry to be checked are therefore guilty of manipulation."

      You have no idea what I have studied. What you are saying is that you are tired of the peons thinking for themselves and that we should follow your lead since you studied translating?

      You can sell that to someone else because I'm not buying it.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Mklow1, you are quite right, we have no idea what you have studied. Please tell us.

      After reading and inwardly considering ALL of what Hanavee has written please then give us some genuinly reasoned discussion comparable to his background knowledge.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Jon Jon,

      The truth has set me free. I believe in Jesus, and I do the best I can to obey his commandments. It seems Hanavee, has just cut and pasted sections of this book into this discussion. He has an agenda, and if you are his gay friend trying to support him, that's noble.

      Some of us hold the bible dear, and to see it attacked like this is too much.

      In Jesus first coming; he was a suffering servant, but his second coming he will be the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and he will pass judgment.

      You need to ask a question: Are you ready?

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      has it accurd to you ki2, that the servent who Christ healed in Luke 7 was probebly the centurion's lover?

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Has it occurred to you sword, you may have fallen on your head really hard.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      A word of advice K12. I encourage you to act childlike instead of childish.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      I approach my faith in Jesus with a child like mind, but when we are dealing with satans agents here, you really don't help.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Excuse me but you are asking some one to believe your words of probably? Like a surgeon we are dealing with God's judgement of our life and death .I would allow a surgeon to operate not on the bases of probably ,meaning he has a doubt , But the surgeon that can show me ,proof and is confident in the choice of his actions for me will gain my acceptance . And I see no children here I see A man standing up to the truth!

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Like i said earlior, anyone who claims he speaks or defends the truth as if they are the bastion of it. That's one of the hallmarks of a cult leader or follower.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      SwordofSpelling,

      Who's side are you on anyways?

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Side? Arent we all on the same side regardless of our diferences of beliefs? Or does seperating yourself from your brothers who have a different interpretation of scripture than you make you feel good about yourself, and whats with the swordofspelling thing?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Mklow1,

      You wrote: "Aren't you accusing others of manipulating the truth?" No I am accusing people who intentionally deviate from correct translation as teachers of falsehood. We can accurately translate any language, but to do so means that the translator should study the language from which he or she is translating. Translation is a known science, so for you to suggest that it is really up to what people want it to say is grave error.

      You wrote: "Isn't this the whole premise of your article, that homosexuality has been falsely portrayed in the Bible as evil?"

      Absolutely mot. Homosexuality has not been portrayed in the Bible as evil. People who have intentionally mis-translated the Bible have done so with the agenda of making homosexuality, and therefore homosexuals, evil. But, the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. You may want it to, but that still does not change what proper translation reveals.

      You wrote: "Basically what I got from your response to me is that you are the expert and I am not, so I should trust you and follow your lead."

      I have not said that you are not an expert. Show me where I wrote that. You cannot. But, if you have ever studied a foreign language, then you know that your professor must be relied on to show you the language until you have learned it proficiently to be on your own. I owe the fact that my teachers taught me well to the ease with which I speak to natives of foreign countries when I visit. Apparently, the knowledge of my professors was correct. The same goes for translating the Bible. Hebrew and Greek are not mystery languages, but the languages of the Bible, and anyone who studies them can translate from the original texts. If you cannot, then you must rely on those who are expert. If you do not know Hebrew and Greek, then who are you to condemn those who do?

      Funny how you keep making excuses for shoddy and false translations, because you need them to bolster your homophobia, but when faced with fact and correct translation, you rail against it. And this is a sign of what?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Oha nd lest we forget the slang and the attitude in which the words were written also plays a very important part in translating too. Point: 40 years ago the meaning for GAY was happy and full of joy. Now it is homosexual and has bad connotations attached to it. In Biblical times Adultery also had another meaning then it does today.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Could you explain the difference?

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      You believe that God condemns homosexuality, and I dont.

    • profile image

      Mklow1 4 years ago

      In my first comment, I told you I enjoyed your article, but I would have to disagree. Ever since then, I have found myself on the defensive because you are trying to push your beliefs on me. This is typical behavior of someone trying to manipulate others for their own personal gains. You could have simply replied "Thank you for reading my article and you are entitled to your own opinion." but you didn't, so this will be my last response.

      "Translation is a known science, so for you to suggest that it is really up to what people want it to say is grave error."

      I never said this. I said the teachings of the Bible are open to interpretation. For one to deny this is just not intelligent because people have taken advantage of this fact for centuries to manipulate others for their own personal gain. I never once spoke about "translations". You only fabricated this up to bolster your argument.

      "But, if you have ever studied a foreign language, then you know that your professor must be relied on to show you the language until you have learned it proficiently to be on your own."

      My priest is my professor of religion.

    • profile image

      Mklow1 4 years ago

      johnnycomelately,

      I simply stated in my first post that I enjoyed his article, but that I disagreed. I am not the one trying to convince others of my beliefs, so my background is irrelevant. Last time I checked, one doesn't need a PhD to disagree with someone.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Mklow1, Your priest is set to keep you in the dark at all costs......now what are they hiding, on purpose, from you??

    • profile image

      Mklow1 4 years ago

      You know my priest or are you a conspiracy theorist?

    • profile image

      Mklow1 4 years ago

      Lady Guinevere,

      This is a quote from your profile: "I don't write for the purpose of getting religous folks to come and preach to me or try to convert me."

      Are you trying to convert me to your way of thinking?

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Neither, but if you read the dcotrin you will understand more about your religion than you ever care to know. It is on-line and has been for years.

      To Everyone---learn about the things that are behind your religion. Don't just repeat what your priest or clergy tell you for they may be censored as to what they can and cannot tell you.

      If your clergy told you that your poop smelled like roses many times over, would you believe him? The clergy and the Pope are no more closer to God than you are.

    • profile image

      Mklow1 4 years ago

      "To Everyone---learn about the things that are behind your religion. Don't just repeat what your priest or clergy tell you for they may be censored as to what they can and cannot tell you."

      I have never said that I repeat what the priest says. I do consider my priest my religious teacher, but one should not simply show up to class and expect that is the only education to receive. One gets what one puts into it so I do study various beliefs and try to understand a good philosopy of living. Your statment is very assumptive.

      I am not sure what dcotrin. Can you explain?

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      I just found something in the Bible that will explain everything. It is from Mathew 5: 43 `Ye heard that it was said: Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and shalt hate thine enemy;

      44 but I -- I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you,

      45 that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous.

      46 `For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same?

      47 and if ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? do not also the tax-gatherers so?

      48 ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      The Catecism of the Catholic church and I just did a search for that and they took it down. I never said YOU, I said Everyone. Putting words in my mouth are you?

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      @Mklow1 if homosexuality is condemned by God, why did He create them with homosexuality desires?

    • profile image

      Mklow1 4 years ago

      "Mklow1, Your priest is set to keep you in the dark at all costs......now what are they hiding, on purpose, from you??"

      "Neither, but if you read the dcotrin you will understand more about your religion than you ever care to know. "

      The "Everyone" statement was a general statment to everyone (which includes me), but the other ones that I quoted directly from you, were directly towards me.

      Umm, hello. You do realize that we can go back and read your statements, right??? Your lie is in black and white. This is what manipulators do. Try to mislead the blind.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      K12rswow, if Hànavee is the author of the book it would be sensible fo him to cut and paste. They are the most relevant answers to the question that been put in the forum

      Apparently you have read some or part of brook yet you chose not take any of it on board. Your choice to remain ignorant.

      I am free to listen to Hanavee and learn new information. You think you are free but that is your mistake. You are bound by your rigid beli.efs

    • profile image

      Mklow1 4 years ago

      So johnnycomelately,

      what you are saying to K12rswow is that if he doesn't agree with what Gray says in the book, he is ignorant? That is a kind of biased way of thinking.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Not at all. I am saying that K12rswow is rigid in his thinking. I want to hear intelligent discussion. All K12rswow does is peddle religious beliefs and judgment.

      I

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Jon, Jon

      Hanavee's style suggest unfounded alternatives; assumptions, that are difficult to be proven since they have happened thousands of years ago. So, the debate falls upon translations and one's interpretation of such.

      I'm not ignorant in that I'm not picking apart the book, since this debate has matured, we pretty much know what Hanavee is all about.

      The book is an echo of what he is saying.

      But what do you expect, a good chunk of the hub page community are bible believers. It's like saying to you and Hanavee "go find a girlfriend" You wouldn't like it? right?

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Hanavee, God has actually come in the flesh, Jesus Christ is His name. He also relates to people in a way they can understand, He did not have to come check things out at Sodom & Gomorah, He knew how was. Also, for Abraham's sake. It is interesting that you would question the Word of God more than your 'latest & greatest' book you refer to.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Each of you is afraid that your beliefs and your dogma will not be able to stand up against the simple factual knowledge conveyed by that book and which Hanavee has put forward in this hub.

      Your fears are justified.

      Hanavee has predicted whatt you would all do in your fight to hang on to your false understandings ...... even in the face of so much scholarly, kindly, patient replies.

      You represent the Anti-Christ that you say you are afraid of. It is deceiving you like you cannot believe.

      Open up to infinite possibilities of love flowing into the cups of your lives.

      A constrained and limited god is not worth worshiping, if indeed you wish to worship one at all!

      The Anti-Christ is the opposition of Love.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Jon,

      I need to apologize, since scripture tells us to be humble. My big mouth engages before my brain kicks in; I jump to defend sometimes. Simply God hates sin, and it's not that confining. Some choose to obey, and that is the free will we have. I don't partake in homosexual behavior, but sometimes I do other things that later I'm ashamed of. In God's eyes; sin is sin.

      I've made my choice, and you've made yours. In the end God's keeping score.

      Peace

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      That's the best commit I have heard today ,I appreciate it and I am sure God knows your heart better than anyone here.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Mklow1 , It's funny that you pick and choose and twist my words as a smoke screan. I don't really care because you can't really read what I wrote and everyoe, yes including you, have glossed over what verses and what Jesus said about loving one another. You can't possibly hate and love at the same time. Youa re doing the same thing as Blackandgoldjack did and that ws what he got his comment deleted for. Oh he will tell you something completely different on his hub and that is his right. I am surprised that HP hasn't take that down yet because you cannot attack another hubber like that on here. It isn't permitted.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      I truly wish for all who debate the subject on this blog to understand that we are here to try to understand where bigotry comes from, and hopefully, to help usher in an era of peace, unity and love. We do not get there if we allow bigotry to go unchallenged. It is, however, a difficult task when we face those who hold on to their bigotries, because they are not affected by the outcome of the applications of those bigotries.

      I often think of the mulberry tree that grew in a southern city I resided in for a number of years. This particular mulberry tree was famous, because it had been used to hang so many Blacks. Their crimes? Being Black. What always stung my ears was to know that while these innocent Blacks were dying, strangling from ropes stretched unforgivingly from those tree limbs, bigots stood there and sang church hymns, assured in their hearts that the Bible backed fully what they had just done. I was heartened that we had come a long ways when that tree was ordered cut down, because it represented a despicable human condition - bigotry. That mulberry tree was a memorial to a wrong condition, ignorance, hurtful ignorance, ignorance that took a terrible toll. Those who murdered the many Blacks that hung from that tree are now in the hands of our Creator, and I am not the judge. He is. But, bigotry took many lives before we found enough people to seek the truth, and the truth was that the Bible did not condemn Blacks. White people were murdered by White people for daring to suggest that the Bible did not condemn Blacks. At this time in history, such formally all-pervading bigotry has subsided a bit. It has not completely gone away. Like a glowing ember in a fire that we thought was put out, it only takes enough of the right conditions to allow that remaining ember to flame up again. The antidote to ignorance is education.

      The Bible was used to deprive women in this country of all rights. My great aunt was jailed and beaten for being a Suffragette. Who, today, would dare suggest that women should not be permitted to vote because they are inferior to men? Yet, this, too, was blamed on the Bible. Properly translating the Bible has led us away from hanging Blacks for being Black, from beating women who wanted to vote, and it can lead us to harmony with all sexual orientations once we realize that we are all equal in the eyes of our Creator.

      Just as those who proved that the Bible does not condemn Blacks faced persecution and violence, and just as those who proved that the Bible does not condemn women faced hardship and troubles, we who now have to show the world that the Bible does not condemn homosexuals will face the backlash from those who would rather hold on to their bigotries. After all, it is easy for the person who is singing the church music to sing with the choir, but it is especially easy when they are not the ones being hung from that mulberry tree. Bigotry hurts. Let's end it.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      I would like to humbly and politely ask you, do you know any homosexuals? I do not ask this but for one simple reason, and that is, have you ever truly tried to understand them? Have you ever asked them how they know that they are gay? Have you ever listened to any of them? I would really like to know.

      Thanks,

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      I should tell you that I personally enjoy your balanced addition to our discussions here. You are a deep thinker, and I hope that you will stay with us through this course of making the world a better place for our having been here.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Thankyou. The respect is mutual. But please anybody, don't imagine that such respect means we must all agree. Much strength and progress is gained through disagreement and rigorous debate.

      Respect is lubricant. Need is the driving force. Good sense and intelligence are what determine the path ahead.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      """""The Bible was used to deprive women in this country of all rights.""""

      This is why nobody here looks at you credibly.

      No, I don't know any homosexuals.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      What are you afraid of then? That you might be tempted? Not if you are heterosexual, surely?

      Do you think you might lose credibility with your god-fearing congregation?

      Anyway how can you be sure you don't know any? Most of us don't broadcast it or force our interest on the disinterested.

      You might meet a very caring and loyal friend.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      I'm not into hairy legs...

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      hahaha.....can't please 'em all

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      Women in this country were considered inferior to men, and the reasoning was based in the Bible. The arguments included such foolishness as "Women were made last, came from man's ribs, were the tools of Satan in the Garden of Eden," and so on. The apostle Paul was often quoted to let women know that they were to remain silent, know their place in the home doing a woman's work. I can quote you verse after verse that was, and still is, used to demean women and "keep them in their place." When President Adams took office, his wife made a comment that now that he was President, surely he would fight for women's rights, and he laughed her to scorn.

      I am sorry that you do not know that the Bible has been, and still is in some places, used to subjugate women. I would think if you do a Google search, you'll find the churches that still teach this today. If not, I will certainly do that for you.

      And your answer that you know of no homosexuals kind of reminds me of the remark by President Ahmadinejad of Iran when he said that homosexuality does not exist in his country. Apparently, anybody you know who is homosexual does not want you to know their orientation. You know people who are, but they apparently do not care to let you know that part of their lives. Pretty sad.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      According to Laurence Gardner, in his book The Bloodline of the Holy Grail The Hidden Lineage of Jesus, he states:

      "The first criterion was that the New Testament Gospels must be written in the names of Jesus' own apostles. Matthew was, of course, an apostle, as was John - but Mark was not an apostle of Jesus as far as we know, neither was Luke; they were both colleagues of the later St. Paul. Thomas and Philip, on the other hand, were among the original twelve, and yet the Gospels in their names were excluded. Not only that but, along with various other texts, they was sentenced to be destroyed. And so, throughout the Mediterranean world, numerous unapproved books were buried and hidden in the 5th century.

      Although many of these books were not rediscovered until the 20th century, they were used openly by the early Christians. Certain of them, including the Gospels mentioned, along with the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of the Egyptians and others, were actually mentioned in the 2nd-century writings of early churchmen such as Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus of Lyon and Origen of Alexandria.

      So, why were these and other apostolic Gospels not selected? Because there was a second, far more important criterion to consider - the criterion by which, in truth, the Gospel selection was really made. It was, in fact, a wholly sexist regulation which precluded anything that upheld the status of women in Church or community society. Indeed, the Church's own Apostolic Constitutions were formulated on this basis. They state: "We do not permit our women to teach in the Church, only to pray and to hear those who teach. Our master, when he sent us the twelve, did nowhere send out a woman - for the head of the woman is the man, and it is not reasonable that the body should govern the head".

      This was an outrageous statement with no apparent foundation, but it was for this very reason that dozens of Gospels were not selected, because they made it quite clear that there were many active women in the ministry of Jesus - women such as Mary Magdalene, Martha, Helena-Salome, Mary-Jacob Cleopas and Joanna. These were not only ministering disciples, but priestesses in their own right, running exemplary schools of worship in the Nazarene tradition.

      The Church was so frightened of women that it implemented a rule of celibacy for its priests - a rule that became a law in 1138; a rule that persists today. But this rule has never been quite what it appears on the surface, for it was never sexual activity as such that bothered the Church. The more specific problem was priestly intimacy with women. Why? Because women become mothers, and the very nature of motherhood is a perpetuation of bloodlines. It was this that caused such concern - a taboo subject which, at all costs, had to be separated from the necessary image of Jesus.

    • Freeway Flyer profile image

      Paul Swendson 4 years ago

      Hanavee,

      Wow. This hub has triggered even more discussion than I thought it would. (See my comment at the top of the list.)

      You have managed to find the one topic that leads to more heated discussion than guns.

      I'm impressed with your patience. Keep fighting the good fight.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      well when you think about it , it is only man that has come to all theses conclusions about women ! The woman was to be a helper and a helper can work along side its partner to accomplish many things , two people made to do different things, does not mean they can not be view any less by God. Mary was honored to carry Gods son for nine months and give birth, did God look down on her , No, and Mary and Martha was the first to report that Jesus Had resurrected , And Yes Eve ate the fruit ,But who was in charge, it is like You are the boss of a bank and your lady employee stills money ,does that mean the boss who is in charge should still too? No !He could if he wants to ,but that is not his purpose , he likes his job and position. Adam did not have to steal what belong to Almighty God ,He chose to listen to satan, So yes EVE was mislead by satan but not Adam, why is it that satan came to Eve first and not Adam. Because he knew that Adam would have protected Eve .Women will and have been great servants for God in many bible accounts like Ester who saved Gods people from anilation from the kings decree. It is with men thoughts and ways that they have degraded women, just like they have with many other creations here on Yet we have to wait on almighty God to set all things strait. The whole earth is off balance, not to mention many abused children ,many abused relationships, and the biggest sexual abuse All things that are done in the dark are coming to the light, many people are victims and are blaming God for what has happen to them ,when really the bible says The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. God will soon end satan's control over the earth 1John 5:19 ,once his influence is gone and the ones that support his actions ,then we will really be able to enjoy the real life. it says in Isaiah 65:17-25 and 66:22 , it tells how he is going to make a new heavens and new earth. And what it will be like for those to live here at that time. People will clean this earth ,and they will build homes and plant food, the earth will have ended all that you see now. The point is do not let anyone take that opportunity for you to be a citizen , it starts here with accurate knowledge ,yes it might not be what you want to hear ,but has anything worthwhile been easy to get. Satan is the one who is trying to steal it from you like he did Adam and Eve. It doesn't have to be this way. Invite the truth ,never change it.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Kissy,

      These guys don't like women, remember? They don't like smooth skin, or sensual curves. This is the hairy leg club, whisker on whisker. Women are icky. Why should you have a place in their domain?

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      K12, we can see where your fetishes might lie. But there might be just one or two guys out there who would give you a kiss, whiskers or no, lol!

      However, there are many of us men who happily give each other a warm, friendly, deeply respectful hug, which has absolutely no sexual connotation at all.

      With this freedom of expression comes a much greater and more genuine respect for the needs and feelings of women.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Freeway Flyer,

      Thank you for your kind comments and encouraging words. The discussion of how we end the anti-gay bigotry and prejudice in this world is one I am always happy to have with anyone who wants to dialogue. My hope is that we work together to usher in an era of peace and unity.

      This evening, I saw the wonderful movie "42," the Jackie Robinson story, and I sat in awe all through that movie as I had so many examples of prejudice acted before me on the screen with incredible accuracy and talent. This movie showed an ugly side of our history, a time when Blacks were treated as less than second-class citizens in a country that they had sacrificed for in so many ways. Blacks enlisted in the war and fought valiantly for this country only to return to a country that did not show its appreciation. Instead, they were still treated despicably. Many examples of this prejudice were shown throughout this movie, and I had to comment on the fact that people were divided into two main camps: those who were wrong to participate in such hatred and bigotry, and those who were right to push for change. While we have not completely erased anti-Black bigotry in this country among Whites, we have greatly diminished its presence and manifestations. There are no more Whites Only signs for one thing, and as I sat in the restaurant where I dined this evening, I looked around me with joy at all the various races eating in this restaurant, oblivious for the most part that only a few years ago, ugly racism would have prevented this. This is harmony, a result of the correct actions on the part of some very courageous people.

      History records those who were on the right side, and history shows with disdain those who were on the wrong side. We look back on all of those ugly faces twisted and distorted with hate, and we look at their photos with sad wonder and disbelief. How could people be so cruel and uncaring? Likewise, today, we are still fighting the last vestiges of bigotry as homophobes try to keep gays from enjoying the civil rights that they, as citizens of this country, ought to enjoy. Like those Whites who fought to deprive Blacks of their civil rights, there are those who do not realize that the world is watching, recording and showing the faces of those who strive to bring pain and suffering into the lives of others all in the name of their bigotry. And in due time, those face who found themselves on the wrong side of what is right will be looked on with the same disgust and amazement as we do when we look back at the photos of the racists of that turbulent time in America that was not too long ago.

      Anti-gay bigots are on the wrong side of history.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      I have sat through a gathering of people this weekend and heard only one or two lightly anti-homo comments which were not taken up by others present, whereas not so long ago the reverse would have been true. I just ignored it.

      My travels continue now and it will be a few hours before I can respond further.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Lol , I get it ! But I love your new name for me more KISSY! lol!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      My presence has nothing to do with me ,there is something more important ,and every one has the right to hear it. So with that thought ,I am not battling the action I am just sharing the solution. It is up to the listener to hear and get what they can of value from it..

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      I know that sounds strange ,but I will be more clearer ,The mail man delivers you a letter ,you read it , hate it tear it up ! The mail man only did his service of delivering the letter as he does many, yet do you stone him for the delivery, ? That same mail man has also delivered blessings of checks, you welcome that, So the thoughts and words are like that letter ,The truth will always be available for all humans to reach. The point is will they accept it..because your fight is really not with the mail man ,it is the true writer of the letter That you are disputing .

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      I find the silence from the ultra-conservative right wing interesting. When I published this blog, I was hoping for academic discussion of the subject in the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality." What I got, instead, was a lot of name calling, a lot of vitriol posing as righteousness, and absolutely no scholarly discussion of the many posts I provided, posts that contained the correct translations of the biblical passages in question. Every time I posted correct information, their challenges were the same tired un-scholarly arguments; you know, Adam and Steve, abomination, and on and on. But, amazingly enough, from all of these self-proclaimed scholars, I received no proper justification for their claims or rants. Isn't it interesting that they left? We know that the Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality, and they flee from the truth.

      Bigotry is not of God. Hate is not of God. These anti-gay bigots have got to see at some point in their lives that they are the cause of so much pain and suffering in this world, and they need to see that their blaming their hate on God does not in any way justify their behavior, nor will it allow them to escape the coming judgment of their Creator.

      I'm still here, keeping a light on for the downtrodden children of Jesus. God knows who they are, even if the bigots don't want Him to love the gays, the Blacks, the Jews, the females, and all the rest of the people on the list of those whom bigots hate.

      Brian

      A Child of God

      P.S. I am very heartened to find that there is a huge and growing number of Baptist churches that are affirming, that is, they know that gays are equals and welcome in their churches as such.

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      Hanavee, I down loaded a sample of the book to my Kindle from the Amazon bookstore. I have to say its very well written and the second chapter discussing the fall of Sodom was excellent. Clearly some great degree of scholarly research has gone into this.

      It's a shame the same cannot be said of the right wing homophobes in the comments above, k12, kiss and tales, etc who clearly have never read a bible outside of what they are told it means, and have never actually studied it. It is astounding that after being Christians for several years they cannot form a coherent logical argument to back up their views, but only parrot the mantras driven into them from the bigot in the pulpit.

      @ kiss ad tales. You immediately lose all credibility when you start talking about satan deceiving Eve in the G of E and humanity thereafter. If you had ever bothered to read a Jewish commentary on Genesis you would see that what your Church fed you and what you suck up is Christian mythology. However, discussions of satan is to drift from the topic at hand so I will leave it there.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Disappearinghead,

      I am glad to hear that you are reading the book. It is wonderful when people can add to this discussion with intelligence. Even if a person read the book and disagreed with it, I would love to hear a scholarly approach to why they think it is incorrect. I am always open to hear new ideas, new translations, new historical data...but all of it based in fact. This book is based on forty years of research. That is no small effort to get it right, and when someone simply comes on here with their anti-gay prejudices parroting the bigotries of their various church preachers, I see that they are not reading any of the proofs shown in this book, but are, instead, trying to shout down anyone who does not agree with them. Funny how several of them came on here the very first hour I published this article. I found that amazing, as if all they do all day is troll the internet to find anyone who is pro-gay rights and launch into their same old tired hate rhetoric. At first, they thought this was a site being posted by someone with the same lack of education as others whom they have successfully attacked, but once I began to post correct information that is based in fact and sound Theology, they have fled. Wonder where they went? I wish that they would have stayed and learned something, end their hate. I really do.

      I hope that you will keep coming back with more thoughts on what you are reading in the book. And any gays whom you know who are fighting persecution from the ultra-right-wing Christian homophobes, share what you are learning with them. My prayer is that we bring an end to bigotry and hate. Education is the key. Sharing that knowledge is the path.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      I am finding it pretty funny that even those who are haters here about gays know nothing about them at all. There are lesbians too, you all know that??? Woman who don't like men too and like other women....hmmmmm I see something else with all of this when I look at the whole picture. Men like to see 2 women getting it, but they don't like to see 2 men getting it......now bare (no pun intended) the religious raise singe sexes by themselves (as with all girls schools and all boys schools) and expect nothing to come of it. When puberty hits what do you think is going to happen???? doh!!! Some of you have no concept of Biology 101 and yet can judge without any knowledge of what is going on??? Look at the consequences of your actions and stop blaming invisible beings you also have no idea what are...

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      To Ms Lady Guinevere you once said for people to get your mind out the gutter, when it seems very obvious you want to live there , We understand your stand on the subject ,but you yourself are attacking people for your believe , that will not change truth of right and wrong ,it was written law way before we were all born , So the one who created all law.your complaint is with him .not with the ones who wish to comply with his law. There is always consequences for breaking any law from the beginning of time! and your meaning of haters is your definition of people who do not personally agree with you and those you support ,and really no one personally uses that word but you and your supporters . So when I see your name I just see hate ,I see name calling ,and I see stones throned,I

      Do not see a person I would really want to consider as having any accurate knowledge that would be considered . I just see an angry person.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      I think we need to put this thread to bed. No need giving Havanee any more attention with his agenda.

      Right?

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      NOT!!!! You can always block him from your feed or just go away yourself. The problem with all this will not go away just because some refuse the fact that this exists. That is up to you and not anyone else. Take some self responsibility in your thoughts and actions.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Kiss and Tales you can write in the English language so it's reasonable to suppose you can also read. Please read that book right through. Many of your misunderstandings will be cleared up if you read it with an open mind and heart.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Thank you Jonnycomelately. KandT really does not know how to read and likes to slander people. OMGoodness they wonder why no one wants to converse with them. I never called any of you names like that nor do I want to. That is just immature. Does that make them feel superior or something? I never did get that part. What I do get is the higher they put their pedestals the harder they hit when they fall and they always fall at some point.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      To Mr JComeL , Do you have any doubt that you are a man or women ! You know the answer! Rather you are satified with the results that is your business ,not mine,you can not live or die for me that is my choice. So with that I do not need to read a book to make your believe right. I have no doubt that God's word is enough for me as it stands.,and I am not looking for loop holes in it , it like telling the judge he is unlawful in his own courtroom. Really how far will you get in a human court room ,when the subject is really about you an disrespect.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      If the judge said "I believe you commited murder," would you be satisfied with his belief?

      That book is about intelligently acquired knowledge. It has nothing to do with loopholes.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      And Ms G ,you are the one classifying people as they, they meaning people who do not think like you and your supporters , what will happen because they do not think like you is very childish or immature, all things you have labeled others you be reflects in your charter of words and action. No one can learn from chaos ,except how to move on.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      If God Almighty said then it is true ,because how do we know the word in the first place ( Cain and Able ) the first murder. That is how you know it.

      Intelligent in who's book Satan ,You know he is a God too! He is the one you are fighting for, not God Almighty ,because God does not have to change for us , we are the imperfect ones with imperfect minds. So the intelligence of imperfect humans how much will be pure truth.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Hahahahahaha, you bore me and others with your rhetoric. You do NOT want to read and that is a simple fact and you have proven it several times here. Be done with you!

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Thank you !

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Sin....is a God and yet religions teach you he is real......he is in Mythology just like God, Jesus and Satan. Don't beleive me...read it if you can: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_(mythology)

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Looks like the homophobes are coming out of the closet as it seems.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      SOM, What gets me is their same old pattern all the time. It never changes. It is the cultish behavior. Notice that I did NOT call them that name or label them by that name...they will tsit it to say that I did and that is an indoctrinated behavior all it's own. Then they call you names and that is also an Indoctrinated behavior and they are taught that because they get mad and think that if they call names they will win. It is a pattern. They don't see it or are indoctrinated to not see it. I was stalked by someone like that for 3 years and he finally got it and never bothered me again. It does get really boring and I just turn my head and leave them. I used to fight with them, but eh--what the heck it is the person it is the indoctrination talking.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      Mythology, get it Myth? Yes the subject is in Wikipedia , but as a reference of subject. And sin is a condition of action not a he, because we all sin ,man and women and child.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      LG, for a cult that believes in the hell doctrine, they sure dont act like it.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      And please there is one comment that was made untasteful that I had nothing to do with ,Yet you still use they ,yes some one used a name ,I did not. So do not blame others for what others do . No one deserves to be call names even when they disagree .

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Nit picking is all I can say right now. The only ones that will take my "they" to heart are the ones who have a guilty conscious.....I did use that because it is a generalized term. If I wanted names I would have used names.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      To k12rswow I love your way with words ! lets put this thread to bed! Wow your timing is great! And I do agree with you!

      As long as the bed is clean!

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      It looks like you two should Kiss and Kuddle up with a good intelligent book between you, then you will have something useful to contribute here.

      We have given you ample opportunity and respect to enter an intelligent discussion yet you do not have the courage to even read it.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      jonnycomelately, the book is not really the issue. If Hanavee thinks this book is better than the Bible then the presentation would necessarily not be of a Christian who believes homosexuality is fine, but of someone trying to toss out the Christian perspective altogether. Though, it does seem that Hanavee does not think too much of the Bible, according to the fallibility which is presented in Hanavee's posts.

      It is good to read books to understand more and learn more, however, a true Christian would not think any other book has more weight than the Bible.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      I think it is damning when bigots use the Bible to condemn those they do not like, even though this condemnation is not of God, nor is it backed by the Bible. As long as they can twist the Bible to make it seem like they are right, then in their minds, that is what the Bible says...and they do NOT want to hear the truth. They cannot be wrong! Their beliefs are the only ones that have any validity. And this close-minded bigotry is darkness, it is a tool of the Devil, and it is anti-Christ.

      Jesus taught us to seek the Truth, and He said the Truth would set us free, yet bigots refuse to hear the Truth, setting up their own truths, then distorting the Bible to make it seem as if their bigoted way is the Truth. The Bible says by their fruits ye shall know them, in other words, what they generate, what they create, will show us what they really are. And what do these bigots generate? What do these bigots create?

      Instead of love, they sow hate. Instead of unity, they cause division. Instead of peace, they incite war. Instead of joy they bring sorrow. None of these results is derived by following the teachings of Jesus, therefore, we know that these bigots are teaching hate instead of Jesus and are anti-Christ. God help them. God have mercy on them.

      The Truth can always stand to be questioned, because if it is Truth, it will stand, and if it is un-Truth, it will fall. The bigots who rant against gays and lesbians find their hatred in the comforts of ignorance that originated in darkness. This book shows them the Truth, the Truth as shown in the Bible, and rather than study the correct translations, they would prefer to continue harming this world with their poison. They have been shown the Truth, and they have refused to hear. They will answer to God at the Judgment.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      I find it very interesting that you call yourself a Christian, then resort to lying. Please show me anywhere that I have said that this book, or any book for that matter, is better than the Bible. Back up your false statements with fact!

      Your false statement would be tantamount to saying that the Bible concordances that you so proudly use are "better than the Bible" because they are lexicographical aides. The book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," is a lexicographical aide for properly translating the Bible. Your problem is that this is one aide you do not want to read for fear that it will show you that your bigotries are unfounded and un-biblical.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Sojourner, I agree that book is not the real issue. YOU, the person inside who is reading this post, is the real issue. You are not displaying one bit of intelligence. Not one bit of good sense. Not one bit of honesty. Not one bit of faith, in that you do not have the courage to look beyond your narrow confines of life.

      You can of course change that if you wish. But right now you do not convey anything like what you claim to be -- christian. You are just a religious zealot.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      Amen!

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Sojourner, I will gladly retract my statement about intelligence, above.

      You are obviously an intelligent person... sorry to have maligned you there. However, we can all be subject to erroneous teachings which have come to us down through the ages, from people who, for one reason or another, chose to push certain philosophical ideas onto others.

      Those "teachers" were no different to what we are today. Human nature has not changed, I believe, for millenia. We find it attractive to convince others of one´s own perspective. This is most likely a version of Survival of the Fittest. The most powerful ideas are those that fit the needs of people at any given time.

      In bygone years, when science had very few answers to life´s important and pressing questions, beliefs, superstitions, dogma all played their part in popular religions.

      Today we have the benefits of much more scientific knowledge. Answers can be hypothesised, tested, proven or otherwise.

      I prefer to listen to those answers, question them further and to the best of my ability try to understand them. Some are way beyond my ability to assimilate. Others have the brains and disciplines to teach me much more. There are some things that will always be too difficult for me.

      I have delved into the religion side of life. Much of it left me cold. The unintelligent nonsense taught with the object of controlling my mind and my activities through life just does not fit with me at all, so I reject it.

      When anyone tries to convince me that my "salvation" depends on me accepting ridiculously implausible, ney impossible and unscientific concepts, then I throw them into the waste basket.

      I would suggest to you that you do the same.... but that of course is your choice, because your mind will require different view points.

      Please don´t ask me to accept magical, imaginative god-figures into my understandings.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Life is a mystery. This is the reason so many have sought the answer to the everlastingly asked question, "What is the meaning of life?" If someone had ever been able to prove their answer, we would all have that answer.

      The more we study the universe for answers, the more we question. I have often said that there are four questions we ask ourselves at some point in life: "Who am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going when I leave here?" These questions do not have simple answers.

      I believe that the Ultimate Truth, the answers to all questions, does exist and has existed throughout all time. It is like a great tapestry showing a wonderful and awesome picture, but we cannot see it in this human condition due to our very limited nature. All we each have is one or two threads taken from this Ultimate Truth. We run with them and say to those we meet that we have the Ultimate Truth, when all we have is a thread or two from this great tapestry. We cannot make up the entire picture with just a few threads. Only all the threads will show us that entire Ultimate Truth picture.

      No one can hold all the grains of sand in the world in their sight at one moment, because we are limited. Those grains of sand, nonetheless, still exist, in spite of our inability to perceive them all at once. I once had an experience that I call sacred, because it happened during a religious event in which I was seeking a spiritual relationship with God, and I wrote about this on my other blog titled "I Was Taken To Heaven." I won't detail that here, but one part of that experience taught me something, and that was that my preconceived idea of what God looked like, based on all that I had been taught, was incorrect. My belief now is that God is not some man who sits on a throne and resembles the god Zeus. Instead, God is the source of everything that exists, both past and present, and from God emanates all that we perceive. Like the sun radiating from its core, we see the corona and feel its heat, but we cannot see the center, God is the center of everything. Without God, we would never have existed, and our design, even the order of the universe is the design of this entity, not by ours.

      We did not create ourselves. We did not create our universe. We did not tell the atoms what to form. We do not have control over the expansion of the universe, and we do not have control over its destiny. We are atoms in this thought from the great Ultimate Truth, floating along in the destiny ordained for us from the Creator of All. In our finite minds, we will never fully understand it all, even though we attempt to do so with religious ritual, some of it right, and some of it flawed. And God smiles.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      I had to chuckle when k12rswow gave marching orders to his fellow posters that their little group should avoid this blog so that it would "whither on the vine." What he is saying is that if their little group does not come here and attack the fact that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, then this blog will disappear, and no one will see them losing their arguments. They want this truth to disappear, because it just makes them uncomfortable. Rather than learn the truth that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, rather than read this book that shows them the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, they would rather stick their heads in the sand and hope that the light of the truth goes away so that they can continue enjoying their darkness. One preacher's wife commented to me, when I told her about these people, that they are too late. As she put it, "The train has already left the station."

      It's a new day. France has just legalized gay marriage. Eventually, every state in the United States will honor gay marriage, and ultimately, churches that teach that gays are going to hell will become a thing of the past, relegated to the dust bin of superstition, ignorance and baseless fears.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      One little saying always "says it all" for me: How do you make God smile? Tell him your plans!

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      You made me smile with that one. So true. Every time I see some bigoted preacher get up and growl about how he has the authority to order other people around, or when I hear Pat Robertson tell us that we are being punished because we did not do things the way Pat Robertson would have ordered them, if God has a face, there would be a bemused expression on it.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Dear Brian a child of the god of this world.

      We've made our case by using the sword of the Spirit. We've given you much scripture; you laughed or found a way to twist it. The deal is; you have a reprobate mind, and righteousness means nothing to you. Therefore death is not your friend, and judgement day is nothing to look forward too.

      K12

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Hahaha, you made me smile too K12. Judgment Day is right here and now, for you, Brian, me, everyone. No need to wait any longer.

      You can put that sword back in its scabbard, you will not be needing it.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      k12, when has instilling fear into someone had a good outcome? You are taught to do that and you just better be careful of what you wish for because it will come back to you. I understand that you have no concept of what that is, but alas that is also in the Bible. Why won't you read his book? I think it is just stubborness and that too is a sin. Are you afraid of these types of people? If you say not then I feel that you are bearing false witness. Do you even know what bearing false witness is? Many religious people do it all the time and have no idea that they are doing it.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      @K12, then answer this. If homosexualty is condemned, why does God the potter creat the clay gay?

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      At the end of the day we do not stand united before our Lord. Each of us individually must give an account. God hates sin, therefore as we forge on in life we must make decisions. For those who have repented and turn to God, we are not judged for our sin, but our works. Those who have a hard heart against the Lord will have their sings judged for all to see.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Is it me, or does anyone else notice that they cant answer the question about the potter and the clay? Isaiah 64:8.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      Do you know that blasphemy is the only sin mentioned in the Bible as unforgivable? Do you know that blasphemy is attributing to the Devil that which is of God? Beware of your "condemning sword." I know who my Heavenly Father is, and I know that you cannot separate me from His love. But, you certainly can separate yourself from His love when you call someone, who is obviously His child, a child of the Devil. You may want to have a talk with the Lord about your hate, your temper and your tongue.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Sword, I think you were dropped.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      SwordofManticorE,

      They cannot answer that simple question, because it would mean that they are wrong, so they just keep on ignoring it in hopes that it will go away.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Dropped? As in how? How you think is a product of your beliefs.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Do you guys ever notice that, typical of homophobes like Westboro Hate Church, they just stand there yelling their ignorance, but they can never back it up with fact? Like retarded parrots that just keep saying the same mantra over and over, "God hates fags!", they just don't get how stupid they look. They refuse to read anything that might challenge their bigotry. They remind me of the Church when Copernicus tried to tell them that the sun did not revolve around the Earth. The Church tortured Copernicus for teaching blasphemy, and here are these homophobes, like the Church of the time of Copernicus, trying to defy truth by standing there yelling the same tired and ignorant epithets, as if doing so makes their ignorance and bigotry truth. They won't read the truth, because they think the Bible backs their homophobia. The only way the Bible backs their homophobia is to twist, distort and intentionally mistranslate. The sun does not revolve around the Earth, and the Bible does not condemn homosexuality.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Han,

      Westboro are not christians.

      Sword,

      " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

      Read all of Romans chapter 3. Lot's of good answers to your potter question.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      @K12, Rom 3 doesn't answer why the potter made the clay gay, and neither can you.

      Btw, westboro are christians, just not very good christians.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      K12, Paul wrote that and it is his own letters to his own churches. Now I have stated that many times and yet you don't listen. It is as Brian said and you do exhibit that same behavior. Here is another verse out of that Bible that you can't read or don't want to spread the "GOOD NEWS" from about Sin: Psalms 103: 11 For, as the height of the heavens [is] above the earth, His kindness hath been mighty over those fearing Him.

      12 As the distance of east from west He hath put far from us our transgressions.

      BTW I don't read anything that Paul wrote because it is a blasphemy to what Jesus spoke. If all you do is profess what Paul wrote then you are NOT a Christian. BTW Jesus was also NOT a Christian. Following HIS words is, not following Paul's.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      @LG, I believe in Paul's letters, does that mean I am not a Christian?

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      That makes you a Paulean. http://deborah-sexton.hubpages.com/hub/Apostle-Pau...

      Be sure that your read the latest comments on that hub.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Yet it was Paul who told us to embrase the title as a Christian, and it was Peter who said that Paul is a brother and the wisdom Paul recieved was from God.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      The pain and suffering that is daily meted out to homosexuals often does not seem to register on the consciences of heterosexuals, solely because many heterosexuals live in a comfortable world that is ordered around their interests. They are fine as long as the homosexuals don’t show themselves. This perversion of justice was centuries in the making, for the world was not created as heterosexual-only. It was created with all people of all orientations. The anti-homosexual agenda began under the reign of Emperor Constantine in the 4th Century, and it only took one hundred years for the idea to be fully implemented that homosexuals were evil, and the centuries since then have compounded this corruption until this world is the way it is—generally homophobic. Whether people want to admit it or not, society does a bad job with equality among the sexual variations. When you are comfortable as a Christian and do nothing to end discrimination and hatred, then you are missing some valuable lessons from the Bible, not least of which is the example of Sodom. Every time this event is mentioned in the Bible, it is always because of one thing—Sodom had comfort and despised those who did not. Sodom had bread, and did not share with those who did not. And like Sodom, the inhabitants of the world today are comfortable with it pretty much being a private club for heterosexuals; there is no need to care about the needs of other sexual orientations. Jesus speaks to this issue best in Matthew 25:31-40:

      “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

      And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

      And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

      Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

      For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

      Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

      Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

      When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

      Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

      And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

      Christians, you have a responsibility to God to honor His children, no matter what their color, no matter what their gender, no matter what their ethnicity, no matter what their sexual orientation, for what you do to these children of God, you do so unto Him.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Lady G,

      What to do with you?

      Let's look at Psalms 103 "His kindness hath been mighty over those fearing Him." Those on this blog don't fear him, and based on your last post, you don't have much fear in him either; especially if you attack his word (Paul NT)

      Christian is defined to be Christ like, to strive as much as possible to be like him, and believe me everybody fails to one extent or the other.

      Good news is the gospel, or the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus. He paid the penalty for our sins, but it is not cart Blanche for us to continue in that sin. It's about repentance and turning back to him.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      A.D. 305, the Spanish provincial Synod of Eliberis enjoined bishops, priests and deacons to separate from their wives. In A.D. 325, the Council of Nicaea reversed this ruling. However, this was then reversed in A.D. 385 by Pope Siricius who demanded their complete celibacy.

      Arnobius, deceased circa A.D. 317, taught that sex was filthy and degrading, and challenged as blasphemers anyone who suggested that Jesus was “born of vile coitus and came into the light as a result of the spewing forth of senseless semen, a product of obscene gropings.”

      Because most cults and their temple rituals included sex, Emperor Licinius, A.D. 320, made laws that forbade Christian men and women from appearing together in their houses of worship.

      Under Emperor Constantine, Christianity finally became the imperial religion of Rome in A.D. 313. The Gnostics taught against sex and had strong influences in the Early Church, and their teachings had a great influence at this time, because the Church had grown into competing rival factions, and the best way to hurl an insult at another faction was to accuse them of engaging in bizarre sex rituals like the cult temples. From this point on, the various factions would lean heavily toward the anti-sex teachings of the Gnostics in order to avoid appearing to resemble the sexual freedoms of the pagans.

      A.D. 326, Christian Emperor Constantine had his son, Crispus, put to death on account of a false allegation made by Constantine’s wife, Fausta. Then, a few months later, finding the truth, Emperor Constantine had Fausta put to death by being suffocated in an over-heated bath. This was the great Christian Constantine showing the love of Jesus.

      A.D. 337, on his death bed, Emperor Constantine had himself baptized by Eusebius, Bishop of Nicomedia.

      At this time there was a war growing between the very powerful eunuchs who were always in positions of respect, power and trust at the royal courts, and those not-so-favored Church bishops who resented this, particularly because of a great theological division that had arisen. That division came about due to the difference between those who thought that Jesus was NOT the son of God by birth, but was adopted later by grace, the Arians, and those who thought that Jesus was born the son of God, the Nicenes. The powerful eunuch Eusebius was an Arian, and he greatly controlled the royal court of Emperor Constantine. The only way to get the powerful Arian eunuchs out of their way was to begin work that chipped away steadfastly at the rights of homosexuals, thus the eventual end of the eunuchs. Of note is the fact that Eusebius continued to serve under the son of Emperor Constantine, Constantius II, and it was Constantius II, a Christian, who issued a decree in A.D. 342, that recognized homosexual marriage as long as neither male partner was effeminate:

      “When a male gives himself in marriage to a “woman” (effeminate man), and what he wants is that the “woman” play the male role, where sex has lost its place, where the crime is such that it is better not to know it, where Venus is changed into a different shape, where love is sought but not found, we order laws to arise, justice to be armed with an avenging sword, so that the disgraced persons who are or in future shall be guilty may be subjected to exquisite penalties.”

      Theodosian Code 9.7.3

      The gradual undermining of the power of the homosexual eunuchs continued at such a pace, that by A.D. 390, the pendulum had swung a full 180 degrees, and the Catholic Church could now control the empire. The Catholic Church used the definition of eunuchs in Matthew 19:12 to mean people born with anatomical birth defects, thus depriving homosexual eunuchs of their biblical protection, and began to teach that homosexuality was the sin of Sodom.

      A great comparative analogy would be to consider how Hitler completely reversed the direction of Germany and systematically took control while slowly poisoning public opinion and turning a nation against its Jewish citizens. He went from total obscurity to complete control of a near empire, and he turned a once integrated segment of German society into a scourge worthy of death in the concentration camps. Such is the power of deliberate and orchestrated erosion when it is used against others within the world of politics . . . and even the Church. False accusations and twisted logic made the Jews evil, but they never were, really. If you believed the lie, then the Jews were evil, but if you didn’t swallow the poison, then you knew that the Jews had not suddenly become evil. They were not evil before Hitler’s campaign, and they were not evil during it. Likewise, homosexuals were not now evil just because the Nicenes needed them to be in order to gain power. But, we have been centuries undoing the damage that began at this time. Sad to think that people cannot think for themselves and follow the simple truth that is before them, that being that God made us all. We all belong to Him. How long till we all see that? This evolution of turning accepted homosexuality into despised, even sinful, homosexuality was the introduction of deliberate ignorance designed to make homosexuals a hated minority. What began in the Church continued to be endorsed and embellished by that same Church through the centuries to come.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      K12, stop talking and start living a life of Love .

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      K12, what to do with you and your kind that have come here and refused to read the book that is being promoted here or the truth of what the world is like with your kind in it. be christ-like? what is Christ-like when Christ came and worked, played and preached to the SINNERS of the world yet none of you want to do that---Good grief it is beneath you. I have yet to see the very principle that Jesus came to tell YOU ALL come from any of you and that is simply: LOVE THY NEIGHBORS AS THYSELVES. Tell me and all the rest here where is that? I don't see it and I don't hear it. If you go against one of the commandments then you go against all of them.....Do you not get that or believe in that? Wow if you don't because it appears that you do not...where are you going....to get judged by YOUR works and burn in that firely place just like you have done to others not like you.

      Good News is that he loved us all and he did not make a distinction as to the race, color, sex or creed of anyone---MAN DID THAT.

      Jesus was all compassionate, you aren't so you don't fit the bill for being Christ-Like. Jesus said those of you who have not sinned cast the first stone. You don't get that either.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      Whose Bible are you using to call homosexuality a sin? The one you wrote in your own image? The Bible that most Christians follow does not condemn homosexuality. Read the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality" and see why you are trying to make the Bible say what it does not, i.e., back your bigotry.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Lady G

      If I was a hatter, I would rip apart most detractors. I've not done that. I have answered questions with scripture. If those don't accept scripture there is nothing left to do?

      Your right about loving others, but this debate has started by this guy supposedly plugging his book, or that of another. He doesn't focus on murder, cheating, stealing or any other sin. His focus is making the gay lifestyle acceptable, and challenging the bible.

      I've tried to refute his notion using scripture. Those that have ears let them hear.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      What is the problem with promoting a book that was written? Are you saying that you would have burned and banned this book because of your selfish desire to dislike something that God made. Yes GOD because weather or not that you bleieve it Jesus did say that the Kingdom of God is WITHIN US and that all the answers are within us. I don't think that this "guy" had in mind to start a fight and bring scripture toting people to his hub. Again where is the love? You still do not understand what that is or how to show it. That is YOUR problem, not this "guy". Oh and ow you claim that it is a guy after all. hmmmm how nice of you.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Where does it say in that Bible of yours that we are the judge and the jury and that we should go out and judge everything by your rules? NO WHERE!

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      If one were to go back and look at my comments and compare them to yours, I would think most would come to the conclusion that you are an angry woman, and you are on the attack. You've judged me for defending a scriptural truth.

      There is no more I can say.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      K12, Of course you would say that, it is indoctrinated into you that whomever does not agree with your kind of religion is mad or crazy or evil. I have been told that many times and it is unfounnded just like your belief.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      """" I have been told that many times""""

      Maybe you should start listening to these people.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      K12, just because you and some others think that I am angry does not mean that I am. I think it's funny that you don't know the first thing about sociology or even how to read your own Bible and further that that.....how to love another as yourself. I am not angry but am rolling on the floor laughing at your pulling straws to get into heaven. Judging others does NOT get you into heaven. Peeking into someone elses life and trying to get the speck of dust out of their eye while you have a log does NOT get you into heaven. Shoving your beliefs onto others does NOT get you into heaven. In fact Jesus stated that if those whom you are trying to teach to don't listen to move on. He didn't tell them to shove it some more until they are so afraid of going to hell that they must believe you....no I am not made or angry or anything like that. I think it is funny that you CHOOSE to listen to a so called "man of god" that you are blinded by what really happens outside of those four walls called a church.

      I am not an angry person and this just proves the point that you are judging based on ??????? Know they enemy, don't punch him in the face.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Your last post is unfocused and scattered

      You accuse me of:

      Not knowing sociology.

      Not knowing how to read my bible.

      Not knowing how to love.

      Judging others.

      Pushing beliefs.

      I guess I don't know what you are all about, and it's hard to follow your logic.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Twisting does not help you. You are exhibiting another behavior of cultism. If you do not comprehend what I am saying then don't read it and read the book that this hub was about. Perhaps you will learn something new....

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      I am still waiting for you to offer fact, scripture or even proper translation for your blind bigotry. You say that you keep offering it. Where? You back up your arguments with more bigoted statements. Bigotry does not make fact. Fact makes fact. Everybody who disagrees with the hatred you show towards gays is labelled "sinner." You offer no proof for your pronouncements, and you sound like the Taliban of Afghanistan who condemn everything THEY don't like by saying "Thus saith God." You don't speak for God, you speak for the bigots who hate gays, and in so doing, you shame the message of Jesus that you claim to represent.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      I guess when I disagree with you, you define that as hatred. ???

      Leviticus 18:22

      Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Ok, I'll try posting again: Hope you didn't delete my last post.

      Leviticus 18:22

      "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." (NLT)

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      And the penalty for same sex was death by stoning back then. Do you agree this penalty should be made law in our society today?

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Hanavee, because you were indicating errors in the Bible and seemed to think the book you are promoting & using is an infallible source it appeared as though you were indicating your book superior to the Bible. I was not lying, but I do apologize if that is not what you meant.

      However, you present the book you are using as the ‘latest & greatest’ lexical source, rather than any ‘tried & true’ lexicons/Biblical dictionaries/apologetics books/Biblical commentaries/etc. I, or anyone else, might use. Whenever someone directs people away from the previously known translation of the Bible to a new understanding of what it must mean, based upon their recent ‘evidence’, it generally leads away from the true Biblical translation, interpretation, and understanding which should be understood. It is an indication that God’s people must be wrong and therefore God was unable to keep them in line in the understanding of truth while simultaneously spreading the gospel around the world. This is often how cults begin and is most usually how misinterpretation of scripture spreads. ‘We now have more knowledge & evidence than previously, and this latest & greatest source testifies to that fact!’ Really? Could it be that your book is not actually error-free? Perhaps your source does not trump others as you claim. If it did I should suppose that it won’t be long before all the church of God adopts your theology and tosses out any sin that a new book says is not a sin. If your source is truly correct in indicating that homosexuality is not a sin, then perhaps another book will come out indicating something else is not a sin. If it does or not the question must be brought up: If your source is accurate, and other translations/interpretations are incorrect, then what else in the Bible is wrong? If the whole of the Bible is under question, then why use it as authority at all? If you are truly indicating that you are still under such an authority, as the written Word of God, but are simply using a new source condemning the old sources that seem to condemn a lifestyle (or to you an orientation) then how do you hold to it that it is the written Word of God. If you don’t believe it is fully infallible and inerrant originally, then you are opposing the Bible as we know it. If you are opposing the Bible as we know it then how do you know any truth yourself, unless you suppose particulars are true because of a personal bias and others less true or untrue altogether. From my perspective your stance does not make sense, nor does it align with what is understood by multiple scholars, what is mapped out by nature (which God authored), and which seems very straight forward and obvious throughout Scripture.

      You suppose my personal bias (and you believe bigotry) hold me to my position, but it seems this sentiment to be much more true for you. I use the ‘tried & true’, scholarly input, personal study, the Bible translations which are literal (like the NASB), input from history, science, philosophy, etc. to understand that from every angle the truth remains the same. Homosexuality is a lifestyle… it is a sinful lifestyle… the Bible does condemn this lifestyle… the Lord wishes to free people from this lifestyle… everyone has sinned, and all are perishing unless they accept Jesus as Lord & Savior, so this lifestyle is not necessarily the primary sin to be focused on; the primary is a rejection of Jesus, but any lifestyle which leads away from Him and is not thwarted will bring a person away… homosexuality is just one of these lifestyles, but there is hope for all, as indicated in 1 Corinthians 6:11.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      You like to throw around the term "tried and true," as if that somehow makes whatever you have been relying infallible. The horse and buggy was tried and true. The model T Ford was tried and true. The first rocket that launched man to the moon was tried and true. All of these were tried and true until we discovered better. Down through the centuries since Jesus appeared, man has wrestled with what Jesus said and did not say. Entire books and letters supposedly written by the apostles and disciples have been left out, lost or burned. Those few books that did get canonized were chosen by men, not God. The Bible is not some dictation wherein God sat down with some secretary and said, "Okay, here's everything I want to say." God did not take a pen and write the Bible. It is a collection of poetry, history, lineage charts, war chronicles, writings by those considered to be prophets, parables, letters to congregations, edicts from leaders, legal presentations and more. You are reading a history book and trying to say this is written by God. Infallible? No. Why? Because men put it together, and since it was first canonized, theologians have debated it and still do.

      Tried and true? The lexicons you are using that you call tried and true were not around at the time of Jesus, they weren't around at the time of Constantine, they weren't around in the Middle Ages, so how do you affirm them as tried and true? Could it be because these slanted tools only back your bigotry? Many of the commentaries that were available before 1900 are obsolete, because of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947. Man has searched for original copies of the books of the Bible for centuries, and every once in a while, we get something new, like the library at Nag Hammadi, discovered after the Dead Sea Scrolls. Tried and true? Seriously, you need to throw away the books that are merely carbon copies of your religious views and do some serious study. Why are you afraid to read the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth"? Afraid it might make you think? Afraid you might have to finally really study? The ancient Chinese concept was that they were the center of the universe, and all others were demons and unworthy of life as humans. Only books that supported this belief were ever permitted. Sound familiar?

      The Bible says to study.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Jonnycomelately, I appreciate your retraction. This can be cordial, though obviously is an argumentative hub article. I also appreciate your indication of where you are coming from. We each have a bias, and each of us have been influenced. The truth will be the truth whether any of us believes it or not. The grass remains green and the sky blue, or perhaps an even greater absolute, a perfect circle remains such whether we call it a square or not. In other words, there are particulars that can be known.

      If one believes in a god or not is not relevant to whether there is a god… the belief only reflects if one believes or not. So, it is possible for someone to believe properly and actually be right about something, because truth has either been revealed, they guessed it right, or it is extremely obvious (like the circle).

      My belief is originally derived from growing up with an understanding of God. However, just being raised a particular way does not determine a bias, for it is often that one’s bias changes to be the opposite of one’s upbringing. I believe God revealed Himself to me, in various ways. Is that tangible or can it be observed. In some instances, yes, but there is more to the story than that. I also studied and began to understand what I know now: God is real, as He has revealed Himself throughout history, in science, and is revealing Himself in various ways today.

      You may think the idea of God is hocus pocus or gibberish. Either way, let me explain my position. I believe God is real and powerful. That He authored the Bible, but used people to do the writing. He has always worked through people to reach people, so it makes sense and the Bible also indicates this is one way He does work in our world. Believing such it is not difficult for me to understand that He has kept His Word, the Bible, pure from imperfections that taint the meaning or any theology thereof. I believe the original text of the Bible to be inerrant, and the texts we have now to be infallible. This is not the only reasons I believe however. I will say my belief has remained the same, but has been strengthened by further evidence. From what we see in archeology, from multiple texts and manuscripts of the Bible, from outside sources which indicate Jesus, and other people/places/situations in the Bible… it can be observed that the Bible is very accurate and has been kept throughout the ages to be accurate.

      I have also studied science. The cosmology, physics, biology, and other sources show a handprint, if you will, of God. It seems evident through evidence that there was a creator, and it seems evident this Creator is involved in this world still. Because of the scientific evidence my faith is strengthened and so is my apologetics.

      I understand that God has kept His Word, the Bible, pure and He has revealed Himself through creation, and in other ways, to show Himself to the world. My suggestion to anyone is not to throw out anything you cannot yet grasp, but perhaps move forward in a pursuit of truth until you can thoroughly grasp it.

      Thanks for reading jonny!

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      The Bible does not say that in Leviticus 18:22. I cannot believe that you have even read the subject of this article, since it covers that explanation very well.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      You said:

      """""in defense of their bigotry cannot quote any other passage in the entire book of Leviticus! Wonder why this is?"""""

      Lev 18:22

      1 Cor 6:9

      1 Tim 1:9-10

      Rom 1:26-27

      Yours truly,

      A bigoted bible thumper who loves gays, murderers, thieves, liars, and the whole lot.

      K12

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Hanavee, the Chinese approach does sound familiar; it seems to be used by you again and again. You are also trying to use fear to promote your book. I am not afraid to read it because of what it says, I am afraid I will waste my time, unless I write a rebuttal book perhaps. I like the method most used by the secret service in determining whether a bill is counterfeit or real… they study the real and know the real so when they see a fake they can know it. I have studied the real deal, I don’t need to look at the counterfeit book you promote.

      So, it seems you do not put much stake in the Bible. This is another difference between us. I understand that God is able to write His Word, and He did. He used people to do it and He kept it pure. You think that any finding has made the previously understood Bible obsolete? Not so, in fact the Dead Sea Scrolls simply showed how accurate the Bible had always been in translations. It showed God’s ability to ensure His Word is kept from putrification and alteration.

      Your lack of understanding and acceptance of deception has blinded you to the reality of, at least particular, truths of the Bible. You believe because you have studied and are resting upon this new book you have legs to stand on, but you don’t even accept the Word of God as infallible (according to your own words indicating that it was written by men and seems to have been infected). The Word of the Lord is right & true.

      Homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle my friend, but there is hope for all who are in any type of sinful lifestyle. You think I’m a bigot because I don’t accept homosexuality as alright, but I do not want people to live in sinful lifestyles because I want them to come to know the truth, to be set free from sin, and to be saved from the ramifications of it. You use the idea that some people used the Bible, incorrectly, to promote the thought that black people should be slaves or kept on a different plane than whites. Well, those people had various reasons: earlier on those who owned slaves wanted to keep them down to ensure they themselves were kept rich, later on they simply had a slanted view of blacks based upon a previously held bias against them. People had reasons to keep others down based upon bigotry, yes, but also because they wanted to keep someone else down to promote a cause to get them rich or for a reason that was selfish. True bigotry is selfish… but you, and many others, have redefined the people who you believe hold this perspective. If someone does not agree with a lifestyle they must be a bigot. That is ridiculous. First, where is the selfish motive? Why would I indicate that homosexuality is wrong if I did not believe it? Also, why would I believe it if after studying I found it to be incorrect? The truth is that it is wrong because the Word of God says so, and we can see it revealed through science and nature as confirmation.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Sojourn, I don't believe what you are saying. It just solidifies the cult behavior you and K12 seem to be so good at. I don't see anywhere the Brian has tried to spread fear into you to read his book. In fact that is not why he posted this hub. How condescending of you. What if you read it and it was correct? What if you stood a a bank and talked to the next person in line and then later found that he was gay? A bigger question and that has truly happened to someone that I know...he was totally against gays and then he had a gay son and struggled with loving him as a child and a person.....he learned to love unconditional........can you?

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      LG

      Unconditional love is not the issue here. Hanavee is trying to make scripture say something it doesn't. That is what we are discussing here. So, stop it with your venom.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      K12, that book we are talking about is a really well researched and scholarly explanation of the historical background to the scriptures.

      In it you will find clear answers to every criticism you have made.

      It sounds like you are a most uneducated man. Also it seems you preach to your congregation pretending you do so with knowledge.

      It is very clear that you are very ignorant and unwilling to learn anything beond your narrow selfish opinion.

      Maybe you have only learned to read a few verses of the bible parrot fas shion

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      K12 you cannot possibly know that Hanavee is trying to make scripture say something different, because you refuse the intellectual integrity to look at both sides of an argument in a dispassionate objective logical manner. If you want to have any credibility, you must:

      1) Put to one side what you have been told these scriptures mean.

      2) Examine in great detail exactly what it is Hanavee is getting at.

      3) Search out the meanings of the Hebrew and Greek terms used from multiple sources in the light of the cultural environment of the particular writers of those scriptures. Perhaps start with Jewish commentaries.

      All I see is you parroting what your pastor has told you and because he claims God told him so, you actually believe him!!! Above all the most stupid behaviour of the Church is that they believe without question what their "men of God" tell them. All a pastor has to do is speak in tongues, say some "powerful" prayers, cook up some spiritual sounding anecdotes, speak the party line, and claim God told them, and he has the church hanging on every word as if it proceeds from the very mouth of God. For increased effect, he just needs to get the worship leader to fabricate up "touching heaven" atmosphere till the congregation have hyped themselves up into an altered psychological frenzied state, get a few people to fall over and call it slain in the spirit.

      It's all emperors new clothes and the church is blind poor and naked.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      No head,

      I can read for myself what the scriptures say.

      Most preachers teach on hating the sin, but loving the sinner.

      I use biblos.com interlinear tools to look at the original text.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Laced with loving prejudice.......

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Jon,

      Homosexuals hate those that judge them, am I right? Most Christians love sinners. Have I called you any names? Have I stuck to you in any way? No.

      Yet, you call me homophobe, and ignorant and the like.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      For the Fundamentalists among us who think that the Bible is infallible, consider these points:

      None of the original manuscripts exist. All we have are copies that have been re-copied numerous times, all of them in various degrees of ruin and none of them complete.

      Gen 32:30 “…for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

      John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time…”

      Matt 19:26 “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

      Judges 1:19 “And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.”

      Mark 15:25 “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.”

      John 19:14-16 “…about the sixth hour…they cried out…crucify him….Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.”

      2 Kings 24:8 “Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months."

      2 Chronicles 36:9 “Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem…”

      2 Kings 8:26 “Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign…”

      2 Chronicles 22:2 “Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign…”

      2 Samuel 8:3-4 “David smote also Hadadezer…and took from him…seven hundred horsemen…”

      1 Chronicles 18:3-4 “David smote Hadarezer…and took from him…seven thousand horsemen…”

      1 Kings 4:26 “And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots…”

      2 Chronicles 9:25 “And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots…”

      Gen 2:17 “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

      Gen 5:5 “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.”

      James 1:13 “..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.”

      Gen 22:1 “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham…”

      Luke 23:46 “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”

      John 19:30 “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

      John 8:33 "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man. How sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"

      These are Jews speaking. Anyone want to say Egypt or Babylon?

      Okay, Fundies who say that the Bible is infallible, I am waiting for your explanations.

      By the way, God is infallible, not man. I worship God, I study my Bible, and I am careful of anything taught to me by men who say they speak for God.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      You said homosexuals hate those that judge them. I think if someone called you a murderer, that might make you dislike them, and that is one of the things you have called gays, among others, such as liars and thieves. You say that you have that right as a Christian, because you judge gays to be sinners. I think the quote that best sums this up is from Jesus, Himself. Matthew 7:1-2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged.

      For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

      Jesus did not ever condemn gays. He never said a single thing that could be misconstrued as such, yet you cloak your bigotries in "Just doing the work of Jesus." I don't think so, and I think you know so, too.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      "Hating the sin, but loving the sinner" is a perverse lie used by heterosexual bigots who want to change gays into their own heterosexual image (as if God is a heterosexual). This lie is a poison and resembles the lie Nazis told the Jews when they led them to the gas chambers and told the Jews that they were simply being taken to the showers.

      Self-righteous hypocrites, white-washed sepulchers filled with dead men's bones. You who so blithely use this perverse lie will answer to the Judge of all liars.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Disappearinghead,

      You got me to laughing on that one. You had to have been raised Pentecostal. Brought back some interesting memories for me, since I was raised in the Pentecostal faith. Your descriptions were spot on. Loved it.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      Actually, Hanavee is NOT trying to make the scripture say something it doesn't...you are.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      K12, if you and I were both in Uganda, where some of the poisonous nonsense part of christianity has been preached and adopted by some of the influential people, what would your relationship with me be like?

      Would you love me like Jesus loved Judas? How hard was that for Jesus do you think?

      Supposing you are required to hand me over for humiliation and possible execution, could I love you, do you think?

      This is the sort of scenario which takes all of our pointless argument into the reality of Life.

      In the debates of HubPages of course I don't hate you. If the chips were down and it was a toss up between your life and mine I could easily hate you - only human, let's face it.

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      K12 "I use biblos.com interlinear tools to look at the original text". If you had ever been to university or college you would know that you must never use a single source for studying; you must use multiple sources across a spectrum of views, otherwise you have not studied anything?

      Do you know who are behind bibles.com? Have you searched for their qualifications, church denomination, agenda they seek to promote?

      Have you ever bought an interlinear bible yourself? Have you ever looked up the words in multiple language translation websites? Have you ever read a Jewish commentary, studied Jewish theology, read what learned rabbis have to say?

      I put it to you that you have not studied because if you had you old critically read an opposing view with an objective open mind. Instead you have searched for meanings that tickle your ears.

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      Hanavee, yes I grew up in Penticostalism and still have family members brainwashed by the snake oil salesmen and charlatans.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      k12, you stated,

      "LG

      Unconditional love is not the issue here."

      I beg to differ here. If you don't know what love is then you cannot possibly love anyone--including yourself and if you cannot love yourself them you cannot love anyone or God for that matter. Unconditional love is loving everyone with no exceptions or judging. You can't do that and that is exactly what all this gay rights are about--equality and unconditional love. It is very sad that you and others are teaching something that Jesus was not a part of nor would he want to be.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      When you people go to the dentist, do they sharpen your teeth?

      I really believe all of you know exactly what scripture says about homosexuals. But, like scripture says, you've been given over to a reprobate mind. You have to deal with it.

      I can tell you I love, but you don't want to believe me. Instead I feel the hate coming from the dog pound that can't wait to sink some teeth into me.

      Saying the bible does not condemn homosexuality is like the Pope inviting Jerry Falwell to a bar mitzvah. It just doesn't work. YOU all know this.

      You can't put lipstick on a gorilla and expect Kate Upton.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 4 years ago from Ohio

      Hanavee, as someone who studies you should know there are entire books devoted to debunking supposed contradictions in the Bible. I glanced over some of what you posted and already began to understand why you may not think the Bible infallible, but also knew immediately answers to some of your 'contradictions'. Again, the Bible is infallible, but if you think that is not true this very hub post is a mystery... because, why indicate that the Bible is not condemning a lifestyle when you cannot be certain what the Bible is truly saying in the first place? It just makes no sense to me. Anyway, it is beginning (actually has appeared for a bit) to look like we are at an impasse.

      Jonny, I am interested in your thoughts on my response to you... not because I am waiting with a rebuttal, but am honestly curious what you think. Let me know. Thanks much!

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      "I glanced over some of what you posted......". But you were lasy and could not/did not want to be bothered with the rest of it.....

      Is that how you read your bible?

      You have made the impasse, not Hanavee.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      I wish I was as smart as Sojourner,

      You guys use scripture to support your notions, then rip scripture apart when it does not agree with these same notions.

      What you do very well is call us names :(

      But; we love you anyways, and no other group on the planet can say that. Yes, not everyone who claims to be a christian is, but a true born again, blood covered, bible loving member of the elect REALLY LOVES YOU. It's supernatural.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      This has nothing to do with our great little discussion here, but while we are going at it; I think we are forgetting how big our God is. A neat short video may help all of us.

      Peace

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtpTk2ENq7o

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Oh now it is my god is bigger than your god. You don't even know who god really is?

      You are so afraid to read his book and that amazes me because in Jesus he stated be not afraid. I think that I am done with this conversation because it is like beating a dead horse or taking him to water in which he won't drink. Have nice lives you all. Just remember Jesus told all of us to Love Thy Neighbors As Thyselves and Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do To You. I do hope at a point in your life very soo you will Get It and what those are saying to you and those whom you interact with.

      LOVE

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Your out in left field with this discussion. The things you write don't make any sense and is not even related to the topic.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      You can stop throwing your knives now. I am not listening nor am I reading this hub anymore. In my life you do NOT exist anymore. GET THAT!

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Visceral, hate, nonsense is all I hear.

      I hope you find love Lady G

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Lady G, you can take a horse to water but....... these " horses " must be getting hoarse with their preaching to the Converted.

      The world is full of the make-believe religious and I do understand where they are coming from. It is a most difficult and fear step to move back from religious indoctrination. A psychological phenomenon that is deeply implanted in their brains - partly voluntary, partly involuntary - so we cannot be too hard on them.

      We have moved back, fortunately and are able to see that infinitely bigger picture of our beautiful world. "They" are not able to. There are none so blind as those who chose not to see.

      Let it rest there. The world is big enough for us to co-exist, providing "they" do indeed live the love which they preach.

    • profile image

      Justin Today 4 years ago from Northeast PA

      The New American Bible uses direct translations of the Hebrew and Greek. Here are two relevant verses, I Corinthians 6:9 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites” and I Timothy 1:10 “the unchaste, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching”. The Greek word translated as sodomites is arsevenokoitai which is literally male bed partners according to Word Study Greek English New Testament (Tyndale House Publishers 1999). It is disingenuous to say that the word homosexuality did not exist in the Bible. No amount of Orwellian logic can change the meaning of the original word. It is also quite unfair to demonize people as haters and bigots for simply telling the truth. We judge actions not people. In the past 30 years, people with same sex attraction have gone from asking for tolerance to demanding endorsement of their activity. White is true they do not choose their proclivity, they can choose to not act on it. Heterosexuals also have urges we need to control especially if we are Christians. God gave us a higher mind and free will to choose the good or not.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      That was well said, I appreciate your commit.

    • profile image

      Justin Today 4 years ago from Northeast PA

      Thank You Kiss and Tales.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Justin Today,

      You wrote: "The New American Bible uses direct translations of the Hebrew and Greek."

      After reading what you wrote, I can see that this false assumption of yours is not backed up by scholarly research, or even a rudimentary knowledge of Koine Greek, because if you had studied Greek at any university, you would know what a major blunder you just committed.

      You say that The New American Bible uses "direct" translations from the Hebrew and Greek? Let's point out your error.

      You wrote: "Here are two relevant verses, I Corinthians 6:9 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites” and I Timothy 1:10 “the unchaste, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching”. The Greek word translated as sodomites is arsevenokoitai which is literally male bed partners according to Word Study Greek English New Testament (Tyndale House Publishers 1999)."

      First of all, you misspelled arsenokoitai. Secondly, here are the two verses that you totally misunderstood in the original language:

      Ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι θεοῦ βασιλείαν οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται

      πόρνοις ἀρσενοκοίταις ἀνδραποδισταῖς ψεύσταις ἐπιόρκοις, καὶ εἴ τι ἕτερον τῇ ὑγιαινούση διδασκαλίᾳ ἀντίκειται

      I know that you cannot point out to me which word is translated as homosexual, or sodomite, because it is obvious that you do not know Greek, so I am going to do you a favor and translate for you.

      μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται is a phrase, pronounced malakoi oute arsenokoitai. It means only one thing. It does not say "sodomite." That is a fact. And here is the other fact: it refers to the temple worship practice of sexual rituals in which the male temple prostitutes would be anally penetrated by men who came to worship in that same temple. Male and female temple prostitutes served as the image of the goddess consort, and were not permitted to be penetrated in such a way as to make the females pregnant, so anal sex was the common method. Paul railed against this custom for many reasons, one of which was the very public display of the male sex organs, considered extremely offensive to Paul's Jewish upbringing. The term malokoi refers to the effeminate boys who were the temple prostitutes (considered soft, or effeminate, because they were - they had to resemble the goddess), and the arsenokoitai, which was a term that Paul coined out of contempt for the "men who bedded" these malakoi during the temple sex rituals. Men in that time and culture had male lovers, as well as wives who were there to maintain the household. They saw no contradiction in any of this, and you would do well to study their culture and history before you comment, blindly applying the 21st Century to the 1st Century.

      You wrote: "It is disingenuous to say that the word homosexuality did not exist in the Bible. No amount of Orwellian logic can change the meaning of the original word."

      No, actually it is ignorant to insert the word homosexual anywhere in the Bible, since the term did not exist until A.D. 1869, and the delineation of such sexual orientation did not come about until centuries after Christ. You keep saying "the original word." Please show me your scholarly basis for constantly saying this. You must have more than this silly rant you posted above, so fire away. I am all ears.

      You wrote: " It is also quite unfair to demonize people as haters and bigots for simply telling the truth."

      No, you get demonized for intentionally mistranslating and misrepresenting the Bible to bring sorrow, suffering and pain into the lives of those who are simply different from yourselves. When one single gay person commits suicide because of the horrible suffering brought on by your blind bigotry, you deserve the judgment of God, and I truly believe that it will come.

      You wrote: " We judge actions not people."

      Who set you up as Judge? The Bible condemns what you are doing!

      You wrote: " In the past 30 years, people with same sex attraction have gone from asking for tolerance to demanding endorsement of their activity. "

      Bigots persecuted Blacks for wanting civil rights, and they blamed their bigotries on the Bible. Gays are no less equal, human and deserving of the same rights that you have in this world! And, yes, you can expect they are going to fight for that right.

      You wrote (and this is absurd): "While is true they do not choose their proclivity, they can choose to not act on it."

      This statement is so absurd, I will only say that God made homosexuals just as much as He made heterosexuals, and He gave no one the right to prevent the other from being whole.

      If you are going to try to pass yourself off as a scholar, you are going to have to do a lot better than this slop you threw on here. I have very little patience for bigotry, as you will soon find, and I have even less for those who preach hate in the name of the God I serve!

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      False. What you keep being asked is to simply use proper exegesis. Go back to the original language as is done in the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality." Every statement in that book is backed by proper comparison in the original languages of the Bible. Why don't you read it so you can see what education you are railing against? You are refusing to read it, because you are afraid that it will say what you cannot stand and prove what you do not want to believe. So you heap unto yourself teachers of bigotry, having itching ears for their lies.

      You make the most absurd statement when you say that we use scripture to support our notions, then rip scripture apart when it does not agree with these same notions. False, very false! Every passage that I have posted has been shown respectfully in the original with its correct translation. Or are you simply not reading?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Sojourner,

      Debunking supposed contradictions? Well then, bring them on. So easy to make a false claim, even more difficult to back it up. That is the problem with laziness that tries to pass itself off as scholarliness. You claim that there are entire books devoted to debunking supposed contradictions in the Bible? Okay, start quoting. You absolutely have not proven your point, or am I supposed to go running in fear because you say "there are books?"

      Is that like saying "Boo!"?

      God is infallible, man is not. Men wrote the books that were collected to form the current Bible. Do you ever wonder why the Catholic version has more books? The King James only has 66. Count the extra books in the Douay version. Please explain this to me if God wrote all of them.

      The only impasse that I see is your blindness to the pain and suffering that people like you have brought on this world from your total desire to make everyone else a carbon copy of your heterosexual self.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      From the Catholic Church:

      With the end of the Nazis, one would think that the world would have striven to cleanse itself of ignorance, prejudice and hate, and all things that contribute to such, but as recently as1997, Pope John Paul II released the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which essentially defines the Church position on all things, and this document stated, with regard to homosexuality, that “homosexual persons are called to chastity.” The Catechism recognized that it would be hard for homosexuals, a “trial” as it was called, and that through “self-mastery” and “prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.” I find it so ironic that after centuries of opportunities to find the truth, the Catholic Church continues to rely on misinterpretation and centuries of a continuously evolving ignorance to state their reasons:

      “Sacred Scripture condemns homosexual acts “as a serious depravity . . . (cf.:24-27; Cor 6:10; Tim1:10). This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. This same moral judgment is found in many Christian writers of the first centuries and is unanimously accepted by Catholic Tradition.”

      Why misinterpret Scripture deliberately when so many qualified historians and theologians could tell, and have told, them differently. Why cling to error? Because this Church is blind!

      In July of 2003, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith then issued a letter to the bishops of the Catholic Church, and it dealt with “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons.” The Catholic Church urged all bishops to fight against any legislation that would give civil rights to homosexuals. To quote from the foreword of that document:

      “Some Considerations Concerning the Catholic Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons”

      “Recently, legislation had been proposed in some American states which would make discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation illegal. In some Italian cities, municipal authorities have made public housing available to homosexual (and unmarried heterosexual) couples. Such initiatives, even where they seem more directed toward support of basic civil rights than condonement of homosexual activity or a homosexual lifestyle, may in fact have a negative impact on the family and society. Such things as the adoption of children, the hiring and firing of teachers, the housing needs of genuine families, landlords’ legitimate concerns in screening potential tenants, for example, are often implicated.

      While it would be impossible to foresee and respond to every eventuality in respect to legislative proposals in this area, these observations will try to identify some principles and distinctions of a general nature which should be taken into consideration by the conscientious Catholic legislator, voter, or Church authority who is confronted with such issues.

      The first section will recall relevant passages from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s ‘Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Person’ of 1986. The second section will deal with the applications.”

      Pretty appalling. And of course, the Catholic Church justifies its actions on its incorrect interpretation of Paul’s writings and, I quote, “The Church has the responsibility to promote the public morality of the entire civil society on the basis of fundamental moral values . . .” The entire civil society? Scary stuff!

      There was a time in history when the Church could not face the story of the Virgin Mary being impregnated by normal means, so they taught that God impregnated her through her ear, and, lest her “parts of shame” be brought into the discussion, Jesus emerged through her navel.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      The Emperor Hadrian was the third of the “Five Good Emperors,” so named because, in the words of the historian, Machiavelli:

      “From the study of this history we may also learn how a good government is to be established; for while all the emperors who succeeded to the throne by birth, except Titus, were bad, all were good who succeeded by adoption; as in the case of the five from Nerva to Marcus. But so soon as the empire fell once more to the heirs by birth, its ruin recommenced.”

      Machiavelli said that these emperors were so loved by their citizenry, that they had no need of praetorian guards to protect them:

      “Titus, Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus, and Marcus had no need of praetorian cohorts, or of countless legions to guard them, but were defended by their own good lives, the good-will of their subjects, and the attachment of the senate.”

      From Emperor Nerva to Emperor Marcus, there was good government by five very popular rulers. Now, while we could spend countless pages extolling the virtues of the rule of Emperor Hadrian, who ruled from A.D. 117-138, there are only several things that I want to point out. Many of the Roman emperors were bisexual or homosexual. In fact, Nerva, Trajan and Hadrian were completely homosexual. Hadrian’s lover was the handsome young man named Antinous. Tragically, Antinous drowned in the river Nile, and Hadrian grieved greatly. Such was Hadrian’s love for, and devotion to, Antinous that he had him deified and named a city after him, Antinopolis. The point of all of this is that Hadrian’s sexual orientation was well-known and accepted by everyone. It was a non-item for the people who loved this emperor. But, something that is a lesson lost on so many Christians is that Hadrian ruled at a time when Christianity was still being persecuted, a practice begun under Nero. Now, what would modern-day Christians think if the President of the United States was homosexual and had a young male as his lover? Doesn't take much imagination. Yet, here is what Hadrian, a homosexual emperor, had to say about this persecution of the Christians. Taken from his letter to a governor in Asia Minor:

      “Neither shall the innocent be troubled, nor shall slanderous informers have an occasion of enriching themselves. If our subjects in the provinces have proofs for their proceedings against the Christians, so that an ordinary court may be held, I am not opposed to them doing so. But I do not permit them thereby to rely only on idle talk. Because it is much more just that you, if anyone wants to bring action against the Christians, legally investigate what they are accused of. Therefore, if someone proves that the said people do something illegal, then you will punish them according to their offence; on the other side, by Hercules, you shall take care to proceed with severe punishment, according to his atrocious behaviour, against him who somehow brings action against Christians only to slander them.”

      Hadrian issues a harsh warning (by Hercules!) that those who falsely accuse the Christians are to be severely punished. Here is a homosexual defending and protecting the Christians, and he is not even a Christian, himself! Here is a man using his power and authority to stand against slander, ignorance and bigotry, an example the Church should emulate! Who would think that centuries of corruption of true Christianity would produce a version that, if Hadrian were alive today, these same people he was protecting would be stripping him of his human and civil rights?

      Homosexual relationships were still considered normal, virtuous and accepted at this time in history, a condition that existed in the time of Jesus, as well. The Lord knew homosexuals, bisexuals, heterosexuals, and He never spoke against sexual orientation of any kind. Years later, as the religion of Christ became a negative, an illegality, here was the emperor Hadrian, a homosexual, defending the rights of these people, the Christians, to live un-troubled like any other legal citizen, to enjoy the equal rights all citizens enjoyed. And look what the Church did with those equal rights. While the U.S. Constitution guarantees all citizens of this country equal rights, somehow the Church founded on Jesus has become so corrupted that it cannot see the need to extend these same rights to those outside of its private club for heterosexuals. What hypocrisy! Hadrian sets a better example to follow. Shame on those Christians who do not want to understand this.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Some of you wonder why I can seem, at times, very harsh with various ones who post their anti-homosexual bigotry here. It is quite simple - I want them to feel some of what they are handing out on a daily basis, to have it handed back to them, to feel what it is like to experience what they do to others who are different from themselves. They spend their entire days surrounded by like-minded, anti-gay people who agree with them, and thus emboldened, they go through each day punching and kicking those who are different and expecting those that they are harming to simply endure the pain and suffering...because they have a god-given right to harm others. And when they come here and are challenged for their wrongs, they get all upset and whine and wail. Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot, it is "unfair."

      Bigots come on here throwing around haughty challenges, arrogant condescensions and self-righteous pontifications, and they never stop to ask how damaging their actions have been on this Earth. When gays have been burned at the stake, burned in their homes while they were in them, hung up by ropes and tortured, cast out of their homes and disowned by their families, exiled, stoned, mocked, persecuted, jailed, drowned, castrated, and other tortures too numerous to list here, the source of all of that was the Church and its followers. Acting with total disregard to the sanctity of life that God gave all of His children, these bigots have acted as if they were gods, declaring as unworthy of life all who dared to be different from them, as if only their image was pure, and all others were damaged goods to be done away with.

      I have studied the suffering of gays, suffering that began in the 4th Century and has continued to this day, suffering that was not in existence in the days of Jesus Christ, persecution that was never ordered by Him, and of such evil actions even Jesus spoke out and condemned.

      I cannot stand idly by while gays are persecuted, tortured and killed by the very people who are supposed to uphold the teachings of the Man they say they follow - Jesus Christ. My Lord and Savior did not die for bigots to remain unrepentant of their hate, and He left these words for them - "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity. I know ye not!"

      I will not sugar-coat my sermons. I will not spare their feelings. They have been the authors of hate, and they will meet the author of their fate at the Judgment. Until then, I will fight for the rights of all of God's people to live in freedom and peace, and if the homophobes think that they can separate God's gay children from His love, I have news for them.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Even from within my limited knowledge, Amen and thank you for putting every point so clearly.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      jonnycomelately,

      Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. I am here for the long haul. The homophobes may rant and rail, but I am not leaving. I came here to discuss the subject of the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," so that those gays who are still living in fear, still denying themselves the right to be happy and who still think that God hates them can finally understand that they are just as much loved by God as anyone else. Gays are not flawed, damaged humans, but fully-valued individuals created with the same love and care by God as all others who grace this planet. God has a purpose for all of us, not just some of us.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      You know Hanavee; we've not talked about Judges 19, and I'm surprised I've missed it.

      A section describes a group of troublesome homosexuals who want to know (have sex) with this traveler who is lodging.

      Judges 19:22b """"“Bring out the man who came into your house, THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM” 23 And the man, the master of the house, went out to them and said to them, “No, my brothers, DO NOT act so WICKEDLY; since this man has come into my house, DO NOT DO THIS VILE THING"""""

      You can't twist this one dude.

    • profile image

      graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      k12rswow- You can sure bet Hanavee will find a way to twist it, because he wants too.

    • profile image

      graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      k12rswow- You can sure bet Hanavee will find a way to twist it, because he wants too.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      You individuals are mentioned in that book but don't suppose you have the education to be able to read it.

      When you are in church this coming Sunday, just give a thought to why that crowd of people laughed at a weird individual being hung up on a cross.

      Where would each of you been standing? Would you have understood what he was preaching?

      You are no better than the people in that crowd. Do you want to be better?

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Jon,

      You remind me of Lady G being in left field. Let me re-focus you.

      Jon:

      """"You individuals are mentioned in that book but don't suppose you have the education to be able to read it.""""""

      K12:

      This is a ad hominem attack, not very christlike. I am University educated, and I am not going to read Hanavee's book. 1. I get the gist of the argument. 2. I'm not wasting my money.

      Jon:

      """"When you are in church this coming Sunday, just give a thought to why that crowd of people laughed at a weird individual being hung up on a cross.""""

      K12:

      I know full well that my own sin was nailed to that cross, but I have a big God who forgave me. If he shows the ultimate in forgiveness, I can too.

      Jon:

      """"You are no better than the people in that crowd. Do you want to be better?""""

      K12:

      You are absolutely right, that is why I chose Jesus. But; remember I've not called you and Hanavee any names, I've not dogged you for being gay. Havavee made a direct assertion in this book, and we simple argued it. No more.

    • profile image

      graceinus 4 years ago from those of the Ekklesia

      jonnycomelatly- the way I see it you jumped into this Hub just to stir up trouble. You could care less about the real christian side of this issue. You think christians (gay or not) are a lowest from of life anyway. And therefore could careless about how the final outcome of this Hub turns out. As for Hanavee, he has , since the ever start of this Hub, addressed those who oppose his views a bigots, racist and a few other things based solely on the fact that we do not agree with his view. Some "christian" he turns out to be. I wonder if he were to get stopped by a police offer for speeding , if he would call a police officer a bigot and racist when a police officer hands him a ticket. It very clear to me that we "Christians" are hate by Hanavee if we don't accept his views. If you were to review each comment from Hanavee where he replies to those who oppose him , he refers to them as bigots and racist or some other name calling. Even I oppose his views. And his follow up comment was that I was a bigot and racist. I could care less about the book he keeps trying to push on to people. As if that book contains the true meaning and understanding of what the bible says when it come to the subject of gay people.. And why do I care less, because the main subject contained in the bible and the most important subject in the bible is not about sin, or love, or hate or the Nation of Israel or the 144,000 or the raptrue or the end of the world or the devil or who is christian and who isn't. The bible main subject, if you were to pay attention, is about the KINGDOM OF GOD. Everything else in the bible is just who, what, when, where and how.

      People like yourself and Hanavee will never understand what I mean when it comes to the Kingdom of God. People like you and Hanavee focus your attention on nit pick things like how gays are treated by "so called christians". Hanavee could reach far more people if he would just focus his attention on God's Kingdom first, and with the knowledge and understanding of it he could help spread the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to ALL people. But no, you and Hanavee are too busy nit picking and mud slinging just like the rest of man made "christian" churches.

      P.S. And for your information I don't go to "church."

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      In Sodom, on the night in question, once Lot took the men to his house, word went around the city that Lot had strangers in his home, and the men of the city showed their wickedness. Instead of showing the required hospitality to someone stranded in the desert at night, they wanted to do the exact opposite. They wanted to so humiliate these visitors that they would never dare set foot in Sodom again. “How odd!”, we might wonder. Why would people be so cruel? (We might ask that of people today who are anti-gay. Where did such intolerance come from? Certainly not from God.) In light of further study, we find that the men of Sodom wanted these strangers to take back a warning to the enemies of Sodom, to let the known world hear that the men of Sodom were fierce warriors, and woe be to the stranger who tried to attack them ever again. The men of Sodom were intent on building a reputation that traveled far and wide, one that would help prevent their ever being attacked and conquered again.

      In Genesis 14, the Bible tells us that the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as the other cities in the valley, had been taken captive and held in slavery until Lot’s uncle, Abraham, came and rescued them. So, what had begun as a defensive attitude had apparently degenerated into a custom of automatic and extreme cruelty, and the men of Sodom were going to make an example of these non-residents. Surrounding Lot’s house, they demanded that Lot send the visitors out to them.

      The word used here is to “know” them, send them out “so that we may know them,” and this has been interpreted by some to mean, “Send these men out so that we may have sex with them.” From this cultural misinterpretation, people have built centuries of anti-gay prejudice and hatred. It is here that all preachers who preach against gays go into long and torturous efforts to paint these men of Sodom as homosexuals who were out to have sexual pleasure with the angels who are visiting Lot’s house. The biblical account says that the entire male population surrounded Lot’s house, to the very last man and boy in the city. Realize, of course, that none of these cities had a very large population. A conservative estimate of the entire population of the city, male and female, would be less than one thousand people. Bear in mind here that Abraham rescued all of the captive inhabitants of these five cities by using only 318 men:

      Genesis 14:14 “And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.”

      Nonetheless, never in the history of mankind has there ever been a city that was composed entirely of homosexuals. It would be biologically impossible to maintain such a city for long, since they would die off from lack of reproduction.

      Sodom was not a homosexual city. It was heterosexual.

      There are some very interesting points in this story, ones that most preachers gloss over, or mumble, or don’t read at all. My favorite? That Lot, in an effort to quell the mob, offers them his two virgin daughters for a night of debauchery. It does not take a scholar to translate what Lot says.

      Genesis 19:8 “Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes; only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.”

      Here we see the phrase “to know” again, a phrase that often is used to mean “sexual relations.” The men said that they wanted “to know” the strangers, and Lot offered the men the opportunity “to know” his daughters, instead. Interesting! A lot of getting to know each other.

      Lot clearly tells the men that his two daughters are virgins, and he then invites the men to take these two daughters and use them in any way that they want for the entire evening . . . just don’t bring any harm to the two visitors who are his guests. What an example for a patriarch! Telling neighbors to have sex with his two young daughters! I have listened as preachers tried to explain away this moral problem by saying that Lot was merely bluffing, trying to shame the homosexuals. What a stretch! The truth of the matter is that Lot was indeed offering his two virgin daughters for the sexual pleasure and entertainment of the men of the city. Since women were not considered the equals of men at that time and in that culture, Lot’s offer was not unusual. Remember, too, that Lot is considered righteous, so much so that he is saved from the destruction. Something to think about, isn't it? If we are supposed to follow his example as a model for morality in our present time in history, I know a lot of Christians who would be upset with any person who would suggest borrowing their daughters for the evening.

      One cannot wiggle out of this contradiction. Either some religious beliefs change with time, or nothing changes with time. Understanding cultural values relevant to a particular time in history is important if one is going to properly translate the Bible, for, as simple as this sounds, the Bible was not written in our present age. It does not reflect our current society, but the societies of various ages down through history.

      So, what did the men of Sodom who had gathered at Lot’s door want to do with the two visitors who were Lot’s guests? This question is at the heart of many a debate on this subject, and for most, the argument hinges on the correct interpretation of the word “know.” In the original text, the word in Hebrew is ידע "yada," which simply means “to know.” Whether this can be interpreted to mean “to have sex with someone” in all instances is an ongoing debate, but one thing is for certain—the men of the city were obviously intending to mistreat the visitors, because the person closest to knowing what this word meant in that time and era took it to mean something harmful. Lot’s actions to protect his visitor guests show that the men of this city were a lot like the men of the old wild west in America, possibly worse. Further proof that they intended to do the visitors harm is shown by the fact that the men of Sodom quickly lost patience with Lot and told him to get out of the way, they were coming in. According to the story, the angels rescued Lot from the angry mob by pulling him inside the house, at which point they then struck the mob blind. One thing is for sure—the word “to know” cannot mean one thing for what the men of Sodom were going to do to the angels, and completely something else when it came to the two virgin daughters of Lot. It is apparent that the intention of the men who gathered at Lot’s house was to sexually humiliate the two angels, a barbaric tactic that is still used in the Middle East today. We need only look at the incredible number of cases of heterosexual males raping male prisoners during the Bosnian war to permanently humiliate them, cases that were brought before the War Crimes Tribunal, and we see exactly what was going on in the story of Sodom on the night in question.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Ah! So you don't go to church! From that it would seem you are a "free-lancer," that dreams up you own religion. You also dream up everything in life to fit the picture you want to believe in.

      Your ability to write is not brilliant; your ability to read is probably on a similar level, that is why you don't want to read a well researched and knowledgable book about history.

      Worship what you wish. It's your free choice. It's only in your mind.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      I never twist anything. I merely translate properly. Bigots twist and misinterpret, because they cannot handle the truth. I can handle the truth, which is why I study.

      The story related in Judges 19 is the exact copy of the story of the event that happened in Sodom on the night the two angels visited the house of Lot. Anyone who has studied the practice of heterosexual males raping other males as a method of psychological warfare knows that this is a practice that goes back thousands of years and is still used today. If you do not know this, then educate yourself. This is fact, not hearsay, and if want to know what you are talking about, the Bible admonishes us all to study.

      The story in Judges mimics the story of Lot in Genesis, even to the point of reinforcing our understanding of how women were treated in that culture - equal to cattle. So, when the concubine is thrown to the men, they sexually abuse her all night. Funny how you left that part out, k12! Let's look at that.

      Custom in that time and part of the world dictated that any stranger wandering into your city at the setting of the sun was to be invited into your house as an honored guest for the evening. This was moral law. Note, Judges 19:15 "...he sat him down in a street of the city: for there was no man that took them into his house to lodging."

      This was considered "inhospitable," the "sin of Sodom," according to Ezekiel.

      The moral code required that the first person to see a stranger in their city at the setting of the sun was required to offer lodging and food for the evening. Note Judges 19:16 "And, behold, there came an old man from his work out of the field at even..." Note the time of day, "even" or the setting of the sun. The required act of hospitality would therefore go to this old man coming from the field.

      So, the old man brings the Levite and his concubine into his house for the evening, and strangely enough, the men of this city decide to show the same hostility as the men of Sodom did. Go figure!

      The similarities continue. The men of the city beat on the door of the house demanding that the old man bring his strangers outside so that they can "know" them, same "yada," as I wrote in the other post here about Sodom. Nearly the same results as the Sodom story. Instead of sending out the male Levite, the man of the house offers them his daughter and the concubine of the visiting Levite. This time, however, the men decide to enjoy the concubine and ignore the Levite. (Strange! I thought you said they were homosexuals?) The next morning, she is totally ruined by what the men have done to her (Homosexuals? Not likely!). "..and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning..." Men sexually abusing a woman is homosexual? You were calling these men homosexuals, right? I mean, that's what you wrote! I love your scholarly approach to these things.

      The story has a funny ending that you left out. When the Levite got home with his concubine (verse 29) "... he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her unto all the coasts of Israel."

      Just more examples of heterosexuals having fun?

      You are dealing with a Middle Eastern culture in the time before Christ, and you are transposing your values from the 21st century on them, and you don't even have any idea of what those ancient cultural values were. Some of them still exist in the Middle East today - lack of respect for women and heterosexual rape of males to mentally destroy them, since any male who has been anally penetrated in that culture is forever lower than a female. And if you wonder what that means, go back to the first part about what they think of women there.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12,

      You keep saying that you have not called gays any names, yet you called them murderers.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Graceinus,

      According to Jesus, the main message of the Bible should be two things: to love God with all our minds and hearts, and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      Well K12? Hanavee has eloquently demolished your homophobe use of Judges 19, and not one twist of scripture either. You say you are university educated; I don't believe you. A university education trains people in how to dispassionately and objectively search for facts from multiple sources, ignore supposition and preconception, to present an argument logically and intelligently. You have done none of these things. The fact that in Judges 19 you wilfully ignored what actually happened in the story (gayboys raping a young girl? Get real), belies your claims of being educated.

      You have already made up your mind about your position and because of fear you will not entertain reading a source that contradicts your view. This is not what we would expect from an educated person; it speaks of wilful ignorance.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      Hanavee. It is funny you say the word "Know" them when speaking about the men with Lot has been mis-intepreted. This is not so. You claim to have studied it but I beg to differ. That word is used several times in the bible and it is always referring to sex. The bible said David did not "know" her. i.e his maid servant just before he died. The bible says Joseph did not yet "know" Mary (i.e before christ was born).

      I do not hate gays. I just know it is un natural and nothing in Gods laws goes against nature. This is the same reason why we debunk Evolution yet accept natural selection.

      You claim to be a researcher then let us speak. I have three masters degrees. Two of them are in research. You have not researched this well.

      I would love to correct some of the things you say here but do not have the time and besides I am convinced you are on a journey and will soon arrive at the inevitable truth. I pray that the good lord grants you long life that you may find that which you seek before time is up.

      With regards to gay bashing. God gave man a right to judge/discern but not to exact judgement. This was a privilege reserved for the judges only in the bible. Thats was what was meant when they said an eye for an eye. It was not a mandate to everyone but only a selected few to ensure justice.

      I do not support their sexual choice but I do not hate. Salvation was promised to All who accept God. I am not greater than my master.

      God does not support being gay nor does he accept it. Do not twist the bible and claim research. Evolution is also claimed to be a well researched theory yet it goes against the bible in significant ways. Does this make it true or just a persons view on the issue?

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Daniel Prideland, if you have 3 masters degrees, that is 3 more than I have. What is the third one? Religious Bias?

      For a homosexual couple, whatever they choose to do between themselves is none of your business, whether you would regard it as natural or not.

      As for any judgment you make, you are not worthy to make it. Clean up your own life, especially any secret desires you might have (no one else knows about them) before casting the first stone.

      This has nothing to do with university degrees and nothing to do with any god. It's just a human responsibility for you, me and everyone.

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      Daniel. You claim 3 university degrees, two in research. How then do you not apply that principle here? You have been told that God hates homosexuality and do not wish to question this. If you did, you would read sources that opposed your views, and make a balanced logical judgement.

      With regards to "know, of course this means sex. The baying mob wished to degrade Lot's visitors via the medium of sex. Were they gay? Lot was acquainted with them and if he supposed they were gay, why offer his daughters? Are male prisoners who rape other male inmates gay? Or do you think perhaps they are hetrosexual, but in the absence of women and the presence of testosterone they are content to satisfy their sexual urges by gaining control over a male victim with all the sense of power they gain from humiliating another?

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Havenee, I don’t want to derail your comments or your hub, but I let someone do something to me and this hub for too long. I didn’t mean to quit on you like that. I need to speak my mind on this and stop letting others walk all over me and a few others and you too. I left because of respect for you, something these people don’t know anything about. Thanks for letting me speak.

      K12 and other like you,

      Why did you choose to bear false witness against me? Do you not know that this is the war that you want to be treated as says in the Bible by Jesus? You are being trained to go against the commandments set by Moses and also those set by Jesus. You scream that you are being called names and that you call everyone haters but I will show you why I am calling you a LIAR.

      1.) You tell me that I am angry. That was a huge LIE.

      2.) You tell me that I spread hate in my messages. That is LIE

      3.) You wish me peace. It is a LIE because you have string attached to that in hopes that I will be more agreeable with your stance.

      4.) You said that my messages are confusing. That is BS and also a LIE.

      5.) You told me that you wished for me to find love. That is a LIE and you are breaking the commandment of bearing false witness.

      All this is what you have tried to feed me and I am not going to take it anymore. You are a LIAR and you just reaped what you have sown.

      Religion teaches people how to lie. Yes it does and there is no getting around it. You break the first commandment about having no other God’s before you. When you put yourself on a pedestal and above others and then you become Holier Than Thou, guess what…You put your EGO above others. That is putting your God before others and before the God which is within you.

      I bowed out of the conversation because you and others like you were twisting my words around and hijacking Havanee’s hub about his book. It is HIS book that we are discussing, not my belief system or who you pump yourself up to look like something that you are not. That would be putting you on that pedestal and making yourself look and be Holier Than Thou.

      Now addressing the facts that I laid before you.

      I am a minister, but I do not profess to know the whole truth, only that which is shown to me. I do NOT put myself on a pedestal such as most clergy do. I read history and other sources that which have truth in them so that I can spread that. I do NOT spread Hate and I am NOT a hater, such as yourselves. You do NOT know me, but you profess that you do by your lies. I may be angry now, but I was not when you kept feeding me lies that I was. Know they enemy and they become not they enemy. You don’t know me nor do you know Havenee or anyone else here. The church puts feat into you and you therefore spread it by not knowing the enemy and then that makes you a LIAR in front of your own God…ah…your EGO.

      My words are not Hate. You said that I am confusing and that you cannot make out what I am saying. That is BS and a big LIE else you would not have commented back.

      Peace, you want me to have peace? How can I have the kind of peace that you are talking about? I don’t want your tainted kind of peace. I have my own and it doesn’t include you.

      Here is the last one…You wish for me to find LOVE. I have love and I know love and what makes you so superior to say such a thing to me like that? Really, I do know what love is and you don’t. I am married, have 2 daughters and 2 grandchildren, 6 cats, and dog. Nothing better than that! That is unconditional love. So don’t go judging me on things that you have no idea about. Judge not lest you be judged.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Oh this durned spell check thinks it knows what word that I want to use...."Know they enemy " is supposed to by thy and this happens all the time with this word.

      "The church puts feat into you and you therefore ..." feat is supposed to be feed.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Judges,

      """" Funny how you left that part out, k12! Let's look at that."""""

      When I wrote it, I knew you or head would point that out. Which proves to me that you want to re-focus that very strong point that I put in bold text.

      Yes, they abused her to the point of death, but they wanted sex with the man who was traveling. So, their homosexual intentions were called WICKED.

      Argue this point with me Hanavee.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      K!@ you are so full of yourself that you cannot listen to even the words of Jesus. You are one sick dude.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      The bible says for a man to lie with a man as if a woman is an abomination. This is not centred on being gay but the act itself. It no different from thou shall not murder. It is not only a law when you are a serial killer. Its is a law unto itself and it stands alone.

      When I talk about homosexuality. I am not talking about a sexual condition. I am talking about the act. If a person will fully goes into this, it is not my place to condemn them but it is my place to stand up and say NO, my religion does not accept this. This are topics not raised in similar religions like islam as its is pretty cut and dry.

      It is fine to have a belief in something but your belief does not make it the truth. The topic if I may stick to it says. THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONDEMN HOMOSEXUALITY. This is not true. The bible does and strongly so. The bible condemns a man marrying more than one wife, even though many people did (e.g Abraham, David and Solomon). The bible condemns sex outside of marriage be it man or woman and also importantly sex with someone else inside of marriage.

      Johncomelately. You said it is none of my business what a homosexual couple chose to do. I agree it really isnt but it becomes my business when they address the church. If you stay outside of the church then to be honest "anything is acceptable and not morally wrong". Morality is defined by society in such circumstances but when you claim to be part of the church of GOD. One I am a member of then it is my business.

      Do not be deceived. I do not say you are condemned. I am just correcting the fact that it is a sin according to the bible. It is not acceptable according to the bible but that being said "eternal life" was promised to ALL. I cannot condemn because as long as there is life in the body then there is hope.

      If you chose to do this outside of the church then I have no quarrel with you and only wish you well. I can love the sinner but I do not have to love the act.

      Also on the case of judgement if you bring it into the church then I leave you with this reminder

      1 Corinthians 6:2-4

      New International Version (NIV)

      2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church?

      NB: I do not condemn anyone and as a matter of fact my best man at my wedding is (not was) gay. Do not confuse the story of casting the first stone. The woman/prostitute was a sinner hence the reason was Jesus said "Go and sin no more". They were allowed to know the truth just not to cast her to death. The truth is that it is a sin but I am not the one that will cast anyone to death as God is sufficient to exact judgement on the world.

      Also with regard to masters degrees. Dont be silly and insulting. Keep your comments sane and direct it like a mature person is speaking.

      I cannot pass judgement because I was not justified by works but by faith and that faith was credited to me as righteousness. However I can still say that the law gives us knowledge of sin and homo sexuality is in fact considered a sin in the bible.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel Prideland,

      Your post really caused me to chuckle. For a man who supposedly has so many degrees, what a comedy of errors your post was.

      You wrote: "Hanavee. It is funny you say the word "Know" them when speaking about the men with Lot has been mis-intepreted. This is not so. You claim to have studied it but I beg to differ. That word is used several times in the bible and it is always referring to sex."

      It is always referring to sex? Hmmm? Let's look at just one example out of thousands available - Exodus 33:13 "Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may KNOW (yada) thee..." Moses talking to God. I like your multi-degreed, scholarly approach. So, in your very educated opinion, this means that Moses is soliciting sex with God. Wow! Very interesting, since you said that the word "to know" ALWAYS means "to have sex." You want to dig yourself out of that one?

      You wrote: "I do not hate gays. I just know it is un natural and nothing in Gods laws goes against nature. "

      Goes against Nature? Really? Your multi-degreed wit tells you that, does it? Have you ever done any research, I mean outside of trying to earn those online, Bible-school mastery certificates? If you really knew what you were talking about, you would know that science has proven for centuries that homosexuality exists in nature consistently. Why don't you do yourself a favor and just Google the words "homosexuality in Nature." Then read some of the peer-reviewed studies on albatrosses, for example. Various forms of same-sex sexual activity have been recorded in more than 450 different species of animals by now, from flamingos to bison to beetles to guppies to warthogs. You really need to study before you come here. You are embarrassing yourself (and your spelling doesn't really speak well of a Masters Degree.).

      You wrote: "This is the same reason why we debunk Evolution yet accept natural selection."

      When you say "we," don't include the educated, please.

      Now this is where you really cracked me up. You wrote: "You claim to be a researcher then let us speak."

      Does this mean that you will back up your preposterous claims with research? Am I hoping in vain? Ah, let me read on.

      You wrote: " I have three masters degrees. Two of them are in research."

      Wow. Please tell me what fully-accredited university teaches such a course and actually gives a Masters in Research? I am all ears! Please don't disappoint me with the name of some online Bible research institute, you know, the ones where you never go anywhere, and you simply send off for your certificates...oh, of course, after you have "researched" the answers to their really "unbiased" questions. I can't wait to hear what scholarly work and undergraduate programs you fulfilled for this amazing degree. I will await your enlightenment.

      Your wrote: " You have not researched this well."

      And to back your facts...? I mean, I have a university degree in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have translated the Dead Sea Scrolls, lectured at universities to Ph.D.s, have had my findings published in major journals around the world, and you say that I have not researched this well. I am really laughing as I write this, because you do not even know what constitutes acceptable research in a university setting. Please show me proofs for your unfounded baloney. I am waiting. And don't hide behind pontifications. Either you have facts to show, or you are all hot air.

      Oh, wait, here it is. You wrote: "I would love to correct some of the things you say here but do not have the time..."

      Sheesh! And you had me worried that you might just pop some Hebrew on me, lay a little Ashkenazic on me, maybe open on a papyrus that I have not seen. Ah, no, just the standard cop out from someone who wants to say "I am an authority, and by my authority, I declare you wrong. Therefore, you should stop saying what you are saying, because I don't like it, and I am an authority. Take my word for it." Wow! That sure is good enough for me. You have me on the run.....weeee!

      You wrote: " I am convinced you are on a journey and will soon arrive at the inevitable truth. I pray that the good lord grants you long life that you may find that which you seek before time is up."

      Well, that prayer was answered before you got here. The Lord delivered me from the bigotry you espouse. He saw to it that I had a genuine education at one of the best universities in all of the subjects

      that I would need to refute bigots like you.

      You wrote: "With regards to gay bashing. God gave man a right to judge/discern but not to exact judgement."

      Wrong! The Bible says "Judge Not!" Judge yourself, but leave God to judge others. He loves His gay children just as much as He loves His hetero children. Twist the Bible all you want to, it does not ever give you that right.

      You wrote: " This was a privilege reserved for the judges only in the bible. Thats was what was meant when they said an eye for an eye. It was not a mandate to everyone but only a selected few to ensure justice."

      An "eye for an eye" was the Code of Hammurabi, not the Bible. Where did you say you got your fifty degrees again? Oh yeah, online. Research???? Masters????

      You wrote: "I do not support their sexual choice..."

      And they probably would be disgusted if they ever saw yours in action.

      You wrote: " Salvation was promised to All who accept God."

      The only true thing you have said so far. Yes, God loves His gay children, too.

      You wrote: "God does not support being gay nor does he accept it."

      There you go making false claims again. You see, if you really were a researcher, then you would read the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," from Xlibris Publishers. Then, you would see what forty years of expert and scholarly research really looks like, because that is what went into the making of this book. All the Hebrew, all the Greek, all the archaeology, history and more, every fact is proven beyond a shadow of doubt, and the conclusion is perfectly clear when you read the book. Ah, yes, I forgot, you do not have the time to research. You now know it all, and all of your bigotries are backed by your research degree. Wow! I love when people come here with their arrogant put downs, and not only will they not use supporting documentation for their arguments, they simply tell us "I am an authority- take my word for it." I am laughing at you the entire time I am writing this. I have no respect for such bull crap posing as authoritative. Of such ignorance, hatred is planted, watered, grown and harvested.

      You wrote: " Do not twist the bible and claim research."

      A hearty amen to that. So why don't you start finally doing some research and read the book I mentioned?

      You wrote: " Evolution is also claimed to be a well researched theory yet it goes against the bible in significant ways. Does this make it true or just a persons view on the issue?"

      This statement alone shows me why you do not know what it takes to have e genuine Masters Degree. Any half-wit who made it through a regular university would see right through your bull crap.

      I have nothing but contempt for those anti-gay bigots who pose as educated authorities all in an effort to put down gays. You will not ever hear me being soft on such people, and you, sir, take the prize tonight. I will enjoy reading whatever you post, because you have already made a fool of yourself so far. You might push that crap on some hillbillies who want their bigotry played to, but this is a forum for educated discussion of the fact that the Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality. If you want to get my attention as more than a clown, you had better do some real research and leave that little arrogant "three Masters degrees" gimmick for the retards.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel Prideland,

      You really should do yourself a favor and at least read the article at the beginning of all these posts, because this verse from Leviticus has already been discussed sufficiently that anybody with all the "research degrees" that you claim would have seen the proofs. Here is a little re-cap for your late entry into this class:

      The first part of Leviticus 18:22 is “Vet zachar . . .” “Vet” is the “And with” portion of this sentence. Since Hebrew has no indefinite article (a, an), when the definite article (the) is not used, then “a,” or “an,” is understood. Thus, we can translate “zachar” as “a male,” or “a male phallic figure.” “Tishkav” is a verb meaning “to lie down.” It is an idiom for having sex, such as the oft-used biblical phrase “to lie with” someone. The gender of this verb is male, thus, it is speaking to the men who engage in this practice. “Lo” is the word used to negate something and negates whatever follows, so “lo tishkav” means that “you (male) shall not lie down.” The word “mishkvey” is the noun form of “mishkav,” “bed.” “Mishkvey” is in the plural construct state and means “beds of.” This construct in Hebrew also understands the preposition “in,” so that the correct translation of “mishkvey” would be “in beds of.” Ishah is the Hebrew word for “woman/wife.” Putting all of this together, the complete sentence thus far reads: “And with a male/phallic image, you (male) shall not have sex in the beds of a woman.” If this had meant to say that a man shall not have sex with another man, it would have used the word for “man,” “ish,” both times. The verse would have said that “ish shall not lie with ish.” But, it does not. It clearly begins with the word for the religious phallic symbol, the zachar. This, therefore, opens up a lot of debate with those who have tortured this passage for so many years.

      What Are “The Beds Of A Woman”?

      To finally put this verse to its original purpose, we have to delve a bit deeper into the rituals of Molech. During the rituals for worshiping Molech, male temple prostitutes would play the role of Ashterah, the feminine counterpart to Molech. They would wear women’s clothes and paint their faces with the makeup of her image, or wear an appropriate mask symbolizing Ashterah. Thus, when the men engaged in the ritual sex portion of the Molech rites, they would “lie with males (zachars) in the beds of women.” During the rituals of Molech worship, animals were used, temple prostitutes were used, children were sacrificed . . . and for three verses in a row, these very practices are condemned as making anyone who participates in them “toevah,” or ritually unclean and, therefore, unworthy of worshiping in the temple of Israel’s god.

      Verse 21, no sacrificing your children to Molech.

      Verse 22, no sex with the male temple prostitutes of Molech.

      Verse 23, no sex with any of the animals that are used in Molech rituals.

      Very simple...research!

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      You wrote: "When I wrote it, I knew you or head would point that out. Which proves to me that you want to re-focus that very strong point that I put in bold text."

      If you knew that I would point out the rest of the story, then why did you leave that part out in the first place? You were kind of obvious, don't you think? I quoted the entire story, because, if you did not have ulterior motives, then you should have. You are guilty of the same old "cut-and-paste" taking things out of context to seemingly make your point, and, once again, you prove that all you can do is twist the Bible. The whole story is the truth, not just the part you fantasize about.

      You really want this story to be about homosexuals. What total ignorance! I have no pity for fools, and when you come in here with your twisting of the Bible to say what it does not, then show complete stupidity by not researching subjects before you comment, I am not going to treat you like anything more than you are...an ignorant backwoods who wants to justify his bigotry and white wash the results of his anti-gay hate. ANYONE who takes the time to do a little research would KNOW what heterosexual rape of men in times of war, or as a means of sending a signal to enemies, is all about - humiliation! Men rape men in these circumstances as a sadistic means of psychologically destroying their enemies. Men who have been thus raped are forever ashamed and mentally disfigured. Such dehumanizing rape leaves the enemy permanently unable to fight back. It has been documented down through the centuries. Here, for your education, is a link to a well-researched article in The Guardian about this very subject. Read it, then tell me that you still do not know about heterosexual males using rape of males as a tool of torture and psychological warfare.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/17/the-...

      You wrote: "Yes, they abused her to the point of death, but they wanted sex with the man who was traveling. So, their homosexual intentions were called WICKED."

      Again, do some research so that you stop looking like a fool. The ancient custom in the Middle East of heterosexual men raping other men as a way to torture them has been sufficiently documented. Go study, then come back and comment. I do not let people like you off the hook. You want to come in here with your arrogance, expect me to expose your idiocy with full headlights. Heterosexual men raping enemy males has been documented, as well as the reason, so your ignorance s glaring as usual. I make no excuses for being harsh on you. You really have it coming with all of your hubris. It would be one thing if you actually showed some attempt at backing up your claims with fact, but all you do is twist the Bible and fire off more of the same unfounded bigotry. Facts, sir, facts!

      You wrote: "Argue this point with me Hanavee."

      I just did. You lost terribly!

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      Hanavee. The link you just provided tells a harrowing tale. Thanks for posting it. Perhaps just perhaps K12 et al will read it and maybe just maybe, they will see the story of Lot and Sodom in a new light.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      You wrote: "Argue this point with me Hanavee."

      I just did. You lost terribly!

      Don't think so...

      Whether it was for humiliation or not doesn't matter. Their actions as scripture states was wicked. This point is so solid.

      The only thing I see in all of this, is you trying to justify an action which a good chunk of the planet finds revolting; with the Holy word of God (YHVH).

      I have to define who my God is, since I'm not sure which god you are a child of.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      K12, you mean a good chunk of your planet of religious ignorance. You have no idea what indigenous tribes do or feel nor of other beliefs. You are only going by the Christian religion and that is a small part of the whole world.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      First of Hanavee dont be silly and childish when I speak about "know" I speak in a contextual manner and do not apply it as absolute knowledge. So when I say always, I mean in contexts such as that.

      Also from what I just read are you saying you accept Evolution. If this is the case then I guess you really are not a believer in God and you are just here trying to sell a book.

      My statement is still the same, if people want to engage in same sex relationship let them get a civil partnership. It is a different topic when it infiltrates religion.

      Also what is this rubbish about being anti gay. Thats like a gay person saying that just because he wants same sex relationships he must be anti hetero sexual.

      Being gay is not accepted by God anymore than other form of sexual immorality. I am not afraid to say this because it is true.

      Havanavee you my friend are a clown. Homo sexuality has existed for centuries and pre-dates the bible yet this is not a possible link for procreation. Hence the term goes against nature.

      Do not confuse what is needed and what is done for pleasure. Homosexuality and necrophilia have existed for centuries even amongst animal as a matter of fact the both at the same has been seen to occur is several animals including birds. However this does not make it natural. In animals the reason is still unknown especially when the two occur but with man it is a different thing.

      Human beings are capable of all sorts and the doing of a thing does not make it natural. I can see you belong to a more liberal perspective of God but remember there is more to our God than "just" a loving God and this is what you seem to think in other to justify all perversions.

      The bible does not explicitly speak against under-aged sex does this mean it accepts it? It does not explicitly speak about necrophilia does this mean it accepts it?

      You asked me about an eye for an eye

      Matthew 5:38-48

      New International Version (NIV)

      Eye for Eye

      38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

      Also let me put my qualifications out there.

      I have a Bsc hons (psychology) I finished with a first class for oxford university.

      An MBA from London Business school

      An Msc in research from University of Glasgow

      An MSc in research methods

      A post graduate certificate in research as well as social sciences researcher certificate.

      That you explained your opinion to a group does not make it the gospel truth. It only makes it your own understanding.

      I know that we both believe in a different God or have a very different understanding of him.

      Dont be a silly and small minded man and talk rubbish about my educational level. I started school when I just turned two years old and achieved all of this before I was 24. I am also finishing my PHd in clinical psychology by Gods grace next year and I am still under 30.

      You are fee to believe what you want to and when it comes to life outside of the church I recognise and respect (even if I don't particularly think it is natural) a persons choice to sexual partners. This is their choice and theirs alone. I wont have even spoken here if you did not involve my God in it. Anything outside the church is permissible as long as that particular society allows it (this is also a relative statement incase you missed that again).

      There are societies that allow 6 year old girls to be married to a 30 year old man and societies that the man gives his wife to his guests for their entertainment for the night. This does not mean God allows it. Life is whatever we chose to accept if it is outside of the church but within the church of God it is what God says.

      Our God is a consuming fire and not just a loving God. So be-careful with what gospel you spread in his name.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Daniel, to speak of homosexuality and necrophilia in the same sentence shows us that your mind is in some way very much in error.

      Are you just plain ignorant? Or are you so fundamentally religious that you cannot detatch your mind from the narrow christian perspectve?

      As for speaking of Hanavee in such a negative way, you again show your blinkered outlook on lifeHanavee has begun this hub in order to discuss a most informative and scholarly book. No book, of course, should be above criticism, but where it has been researched carefully and obviously comes from many years of background study (for example in linguistics) then it deserves to be read in full and addressd with due respect.

      With a closed and arrogant mind such yours that can hardly be expected.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Ps. Daniel, if I was in need of the services of clinical psychologist, the last thing I would need is a dogmatic christian overlay.

      Your beliefs are your own affair but they do not belong in my life or the lives of many other people.

      Your belief is obviously in a god of your own making. If I had a personal god it would be of my own making. Neither is right for the other. Each of us has freedom of choice.

      Period.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel,

      Here is what you wrote:

      "With regards to gay bashing. God gave man a right to judge/discern but not to exact judgement. This was a privilege reserved for the judges only in the bible. Thats was what was meant when they said an eye for an eye. It was not a mandate to everyone but only a selected few to ensure justice."

      Now you try to say that, because this ancient law is referenced in the Bible, this law is biblical in origin. Once again, this law was not Jewish or Christian, but from the Laws of Hammurabi. It was the law of the land, and Jesus taught that it was wrong. It was never a law of the Bible. You need to study more before you write.

      All of your arguments read like a second-grader, so I sincerely doubt your educational claims. If they are in any way correct, somebody failed in the process of letting you graduate, because your grammar is atrocious.

      You keep trying to justify your anti-gay bigotry by saying one lame thing after another, flawed logic. Gays do not try to enact laws that deprive heterosexuals of civil rights, or housing, or employment, and they do not try to criminalize heterosexual consensual sex. Gays do not try to deprive heterosexuals of the right to love whom they wish, to marry and enjoy the legal rights of marriage, such as tax credits and inheritance, hospital visitation and thousands more, that heterosexuals take for granted. And gays do not get up in pulpits and other public places and teach that heterosexuality is being intrinsically damaged.

      The bigotry is one-way, heterosexuality always pitted against homosexuality, and in virtually all discussions, it is condemnatory. For someone so "seemingly" educated, you really miss the boat. Thus, my sincere doubts about your education.

      Furthermore, you did not read the article at the beginning of this blog, yet jumped right in with your preconceived ideas showing two things: you do NOT know what genuine research is, and you are a prejudiced bigot. I know you have not read the article, nor have you read any of the numerous posts that I placed here, because the article shows tremendous scholarly research, and the posts are often direct quotations from the book in discussion. Had you read them, I would have known by citations and a proper analytical approach, something all true scholars know only too well. You told on yourself, scholarly lazy and incapable of original thought. Discussion with you is a waste of time, because you do not read before you criticize, and that is the height of ignorance.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Dan,

      Don't get off topic, this is what Hanavee likes to do. He can get you twisted in multiple rabbit trails.

      His claims to non condemning biblical passages of homosexual activity is what I've been refuting.

      Probably the best thing to do is stop posting. That way he doesn't get anymore attention.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      K12, you still think there is some kind of trickery or conspiracy against you? No, your stubborn refusal to look beyond your own narrow focus on evil is the only problem here.

      If I could for just one moment detect something of the Christ-like spirit coming from what you say, then I could welcome a discussion with you.

      Open yourself to that Spirit instead of that hate-filled ego and we are

      eager to hear your opinion.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Love everyone Jon

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      I have read the comments by Jonnycomelately and havanee and to be honest that including the books is nothing more than "verbal candy floss". It has no substance.

      First of all I refused to be bullied as you think thats the way to talk.

      English is not my first language and it is a bit silly to assume it is so I do the best with what I learnt but anyone with any diverse educational background knows that typo errors if any does not take away from the meaning of a book.

      Jonnycomelately. I never asked you to join me or for me to be your shrink. Your statement is laughable at best.

      This rubbish about hating gays has to stop. It appears that anyone that goes against your opinions must be a gay basher so let me educate you a bit about me.

      First of all I have written three successful book with each selling over a million copies. Daniel prideland is not my name but a pseudo name.

      My brother is gay and I love my brother as much as you can love another human being . He is my best friend and he was my best man at my wedding. His partner is one of the nicest men I have ever met. I only wish he was a woman and it would be perfect. I believe if he had to be gay he picked right. I cant fault him at all. You have little to no idea what you speak about.

      Your statement that only two kind of people will come here to read this is not only small minded by confusing. Why will an educated researcher form such an silly conclusion?

      Also at no point have I spoken badly about your degrees? It is childish, small minded and disgusting to base your arguments on such. I will not base my reply on your glorious degrees which to be fair you really cant compare but that is a story for another time.

      Back to the statement. Just because someone misunderstood (not saying they did) Sodom and Gomorrah does not mean homosexuality is acceptable by God. You are using what is referred to as bait and switch. You say something that could be true and form a baseless conclusion.

      Also I need to say something important here when I speak about Necrophilia I am not saying they are the same. Only someone who has no understanding of psycholinguistics will form that conclusion. I simply and only said the Bible does not explicitly condemn necrophilia and this does not mean it accepts it and even if the bible did not (Assuming your baseless research is even true for a second). It still does not point to God accepting it.

      How does something so simple not make sense to you? It is like saying the sun comes out every days and as such it will rain. While the first part might or is true it doesn't make the second part true as they are not interconnected (I am sure this will skip over you and I will get another candy floss response).

      Your book and logic makes no sense. I showed this to one of our professors in languages to see if you had any credibility and to be honest it was the days topic. Your research is laughable at best. This is not because you did not raise some good points but because you raised some crazy CONCLUSIONS.

      I dont think I really should even reply here as like I said the entire logic and reading is "verbal candy floss". A chasing after the wind. It was an ambitious project with biased origins but you failed terribly.

      Please take that book to an educated forum and let your peers dissect it for you and maybe you will understand why I say all this and not take it personally like you did before.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel Prideland,

      You wrote: "Your book and logic makes no sense. I showed this to one of our professors in languages to see if you had any credibility and to be honest it was the days topic. Your research is laughable at best."

      By that statement, you show that either you are a liar, or your "professor of language" is a fraud, because not only is the language used in the book ("Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality") accurate and derived directly from original texts in Hebrew and Greek, this same book is being used in major universities by professors who completely endorse its findings. You condemn a book that you have not even seen, let alone read, and that makes you a fraud.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      k12rswow,

      You use the most twisted nonsense to try to make your points. You refuse to read anything that might contradict your prejudices, then, because you will not read the proofs for everything I have pointed out, you go back to your cave and accuse us of being the ones who want to remain in darkness.

      Parroting the same hypocritical prejudices that you were taught is no proof of anything but that you were told to follow these rules laid down by somebody else. You never questioned, and that's your problem. But, constantly repeating bigotry that was taught does not in any way demonstrate fact or proof for your argument. It only shows that you can repeat the ignorance that was taught to you.

      You remind me of the man who came to the school to yank his kids out of there, because, as he put it, "They're a teachin' my kids to spell taters with a "P."

      It matters not what you were taught if it is not backed in fact. The book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality" is all fact. It scares you, because you might finally have somebody challenging your comfortable bigotries. You have proven that you will never read the book. Some people are incapable of learning, or they are incapable of changing... or both.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Leviticus Is Self-Contradictory

      Leviticus is a book that, by its own creation, is to be used as a mechanism of control over a people who would now be bound by those who wrote these laws. And some of these laws were immediately self-contradictory. The greatest contradiction comes when we look very closely at Leviticus 18:12—

      “Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s sister: she is thy father’s near kinswoman.”

      This means that you cannot have sex with your father’s sister. This is considered “wickedness” according to Leviticus, yet let’s look at the family skeletons of the very man to whom the writers of Leviticus attribute authorship, Moses, himself. Go to Exodus 6:20.

      “And Amram took him Jochebed his father’s sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses.”

      The writers of Leviticus want their audience to believe that this book has great and irrevocable authority, because it was supposedly dictated by God directly to Moses from within the original temple. From the very first verse, chapter after chapter begins with the statement that the Lord spoke to Moses and gave him the list of rules that follow. The obvious reasons for making God and Moses the origin of these rules becomes apparent when one studies the historical and political situations that were unfolding as the returnees, under the decree of King Cyrus, attempted to insert themselves into their homeland and to assert themselves as a nation that wished never to feel the disruptions of captivity again. The long trek from Babylon back to Jerusalem undoubtedly gave many a campfire discussion to who would be the new rulers. Jockeying for leadership positions was a daily practice, and after months of journeying across the desert, the “private club” had arrived to let the “inferiors” know that they had everything under control, and that they were now in charge. Knowing that their people, their culture, their existence as Israelites, had been threatened to the point of being completely assimilated and, if protective measures were not taken, their identity could disappear forever, they had to give these new rules and rituals greater weight than any of them individually, or collectively, possessed. Thus, it was not these purists who wrote these rules, but a force greater than themselves—God and Moses. And this is not something new. Whenever someone wants to appear to have greater authority to commit an action, what greater club can one wield than to say that God says so? Yet a contradiction exists here, one that should have been apparent to those who were now attributing authorship to Moses. Moses, his brother Aaron and his sister Miriam, were born of a union that was forbidden by the writers of Leviticus. Since he was born of an unlawful union, Moses would have been forbidden to even enter the temple under these new laws. In fact, they forgot that even their patriarch, King David, was the grandson of the famous Ruth, of whom the Book of Ruth is written, and she was a Moabite, which would have kept King David out of the temple, as well. The authorship of Leviticus cannot be Moses, since even the rules laid out in Leviticus, itself, would make that impossible.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Lev 18:22

      You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 4 years ago

      This was written way before our time . Why because the words as we can see was not brought by mans will , it would have to be a greater source of knowledge , some one that would know that down each generation this would be a practice and they would need to know God own judgment and feelings on this choice , I would rather accept truth, than to make up truth ,this is how God feels about the subject. And it has not been able to be erased by man or angles. That is the bad ones.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      k12rswow, that quote you have made is also covered clearly in the book which Hanavee is talking about.

      Please don't be afraid to read that book. Further knowledge can only lead to an enhancement of your faith.

      I had no idea of the various meanings behind the biblical texts before reading this scholarly work. There is always something knew to learn, it's what makes life worth while.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      Havanee. Did you honestly just call an Oxford University professor a fraud because he did not agree with your "work"?

      Where exactly did you say you got your degree from again?

      You havent put half the work into this research as he has in his life time or his many many many (said three time to emphasize just how many) books.

      You say a lot of things and like i said earlier what is faulty is not just your understanding of what you say but the conclusions your form.

      The conclusions is what gets to me the most. While it is arguable and rightfully so that Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed for homosexuality alone. It does not in anyway mean homosexuality is endorsed.

      You form or attempt to form conclusions on what people (who are men and are all sinners according to the bible) do and seem to think because they did it then it must be acceptable. This is false logic and like I said numerous times it is a scientific fallacy called bait and switch.

      This is the fault in this. Let us use Number 12 as an example.

      Numbers 12

      New International Version (NIV)

      Miriam and Aaron Oppose Moses

      12 Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cushite wife, for he had married a Cushite. 2 “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses?” they asked. “Hasn’t he also spoken through us?” And the Lord heard this.

      3 (Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)

      4 At once the Lord said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, “Come out to the tent of meeting, all three of you.” So the three of them went out. 5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, 6 he said, “Listen to my words:

      “When there is a prophet among you,

      I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,

      I speak to them in dreams.

      7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;

      he is faithful in all my house.

      8 With him I speak face to face,

      clearly and not in riddles;

      he sees the form of the Lord.

      Why then were you not afraid

      to speak against my servant Moses?”

      9 The anger of the Lord burned against them, and he left them.

      10 When the cloud lifted from above the tent, Miriam’s skin was leprous[a]—it became as white as snow. Aaron turned toward her and saw that she had a defiling skin disease, 11 and he said to Moses, “Please, my lord, I ask you not to hold against us the sin we have so foolishly committed. 12 Do not let her be like a stillborn infant coming from its mother’s womb with its flesh half eaten away.”

      13 So Moses cried out to the Lord, “Please, God, heal her!”

      14 The Lord replied to Moses, “If her father had spit in her face, would she not have been in disgrace for seven days? Confine her outside the camp for seven days; after that she can be brought back.” 15 So Miriam was confined outside the camp for seven days, and the people did not move on till she was brought back.

      Now does this mean that moses did the right thing. He did not and Miram was right to attack him. The only difference is that Moses was under the anointing of God (therefore authourity of God). God alone was his judge. She should not have spoken against him. Also did his brother not say the same thing to Moses. Why was he not afflicted? It is for the same exact reason. This does not mean what he (moses) did was right it only meant Miram was not the one to bring the accusation against him.

      When you read that according to your own reasoning and apparent methodology for the conclusion you reached it must mean that this behaviour was acceptable or to phrase more accurately "not condemned by God". This is a fallacy and a false conclusion.

      There are several examples in the bible of where men did the wrong thing but where not punished. David had many wives and concubines even though he knew he should not have and yet the bible does not chastise him for this. They only chastise him for Uriahs wife (noting he must have been his friend and probably a top soldier as he lived right next to the kings palace).

      This is something David also understood when he refused to attack Saul. Do you remember him saying he shall not touch the lords anointed.

      The conclusion of the matter and this is only if you accept genuine criticism is your conclusions do not stand on their own and cannot be said to mean only that which you propose so your overall conclusion can only be seen as false.

      As friendly advice and I genuinely do not mean this as an insult. You should take classes in research methods. It is one thing to understand languages it is another thing to form conclusions and present them in an academic circle. There are a few things to consider based on the book but every one of your conclusions is unfortunately in my opinion and a few colleagues, ill founded and do not serve as an explanation nor merit the unfortunate conclusion.

      I admire what you seemed to have wanted to do which is to remove the biase against gays. We as christians have no right to condemn anyone and you can fight for that right however do not make it seem or thing we must accept the actions.

      You can love the sinner and not the sin and this is something hard for most people to do but if you research it also it is not without reason.

      This is the singular reason why I called the book "verbal candy floss". It is a sweet read but has no real substance mainly because your conclusions are not the only possible conclusions so you must state that there are other possible reasons. You must leave that to someones choice and not state it like you know for sure because your research does not highlight or give credibility to the title. It is shallow at best.

      Now back to the issues of education. You really need to respect educated people or no one will respect your education. Its a silly thing to do (i.e to try to belittle someone's education).

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Daniel from Pride Land, be honest. Have you actually read that book, cover to cover, and carefully considered everything that is written there?

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      To be honest you really dont have to. Unfortunately Havanee has said so much and while I see what the general idea of what he is trying to do is. His conclusion still leave a lot to be desired because there are so many other explanation which will also be suitable as mentioned in my previous post. His replies here are enough to write a book on its own.

      Even the method of justifying himself or the arguments are not necessarily interlinked. The only way to save the book from being totally disregarded by the educated public is to let readers form their own conclusions. His conclusions are not an absolute (and will never be held as such as there are so many other reasons and possibilities) and so the idea and title itself (i.e The bible does not condemn homosexuality) on its own becomes a joke. This is not an open statement but a directed one and as such he must have conclusive absolute evidence to make such a BOLD statement and this is clearly lacking even in the follow ups.

      Like I said, he can take this to educational circles and ask by giving my exact point and see if what I say is biased towards some ridiculous perceived hatred of gays or just the absurdity of the conclusions.

      This was why I questioned even the logic used to form the conclusions earlier.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Well then I will re-iterate what he has said.... .you are not what you claim to be, i.e, a scholar, or a professional or, if we are again honest, you do not represent a good example of a person following a christ-like life.

      For you to be talking about a book which you have not read, have not followed the context in which the various chapters of the book are written, makes you ignorant and cowardly. You are the epitome of a troll.

      All of what you have written in your posts here is not backed up by knowledge or statement of fact. If you claim to be educated to a university level it certainly has not been demonstrated here, yet.

      Give us a good discussion, retaining your opinions about homosexuality as you wish, I can respect that; but to castigate someone who has honestly and carefully presented an opposite point of view is insulting and egotistical.

      Prove yourself otherwise!

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Now, to add a little brightness and cheer to this Hub, I would like to offer this link. It brought tears to my eyes, the beauty of the music which Handel composed and the technology/organisation that brought it to my ears.

      Much better than wrangling over do's and don'ts in life.

      http://www.classicfm.com/composers/handel/handel-f...

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      It's suggested that Handel was gay.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel Prideland,

      I have written Leviticus 18:22 in the original Paleo-Hebrew, the language at the time Leviticus was written, and I have posted it at the top of my article. As a degreed linguist, I have given lectures on this subject to academic audiences filled with members whose educated credentials would make you run away and hide, so please stop blathering about your so-called degrees and educated friends who apparently were created out of your need for backup. I am neither impressed, nor am I concerned that your menagerie act like fools. For you to NOT read either the book I quote nor the scholarly posts that I have presented, then to pontificate about their meaning, is the height of moronic ignorance. You debase your arguments by showing constantly that you neither read nor research before blathering on, so for you to demand to be taken seriously is ludicrous.

      By the way, all of your claims to fame ring hollow with me. A true academic would read anything that he was debating. I have heard some of the best debates between Christian and Atheist scholars, and they at the very least had read each other's works. How foolish would they to have done otherwise! You stupidly shoot yourself in the foot every time you come on here, because you expect me to be fooled into thinking you are a scholar, yet you prove yourself to be anything but. You don't prove you are a scholar by saying you are, you prove it by being one and acting like one.

      I posted the Paleo-Hebrew, written by my own hand and by my genuine education. Why don't you show that to your so-called language experts and get back to me. Oh, by the way, if you had read my posts, you would know that I have already translated it for you somewhere.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel Prideland,

      I have to keep from laughing. You really sound like a child. Did I just call an Oxford professor a fraud? No. If that is who you are referring to, you made him a fraud, because you said that he read the book I quoted and laughed at it. Funny is that he must have been a speed reader, and even funnier that he did not recognize all of the academically recognized passages taken directly from the Hebrew and Greek texts, verbatim. If he was incapable of seeing that, even if he does not know Hebrew or Greek, then he was a fool and a fraud to attempt to belittle proper Hebrew and Greek renderings.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      How can anyone, who brings pain and suffering to so many, call themselves followers of Christ and children of God? Refusing to consider their wrongs, refusing to listen to proper interpretation of the Scriptures, refusing to let go of their tradition of anti-gay bigotries and prejudices merely because they have found comfort in holding on to their wrong thinking, all of this has made most churches nothing more than private clubs for self-centered, arrogant, thoughtless and hurtful people. If anything is an abomination to God, this is.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      If you read the account in Genesis, it is important to know some of the customs of that region at that time in history. The Valley of Siddim, wherein lay the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, was surrounded by the most inhospitable desert one could imagine. Genesis 14:10 alludes to just some of the naturally occurring, treacherous conditions that existed there—

      “And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits...”

      Geologically, this was one of the most unforgiving areas to inhabit because, not only was it desert, but it was full of sulfur pits, salt waters, gas pockets that could erupt and catch fire, and tectonic activity that could literally liquefy the ground a person stood upon, not to mention the numerous earthquakes. Even in recent times, while drilling a water well in the same area, a gas blowout erupted, and it was only a miracle that the gas did not ignite. In ancient times, tectonic activity would easily have released pockets of gas that resulted in fires and great pillars of smoke. These hellish conditions made it unsafe to travel carelessly by day, and no one in his right mind traveled this region by night. For these reasons, one custom evolved into a moral requirement that seemed only natural: if someone came to your city at sunset, and if you were the first one to see them, it became your responsibility to give them shelter from the desert for the night. So, whether this was a person you knew, or someone from an enemy tribe, come sunset, if he presented himself at the gates to your oasis, you provided for him. This meant food and shelter, as well as water to wash the salty, sulfurous, desert dust from his feet. To turn someone away at this hour of the day would be unthinkable! To do so would be to condemn someone to possible death. What if one of your loved ones were out in the desert and had to stop at one of the other cities for the night? Would you want them turned away? No. And so it was, that everyone was expected to observe this custom of reciprocal hospitality.

      Now read the passage, and if you read it slowly and let this sink in, you will notice several things right away. One is the time of day that this story begins—at the setting of the sun.

      Genesis 19:1 “And there came two angels to Sodom at even...”

      The two visitors, considered angels, arrive at the city of Sodom at sunset. And who is sitting in the gate leading into the city? Lot.

      “...and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom...”

      “Sitting in the gate” is a phrase similar to a bridge tender, someone who minds the city gate. Also, by custom, since he is the first one to lay eyes on the strangers advancing to the city, he must extend the welcome, and if they do not have lodging with relatives or friends there, thus being strangers at the mercy of the desert, he must make arrangements for their safety for the night. I have never heard a single preacher even allude to knowledge of this custom. They are often so hell bent on getting to the really important part of the story, the part where gays are the reason Sodom was destroyed, that most preachers speed past this portion of the story. Who needs to know cultural customs at the time of this event? After all, isn’t this only about gays? If people would just have an original thought, stop and think for themselves, read this passage and stop reciting the pre-digested and bigoted dogma that has been handed down from one believer to the next, they would find that this story is exactly what I am telling you it is: an account of an actual event in history that was embellished by Jewish authors later as a morality lesson. Without studying about the harshness of life in that desert region and the risk of death to anyone trying to travel in that desert by night, the term inhospitable seems trivial, but it is precisely that which is the theme at the foundation of this story, and those who would preach without adequate study are indeed the fulfillment of the biblical verse that calls them the “blind leading the blind.”

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      As for the question of how to treat gay people, one need only go to the teachings of Christ and stop going back to seemingly convenient passages in the Old Testament. Christ made the Old Testament past tense, His sacrifice changing all, and not once does Christ speak against homosexuals. Moreover, in John 3:16, ALL people can take comfort in His promise:

      “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

      That “whosoever” means everybody—you, me, heterosexual, homosexual... everyone. God made us all, God loves us all. He does not hate His creation.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      A church is a gathering of people, and that gathering can be a private club of hypocrites, or it can be a gathering of people who are true followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ. A building is just a building. It is not a box that contains God, since He cannot be owned or regulated, and He is certainly not limited to those who think they control His love. God’s love is limitless, and if we look at Isaiah 56:8, we see that God has more children than just those who belong to a particular denomination:

      “The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered to him.”

      It is time to destroy the myth of Sodom and Gomorrah and teach the truth. Fact is that these cities underwent a series of natural events that destroyed them along with neighboring cities. But these cities were not destroyed for being homosexual, and I sincerely doubt that they were destroyed by the God I worship. I don’t think God sent hurricane Katrina to destroy New Orleans for sin, nor do I believe God sent terrorists to destroy the Twin Towers in New York on September 11, 2001, for the same reason. Life on this planet is filled with great joys and great sorrows. It is filled with great successes and great failures. It is filled with life, and it is filled with dying. And none of this experience should be interpreted to justify the deliberate infliction of pain and suffering on any living creature. Prejudice wrought by ignorance and maintained through lack of compassion for those who suffer at the other end of prejudice, this callous disregard for its effects on others, passing on the unbroken chain of unnecessary pain and suffering, is the greatest sorrow I see afflicting our world. There is a cure. The Bible says to know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      The modern definition for fornication is sex between unmarried persons. Porneian references a system of prostitution in early Rome and Greece that has no parallel in today’s world. More on this later. The words “sexual immorality” have been used by some translators, which might be as close as we can come to making a parallel translation for this word, to abstain from porneian is to abstain from sexual immorality. However, sexual immorality is one thing in one person’s mind, totally another in the mind of someone else, and more so when we look at sexual customs and taboos from culture to culture, from historical era to historical era. What is sexual immorality? Can you get two people to agree on the definition? And when more than one person is placed in a room and asked to come to a consensus on what is proper sex and what is improper, they are going to bring with them their historical and cultural background. Paul was dealing with this very issue in the Early Church, especially in Corinth, because this city was such a melting pot of cultures, Egyptian, Greek, Roman and more. Whose ideals regarding sex were righteous, and whose were immoral? Good luck. Paul, speaking as a Stoic/Pharisee, is bringing with him these philosophical and religious prejudices to any debate on the subject.

      Let’s look at some examples where porneian is used.

      Acts 21:25—περὶ δὲ τῶν πεπιστευκότων ἐθνῶν ἡµεῖς ἐπεστείλαµεν κρίναντες φυλάσσεσθαι αὐτοὺς τό τε εἰδωλόθυτον καὶ αἷµα καὶ πνικτὸν καὶ πορνείαν.

      “But concerning those who have believed among the nations, we have written judging that they should observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from food offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication (porneian).”

      An interesting note here is that one word, “eidolothuton,” is translated by more than one word, “food (meat) offered to idols.” So why isn’t porneian given a more than one-word translation that would help readers better understand? Also, note that the readers here are told to avoid “blood” and “strangled.” This goes back to Mosaic law in Leviticus 17:13-14:

      “And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or foul that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.

      For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.”

      Here is Paul addressing an assembly of new believers, a mix of converts who are Jews and non-Jews, and the question has come up as to whether or not Paul is telling new believers to throw out Mosaic law. This is a legal question that the elders of the Early Church wrestle with often, that is, should believers convert to being Jews in order to become followers of Jesus Christ, since Jesus was Jewish? Or can anyone believe in Jesus, and if so, what religious rituals are they to observe?

      Paul summons his training under the exceptional legal mind of Gamaliel and deftly tells the crowd that he has not told the Gentiles to become Jews, but, to console the legalistic Jews, he has told the Gentiles that they should abstain from meat that has been offered to idols, from any food that is tainted with blood and from meat that comes from animals that have been strangled, since animals that have been strangled have not had the blood drained from them. This means that Paul is teaching Judaic laws to the Gentiles, this coming from his continued reliance upon his training as a Pharisee. Note, too, that Paul is here listing with these admonitions that the Gentiles refrain from a very common practice among the Romans and Greeks, prostitution, porneian. It is listed with these admonitions taken from Mosaic law and Pharisaic traditions. Two great cultures are at opposite ends of the spectrum here, Jewish on one side, and Gentile on the other, and now the apostles are trying to teach a religion that all can embrace, a religion that knows no boundaries, where “whosoever” means Jew, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Asian or any other nationality and culture. What a task!

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      I see both yourself (havanee) and johnycomelately have resorted to your old tricks of insulting to prove yourself your intellect. Another Ego driven ramble.

      If you believe your book worthy then I have nothing more to add. Like all the millions of books out there claiming what they are not. You will know by the sales number at best. And the fact that no one will remember your name or even this book in 5 years. You will still be trying to pedal it at all cost and it will be at the back of some dusty old library.

      Most likely the only people that would buy it would be your very own relatives.

      It is "verbal candy floss".A book that seems to be written by an author without knowledge of how conclusions are formed. As nothing you have said points to the conclusions you have arrived at.

      Good luck

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      I suspect this IS a troll and should be treated as such.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Go to bed Jon

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel Prideland,

      You claim not one, but three Masters Degrees, a feat that would have meant the ability to spell correctly, as well as to render proper syntax when writing - You fail.

      You claim a Masters in Research, a degree that is non-existent and a title that causes laughter every time I repeat it in academic circles - You Fail.

      You claim to have this degree in research, yet you never stop making comments on subjects you have never researched, i.e., the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality." - You Fail.

      You claim all these academic degrees, yet you never offer a single academic proof for any rebuttal that you make, offering, instead, patently false opinion in an attempt to make your opinion sound like fact - You Fail.

      Instead of citing authoritative sources, you cite imaginary friends in "high places" and books that you have written that have sold millions of copies. If you had a million-seller, your grammar and syntax would be evidence to that fact, rather than to the contrary - You Fail.

      You say that you are a major published author, yet cannot form a cogent thought with supporting evidence (too busy to do the research, in your own words) - You Fail.

      You attempt to sound like you know what you are doing by resorting to elementary school put downs of the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," yet you never cite any passages to offer substantive critique and proper academic rebuttal - You Fail.

      You claim to be a prophet and predict that the book "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality" will never sell, that "...no one will remember your name or even this book in 5 years. You will still be trying to pedal it at all cost and it will be at the back of some dusty old library." The fact that every bookstore that I have checked with is selling out and re-ordering more proves that you are no prophet - You Fail.

      Rather than check true facts about the sales of this book, your jealousy blinds you and causes you to make dire predictions of its impending doom - You Fail.

      Gee, I wish there were something I could say positive about your wasted time here, but - I Fail.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      P.S. I noticed that Daniel Prideland could not translate my Paleo-Hebrew inscription that I posted. I thought he had a linguist friend, an academic over at Oxford, who could polish that off in seconds. Tsk, tsk. Still nothing forthcoming from our academic scholar and million-selling book author with his menagerie of invented friends and research degrees.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      Another silly statement, Havanee has written so much here you don't have to read the book to see what he hangs unto. What he has written on here is nothing more than a desperate plea to propagate what I agree is a serious issue which is discrimination. However his conclusions are false.

      He can chose to ignore what I am saying as to the way logic and conclusions work in empirical research but this is to his own detriment and this will showcase in other places later and he will only be made to look like a fool later.

      This is how empirical research works.

      My dissertation when I was an Undergrad was "Gender differences in human cognition".

      Existing theory suggested that women were better in Mathematical problems and Men at logical reasoning (This is a highly summarized version).

      My research showed that this was infact not exactly accurate and I found out it was the opposite. However it is career suicide to come around and state "conclusively" that Men were better in mathematical equations and women in logical reasoning because there are other variables that could be responsible .

      All you can say is that there is a "significant correlation" and not conclusively. The reader is left to decide if it is enough. The reason is no research is 100% not even medical sciences. It is only accurate for a period. The fact your book is conclusively titled alone makes it a laughing stock and a fraud. You cannot do so because not one of your conclusion even if true stand on their own.

      There are other reasons why one can argue against God/The bible and homosexuality. One of them is God said go and Multiply. By common reasoning and nature. Adam and Steve cannot do this and would be in direct conflict with that command. Only Adam and Eve. This is one of a multitude of reasons.

      I can go one but its like water on a ducks back when I address you.

      You personally seem to not be able to accept criticism. You applaud your book as almost equal to the bible if not even greater as like you say "a lot of research " has been put into it. Yet from your opening statement of how only two people will read this. You the author already shows your biase. There is no way that book is free of it as you spend a lot of time insulting your readers and if you feel only 2 types will read it does it make sense to insult potentially half your readers and demean them as been people "brainwashed "?

      Your thinking appears comical. Your ideologies lost and writing a desperate search for recognition. You want people to believe you yet the thinking behind the book (not you in person as I don't know you) lacks reasoning and academic rigour expected in empirical research. You make lots of closed ended statements based only on your own understanding and belittle anyone (rather childishly) that goes against it.

      The truth is your book is concluded on nothing more than speculation and possibility and it would be okay if you had a title or stance that was more of a question like "does the bible really condemn homosexuality?

      By stating your ill gotten conclusion and trying to force it through what appears to be military style tactics you make yourself a laughing stock and the book nothing more than a joke, verbal candy floss and its usefulness nothing more than to hold up an unstable coffee table or coffee cup.

      Your conclusions are there for everyone to see and you in no way achieve the lofty heights you attempt to reach.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel Prideland,

      The amount of time you have wasted here tooting your own horn could have been better spent reading the book and proving that you have something academic to say. The proof of your extreme lack of this ability is in the abundance of posts you have written here without a single one of them offering anything more than your opinion of a book that you have not read. Keep on proving the point that you are indeed unscholarly in your approach. Yawn....

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      I have criticised your very own statements here. Your conclusions given here and your approach towards your "supposed" half of reading audience.

      These are based on things you yourself have admitted and said here. Even you reasoning for the title of the book as explained in earlier posts by you.

      As usual all of this has gone over your head and will probably result in another verbal personal attack from you again.

      Now who here really is the Yawn. :)

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Yawn Prideland,

      Same ole same ole. You call yourself an academic, and all you do is blow your own horn. Not one quote from the book, not one academic piece of evidence contradicting the findings in the book, and you expect to be taken seriously? There is nothing in your posts that is the least bit academic, nothing but childish drivel about your opinion and how it is the only thing we should follow. Why don't you write it in Hebrew or Greek, then I might at least think you had some education to back up the boring rants.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      The summary of the statement is that even if you were right (you really werent) all you have proved is that the bible has been mis-interpreted. Nothing more.

      Common sense dictates that the absence of a thing does not dictate the presence of its opposite. As I said earlier without limit, which you still refuse to acknowledge. Unless the bible comes out explicitly and says its fine.

      Even if passages have been mis interpreted at the very best all you have concluded is that the bible was not interpreted correctly and thats it.

      Your dream that this pile of writing some way concludes and comes as deep revelation to the world is but a dream in your head.

      Even if you interpreted it correctly it only points to that. Not the conclusion you have raised.

      You genuinely need to even google how to make conclusions.

      Let me help since you seem a bit lazy to do this

      Even strict, 'true experimental,' designs have to make compromises, and the researcher must be thorough in pointing these out, justifying the methodology and reasoning.

      For example, when drawing conclusions, the researcher may think that another causal effect influenced the results, and that this variable was not eliminated during the experimental process. A refined version of the experiment may help to achieve better results, if the new effect is included in the design process.

      In the global warming example, the researcher might establish that carbon dioxide emission alone cannot be responsible for global warming. They may decide that another effect is contributing, so propose that methane may also be a factor in global warming. A new study would incorporate methane into the model.

      This is a crash course in research and anyone who thought this book has merit only needs to see the writers arguments to make the entire book laughable at best. You simply reached for too much and failed badly.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      I also refused to address all this rubbish about hebrew because all you are is a glorified interpreter. You attain to reach the rigour of qualitative and quantitative research but you really have no clue how to have a methodology not to mention a conclusion.

      At the end of it all, even if it you are correct (Massive if). You must be seriously joking to think it forms that conclusion.

      You have poor experimental design, or flaws in the reasoning processes, which invalidate the results. Its really that simple.

      I mean for the love of God an all that is holy in this world , What different variables are in the context?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel,

      If for once you actually took the Hebrew phrases, or the Greek phrases, that were referenced in this book, then showed that the translation relied upon was flawed because...and there would then follow your scholarly premise, foundational evidence, verifiable research, factual conclusion... I might be inclined to debate you. But, you don't, and that is where you repeatedly fail the laws of academic reasoning and debate. There is no merit to your debate, because it is backed by none of the above-listed required elements. You insert, instead, your opinion, and you then back it with nothing but insult for those who dare think you are not what you claim. We don't care who you claim to be. All that is needed is cogent argument, verifiable fact and irrefutable proof. You offer none. Rather, you argue the sanctity of your opinion, which is extremely arrogant and easily dismissed. You are damaging your arguments well enough without any help from me.

      If, as a linguist, I said that "bonjour" is French for "hello," and you insisted that is means "death," I would be speaking as an academic who knows this is a fact, and you would be doing what you are doing right now, claiming that your opinion, which flies in the face of fact, is all that matters.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel,

      I love your analogy. You do not need to read a book to expound on its lack of scholarly research. The book, for your information, represents forty years of scholarly research in more fields than just linguistics. Archaeology, geophysics, history, cultural anthropology, ancient religious documents and much more were all employed in the production of this factual thesis which became the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality." You are so afraid of reading it, because it might challenge your bigotries.

      Brian

      A Child of God

      P.S. Still can't translate the Paleo-Hebrew inscription that I placed up top? Come now. You're a degreed researcher. You don't have to go far to find the answer.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      I guess you missed the part where I said you being right is not the issue. Even if you were right (best case scenario) it only proves the bible was misinterpreted which is possible considering it is not in its original language. This is the reason why Muslims do not want a translation of the Quran.

      It does not in anyway prove the title of your book. Like I said even if we all felt sodom and gomorrah was burnt for necrophilia and you prove we misunderstood why. That is all you have proven (i.e a misunderstanding) and not that Necrophilia is acceptable.

      This is the problem with the book.

      This is also the last time I will repeat myself on the issue. It has nothing to do with just the validity of the work but the conclusion as the validity is not in question. It is your method of concluding that this someone how means the BIBLe does not condemn homosexuality.

      I am hoping someone else with even a basic knowledge of how research works will explain this as I have said the same thing at least 7 times.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      Also no research is without its own criticisms brought by the researcher. What is yours?

      My other question also remains, what different variables are in the context?

      You formed a conclusion but your method to it is so open that it in no way gives credit to your conclusion.

      How are you still missing this glaring fact?

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 4 years ago

      Between you and Daniel Prideland, I see a bigoted homophobe and a raving lunatic know-it-all. If you guys are really "Christians" then Heaven is going to suck.

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      newenglandsun,

      Thank you for adding an opinion that says, "Hey, I have read every post, as well as the entire article, and based on that, I am here to add to the discussion in a positive and enlightening way."

      Funny how you picked up on Daniel's homophobia and bigotry. I'll take being called a raving lunatic any day if that's what it takes for others to call Daniel out on what he is doing, which is defending looking down on gays as "intrinsically damaged goods" (to quote the Catholic Church). I don't agree with the Catholic Church, and I don't agree with Daniel.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 4 years ago

      You're not JUST a raving lunatick. You are also a know-it-all. Just as hateful and spiteful as the other guy.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      Havanee and newenglandsun you really should be chasing a career in comedy.

      Newenglandsun I have explained why and how it is not possible that I have some bigoted view on gays.

      Havanee you are so egotistic. You actually think that by debunking your book, the logic in it and the gross stupidity in its conclusions it must mean that I hate gays. The ego on you that you think you are some how a messiah to them and your book is the long awaited response to the bible.

      Also how is this against gays

      I SAID

      Also no research is without its own criticisms brought by the researcher. What is yours?

      My other question also remains, what different variables are in the context?

      You formed a conclusion but your method to it is so open that it in no way gives credit to your conclusion.

      How are you still missing this glaring fact?

      I ALSO MENTIONED

      Even strict, 'true experimental,' designs have to make compromises, and the researcher must be thorough in pointing these out, justifying the methodology and reasoning.

      For example, when drawing conclusions, the researcher may think that another causal effect influenced the results, and that this variable was not eliminated during the experimental process. A refined version of the experiment may help to achieve better results, if the new effect is included in the design process.

      In the global warming example, the researcher might establish that carbon dioxide emission alone cannot be responsible for global warming. They may decide that another effect is contributing, so propose that methane may also be a factor in global warming. A new study would incorporate methane into the model.

      This is a crash course in research and anyone who thought this book has merit only needs to see the writers arguments to make the entire book laughable at best. You simply reached for too much and failed badly.

      HOW ABOUT THIS?

      You attain to reach the rigour of qualitative and quantitative research but you really have no clue how to have a methodology not to mention a conclusion.

      At the end of it all, even if it you are correct (Massive if). You must be seriously joking to think it forms that conclusion.

      You have poor experimental design, or flaws in the reasoning processes, which invalidate the results. Its really that simple.

      I mean for the love of God an all that is holy in this world , What different variables are in the context?

      WHAT PART OF ANY OF THIS IS ANTI-GAY?

      MAYBE YOU MISSED THIS ALSO

      First of all I have written three successful book with each selling over a million copies. Daniel prideland is not my name but a pseudo name.

      My brother is gay and I love my brother as much as you can love another human being . He is my best friend and he was my best man at my wedding. His partner is one of the nicest men I have ever met. I only wish he was a woman and it would be perfect. I believe if he had to be gay he picked right. I cant fault him at all. You have little to no idea what you speak about.

      Your statement that only two kind of people will come here to read this is not only small minded by confusing. Why will an educated researcher form such an silly conclusion?

      Also at no point have I spoken badly about your degrees? It is childish, small minded and disgusting to base your arguments on such. I will not base my reply on your glorious degrees which to be fair you really cant compare but that is a story for another time.

      I have said so much and yet you make conclusions (As is normal with you) that are in no where indicative of what was said.

      Another use of scientific fallacy called "Bait and Switch" or Fallacy of Equivocation.

      An example is . It is well known that the average family has 2.5 children (premise #1). Well, Jane's family is very average (premise #2), so they must have 2.5 children (conclusion).

      This is what you did.

      NOW are you going to continue to ignore the elephant in the room and go on about gay bashing. It is so much easier to turn to that than to accept your failures and short comings (oh wait your research is yet to accept it has any short comings. I guess it must be the only research on the world without one.By the way even laws such as Ohms law , gravitation law and the likes have conditions attached or variables).

      Please read about the Fallacy of Equivocation and see how silly your book is.

      I know it is easy to claim everyone that doesnt support you is a gay basher but that is based on you assuming your book is infallible.

      This is another example of using Fallacy of Equivocation. "If only you can prove to others I am a gay basher then I must also not be held to have credibility".

      WHAT TOTAL RUBBISH.

      You really need to at least be able to say something more concrete about your silly conclusion beyond.. "err you dont like my book you are a gay basher or go and read hebrew".

      This was a direct criticism of your conclusion and methods. What is the rubbish about hebrew. I also said this is not the issue as even if you had interpreted this correctly. It has nothing to do with your conclusion. NOTHING AT ALL. IT JUST SHOWS AT THE VERY BEST CASE THAT THE BIBLE WAS NOT INTERPRETED WELL.

      Congratulations on discovering that, we already knew that as long as it is not in its original language it is possible to misinterpret.

      This now the newest stupidest thing you have said "intrinsically damaged goods". I do not condemn a gay person. It is simple. Love the person but hate the sin. I do not condemn a gay person any more than Jesus condemned the prostitute. However it is silly and stupid to say that because he dint condemn her prostitution is not a sin and the bible does not condemn the prostitution.

      This is what your book looks like . If you still dont get this and your readers dont understand this then you arent really worth a reply and at least when people come here if they bother to read the comments they will see the foolishness in the "reasoning "(not interpretation) of the book and this the authors inability to understand variables. It is an elementary error in research.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Daniel from Pride Land, what a lot of ranting and raving! You seem to pride yourself on being a "researcher." I know nothing of university life, except the university of Life itself. As far as I can make out, your one deep problem is "hate the sin." This comes from your "belief" in a god of your own making. If I had a "god" that would be of my own making. Everyone in the world makes his/her own god, in his/her own mind.

      All your criticisms seem to be centred around that phobia of yours.... the "sin."

      All you pseudo-academia stuff is totally unnecessary here. When you talk of your brother being gay, he is your best friend, other people in your life are gay, and you love them, but you hate their sin...... what utter bull dust!

      You are only trying to prove your academic abilities over those of Hanavee..... right? Whether a "god" exists, and whether there is any kind of conscious life after our death is totally irrelevant to this argument. It's only about your ego wanting to be superior to Hanavee or any other sinner.

      Stop wasting our time.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      What in gods name are you on about with "Whether a "god" exists, and whether there is any kind of conscious life after our death is totally irrelevant to this argument. It's only about your ego wanting to be superior to Hanavee or any other sinner.".

      Where did you get all that from?

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 4 years ago

      "Love the person but hate the sin."

      This is homophobia. That you have chosen to view something that is perfectly, 100% normal as a sin. There is nothing immoral about your sexual orientation. It only exists in Christian fairy-god land.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Daniel, where do you get your "hating the sin" from? It seems a key point for you. Is it your perception of christianity?

      Is it some kind of phobia about anal sex? This is a cultural matter, nothing to do with any god.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Daniel, you seem to get lots of enjoyment out of baiting Hanavee. Just what is your purpose in being here in this forum?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel Prideland,

      I have watched as you hang yourself with your attempts to sound like you know what you are doing, as if you even know the tenets of academic research, and the errors you therefore put in print allow me to dissect them without your being able to say that you have not gone on record as saying such things. You have gone on and on at length about your supposed degrees and your superior knowledge of research methodology, and I kept letting you put that out there long enough for you to have written sufficient times so that we can prove that you do not know what you are talking about. The basic thrust of your argument is that I do not know how to research academically, but you do, then as proof, you continue to show that for translating language, one should use the quantitative approach of statistical analysis, which does NOT, as any scientist will point out to you, apply to language translation - EVER!

      Quantitative research is generally associated with the positivist/postpositivist paradigm, and involves collecting and converting data into numerical form so that statistical calculations can be made and conclusions drawn.

      Qualitative research is the approach associated with the social constructivist paradigm which emphasizes the socially constructed nature of reality. It is about recording, analyzing and attempting to uncover the deeper meaning and significance of collected data.

      The pragmatic approach to science involves using the method which appears best suited to the research problem and not getting caught up in philosophical debates about which is the best approach. Pragmatic researchers therefore grant themselves the freedom to use any of the methods, techniques and procedures typically associated with quantitative or qualitative research.

      Being able to mix different approaches has the advantages of enabling triangulation. Triangulation is a common feature of mixed methods studies. It involves, for example:

      - the use of a variety of data sources (data triangulation)

      - the use of several different researchers (investigator triangulation)

      - the use of multiple perspectives to interpret the results (theory triangulation)

      - the use of multiple methods to study a research problem (methodological triangulation)

      In the book, "Homosexuality, The Bible, The Truth - The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality," the method is called TRANSLATION, which is an exact science, such as calculus, and does not involve quantitative analysis in order to reach a conclusion, as there are no variables to analyze. If you had indeed been a degreed researcher, you would have been well aware of all that I just wrote, and therefore, you would not have made the many errors repeatedly in your efforts to appear more educated than you are and to condescendingly condemn the book that you have never read.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      Did you understand what you just wrote?

      Your methodology does not do that neither does your claim and conclusion confirm that.

      Do you really have a clue what you are talking about?

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      Let us talk about Leviticus

      LEVITICUS 20:13

      Although Leviticus 20:13 enjoins the death penalty upon homosexuals, the passage is dismissed as irrelevant to the debate because it is part of a legal/holiness code that no longer is in force. It is no more binding than are the regulations against wearing different materials of cloth and planting different types of seed in the same ground.

      It is true that the Mosaic legal/holiness code was nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14). However, to trivialize the code by placing all items in it on the same level is dubious. The Levitical condemnation of homosexual behavior is treated differently than the legislations against mixing cloths and sowing mixed seed. The former was under penalty of death; the latter were not (Leviticus 19:19). A better, though more unpleasant, analogy to the Levitical view of homosexuality is seen in the prohibitions against incest and bestiality, which are mentioned in the same context (Leviticus 20:14-16ff.).

      This is the conclusion on the matter

      Every time homosexual behavior is mentioned, it is condemned. The Bible is not homophobic (i.e., obsessively hostile toward homosexuality), but it clearly treats heterosexuality as normative (1 Corinthians 7; Ephesians 5; 1 Peter 3; et al.). These unsuccessful attempts to reinterpret the Bible’s teaching on the subject raise an even more crucial question: What Scripture can be presented that legitimizes homosexuality?

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      My questions of you, Daniel, are:

      What is your problem with two persons, in this modern age, living together and enjoying a homosexual life together?

      What would it be, within such a homosexual partnership, that you would object to?

      Why would you object to it?

      How do you justify your objection and the application of your objection universally?

      I am not qualified to ask you these questions from an academic point of view. Just a down-to-earth reasoning is all I am asking for.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Jon,

      Again, we have to refocus this argument to what Hanavee is claiming in this book. This is the contention. Your lifestyle and me telling a white lie is no different in the eyes of the Lord.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Now K12, that is a load of crock! You would know what a Lie is because you told many about me here. Pot calling the kettle black I supposed and your shyte don't stink?!

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      I wish you made sense, so we could have a good discussion. Unfortunately, you don't add any substance at all.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      That is not so, k12.

      Your focus and that of Daniel is NOT what Hanavee is claiming in his book, because it is obvious that neither of you have read the book. So how can you fairly assess it, let alone criticize it.

      You both have the prime focus of denigrating homosexuality based upon your interpretation of the bible.

      Now, stop being dishonest! Because if you claim to be christian, dishonesty is NOT acceptable. Period.

      Based upon the reply you just made to LG, since when did you desire to have a discussion?

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      Jon,

      I've been able to get the gist of what Hanavee is claiming, and It looks as if he has pasted sections of the book in this thread. Wonder how he did that???

      So, I don't have to read the book.

      In addition, you are focusing on one type of behavior, and that some of us don't agree; therefore since we don't agree your conclusion is we are bashers, and haters, and hypocritical christians.

      If anyone were to read our past post, they wouldn't see that.

      Believe me, if I were to bash, you'd know it.

      For the last time! Hanavee has made a claim that we've been refuting for some time now. We hold the bible as being very sacred, and we don't like seeing statements being made that even non-christians can figure out is not true.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      "We hold the bible as being very sacred, and we don't like seeing statements being made that even non-christians can figure out is not true."

      You have limited your "God" to human nonsense. Your "God" only exists in your mind. You may very well hold the bible as being sacred, but that again is only in your mind.

      You have based your opinions of that book on the pasted sections in the postings within this hub. Just like you base your opinion of homosexuality upon selected "verses" from your bible.

      I don't like seeing statements such as you make, calling homosexuality wrong. Because it is only so if you, bigoted human beings, say it is.

      When you call your beliefs into your defense, and try to apply those beliefs to everyone else, YOU are the wrong party. In reality, there is NO god to back you up. Only your ego.

      The book in question has the potential to open your eyes, but there is none so blind as those who will not see.

    • k12rswow profile image

      k12rswow 4 years ago from New England

      I sense a bit of an edge.

      Again, since I don't agree with you. Instantly you call me a bigot????

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      NO, it is not the disagreement, it is your attitude. I am more than happy for us to live with our differences. You can stay in your church, heterosexual, believing in your god, for all you like. I can live with that.

      However, you will not equally allow me my homosexuality. You will always regard me as a second-class citizen in the eyes of your "Lord."

      So you do not have a level playing field.

      You could discuss with me what it means for me to be homosexual. Would that interest you? Without judging me? I stress this. Because I do not deny your right to be christian, only your right to judge me.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      Hi Jonnycomelately. This was my point all along. I explained that when God is taken out of the equation. Man can do what he feels like and no one can have moral authority over him. He is left to the desires of the heart. His actions are his and his alone no matter what someone else might feel. The only thing that is left is society. If society (Relative to where you live) find it acceptable then it is fine. This is the case in societies where a man can marry a 6 year old girl. God is not the central moral reference point, Society is.

      A common example of this was by Americas infamous serial Killer Jeffery Dahmer (I am not saying homosexuals are serial killers, I only use him to explain morality without God).

      Jeffery an infamous serial killer and atheist sentenced to 900 years in prison, said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?

      My only quarrel is when God is brought into the equation and not any God but God of Christianity. This means that He (i.e God) must be held as the moral reference point. Our feelings become secondary to his order. When we say we "are Christians" then Gods law alone must be held holy.

      As mentioned this is not the case outside of the church.

      It commonly is stated by Christians with a singular understanding of God as love alone and not as "a consuming fire" (Which is demonstrated several times in the old testament and after the death of Christ) that Jesus never said a word about homosexuality and as such it is fine. As our guide and model for life, we should follow Jesus’ example of silence. He taught, instead, that we should love one another in a non-judgmental way.

      In response, it should be noted that Jesus’ silence on the issue is no argument that He approved of homosexuality.

      Like I explained earlier the absence of a thing does not mean the presence of its polar opposite.

      He never specifically addressed the issues of pedophilia, bestiality,necrophilia, Coprophilia, Dacryphilia, Mysophilia or any number of other sexual perversions.

      Does this mean that Jesus approved of whatever He did not condemn by name?

      Are we honestly to think that as long as people feel love, it doesn’t matter what they do? To ask is to reveal a glaring answer.

      In fact, the Lord Jesus ALWAYS spoke of sexual relations in heterosexual terms. The original order of mankind was Man and Woman (Adam and Eve). The next command was go an multiply which could only be fulfilled by opposite sexes.

      What Jesus did say carries more weight than our views of what He did not say or in this case what the "Bible might not have been interpreted correctly to not have said".

      Clearly, Jesus’ heterosexual view must be taken as normative (read Matthew 19:4-6 et al.).

      This is only an explanation on the bible. It would be a very different argument if there was even a single reference or scripture that legitimizes homosexuality.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      I agree with Jon. Nowhere in that Bible does it say that we should go judging others. Jesus brought the NEW Covenant and he did not mention Homosexulaity. I notice with all this "judging" going on that not one person can use only Jesus's works and words to stake their claims. Most of it stems from a single verse in Laviticus. I dunno and I have not read the book either, but that does not give me the right to judge anyone for how they conduct their lives behind bedroom walls. I am not homosexual, but I don't poke my nose where it does not belong and judge others.

      K12, just as your arrogance has shown us that you are blind and choose to be about homosexuality, it is coming right back to you. You refuse to see it as that and that is what is getting you into trouble. You stated about a little white lie and I retorted that you should know because you spread lies about others and it came so easy for you. Right now, it is not about the Bible and what is says and what is doesn't say...like Jon said, it is about your attitude. You can't see this as a problem and that is a big problem. You judged me very harshly and you have no idea who I am or what I am...do you do the same when you are sitting in a public place with other people? OMG how awful and that is not love. You reap just what you sow.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      Thank you for your sermon. You continue believing it if you like. I do not accept your logic in relation to all those "..philia," or the assumption that I must "believe in" that christian god of yours.

      I respect that Hanavee has a belief in that christian god, but I suspect in a much more loving and healthy manner than your religious stuff that you push around.

      When I left the christian church many years ago now, I gained much more understanding and enlightened information by looking into Buddhism. Not that I am "a" Buddhist," just allowing the wealth of knowledge of the world to enhance my life and my loving. I also found that what Jesus is said to have preached was just the same loving of life as what the Buddha taught.. Exactly the same.

      I could never go back to the sort of religion you espouse..... so no thank you.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 4 years ago from West By God

      Funny how you and those other here that judge people don't get it what Jesus and others of the Bible tells us: The Kingdom of God is Within us--all of us, there were no exceptions. Man does as God directs and if we don't then we have consequences that change our directions, but we all have God, Satan, Evil, Good in us all and we cannot leave this because it is within us......period.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      I must now go to bed because it is late, and my solar batteries are running down until the sun shines again. Good night everyone.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 4 years ago

      Hey, look at these comments of Bishop Schori on Biblical interpretation.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/27/katharine...

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 4 years ago

      Daniel Prideland,

      Eve means "life" not "women". God created Adam (mankind) in his image, he created man and women as Adam (mankind).

      Any attempt of a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 has been debunked by modern scientific findings any way though.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      So are we to believe now that eve was not female but "life" or males. Even today males and males do not procreate. I dont see your point if you had any?

      How was cain, and abel born?

      What about Seth and his sisters?

      What a silly statement.

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 4 years ago

      The book of Genesis was not written as a moral guide silly Daniel Prideland. The commandment to procreate as delivered by Yahweh in that chapter is telling people within that time-frame how they were supposed to survive.

      You are assuming that the purpose of sex is to procreate which is not always the case. Sometimes, the purpose of sex is actually to form bonds and create communities between people. Hence, increasing our survival chances that way.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      I agree and I did not say it did as a moral guide. I simply used it in reference to a passage to support Heterosexuality as the normal. Not as a moral guide.

      There are lots of passages supporting heterosexuality which as I said in the conclusion on my statement which I will copy and paste again.

      Every time homosexual behavior is mentioned, it is condemned. The Bible is not homophobic (i.e., obsessively hostile toward homosexuality), but it clearly treats heterosexuality as normative (1 Corinthians 7; Ephesians 5; 1 Peter 3; et al.).

      These unsuccessful attempts to reinterpret the Bible’s teaching on the subject raise an even more crucial question: What Scripture can be presented that legitimizes homosexuality?

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 4 years ago

      "The Bible...clearly treats heterosexuality as normative"

      Of course it does. This proves my theory that it was written by patriarchs. The religion of status quo always gets to decide. Thus, if the religion of status quo showed favoritism toward homosexuality, then heterosexuality would be banned and homosexuality would be the norm.

      "These unsuccessful attempts to reinterpret the Bible’s teaching"

      How is any one here "reinterpreting" what the Bible says? All that's being done here is looking at the Bible more critically. That means interpreting the Bible in the same exact way it's always been interpreted. Within its context.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      So within its context where is the supporting evidence supporting Homosexuality in the bible as fine or even acceptable?

      As we have already established that the absence of direct criticism against homosexuality in the bible does not interpret to mean the acceptance of it. This as mentioned is the same with bestiality,necrophilia, Coprophilia, Dacryphilia, Mysophilia or any number of other sexual perversions.

    • Daniel Prideland profile image

      Daniel Prideland 4 years ago

      Actually that is exactly what Havanee claims. He says the bible has not been interpreted correctly hence the term, "reinterpreting".

      Besides none of that even matters or is the point. That falls hollow to the original criticism against the book and writer.

      I am addressing something bigger than that. The right to come to the conclusion that the bible does not condemn homosexuality just because you feel (or dare I joke and even say prove) it was misinterpreted.

      That conclusion is only justifiable if you some how found a passage that actually accepts it as even if the bible did not have a single word on it again like a large number of sexual perversions. It does not mean it accepts it. This has been demonstrated time and time again in my explanations above.

    • jonnycomelately profile image

      Alan 4 years ago from Tasmania

      " What Scripture can be presented that legitimizes homosexuality?"

      Who cares???!!! what "the scripture says?"

      Get on with living a healthy, loving, productive life. There are plenty of people happy to engage in the RE-productive live, sufficient to ensure the continuation of our species. Since the human species is running rampant over the world, in excessively large numbers that threaten to destroy the planet's ecosystems, those of us who do not wish to get into the reproductive mode can, and do, help to sustain society by our involvement in it.

      What a beautiful arrangement, where two people can form a loving and cooperative partnership without adding to the burden of overpopulation.

      But then, maybe scripture does not support this notion, so it's out of the window onto the garbage heap, eh?

    • profile image

      newenglandsun 4 years ago

      Daniel Prideland,

      You realize that the Bible has absolutely nothing to say on a certain word that rhymes with hezbianism, right?

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Daniel,

      You wrote: "Did you understand what you just wrote?

      Your methodology does not do that neither does your claim and conclusion confirm that.

      Do you really have a clue what you are talking about?"

      Of course I understand what I just wrote. Don't you? Should I take it down a notch so that you can understand it?

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      When Daniel Prideland continues to distort the truth and state that I believe that the Bible has been misinterpreted, as if the entire Bible is completely improperly translated and none of it correct, he uses nonsense and exaggeration to proceed to his conclusion. And since his premise is flawed, the conclusion is likewise.

      When I say that the Bible has been misinterpreted to condemn homosexuality, it does not then qualify the larger error of saying that I have stated that the entire Bible is flawed and unworthy of use. To use this argument is erroneous, and to do so with intent is fraudulent and false. I have never condemned the Bible as being totally flawed, but I have condemned the intentional abuse and misinterpretation of various passages that are incorrectly translated to be anti-gay.

      When the Bible uses the word "abomination" in Leviticus, the English word "abomination" is inserted to translate "toevah," because the original translators working for King James were instructed to not add any words to the text, and to keep translations verbatim, or word for word. This led to problems, because some words cannot be thus translated, such as "toevah," which means "ritually impure," two words, not one. The dictionary ought to be brought into play when English words are being bantered about. "Abomination" means "a disgusting thing," "a shamefully wicked action or custom." It does NOT mean "damned to Hell." Nonetheless, I cannot tell you how many times Fundamentalists try to redo the Bible, redo what the writers of the Bible were saying in any particular passage, and when the writers of Leviticus were warning the Israelites that they would no longer be permitted to worship in the temple of Molech, they warned them that doing so would render them "toevah," "ritually impure." And the cure for being toevah was to bathe in the mikvah, the purity baths outside of the temple, before entering the temple. Leviticus 18:22 does NOT say homosexual. It refers, instead, to the practice of having sex with the temple prostitutes of Molech during the fertility rituals.

      The Israelites also engaged in child sacrifice, yet none of them were put to death for sacrificing their children to Molech, and that sacrifice was by fire - throwing their children into the fires of Molech.

      Strange how Fundamentalists just want to read things the way they want them, and ignore all the rest. They want that Leviticus 18:22 to condemn homosexuals, which it does not, but I never hear a preacher preaching about the evils of the Israelites and their child sacrifices.

      Leviticus 18 discusses the temple rituals of Molech and forbids the Israelites to have any more to do with the rituals or the temple, and they list a few of the rituals to make sure that everyone knows what they are talking about. Even the murderous sacrifice of Israelite children is condemned with the admonition that it renders them "toevah," not damned. Funny how sacrificing their children, which we would condemn as murder, is only treated as a ritual impurity, yet anti-gay homophobes don't want to discuss this issue. They just want to go where it seems that Leviticus condemns gays. And they even make convoluted arguments for throwing out all of Leviticus as no longer necessary, because of the Cross, yet they still like to keep the "cherished morsel," the one that seems to condemn gays, Leviticus 18:22. Can't have it both ways. Either you put your unruly children to death as Leviticus requires, or nothing.

      Brian

      A Child of God

    • Hanavee profile image
      Author

      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death . . .”

      Brian

      A Child of God

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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Did The Israelites Engage In Human Sacrifice?

      If you think that the Israelites would never think of sacrificing humans, you would be very wrong . . . because they did!

      II Samuel 21:1-9 “Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

      And the king called the Gibeonites, and said unto them; (now the Gibeonites were not of the children of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; and the children of Israel had sworn unto them: and Saul sought to slay them in his zeal to the children of Israel and Judah.)

      Wherefore David said unto the Gibeonites, What shall I do for you? and wherewith shall I make the atonement, that ye may bless the inheritance of the LORD?

      And the Gibeonites said unto him, We will have no silver nor gold of Saul, nor of his house; neither for us shalt thou kill any man in Israel. And he said, What ye shall say, that will I do for you.

      And they answered the king, The man that consumed us, and that devised against us that we should be destroyed from remaining in any of the coasts of Israel,

      Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD in Gibeah of Saul, whom the LORD did choose. And the king said, I will give them.

      But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan the son of Saul, because of the LORD’s oath that was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul.

      But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:

      And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.

      Another reference to the acceptance of human, or child, sacrifice comes from the prophet Micah:

      Micah 6:6-7 “Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? . . . Shall I give my firstborn for my transgressions, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”

      Still another from Isaiah:

      Isaiah 57:5 “Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the cliffs of the rocks?” Green trees represented the groves of Asherah, the consort of El, or Ba’al.

      I think one more biblical example will suffice to make this point abundantly clear scripturally. We turn now to the story of Jepthah:

      Judges 11:30-31 “And Jepthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou wilt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

      Then it shall be that whosoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace for the children of the Ammon, shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.”

      Thus, we read in verse 34 that his daughter was the first to greet him, and in verse 39 she was sacrificed as a burnt offering.

      Brian

      A Child of God

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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Archaeological Evidence For Child Sacrifice

      We know by reading the Bible that we can correlate archaeological findings, and vice-versa. Archaeological excavations of a shrine to Ba’al near the city of Gezer have yielded clay jars containing the charred bones of infants and some older children, evidence that the Canaanites of the second millennium B.C., practiced the ritual of child sacrifice. Also, the Hinnom valley, located southwest of Jerusalem, was renowned for the rituals of child sacrifice that were offered there to Molech. This place was called the Topheth, or “Place of Fire,” and was even referenced by Jeremiah:

      Jeremiah 7:30-32 “‘The people of Judah have done evil in my sight,’ said the Lord . . . ‘They built the high place of Topheth, which is in the Valley of Ben-Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in fire. Such a thing I never commanded, nor had in mind’”

      Josiah, the last king to rule before the Babylonian Captivity, had tried to stamp out the worship of Molech during his reign. In the book of II Kings we are told of his destruction of the various temples that Solomon had built to various gods, one being to Molech in the valley of Ben Hinnom:

      II Kings 23:10 “And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.”

      At the young age of 39, King Josiah was killed in battle at Megiddo by Nechoh, Pharaoh of Egypt. One of Josiah’s sons became the next king in Jerusalem, and he may have felt it an insurance policy to restore worship of all the various gods to make sure that he did not meet his father’s fate. Too, he may have even wanted to please the right gods and restore the strength of his nation. Whatever his reasons, religious practices purged under Josiah were restored.

      Brian

      A Child of God

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      Brian Gray 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

      Why Did The Israelites Sacrifice Humans?

      Not only do we have to admit that the Israelites did indeed engage in ritual human sacrifice, including the sacrifice of their children to Molech, but with more than sufficient proof that this custom did exist among the Israelites, it is not a matter of did they, but rather, why did they? We, therefore, have to ask, “From where did this custom come?” Do we sacrifice humans today? Does our religion condone such a thing? The answers are obvious . . . yet, as I often repeatedly point out, so many think that the Christianity of today is virtually a carbon copy of what ancient Israelites believed and practiced in the days when Leviticus was written. I hope by now, you are beginning to see how wrong this idea is . . . radically wrong, and morally wrong. Regardless of the fact that the Israelites may have thought that they were following the commandments of their god, do you think that God taught the Israelites to engage in human sacrifice? Don’t gloss over this question. Ask yourself this question, then answer it. I honestly think we can all agree that God is not the author of human sacrifice, since the Bible teaches us that God “changeth not.” If He is not expecting us to engage in the abhorrent practice of sacrificing humans today, then He did not expect anyone to sacrifice humans back then. And if human sacrifice is not ordained of God, then once again, from where did this custom come? The answer is obvious. It came from the culture of that time in history . . . period. Every culture all around the Israelites engaged in human sacrifice. It was a commonality of that time and place, and for the Israelites to engage in the religious practices of their neighbors is not difficult to understand.

      Brian

      A Child of God

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