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The Pre-trib "Rapture", Myth or Fact?

Updated on August 7, 2011

A subject that has come up quite a few times recently in various articles, is the belief by certain Christians in 'The Pre-trib Rapture'. For those of you who have not heard of this belief before, as I understand it, this "Rapture" is a time in the future when Jesus will return to earth and all previously 'Saved' Christians (approx 5-10% of the population) will be taken up to Heaven in a new form, leaving behind all the unsaved ones to wonder where all the missing millions of people have vanished to. Okay, this is slightly oversimplifying the case, but there seem to be varying opinions on what happens to those who apparently remain 'unsaved' and are stuck here on earth, including suggestions of 7 years of Tribulation, the Antichrist, an option to have a second chance to accept Christ as the Saviour, etc.

Now this struck me a rather unfair on all those poor Souls who cannot possibly accept Jesus as their Saviour because they live in some obscure or Ancient long lost tribe and have never even heard of Jesus. It also seems rather harsh on the people who follow other religions such as Buddhism, Paganism, etc, and have shown love and respect throughout their lives for other people and God's creatures, yet they would be denied a place in Heaven simply because the God they chose to believe in was not Christ, or was not the Christ we see from today's interpretations of the Bible, (contrary to popular misconceptions, Pagans are not Atheists and do believe in a God or Goddess and frequently Christ too). I decided this was a subject worth following up on to see where this belief in 'The Rapture' started, and I am fascinated by what I have found.

I would also be interested to hear other comments from either Christians or non-Christians on this subject, as at this point I freely admit I am no expert on the subject, although I am curious as to how and why this belief has become so popular when it seems so cruel on the majority who have done nothing wrong except not be Evangelical Christians.

It also seems a large part of the beliefs in what will happen should the Pre-trib "Rapture" occur have been taken literally from the series of 'Left Behind' books by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.

Question : "My friends' church tells her Jesus will come again and all who believe in him will be raptured. The pastor teaches her that at this rapture people will be lifted up immediately into Heaven with Jesus at the second coming. If they are driving a car, or piloting a plane, or even having a baby, they will go, and the plane would crash, the car will keep on going without them, and the baby would go with them. Everyone left will have to suffer through a series of tribulations that are interpreted from the book of Revelations very literally and horribly. What does Jesus say about the rapture, and about the series of books titled Left Behind, by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins?"

Answer: I have no problem with people reading these books, as long as they consider them to be works of religious fiction. I do, however, have a problem with the fact that millions of people have read these books and have either taken them literally and believe they give a true account of what could happen or have become so confused by these books that they don’t know what to believe.

Let me make a very clear statement. The idea of the rapture, as described in the Left Behind books and described by certain fundamentalist churches especially in the United States, is completely fictional. It has absolutely no basis in reality.

It would be too mild to say that this idea was based on a misinterpretation of the Bible. In reality, this mindset is inspired, one might say engineered, by dark forces in a deliberate attempt, and I might say a desperate attempt, to keep the largest possible number of Christians in the fear-based mindset in which they have been trapped for almost 2,000 years.

The definition of the "Rapture" according to http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture3.htm

Conservative Theologians and Believers: Most Evangelical Christians believe that the Rapture, will happen sometime in the near future. All previously saved Christians, totaling perhaps 5 to 10% of the world's population, will suddenly have their bodies converted into a different form that they will wear for all eternity in Heaven. They will rise vertically into the air. Many believe that they will pass right through ceilings, roofs of cars, etc. to meet Jesus Christ in the sky. The vast majority of humans will be left behind. There will be extensive devastation on planes, trains and automobiles as their pilots, engineers and drivers suddenly disappear and the vehicles crash. The bodies of Christian believers who have died during the previous two millennia will be reconstituted into their original bodies which will then also be converted to spirit bodies. They will rise out of their graves and ascend to meet Jesus. Apparently the spirit bodies do not require oxygen to sustain themselves, because there is little air above 30,000 feet.

***

Liberal Theoligans however believe the Tribulation belief to be a fascinating myth or vision. The elements of the story:

Jesus descending in the sky.

Believers rising to meet him.

Parts of dead bodies, some individual organic molecules, somehow reconstituting themselves into their previous form.

Bodies being changed instantly from their physical form to some type of spiritual form.

are simply a beautiful fantasy without any grounding in reality

What Defines Being 'Saved'?

This is another quandary, as the Bible tends to be somewhat vague on this point.

Paul generally wrote that people are saved as a result of believing in the resurrection of Jesus.

The author(s) of the Gospel of John said that one must believe that Jesus is the Son of God in order to be saved.

Jesus, as reported in the synoptic Gospels, appears to have given two main paths to salvation:

One can be saved by performing good works, or

You can be saved by adopting a simple life of poverty and following Jesus' example.

Other passages say that a person is saved, and her/his sins forgiven, through baptism

And so we have a chaotic situation today where some denominations say that salvation is attained by:

Church rituals (particularly baptism and -- in the Catholic churches -- confession),

Good works,

Belief in:

Jesus' resurrection,

Jesus status as the only begotten Son of God,

Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior,

Or by some combination of the above.

One might argue that different faith groups are all equally correct. What they have done is to concentrate on some salvation passages in the Bible, interpreting them as true. Then they either ignore other passages, interpret them symbolically, or attributing unusual meanings to them. And so, diverse faith groups end up with entirely different criteria for salvation.

In addition, Christian faith groups differ on:

Whether a person, once saved, can lose their salvation, and

Whether a non-Christian can be saved.

Some of the other information I have come across also makes very interesting reading, and does cast a serious doubt on the Pre-trib "Rapture" belief system.

Apparently the Pharisees developed a program of teaching new converts to Phariseeism and wrote a five and one half million word document called the Babylonian Talmud upon which they based their religion.

What does all this have to do with a supposed “[pre-tribulation] Rapture?”

"The assumption that the Christian religion was a departure from the sect of the Pharisees is only partly true. The Christian religion did reject the Talmuds, but a more deadly plot was hatched against the followers of Jesus: infiltration by a Pharisee whose primary task was to destroy the followers of Jesus by torture and death.

But on his way to carry out his mission he had a new idea. His plot included injecting his own interpretations (a Pharisee trick) and replacing the teachings of Jesus and the apostles with rituals, practices, and traditions that were “less burdensome.” This, of course, is Saul Paulus, one of the most highly trained Pharisees of his day. A brilliant man who brought in deadly heresies that resulted in the creation of new religion that drew followers to him and away from Jesus and the apostles.

From overly zealous revival preachers in the 1800s, comes the idea of the “Rapture.” This idea was never a part of Christianity prior to that time.

The Hebrew Scriptures, the Book of Enoch, the book of Revelation, and Jesus’ prophecies and teachings only tell about the resurrection. These all refer to the people coming back to life in new mortal bodies or in immortal bodies."

The pre-trib "Rapture" concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth. However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29).

A forum I found that is also well worth reading can be found at: http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message667250/pg1

This forum includes many posts regarding the validity of the "Rapture" claims, and one of the posts basically claims to 'End the Pre-trib Rapture Debate using Bible verses'.

Other Internet Forum Quotes:

:"It has always amazed me that 'The Rapture' has become such a mainstream component of western religion. I find it difficult to believe that anyone who has actually read the Bible could put so much weight in the idea."

***

"The Rapture Cult was started by failed Anglican Priest Nelson Darby in the mid-1800s. It was a get-out-of-tribulation-free cult. Soul candy. Tastes great but has no substance and is definitely not good for ya. Sorry kiddos but there is no 'get out of tribulations free' card. Jesus Prayed – ‘I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one’ – John 17:15 Those who ‘suffer with Him (for His sake) through the terrors of the last days will at that time ‘also be glorified with Him’ (Romans 8:17) the one ‘who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:13; see also 10:22)"

***

"Well ... considering that there are 2 billion Christians on this planet and that only a relative handful actually believe in the rapture cult .. I have to disagree with the statement 'many .... agree upon the notion of a rapture'. Of the 2 billion christians on the planet, it's just a handful of fundamentalists - Baptists, Church of Christ, Pentacostals, etc. - that actually follow the rapture cult. That's a very small percentage of Christians. Most dismiss it"

***

"Don't dismiss Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30: and Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Notice the words AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Not Before."

***

There are plenty more equally interesting posts on the same site if anyone wants to take the time to go and have a look for themselves.


My Personal Conclusion

I have now read a vast amount on the topic of the Pre-trib Rapture, and I have to conclude that for me there is insufficient evidence to back it up as a likely future event. In fact there seems to be a large amount of very relevant evidence that seems to indicate it is purely an idea that has been adopted in recent times, and that if there is going to be a Rapture, it is not going to be a Pre-trib one.

My personal views are that a loving God and Christ would not leave those left behind to torture and torment either simply because they called God by another name, or had never heard or known of Jesus. Most logically there would be an opportunity for them to go to Heaven with the rest of the souls. As to what this opportunity would consist of is hard to judge, as it would seem a huge catching up exercise for anyone who had never heard of Jesus to suddenly have to learn all about him all at once and then make an instant decision on whether to follow him or not and discard their own beliefs.

I tend to feel that most Gods that are worshipped by other religions are simply other incarnations of Jesus, but in a form that each culture would find acceptable. Same Soul/Spirit, but different bodies and skin colours according to the part of the world where he was to be their Saviour. After all, it is hard to imagine trying to get a culture to believe that this man that had turned up with completely different coloured skin to themselves was their new Saviour, (as if the job wasn't already hard enough with the same coloured skin!!!).

I openly await your thoughts and opinions on this subject, and any further information you would like to add to it.

Thank you for reading.

Do You Believe in the Pre-trib

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If You Voted "Yes" to the above Question....

Did you read the links provided that suggest where the Pre-trib "Rapture" came from?

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    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 16 months ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks for your feedback Hxprof. I don"t have the exact same opinions as you, but each of us is unique and I do appreciate your feedback and thoughts on the subject :)

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      Hxprof 16 months ago from Clearwater, Florida

      You put a great deal of work into this, and for the record I agree with you - there's no pre-trib rapture. There is a "rapture" or a "catching up" at the end of the Great Tribulation. Part of the purpose in the Great Tribulation is to bring as much of the world as possible to Christ for salvation.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Feel free to back this up with quotes that others can respond to Michael.

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      Michael 5 years ago

      I used to be post trib without really searching the scriptures but after monthes of studying the bible i can now see that it is a deception.The bible clearly supports a pre trib rapture I challenge anyone to seek this truth out for themselves.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      LOL, a very good example of why the concept is so ridiculous Ron :)

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      Ron 5 years ago

      Hi again Misty.

      I think that if several million people suddenly dissappeared, that aliens had finally perfected their abduction technique, and would be feeding their far off planet for many years to come.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks Donwave, what a load of really interesting extra information. I am sure it will add a great deal of value to this article.

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      Donwave 5 years ago from US

      Was surfing just now and found your intriguing site. Have known of some web articles re the rapture including "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "X-Raying Margaret" (the US-merchandised "rapture" was first taught by a young woman in Scotland in 1830!), "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "The Unoriginal John Darby," "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," "Scholars Weigh My Research," "The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes," "Pretrib Rapture Politics" (excellent!), and (utterly shocking) "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty." The British were the original exporters of this novel view. But the British have largely abandoned it and nowadays it is promoted mainly by American evangelicals. At the same time many here in the US have had their eyes opened by journalist/historian Dave MacPherson who has focused for more than 40 years on locating hard-to-find early "rapture" documents that he has located while researching in Scotland, England etc. He has written many web articles (including those above) and several books including "The Rapture Plot" (available online) - the most detailed, documented, and accurate history of the same endtime view which, as he has stated on talk shows, was never a part of any organized church or official theology before 1830! He has made, as would be expected, enemies among the rapture moneychangers, some of whom delight in quietly deleting or muddying up accurate facts about the rapture that he and other scholars have contributed to Wikipedia etc. MacPherson has shown that Rev. Edward Irving and his followers (Irvingites), after being inspired by the young Scottish lassie, were the first to publicly teach the new escapist view and that John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren actually plagiarized those preceding him (!) and that he never should have been called the "father" of dispensationalism! MacPherson reports he is unable to get back to Britain and wishes that someone over there could pick up where he has left off. He says that anyone could write a bestselling book (because of worldwide interest in prophecy) and suggests that the starting point for anyone interested would be the examination of the "Clement Boase" collection of Irvingite material in the British Library - shelfmark 764.n.14.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 5 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Hi MizBejabbers, thanks for your feedback. Very good points made all round and I like your point that one needs to go out the Bible to understand the Bible, as well as your quote regarding 'all will be revealed in the end times'. Thanks again.

    • MizBejabbers profile image

      MizBejabbers 5 years ago

      Just found this hub, and I like it. I grew up a Southern Baptist, but I got over it! My childhood church did't teach rapture theories at all, so imagine my surprise when, as a young adult, I was confronted by them. When I rejected man's conflicting teachings, I was able to accept the spiritual. I'm not rejecting the Bible, but I'm saying that one needs to go outside the Bible to understand the Bible. I find that the most backward and argumentive Christians who say that they "believe every word in the Bible is the inspired word of God" do not believe the passage that says that "all will be revealed in the end times." Ironic, isn't it?

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Pleased you enjoyed this hub Trigger2011. You could well be right about the whole 'Gimmick' thing too. I always find it amusing when these 'end of the world is on such and such a date' statements are declared, because I am always certain it won't happen, and I am equally curious to see how the people who made the statements are going to explain the fact that the world is still here, and the same, once the date has been and gone uneventfully.

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      Trigger2011 6 years ago

      This was very interesting misty, as i think the rapture is just a gimmick to get people to join certain churches, like 1 i know that has only been around for probably less then 200 years where people keep preaching saying you need to get saved join our church the rapture is coming.... now its postponed because it never happened there last month or whenever it was all over tv wow (surprised) lol...

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks Ms Dee. BDazzler is a very intelligent and fascinating hubber to interact with. I have much time for him. Glad you enjoyed this Hub :)

    • Ms Dee profile image

      Deidre Shelden 6 years ago from Texas, USA

      Thanks for your hub on this very important question. I find I understand the Bible to be saying what BDazzler has explained so well. This is a very intresting discussion you have going :)

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      That is actually a very good point LG, and one that needed pointing out, (certainly to me for sure). Thanks

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Remeber too that John, or whoever wrote Revelations, didn't know about the western world, neither Australia or China or India--only his part of the world. It is said the this John watched the mountain explode and it is said that the ashes reached down into Africa. That moutain has exploded many times. Just thoughts and evidence.

      They are also stating that all the planets will line up and we will go into a deep freeze. What they don't figure is that only two planets are between us and the sun and then out moon. That would only mean an eclipse for about an hour or two. That will not kill us.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Interesting link LG, I read it all and knew the history of the eruption from various documentaries. I would never have put the Rapture or Revelations and the Vesuvius eruption together though, and still not too sure if I am honest as it seems a bit of a 'stretch' because the Vesuvius eruption only affected a tiny part of the world as opposed to the whole world that I would expect to be affected if the Rapture or Revelations were real events.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Okay Revelations already happened and there is proof on this site: http://www.bible-history.com/resource/ff_vesu.htm

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Happy New Year to you too LG :)

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Happy New Year Lady!!!

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Cheers LG :)

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      I fixed that, added some more links and spruced it up a bit.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      I will fix that right now. Thanks for letting me know.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Hi LG, I checked your hubs out and found the link to this one in the 2nd two you listed (thanks for that), couldn't find it in the 1st one though, never mind, maybe the addition didn't change when you saved for some reason!

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      I hope that you get more views and comments from them.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks LG, I hope this is of use to you in your hubs :)

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      This is one of the hubs I put your link in: http://hubpages.com/hub/Preparation-For-The-End-Of...

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks LG, that would be great :)

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Oh I have to link this hub to a few of mine. I keep forgetting until I see a new post.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 6 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks for this input Richard, all feedback helps by increasing the available knowledge to those who only know some of the Bible texts, or even only partial quotes from them.

    • profile image

      RICHARD SCHURZ 6 years ago

      Dear brother in Jesus,

      God says, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times. what is still to come!...What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned that will I do!"  Isaiah 46:10a, 11b  This Bible study compares all the Scripture on each End-time topic and exposes over 12 absolute contradictions of God’s Word by dangerous and deceptive pre-trib doctrines. The next Bible study shows the 7 Bible clues which positively reveals the identity of 666. Then there is a Bible study which shows how Obama may qualify to be the very deceptive False Prophet of 666. And finally there are interesting Bible-based speculations on how close the Last Days may be.

      Would greatly appreciate any comments or Bible studies you may have on the Last Days.  

      Your eternal friend in Jesus, 

      Richard

      WE ARE ALL EAGERLY WAITING FOR OUR GLORIOUS ETERNAL RENDEZVOUS WITH JESUS!  

       

      I Peter 1:13: “Therefore, prepare your minds for ACTION, and set your hope *FULLY* on the grace to be given YOU when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED*. I Cor 1:7: “YOU do not lack any spiritual gift as YOU eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be *REVEALED*.” Now the pre-tribbers claim that this glorious *REVEALING or *REVELATION* of Jesus will be *CONCEALED* BEFORE the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  However, every other time the Word *REVEALED* {Greek-Apocalipsis} is used related to resurrection events it refers to the glorious REVEALING of Jesus on the *LAST DAY* of the Great Tribulation {See 2 Thess 1:7-10 & Luke 17:26-31}. And *CONCEALED* is the exact opposite of *REVEALED* and *APPEARED* according to every dictionary!  Titus 2:13: “*WE* wait for the *BLESSED HOPE*—the glorious *APPEARING* of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  Hebrews 9:28 “Jesus will *APPEAR* a 2nd time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him!”  Matthew 24:29,30: Jesus says, “IMMEDIATELY AFTER the distress of those days {The Great Tribulation} the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will *APPEAR in the sky and the nations will *SEE* the Son of Man COMING on the clouds!!” I John 2:28: “Dear children, continue in Him, so that when He *APPEARS* WE may be confident and unashamed before Him at His COMING!” {See 2 Thess 1:7-10; I Tim 6:14; Heb 9:28 & Col 3:4}  2 Tim 4:8: Paul said, There is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on THAT DAY—and not only to me, but to *ALL who have longed for His *APPEARING*!!” A meeting at an appointed place and time is called a RENDEZVOUS. We have a RENDEZVOUS with eternity at the glorious *APPEARING and *REVEALING of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ *IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation.

      God has always allowed His people to suffer tribulation and trials because they purify and perfect their faith and will gain countless eternal rewards when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED. There are over 40,000 saints martyred every year and the main culprit is no longer just Islam and the RC Church. The Main culprits now are the 21 Muslim countries and Korea, China, Sudan, Venezuela, Nigeria and the RC Church. Millions of saints were martyred after 1917 in Russia and after 1948 in China. Romans 8:35-37: “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?... For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered. No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us!” I Peter 1:6-8:  “In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED.”  I Peter 2:20b,21: “But if you suffer for doing good and endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow IN HIS STEPS.” I Peter 4:12,13: “Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But REJOICE that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is *REVEALED!” Read other persecution verses: Romans 5:3; Heb 13:35-40; 2 Tim 3:12; 2 Cor 1:7-10; I Thess 3:3,4; Phil 1:29; Phil 3:10; Rev 12:11; Rev 13:9,10 & Rev 14:13.

             The courageous and faithful Tribulation saints will *NOT* be hurt by God’s *WRATH* as shown in Rev 14:9-11; 15:1,7; 16:1,19; or in any of the 7 trumpet or 7 bowl plagues as explained in Rev 9:4,20,21 and Rev 16:2,4-6,9,10,21; or in any of the plagues of God’s 2 witnesses as per Rev 11:6,10; or in *ETERNAL HELL*: Rev 14:9-11: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of *HIS WRATH*.  He will be tormented with burning sulfur and the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.” The pre-tribs often confuse the wrath of God with the persecution from the antichrist. They are not the same thing. The wrath of God is intended for the ungodly and will be poured upon them and them only. The Lord knows His target and He never misses. Jesus warned in Matthew 10:28, “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

      In Rev 18:1-24 we read about the plagues that will destroy the headquarters of 666 during the Great Triubulation. This evil city on 7 hills {See Rev 17:9} is called “Babylon” which Peter implied was the nicknmame for Rome in 2 Peter 5:13. In Rev 18:4 a voice from Heaven will order God's saints to stay away from Babylon {Rome-That great seaport-Rev 18:17-19} so that they will not participate in her sins or be hurt by God's wrath which will completely destroy Rome with many horrific plagues. There are 260 verses from Revelation chapters 6 thru 20 and 128 of these verses or 49% tell of the wrath of God to unbelievers, 666, his False Prophet and Rome. However, not even one of these verses tells of any wrath of God toward His courageous Tribulation saints.

            However, in Matthew 24:3,9-13:  The disciples asked Jesus, “What will be the sign of your Coming and the end of the age?? Jesus answered….. {During the Great Tribulation} “Then *YOU* will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and *YOU will be hated by all nations because of Me.  At that time many will turn away from the Faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of *MOST* will grow cold,{THE GREAT APOSTASY} but he {The Called, Chosen & Faithful-Rev 17:14b} who stands firm to the End will be saved.” 2 Thess 2:1,3: “Concerning the Coming of our Lord Jesus and *OUR being gathered to Him...That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first!!” {NIV – Rebellion} It is estimated that there are about 800 million people who claim to be Christians out of the 7 billion people on earth. There are probably about 134 million saved evangelicals which leaves about 666 million who will fall away and follow 666. There will probably be about 6 billion 666 million people who will follow 666 so they can buy and sell everything; which leaves about 200 million that may be saved from every nation tribe and language as per Rev 7:9-14. Matt 7:13,14: Many follow the road to destruction and only a few find the road to life. These numbers are, of coarse, just a speculation. Read Revelation 12:11 & 13:10!!

      The pre-tribbers claim that the "YOU" in Matthew 24:9 above are Jews only and that much of Matthew was only written for Jews like Matthew chapters 5-7. Which is of course completely ridiculous since Jesus said to His 11 Apostles in Matthew 28:19,20 “Go and make disciples of *ALL NATIONS*…teaching them to obey *EVERYTHING* I commanded you!”  {Read John 12:48 & John 14:23}  I John 2:3,4,6:  “We know that we

    • Sufidreamer profile image

      Sufidreamer 7 years ago from Sparti, Greece

      Great Hub, Misty - Glad to have found it. I have to agree with you that the whole thing really is a pile of cack. If pre-trib means spending eternity with a fool like 'Pastor,' left behind sounds much better :)

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      Cindy Lawson 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      I so agree on this LG, they can't explain why they believe with anything, so they make vague statements like "I will be going home in the Rapture as my Bible says I will.", So if his Bible said he was going to turn into a monkey and sing soprano would he believe that too?? LOL.

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      Debra Allen 7 years ago from West By God

      I have many that don't get comments but some traffic too.

      Yeah most will not read the proof but will threaten others like this guy above me does. Jesus talked against pride and threats. Go figure!

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      Cindy Lawson 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Hi LG, so good to see you back again and thanks for popping in and posting here. Well, this hub doesn't get many comments nowadays, but it still gets daily traffic which is a good thing to get the message across of what a load of rubbish the whole Pre-trib Rapture idea is. What gets me are the people like the guy who commented just above you, who takes this all so seriously and clearly hasn't read the hub or the evidence that explained where this Pre-Trip Rapture idea originated. People like him are potentially very dangerous if you ask me.

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      Debra Allen 7 years ago from West By God

      Wow Misty, I didn't realize people were still posting comments here.

      The Bible has been changed many a time especially in the 6th and 15th centuries. If you read Revelations yourself and as a book with all your knowledge or common sense and with no one telling you what it says or meands you will come away from that with a different perspective. If you read the whole Bible by yourself you will come away from it with a different perspective because whomever put the verse numbers it it wanted us to see them as just that--lots of verses that are taught can be taken out of context. Now read the book without the verse numbers and as the stries that are in it, and you come away with a differnet perspective.

      I did a report in an english class in High School and what I came away from that book of Revelations is that it already happened as in past tense and not future tense.

      If some of us are left behind on this planet --that would be what the main purpose God had in mind for us anyway, so it can't be all bad. Those of us left behind would have a more healthy world to live on because we wouldn't have the need for money and giving it all to the church. I would rather give God's purpose for us to be stewards to his planet then go someplace for selfish reasons as it sounds like it is coming from those who are taking Pride in judging others and putting themsleves on those pedestals like they are.

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      Cindy Lawson 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Yawn, I doubt it very much somehow!!

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      Pastor 7 years ago

      I am a Born Again Christian, and a Pastor and I will be going home in the Rapture as my Bible says I will. If you do not believe you will be left behind...plain and simple fact.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      All views are welcome here Judah's Daughter, so thank you for yours also :)

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      Judah's Daughter 8 years ago from Roseville, CA

      Wow, a lot of different views on salvation, works, rapture, the Bible, gods...

      This is only my opinion in the little I know (the little we all know)...

      What it means to be saved has nothing to do with works of the body. When Jesus quoted the commandment of "Thou shalt not commit adultery", He made it clear that a person can commit adultery in their heart, just by the thought of it. The Bible says, "People honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me". It's all about the heart. The works of faith are that of letting Him create a clean heart in us and doing what is opposite of our fleshly hearts, but to love even our enemies!

      Regarding the rapture; I'm kind of looking at both sides, while the timing doesn't really matter. We know He promises to keep us safe from harm. There is absolute scripture about one being taken and one left behind. The second coming of Christ doesn't mean there won't be a third? I believe the second coming is the Rapture (coming as He left, which is in the clouds, but not on a horse with armies). When He returns on the white horse with armies, it is to fight the battle of Armageddon and rule on earth with the saints for the milenial reign.

      It is prophesied that there will be two witnesses on the earth during the tribulation period. This could be two prophets or two "churches" (groups). They will be the representation of God on earth during this time. They will indeed be killed, yet resurrected and caught up for all to see; then the final plagues leading to the battle of Armageddon.

      At the end of the milenial reign, there will be one last destruction of Satan and evil nations, as prophesied in Revelation. All flesh will be completely dead. This is when the second resurrection happens (the unbelieving) and Satan and all evil will be cast into the last or second death, the Lake of Fire.

      The New Heaven and New Earth will be manefest then for all eternity.

      Again, take it or leave it; but at least I could add a little something into the various views on these topics :-)

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks for commenting Suiiki, I hope your Wife does start to become more open to the possibility that the Pre-Trib Rapture is very unlikely. Good luck .

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      Suiiki 8 years ago from City of the Newly Wed and Nearly Dead

      I'm aware this hub is old, but, I have to make a comment. My wife and I often argue about whether or not there will be a pre-trib rapture. Being raised Catholic, I don't buy it...the Catholics also teach that non-Christians can be saved in some circumstances (moved people don't know that, but it's true!)

      My wife however disagrees. She believes whole-heartedly that there WILL be a pre-trib rapture and won't hear anything against it, and also believes that non-Christians can't be saved unless they accept Christ later. She also conveniently forgets the line "Faith without works is dead" and tells me that if someone has accepted Christ, they can run around killing people and raping children and still go to heaven (Not without repenting and trying to do better they can't! But she ignores me when I argue that point...)

      I think I will bring the topic of the rapture up again tonight and. now that I know the EXACT story behind the story, see if shee will finally understand why I don't believe it will happen.

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      quietnessandtrust 8 years ago

      Great piece Mistyhorizon...I was asked to write on this "concoction theory" as well...I posted it just 2 days ago....tell me your thoughts on it...I come at it from a very different angle as you will see if you have the time.

      Grace, mercy and shalom to you and yours,

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Rapture-R

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks for commenting Issues. You make good points, and I am inclined to see some valid merit in the belief that here on Earth could well be "Hell" based on my own life experiences, and those of many others I have witnessed.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks so much for commenting Richard. Well I fall into the category of Pagan I guess, although I was brought up Christian (Church of England/Protestant) and attended Catholic Schools. I do believe that Jesus existed, it is much of the rest of the Bible I have many doubts about, plus the interpretations of it by the Church.

      I do believe animals have souls, I don't believe in Hell, I definitely do not believe in any kind of "Rapture", (too many reasons to cover in this comment), I don't follow that a certain "Aspect" not embraced means we are lost, merely way lower down on the Spiritual "ladder", with many lifetimes of learning ahead of us before we can progress to higher planes, (I hope this makes sense as it can be hard to explain in words).

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      issues veritas 8 years ago

      Misty,

      People keep reading and quoting the scriptures as if it was divine. It was created by men, for men and it is interpreted by men. If the Old Testament was divine, then why the New Testament. So the people that follow the Old Testament are not worthy, while those that follow the New Testament are worthy.

      The concept of the rapture is meaningless, it denotes the failure of God and the failure of humans. We didn't do well from the get go, what with conspiracy and treason and stealing intelligent fruit. Then we get a second chance, in hell we call Earth. So Cain kills Abel, that should have closed down the Earth, but it didn't. We get the hang of this killing stuff and by golly we are damn good at it.

      So, Jesus comes down in the flesh, a total surprise because we thought the God was alone. Well actually, just him, the dEVIL and a rag tag group of Angel. Some Angels lost their way but that was OK, they were picked up by the dEVIL.

      My point is that we humans, have not changed since the beginning and we are still the same in AD. What could possibly be the point of a rapture. The way that the Earth is, it might as well be Hell.

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      Richard Kent Matthews 8 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Strange conversation, actually. After reading most of the recent postings, I'm still not certain where you, Mistyhorizon2003, really stand on the issue of the reality of any of what has been discussed. Are you a Christian?

      Something you mentioned in your hub interested me. According to what I know about the Rapture teachings, much less than 5% of believers will find themselves caught up in it. More like .0009%. The Bible is clear: many called (most of Christianity); few chosen. There will be few Catholics, JWs, Mormons, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, or most of the more than 10,000 different Christian denominations and sects. Only a handful. Chosen before the foundation of the world. And only if they have accepted a very specific aspect of the Teachings. You can love and serve and do anything you think is Christian. But if you have not embraced that certain aspect, you are lost. So, what is that aspect?

      Hmmmm.....

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thank you Her Guy, lovely words of wisdom well put and with warm sentiments.

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      her guy 8 years ago

      I see evidence all around me in the natural, scientific and even on a higher spiritual plane. I believe that after a person really realizes that he or she needs God and cries out to Him, He answers them by making a spiritual connection to them. That cry is from the heart and no one knows the human heart but God. He truly knows and loves each one of us and will reach every soul with knowledge that He knows we will realize is pure truth. Problem is, He created each of us with volition to choose his or her own life and will not disrespect our right to choose. All He could do was die for us and offer that to pay for our sin. Now it's up to us to accept it or not. If He loves all of you so much how could I not love you all that much?

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Always open to every belief and opinion 'Her Guy', so you are welcome on any of my hubs. I do believe in Jesus personally, I just have my own doubts about the accuracy of much of the Bible, although no doubt some of it is true. It is good for everyone to voice their opinions and beliefs, and it is only by listening to each other that we can form our own beliefs.

      Keep your comments coming 'Her Guy' and thanks for reading and commenting :)

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      her guy 8 years ago

      This is going to pigeon-hole me but I'm one of those narrow-minded, Bible-banging, literal hangers-on to the Words of the Book. Ahh I hear the collective sighs from all the readers keeping up on this hub. I see the Book as easy to interpret if you let it interpret itself and use a good Greek and Hebrew Lexicon and a little common sense. I believe exactly what all of you find so hard to believe..that Jesus is the only way. He said "I am The way, The truth, and The life. No one gets to the Father but by me. Now that statement either makes Jesus out to be who He says He is or crazy or a fool. I tend to believe the former. There is so much evidence to support the Bible to be the inerrent Word of God. One proof that springs to mind is that while greatest minds in the whole world were teaching that the world was flat, or on the back of a turtle, or a plate held up on Atlas' back, the "archaic" Scripture says that the earth is a circle (globe or orb in Hebrew) Isaiah 40:22 and that that ball hangs on nothing (Job 26:7) Another example is what ancient man thought physical matter was made of. He surely didn't even comprehend what science today know is the physical nature of the universe. But that "antiquated" book says that things that we can see are made up of things we can't see. You ever wonder how they knew that we are made up of atoms and molecules unseen by the human eye? "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that things which are seen were not made of thing which are visible." 1 Cor. 11:3

      Now I know most bangers are judgmental and irrational but I hope that getting to know me you all find out I am fun and reasonable and just a joy to talk to. Believe me when we all meet our Maker no one will be able to look at Him and say "Unfair you caught me when I wasn't looking!" It won't happen like that. You guys are the best 'specially you Misty. :)

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks for added information and detailed comment Lionswhelp. Always nice to have your input and thank you again for stopping in here to comment :)

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      lionswhelp 8 years ago

      Opps it should be www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2101.cfm

      The lionswhelp

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      lionswhelp 8 years ago

      I do not believe in any rapture. There are some that do. SDA do along with Baptist. There is a fake rapture that the Illuminati will use to deceive unsuspecting Christians that think there is one. see www.cuttingedege.org/news/n2101.cfm .

      The Bible speaks of a place of safety in the wilderness somewhere on earth not in heaven during the Great Tribulaton see Revelation 3:10 and Revelation 12:6 & 14, No whjere does it say there is a rapture, though some seem to misinterpret John 14:1-4 As in heaven but Revelations 5:10; 19 & 20 show Christ coming to rule on the earth for 1,000 years. Also Zechariah 14:1-9 shows the Saints ruling with Christ on the earth. There must be a hundred prophesies throughout the OT & NT That show God's intervention on the earth. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 shows the saints who are dead beng made alive and being caught up together with the remainng saints that are still alive in the first heaven which surrounds our earth. However, the other scriptures given show this will preceed Christ return to the earth. I hope this will help you.

      The lionswhelp

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      I like the sound of that idea as a Pagan myself Pylos. Thanks for commenting :)

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      pylos26 8 years ago from America

      why not just toss and change all that disputed unnecessary baggage about jesus and moses, to a love of the real God (AKA Mother Nature). pylos

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      pylos26 8 years ago from America

      sorry, double post.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thank you to both CW and Benson, I am glad you enjoyed the hub :)

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      Benson Yeung 8 years ago from Hong Kong

      great attempt to make theological discussion interesting and readable. thanks for sharing.

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      countrywomen 8 years ago from Washington, USA

      Cindy - I pray and hope who believe do get what they always aspired for. But feel bad when they look upto others with pity and disdain then that feels bad. As it is rightly said "My Father's House Are Many Mansions" God could have differest strokes for different folks. Great hub and lots of information. Good job.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks Make Money, I am so glad you enjoyed it and agreed with my conclusions.

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      Make Money 8 years ago from Ontario

      Excellent Hub Misty.

      This Hub should be sent to most of the TV evangelists.  I was watching Jack VanImpy one time and he referred to some Catholic theologian from 1,000 years ago or so to try to prove the pre-trib rapture.  Well if there was such a Catholic theologian 1,000 years ago that talked about a pre tribulation rapture then it was quickly dismissed.  If Catholic writings talk about a rapture then it is referring to a conscious state of prayer while living here on earth, not being lifted up before the tribulation.

      Thanks

      Mike

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      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      Back to the Original Hub Topic. If there was/is a rapture and only certain people left this earth---wouldn't it make sense to have some peole still here? I mean God put us here to take care of the earth and all the things that he put on her.........why would he take every single person off of the earth and leave her alone and not be able to take care of her? He has to leave some here on earth. That was his main objective for us. See you can't always see the worst in others like that. Yes there may be some who go to God, and then with this scenario why would he take that many off the earth---for what purpose-------to repopulate some other planet????? Or even to make a new planet---we are not alone in the whole of the universe--lets think outside the box for a moment!

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      Tim 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

      I'm not sure there's a lot of evidence in any writing to support a forgiven lucifer...I think the traditional story tells that Lucifer was created specifically for heaven, and when he rebelled against a God he knew more than we do, he lost his chance.

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      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      If Satan asked God to forgive him....a questions I posed just a fe minutes on the Religion Forum, thn what happens to all the evil minions that was with Satan? Ususally as told in other sotries and such the minions have no will after their leader is taken out of the picture.......

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      sandra rinck 8 years ago

      You bring up an interesting point Misty. When I was talking to my friend about the tarot, she said, of course, that I was consorting with evil spirits and it was Pagan etc...

      Well I said, what makes you think I am asking anyone other than God for direction and understanding? She said that the tarot was a tool of satan etc. and that it was giving service, or something like that to satan.

      So we went on for a little and I asked her, "how do you know you got the right God? You call God Jehovah, I call God, God. You pray and I pray to God but for me I don't worry about who it is going to because I only know one and so I know that it is going to exactly where it needs to go.

      So, like you said: thou shall not consort with evil spirits. I believe that this evil spirit is in their heads because I am not sure how you could consort with an evil spirit because I must be blind. lol.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      I totally agree LG, talk to them as if they are next to you, as they probably are!

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      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      Yes! They are around you. The guy that lived across the street from us had mouth cancer and when he passd he was around me all the time. I had to eventually I had to tell him to go help his wife who was still alove and in pain from him leaving her. He did leave me alone after that.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      LOL Sandra, loved your last comment "They are absolutely blind, could you hate a person for that, no I don't beleive so, but it does make me want to smack them across the face to get them to wake up."

      You should have seen the faces of my late Husband's madly religious family when whilst he was dying from Bowel Cancer I sat down and watched 'John Edward' the Psychic Medium on Sky. They were convinced it was evil, in spite of the fact I pointed out the actual words of the Bible had been changed from ' Thou shalt not consort with evil spirits' to 'Thou shalt not consort with spirits'. I have to say a combination of this programme and my pets and family got me through this terrible time in my life, and I was left completely convinced my Husband was still around me, and I still am even since I remarried.

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      sandra rinck 8 years ago

      Definitely not alone Tk, I celebrate because it's fun and it fills me up with happiness, well not so much around Christmas but I still feel the nastalgia of christmas growing up and being with family and giving and stuff.

      One of my Jehovah friends said that those holidays are Pegan so they don't celebrate them, neither do some of my jewish friends, I didn't know about the Prebeterian but I would believe it. Though they don't really get on me about it or think I am some horrible human God hating being or anything, they just prefer to not celebrate.

      Though I was studying with another Jehovah witness and things were good, the only thing I would not talk to her about was my spirit. Had to put a stop to it, then around Halloween (my favorite holiday) she said (though as nice as she really truly is, love her no matter what) that I was worshiping the Devil.

      Then I should have bit my tounge but I didn't, because I then had to be like, yeah I also use the tarot...blah...but the look on her face, well I felt bad so I asked her not to study together anymore. Not because I was mad at her or anything like that, but because I could see it in her face and her vibes that she was "scared" or uncomfortable.

      But I did read the blog from livelonger, omg! I was actually talking about things like this with my friend the other day about how long this has been going on, but this girl...

      I think it is just like the bible and the quarn, they just don't see what they are doing. They are absolutely blind, could you hate a person for that, no I don't beleive so, but it does make me want to smack them across the face to get them to wake up.

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      Tim 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

      Exactly. These religious holidays are another way to flaunt an earthly agenda to the masses and "get the word of God out there". I'd rather plan for the heavenly kingdom that is said to await me. Heck, life here on earth is hell anyway. I can only work towards something better than the pothole I've been given here.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Yes, every day is important, if we look after what he gave us, or loaned us (in the case of the earth and it's creature), we are doing right by him as he would want us to.

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      Tim 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

      LOL I AM NOT ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      I celebrate Christmas for gifts. It enver felt right to take ONE day a year to celebrate Christ and then spend 364 days to forget him....well that's what catholics do and it bothers me. My dad-in-law is a "hard core" catholic, which according to Jim Gaffigan is "I'll see ya at easter!"

      Bothers me to no end. Christ is better than one day a year. Save that to celebrate the love, salvation, and family he gave to us by merely coming, but live all days of life to honour Him. That's how I work...

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      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      Yeah everyone wonders why I don't go to Catholic Mass the night before Christmas

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Me too, I only enjoy them as the festivals they are for family, not for their religious implications. Frustrates the hell out of my Christian Husband when it comes to Christmas :)

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      Tim 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

      Yep yep yep. Welcome to modern Christianity. Christmas isn't even celebrated in many presbyterian circles because, guess what it's borrowed from pagans! Same with Easter. In fact, Presbyterians generally don't celebrate any holiday that's religious. I do, but I don't consider them religious, just for good family time and gift giving.

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      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      Interesting TK. Again stealing from a prior culture or society and calling it their own.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks to both of you LG and T, I do find this very intriguing, especially the Moses and the commandments part, plus the fact the whole idea of worshipping icons was 'nicked' from Gothic Pagans

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      Tim 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

      It's called Iconoclasm. It's the use of images and icons in worship. No offense to catholics, but it's a pagan tradition of the goths blended with the "christian" teachings of the RCC.

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      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      yes and they have Icons---Images of the them, Jesus and Mary and whatnot. Oh they are not to have any other gods or images of them---but they do and they will tell you they don't. I think the reason why that is a commandment is because for some reason it must keep the spirit here and not released. It has to be somehting with Egyptian ideology because Moses got those same commandemnts from Egytpian lessons as he was being prepared to be a priest.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Interesting, yet so many churches have Idols of Mary in them, plus the rosary is predominantly 'Hail Mary's' rather than the Lord's Prayer.

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      Tim 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

      Presbyterians (my denomination) are descended from the time of John Calvin when he stood up to the RCC over issues like Mary and the sacraments. I would submit many traditional protestants are still pretty close to the teachings of men like Calvin, whom I've studied and much of what he says aligns with the Bible very, very closely.

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      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      Oh and that is where the brainwashing comes in as in my hub---they will fervently tell you that they do not worship Mary at all.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks Melissa, I am glad you now know a little bit more about what the 'Pre-trib Rapture' is, and have enough evidence to see it is most likely very much a recently conceived myth.

      Hi LG, This is really strange, as Mary was never meant to be worshipped according to all I have read, and there is no mention of this in the Bible as far as I am aware.

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      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      Some sects of Christianity ae even pushing their congregation even further away. I noticed on one place that at first it was to God through Christ--whichn sounded Ok, but then this last month or two they have added Mary, Now it through Mary to Christ to God. Very sad when Chrsit and God and the Kingdom is within you not outside of you or even in another person that you have to go through.

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      Melissa G 8 years ago from Tempe, AZ

      Thanks Misty--just the other day, I was reading a comment where someone described herself as pre-trib and I was wondering what that was about. Now I know! I think you've presented some very good arguments for why the rapture isn't a likely event, and why a loving creator would not be so choosy about letting people continue along their soul's evolution.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks Pam, I do feel a great affinity with what I know of Buddhism and their teachings as well as their respect and love for the planet and all the life that dwells on it. I think we could all learn a lot from the Buddhist religion. I also totally agree with your last statement about certain sects of Christianity, it is just a pity they cannot see that they have become what Christ warned they would. Thanks for commenting and enjoying the hub :)

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      pgrundy 8 years ago

      Wow, Misty, this was very brave of you and you did a wonderful job on this--I learned a lot from reading your research on the Rapture. Thank you.

      I don't believe in the Rapture at all of course, but even if it were true, I'd want to be left behind anyway. In Buddhism there is a tradition that the enlightened master (which would NOT be me, lol!) will often voluntarily stay behind to help ALL sentient beings be released from the suffering of this world.

      Buddhists would see Jesus, Buddha, and other historical figures this way--as enlightened masters who stayed behind to help release others from suffering. The idea that anyone would want to be rescued and let others stay and suffer would be repellent in Buddhism because in the Buddhist worldview everything is connected. If any one person suffers, we all suffer.

      I think some sects of Christianity have lost their way and now bear no resemblance whatsoever to the actual teachings of Christ. But then Jesus did say that would happen, so it should surprise no one.

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Hi MM, thanks for commenting. The idea of Heaven being a country Club made me smile, now there's a thought, loads of souls all up there playing golf or propping up the bar in the 19th hole. Logic should tell us that God would want the majority with him, not just a handful of people out of the many he created, especially if they were esentially good people.

      And of course if you had been cremated, and lets go so far as to say your ashes had been scattered, then being reconstituted would be kind of complicated (although I just know someone is going to say that it won't be because God can do this easily, which could, I suppose be fair comment). Also a but unlucky on those rich people who pay for their ashes to be fired into space on a small rocket. :)

      The last statement you quoted me on was actually all a part of the original quote from my research, (much though I would like to say I came up with that statement about there being 'little air above 30,000 feet LOL).

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      Susan Reid 8 years ago from Where Left is Right, CA

      TKeeley -- I like that visual. But you'd need to be SAVED Sandman, of course:-)!!

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      Tim 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

      Hey--I for one would love to be an ash-bodied person. You have super powers you'd never have had in normality. Give me an ashen composed body so I can slide thru cracks and fly with the wind!! Sort of like Sandman in Spiderman comics...lol...

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      Susan Reid 8 years ago from Where Left is Right, CA

      1. If there are several BILLION Christians in the world, why wouldn't they ALL be eligible to participate in the Rapture? 5-10% seems awfully exclusionary to me! Heaven is not a country club for goodness sake! Wouldn't logic tell you God wants as many followers as possible to join him in eternal salvation, not just the extra chosen-chosen few???

      2. So let's say you are already dead when the Rapture occurs but you were cremated? Misty quotes above, "The bodies of Christian believers who have died during the previous two millennia will be reconstituted into their original bodies which will then also be converted to spirit bodies. They will rise out of their graves and ascend to meet Jesus." (I assume this part was commentary by you, Misty: Apparently the spirit bodies do not require oxygen to sustain themselves, because there is little air above 30,000 feet.)

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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thank you, just heading over to your new hub to read it now :)

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      You helped me out with my links, it is only right that I help you out too.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks LG, that would be great :) :) :)

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 8 years ago from West By God

      Hey Misty, I am going to put you link on my hub.

    • mistyhorizon2003 profile image
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      Cindy Lawson 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

      Thanks LG, I shall go take a look.

      Shades, great to see you here and thanks for the interesting comment. Pleased you enjoyed this hub's topic. I can't wait to see you in BD's tin foil hat :)

      Hi Gwendy, lucky you have smart children, must have got it from their Mother !!

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      gwendymom 8 years ago from Oklahoma

      Shades, you are right, That is exactly what they were trying to do to my children, thankfully they are smart and know when the are being bamboozled.

      Glad to be back :)