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The Grave Error of Christianity: the Trinity Doctrine Part 2

Updated on October 21, 2016
"Imputed," or cloaking device for sin
"Imputed," or cloaking device for sin

Please read Part 1 first as Part 2 is a continuation of this theme.

Trinity
Trinity
Trinity
Trinity

Part 2

The purpose of this article will continue off of Part 1 of this series that explores the deception of believing in the Trinity doctrine and the consequences of adhering to it. When the Trinity is added to the Gospel, the ultimate conclusion is to believe that it is impossible to be without sin in this lifetime; ONLY Christ could have achieved this because he is “God the Son,” meaning he is God. This means that pressing on towards perfection and being an overcomer by following Christ’s walk in righteousness by faith is not possible. Rather, the righteousness of Christ is “imputed,” and his “blood” is a cloak for sin; therefore, the Father no longer sees them. The “Christian” is deemed “perfect,” or in other words “without sin” because their one time confession of sin at an altar call within a denominational “church” means that "it is finished," including all of their future sins. All they have to do now is simply “believe” by simply calling their “Jesus” Lord!

Sin Not

John wrote to the ekklesia so that they would “sin not.”

Why would he state it if it were impossible “to walk as Christ walked?”

You cannot have it both ways. You either believe in the Trinity “Gospel,” or the Gospel of Yahshua (Jesus Christ) that brings VICTORY. The Trinity nullifies the Gospel of Yahshua and the ministry of the apostles who were sent by the power of the Holy Spirit to lead us into “perfection.”

And He gave some indeed to be apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, TOWARD THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until WE ALL MAY ATTAIN TO THE UNITY OF THE FAITH and of the knowledge of the Son of God, UNTO A COMPLETE MAN, to the measure of the stature of the FULLNESS OF CHRIST,

so that no longer we might be infants, being tossed by waves and BEING CARRIED ABOUT by every wind of teaching in the cunning, in the craftiness of men with a view to the scheming of deceit. But speaking the truth in love, we should grow up in all things into Him who is the head, Christ – Ephesians 4:11-15

If “imputed" righteousness were true, then Christ’s rebuke of the Scribes and Pharisees would be completely unfair, unreasonable, unrealistic and unattainable.

If I had not come and spoken to them, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE HAD SIN; but now they have NO EXCUSE for their sin. – John 15:22

If I had not done among them the works that no other has done, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE HAD SIN; but now they have both seen and hated both Me and My Father. – John 15:24

Popular denominational Trinitarian cloaks for sin. Contact your nearest "church" to purchase.
Popular denominational Trinitarian cloaks for sin. Contact your nearest "church" to purchase.

The Cloak

Yahshua’s works of righteousness took the Pharisee's “cloak” for sin away leaving them without an excuse because his works put theirs to shame demonstrating that a MAN could be truly righteous.

If the works of Yahshua were done because he was the second person of the Trinity, then his works would not reflect badly on the Scribes and Pharisees.

Why?

They could never live up to his example of righteousness if he was God.

Trinity doctrine must present that ONLY God as "God the Son" can live without sin in the flesh.

If that is the case, then “Jesus” cannot take away Pharisee's “cloak,” which proves that they cannot have control over their flesh confirming their "cloak." Their "cloak" would not take away their excuse, but rather would be a built in excuse for it.

Do you see the irony here?

The righteousness of Yahshua takes away the cloak for sin, yet “Christian” Trinity doctrine teaches that it provides a "cloak" (covering) for sin.

Here we have a clear distinction between the Trinity “Gospel” and the Gospel of Yahshua (Jesus Christ).

One provides a “cloak” for sin taking away the consequences, even when still in sin. The other takes away sins by having victory over them by destroying the works of the devil.

Which one do you believe in?

Works of Righteousness by Faith, or Self-Righteousness?

If Yahsuah (Jesus) was doing works of righteousness by his OWN power, then his words to the Pharisees were self-righteous. This would make Christ was hypocrite like them, especially if he is comparing his OWN self-righteousness with theirs with the advantage of having “Godly powers” that kept him from sinning.

The Trinity doctrine misses the entire message of the true Gospel. Christ said that if he testified of himself, then his testimony was false. Yahshua said that his Father testified on his behalf through the works that he did. He also said to his followers that they too would “testify” of the same works once they received the power of the Holy Spirit.

If I bear witness concerning Myself, MY TESTIMONY IS NOT TRUE. – John 5:31

But I have testimony greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given Me that I should complete them, the same works which I do, BEAR WITNESS CONCERNING ME THAT THE FATHER HAS SENT ME. – John 5:36

Yahshua (Jesus) could do no miracles, or works of righteousness unless it was Father working through him. That is why he testified of his faith in his Father, and the works he did were the Father’s testimony on his behalf.

When the HELPER comes, whom I will send to you FROM THE FATHER, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH who goes forth FROM THE FATHER, He will bear witness concerning Me. And you also bear witness, because you are with Me from the beginning. – John 15:26-27

The Purpose of the Cross

The apostles spoke that all the work that they did was through the Holy Spirit to bring maturity into the body of Yahshua (Jesus Christ) moving towards perfection of being in the fullness of him.

Why would they say this if it was impossible in this lifetime?

The GOOD NEWS is that it IS attainable!

This IS the purpose of the cross.

To believe in Trinitarian doctrine means to turn away from truth and believe in a lie. It is to believe that you are already “perfect” and you do not have to attain, or have nothing to attain to because you already have “imputed" righteousness.

To whom God has willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory, whom we preach, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, SO THAT WE MAY PRESENT EVERY MAN PERFECT IN CHRIST. – Colossians 1:27-28

My children, of whom I travail again until that CHRIST SHALL HAVE BEEN FORMED IN YOU – Galatians 4:19

The "Unattainable"

Peter called those who say that they cannot stop sinning “cursed children.”

Then the Lord knows to deliver the devout out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous being punished unto the day of judgment, and especially those WALKING AFTER THE FLESH in the passion of defilement and despising authority. Bold, self-willed, they do not tremble blaspheming glorious ones, whereas angels, being greater in strength and power, do not bring against them a reviling judgment before the Lord. But these, like irrational animals,

having been born as creatures of instinct for capture and destruction, BLASPHEMING IN WHAT THEY ARE IGNORANT OF, in their destruction also will be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wage of unrighteousness; esteeming carousal in daytime as pleasure; blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, feasting with you; having eyes full of adultery, and UNCEASING FROM SIN; enticing unestablished souls; having a heart having been exercised in craving—CHILDREN OF A CURSE! – 2 Peter 9-14

Paul never stated that he was already saved, nor being perfect, but followed after it by seeking to attain it in his lifetime. He ran the race to win and seek the prize that was within his reach.

If it were unattainable, not being able to be won in his lifetime, then why would he even try running the race?

And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is of the Law, but that which is THROUGH FAITH from Christ, the righteousness of God on the basis of faith, to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from out of dead. NOT THAT ALREADY I HAVE OBTAINED IT OR ALREADY HAVE BEEN PERFECTED, but I AM PURSUING,

if also I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing indeed: Forgetting the things behind and REACHING FORWARD to the things ahead, I PRESS ON TOWARD THE GOAL for the prize of the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus. – Philippians 3:9-14

The Trinitarian cannot speak of the righteousness that comes by faith, nor actually do it either because they believe that they are “righteous” by proxy (imputed).

When we read the words of Paul, he sated that he had not attained it yet, but was pressing on in the faith of Yahshua (Jesus Christ).

The Trinitarian will say we cannot have our own righteousness.

Paul had something different to say by saying that his own righteousness did not come by the Law, but righteousness that came by faith. He didn’t say we can’t have our own righteousness, but said it came by faith, rather than by the Law. Paul never said he was saved, nor did he say he attained the resurrection, but SOUGHT after righteousness by FAITH to ATTAIN to a resurrection.

Can you make the distinctions between the true and false doctrine?

Lip Service and Deceptive "Reasoning"

The Trinitarian loves the lip service game by saying that they believe in pressing on through faith and seek to be like Jesus and live without sin. Yet, by their doctrine they MUST believe that ONLY Christ could attain this in the flesh because he is “God the Son.” The are deceivers as they say that are “reaching forward” and “pressing on,” yet openly say they cannot reach the finish line in this lifetime because it is ONLY something Christ could do because he is God.

Trinitarians rob themselves of true victory because they believe they will continue in sin and consider themselves nothing but sinners. They say, “Don’t we all sin?” They do not have faith, but speak of antichrist “faith.” They will say, “If it were possible, then there would be no need for grace.”

Those who preach contrary to their delusions are called “heretics” and “liars.”

The Trinitarian loves to point the finger at the opposer and says, “Are you not sinless?”

They do not comprehend the words of Paul who said that he had not yet “already attained.”

They will the retort,

“Do you know anyone who attained sinless perfection in their lifetime?”

I say, "Yes, I do!!!"

It is Yahshua Messiah, he was a man in the flesh who overcame sin and lived perfect. To truly follow him in VICTORY means one MUST abandon the deceptive teachings of the Trinity doctrine and believe that we too CAN live righteous by FAITH as he DID.

This is the crux of the faulty deceptive Trinity doctrine because their "Christ" does not count because he is God. Their “Jesus,” “God the Son” the "God/man" cannot be their example to follow because his “righteousness” was self-righteousness and cannot be deemed as a “demonstration of faith.”

The sorry fact is that they have no one to follow because their “Jesus” being God is unfollowable.

Here is the deception in a nutshell,

When the Trinitarian says that they are a “follower” of Christ, it does not mean that they really follow him; it means that they just “believe” in what Christ did for them. They don’t believe that they have to truly follow because they are already deemed as “followers" of Christ by “imputation.”

A true believer in Yahshua (Jesus Christ) knows that they are being MADE righteous by the power of the Holy Spirit into a perfect people who are pleasing to their Father.

The Trinitarian believes that they will not be made literally righteous until Yahshua (Jesus) returns and they are resurrected in their new bodies. They miss that Paul said that we shall not all sleep, but attain to a resurrection.

Behold, I tell to you a mystery: WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED – 1 Corinthians 15:51

Content to Sit and Wait

Most within the “church” system believe that they cannot attain perfection in their lifetime until Christ returns “giving” it to them. They are content to sit in their pews without pressing forward wallowing in their sinful man-driven religious existence believing that they have “imputed” righteousness in their religious anti-faith antichrist "church" system. Putting on incorruption is not a daily walk of faith, but a day they wait for in the future.

They ignore the words of Paul who said that putting off of corruption is something we must do on a daily basis.

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, KNOWING THAT YOUR TOIL IN THE LORD IS NOT IN VAIN. – 1 Corinthians 15:58

Trinitarian doctrine must nullify the work of faith, which in turn nullifies the result of Yahshua’s death and resurrection, which in turn denies the power of the cross that was meant to bring the Holy Spirit. Their labour is in vain, and their “Jesus” died in vain because their version of a walk of “faith” is “imputed” being already “counted” as “righteous.” You don’t have to DO righteousness; you JUST have to “believe.”

The Cherry Picking & Twisting of Romans 4

Of course, as professional cherry pickers of Scripture verses, the Trinitarian will reference Romans 4 and butcher it to match their delusional presuppositions.

What then shall we say Abraham our father discovered according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has ground of boasting, but not toward God. For what does the Scripture say? “And ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.” – Romans 4:1-3

Could it be that simple; we just "believe" and it is counted to us as righteousness without DOING righteousness?

NOW TO THE ONE WORKING, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. – Romans 4:4

Here the Trinitarian justifies that to DO any works of righteousness would cancel out grace. The only logical conclusion in their ideology is that they must deem themselves as sinners so that grace will abound.

What the passage really means is that if we are rewarded for our works, then it is earned, not a gift. Paul is not saying to abstain from works of righteousness so we can receive “grace.”

However, TO THE ONE NOT WORKING, BUT BELIEVING on the One justifying the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness – Romans 4:5

This verse is twisted to mean that we don’t have to do works of righteousness, but can simply “believe.”

Anyone who says otherwise who DOES works of righteousness are deemed as “not having faith" being under the Law.

We can see the inversion of the Gospel taking place by Trinitarian eisegesis of Scripture to promote an antichrist doctrine. True faith is equated as being “ungodly,” and being ungodly is deemed as having “faith" by "imputation."

Can you see why Martin Luther said, “Sin boldly?"

What we have today within modern “Christianity” is a focus away from Yahshua (Jesus Christ), his Kingdom and the fruit of righteousness to the promotion and marketing of man-made doctrines. The Way has been turned into “Doctrianity” where celebrity “theologians” have usurped the teachings of Yahshua and the apostles for ones of their own making.

The inverted “gospel” of “church” today promotes sin and ungodliness as “faith.”

Those who DO walk and believe that they CAN attain righteousness and sinlessness are the ones who are deemed not having faith. The Gospel is turned upside down and backwards and it is called “following" Jesus.

Just as David also declares the blessedness of the man to whom God CREDITS RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM WORKS: - Romans 4:6

Here Paul comments on how God imputes righteousness outside of “works.” In the Trinitarian mind, they believe that this verse is saying that someone who does NO works is “blessed.”

Do you see how ludicrous the notion is to believe that you can receive God’s blessings even though you do no works of righteousness?

“BLESSED are those whose LAWLESS DEEDS ARE FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS ARE COVERED – Romans 4:7

By the eisegesis of the Trinitarian, they believe that God will reward and bless them even though they have no works of righteousness.

BLESSED is the man against whom THE LORD WILL NOT COUNT HIS SIN.” – Romans 4:8

The delusion can go on and on believing that to simply “believe on him” is counted as righteousness.

Those who seek to DO the works of righteousness are “fallen” and not in the “faith.”

Reading the passages in Romans 4 with indoctrinated lenses negates the full counsel of Scripture, and ignores some important facts.

First, the result of Abraham’s faith was by works of righteousness.

Why?

When Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, it was during the time before the Law was given.

Second, when Paul speaks of “works,” he was NOT talking about works of righteousness by faith, but works of the Law.

Within the “church” system there are really only two forms of “righteousness.” It either comes by works of the Law, or by “imputed" righteousness. They fail to understand that neither of these today come from the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

It is the true works of righteousness in love that comes by walking in faith by the Spirit.

Is this blessing then only for the CIRCUMCISED, or also for the UNCIRCUMCISED? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. – Romans 4:9

This passage states Abraham’s righteousness was “imputed” without the works of the Law (uncircumcised). This means that his "imputed" righteousness was given to him before the Law of circumcision was given.

How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but BEFORE he was circumcised. – Romans 4:10

Paul was not stating that Abraham had no works of righteousness; he was stating that he had "imputed" righteousness BEFORE he obeyed the Law of circumcision.

He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he HAD BY FAITH WHILE HE WAS STILL UNCIRCUMCISED. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be COUNTED to them as well – Romans 4:11

Paul is speaking here that his righteousness is "imputed" by FAITH, rather than by works of the Law.

And to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had BEFORE HE WAS CIRCUMCISED. For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world DID NOT COME THROUGH THE LAW BUT THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH. – Romans 4:12-13

Are we to believe that Abraham had no righteousness, but was only “counted” as “righteous” because he "believed." The fact is that Abraham’s faith (belief) brought great works of righteousness, not works of keeping the Law.

For if it is the ADHERENTS OF THE LAW who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. – Romans 4:14

This is the clincher for the Trinitarian “Christian” who twist the Scriptures to say that to DO works of righteousness means that you are cancelling “grace,” or the “promise” because the passage is NOT talking about true works of righteousness by faith through love, but the dead works of the Law.

Abraham’s great deeds of faith did not come by being obedient to the written Law, but were born as a result of his faith. The effort of the Trinitarian Scripture twister is exposed as being in vain because Abraham was someone who DID works of righteousness. To say he just “believed” and did no works is unfounded in the passage of Romans 4.

For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on FAITH, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also TO THE ONE WHO SHARES THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”....

...”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken IN FAITH when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb...

...No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he GREW STRONG IN HIS FAITH as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. – Romans 4:15-21

From reading through this lengthy passage, we find the end result of Abraham’s “faith.” It had nothing to do with obeying by the works of the Law, but obedience in his works of FAITH before God.

By FAITH Abraham OBEYED when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By FAITH he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. – Hebrews 11:8-10

The Righteousness that comes by Faith

Righteousness that comes by faith comes from being obedient to God. When we repent and choose to follow Yahshua (Jesus Christ), his righteousness is “imputed" to us with the genuine intention to walk in obedience to his ways. Right here is where Trinitarian doctrine stops. In their lip service doctrine, they remain in “imputation” through the “blood,” but never press onwards and forwards into righteousness claiming victory that comes by walking in FAITH, just as Yahshua (Jesus) did.

The faith of Abraham was made perfect by works of obedience by FAITH. That is why it is stated in James that faith alone without works is dead.

So also FAITH BY ITSELF, IF IT DOES NOT HAVE WORKS, IS DEAD. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

You see that FAITH WAS ACTIVE ALONG WITH HIS WORKS, and FAITH WAS COMPLETED BY HIS WORKS; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham BELIEVED God, and IT WAS COUNTED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. – James 2:17-24

When somebody says that they cannot stop sinning, or do not have to stop sinning, they are saying that ONLY Christ could live sinless.

If that is the case, Yahshua is NOT Lord over their flesh.

The ekklesia of Christ have been bought with a price, and their flesh no longer belongs to them, but to the Lord. To believe that you are free to do whatever you want because of “imputed" righteousness means that your body does not belong to the Lord voiding any victory over sin.

The cross is not only about being offered “imputed” righteousness, but having the power to be free from sin. The true Gospel is about having the ability in this life to overcome sin. True faith brings true righteousness, not just “imputed" righteousness.

How many times have you heard from the pulpit that righteousness is not about the Law, or works, but by grace?

This is “Churchianity” 101, but something is missing in their false doctrine.

Can you guess what it is?

What they totally miss is that true grace comes through FAITH that BRINGS good WORKS of righteousness.

The ONLY “righteousness” they hold onto is “imputed.” It is meant to “atone” for their sins, but they fail to understand that this kind of righteousness was only available under the Law. They remain in their flesh void of victory over sin and at the same time giving lip service to Christ. They must resort to “righteousness” that comes “by the Law,” or by “imputation.”

The consequence of believing in the Trinity is a rejection of the true Gospel of Yahshua (Jesus Christ) who came to give us life by having faith in him. The result will bear the fruit of righteousness through obedience as we press onwards being perfected in him by the Spirit.

To believe in the Trinity doctrine is to believe in another "Jesus," and another "gospel."

You can believe that you CAN have VICTORY and DO works of righteousness, or you can believe that your "righteousness" and "victory" is "imputed" to you and "it is finished." All you have to do is be a good pew warmer and fill the offering basket and simply "believe" being "secure" in your "faith."

My hope is that you continue to investigate the Trinity doctrine for yourself because what is behind the curtain of this doctrine is deceptively sinister.

Do you believe the "gospel" of the Trinity doctrine is inversion of the true Gospel?

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    • profile image

      Neil Braithwaite 12 months ago

      Aaron - This helped me understand that salvation is more than just believing by faith, it is a combination of belief and works of faith. And that it is OK to stumble, but we must keep running!

      12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION with fear and trembling; 13 for it is YAHWEH WHO IS AT WORK IN YOU, BOTH TO WILL AND TO WORK for HIS good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will PROVE YOURSELVES TO BE BLAMELESS AND INNOCENT, CHILDREN OF YAHWEH above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Messiah I will have reason to glory because I DID NOT RUN IN VAIN NOR TOIL IN VAIN. (Philippians 2)

      Trinitarians don't like to talk about obedience, work or proving yourself or running or toiling - even though that is what Yahweh's WILL is for everyone who calls on the name of His son. They believe that those actions count for nothing and serve to nullify Yahweh's grace, and that "believing" in a God-man is the only thing that must be done to attain salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth!

      Great post!

      Blessings!

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 12 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Neil,

      You got it. You mention righteous works to a Trinitarian, they will say that you are "under the Law."

      Once we have an understanding of "works," the Scriptures come alive, and are not dead because of twisted religious doctrine.

      “‘I know your WORKS, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are ENDURING patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. - Revelation 2:2-3

      “‘I know your WORKS, your love and faith and service and patient ENDURANCE, and that your latter WORKS exceed the first. - Revelation 2:19

    • profile image

      KingdomCome 12 months ago from those of the Ecclesia

      PandN- I'm still studying based on part 1 of this article. Thanks for sharing this.

      God bless.

    • PlanksandNails profile image
      Author

      PlanksandNails 12 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      KingdomCome,

      I'm glad your are weighing and testing all the information. I believe this theme is an important angle of exposing the Trinity doctrine for what it is.

      There is a lot of information to absorb and to think about.

      I don't expect to have many comments on this series, as it is a pretty weighty subject.

    • celafoe profile image

      charlie 12 months ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

      Aaron- you certainly have the anointing to address this issue. God bless--keep up the good works

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 11 months ago from The Ekklesia

      Proverbs 28:13 He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.

      Planks

      These teachings help turn what man wants to make complicated into simply read and do statements. The scripture is full of guidance when it is not distorted and implied to mean something else.

    • celafoe profile image

      charlie 11 months ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

      Aaron- as I re studied the subject yesterday I realized we addressed the subject quite differently but arrived at the same conclusion. One thing you mentioned that I had not used before makes it easier to help someone to see this truth and I will use it.

      if Jesus was not a man but God then, then His "sacrifice" was not really a sacrifice because He could not fail. Therefore He could not have fulfilled scripture and brought the Kingdom and salvation to us.

      Rom 5:15-16

      For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. see all of Ro 5

      The fact that He did bring lt as evidenced by the veil of the temple being split and earthquakes etc showed that He was in fact a man and did in fact fulfill scripture as further confirmed in Acts 2 on the day of pentecost. Jesus is surely the Son of God, a man .

    • PlanksandNails profile image
      Author

      PlanksandNails 11 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Rich,

      The heavy yoke of indoctrination points to a stage where "experts" tell you what to believe and how to "read" the words of Scripture. This is an epidemic where Trinitarians are just parroting what their celebrities have told them.

      Paul states it well,

      Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:12-14

      This is how the indoctrinated pew warmer will interpret the above verses to mean,

      Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but from our pastor who is God, that we might understand these things when we tithe. And pastor imparts this in words taught by wisdom from an esteemed seminary, interpreting truths to those who have become denominational church members. The sinful person does not accept the things that come from pastor anymore for they have deemed them as folly because they no longer attend church. They are not able to understand them because they are no longer under pastor's hedge of protection. Discernment requires someone who is salaried, certified and ordained - 1 Churchy Doctrine 2:12-14

      You are right, "the scripture is full of guidance when it is not distorted and implied to mean something else."

    • PlanksandNails profile image
      Author

      PlanksandNails 11 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Charlie,

      Amen, he is surely the Son of God, a man.

      If we can convey why it is important to believe that Jesus was a man, hopefully others will think critically about their Trinitarian indoctrination.

      “To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with me in my throne, EVEN AS I ALSO OVERCAME, and am set down with my Father in His throne”– Revelation 3:21

      If Yahshua (Jesus) overcame as a man, then we CAN also can overcome too by the Spirit; otherwise, his sacrifice would be meaningless.

      The leader that the Father has placed over us is one of us. God gave him glory and honor because he humbled himself unto death, and then he was raised victoriously to sit at the right hand (authority) of God until the time the Father sends him to come again for his ekklesia to be raised from corruptible to incorruptible to rule and reign in the Kingdom of God.

      Yahshua was the first man to be raised (first fruits) as a man and all those who believe in him will do the same.

      For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the FIRSTFRUITS, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. – 1 Corinthians 15:22-23

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 11 months ago from The Ekklesia

      "If Yahshua (Jesus) overcame as a man, then we CAN also can overcome too by the Spirit; otherwise, his sacrifice would be meaningless."

      If He can do it there is hope for us. All the scriptures that tell us to DO things should be looked at as possible because Christ did them first.

      Christ was tempted just as we are:

      Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

      God cannot be tempted.

      James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

    • profile image

      Neil Braithwaite 11 months ago

      Aaron - Have you seen this website? There are two online books that are very interesting.

      http://www.christiandiscipleschurch.org/content/04...

      http://www.christiandiscipleschurch.org/content/on...

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 11 months ago from The Ekklesia

      Neil

      Have you read the two E-books yet? Let me know what you think.

      richkelleysbg@gmail.com

      Rich

    • profile image

      Neil ithwaite 11 months ago

      @Rich - The website allows you to read any chapters separately and has other posts that are very well written, researched and documented.

      I've read quite a bit of both books and am reading this chapter now:

      http://www.christiandiscipleschurch.org/content/ch...

    • PlanksandNails profile image
      Author

      PlanksandNails 11 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Neil,

      Thanks for posting the links. I just started reading "The Only Perfect Man" last night. The first chapter, "Yahweh: God’s personal name" drives home the importance of God's name and the ignorance of many concerning it. I plan on reading both books. I truly believe that the man-made Trinity doctrine for many will be one of the greatest obstacles to overcome when Yahweh calls them to come out of her (harlot church system).

    • profile image

      Kermos 3 months ago

      The Apostle John recorded "the Word was God" (John 1:1, "theos En ho logos"). Lord Jesus is the Word. This is a true saying, Jesus is God.

      You exhibit a fatal flaw in your article. You portray a linear correlation, an equation of sorts, between the "church" system with the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God. These are not equivalent.

      You, including jw.org folks, are under the fatal delusion of denying YHWH by denying Yahushua (John 1:1, above).

      Elgibor, regardless of the alternate transliteration of el gibbor, translates to Mighty God in an enumeration that the prophet Isaiah (9:6) recorded, and the ancient, predating the Masoretic Text, Dead Sea Scrolls contain the Great Isaiah Scroll from Cave 1 providing the enumeration of: His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Behold the power, Eternal Father, for Jesus said "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30). Behold the power, Mighty God, YHWH is One (Deuteronomy 6:4).

      Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23). This Immanuel, this Yahushua is "YHWH Salvation" - the very literal translation of the Name of the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

      The Jews knew that Jesus declared himself to be God that they accused Him of blasphemy, and in their hearts the Jewish leaders wanted to destroy Him (John 10:33).

      Again, Master Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." It is clear that the Son of God is referring back to Moses at the burning bush that was not consumed, where the God of all eternity identified Himself with "I AM WHO I AM" (Exodus 3:14). Immdediately after Jesus' declaration, the Jews picked up stones to throw at Jesus. It is clear that the Jews did not like Jesus calling Himself God, and neither do you; therefore you are under judgement, and any of your works only result in rewards for you on earth - not in eternity.

      What about some of the apostles? What do they call Jesus?

      Thomas, one of the twelve, called Jesus: "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)

      Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: (2 Peter 1:1)

      Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior (1 Timothy 1:1), and again Paul wrote "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus," (Titus 2:13). Behold, the Lord Jesus issues the commandment in the first sentence of 1 Timothy: (1) "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do." [Acts 9:5-6], and (2) 'But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."' [Acts 9:15-16].

      God is beautiful in all His majesty. "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father." (John 16:28) God is one: He - the Father (John 14:16), and He - the Son (Luke 24:45), and He - the Holy Spirit (John 14:17). Back in John 1:1, we find "the Word was God" and in John 16:28, we find the Word prophecies that He will return to the Father.

      Now, based on your article, you interpreted righteousness into works. Rather works are a result of the Holy Spirit driving the Christian (Acts 2:4, Acts 13:4, Acts 16:6) into righteousness in Christ Jesus (Romans 5:17). Yes, faith without works is dead (James 2:17). If a person works according to the Spirit of the Living God, then the works are acceptable to God (Matthew 10:20); on the other hand, if a natural man works on that which seems righteous or good to the carnal mind, then the reward is here on Earth (Matthew 24:9).

      Let's continue on this vein. Jesus said that when they persecute us believers, they persecute Jesus (Matthew 5:11, John 15:5, Acts 13:4). Jesus said relieving the thirst of even the least of these is doing it to Jesus (Matthew 10:40, Matthew 25:34-40). We must be like the little ones to enter the Kingdom of God (Matthew 18:3, Luke 9:48).

      You have a gospel of death because you deny the Lord Jesus Christ is God (Galatians 1:8). You oppose the witness of Thomas, Peter, Paul, and John. You oppose the very witness of Jesus Christ. Repent, for the Kingdom of God is open to only believers in the Gospel of Life in Christ.

      The One True God that came to Earth bearing the Name of Jesus Christ clearly stated, as recorded by the Apostel John (8:24), "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Kermos,

      You stated,

      (((The One True God that came to Earth bearing the Name of Jesus Christ clearly stated, as recorded by the Apostel John (8:24), "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.")))

      You are try to show the necessity of believing your doctrine. However, your eisegesis is to supply the word “God” after “I am,” not from the text, but from the dictates of your Catholic Trinity doctrine, and make the verse read: “For if you believe not that I am [God], ye shall die in your sins.” This is a distortion of the biblical text as a whole, and the Gospel of John in particular.

      The purpose of the Gospel is clearly stated in 20:31: “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is [“God”? No!] the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

      In light of the explicitly stated purpose of the Gospel of John, teaching that unless one believes in Christ’s “deity,” he will die in his sins is a false and unwarranted assertion. The true meaning of the text is that if one does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, he will die in his sins, and this teaching can be found in a number of scriptures in the New Testament.

      Obviously, if one chooses to not believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, he will die in his sins.”

      You can read my article concerning John 1:1 here.

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Preco...

      Additionally,

      The “Word” was qualitatively God the Father at John 1:1c. The “Word,” which the Father spoke to create all things was inherent within him in such a way that his own Word WAS Him. There is only one God and the Word was inherent within Him as John indicates the Word was WITH God.

      And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. – John 1:14

      The “Word,” which was with God in the beginning was the inherent quality of Him. Christ qualitatively expresses the character of who and what the Father is, he being the Father's Word. God is Light; His “Word” is Light. God is Truth; His “Word” is Truth. God is Life; His “Word” is Life. God is Love; His “Word” is Love. The “Word,” which was inherent within the Father went out on the breath of God’s mouth and became flesh. God is Love and His “Word” of Truth to us is the Light and Life of His Love and that “Word” became embodied in flesh as the man who is Christ.

      As for Matthew 1:23,

      The idea of God being "with" someone in a functional sense is a common expression in the Scriptures. For example, for God to be with Israel meant He was with them in plan and purpose as opposed to being against them.

      Behold, God is WITH US at our head, and his priests with their battle trumpets to sound the call to battle against you. - 2 Chronicles 13:12

      We are told God was "with" Israel, but no one should assume it means Yahweh was occupying their common space.

      God was with Israel in a functional sense rather than spatial one. The God of Israel was with His people in plan and purpose by giving them a son from the House of David, His son, to redeem them from their sins.

      Christ came to reveal the plan and purpose of the Father. The Father came to the earth through Christ in plan and purpose in a functional sense to save His people through His Son.

      Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father ABIDING IN ME does His works. - John 14:10

      In the same manner, it would be false to presume that the Father was abiding in Christ in a spatial sense, but in a functional sense He was abiding in him.

      You can read my article concerning Isaiah 9:6 here:

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/A-Closer-...

      You stated,

      (((Immdediately after Jesus' declaration, the Jews picked up stones to throw at Jesus. It is clear that the Jews did not like Jesus calling Himself God, and neither do you)))

      You can read my article that covers this as well as John 10:30; 10:33 here:

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/An-Examin...

      You refer to 2 Peter 1:1,

      “Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”

      You are trying to force this verse to “prove” the Trinity by what is known as the Granville Sharp Rule of Greek grammar.  This verse is generally translated one of two ways:

      “Our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Revised Version, RSV, NIV, etc.) and “God and our Savior Jesus Christ (KJV). 

      It is possible that the word “God” (Greek = theos) is being used in its lesser sense, i.e., of a man with divine authority, but it is more likely that it is referring to the true God as distinct from Christ. This is certainly the way the context is leading because the very next verse speaks of them separately.

      There is absolutely no reason to force this verse to make Christ into God.  It is the opening verse of the epistle, and reading all of the epistles will show that it is customary in the New Testament to introduce both God and Christ at the opening of each one. Furthermore, it is through the righteousness of both God and Christ that we have received our precious faith. It was through God in that it was He who devised the plan of salvation and was righteous in His ways of making it available to us.

      You refer to Titus 2:10

      At the end of Titus 2:10 in the preceding verse, we see God the Father is identified as "our Savior," but take notice of what Paul says in verse 13. He says we are awaiting the appearing of the glory of our great God AND Savior Jesus Christ. The passage does not say we are waiting for our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, but says we are waiting for the "GLORY OF" our great God AND Savior Jesus Christ. And that is just what Christ is, he is the glory of our great God; the glory of the Father. This is confirmed in Matthew.

      "For the Son of Man is going to come in the GLORY of his Father... - Matthew 16:27.

      You stated,

      (((Now, based on your article, you interpreted righteousness into works.)))

      and

      (((You have a gospel of death because you deny the Lord Jesus Christ is God))) 

      This article will cover your assertions here:

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Trini...

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Trini...

       

    • profile image

      Kermos 3 months ago

      PlanksAndNails

      The teaching that Jesus is God is from the writings of John himself, such as when I mention John 1:1 and John 20:28.

      Jesus said "I am", and I wrote that He is referring to "I am who I am" from Exodus 3:14.

      The identifiers provided by the Apostle John in 20:31 does not include (1) priest, yet Lord Jesus is Priest, (2) prophet, yet Lord Jesus is Prophet, (3) king, yet Lord Jesus is King, and (4) God, yet Lord Jesus is God according to the Scirptures. The whole of what John wrote is to believe that Jesus is the Anointed One, the Promised One written of by the prophets and since that writing of John states that Jesus is God (John 1:1 and John 20:28), then it clearly follows that Jesus is God. If you do not believe what I have written, then you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ.

      You very dangerously attempt to separate the meaning of "Word" in John 1:1 ( http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-1.htm ), midstream. That word is Logos in the Greek, and it is referring to Lord Jesus as all of John's writing of the "Word" refers to Lord Jesus. You have even added a word to John 1:1, the word "with" at the end of the verse, and that word "with" does not appear in the Greek, not even the interlinear from the Watchtower Society shows "with" in the Greek text because the word "with" is not there.

      The Apostle Peter's writing that I mention concurs with the Greek interlinear; therefore Peter is right and you are wrong. Peter referred to Lord Jesus as God.

      PlanksAndNails, everything I pointed out clearly states that Lord Jesus is God in the person of the Son of God, and you fail in your attempt to twist the clear and conspicuous meaning of the Word of God. You have added to (or subscribe to a false writing of) Holy Scripture (the word "with" in John 1:1) in an attempt to change God. Cry out to Jesus, PlanksAndNails, the Jesus Who is God, or you will die in your sins.

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Kermos,

      You are a pompous Trinitarian who believes in Catholic doctrine trying to use fear tactics that I will die in my sins. You people all act the same when someone likes to poke holes in their doctrines. Why don't you acknowledge and ignore may last comments to you on your eisegesis in the Scripture references you used in your last comment to me.

      You stated,

      (((If you do not believe what I have written, then you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ.)))

      That's a good one!

      FYI, I never said that Jesus is not the Christ, but I guess you must resort to putting words in my mouth.

      Here is a very remarkable and informative fact: If one had a copy of an English Bible in any of the eight English versions available prior to 1582, one would gain a very different sense from the opening verses of John: “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. All things came into being through it, and without it nothing was made that was made.”

      “All things came into being through it [the word],” not “through him.” And so those English versions did not rush to the conclusion, as does the King James Version of 1611 (influenced by the Roman Catholic Rheims version, 1582) and its followers, that the word was a person, the Son, before the birth of Jesus. If all things were made through “the word,” as an “it,” a quite different meaning emerges. The “word” would not be a second person existing alongside God the Father from eternity. The result: one of the main planks of traditional systems about members in the Godhead would be removed.

      There is more to be said about that innocent sentence: “In the beginning was the word.” There is no justification in the original Greek for placing a capital “W” on “word,” and thus inviting readers to think of a person. That is an interpretation imposed on the text, added to what John wrote. But was that what he intended? The question is, what would John and his readers understand by “word”? Quite obviously there are echoes of Genesis 1:1ff here: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...and God said [using His word], ‘Let there be light.’ ” “God said” means “God uttered His word,” the medium of His creative activity, His powerful utterance. Psalm 33:6 had provided commentary on Genesis: “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.” And so in John 1:1, God expressed His intention, His word, His self-revealing, creative utterance. But absolutely nothing in the text, apart from the intrusive capital letter on “word” in our versions, turning word into a proper noun, would make us think that God was in company with another person, or Son. The word which God spoke was in fact just “the word of God,” the expression of Himself. And one’s word is not another person, obviously.

      You stated,

      (((Jesus said "I am", and I wrote that He is referring to "I am who I am" from Exodus 3:14.)))

      You presume that "ego eimi," or "I am" was a Greek way of saying God's name "Yahweh." This is not true. If that is the case then Christ said, "Before Abraham was, Yahweh."

      Am I also to believe Gabriel identified himself as Yahweh at Luke 1:19 when he said, "I am (ego eimi) Gabriel?"

      At Luke 22:33, when Peter said to Christ, "I am (ego eimi) prepared to go to prison with you and to death?"

      By using "ego eimi" was Peter also claiming to be Yahweh also?

      When John said, "I am (ego eimi) not the Christ," are we expected to believe it really means John the Baptist was identifying himself as Yahweh who is not the Christ? (John 1:20)

      When the centurion said, "I am (ego eimi) a man under authority (Matthew 8:9), are we to believe this really meant, "Yahweh a man under authority" and the centurion was claiming to be Yahweh?

      When Christ said one of his disciples would betray him and Judas literally said, "Not I am (ego eimi) Lord?" are we to believe this really meant Judas was claiming to be Yahweh and Yahweh was going to betray Christ (Matthew 26:25)?

      Why aren't Trinitrians being consistent with the term ego eimi in many other passages?

      The implications of the Trinitarian claim are disturbingly ridiculous.

      In the Greek Septuagint, the actual divine name revealed to Moses was not, "ego eimi," as you are suggesting. God's divine name is "ego eimi ho ōn," which means "I am the being," or "I am the existence," or "I am the existent one," or some similar idea.

      Also, English translations that read as, "I AM sent me to you" are not translating "ego eimi sent me to you" from the Greek. The Septuagint Greek actually reads "ho ōn sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14).

      Several people use the words "ego eimi" many times in the New Testament. These words were part of their common everyday vocabulary. The expression "ego eimi" was common to everyday language for Greeks just as the words "I am" are common to our everyday language in English. Nobody regarded "ego eimi" as two Greek words uniquely reserved as the divine name of their God.

      A blind man in the next chapter identifies himself by saying, "I am" (ego eimi).

      You are trying to turn a routine language expression into the divine name of God to disingenuously suit your doctrinal purposes.

      Observe how these two men identify themselves by saying, "ego eimi."

      And Asahel pursued Abner, and as he went, he turned neither to the right hand nor to the left from following Abner. Then Abner looked behind him and said, “Is that you, Asahel?” And he answered, "I AM" (i.e. “It is I.”) (2 Samuel 2:19-20).

      Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, “Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?” Others were saying, “This is he,” still others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, "I AM" John 9:8-9

      I strongly suggest that you go through this video series as it will expose the Trinity doctrine for what it is.

      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLST2Y3MIb4D...

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      Kermos 3 months ago

      PlanksAndNails,

      From the Tyndale translation of 1525 A.D.:

      In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word. The same was in the beginning with god. All things were made by it, and without it, was made no thing, that made was. In it was life, And life was the light of men, And the light shineth in the darkness, and darkness comprehended it not.

      That word "It" is Autos, a pronoun meaning "Him" - I like to capitalize references to Lord Jesus as respect due to God. Here again is the interlinear for John 1:1 (the large right arrow will proceed through the verses - this way you can get all the way to verse 5 - after all, you did skip verse 2 in your quotation in the seventh paragraph of your comment):

      http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-1.htm

      I'll insert the NASB translation, from the Lockman Foundation, of John 1:1-5

      In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

      God is so very amazing and full of lovingkindness! See that which God did for us: (1) God tells us WHEN "In the beginning was the Word", (2) God tells us WHERE "the Word was with God", (3) God tells us WHO "the Word was God", and (4) God joins the "when", "where", and "Who" by the additive conjunction - the logical "and". All of these are true.

      Something special arrives in verse 2, "He was in the beginning with God." All of this places Lord Jesus, the Word, the Son of God, all the way back in Genesis 1:

      In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

      Behold, the heavens and the earth were created by God, and His Name is YHWH, after all YHWH Elohim is the Father, Son, and Spirit. Behold, "Let there be light"!!! Not only is there a picture of Jesus, but there is also the Word "Let there be light"! This is no coincidence. John's writings are not an accident. the Apostle John takes the Word back to the beginning.

      PlanksAndNails, the Apostle John clearly and decisively explains that the "Word" in "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host" (Psalm 33:6) is the Lord Jesus.

      The Apostle John identifies the Word in this sentence: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (1:14). Behold, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us", the "Word" is referring to Lord Jesus incarnate.

      I repeat, Jesus said "I am" in John 8:58, and Lord Jesus is referring to "I am who I am" from Exodus 3:14 at the burning bush. All of your examples, Peter, Judas, the centurion have context which exposes the qualification their sentences, for example, Peter did not say "I am." (end-of-sentence-with-no-context-pre-or-post), rather, he said "I am prepared to go to prison with you and to death". The Lord Jesus said something so very telling when He revealed His existence being before Abraham, so very special. May God open your eyes to the precious truth that the Messiah is God, and the Messiah is Jesus.

      I do not claim to be a Trinitarian because we do not find the word Trinity in the Word of God; however, we do find Polycarp allegedly identifying Lord Jesus as God (a purported disciple of the Apostle John, and Polycarp was martyred about 155 A.D.) and also Clement of Alexandria (not Rome - as you seem to enjoy calling out "Roman Catholicism heresy", wrote using the word Trinity - and Clement lived one hundred years before Constantine).

      By the way, the Jews knew exactly that Lord Jesus meant that He is God, which is evidenced in their desire to stone Him.

      Here is the interlinear of Exodus 3:14 that shows precisely the same Hebrew word for "I AM" twice, sandwiching the word "WHO".

      http://biblehub.com/interlinear/exodus/3-14.htm

      You can see several sources, all of which have the same pattern for "I AM" and "WHO" in them here:

      http://biblehub.com/text/exodus/3-14.htm

      And, you can look at this, another separate interlinear, which contains the Hebrew words for "I AM", yet the English translation is different for between the two words:

      http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTp...

      You can not successfully escape the context of King Jesus' words when He said "Before Abraham was, I AM". All of your intellectual endeavor leads to eternal wrath for you.

      In saying "Before Abraham was, I AM", Lord Jesus propounded the doctrine of the Christ's divinity. The context is clear to those that God grants the Holy Spirit.

      The Holy Spirit reveals, so I expounded the conclusion when I wrote - keyword "then" - "then you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ." This written because you deny the Lord Jesus by your denial that Lord Jesus is God. The Holy Scriptures reveal that Lord Jesus is God, as in Isaiah 9:6 ("Mighty God"), as in John 1:1 ("the Word was God" - last phrase of the verse), as in John 20:28 ("My Lord and my God!").

      God sends me to inform you that you are deceived and deceiving - drenched in the doctrines of demons. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the One True God. My Lord and my God!

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Kermos,

      You stated,

      (((You can not successfully escape the context of King Jesus' words when He said "Before Abraham was, I AM". All of your intellectual endeavor leads to eternal wrath for you.)))

      (((God sends me to inform you that you are deceived and deceiving - drenched in the doctrines of demons. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the One True God. My Lord and my God!)))

      You can do away with your manipulative tactics. I am all too familiar with people like you who like to say to others who are in disagreement that there is eternal wrath for them. You are being little too hasty in your claims of being God's appointed messenger.

      What sect, or church denomination do you belong to?

      As I stated before, the Greek “I am he” is not the same as the declaration of God’s name in Exodus 3:14, where God says “I am the one who exists” (ego eimi ‘o ohn). This title is referred to the Father, never to the Son. It designates the Father not the Son in Rev. 1:8 (‘o ohn).

      It is clear in John 8:58 and 17:5 do not speak of a real pre-existence of Christ. We must not treat these verses in isolation, but understand them in their context. The saying in John 8:58, “Before Abraham came to be, I am” was prompted by the fact that Christ's opponents had countered his remark in verse 51 by saying that He was not greater than Abraham, or the prophets (v. 53). As the Messiah commissioned by God, Christ is conscious of being in fact superior to Abraham and the prophets. For this reason he replies that Abraham had “seen his day,” i.e. the entrance of Christ on his historical ministry, and “had rejoiced to see” that day. And Christ strengthens his argument by adding the statement, which sounded strange to the Jews, that he had even been “before Abraham."

      This last saying must be understood in connection with verse 56. Christ speaks in verses 55, 56 and 58 as if his present ministry on earth stretches back to the time of Abraham and even before. His sayings were perceived by the Jews in this sense and rejected as nonsense. But Christ obviously did not (in v. 56) mean that Abraham had actually experienced his appearance on earth and seen it literally. He was referring to Abraham’s spiritual vision of his appearance on earth, by which Abraham, at the birth of Isaac, had foreseen at the same time the promised Messiah, and had rejoiced at the future prospect of the greater one (the Messiah) who would be Israel’s descendant. Christ's reference to his existence before Abraham’s birth must be understood in the same sense. There is no sudden heavenly preexistence of the Messiah here: the reference is again obviously to his earthly existence. And this earthly existence is precisely the existence of the Messiah. As such, it was not only present in Abraham’s mind, but even before his time, as the subject of God’s foreordination and foresight. The sort of preexistence Christ has in mind is “ideal” [in the world of ideas and plans]. In accordance with this consciousness of being the Messiah preordained from the beginning, Christ can indeed make the claim to be greater than Abraham and the prophets (John 8:58).

      In John 17:5, Christ asks the Father to give him now the heavenly glory which he had with the Father before the world was. The conclusion that because Christ possessed a pre-existent glory in heaven he must also have pre-existed personally in heaven is taken too hastily. This is proven by Matthew 6:20 (“Lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven”), 25:34 (“Come, you blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”), Colossians 1:5 (“the hope which is laid up for you in heaven about which you heard in the word of Truth, the Gospel”), and 1 Peter 1:4 (“an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, which does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you”).

      Thus, a reward can also be thought of as pre-existent in heaven. Such a reward is destined for human beings and already held in store, to be awarded to them at the end of their life. So it is with heavenly glory which Christ requests. He is not asking for a return to an earlier heavenly condition. Rather, he asks God to give him now, at the end of his work as Messiah on earth (v. 4 ), the heavenly reward which God had appointed from eternity for him, as Messiah. As the Messiah and Son he knows he has been loved and foreordained by the Father from eternity (v. 24 ). Both John 8:58 and 17:5 are concerned with God’s predetermination of the Messiah.

      The claim of Christ is in all four of the gospels to be the Messiah of Israel and this claim is fully endorsed in John’s specific purpose statement that his gospel is designed to bring about belief in the Messiah, the Son of God (20:31), certainly not in a second one who is God in an expanded Shema.

      The Messianic claim “I am he,” “I am the one” runs like a golden thread throughout the narrative of John’s gospel. Its basis is laid in the conversation with the woman at the well. “‘I know that the Messiah is coming’...‘I who speak to you am he’” (“I am he, namely the one speaking to you,” 4:25, 26).

      As the Saviour, Christ is the one we must not fail to believe in, lest we die in our sins (8:24), and in 8:56, the Messiahship of the Son of God was foreseen by Abraham who looked forward to his day. Indeed, even before Abraham was born, “I am he” (8:58). The Greek here is identical with the phrase in 4:26 and 8:24 and is parallel to Christ's grand statements, “I am the Good Shepherd” (10:11), “I am the way, the truth and the life” (14:6). He is the only way to the Father (14:6).

      You fail to acknowledge my first comment to you and the “proof” verses that you used. I have replied. Why do you ignore them???

      You stated,

      (((By the way, the Jews knew exactly that Lord Jesus meant that He is God, which is evidenced in their desire to stone Him.)))

      This is false. Why use the testimony of liars and murderers. Let's use the words of Christ and what they wanted to stone him. If you would have looks at the links I gave you, you woouldn’t be making this stement. This shows that you are not really interested in having a theological discussion, but really a self-appointed mouthpiece, but does not want to hear. This is the symptom of heavy indoctrination.

      Have you ever though that the Jewish leaders were lying when making their accusations against Christ?

      “The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD.” - John 10:33

      Is this really true?

      No, Christ tells them the real reason why they are going to stone him in the previous verse.

      Jesus answered them, “I have shown you MANY GOOD WORKS FROM THE FATHER; FOR WHICH OF THEM ARE YOU GOING TO STONE ME? – John 10:32

      Are you going to believe the lies of the Jewish leaders?

      Are we to believe that Christ had a demon too?

      Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” The crowd answered, “YOU HAVE A DEMON! Who is seeking to kill you?” - John 7:19-20

      It should be obvious that the Jewish crowd were liars, but the Trinitarian wants to use false testimony from the Jewish crowd to support their false claim that Christ is God. The Jewish leaders cause, or reason to kill him was false. In fact, Christ gave the real reason why the Jews wished to kill him.

      The world cannot hate you, but IT HATES ME BECAUSE I TESTIFY ABOUT IT THAT ITS WORKS ARE EVIL. – John 7:7

      Has not Moses given you the law? YET NONE OF YOU KEEPS THE LAW. WHY DO YOU SEEK TO KILL ME?” – John 7:19

      Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and DOES NOT STAND IN THE TRUTH, BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRUTH IN HIM. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, FOR HE IS A LIAR AND THE FATHER OF LIES. – John 8:43-44

      The real reason the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Christ was he exposed who they were as liars and hypocrites!

      Are we to side with and agree with liars and hypocrites in a desperate attempt to prove Christ is God?

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Kermos,

      Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” – John 20:28

      When all the evidence is honestly weighed, there is simply no doubt that Thomas was affirming Christ’s earlier teaching to him, that to see and believe in him was to see and believe in the Father. Christ declared/explained the Father in terms of everything he said and did. He is the Way to the Father and through him we know the Father. Christ explained that they saw the Father when they saw him because the Father abiding in him did the works.

      How much more then was the Father abiding in that dead body which had the Father had risen from the dead by the power of His Holy Spirit?

      Since seeing Christ meant seeing the Father, Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God. Thomas is confessing what the entire Gospel of John is about.

      Christ made the Father known to the people of the world. The only begotten declares/explains the Father. For that reason, to see Christ is to see the Father. To see the Lord Jesus is to see the Father, our God, and Jesus Christ's God.

      Blessed are you Thomas. Because you have SEEN, you have believed. - John 20:29 

      He who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me.

      He who sees me SEES Him who sent me. - John 12:44-45

      That is the meaning of, "My Lord and my God."

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      Kermos 3 months ago

      Poor PlanksAndNails,

      You cast slurs at me again and again. You truly do not know love. I want to see you saved, and this is love.

      There is no denomination in Christ. There is straightaway the body of Christ, the assembly of God, the ecclesia. Man makes denominations. We gather in homes. Church is a different beast; however, you twist Scriputure about the very being of God in Christ Jesus, so I will no longer entertain this course of conversation. You are in disagreement with the Apostle John, the Apostle Peter, the Apostle Thomas, and the very Word of God. You even try to make Thomas' words "My Lord and my God" to not mean what it clearly states.

      Here is John 8:58-59:

      Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

      They stone for blasphemy - here is John 10:33:

      The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out [to be] God."

      To further illuminate the truth, here is Luke 5:17-26 that clearly shows the Jews recognized Lord Jesus' claim to be God:

      One day He was teaching; and there were [some] Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting [there], who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and [from] Jerusalem; and the power of the Lord was [present] for Him to perform healing. And [some] men [were] carrying on a bed a man who was paralyzed; and they were trying to bring him in and to set him down in front of Him. But not finding any [way] to bring him in because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down through the tiles with his stretcher, into the middle [of the crowd], in front of Jesus. Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you." The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this [man] who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins," He said to the paralytic "I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home." Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God. They were all struck with astonishment and [began] glorifying God; and they were filled with fear, saying, "We have seen remarkable things today."

      Only God has the authority to forgive sins, PlanksAndNails, and Lord Jesus has the authority. Lord Jesus is God.

      The Jews denied Jesus; however, as Lord Jesus pointed out that the Jews are "to whom the word of God came" (John 10:35), so it supports that Jesus is God to point out that when Lord Jesus pronounced that He is God that they picked up stones! You see, the liars wanted to stone Him Who is God - the Jewish leaders lied about Lord Jesus being God. But, we have yet another instance in Luke chapter 5.

      PlanksAndNails, you say again and again that the Scripture states something that contradicts the very Scripture. By definition, that is twisting Scripture.

      The Glory of God is intimately intertwined with God. Thus, Lord Jesus had the glory of God before the incarnation, after all, the end of John 1:1 clearly states "the Word was God".

      Poor PlanksAndNails, you can not see the truth, but the Lord Jesus, Who is God, can open your eyes, and I have been praying that He does. May the Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes.

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Kermos,

      You stated,

      (((Only God has the authority to forgive sins, PlanksAndNails, and Lord Jesus has the authority. Lord Jesus is God.)))

      Nope.

      Who can forgive sins?

      Answer:

      The human being whom God gave authority to forgive sins. The man Jesus of Nazareth that's who! And not only Jesus of Nazareth, but since his resurrection there are others as well.

      Your promotion of your doctrine clearly reveal their total disregard for the real message in deference to promoting your creedal traditions. You make the very same mistake as the Pharisees made in this account. It is the Pharisees who insisted only God can forgive sins, but you love to use them as you witness.

      Are you getting the picture yet?

      The very point of this account is to illustrate how Jesus demonstrated the Pharisees were dead wrong.

      Let's note what Jesus says in the same account written by the hand of Matthew:

      "But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins, he then said to the paralytic, "Rise, take up your bed and go home" - Matthew 9:6

      Notice what Christ does here. The Pharisees charge that only God can forgive sins. But Christ tells them that the Son of man has authority to forgive sins on earth and he is healing the paralytic to prove to these Pharisees with this sign that he has this authority. He asks, "Which is easier?" Is it easier to do a miracle or forgive a man's sins? Obviously, it is the latter. So Jesus does the more difficult to prove that he has the authority to do the easier thing. Man was given this authority and Christ is demonstrating to the Pharisees that their notion that God alone can forgive sins is in error.

      Now let us carefully note what Matthew has to say in his parallel account of Mark's account:

      "When the crowds saw it, they were awestruck, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men (Matthew 9:8).

      Yes, the crowds were quite amazed by the fact that God had given such authority to men to forgive sins. Christ had proven the Pharisees to be completely wrong.

      Notice how we are told that God gave this authority to men, clearly showing us that Christ as a man was given this authority by his God. So, what more do we need to say here? You allude to Mark 2:7 to promote your doctrine is an absolutely appalling example of your error. The passage demonstrates that the Pharisaical notion that only God could forgive sins was wrong and Matthew writes that the crowds were amazed that God had given such authority to forgive sins to men.

      We should also take note here that God is distinguished from the man Christ in this passage. Perhaps, one could make up a little story here that the crowds didn't realize Christ was God yet. Well, that wouldn't make any difference at all. Matthew wrote this passage under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and he said that God had indeed given such authority to men, and the man who had been given this authority, happened to be Christ the Nazarene.

      Let's look at Mark's parallel passage and we will insert the phrase Matthew left out of the same account in his Gospel.

      And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed, and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son. Your sins are forgiven." And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming. [Who can forgive sins but God alone?]" But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, "Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, "Rise and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins," he then said to the paralytic, "Rise, take up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were in awe, and they glorified God who had given such authority to MEN." - Matthew 9:2-8; Mk 2:7).

      If anything this passage militates heavily against your presuppositions because it illustrates that God gave authority to men in the giving of this authority to the man Jesus. It not only distinguishes God from the man Jesus, but it also shows us that if Jesus was God, why would he need to be given this authority from God in the first place? After all, Trinitarians claim Jesus assumed humanity and did not leave behind his divinity. But here we see God had given him that authority. Now that we have demonstrated these facts, the Trinitarian has no alternative but to claim God gave this to Jesus "in his humanity."

      But what will do that for him?

      One minute he claims that Jesus can do certain things "because he is God" and the next minute is insisting God had to give him this authority "became he was a man."

      So which is it?

      God did not give authority to a human nature; God gave authority to a person because that person was himself a man.

      Your apologetic is once again is shown to be extremely disingenuous. The passages themselves tell us that the reason

      Christ was forgiving this man's sins was that he as a man who was given authority to do so by God, not because he was God, and so the Trinitarian finds himself not serving the teaching of Jesus but falling down flat on the side of the Pharisees.

      Jesus gives this same authority to his apostles. After he rose from the dead, he breathed the Holy Spirit upon them and told them that if they forgave the sins of any they were forgiven and if they retained the sins of any they were retained. Before Jesus said this he said, "As the Father sent me, I also send you" and breathed the Spirit into them.

      When Jesus was baptized at the Jordan, he was given authority in the same way by the Spirit to forgive sins. And later, he sent his Apostles to do the very same thing. God has granted this authority to men through His Holy Spirit that lives in these men who do forgive sins in his name. And the Father sent Jesus, now he also sent his Apostles. This is why they baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. They had the authority given to them to do these things in the name of Jesus by the Spirit he gave them just as Jesus did these things in the name of his God and Father. As he himself said on this occasion, "Just as the Father sent me, I now send you."

      The teaching in this gospel is that God had given authority to forgive sins to men. To prove he had this authority, he asked which was greater, to forgive sins, or to heal a crippled man. And so he healed a crippled man to prove he was given the authority to forgive sins.

      We are plainly told by Peter that God had anointed him with such authority (Acts 2:22; 10:38; cf. Luke 4:18).

      Who can forgive sins but God alone?

      Those who have been given that authority in the Holy Spirit. And the man Jesus was given that authority by God at the Jordan. Indeed it is by God dwelling in Jesus in the Spirit that sins were forgiven.

      The very point of this narrative is to demonstrate that God had given authority to a man, the man Jesus, to forgive sins. And Jesus demonstrates to the Pharisees that he had been given this authority by doing the greater miracle, healing the paralytic.

      You have to throw out the indoctrination that has been seared into you and you will see Scripture with new lenses. It is good that you are not part of the institutional church system, but you have the baggage of the Trinity doctrine that is part of the harlot system that you must get rid of.

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      Kermos 3 months ago

      I write of Lord Jesus, my Lord and my God, and the promise that is in Him!

      PlankAndNails, You ignore the plain and simple fact that the basis of the pharisees attack against Jesus is Jesus' claim of being God. Like you, PlanksAndNails. the pharisees claim Jesus is not God, and they desired to stone Him for the claim. As God, Lord Jesus did good works, He already said that He is God when He said "Before Abraham was, I am" which referred back to Exodus 3:14 when God identified Himself as "I AM WHO I AM".

      PlanksAndNails, in Matthew 9:8, the crowds (1) marvelled then (2) glorified God - then after the "glorified God" the following occurs "who had given such authority to men". Hmm, that "glorified God" is directly connected to that "who had given such authority to men". Men are made to glorify God. Rebellious men glorify in their ignorance of their Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is God in the flesh. God gave the Son of Man authority, and the Son of God is God. Jesus is the Son of Man, Jesus is the Son of God. God gave the Son of Man authority, and the Son of God has been God all along. The point of the passage is that Jesus can do the physical - heal - and the spiritual reserved to God alone - forgive sins.

      I just love how the Holy Spirit can have more than one meaning for a sentence, so with Matthew 9:8, the "crowds" are mentioned, and "who had given such authority to men". In the Old Testament, we find priests. Lord Jesus is Priest. The priests had been given a special spot among men, to offer the sacrifice for atonement of sin.

      Also, Matthew records "crowds" in 9:8, so it is not attributed to God.

      Matthew 9:8 needs to be taken in context to Matthew 23:23, Lord Jesus said "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." Notice that Lord Jesus indicated that the scribes and Pharisees paid attention to the law, but not the weightier provisions. You see, PlanksAndNails, there were things from the Law which the Pharisees expounded, and one such item that the pharisees have correct is that only God can forgive sins.

      Oh, and lest forgetful creatures look awry, it is written "I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins" (Isaiah 43:25). Behold, PlanksAndNails, that God is the one who forgives sin. See that the Word of God does not say one of the ones! The Word of God shows that only God can forgive sins.

      Furthermore, I clarify that Lord Jesus spoke "If you forgive the sins of any, [their sins] have been forgiven them" to the Apostles, the Apostle John (20:23) records this as occuring AFTER the resurrection, so back when Lord Jesus forgave the sin of the paralytic it is written no one except God could forgive sins.

      Here is more intensive examination of the Word of God about forgiving sins is necessary here. 'He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, [their sins] have been forgiven them; if you retain the [sins] of any, they have been retained"' (John 20:23). Any person that is led by the Holy Spirit will be doing the will of the Father in heaven. Lord Jesus breathed on them first then said "Receive the Holy Spirit" then He talked about forgiving sins. The order of the Word is important. Since the Holy Spirit is God, when the Holy Spirit tabernacling/dwelling in a person drives the person to forgive sins, then the forgiveness is by God.

      I say Jesus walked the earth. You say Jesus walked the earth. Both of us are correct on this count. So, the Jews, even though they are liars, had truth mixed in with their lies, and the truth is that only God can forgive sins.

      In all these instances recorded by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in which the Lord Jesus forgives sins, He displays His Deity, and the pharisees are aware that the actions of Lord Jesus display His declaration of being God.

      Forgiveness of sins is in the Blood of Jesus. Only God is perfect with the capability to pay the price for sin, so God redeemed His people (the Ecclesia); therefore, the Messiah's Blood covers sin, see Isaiah 43:25 as well as all of Isaiah 53 including Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:14, 1 Peter 2:24, 1 John 1:7, Ephesians 1:7, Acts 20:28, John 6:53.

      PlanksAndNails, you attempt to dispute the indisputable by way of twisting the clear meaing in the Word of God. Don't forget, "the Word was God" in John 1:1 and "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28 and "Before Abraham was, I am" in John 8:58. Every one of those clearly declare the glory of God that is Lord Jesus, yet you deny the plain and straightforward truth outlined in each of these and the many other instances that God had me place in front of you! In this you retain your sin. You wrote, (((One minute he claims that Jesus can do certain things "because he is God" and the next minute is insisting God had to give him this authority "became he was a man."))), and thw Word of God clearly addresses your comment. God sets the rules, and God sets the stage, and God makes things happen. Lord Jesus is God, and this is according to the Holy Scriptures. There is the Son of Man and there is the Son of God that He reveals as He sees fit when He sees fit. May the Lord Jesus grant you Godly sorrow that leads to repentance!

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      charlie 3 months ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

      kermos- you are well indoctrinated in your false belief BUT YOU PICK AND CHOOSE which is done by all those who espouse false doctrines. sceipture CLEARLY says Jess is the Son of God and also says GOD has given Him ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND EARTH until the JUDGEMENT WHEN He HANDS OVER THE KINGDOM TO HIS FATHER,

      It seems you do not understand the ALL SCRIPTURE supports ALL OTHER SCRIPTURE and if something does not then you have a false belief.

      Matt 27:43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

      John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."

      John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

      1 John 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

      Matt 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen

      1 Cor 15:24-28 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

      Even the demons KNOW THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.

      Matt 8:29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

      NKJV

      Each if the scriptures I have quoted have at least 1 to 10 or more other scriptures saying the same thing.

      I suggest you get an interlinear bible to check your understanding instead of a translation like the one you are using, Abn interlinear translates word by word not the understanding of the persons writing it.

      L also suggest you re read both parts of this teaching and check the scriptures used as t is clear you only read it with your false understanding in mind, Scripture DEMANDS that we check check ALL thing to see if they are of God whicj you clearly have not done, you applied your false doctrine instead of true scripture to check which is a violation of the scriptural command.

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Kermos,

      Your problem is that your doctrines are based around "proof" texts that are ambiguous. The clear unambiguous words in Scripture are that Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son that you keep pushing. You are taking your "proof" texts and proselytizing with them. Any disagreement is deemed as "dying in your sins," because you have appointed yourself as "God's messenger."

      These are the cliche manipulative tactics of someone who is heavily indoctrinated.

      You have ignored the links I have given you in my earlier comments because you keep bringing up the same "proof" passages over and over that are already covered in the links. It is clear that you are only concerned about being a mouthpiece while willfully choosing to ignore the evidence of your presuppositions.

      You stated,

      (((I do not claim to be a Trinitarian because we do not find the word Trinity in the Word of God)))

      This is a tell-tale sign of heavy indoctrination as you cannot think for yourself as you refer to yourself in the plural as, "we."

      I used to be a Trinitarian and I am quite familiar with all of their "proof" verses. I have written many articles on this subject and will not be swayed because "Kermos says so."

      You stated,

      (((God sends me to inform you that you are deceived and deceiving - drenched in the doctrines of demons.)))

      That is not how it works, Kermos

      It is only those who have the anointing and authority that is given by God that will be recognized as such. Self-appointed men and women are a dime a dozen today.

      You might want to note that it states in Scripture that the Holy Spirit will guide is into the truth, not Kermos. You might want to do a re-evaluation.

      Here are two article that cover the consequences of believing that "Jesus is God." Take heed.

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Trini...

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Trini...

      Here is some other food for thought:

      Before any significant studies can be done on the prologue of John’s Gospel, the nature and definition of the Logos must be sketched out. Logos is the Greek word translated as word, account, or statement. In the Greek Septuagint, it translates the Hebrew word davar, which shows up over 1400 times. It carries the same lexical range of meanings that its Greek counterpart does. One thing is abundantly clear when looking at how the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, and the Greek New Testament use their respected phrases for “word” is that in not one of their occurrences does it denote a person in the sense that you, or I am a person.

      While saying this, it is important to note that during the inter-testamental period there was an increasing tendency for Jews to recognize the transcendence of the God whom they worshipped. In various places where the Hebrew Bible described the actions of God, the “word” was said in place. The Jewish Targums contain many of these examples:

      Ex. 19:17- Moses brought forth the people to meet with God

      Ex. 19:17 Targum- Moses brought forth the people to meet the word of God.

      Ex. 31:13- [the Sabbath] is a sign between Me and you.

      Ex. 31:13 Targum- is a sign between My word and you.

      Deut. 9:3- God is a consuming fire.

      Deut. 9:3 Targum- The word is a consuming fire.

      Isa. 48:13- By My hand I laid the foundation of the earth.

      Isa. 48:13 Targum- By my word I have founded the earth.

      It seems rather clear by the evidence that the Jews could use the “word of God” interchangeably with “God,” and yet still be faithful to the meanings they expressed in the Hebrew Bible.

      Since God’s logos/davar, according to Genesis, is his creative speech, both wisdom literature and various texts from the Second Temple Period started describing the “word” in like manner. Since one’s word is formulated in the mind prior to speaking, the creative word is sometimes nuanced into “understanding,” “knowledge,” “wisdom,” and similar language.

      John 1:1-18 is in fact poetry. It is the construction of a writer who was skilled in chiastic poetry.

      When the "word" became flesh, it was the manifestation of God's plan and purpose through His Son. Jesus Christ, Yahshuah Messiah IS the Son of God.

      We cannot "cherry-pick" Scripture verses, but must glean off of the whole counsel of Scripture. The Father has explicitly stated who he is. Christ explicitly stated who he is. Yet, you want to ignore their words and resort to the witness of the Pharisees and force preconceived notions on certain ambiguous texts while at the same time claiming to be someone "sent by God."

      I'm sorry, I would have to be delusional to bow to your whims.

      Your doctrine is oppressive because you yourself oppress others with it. I choose to be free from the religions of Babylon.

    • profile image

      Kermos 3 months ago

      You bear false witness against me, celafoe.

      I declare that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God. That just wipes out a vast majority of your accusation.

      I declare that the Lord Jesus is God incarnate. Let's just look at the Holy Spirit inspired words of the Apostle John (1:1-5):

      In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

      http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-1.htm

      Behold, "the Word was God." Behold, that there would be no mistake, the Apostle John repeats the concept with "In the beginning was the Word" (John 1:1) followed shortly by "He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:2). The repetition is to drive the point home that the Apostle John is referring back to "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). The Apostle John wrote of antichrists that had come and are coming (1 John 2:18), and your wrong belief is antichrist, celafoe, after all in the Apostle John calls the Lord Jesus, He being the Word, God (see John 1:1).

      You, celafoe, and you, PLanksAndNails, being in darkness, do not comprehend it (John 1:5). You need to cry out to the Lord Jesus asking for release from your captivity of sin of denial of the Lord Jesus!

      Let's just see what the Apostle Thomas declared after the resurrection, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). That "my God" is clear, if you deny that Lord Jesus is God, you are now in opposition to two of the Apostles that are mentioned in this comment.

      '"Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us." is the testimony of the Apostle Matthew (1:23). Celafoe, that is the incarnate Lord Jesus Christ's identification, Immanuel. The Lord Jesus Christ is God with us, God with us! Yes, the Lord Jesus is the Son of God, the Son of Man, Immanuel, Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6), and Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6)! Now, celafoe, you are in disagreement with Apostle Matthew and the Prophet Isaiah, who lived more than 600 years before the arrival of the Messaiah, also known as Immanuel, also known as the Lord Jesus Christ, also know as God.

      'Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"' are the words recorded by the Apostle Matthew (16:16) of the Apostle Peter. Yet, behold the Apostle Peter's words AFTER the resurrection, "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1). That "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" reveals the Apostle Peter's understanding that the Savior Jesus Christ is God. Now, celafoe, you disagree with the Apostle Peter, too. the Lord Jesus remains the Son of God, that you hear, celafoe, but you deny that which the Apostle Peter clear said "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ"; therefore, you do not know the Lord Jesus Christ.

      "Before Abraham was, I am" are the words of the Apostle Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (8:58). He is referring back to the identity that God revealed to Moses of "I AM WHO I AM" (Exodus 3:14) at the burning bush, and the Lord Jesus stretches back to indicate His eternal existence by saying "before Abraham was". Now, poor celafoe, you call the Lord Jesus a liar. You deny the very Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ! Repent, and believe the good news of Jesus!

      The Word of God must be accurately handled (2 Timothy 2:15), precept upon precept, line upon line (Isaiah 28:10). I have shown you two of the interlinears that I use, which are word for word. I have included in this discussion all the interlinears that I use, but suffice it to say, without the Holy Spirit, the Word of God can not be understood. The Holy Spirit has made me His tabernacle, so the words I speak are accurately handled, precept upon precept, line upon line!

      PlankAndNails skipped verse 2 of John 1:1-5 in his destructive and wrong analysis of John 1:1-5. PlanksAndNails desires to change the meaning of John 1:1-5, but I, by the will of God, illuminated his deception. Since PlanksAndNails left out verse 2, I can say that PlanksAndNails wrongly handled the Word of God, and, in so doing, sinned. You celafoe, appear to heartily agree with PlanksAndNails sin.

      That is Scripture with Scripture, which I have done previously in the exchange with PlanksAndNails. You bear false witness. You are in violation of the Law of God, and you do not have a covering for your sin because you are deluded in belief - you do not know the Lord Jesus Christ.

      Now, to recap your disagreement is with the:

      - Apostle John

      - Apostle Thomas

      - Apostle Matthew

      - Apostle Peter

      - Eternal God, Lord Jesus Christ

      This, dear celafoe, is not a complete list of those recorded in Holy Scripture with whom you call liars. I will add one more in this comment, and this is God Himself (Hebrews 1:8):

      But of the Son [He says], "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

      The one saying this is God. Other words exist for "ruler", but God intentionally used "O GOD" in this passage, and God is the Master Orator. This is God talking of the Son, identifying the Son of God as God. This and the surrounding passage tells us that the Lord Jesus' God is Himself, and this fits perfectly since YHWH God is Father, Son, and Spirit. Oh, the majesty, beauty, and light!

      Be saved from the wicked generation celafoe and PlanksAndNails, repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the One True God!

    • profile image

      Kermos 3 months ago

      PlanksAndNails,

      The verses that I quote are ambiguous to you because you read the Scripture without the Holy Spirit.

      Let's see, the Apostle Thomas said to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). That is NOT ambiguous. That is precise and clear.

      In conjunction with all the other passages proclaimed to you, there is plenty of evidence that the Lord Jesus is God.

      We is the ecclesia. You, again, resort to attempting to cloud the issue because you are faced with the truth that God has had me put in front of you, and the devil wants you to go off on tangents.

      I point you to God, the Lord Jesus Christ, not to me. More misrepresentation of the devil coming from you, PlankAndNails.

      After our exchange here, and your misrepresentations and twisting of Scripture, your links are useless. I am here to proclaim the truth to you, the Jesus is God, and you are a person under the wrath of God because you do not believe in the Word of God.

      You fail to understand the spiritual significance of the Word. You say (((Before any significant studies can be done on the prologue of John's Gospel))), and you quoted John 20:31, "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" where you indicated NOTHING else would be needed. Now you say MORE is needed. In your carnal mind, you can not understand that the Word is the Lord Jesus and John the Apostle states it plainly in John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". This reconciles right back to John 1:1 in the final 4 words of that verse, which is the Word of God, "the Word was God." You flip-flop because the delusion of the devil drives you.

      Now, you quote the Targum, which is rabbinic commentaries about the Old Testament. YIKES, you have now jumped to call on the very people, the Jewish leaders that YOU called liars in an earlier comment of yours. Since the Word carries out the desires of God, in the very founding of the earth - which the Apostle John wrote of in John 1:1-3. The devil has used the rabbinic commentaries to delude you. You use the rabbinic commentaries to try to define the Holy Spirit inspired of the Apostle John! You are so very deceived, PlanksAndNails, repent, for the Word is the Lord Jesus as in John 1:14!

      Now, after you contradict yourself, you make the huge mental gymnastic flip-flop to write that John 1:1-18 is nothing more than chiastic poetry. PlanksAndNails, you are a wicked man with no righteousness in you. Repent, and believe the Gospel of Christ!

      You choose death because you are still going the wrong way, PlanksAndNails, that is all that the dead in sin can do. There is one name under heaven wherein there is salvation, Lord Jesus Christ, and this Jesus I tell you about is He, and He is God incarnate. May the Holy Spirit give you conviction that leads to salvation!

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Kermos,

      Let do a recap.

      You stated,

      (((The One True God that came to Earth bearing the Name of Jesus Christ clearly stated, as recorded by the Apostel John (8:24), "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.")))

      Here you cherry-pick this verse to say that unless I believe that Jesus is the great I AM referring to YHWH, then I will die in my sins. However, this is a false statement pertaining to this verse. This is a typical fear tactic that many religious leaders use to coerce their minions to believe what they say in spiritual Babylon.

      The Gospel is clearly stated in John 20:31: “But these are written that you may believe that JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

      I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, but you want to judge me that I will die in my sins because you want to believe that “I am” [ego eimi] in John 8:23 means the great I AM [ego eimi ho on] is Christ, rather what is written.

      You stated,

      (((Jesus said "I am", and I wrote that He is referring to "I am who I am" from Exodus 3:14.)))

      In the Greek Septuagint, the actual divine name revealed to Moses was not, "ego eimi," as you are suggesting. God's divine name is "ego eimi ho ōn," which means "I am the being," or "I am the existence," or "I am the existent one," or some similar idea.

      There is much more in my initial response to you.

      You then state,

      (((I repeat, Jesus said "I am" in John 8:58))

      Yes, you are parroting again your cherry-picked verse in isolation, but ignored my comment to you. I guess you must concede to imposing your own eisegesis on the text, and that is why you ignored my comments.

      You stated,

      (((You can not successfully escape the context of King Jesus' words when He said "Before Abraham was, I AM". All of your intellectual endeavor leads to eternal wrath for you.)))

      Well, I wrote out a lengthy comment to you, but you completely ignored it. I guess you must concede to imposing your own eisegesis on the text and that is why you keep ignoring my responses. This is typical behavior of pulpit peacock syndrome that is part of spiritual Babylon where one man wants to be the sole mouthpiece while ignoring everyone else.

      You stated,

      (((By the way, the Jews knew exactly that Lord Jesus meant that He is God, which is evidenced in their desire to stone Him.)))

      It was clearly shown in my response to you that the context of your statement was false because you were using the witness of the religious leaders of that day that Christ deemed to be liars. Additionally, Scripture was shown in the comment the reason why they wanted to stone using Christ’s own words. We see here again that your statement falls flat.

      Jesus answered them, “I have shown you MANY GOOD WORKS FROM THE FATHER; FOR WHICH OF THEM ARE YOU GOING TO STONE ME? – John 10:32

      You stated,

      (((Thomas, one of the twelve, called Jesus: "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)))

      You continue to imply this verse when I already responded to you. You are parroting ignorance.

      Do you see your pattern here?

      Thomas was affirming Christ’s earlier teaching to him, that to see and believe in him was to see and believe in the Father. It’s that simple. In the same way, others may see Christ working in us, but it does not make us literally Christ, just as the Father working in Christ does not make him literally Yahweh.

      Since you have again ignored my response to you; therefore, I guess you must be conceding that you imposed your own eisegesis into the text in isolation once again.

      You stated,

      (((“PlanksAndNails, you attempt to dispute the indisputable by way of twisting the clear meaing in the Word of God. Don't forget, "the Word was God" in John 1:1 and "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28 and "Before Abraham was, I am" in John 8:58.”

      Again, you keep repeating yourself. “Polly want a cracker!” Yet, you ignore my previous responses with repetitive willful ignorance. In blind arrogance you state, “you attempt to dispute the indisputable.”

      FYI,

      Just because Kermos says something does not make it so, especially when the pattern is, “Polly want a cracker!” over and over again. Get out of the cage of your indoctrination.

      You bring up John’s prologue many times, but these verses are ambiguous. This is just plain fact as there are countless amounts of literature based on it. Your claim to truth is more of an emotional connection that you have than being open at least to a different perspective in studying these verses.

      FYI,

      In the Greek Septuagint, “word” translates the Hebrew word davar, which shows up over 1400 times. It carries the same lexical range of meanings that its Greek counterpart does. One thing is abundantly clear when looking at how the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, and the Greek New Testament use their respected phrases for “word” is that in not one of their occurrences does it denote a person in the sense that you, or I am a person.

      There are whole books written about John prologue for and against the Trinity. Your assertions are narrow-minded where you demand something on ambiguous texts.

      You stated,

      ((("After our exchange here, and your misrepresentations and twisting of Scripture, your links are useless. I am here to proclaim the truth to you, the Jesus is God, and you are a person under the wrath of God because you do not believe in the Word of God.")))

      It's easy to let your emotions run wild. Many have this same delusion in their religious bubbles claiming the authority of God as a means to badger and bully others to conform to their own wills. However, outside the bubble, they are just simply paper tigers who like to troll others as a means to vent their frustrations. They are oppressed with man-made religion wanting to control others because someone is controlling them. It is sad really.

      Here is a verse that may help you come out of spiritual Babylon,

      So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” – John 8:31-31

      You will find truth when you find out what “my word” means.

      Since you do not want to refer to the links I have given you and keep parroting the same cherry-picked verses over and over again, we have nothing really to discuss.

      However, the links are still there if you want to come back one day and take the time to read them.

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Cont....

      You stated,

      (((Now, you quote the Targum, which is rabbinic commentaries about the Old Testament. YIKES, you have now jumped to call on the very people, the Jewish leaders that YOU called liars in an earlier comment of yours.)))

      You have really got yourself in a tizzy.

      It was Christ who called the Jewish leaders of his day liars. You are mistaking that because the Jews lied about Jesus in their witness against him that all their culture and way of thinking should not be ever taken into account.

      Your “logic” is that because the religious leaders lied about Christ at that time that ALL Jews are liars. In your words, “YIKES!

      I guess we must throw out Jewish history, even the Shema.

      Most Jewish readers of the Gospel of John would have been familiar with the concept of God’s “word” being with God as He worked to bring His creation into existence. There is an obvious working of God’s power in Genesis 1 as He brings His plan into concretion by speaking things into being. The Targums are well known for describing the wisdom and action of God as His “word.” This is especially important to note because the Targums are the Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Old Testament, and Aramaic was the spoken language of many Jews at the time of Christ. Although extra biblical, it shows their line of thought pertaining to God.

      The Jews were familiar with the idea of God’s word referring to His wisdom and action. This is especially important to note because these Jews were fiercely monotheistic, and did not in any way believe in a “Triune God.” They were familiar with the idioms of their own language, and understood that the wisdom and power of God were being personified as “word.”

      The logos, that is, the plan, purpose and wisdom of God, “became flesh” (came into concretion or physical existence) in Christ. Christ is the “image of the invisible God” (Col. 1:15) and His chief emissary, representative and agent. Because Christ perfectly obeyed the Father, he represents everything that God could communicate about Himself through His chosen vessel. As such, Christ could say, “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father” (John 14:9). The fact that the logos “became” flesh shows that it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence of Christ in this verse other than his figurative “existence” as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the “word” in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a “spirit-book” somewhere in eternity past, but it came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

      Lastly, it is in your delusion that you believe that have you have some sort of authority over others here. Don't waste your time with your carnal energies casting your judgements when your pattern is being willfully ignorant. Fortunately, there are many who were once in your same predicament who have come out of severe indoctrination. They were so sure of themselves, but later realized that the irony of their situation that is was they who needed to cast off the baggage of the harlot church system they wanted to hold on so dearly. Having been seared with the Trinity doctrine, or variants are the hardest for many to walk away from because it is their golden calf.

      Maybe, if you get over your cognitive dissonance, you will come back and look at the links I gave you and read my responses to you.

      Any further comments from you here will be deleted because all you are really doing is repeating yourself over and over again. It really is the pattern of someone who may be brainwashed and under the control of someone, or something else, especially when you have referred to yourself as “we.”

      Coming out of spiritual Babylon and discarding her doctrines allows the freedom to think, study and research all by yourself with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is no more parroting what someone has told you to say over and over while at the same time plugging your ears. This has been quite evident in the discourse.

      Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues – Revelation 18:4

    • profile image

      Kermos 3 months ago

      PlanksAndNails,

      You do not believe that Jesus is the Christ because you beleive that the Lord Jesus Christ is only man; therefore, you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ because the Christ is Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) along with the Christ's delcaration that "I am" as in the very words spoken by the Christ as recorded by the Apostel John (8:24), "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

      I have not ONCE said that the words spoken to Moses, as recorded in Exodus 3:14 are "ego eimi". Here is the interlinear for Exodus 3:14 which clearly and decisively shows "I AM WHO I AM":

      http://biblehub.com/interlinear/exodus/3-14.htm

      You persist in your denial of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Christ is all that was prophesied about Him, including Isaiah 9:6 where it is written "Mighty God".

      You fight the Apostle Thomas "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28) in which it is clear that the Apostle Thomas calls the Lord Jesus God!

      You contradict yourself, and you follow the doctrines of demons. Only the Lord Jesus can set you free!

      PlanksAndNails, you do not abide the Lord Jesus' word because you deny His word, "Before Abraham was, I am".

      You are the one that brought up the Jews were liars, and I merely pointed out your contradiction. I pointed out that not all that the Jews say is a lie, but it appears that you selectively forgot that point. The YIKES stands because you flip-flopped and you misguidedly attempt to use the Jewish leader commentary to defend your position of whom Jesus is.

      You fail to see the truth of the eternally existing Word, so here is John 1:1-5 again:

      In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

      That is the Word in the beginning, repeated.

      You keep repeating your wrong doctrine and false interpreation of the Word of God over and over again, PlanksAndNails. Repent, and believe the Gospel of Christ.

      Don't worry, PlanksAndNails, I have recorded my side of this correspondence elsewhere on the Internet for just such a threat as yours to delete the Truth.

      May the Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes to His Glorious Truth that Jesus is God!

    • Rich kelley profile image

      Rich Kelley 3 months ago from The Ekklesia

      Kermos

      (((The verses that I quote are ambiguous to you because you read the Scripture without the Holy Spirit.)))

      This is always said when a person trying to make an unscriptural point has been shown by the very word of God that what they believe is wrong. It is only God that can call things that are not as though they are, everyone else when they do it are usually deceived liars.

      You have repeated the same explanation of John's writing and being wrong the first time didn't change the second time. You can continue to repeat an incorrect understanding of the word but that is not going to suddenly make it correct. There is no light in the dark understanding you are twisting to suit the doctrines of men that you believe.

      Having been deceived by the angel of light you have been distracted into defending man's dogma. The topic you have chosen to deceive others with is not part of the gospel the Messiah told his disciples to tell to others.

      You and the majority of professing Christians have chosen to fabricate a Greek mindset about gods into the scripture. The desire to become as gods has been the down fall of man from the beginning. When the explanation of something has to be justified by "I have special powers" not in evidence, one can be sure that they are wrong.

    • celafoe profile image

      charlie 3 months ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

      kermos- you said "You bear false witness against me, celafoe. I declare that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God. That just wipes out a vast majority of your accusation.

      I declare that the Lord Jesus is God incarnate"

      First, I do not bear false witness, but you do that to me. The two statements above from you contradict each other. If Jesus is the Son of God, which He clearly IS, then He cannot be the Father, which He clearly is not.

      It is amazing how people like you promoting false doctrines parrot their doctrines of men but when confronted with scripture exposing them ALWAYS neglect to reply to the scriptures that expose them and just repeat their little (or big) learned speil that is supposed to prove their point, but does not, it just proves their false indoctrination.

      I am talking about the scripture that you completely ignored, 1 Cor 15:24-28

      You have maligned me and I rebuke you for you sin and command you to repent in the NAME OF THE TRUE JESUS, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD.

      you ARE A FALSE WITNESS CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS.

    • profile image

      Kermos 3 months ago

      To Rich kelley, celafoe, and PlanksAndNails,

      PlanksAndNails, your fear is clearly evident in that you deleted the last comment I made here.

      You read into the Word of God your heart's desire, rather than hearing the Word of God. The Truth is that a person without the Holy Spirit will not understand the Word of God. There is no conviction without the Holy Spirit.

      Rich kelley, you too try to place words in that which I wrote. No, I didn't write that "I have special powers", rather I wrote that God sent to that your sin be illuminated. I am just a vessel of mercy, hence God has sent me to this time and place.

      celafoe, in 1 Cor 15:24-28, you seemed to have missed "the God and Father" and "He is excepted" and "then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." There is that "I and the Father are One" that Lord Jesus said. Also, "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." as written by the Apostle Paul (1 Timothy 1:17), the same Apostle Paul that wrote 1 Cor 24-28. Also, the Apostle John recorded 'Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."' (Revelation 11:15). There is not contradiction when it is known that Christ is Jesus is God.

      celafoe, you look at the prince of the air, the devil, that deceives you to the point that you look to a fabricated Jesus of your own creation. The Lord Jesus guards my heart, so I fear no evil that you try to cast at me.

      I clarify about "I am" and the various languages to which you attempted to cloud the issue. The Lord Jesus' words "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58) is recorded in the Greek language. The Name of God is recorded Exodus as "I AM WHO I AM" (3:14) and I referred to the Hebrew language. And the meaning of the Hebrew word for "I am" is equivalent to the Greek words for "I am". PlanksAndNails, I did not write that Exodus recorded in the Hebrew language contained the Greek words "ego eimi".

      PlanksAndNails, regarding the Targums, specifically the authors of the Targums, the authors are Jewish leaders because the Targums are rabbinical commentaries.

      Now, the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, the Christ. In this, it is evident that the Jews deny the Christ. Those that are not in Christ are deceived and liars. Do you remember quoting John 20:28? Let me refresh your memory in case not, "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." But, there are several potential outcomes there may be overlap or the results may be isolated, of which I will outline a few.

      POTENTIAL OUTCOME 1: Some portion of the authors repented, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ. In this, they put in the word "Word" which then points to the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus a giant hole in your commentary emerges.

      POTENTIAL OUTCOME 2: You are using the words of lost men instead of the Word of God to uphold your false doctrine. Even to the point that you say you have to draw on the rabbinical commentary (Targums) - not the Word of God - to interpret the very beginning of the book recorded by John that includes the words "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

      Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" is recorded by the Apostle John (10:32). Rewinding a little, here's some of the course of the conversation that led to this (10:24-26):

      The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

      Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.

      "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

      Look at that, Rich, celafoe, and PlanksAndNails, Jesus answered them "I told you, and you do not believe" (10:25). Now, Jesus had (1) healed and (2) forgave sins. Both healing and forgiving sins are good works. Only God can forgive sins as it is recorded by the Prophet Isaiah (43:23) "I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins." In this "One" not "one of many", it is clearly evident that Jesus is God.

      May the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God grant you eyes to see that King Jesus is God!

    • celafoe profile image

      charlie 3 months ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

      KOS- there is no sense in wasting my valuable time with such as you. the indoctrinated blind. you twist and misconstrue all that you do not believe rather than openly test it by the scriptures (not a man translated bible which is NOT the scripture but what that person or group believe). You are too blind to see and I will no longer waste time on you.

      REPENT AND BE BORN AGAIN BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    • PlanksandNails profile image
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      PlanksandNails 3 months ago from among the called out of the ekklesia of Christ

      Kermos,

      You stated,

      (((PlanksAndNails, your fear is clearly evident in that you deleted the last comment I made here.)))

      It is not fear. It was because I already stated,

      "Any further comments from you here will be deleted because all you are really doing is repeating yourself over and over again."

      It is clear that you have an obsession with me and cannot accept that nobody believes you here. You just really need to move on. I realize that you want attention, but you need to let go. It's a simple as that. You have had your time to vent and now you are looking ridiculous.

      I have allowed your previous comment to show the other readers that it is just the same as all the others. It is not out of fear as you claim.

      It's time to say goodbye.

      I have provided many links that cover your presuppositions that you keep repeating over and over.

      ALL FURTHER COMMENTS FROM YOU WILL BE DISALLOWED.

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