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Tithing Scriptures: What the Bible Says About Tithing

Updated on March 7, 2012

Finding and Understanding Tithing Scripture

Discover what Bible scripture says about tithing and how it can change your life.
Discover what Bible scripture says about tithing and how it can change your life.

Tithing Scriptures in the Bible

From one end of the pew to the other, the gold-plated collection plate is passed as its lustrous surface scatters light along the ceiling and walls.

The act of tithing, as such collections are called in the church, is one of the most questioned practices in Christian living; however, tithing scriptures in the Bible tell us it is one of the greatest acts of obedience a Christian can practice.

The purpose of tithing, found in Deuteronomy 14:22-23 (NLT), is made clear: to “teach you always to fear the Lord your God.” By practicing good tithing habits, scripture tells us we are showing God our desire to put him first place in our lives.

In Deuteronomy, Christians are directed to not only give ten percent of their income, but to give their first and their best. This means Christians should strive to not only pay or take out tithes upon receiving your paycheck, but to always put God above your bills and other responsibilities.

While tithing scripture lays out the foundation for why the tithe is an important part of obedience, a struggling economy or other interests can tempt us with fear or greed to skip the tithe.

Writing from Macedonia to encourage the Corinthians to solve internal struggles, Paul defended the collection of tithes in scripture, saying, “Whatever you give is acceptable if you give it eagerly,” (2 Corinthians 8:12, NLT).

Paul points out a family’s needs should not be affected by tithing, but rather, each person should give in proportion to what they have been given (2 Corinthians 9:10) while giving as much as they are able to (2 Corinthians 8:12, 9:16).

2 Corinthians also contains two other important factors in which Christians are encouraged to measure their giving against, including following through on previous financial promises (8:10), such as pledges to ministries not met; and to give according to what your own heart and mind tell you is right.

The latter factor is an important one, as church debate and debate among other Christians on tithing can create pressure on a person to pay more, thinking they won’t see the blessings or favor of God without increasing their tithe.

These feelings of fear or unnecessary pressure are the works of the enemy; don’t listen and instead, do as Paul outlines in 2 Corinthians 9:7:

“You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. ‘For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.”

Finally, tithing scripture even outlines directions in measuring whether or not the ministry you are tithing into is the right place for you to sow your seed.

Twice in the Bible, scripture dictates churches and other Christian ministries should give at least a tenth of tithes collected (Numbers 18:25-29) to advance the kingdom of Heaven on projects outside the church, such as feeding the needy and providing assistance to struggling families or communities (1 Timothy 5:3).

When the church tithes, regardless of economic climate or uncertainty, you can be assured that God will return to you in full measure grace, favor, mercy and blessings you cannot contain.

Remember what Paul said:

“Right now you have plenty and can help those are in need. Later, they will have plenty and can share with you when you need it,” (2 Corinthians 8:15).

This is the only area in which God directly tells us to challenge Him; invest in Christ’s people by sowing your seed--your tithe--into strong Christian ministries and be a cheerful giver!

Living the Tithe

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      Robert Munyui Kamunyu 15 months ago

      Tithing was under and is under the law with a curse for Christians seeking salvation under the law, Galatians 3:3-13, Malachi 3:1-18. When pastors and priests lie by quoting tithes in Malachi 3:1-18,under the law IN OLD COVENANT which was a prime contribution for the Levite tribe and Leviticus Priesthood, how many Christians line up to be served with food when tithes and offering under the law are given? Is the storehouse pastors' and priests' house or the Church being the body of Christ? Saved Christians by grace IN NEW COVENANT who are lead and taught by the Holy Spirit are not under law or in generation curse in the law. Tithes in Malachi 3:1-18 were primarily for the tribe of Levi which was not allocated land for sharing among themselves , Numbers 18:20-28 . Those who simply imply Christians are under curse for not tithing put into question about unfinished work of redemption (SALVATION) by Christ Jesus on cross of Calvary which is bought and maintained continuously in tithes paid to them. Yet Christ is not ashamed to call us brethren whom He has sanctified. Hebrew 2:9-13.We have been redeemed from the curse of the law, Jesus Christ being made a curse for us : for it is written, cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree. Galatians 3:8-13. Christians saved by grace are ministers of the new testament born of love with exceeding glory which surpassed the glory that was in law with Moses. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law to adoptions of sons in Royal Priesthood. Pastors ,Priest and Bishops who are servants of God cannot subject sons of God in Royal Priesthood to tithe taxes which is absolutely illegal for we are not under the curse of the law, Galatians 5:1, Galatians4:4-5,2 Corinthians 3:1-18. Sins sacrifices ,offerings under the law, curses, and generation curses under law in the old covenant remained up to death of Jesus Christ on Calvary when He fulfilled the requirements of the law. Salvation under the law one attains it at last breath on earth having done all that pertains to the law which is hard for one to accomplish. Even the tithe which was given by Abraham was under the law of sin and death from the fallen state of Adam and Eve at the garden of Aden. Those who lie would like to deceive Christians that tithe was before the law but before which law. When Christ our High Priest was born He was given gifts and not tithes Mathew 2:11-12. Jesus Christ our High Priest and Apostles of Jesus Christ did not ask for tithes. To whom do they pay allegiant to for them to justify asking for tithes today? Salvation under spiritual law of love by grace is freely given and attained with free miracles from God our Father, Ephesians 2:4 -9, Ephesians 2:13 -20. Under Leviticus priesthood which belonged to the tribe of Levi, tithes were given to Levites priests for use by the whole tribe of Levi and tithe of tithe to the high Priest for they shared no land apart from the walled towns they were allocated to stay in for their continuous sacrifice to God, Numbers 18:20 -29. Widows, strangers ,fatherless and orphans benefited from tithes and offerings given to Levites, Deuteronomy 14:22-29. In Christianity widows were asked to be catered by close brethren to ease burden to the Church. There were also tithes of different kinds in Israel. There was also a tithe where a family had to eat all before the Lord, Deutreronomy12:6-7. In Christ Jesus we are saved by grace to adoptions of sons in Royal Priesthood of Christ (for Christians saved by grace )and not by works of law ,Galatians 3:8-13,Acts13: 38-39, Galatians 4: 4-5, Galatians2:16-21, Galatians 5:18. Sons have direct access to the Father and free common inheritance not bought or worked for from the Father. For servants ( Pastors and Priests) are servants of God worthy all respects and due help. Much preaching is done in grace and love to Christians at early stages who are later sleeking entangled and enslaved in fear under the bondage of law in tithes emphatically taught by many in seeking dwindling fortune entrenched in tithes falsehood. The Church of Christ is founded in love by grace and a worker is worthy his labor. The Apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ understood from onset of Christ's Ministry that they were not under Leviticus Priesthood and had no share in Leviticus Priesthood allotments. Thus questions were raised of their take and benefits in the Royal Priesthood of Jesus Christ Ministry in the New Covenant, Mathew 19:23-30 . Leviticus Priesthood which was upheld under the law without partiality had allotments which existed before well-known and were already defined in obliged tithing. God had also to deal with wayward priesthood and a rebellious nation under the law. Malachi 2:1-17, Malachi 3:1-18. Christians were never left under leadership of Leviticus Priesthood. Christians are humbly called upon to support tithes sweetened falsehood purposed to enhance good glorious intentions communicated a smart way which forms practically some mega success which should not divert Christians from free spiritual giving. The essence of Christians righteousness in salvation by grace in the Loyal Priesthood of Jesus Christ is more falsely tied to tithes by the clergy and the bar raised often higher as they become masters of confusion in tithes falsehood teaching. Even Judas Iscariot is not recorded asking for tithes. We firmly stand by the truth our mouths being boldly louder and we faint not as we manifest the truth to man’s conscience to God without honoring personality clout in uncovering tithes falsehood taught,2Corinthians 4:1-2. They keep asking what is wrong with us to be at pains on tithes falsehood? There is nothing wrong with us and we have wronged no one except those who stumble on the truth who want to appease in falsehood.

      IN NEW TESTAMENT two priesthood are compared and the need to replace the old covenant expounded. Hebrew7: 7-28, Hebrew8:6 -13, Hebrew 9:6-9, Hebrew 10:8-23. Leviticus priesthood under the law with tithes, death, discontinuity and its acceptance under glory of law without the great commission was done away in Christ and the Holy Priesthood of Christ without tithes, death and discontinuity with exceeding glory under which Christians are in salvation being a Holy nation and Loyal Priests to preach to the world GOD being their Father in New Covenant Ministry. In that He said, a new covenant He has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxed old is ready to vanish away Hebrew8:-13. God related with Adam and Eve in the garden of Aden under command of not eating from tree of knowledge and evil , Abraham related to God in faith when he was called out of Ur. The Israel related to God under law given to Moses under old the Covenant and we saved Christians relate to God under Spiritual law of love by grace in Jesus Christ in New Covenant where we get our salvation. Tithing weakens the Royal Priesthood of Christians in Christ where Christians are supposed to give themselves as living sacrifice in the mission vision fields. The Christians Royal Priesthood in Christ Jesus is internally weekend from within ,fought and economically drained mostly for indoors ministries under revival of Leviticus priesthood by pastors. The Royal Priesthood is internally spiritually emaciated and trodden upon.2 Corinthians2:1-13, 2Peter 2:5-9. Priesthood involves sacrifices and Jesus Christ did not choose Priesthood among the five fold ministry since all saved Christians are in the Royal Priesthood of Christ and we have been asked to give ourselves as living sacrifice. The priesthood was changed from the old covenant( Leviticus Priesthood) to the new covenant (Loyal Priesthood of labor in Christ without tithes allocations which is not appreciated) and the law governing it was changed Hebrews 7:7-12. Christ requested His disciples to give the crowd food to eat , Matthew 14:15-16. Jesus Christ told Peter look after his lambs and later to look after His sheep ( service) in clear shift from Leviticus priesthood which does not apply to Christians, John 21:15-17. JESUS CHRIST our High Priest , mediator of the better New Covenant.

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      Robert Munyui Kamaunyu 2 years ago

      Tithing was under and is under the law with a curse for Christians seeking salvation under the law, Galatians 3:3-13, Malachi 3:1-18. When pastors and priest quote Malachi 3:1-18, under the law IN OLD COVENANT , how many Christians line up to be served with food when tithes and offering under the law are given? Is the storehouse pastors' and priests' house or the Church? Saved Christians by grace IN NEW COVENANT , lead by the Holy Spirit are ministers of the new testament born of love with exceeding glory which surpassed the glory that was in law in Moses and we have been redeemed from the curse of the law to adoptions of sons in Royal Priesthood ( Pastors ,Priest and Bishops who are servants of God cannot subject sons of God in Royal Priesthood to tithe taxes- absolute illegal) and are not under the law, Galatians 5:1, Galatians4:4-5,2 Corinthians 3:1-18 . Salvation under the law one attains it at last breath on earth having done all that pertains to the law which is hard for one to accomplish. Even the tithe which was given by Abraham was under the law of sin and death from the fall of Adam and Eve. Those who cheat would like to deceive Christians that tithe was before the law but before which law. When Christ was born He was given gifts and not tithes Mathew 2:11-12. Salvation under spiritual law of love by grace is freely given and attained with free miracles from God our Father, Ephesians 2:4 -9, Ephesians 2:13 -20. Under Leviticus priesthood tithes were given for the tribe of Levi and tithe of tithe to the high Priest for they shared no land apart from the walled towns they were allocated to stay in for their continuous sacrifice to God, Numbers 18:20 -29.Widows, strangers ,fatherless and orphans benefited from tithes and offerings given to Levites, Deuteronomy 14:22-29. In Christianity widows were asked to be catered by close brethren to ease burden to the Church. There were also tithes of different kinds in Israel. There was also a tithe where a family had to eat all before the Lord, Deutreronomy12:6-7. In Christ Jesus we are saved by grace to adoptions of sons in Royal Priesthood of Christ and not by works of law ,Galatians 3:8-13,Acts13: 38-39, Galatians 4: 4-5, Galatians2:16-21, Galatians 5:18. Sons have direct access to the Father and free common inheritance not bought or worked for from the father. For servants ( Pastors and Priest) are servants of God worthy all respects and due help . NEW TESTAMENT two priesthood are compared Hebrew7: 7-28, Hebrew8:6 -13, Hebrew 9:6-9, Hebrew 10:8-23. Leviticus priesthood under the law with tithes, death, discontinuity and its acceptance under glory of law without the great commission was done away in Christ and the holy priesthood of Christ without tithes, death and discontinuity with exceeding glory under which Christians are in salvation being a Holy nation and Loyal Priests to preach to the world GOD being their Father in new covenant ministry. Tithing weakens the Royal Priesthood of Christians in Christ where Christians are supposed to give themselves as living sacrifice in mission fields. The Christians Royal Priesthood in Christ Jesus is internally weekend from within ,fought and economically drained mostly for indoors ministries under revival of Leviticus priesthood by pastors. The Royal Priesthood is internally spiritually emaciated and trodden upon.2 Corinthians2:1-13, 2Peter 2:5-9. Priesthood involves sacrifices. The priesthood was changed from the old covenant( Leviticus Priesthood) to the new covenant (Loyal Priesthood of labor in Christ without tithes allocations which is not appreciated) and the law governing it was changed. Jesus Christ told Peter look after his lambs and later to look after His sheep ( service) in clear shift from Leviticus priesthood John 21:15-17. Under Leviticus priesthood un animal for sacrifice was alive between the alter of sacrifice and the Levite priest holding the sacrificial knife. Sheep remained alive for a period of time only when they were delivered many animals for sacrifice and the alter could not hold them all for sacrifice .We are dead to sin and alive in Christ who live in us being a living sacrifice to God. Levite Pastors and Priest are comfortable with brethren who live like dead sacrifice. Levite priests were to labor to sacrifice and not tendering the flocks. Pastors and Priests who revive the Leviticus priesthood removed by Christ and merge it to the Loyal priesthood of Christ do so for personal gains in mass cheating for self tithes allocations. Leviticus priesthood under law remained hostile to the Ministry of Christ and His disciples who suffered in their hands even after Christ death. Levite priests beat and wanted to kill all disciples of Christ whom they told not to preach in His name. Acts 5:17-42. What pastors are not telling the Church (the bride/sons/ children) is the reason Christ had in choosing the twelve disciples ( under new covenant in Grace ) and opted not to use the Levite Priests ( in old covenant under law) that were well established and placed had they to be chosen preach to the world. LET PASTORS , BISHOPS AND PRIESTS HONESTLY PURGE THEIR HEARTS AND SPEAK THE TRUTH ON TITHES. CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW IN THE OLD COVENANT. The intrigue of doctrinal falsehood on tithes smartly engineered and flamboyantly taught by them worldwide cannot be justified or be cleansed by their religious social status. Let Bishops ,Pastors, Priests and Church Elders handle the Church of Christ within Christians doctrines established by Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles in the mission field vision. CHRISTIANS MUST FACE AND ADDRESS THE MASS SWEEPING AND SOOTHING FALSEHOOD TAUGHT BY SOME WELL EDUCATED ELITE CHRISTIANS ABOUT TITHES IN A SOBER SPIRITUAL REALITY FACE OUT . The Royal Priesthood in grace is quite different from Leviticus Priesthood under law. Leviticus Priesthood in the old covenant belonged to the Levite tribe among the eleven tribes in Israel but the Royal Priesthood in the new covenant under oppression and suppression belongs to all brethren in the world in Christ Jesus ( the body of Christ) who are commissioned to preach to the world. The Royal Priesthood is well placed to reach the world effectively at close quarters in Christ love. It is quite unfortunate that Christians unknowingly are victims of systematic unmarked professional intellectual falsehood commercialization cover up in tithes teaching by learned Christians brethren. But Christians have been warned not to be fools Ephesians 5:15-16. Tithing impoverish the Royal Priesthood of Christ which make the Great commission less effective. When all saved Christians are in Royal Priesthood, to whom do you tithe to in the new covenant?

      A fountain cannot produce sweet and bitter water the same time. James 3:8-18. We Christian are saved by GRACE IN CHRIST LOVE(Spiritual Law) for we cannot be subjected to law of sin and death crucified and done away by Christ on cross of Calvary. We are subjected to spiritual law of life in Christ Jesus and ought to have the spiritual understanding of the Word of God in liberty without corrupting the Word of God. Roman 8:1-2, Colossians 1:9-10. As God has blessed us in common inheritance of the saints, we should give sacrificially as we have purposed in our hearts in liberty and in love, Galatians 5:1, 2Corinthians 9;6-7, Galatians 6:6-7, Hebrew6:6-12,Hebrew13:11-16. Christ taught spiritual giving to God and to our parents, Luke 6:8 ,Matthew15:5-9. Paul also taught the same .2Corinthians 9:6-14, Philippians 2:4-5. Aaron was given unto Moses, the Levite tribe was given unto Aaron, the eleven tribes of Israel were given unto Levite tribe to serve them but we Christians are purchased through the blood of Christ we are no man servants but servants of Christ 1Corinthians 7:21-2 , God is our father and our readily help in times of needs and not men. Numbers 3:9-15. No servant can hinder children access to the Father and His blessed inheritance.

      Those under the law are under curse and the law kills 2Corinthians 3:6. Those lead by the Spirit are not un

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      oscar thomas 3 years ago

      The tithe was a requirement of the Law in which give 10 percent of the crops they grew and the livestock they raised to the temple. In fact, the Old Testament Law required multiple tithes—one for the Levites, one for the use of the temple and the feasts. Some understand the Old Testament tithe as a method of taxation to provide for the needs of the priests and Levites in the sacrificial system. The Tithing outlines are best for such information.

      http://www.thepreachersgoldmine.com

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      Repent! 3 years ago

      Congregating is nice, but how is this developing your relationship to get closer and closer to the Lord? For the most part these ministers/pastors are not going to encourage you to move on in the Lord by insisting that you study to further prepare yourself for your own work in the Lord, because we are all in the body for a reason to do something. But why wouldn’t they tell you this? First you might learn and know more than they do and second, they may have a fear of you leaving thus losing headcount, funds/money. We were never saved/called to follow a man to this degree. I have personally never met a true pastor. I’ve met a lot of preachers. A true pastor is a somewhat overseer and warns the people in hopes of not losing any brother or sister in Christ. So what is a mega Church? by the way this place we call the Church is actually a meeting place and it does not take a million dollar building, tents and folding chairs will do. But if you say you go to or you have a mega Church, then who is overseeing you properly or how are you overseeing thousands. Also as a large side note, or pretty much a question, Please show me in scripture this message that these ministers are preaching about health wealth and prosperity or any of these raising-money a-thons. Where and when did Jesus or any of the Apostles carry this message? We fall into many hurtful things by not knowing the scriptures. Do you people realize how many times these pastors have sent their kids to college on your money while you can’t send your kids? and buy these huge homes with the peoples money while you can barely afford your rent or do you even care? Do you think that these people are more loved or special than you in the sight of THE LORD? really? Interestingly the Apostle paul worked a job and provided for himself and if I’m correct I believe he said that he helped those around him. Although paul received some help here or there he also said that he rejected the people’s gold(money) and fine raiment. So are we saying that these pastors are above the Apostle paul? Absolutely NOT! unless we have lost our minds completely. Have we? People! we are bordering on Idolatry by placing a man above Christ or on the same level as Christ. The is a grave error and should be stopped immediately! I believe that we have lost perspective. This way of thinking did not come from above. As for the entire body of Christ, let no man deceive you. Let no man take you crown nor give it to him. Let no man/pastor/bishop or alleged prophet tell you that you have nothing to say as a member in the body of Christ. Please remember that you were personally invited to the wedding feast by The One who saved you and not by man. You are very important in the body of Christ and let no man tell you otherwise. We should be willing to give all to GOD through JESUS. That is our heart, mind, and body. Please do not be afraid to point out, speak up and expose any and everything that is not like GOD in accordance to the scriptures, no matter if they be a bishop or a pastor. Do these things internally. Keep JESUS first and endure till the end. Remember! in the world you will have trouble but in him you will have peace, but the scripture did not say: in the world you will have trouble but in him you’ll have peace. I found out the truth about the tithe and the no tithe under The New Covenant about 19 years after being saved and I did not receive it from a man directly. Also, lets not fall for the Abraham argument. Let’s not revert back! The last information that we were given concerning the tithe before the Old Covenant was closed off, is that! whatever the tithe was that suppose to have preceded the Law, be it the Abraham or Jacob tithe. The latest and the last update that we have is that The Lord gave all of the tenths/tithe to that particular tribe of Levi, and there is no known scripture that reverts us back to pre-law and even if there were to whom would we give them to? We would have to find Melchizedek, drum up some spoils of war, give the tenth part, and then give the 90th part back or 90% back, which would leave the tither with zero. None of these ministers/preachers/pastors/bishops/alleged prophets are Melchizedek nor a High Priest. As a side note: I have heard some of the Melchizedek Shem debate. Please read! Please read! Please study for yourselves and repent.

      Thanks for your time

      Your fellow servant in Christ

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      Repent! 3 years ago

      Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto GOD what is GODs. What in the world does that have to do with the tithe? Remember this one fact! The Lord speaks specific! He is the true truth! so when it comes down to it, let EVERY MAN be a LIE! and let GOD BE TRUE! I also believe that: Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s was referring to a literal tax imposed by Caesar. But render unto GOD what is GODs” is something that I believe Him to be saying: render the all of you to GOD, mind, body and soul in full service, day and night. The body of Christ is suffering because we are willingly ignorant. We will not study/read for ourselves. We rather be lazy and depend on a man/pastor/preacher instead of Jesus the one that saved us. Remember! Christ is the Head! everyone else is the body and that includes your pastors and bishops. They are merely your fellow servants. Everything that you want to know concerning TRUTH is all found in the WORD. If you want to know about the tithes, take time out and commune with the Lord in His Word and He with show you The Truth about the tithe, if you really want to know! The tenth/tithe is simply of a food source and has been given to a specific tribe of Israel, the Levites! Numbers 18. The tenths/tithes is not on a filthy buck but on FOOD! and I challenge anyone to find in scripture where the tenths have been changed from food to money by the Lord Himself or where is it written any where in the scriptures that the tenths/tithes have been transferred from the Levitical priesthood and given to a gentile minister/preacher/pastor/prophet/bishop. We are all priest in the body of Christ. Please don’t believe that lie that they did not have money back then because that is a huge lie, study it for yourself. This false tithe that men take today and it’s frequency is not found written anywhere in my Bible according to my 4 years of research. Can anyone tell me if they have received a poor tithe or did you even know that it existed? What about the festival tithe? this tithe was eaten before the Lord in the place that he would prescribe. We were all duped by following man/pastors with the book of Malachi, and it’s our own fault! All we had to do was to read the book of Malachi starting with chapter 1. The Lord clearly say’s who He is speaking to, and it is not us. He tells you plainly who is robbing him and what nation he is talking to, the scripture did not say the ENTIRE WORLD. He is speaking to a specific people in a specific nation, and if I may say the windows of Heaven is simply rain, and meat in MY house is simply food and the devourer is literary insects/bugs eating up the crops. So the question is! why are these ministers telling us this falsehood, it isn’t but two reasons why. They are unlearned and are following the traditions of men or they are doing this intentionally, either way they are wrong. If by tradition of men! then why are you telling people things that you know not about, or on the other hand, if done intentionally! it is our job to confront these wicked ministers and to expose them, or continue to sin with them. Remember! there is no mediator between GOD and man but JESUS alone, NOT any PASTOR or any man, they are just your fellow servant. Also why do we give to one man/pastor? The scripture says that he is to get his living from the Gospel NOT TO MAKE his living off the Gospel. Have we lost our minds! Why do we continue to give to one man and neglect our brother or sister sitting right next to us? Have you ever realized that you have to wait mystically, in faith, on your financial blessing! but the pastor gets his right off the top which takes no faith at all. So either the Lord loves a certain part of the body more than the other, or we have this thing all wrong. Listen, if I have anywhere from 3000-30,000 people that I have convinced to give me money every Sunday and Wednesday twice in one day! and some Monday’s! then guess what! I am paid, and this does not include this unscriptural tithe that they take, that does not belong to them. Sorry, but for the most part the gathering should be for those that have a need, that the needs of the people might be met. We are all guilty of making one brother/pastor/fellow servant wealthy and left all others in the same body lacking, and then we actually believed that this foolishness was from the Lord, to boot! Why would we keep giving to one person that is obviously well supplied and fed. We knew to stop in our hearts when we seen the Mansions and Rolls Royces plus the benzes. What part of this resembles Jesus, john the baptist, or any of the Apostles. We have over paid these pastors/members in the body of Christ and don’t even realize that we have done evil. This is not what took place in the early Church as per the book of Acts. They at least tried to meet the needs of the brethren that there would be no lack, and I don’t mean making one rich or excusing anyone from working a job. Let’s get one thing straight, these pastors, preachers, bishops, and alleged prophets are NOT Apostles. You all know full well that you can’t find any of the apostles or Christ himself asking for or receiving a tithe. How could they? When all of the tithes were given to the tribe of the Levtical priesthood by GOD for the work they do for serving at the meeting tent, and that’s within Israel. So let’s stop equating these gentile pastors and bishops to the tribe of Levite or The High Priest, in which JESUS CHRIST himself alone is now our High Priest and not any man. By the way, who told you as a gentile to pay a tithe? was it a man or the Lord? Before you answer, back up your answer with scripture and not with what a man told you. That would be putting man before God. To really know the truth about the tithe and any other partial or snippet of scripture that you think that you were taught by these alleged pastors, you would have to step away from the visible Church house and go directly to your source, The Word of God and ask the One that created you, saved you and The one that you plan on spending all of eternity with, and see if He will not help you. Also the visible Church is not the Church, the people that make up the body of Christ is the true Church, in fact any body in the body of Chist is the Church. Be not deceived! quite a bit of these ministers may have started off well, but have become overtaken by money, fame (egged on by the people), and their own ego. Remember! you cannot serve mammon and God. If you think that this can be done by the majority of ministers, just see if they will sell all and give to the poor. Ok, lets try this, how many people do you know personally that have been healed? 1 person 2 people? half of the people or all of the people? how many delivered? how many raised from the dead? or how many made wealthy among you? as if the gospel was delivered to us to make us wealthy. The scriptures say that the poor you have with you all way, but you see that we have a conflict! the lot of these ministers say that you are suppose to be rich. So who’s lying here? We know it’s not The Word of God. We have fallen into all of this false teaching and twisting of scripture because we will not study! or in better words: commune with GOD through JESUS in His Word, The Bible. We have substituted getting to know our Husband The LORD by not studying, and have looked instead for brownie points by going out to a building that we call the Church every Sunday and Wednesday and saying within ourselves that this should be a credit to my account for getting into Heaven, knowing full well that we have not learned anything, but you can say that the Choir was nice or on point and things like, he sure did preach! He preached what? Do you mean that he was entertaining? because for the most part the saint that has been saved for any period of time have already heard this same message. We’ve heard the gospel preached, received the Gospel and are now saved. So why do you keep listening to the Gospel message again and again after you have believed and received. Shouldn’t we ought to be spreading the gospel after we have received it? Congregating is nice, but how is this developing y

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      J De Martine 4 years ago

      After Jesus died and sent the Holy Spirit , we began the New Covenant .

      This is the New Covenant in my blood ". Luke 22:20

      Romans 7:6 "In the new covenant we serve God in a ~new way~ in the Holy Spirit , not the written code ". Ephesians 2:15" He abolished the law, made it obsolete ".

      We give from our 'hearts' , cheerfully, generously , according to what we have NOT what we don't have ". 2 Corinthians 8:12

      The word used us "gifts " in the New Covenant , means " grace " in the Greek. You can't give from your own ' hearts ' and book of law both !!

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      J De Martine 4 years ago

      After Jesus died and sent the Holy Spirit , we began the New Covenant .

      This is the New Covenant in my blood ". Luke 22:20

      Romans 7:6 "In the new covenant we serve God in a ~new way~ in the Holy Spirit , not the written code ". Ephesians 2:15" He abolished the law, made it obsolete ".

      We give from our 'hearts' , cheerfully, generously , according to what we have NOT what we don't have ". 2 Corinthians 8:12

      The word used us "gifts " in the New Covenant , means " grace " in the Greek. You can't give from your own ' hearts ' and book of law both !!

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      Brainstormgraffx 4 years ago

      How about simply "Trusting God" with our money and time. God does not need our money. However, obedience to His Word calls us to tithe. How about the blessings that come from "faithful tithing". The best example of giving unto the Lord was the woman Jesus pointed out who gave but a "mite" and it was all she had. This woman showed true Trust in God with all she had. I believe this was the example Jesus wants us to follow. Tithing is not a "monetary" issue, but a "trust" issue. If we love the Lord we will obey Him. Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God... AMEN

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      THEWORDOLOGIST 4 years ago

      Yes tithing was before the Law but so was animal sacrifice (when Cain killed Abel). So are we still practicing animal sacrifice ?

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      D. Davis 5 years ago

      Straight from the word of God how one was required to tithe by God. Lovers of tithing believe in tithing their way not but according to God's commandments. Tithing according to the author of tithing.Every third year you must offer a special tithe of your crops. In this year of the special tithe you must give your tithes to the Levites, foreigners, orphans, and widows, so that they will have enough to eat in your towns.

      "For the tithe of the sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance; therefore I have said concerning them, 'They shall have no inheritance among the sons of Israel.

      Thou shalt truly TITHE all the increase OF THY SEED, that the FIELD bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, IN THE PLACE which he shall CHOOSE to place HIS NAME THERE, the tithe of thy CORN [raw grain], of thy WINE [fresh grapes], and of thine OIL [ripe olives], and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be TOO FAR from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou TURN IT INTO MONEY, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt GO unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul LUSTETH after, for oxen, or for sheep, or FOR WINE, or FOR STRONG DRINK, or for whatsoever thy soul DESIRETH: and thou shalt EAT THERE before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household . . . -- Deut. 14:22-26

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      onelove1970 5 years ago

      With all that God has done for us, why are we questioning tithing to Him? Everyone claims to do research and come up with their version of the so call Truth. It is your opinion. Everyone interpret the bible different. Some interpret it to make it say what they want to hear. Talk about truth hears the Truth. God gave him only son for our sins. And you questioning giving a 10th? Really?

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @William,

      Tithing is not a man-made religion and teaching - YOUR assumptions and conclusions are simply man-made. That is why you will not find any verse in the entire Bible condemning tithing even once! Rather, it is 'negative attitudes' to any type of giving that the Bible condemns.

      Your style of argument is very weak indeed. Just because neither Jude, John, Peter nor Luke mentioned a particular word in the NT, it does not therefore condemn anyone who tithes today. Arguing like you do will only make your own faith an empty riddle.

      For example, Jesus did not once even mention the word 'GRACE' to any of the apostles or disciples - He DID NOT use the word 'grace' even once in all His earthly preaching and ministry. Do we then conclude that 'grace' is a man-made religion and teaching dribbled into the NT?

      There are MANY other words or terms that we as Christians have embraced today which you will not find even once mentioned by ANY of the writers of the Bible. A prime example is 'TRINITY' - and in the same manner as you argue, Christians have gone to war over the Trinity with many people concluding that it is 'man-made'. You will be surprised to find the number of anti-tithers who condemn the teaching of the Trinity simply because it does not appear as a word ANYWHERE in the Bible.

      Christians can express their giving in various forms - including tithing. That does not bring us under the Law of Moses as many anti-tithers dubiously and erroneously conclude. If your problem is about whether or not the apostles used a particular word in the NT, rest your heart - there's no anathema to those who tithe.

      Anti-tithers who argue over which words were used by the apostles will NEVER tell you that they (anti-tithers) also use many OLD Testament words which NONE of the apostles ever used in the NT! For example, you will hear or read of anti-tithers talking about 'freewill offering' for Christian giving - BUT you will not find any verse in the New Testament that uses the word 'freewill'.

      We know that 'freewill' is used only in the OLD Testament (at least, no less than 10 times in the Law of Moses); but why do anti-tithers NEVER tell you that the apostles condemned 'freewill offering' because it was used in the Law of Moses for the Jews?? Why do anti-tithers NEVER tell you that 'freewill' is a man-made religion simply because Paul did not mention anything about it to Titus? Why do you NEVER read any anti-tither condemning 'freewill offering' just because neither Jude, John, Peter, or Luke mentioned that term ANYWHERE in the NT?

      I hope you can see the weakness of your argument? Just because a word was not used by any of the apostles in the NT, or just because a specific word was used by the Jews, does not therefore mean that Christians who apply those concepts are inclining to your idea of 'man-made religion'.

      As I said, concepts in themselves are not the problem - rather, YOUR own presumptions of those concepts are fatally flawed. If you apply your style of reasoning to your own Christian life, there would be absolutely NOTHING left of your Christianity - because MANY of the words and terms that most Christians believe today are not found anywhere in the Bible.

      If you don't give, good for you. If you do give, then let others have the freedom to give as they have chosen to do so - including tithing - without drawing baseless and weak arguments that amount to nothing.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Eric,

      Thank you. Your concise and frank comments should sum it up for wise readers. It so happens again and again that while many people are actually looking for 'reasons' not to tithe, one will not find even a handful of anti-tithers who are willing to give up EVERYTHING they have in order to follow Jesus.

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      Sue Ellen 5 years ago

      Correction: Not Romans 3:10, is is Galatians 3:10

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      Sue Ellen 5 years ago

      If a person desides to give ten percent of their money received to the church, this is a good thing and a blessing to all. If a person pays being demanded or put under a law by man to tithe ten percent of their money to the church, they are following a man made law. The Mosaic Law never told God's children to give ten percent of their money to the temple and neither did Abraham, Jesus or the Deciples. We are under Grace. If you want to be among the pharisees in Matthew 23:23, be one but remember Romans 3:10 as you try to obey the Mosiac Law.

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      William 5 years ago

      I wonder why Paul did not emphasize importance of tithing to his young brother, Timothy? Paul wrote about qualification to be leader in book of Titus, yet Paul did not mention anything about Tithes?

      How come Jude, John, Peter and Luke never mention importance of tithing as obey Lord in rest of New Testament?

      So... tithing may be man-made religion and teaching.

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      rachel 5 years ago

      Oh my word! Amen Adam0987653!! Why could it not have ended there?? If I wasn't already a Christian who is firmly established in my faith, reading this would only confirm what the world says about Christians-they are a bunch of hypocrites! For claiming to know your Bible so well, you are missing the point. The Bible is full of gray areas but, it is pretty clear that we are to love one another as we love ourselves and as Christ loved us, and we are to grow in our likeness of Christ. I don't sense a lot of love or godliness in this "conversation", and no one is fooled by the smiley faces. Whether you tithe (or whatever you want to call it) or not is between you and God. Obviously there is a right answer and you can give your opinion for why you believe what you do but it's not your job to convict or convince others any more than it's their job to do that to you. If you want to have an arguement about it, do it in private. You should be ashamed of yourselves...

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      @Eric,

      Not looking for a reason not to tithe, but rather looking for truth.

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      Eric 5 years ago

      Dont ask if tithing has been changed because of Laws that were and are ask yourself why you are looking for a reason not to tithe. Ask yourself if Jesus asked you to give up everything you had and follow Him, would you?

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      Gracie 5 years ago

      If you want to think of what Jesus thought of the tithe paying Pharisees who were still bound by the Old Covenant since Jesus had not yet died on the cross to fulfill the law, it is right there in Matthew 23:23. He not only did not praise them for tithing but went on to say tithing was the least important aspect of the law. So there, all you modern day boasters and braggers your tithing Pharisees! Jesus didn't congratulate them and neither will he congratulate you for stealing his glory and taking credit for the Lord's free daily grace and giving it to yourselves for your tithe payment. Better check you may have fallen from grace and not saved! See Galatians Galatians 5:4

      "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace".

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      Eloise 5 years ago

      When you find God's beautiful Grace & remove yourself from mixture you will truly see blessing from God! Most people under the tithing law will never enter God's complete rest or see his beautiful side. Why because you are under a dangerous mix & have fallen from grace! Your works of giving to get God to bless you will never happen! You are trying to live like an Old Testament Jew! You are a gentile & even the Jewish do not tithe because there is not a Levitcal priesthood to give the tithes to! Try asking God where your money should go! Maybe your neighbor is poor & that's where it should go! God directs our steps, not some preacher from the pulpit trying to pad his wallet!! Find true Grace & you will find a faithful Father! Quit trying to get God to bless you through your tithe as you have fallen from His grace! Read your bible correctly & know who the apostles are talking to! Are you a Jew a gentile a gnostic? If you are a gentile then know that Paul is for you & not anyone else!!

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      DF 5 years ago

      Yes Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but Tithe enforcers stop there, keep reading where Jesus said he came to FULFILL IT. Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes.

      NO one but our sinless Savior fulfilled the whole law to a tee with perfection!

      One day some Christians are going to get a revelation of the word GRACE and Paid in Full. One day they are going to understand Galatians 3:13-14 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law and verse 14 explains it is because of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that we have the blessings of Abraham. One day the body of Christ will understand Jesus blood was sufficient for God with Christ to FREELY GIVE US ALL THINGS. One day they will understand when they quote Hebrews about Jesus being a High Priest that they need to keep reading Hebrews where it says in Hebrews 7:18 "The former requirements are rejected because they are weak and useless". One day I pray Christians understand that Jesus words on the Cross- Paid in full, does not mean PAY IN FULL!

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      DF 5 years ago

      Dear Oscar Wms and others like him. Abraham's one time tithe is not the same as Christian tithing. If you want to tithe like Abraham you would have to fight a war against 5 Evil leaders (or Kings) win the war, take the material stuff from the war then tithe one time with somebody's else's stuff! Stop trying to make a square into a circle. Abraham was not a continual tither on his personal money and things.

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      Peace 5 years ago

      Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it". Therefore, it seems that we should defer to the tithe as set forth in Deut. 14:22-29

      22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

      28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied,

      SINCE JESUS IS THE HIGH PRIEST, WE ARE TO TITHE TO HIM. Let us not forget to do as the scripture says, "

      22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain,...

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      YAHWEHTRUTH 5 years ago

      The purpose of tithing, found in Deuteronomy 14:22-23 (NLT), is made clear: to “teach you always to fear the Lord your God.” By practicing good tithing habits, scripture tells us we are showing God our desire to put him first place in our lives.

      According to the above verse Deuteronomy 14:22-23, we are to tithe the increase of our seed year by year and to take our tithe to the place chosen by him and eat it. If the place it is too far away, we are to convert to money and when we arrive then we buy whatever our heart desires and then eat it before the lord our God.

      Doesn't sound like this scripture applies to what is taught in churches today. Do you take your tithe to church and spend it?

      A study of the scriptures prove that tithe is never money.

      Jews and Messianic Jews do not tithe today. There is no temple and they are no Levite priests. Modern tithing was thought up in the 5th century as a way to provide to the churches. It is not biblical.

      In the NT, giving freely is encouraged, but never tithing.

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      Gavin Mcleod 5 years ago

      Www.tithingdebate.com. Tithes were never commanded to Christians but early Israel. See this insightful website.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      I did not post the above comment. Someone illegally used my name on that post. To use someone else's name like that it immoral, illegal, and just plain shows lack of character.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      I like to argue and debate. I think that is what God really wants is for others to see us "Christians" arguing.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      @Pastor C,

      Since the New Testament (New Covenant) doesn't begin until after Calvary, Matthew 23:23 doesn't apply. There is NO teaching of tithing in the scriptures after Calvary. None.

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      Pastor C 5 years ago

      Yes, it's in the New Covenant!

      Not only is the truth of the tithe in both testaments, but the New Testament approaches

      tithing as being timeless and as always being offered by grace, not law! Never make

      the mistake of failing to remember that all God's blessings and covenants are always a

      gift of His grace, always initiated in His love and always sustained by His mercy.

      Jesus Himself addressed the issue of tithing. Both Matthew and Luke record an occasion when, confronting that tough breed of religionists—the Pharisees—He strikes out at their habit of ritually attending to the letter of Old Testament law, yet entirely avoiding its deep, honor-with-your-heart spiritual demands.

      "'Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and

      cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and

      faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone'" (Matt. 23:23,

      NKJV; see also Luke 11:42).

      Now look closely with me so we make no mistake about what is and what isn't said.

      People deserve to be shown that the "woe" Jesus announces on the religious fakery of these hypocrites was not for their tithing, but for their neglect of faith's "weightier matters." In pressing His point, He doesn't condemn their fidelity in tithing (indeed, they were even weighing out the tithe of the tiniest of spices—mint and cummin!)

      Here's God's chance to clear the decks. If tithing was unimportant to the Savior—now to become meaningless under the new order—He could have said, "Take care of justice and mercy, and quit bothering with tithing—mint, cummin or anything else!"

      But rather, our Savior, whose habit is to say, "You have heard it said, but I say unto you," does nothing to dismiss the concept of tithing. Instead He reinforces it, saying, "These you ought to have done" (a clear reference to their tithing) "and not to leave the others undone" (referencing their shallow attitudes and manifest heartlessness regarding justice and mercy).

      Also note how, as Jesus touches on tithing, He employs the word ought—a powerfully significant word usage of "the moral imperative," thereby acknowledging tithing as "something that ought to be." With His "ought," Jesus is essentially declaring the practice of tithing as a precept that "should not to be violated," making tithing a practice transcending the Old or New covenants, and as instead being a part of God's intended natural order for humankind

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      Adam0987653 5 years ago

      If we draw near to Him we will know the very heart of our Father. If we don't draw near to Him we can give and tithe all we want and it won't mean a thing. Beloved, let us keep focus on what matters most to God and that is communion with Him. You will find that doing His will is a lot easier if we can just maintain communion. It will give the great commission, He has given to us, power for it is His will that none should perish but that all would have everlasting life!!!

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      Adam0987653 5 years ago

      I think all of these pride full theological debates going on in here are a religious mockery of the message God truly intended to get across to us in the first place. Jesus said: Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted, and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3-4). Gary my question to you is if I believe in my heart that I am a sinner and recognize and believe in my heart that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came to earth as a poor humble servant to die for the penalty of my sins, but pay ten percent(what we call tithing) or more to my bible believing church, will I die and go to hell? On the flip side, my question to you Tymon, if I believe in my heart that I am a sinner and recognize and believe in my heart that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came to the earth as a poor humble servant, to die for the penalty of my sins, but do not tithe, only giving a weekly offering of what I believe in my heart God asks me to give, will I die and go to hell? Can anyone see that the bible was written as a love story of this heavenly Father who created US to be His children. What a beautiful picture He paints in His Word. God created all of us to be His children so that we can call Him Father. He created us so that He would have us to care for and to Love. He created us for intimate fellowship. So that means he created you Gary, Tymon, and everyone else in this conversation to not only love YOU but for your heart to connect to His heart the same way a fathers heart connects to his child's heart. He doesn't want you to view Him or relate to Him as "God your creator" from a religious point of view, He wants to relate to you as a father does to his son, who will give His very life for you. He loves you, my brothers, so much that He left His majestic position in heaven and took the form of a poor humble servant to be reunited with you. Doesn't that revelation resonate with love in the depths of your spirit? He gave His life for YOU!!! He gave His life in such a gruesome, tortuous way, to satisfy the consequence of sin, in our lives, for those who would just, very simply and innocently, believe in Him as a child believes and trusts his parents. That's how much He loves you. The bible is a story of a Father that created His children so that He could love them and they could love Him back. Can anyone imagine how Gods heart broke when His children ate the fruit and sin corrupted His perfect world. How His eyes filled with tears as He had to ask His children, whom he loved so dearly, to leave the home He had created for them. He had to tell them "this is no longer your true home. Its not the place for you anymore". Oh, how loving our Father is in that before they left the garden He made clothes for his children to cover them. He gently clothed them then sent them away. Out of the garden. Out of their home. As He watched with a broken heart, tears filling His eyes, as His children were leaving the garden, He knew, even though He would suffer greatly, one day he would get His children back. He had a plan, you see. One day, He would make for them a perfect home again. One day, He would wipe away every tear from His children's eyes. You see, no matter what, in spite of everything, God would love His children with an everlasting, eternal love. Though they would forget Him and run from Him and hide from Him, deep in their hearts, Gods children would miss Him always and long for Him. Lost children yearning for their home with their Father. But before they left the garden, God whispered a promise to His children. He said: "it will not always be this way". He said: "I will come back for you! I will come to rescue you and when I do I'm going to do battle against the snake! Ill get rid of the sin, the darkness, and the sadness you let in here. I'm coming back for you"!!!And He would. One day, God himself would come. Can anyone see? With God, its not about who's right or who's not right because Gary and Tymon, your wisest thought and concept is foolishness to God. What matters to Him is what is your relationship to Him. God catches those who think they are wise in their own cleverness. The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are worthless. I beg you to stop trying to be wise and just simply, humbly, and innocently be His children. My brothers, He is asking us to have faith and trust in Him, as a little child has in his parents. When a toddler is in need, he reaches up to his mom or dad with open arms. There is no doubt in the child's mind his parents will care for him. He knows mom or dad will pick him up and comfort his need. This is the kind of faith and trust God is looking for in us. Having faith that when we reach out to Him, He will be there for us, trusting Him for comfort. Knowing that His plan is the best plan for our lives. ?Jesus said, "I assure you, unless you become as little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. ?Therefore, anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. ?And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming Me.Mathew 18:3,4 Paul said ?here's what you should do. You may eat any meat that is sold in the marketplace. Don't ask whether or not it was offered to idols, and then your conscience won't be bothered. ?For "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." ?If someone who isn't a Christian asks you home for dinner, go ahead; accept the invitation if you want to. Eat whatever is offered to you and don't ask any questions about it. Your conscience should not be bothered by this. ?But suppose someone warns you that this meat has been offered to an idol. Don't eat it, out of consideration for the conscience of the one who told you. ?It might not be a matter of conscience for you, but it is for the other person. Now, why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks? ?If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it? ?Whatever you eat or drink or whatever you do, you must do all for the glory of God. ?Don't give offense to anyone if you can help it. ?That is the plan I follow, too. I try to please everyone in everything I do. I don't just do what I like or what is best for me, but what is best for them so they may be saved. Now, can anyone see the heart of God in its simplicity as Paul sees it. Can we all agree that the above statements, Paul made, are not just in reference to meat. He brings forth this idea of loving our neighbors. Gary if Tymon wants to pay tithes to his church he is free in Christ to do so and Tymon on the same note, if Gary wants to give offerings to his church he is free in Christ to do so. As Paul gives insight into the heart of our Father can I challenge everyone here to just trust and believe God is able to speak to you, or anyone who believes for that matter, if its that important. Gary, concerning giving, I believe it is a matter of the heart and communion with our Father and always has been. But I also believe that the fervant prayers of the righteous availeth much. I believe I can pray for everyone in here and if the topic of paying tithes is really what concerns God the most, he can change the hearts of anyone who doesn't line up with His heart. Let us pray for and love everyone instead of engaging in useless fruitless debates. Gary simply petition our Father on behalf of Tymon and Tymon petition our Father on behalf of Gary. If either of you have already done so, you have done the will of God. Gary, Tymon, my brothers, you can't change each others heart or anyone's heart for that matter. Only God can. I think Paul said it best when he said my job was to plant the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God, not we, who made it grow. ?The ones who do the planting or watering aren't important, but God is important because he is the one who makes the seed grow. Do we really believe when we are standing face to face with our Father in heaven, who moved heaven and earth to be near us, tithing is going to be a topic of conversation. Its about relationship. If we draw near to Him we will know the very heart o

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      mark 5 years ago

      speek ill of no one

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      One would not expect you to read since you're intellectually challenged. The best you can do is crawl back to your cubicle and upgrade your lying techniques for another anti-tithing propaganda.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      I'm not even going to bother reading or responding to your garbage this time. You have shown me your lack of knowledge and intelligence. No more needs to be said.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      You: "All of this proves that tithing cannot possible be a good word to use for our giving today since there is no standard in place. There need be no standard for giving other than being led by the Spirit."

      All your fallacies and duplicity prove nothing essentially of substance against tithing. Many people who tithe today have had no problems using the word 'tithing' - and they do so because it is a good word in expressing part of their committed giving, as well because they are led by the Spirit.

      On the contrary, anti-tithing jingoists who do not recognize the leading of the Spirit in tithers draw fallacious conclusions to prove nothing. The nice little cliché of 'led by the Spirit' is often used to disguise anti-tithers' duplicity and hypocrisy. While you may grumble that tithing has to do with one's ego, you have no qualms blowing your trumpet in your hypocrisy about giving 20% of your income.

      Tell me, if Christians who tithe should follow your conclusions and lifestyle in reality, what would be the state of the Church today when people like you NO LONGER attend church services?

      The only thing you have proven here is your elaborate vanity, which we read in Jude 19 - "These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit." If you're being led by the Spirit, why are you no longer attending church services but rather chose to separate yourself?

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      You: "Since gross income is not in the Bible, why would anyone want to base their standard for tithing on tax laws that vary from state to state and country to country?"

      It's obvious that you're trying hard to funnel your duplicity into my comments. Where have I based my standard for tithing on varying tax laws across countries?

      To show that your argument has no bearing in my comments anywhere, I have maintained that tithing should be of one's volition and should be voluntary. In fact, just 6 days ago in response to Janet's argument, I clearly stated:

      "Anyways, without arguing for whether giving should be from one's net or gross income, my view has always been - let it be done VOLUNTARILY. Giving voluntarily, in my view, does not have to rest heavily on whether it is from one's gross or net income - whether that giving is through tithes, offerings, contributions or fellowships, etc."

      So, please tell: if I did not argue such things as you have claimed, why are you trying to funnel your manufactured lies into my comments?

      ___

      Yours: "Tithing has nothing to do with the tax laws."

      Nice to read how you're shifting gears in your hypocrisy now.

      You and many anti-tithers I know have tried to surreptitiously connect 'tax' and 'tithes' without acknowledging that 'tithing has nothing to do with tax laws.'

      Just 19 months ago, you viewed tithing as a 'mandatory customary tax', arguing that Abraham's gift to Melchizedek was a "tithe-tax". Then 9 months ago, you tried once more to connect tithes and tax by saying that 'the "principle" of the Lord's Tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18) is the principle of taxation."

      Since the anti-tithing duplicity of connecting tithes to tax has been challenged, you now change your song to saying that tithing has nothing to do with tax laws - only as a convenient mechanical device to obfuscate the real issues surrounding your indefensible lies. You just keep recycling your duplicity, manufacturing more excuses to cover up the previous ones, and then try to funnel your fallacies into my comments so you can sleep well at night.

      ___

      Yours: "There are many other adjustments made before getting to the total income line."

      Piffle. I did not argue against adjustments, and indeed I quoted the reference to adjustments in computing one's gross income as stipulated in the examples of the forms I inferred earlier (e.g., NY-1040NR). Try another lame hat-trick.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Yours: "Tymon wants to use the tax laws as her standard for determining gross income, not the Bible."

      May I remind you: my username DOES NOT suggest female. I guess you're the only twerp in the US who does not know that Tymon is a male's name and a variant of Tymothy (meaning, 'God's honour'). So, everytime you refer to me as a 'she' or 'her', it shows how socially awkward and illiterate you must be.

      My rejoinders on the issue of gross income was in direct response to your lie that earners have to add "ALL" fringe benefits to their gross income, and I used US government publications to show how dubious your claim on adding "ALL" fringe benefits has been!

      Since you can't find anything to cover up for that hideous claim of adding "ALL" fringe benefits, you now try to twist the real issue here by arguing your vacuous fallacies once more.

      ___

      Yours: "That is where Tymon introduces the tax laws for the definition of gross income"

      I have drawn from definitions of gross income from US government departments. I did not "introduce" the US tax laws in definitions different from theirs - and even YOU Gary have used the same definitions of gross income as defined by the US Government. So what is your quibbling all about?

      ___

      Yours: "Tymon wants to use the tax laws as her standard for determining gross income, not the Bible."

      This shows again how really stupid you must be. How many anti-tithers have used the Bible to "determine" gross income?

      As far as I can tell, you're the very first person to mention 'gross income' on this hub 19 months ago, and then also 9 months ago. Did YOU "determine" gross income from the Bible in those two instances?

      How come you're alarmed that Tymon has not "determined" the 'gross income' from the Bible when infact you argued that "gross income is not in the Bible"? Are you not the same fellow who said 2 days ago that, "5% of a persons gross income might represent 100% of their giving to a church"? Did you then determine your 'gross income' in that instance from the Bible? What a silly old hypocrite you must be!

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      Quote from Tymon: “You call yourself an accountant and you have NEVER heard of 'non-taxable fringe benefits' in the US? If indeed there are benefits which are non-taxable or excluded from gross income, how then are you asserting that "they MUST add ALL fringe benefits"? What sort of manufactured lie are you involved in today?”

      That is where Tymon introduces the tax laws for the definition of gross income. Tymon wants to use the tax laws as her standard for determining gross income, not the Bible. Since gross income is not in the Bible, why would anyone want to base their standard for tithing on tax laws that vary from state to state and country to country? Tithing has nothing to do with the tax laws.

      Quote from Tymon: “I never once confused between tithes and taxes - and you know me very well on such things. If you want to treat tithes like tax on incomes, please yourself - but asking me what they have to do with each other is a fool's errand on your part, since you can't drag me into that hubris of yours.”

      It is Tymon, not me, that wants to use the definition of gross income FOR TAX PURPOSES when figuring the tithe, not me. That is why I have taken the definition FOR TAX PURPOSES and make the adjustments necessary to get the true gross income.

      Quote from Tymon: “On page 1 of Form 1040, you will find the "total income" - and that is known as your "gross income", sir.”

      I have proven that the TOTAL INCOME line is NOT known as gross income by giving several examples. That is why the IRS doesn’t call that line “gross income.” Doesn’t take a Ph.D. to figure that out.

      Quote from Tymon: “'IRS Form 1040 requires reporting of certain kinds of income, which are then added together to constitute what is referred to as "GROSS INCOME." From the gross income figure, certain deductions are then taken to arrive at an "adjusted gross income."

      Get it now?

      When applicable deductions are made on the "total income" (the same as "gross income")”

      Wrong again. To get to the total income line there are several adjustments made, depending on many things. Example: if your income is below a certain amount, no Social Security income appears on the total line, but that income is a part of the gross income. There are many other adjustments made before getting to the total income line.

      Again, Tymon is the one using tax laws to come up with his definition of gross income.

      All of this proves that tithing cannot possible be a good word to use for our giving today since there is no standard in place. There need be no standard for giving other than being led by the Spirit.

      It is plain for me to see that so-called tithers are using the word tithing to try and relate what they are doing to the Biblical tithe. Why else would anyone want to “express” their giving by “tithing”?? It all has to do with one’s ego.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Yours: "I quoted US FEDERAL LAW, and you STILL want to argue."

      Your initial claim had nothing in it about 'Federal Law', so please don't try to manufacture anything about 'federal' whatever into your original denial.

      You made a categorically broad statement in total denial of earners reporting their gross income in tax returns. Let me quote you again:

      'In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income".'

      I notice you cleverly dodged answering the questions I asked about the meaning of the explanation given by the US Department of Housing and Urban Development. Too difficult for you, Gary?

      I also noticed how you cleverly dodged saying anything about the example of Form NJ-1040NR that clearly shows where earners report their "GROSS INCOME". Why? You were alarmed incase your initial claim turns out to be the empty drivel it has always been?

      In lines 28 and 29 of Form NJ-1040NR, you will find this -

      "28. GROSS Income (Subtract Line 27c from Line 26) . . ."

      "29. Gross Income (From page 1, Line 28) . . . . . . . . . ."

      Please get a copy of the Form NJ-1040NR and post those two lines here for all to see if they are any different from what I posted above. Will you please do so and show that lines 28 and 29 said nothing about "GROSS INCOME"?

      1. You claimed "NOWHERE" does a wage earner report his "gross income" - but Form NJ-1040NR counters that claim.

      2. You claimed it is not done in the US ("In the US, nowhere on a tax return") - again, Form NJ-1040NR counters your denial, unless you want to magically deny that New Jersey is in the US!

      3. You claimed NOWHERE on "a tax return" and said nothing about 'FEDERAL' this or that - yet again, Form NJ-1040NR is an example of "a tax return", and lines 28 and 29 of that form is where earners report the figure for their "GROSS INCOME".

      Now, as has always been your forte, lie once more.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      There is NO line on the US Form 1040 where a wage earner reports his gross income. Period.

      The TOTAL INCOME line is NOT gross income.

      Example: In my example of wages = $50,000 and capital losses = $40,000, ignoring all else, the gross income would be $10,000. However, the TOTAL INCOME line would show $47,000 since the US law limits capital losses to $3,000 per year with the balance carried forward to later years.

      Another example: Social Security is part of a persons gross income. But the TOTAL INCOME line either includes a portion of that income or none of that income, depending on other income reported on the return. Again, TOTAL INCOME is not gross income.

      There are many other examples I can give.

      YOU said that TOTAL INCOME was the gross income. I have, once again, proven you wrong. All along I have been saying federal and IRS, not New Jersey or some other state. Even on a New Jersey return do you report your true gross income. That is why the INSTRUCTIONS for these returns give DIFFERENT directions for different reporting tests and the instructions tell you what to include or exclude from that so-called gross income. In all case, it is an ADJUSTED gross income.

      Stop this nonsense and get a life. You just can't stand admitting that you are wrong. WRONG. WRONG. YOU ARE WRONG.

      YOU are the one misleading people. YOU ought to be ashamed of yourself. You think you are an expert in all areas and the truth it, you know so very little when it comes to taxes.

      I quoted US FEDERAL LAW, and you STILL want to argue. You are a very sad example of a so-called Christian. Janet is right. You are NOT a nice person at all. All you want to do is argue for the sake of arguing.

      I am done arguing with you. But I know you MUST ALWAYS have the last say, so go ahead and spit out some more trash for everyone to see, and continue showing your ignorance and foolishness.

      May God help you.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      ...cont.

      @Gary,

      I had promised to give you a more specific example to show that wage earners in the US report 'Gross Income' on their tax returns.

      Now, your initial claim that 'In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income"' is patently false. You can deny all you want if the outline above does not sit well with you, but here is a more specific example:

      Form NJ-1040NR (State of New Jersey Income Tax-Resident Return), on page 1, you have spaces on the form for reporting both 'Total Income' AND 'Gross Income'.

      26. TOTAL INCOME (Add Lines 14 through 25) . . . . . . .

      28. GROSS Income (Subtract Line 27c from Line 26) . . .

      This Form NJ-1040NR is used by earners to report their "GROSS INCOME", so what then do we do with your patently false claim that 'In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income"'?

      Indeed, not only do you assert falsehood and try to come back emphasizing your fallacy, you unwittingly end up deceiving yourself.

      If you do not have knowledge about an issue, why not simply let it go instead of asserting your duplicity in order to mislead gullible folks?

    • profile image

      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Your initial claim was this: 'In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income."'

      I gave the example of Form 1040, and not Form W-2. I never said thatt 'Gross Income' is reported on Form W-2. You only attach Form W-2 to your 'Form 1040' when reporting your tax returns.

      On IRS Form 1040, line 22 says to 'Combine the amounts in the far right column for lines 7 through 21. This is your TOTAL INCOME ?'.

      It is this "total income" that you deny is also understood as "gross income". No problem. Let me ask you to consider the following sources and then tell me what they mean:

      (a) For tax reporting purposes on Form 1040, the IRS 'Instruction for Form 1040 (General Inst.) defines 'Gross Income' as "the total of your unearned and earned income" - and this is reported on the Form 1040.

      (b) The US Department of Housing and Urban Development explains -

      'IRS Form 1040 requires reporting of certain kinds of income, which are then added together to constitute what is referred to as "GROSS INCOME." From the GROSS INCOME, certain deductions are then taken to arrive at an "adjusted gross income." ... Once the GROSS INCOME figure is obtained, applicable deductions are then subtracted to arrive at the household's "adjusted gross income."

      - what is meant by "added together to constitute what is referred to as "GROSS INCOME"?

      - what is meant by "Once the GROSS INCOME figure is obtained"?

      - Is this "GROSS INCOME figure" reported in the Form 1040?

      - Where in the Form 1040 is this "GROSS INCOME figure" reported?

      - If the 'gross income figure' is not reported in the Form 1040, then how does a wage earner determine Adjusted Gross Income?

      Your denial would mean that those in the US Government do not know what they mean until your denial confuses the situation for them all, no?

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      You: "Again, proving what goes on a tax return is not necessarily the gross income."

      Actually, your 'latest retirement paycheck' does not establish your false claim that 'In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income".' That initial claim which you have dubiously tried to defend is patently false, and the example I gave of Form NJ-1040NR shows that 'GROSS INCOME' is reported in tax returns in the US.

      ____

      You: "It helps to have a little knowledge in a subject before arguing with someone."

      Take your advice, dude. You have shown vast ignorance on what you did not know, and your attempt to obfuscate issues with more fallacies is not looking good on your retired CV.

      ____

      You: "Later in the code they list which items of gross income that need not be reported on the tax return. Again, showing that I have been right all along."

      No, but rather shows that you have been dubious and wrong all along!

      You initially claimed that people who say they tithe on their gross income MUST add to their wages "ALL" fringe benefits, including what the employer has paid for their retirement plan, medical plan, etc. etc. I consequently showed the fallacy of that dubious assertion to point out that not 'ALL' benefits are added and there are certain benefits which are EXCLUDED from Gross Income.

      Next, you came up with another fallacy that: 'In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income."' Again, I showed the fallacy of that dubious claim by pointing out the example of the Form 1040. Following your assertive denial once again, I will give you a more specific example to show that wage earners report Gross Income on their tax returns.

      When anti-tithing propagandists make dubious and fallacious claims in public as you do, they are the only ones I know who then praise themselves and further claim they have been 'right all along'. It features in your style repeatedly, and what do you actually gain from such?

    • profile image

      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      You: "Suppose I went to your website and asked you a question as follows. What would your answer be?"

      Please go there and ask the question. I have never been shy to answer your questions, even though it's been nearly a year now that you still have not answered the few simple questions I asked you. I don't want to deal with anti-tithing fictions any further, so if you want to face reality, please ask the question there - and I'll provide you with answers to help you face reality.

      ____

      You: "Since tithing has NOTHING to do with taxes, why are YOU trying to use the tax laws to determine your gross income for tithing purposes?"

      I did not use the tax laws to determine gross income for tithing purposes. I rather responded to your dubious claim that 'In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income".' Your false claim about tax returns was what I had responded to, so you cannot claim your duplicity into my comments anywhere.

      ____

      You: "WHY do you relate tithing to a church with taxes?"

      I do not relate tithing with taxes, and you well know me for that. Even when you made this assumption in the 'givingtithes' blog, I debunked your arguments on the same issue and noted: "I did not confuse between TAX and TITHE. For you to have returned with the same confusion would not be helpful either to your American farmers if you want to keep up that non-existent argument." (January 14, 2011). I then left you some questions, which you never attempted to answer - nearly a year since then.

    • profile image

      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      @Tymon,

      Suppose I went to your website and asked you a question as follows. What would your answer be?

      I live in the US and my wages for 2011 was $50,000. During the year I had $40,000 in capital losses. I want to voluntarily tithe on my gross income to the church. How much should I tithe?

    • profile image

      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      TITLE 26 INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

      Subtitle A CHAPTER 1 Subchapter B PART I Section 61

      Section 61. Gross income defined

      (a) General definition

      Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items:

      (1) Compensation for services, including fees, commissions, fringe benefits, and similar items;

      Notice the US federal code defines gross income to INCLUDE fringe benefits. It also includes:

      (12) Income from discharge of indebtedness;

      In other words, if you still owe $100,000 on your personal residence and the bank repossess the house, your gross income includes the discharged indebtedness.

      Later in the code they list which items of gross income that need not be reported on the tax return. Again, showing that I have been right all along.

    • profile image

      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      I'm looking at my latest retirement paycheck stub:

      The statement itemizes my retirement income into three categories, labeled as ITEMIZED GROSS. One of the categories, which amounts to approximately 6.6% of my total GROSS pension, does NOT show up on my tax return anywhere.

      My government pension INCLUDES this non-taxable amount in the TOTAL GROSS figure. But when I get my Form 1099 at the end of the year that shows the amount of pension I am to report on my tax return, the non-taxable amount is NOT included in the total. In my case, my pension plan actually tells me the GROSS amount but reports a different amount to the IRS.

      Again, proving what goes on a tax return is not necessarily the gross income.

      It helps to have a little knowledge in a subject before arguing with someone.

    • profile image

      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      You said, "On page 1 of Form 1040, you will find the "total income" - and that is known as your "gross income", sir."

      No it does not.

      When you look at a Form W-2, you see:

      Block 1 - Wages, tips, other compensation

      Block 3 - Social Security Wages

      Block 5 - Medicare wages and tips

      On my previous Forms W-2, blocks 3 and 5 are thousands of dollars larger than block 1, but it is block 1 that I report on the tax return as wages. That is exactly why the Form 1040 says TOTAL income rather than Gross Income.

      From Total Income you subtract items to arrive at Adjusted Gross Income. But you NEVER start with Gross Income.

      IRS Publication 17 uses the term gross income for several different tax-reporting requirements. For each one, it gives the definition of gross income that is being used FOR THE PARTICULAR REQUIREMENT.

      Since the IRS code specifically excepts certains kinds of gross income as being taxable, that in itself shows that all gross income is not included on a tax return.

      Since tithing has NOTHING to do with taxes, why are YOU trying to use the tax laws to determine your gross income for tithing purposes?

      Have you no common sense at all? WHY would you use the government tax code to determine your gross income for tithing purposes? Since tax laws often change, does that mean that your gross income for tithing purposes should also change?

      The more you comment, the more ignorance you show.

      You said, "Well, well! If you knew that some of the gross income may not be subject to income tax laws, WHY then did you earlier intone that income earners 'must add to their wages ALL fringe benefits' when you knew that claim has no substance in REALITY?"

      Again, showing your stupidity. Again, YOU want to use the government tax codes to come up with your gross income instead of the actual amount. My claim has both substance and is reality. The US Congress right now is debating adding some of these gross income exclusion back into taxable income. The tax laws change. Are tithers supposed to change how they figure their tithe every time the tax code changes?

      All you are doing is proving my point. Tithing today makes no sense. There is no "standard" to apply. Why would the "gross income" of someone in the US be different than the "gross income" of someone in another country if their true gross income is the same, but the tax laws in the different countries are different? WHY do you relate tithing to a church with taxes?

      Keep digging your hole, Tymon. The more you continue, the more foolish you look.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      God bless you, too. But why are you sweating it?

      I never once confused between tithes and taxes - and you know me very well on such things. If you want to treat tithes like tax on incomes, please yourself - but asking me what they have to do with each other is a fool's errand on your part, since you can't drag me into that hubris of yours.

      Now, you claimed that, 'In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income."'

      Really? So, what about 'Form 1040' - "U.S. Individual Income Tax Return"? Are you asserting that there's nowhere on Form 1040 where US wage earners report any form of 'gross income'?

      On page 1 of Form 1040, you will find the "total income" - and that is known as your "gross income", sir.

      If that simple fact is 'difficult, if not impossible' for you to understand, then here is a quote from the US Department of Housing and Urban Development (emphasis mine):

      'IRS Form 1040 requires reporting of certain kinds of income, which are then added together to constitute what is referred to as "GROSS INCOME." From the gross income figure, certain deductions are then taken to arrive at an "adjusted gross income."

      Get it now?

      When applicable deductions are made on the "total income" (the same as "gross income"), the result is called 'Adjusted Gross Income' (AGI) - also on page 1 of Form 1040. The AGI is the figure you write at the bottom of page 1 of that Form, and then copy again to the top of page 2.

      Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) is income from taxable sources (gross income) less tax deductions that are allowable whether or not you itemize deductions on your tax return. In other words, AGI is actually your "gross income minus applicable deductions". Therefore, you cannot accurately compute your AGI if you have not first found the figure for your "gross income" (which is the same as your "total income") on your Form 1040.

      Any more lies from you, Gary?

      ____

      As to your other claim: "There is no line to report such because some of the gross income may not be subject to the income tax laws."

      Well, well! If you knew that some of the gross income may not be subject to income tax laws, WHY then did you earlier intone that income earners 'must add to their wages ALL fringe benefits' when you knew that claim has no substance in REALITY? Just why do you keep recycling obvious fallacies like that?

      One would just imagine the series of shamefully misleading assertions you make in public to say so much about your 'honesty and knowledge'. Don't sweat it, Gary.

    • profile image

      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      Tymon,

      You just don't seem to have much knowledge when it comes to these issues.

      What does "taxable income" have to do with "tithable income?" In the US, nowhere on a tax return does a wage earner report his "gross income." There is no line to report such because some of the gross income may not be subject to the income tax laws. But the pastor, in his great ignorance, uses the term gross income.

      It's a waste of time debating with someone who just doesn't have the education and/or knowledge to understand what is being said.

      May God Bless you.

    • profile image

      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Your quote: "And there is NOTHING wrong with that statement. It is correct."

      Excuse me? If that is 'correct', how come you accused me earlier of having misquoted you and never showed the misquotes? How do you accuse someone of "misquoting" you when that was not the case? Your inclination to be fraudulent never ceases to amaze me. Yet, for all that, how did you deal with the issue I highlighted in her comments?

      ____

      Your quote: "I no longer attend ANY church services because of the corruption."

      Oh, very convenient ... nice. You hypocrite no longer attend ANY church services, and yet you have the nerve to tell other Christians what should be done in their church lives and commitments, not so?

      There! I've long suspected something is strangely in the air about anti-tithing propagandists like you, but it was only a matter of time before you confessed how real your 'christianity' was.

      ____

      Your quote: "It is because of my honesty and knowledge that I have so many give me compliments on my teaching."

      If compliments are all you're seeking, say so. I guess you've quickly forgotten the warning Jesus gave in Luke 6:26 about self-praising false prophets?

      How many would compliment your asseveration about adding 'ALL' fringe benefits to gross income, when we know that is simply a dubious idea that does not bear REALITY? How many would compliment your lies about the 'D.D.' which you blame on your dishonest pastor? How many have yet complimented you on the myth of your anti-tithing propaganda of falsely teaching that NT giving is 'difficult, if not impossible'? And all these fallacies are what you attribute to 'honesty and knowledge'? I can't laugh, please.

      A 'compliment' seeker who pretends to be holding 'church' while no longer attending ANY church services is not worth the salt of an informed and honest Christian.

    • profile image

      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      "if ALL THAT YOU HAVE AFTER NECESSITIES ARE PAID is 3% or 5% OF YOUR EARNINGS, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have."

      And there is NOTHING wrong with that statement. It is correct.

      Did you even read what I said you misquoted? Apparently not because you just quoted something that I AGREED that Janet wrote.

      Tymon said, "By implication, you have never attended ANY church that is not corrupt, and all churches that you had attended up until then were corrupt - including yours!"

      I no longer attend ANY church services because of the corruption. When I find a decent church that isn't corrupt, I might start attending church services again. In the mean time, I have "church" by meeting with friends where we discuss the scriptures and fellowship. No need to attend a corporate business run organization that calls itself a church.

      It is because of my honesty and knowledge that I have so many give me compliments on my teaching.

    • profile image

      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Now, this quote from you earlier is another magical lie, sir:

      "If someone says they tithe on their gross income, and they are correct in their math, then they have given a tenth of their wages (and all other income), before any deductions, PLUS they must add to their wages all fringe benefits, including what the employer has paid for their retirement plan, medical plan, etc. etc."

      Let's unravel the mysterious fables in your assertion above.

      The argument you make that "they must add ALL fringe benefits" etc., etc., when considering deductions from gross income is simply another anti-tithing manufactured propaganda and duplicity - it is simply not true, even in the US.

      Add "ALL" fringe benefits? "ALL"?? You call yourself an accountant and you have NEVER heard of 'non-taxable fringe benefits' in the US? If indeed there are benefits which are non-taxable or excluded from gross income, how then are you asserting that "they MUST add ALL fringe benefits"? What sort of manufactured lie are you involved in today?

      While an employee's gross income would include certain benefits, the IRS designates a number of fringe benefits which are not taxable as gross income if they are benefits available to all employees of a company. A few of the fringe benefits excluded from taxable gross income are:

      (a) benefits which are of no additional cost to employer services

      (b) qualified employee discounts

      (c) working condition fringes

      (d) de minimus fringe

      (e) qualified transportation fringe

      (f) qualified moving expense reimbursement

      Further, for tax years beginning on or after January 1, 2005, gross income of an employee DOES NOT include amounts paid by an employer for educational assistance on behalf of an employee up to a maximum of $5,250 per calendar year!

      Gross income does not include compensation for Active Service in a Combat Zone.

      Also, according to the Legal Information Institute's §106 ('Contributions by employer to accident and health plans'), the general rule is -

      "Except as otherwise provided in this section, gross income of an employee DOES NOT include employer-provided coverage under an accident or HEALTH PLAN."

      Many other fringe benefits are not included in gross income - in the USA!!

      In view of all these, HOW is it that anti-tithing propagandists like you are claiming that "they must add ALL fringe benefits" in gross income considered under tax deductions?

      How far will your anti-tithing lies carry you, Gary? Why are you hell-bent to deceive yourself and those who gullibly fall for your dubious claims?

    • profile image

      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      I did not misquote either you or Janet. The quote I drew from Janet was as precisely as she stated in her comment (except my emphasis in capitals). Here again:

      "if ALL THAT YOU HAVE AFTER NECESSITIES ARE PAID is 3% or 5% OF YOUR EARNINGS, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have."

      The only thing I did there was highlight in capitals what I was questioning - and that has been the issue. So, unless you are mentally challenged that you can no longer understand simple comprehension - or you just want to keep lying - I can see no basis for your allegation that I misquoted either you or Janet.

      And no one should be bothered about your leaving any church - at least, you acknowledge that your pastor was dishonest ("his dishonesty", you said). Afterall, there is no church that you have ever attended that is not corrupt - and here is your quote on that:

      "The organized church has become nothing but a corrupt business. I don't mean to say that every local church is corrupt, BUT I YET TO ATTEND ONE THAT ISN'T" (your quote from 19 months ago).

      By implication, you have never attended ANY church that is not corrupt, and all churches that you had attended up until then were corrupt - including yours!

      So leaving one more church where your pastor was dishonest does not present you as better if you could brazenly follow his lies when you knew better about your D.D. His teaching tithing is not your problem - your inclination to follow and use a lie personally has been your problem, even if that advice to lie might have come from an anti-tither.

      It is because of your predilection to dishonesty that you get this exposure to uncover your fraud. Lie some more.

    • profile image

      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Your quote: "Giving a tenth is absolutely NO problem for me. Giving 20% of my income is NO problem for me. But for many that I know, giving 1% is a BIG problem for them since they can't make it even if they give NOTHING."

      Yes, the many who have a BIG problem giving 1% fall into your anti-tithing myth os "sacrificial giving". Did you not preach that NT giving was "DIFFICULT, if not impossible"? Now what do you expect from such folks before grumbling about their 1% and claiming yours at 20%?

      When will your anti-tithing propaganda take a rest for plain honesty? What do you gain from all these fraud you're peddling in public?

    • profile image

      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      Tymon said, "HOW is someone's net income either 3% or 5% of their gross income in REALITY??"

      No one on here ever said it did. That all came from you misquoting Janet or me. Neither of us ever said that.

      I left the church where the pastor advised me to use my DD degree. I should have known better. He also taught tithing. That should have clued me in to his dishonesty, but I had just started researching the topic.

      You again misquote that anyone of us ever said giving 1 out of ten is a hugh problem for anti-tithers. I never said it. Janet never said it. You keep bringing up things we never said.

      Giving a tenth is absolutely NO problem for me. Giving 20% of my income is NO problem for me. But for many that I know, giving 1% is a BIG problem for them since they can't make it even if they give NOTHING. Do you believe that those who have to get help from a friend or family member to make it through the month should be giving a tenth of their little income? Is it right for someone to give to the church and then need to ask a friend or family member for help with their expenses? The unemployment rate is very high here in the US, and I know those who are going to college to better themselves while working part-time to try and survive. Would you recommend they be giving to the church, OR would you recommend the church give to them?

      I don't believe God is happy with how the churches are being run today. Most take much and give little.

      I honestly believe that a large percentage of pastors are committing fraud. They are running a scam.

      Jeremiah 12:10 (KJV) Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

      Jeremiah 22:22 (KJV) The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Yes, it is nice to know that there are some honest pastors - but your pastor is not one of them! If your pastor could encourage you to lie about your 'Doctor of Divinity' claimed as part of your EDUCATION, and you followed his "advice", we can be sure how dishonest are the 'pastors' you've been hanging out with!

      And for the record, do you mind ending your tomfoolery about my gender? My usernames across blogs and forums do not suggest female ('she') - not even in the US as the clever lie you continue to deceive yourself with all along. I've always been male, and now you can keep your transgender fallacy to your enclave, thanks. :)

      Now, after your hypentensions between net and gross incomes, you didn't show anything of substance to counter what I highlighted earlier about your mathematical gymnastics to foster your anti-tithing propaganda. HOW is someone's net income either 3% or 5% of their gross income in REALITY?? Why is that simple question forever enigmatic to you and your lot? Just HOW?!?

      When you can get off your illusion and face reality for once, then and only then will you see the myth of anti-tithing 'sacrifical giving'. If giving '1 out of 10' (or a tenth) is a huge problem for anti-tithers, you will only be deceiving yourself in claiming to be a better giver beyond that - whether from net or gross income.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      Many pastors make up their own definition of tithing. I have been in churches where the pastors says you tithe on your gross income PLUS all gifts and inheritances. And the teach it as though it is Biblical.

      First, in the Old Testament, the inheritance was NOT tithed. The Israelites inheritance was the promised land with everything on it. They tithed ONLY on what God increased on that inherited land - crops and animals. They did NOT give back to God a tenth of the land they inherited.

      Are pastors who teach that the scriptures say you tithe on all your income including gifts and inheritances really that ignorant, OR are they just plain dishonest?

      Are pastors who teach voluntary tithing but throw in Malachi 3 as part of that teaching really that ignorant, OR are they just plain dishonest?

      It is nice to know that they are some honest pastors who don't twist, add to, or subtract from God's Word.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      Tymon has made up his/her own definitions of "Gross Income" and "Net Income."

      Tymon said, "Janet had commented that "if ALL THAT YOU HAVE AFTER NECESSITIES ARE PAID is 3% or 5% OF YOUR EARNINGS, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have."

      Janet's math is correct.

      That is why I have said over and over again that if you don't define WHAT is being tithed, tithing is meaningless. One pastor says to tithe on your gross income. Another says net income. In most cases neither pastor even knows the correct definition of gross income or net income.

      Since Tymon insists that tithe mearly means a tenth, then why is Tymon debating whether gross, net, etc.? If I have $100 left after paying my bills, I can give a tenth of the $100 and say, I tithed on that $100, OR, since Tymon doesn't define tithe past being a tenth, I can say I tithed, period, without specifying what I tithed on.

      If someone says they tithe on their gross income, and they are correct in their math, then they have given a tenth of their wages (and all other income), before any deductions, PLUS they must add to their wages all fringe benefits, including what the employer has paid for their retirement plan, medical plan, etc. etc. I know of no one who adds back in their fringe benefits. Therefore, they LIE when they say they tithe their gross income.

      That is why "tithing" means NOTHING today. In the Old Testament, God SPECIFIED what to tithe. God didn't leave it up to the farmers to decide how much to tithe, he spelled it out. He spelled it out for the herdsmen.

      Since Tymon leaves it up to each individual to decide what to tithe, then Tymon needs to stop judging how others decide to tithe.

      But Tymon is limited in his/her understanding of what has been said on this blog.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      No one needs to blame their bankruptcy or debts on how they give. If giving '1 out of 10' (or a tenth) will bring you to the point of brankruptcy, then you cannot convince anyone in your analysis that you're a better giver beyond that level - which is one reason why anti-tithing 'sacrificial giving' is a myth.

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      femtey 5 years ago

      I want to say thank you to Gary Arnold for all his analysis and comments about tithing. I have always been wary about how Pastors in the christian churches of today emphase on tithing by quoting that infamous verses in malachai. My wife has always been a "tither" for the past 15 years. In other words she has now nearly tithed herself into bankruptcy while the church pastors are laughing all the way to the banks.

      I wish to say you must continue the good works and the scriptures quoted are really an eye opener.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      My maths skills are not based on your anti-tithing fables or fantasies, thanks. We know anti-tithers champion duplicity, that is why you try to continue deceiving yourself with that mathematical gymnastics through your propaganda.

      Janet had commented that "if ALL THAT YOU HAVE AFTER NECESSITIES ARE PAID is 3% or 5% OF YOUR EARNINGS, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have."

      She earlier complained that I could not see"how 3% or 5% of someone's earnings could be deemed 100% OF WHAT SOMEONE HAS LEFT to give" - and she's right, for I could not see how that could be in REALITY, other than the fairy tales that have featured in your arguments.

      From her comments as above, what she was essentially arguing by what someone has left "after necessities are paid" is simply the 'net income' - that is, what is left of someone's earnings after tax and other deductions.

      Now, my questioning that assumption is simply for her - and YOU - to show us HOW someone's net income is either 3% or 5% of their gross income in REALITY. That is what I have consistently challenged, and all you guys have done is prevaricate on the reality of such an argument in order to preach your anti-tithing fiction.

      We know that no anti-tither gives their net income to any church on a regular basis. NONE! We also know that nobody can claim in REALITY that their net income is a mere 3% or 5% of their gross income. And we know that no anti-tither can lie to anybody that they give 100% of their gross or net earnings to anybody. So from where are you guys getting your mathematical gymnastics to foster your anti-tithing propaganda?!?

      If all you ever do is make arguments for your anti-tithing myth rather than face REALITY, should we wonder why the results of the polls in this hub remains a problem to you and your lot?

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      We've known for some time now that Tymon is extremely weak in math.

      5% of 0 equals 100% of 0.

      5% of a dollar represents 100% of a nickel.

      5% of a persons gross income might represent 100% of their giving to a church.

      There are so many, many times that 3% or 5% might represent 100%.

      Simple grade-school math.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Your quote: "I can explain and explain and explain. But some will never understand. Some just never get the point."

      Explain? Nope, you rather can lie, lie and lie - that is why we will never "understand" how you could then dress up to preach 'truth' to ANYBODY.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Janet,

      One thing I have come to detest in anti-tithing propaganda is their penchant to shamelessly lie and make false accusations that they cannot prove.

      When I started discussing this subject with anti-tithers, it didn't take long to notice that all they do is make assertions which they cannot sustain - nor will they answer simple questions when their hermeneutics is closely examined. If that is all there is to the sort of jerrymandering one reads in anti-tithing propaganda, what susbtance is there to your allegation that I argue just for the sake of it?

      So now, after all your pretentions to dialogue, you finally reveal afterall you have had nothing worth reading to present. I only wondered how you could magically turn 3% or 5% to represent 100%. All you did was slobber and then explain nothing - and that says so much for your superior knowledge?

      Thanks - but even a child knows that anyone passing off that kind of 'mathematics' is simply trying to hoodwink the unsuspecting. Try another hat-trick, and praise yourself on top ot it, if you may ... but 3% or 5% does NOT represent 100% - not in heaven, not on earth, and definitely not under the earth. That is the sort of undehanded duplicity that anti-tithers champion and end up proving absolutely nothing.

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      @ Gary

      I'm sure she must have been a very nice person, but, no, it wasn't me!

      I haven't visited the US in over 10 years, but hubbie and I and some other pastor friends have been talking about planning a visit in the next year or two.

      Who knows, maybe we might bump into each other and chat about the good old days! :)

      Janet

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      @Janet,

      Hope to see you around the blogs again someday. It's been a pleasure meeting you on this blog. A few years ago I was a member of a church in Fresno, California USA where one of the ministers was a Janet Chandler.

      May God Bless you always, Janet.

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      @ Tymon

      I saw some time ago that your only bent is to argue, for argument's sake. I also see increasingly, that your manner is very unbecoming of a Christian. There is a way to conduct yourself in a debate and your way is seriously out of order. I do strongly advise that you take a good look at yourself in the mirror, as online you do not come across as an honourable person at all.

      Forget all your talk of 'ad hominem' attacks, fallacious arguments, excuses, piffle, grumbling, whinging etc. etc. etc. - heard it all before and I think your finger is pointing the wrong way. It is you, O Tymon, that fits the bill of all the above.

      The fruit of your lips (pen) is very bitter indeed; I can only conclude that you have a serious problem.

      So, this is now my FINAL rejoinder, because you are not the kind of person worth debating with; you have shown that you are a divisive person, speaking evil of people unnecessarily and that debating with you is unprofitable and useless - Titus 3:9-11 most certainly applies to you.

      So, I can see that maths is clearly NOT your strong point. You cannot see how 3% or 5% of someone's earnings could be deemed 100% of what someone has left to give?

      I think even a child could understand that giving ALL of something means giving 100%. And if all that you have after necessities are paid is 3% or 5% of your earnings, then so be it, that is all that you have and giving it equals giving 100% of what you have.

      May God in His mercy, grant you wisdom and may you endeavour to develop the fruit of His Spirit.

      Goodbye Tymon/Gwaine

      @ Gary

      God bless you richly. Thank you for all your posts and helpful insight. Watch the company you keep!! May His joy be your strength.

      Janet

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      I can explain and explain and explain. But some will never understand. Some just never get the point.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary:

      Your quote: "While I say NO ONE can tithe today, those who take Tymon's position should be telling me that I AM a tither whether I know it or not since I give beyond a tenth of my income on a consistent basis."

      Lol. Just shut up rather than keep exposing your folly! Are you not the same troll who argues against any semblance of tithing in the Church? If you argue that NO ONE can tithe today, why is it up to us to be "telling" you that you are a tither? Have you become so intoxicated with your inane propaganda that you do not know where you belong and now have to wait for us to tell you?

      You do not need anyone "telling" you anything, nor do tithers need you to tell them anything. When anti-tithing prapagandists and trolls who have lost all sense of their bearing, they begin to beg for others to put a nice little tag on them! Please pack yourself to your cubicle - that piffle in your quote is the cheapest thing I read on the net!

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Your question: "Did I say anywhere that I know of no churches that teach voluntary tithing?"

      Are you implying by that question that you indeed know there are churches that teach voluntary tithing? If yes, why is it that you geered all your energies into singing the fallacious song of anti-tithers as if only compulsory/legalistic tithes have been taught in all the churches you know?

      What you do say is as important as what you failed to clearly say. If, for example, you state as you did 19 months ago that "The organized church has become nothing but a corrupt business. I don't mean to say that every local church is corrupt, BUT I YET TO ATTEND ONE THAT ISN'T", by implication you will be saying that you have never attented ANY church that is not corrupt - including yours! If your own local church is part of the churches you have attended, surely no one would arrest me for concluding that even your own church is as corrupt as all the churches you attended!

      As the saying goes: say what you mean and mean what you say - and where you do not make yourself clear enough, you can't blame anyone who reads what you say if you aimed to be meaningless!

      Barely 14 months ago, you publicly stated on this hub that: "EVERY church I have attended teaches the LEGALISTIC tithe" - and I cannot find any reference in your comments where you have appreciated churches that teach that tithing is voluntary.

      Now, if you knew of churches where tithing is taught BUT NOT 'LEGALISTIC', why is it that such churches are NEVER APPRECIATED in your arguments? That is why I asked if you were trying to assert that no church existed that ever taught tithes as voluntary - but you and all other anti-tither propagandists I have known have only been hooting about your fallacious mantra and see nothing beyond that!

      Just 7 weeks ago, I re-iterated that "If a Christian desires to express his/her giving through VOLUNTARY tithing, what anathema is in that?" The fact that people have known tithing to be voluntary is not coming from just me alone. I have long observed that many Christians express their tithing on voluntary basis, as the following examples reveal -

      (a) 2 years ago, Maraiya Storm commented that tithing "is VOLUNTARY, and it has to come from the heart."

      (b) 17 months ago, you quoted some dictionaries (e.g., The American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition - 1994) that define the word 'tithe' in various ways, including that it is a tenth part of one's annual income contributed VOLUNTARILY.

      (c) Other reknowned sources such as Wikipedia note that 'TODAY, tithes (or tithing) are NORMALLY VOLUNTARY" - which should make anti-tithers wonder how they have never known such a fact even where it is widely recognized!

      So, for anti-tithers to have ignored all these and continued to preach their mantra of 'compulsory' or 'legalistic' tithing as if that is the only experience Christians know about tithing is both fallacious, dubious and insincere on the part of anti-tithers like you.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      Janet,

      Please don't sweat it. Your rejoinders are hunkering on the same tired, old repetitive exercises as you have argued before and again, and it would be unnecessary for me to outline my answers in like manner to repeat myself.

      The so-called 'system' which you see in the NT is already taught in the OLD Testament. That does not make Christians to become Jews under Judaism; but it reinforces the fact that NT principles of giving are based precisely on what the OT teaches. I do not find anything "new" in the so-called 'NT principles' that many anti-tithers argue for - unless they are affirming they are wholly ignorant of what has been taught in the OT.

      At no time have I ever argued against Christians giving as they purposed in their hearts - unless, again, you simply never read my previous comments before claiming to have done so. In very fact, it is because i have consistently maintained that giving should be of one's volition that Gary fallaciously tried to take issues with me on that! He had a huge problem with my position on leaving believers the choice to determine for themselves, while he is not prepared to let others also choose to tithe.

      But then, the magical gymnastics often featuring in anti-tithing hubris also shows up in your comments, Janet. How does "3% or 5%" represent '100% of what they have in their hands'? Just how? How do you magically transform 3% or 5% to be representing 100%, and yet we read anti-tithers who grumble about someone tithing anything else if it is not exactly 10%? That '3% or 5%' representing 100% is at best a trivial joke.

      I think for the most part, the fallacious manner in which anti-tithing arguments are couched is the reason why they can fool nobody but themselves. If 1 out of 10 is "DIFFICULT" (if not impossible) for the anti-tither, please tell me how they can convince anyone that they give BEYOND what is difficult for them! It is this shameless underhanded manner of mental gymnastics that makes the anti-tithng agenda the fallacious propaganda that it has been all along.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      Let me clarify my statement:

      Did I say anywhere that I know of no churches that teach voluntary tithing?

      Here is one of my problems. I have attended churches where tithing "is voluntary," because, as the pastor puts it, no one is going to take the tenth from you if you don't "voluntarily" give it. BUT, those pastors also threaten the Malachi curse if you don't "voluntarily" give the tenth, and they also use Malachi to say you are robbing God if you don't "voluntarily" give the tenth. In my opinion, that is NOT teaching voluntary tithing.

      Of course I know of pastors who actually teach that tithing ended at the cross, but teach we should or can voluntarily tithe today. In my opinion, these pastors don't understand the Biblical tithe.

      While I say NO ONE can tithe today, those who take Tymon's position should be telling me that I AM a tither whether I know it or not since I give beyond a tenth of my income on a consistent basis.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      I said, "I have NEVER attended any church where tithing was taught as voluntary UNTIL after I had met with the pastor and challenged his teaching."

      I get quoted as saying, "When folks like you claim you know of no tithing church that teaches a voluntary tight, we know you're only pretending to have done your home work when it's obvious you simply just don't want to face the reality that rubbishes your fallacy."

      Did I say anywhere that there are no churches that teach voluntary tithing?

      Some, in particular ONE on this blog likes to put words in my mouth. He/she likes to twist what I say, change what I say, add to and/or subtract from what I say. WOW! Just like some pastors I know!

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      Scripture 7) Gal 2:21:

      ‘I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.’

      ? There is no law that can make us righteous – and tithing is taught (for the most part) as a Christian law , as if we are bound to tithe to be blessed financially by God. Tithing as a law is contrary to grace.

      ? A good pastor friend of mine, whom I love dearly, when challenged (by me) about the necessity for Christians to tithe said that he had two pillars in his Christian faith THAT HE WAS PROUD OF: one was tithing, the other was not drinking alcohol - he had lived by those two standards all his Christian life as this was how he had been taught. He was not willing to consider that tithing was not a Christian requirement as he would feel as if his pillars had been removed and that he was not so far different from the unsaved.

      Again, as I said, this is a summary of my thoughts, without going into exegical detail, but I hope those, especially those who have always been taught that tithing is compulsory, will read this, pray and ask God to reveal His truth to their hearts.

      God bless the saints of His church.

      Janet

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      I would like to set out the following by way of a comprehensive summary of my view of tithing and Christian giving.

      I hope this might be helpful to some, and don't care if some view it as rehashed - it is not personally directed toward them.

      I set this out really for consideration by those who have been taught that tithing is compulsory for faithful Christians.

      From what I can see, there are three different positions on tithing for Christian believers (the second I only 'discovered' on reading this blog:

      1. Tithing is Compulsory – there are blessings for obedience to tithe

      - there are curses for disobedience in not tithing

      2. Tithing is voluntary - there are blessings if you give 10% of (income?)

      - It is neutral if you don’t

      3. It is not valid to be called ‘Tithing’ - tithing is OT Law and it is not applicable for NT

      believers to give ‘biblical tithes’.

      My position is the third one because:

      a) there is no doctrinal teaching on tithing in the NT,

      b) there is no evidence of NT saints tithing as a precedent for our practice,

      c) The Canon of Scripture closed in the 4th Century and so I don’t believe we are at liberty to teach as doctrine things which the Apostolic Fathers did not, though all Scripture is useful for (understanding) doctrine, giving correction and chastisement,

      d) tithing under the Law was a specific part of the Levitical system of giving/atonement for sins; no other elements of said sacrificial system of giving has been adopted in the same manner, in a literal application into Christian practice (albeit substituting money instead of food).

      Below is a brief look at the ‘system’ of giving which I see in the NT and which I think Christians should be taught to follow. I have added some interpretation in brackets and beneath the scripture references:

      Scripture 1) 2 Cor 8:12:

      ‘For if there is a first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.’

      ? As long as you are moved to want to give, whatever you can give is acceptable. You can’t give more than you have.

      Scripture 2) 2 Cor 8:13-15:

      ‘For I (Paul) do not mean that others (other churches) should be eased and you burdened (the Corinthian church); but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack (the Judean Saints), that their abundance also may supply your lack – that there be an equality. As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.” ’

      ? Paul, here, is teaching about giving to meet the needs of others, knowing that there may come a time when you need help to meet your needs, too.

      ? In this case it was whole churches fundraising to help another church, but the teaching also teaches us that:

      o we should always be willing to help each other,

      o the better off should help the needy,

      o there may come a time when roles are reversed.

      o God’s divine provision (see manna from heaven, Ex. 16:18) is so that each individual should have enough for their household to eat (to live on) without one having more than enough and another less than enough.

      Scripture 3) 2 Cor 9:5:

      ‘Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as grudging obligation.’

      ? This scriptures, again, was about supporting the impoverished Judean Saints in their time of need.

      ? The point here is that the support of others should be from the heart, in willing response to their needs, put together with forethought and diligence, not haphazard, a last-minute afterthought, forced or coerced.

      Scripture 4) 2 Cor 9:6:

      ‘…he who sows sparingly, will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully, will also reap bountifully.’

      ? No further explanation need, really, except to say, if you CAN give more than you do, your reward will be less than you might hope for. If you give generously, your reward will be greater.

      Scripture 5) 2 Cor 9:7-9:

      ‘So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly, or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. As it is written: “He has dispersed abroad, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.” ’

      ? Whoever wants to give in support of needs, should do so to satisfy their own desire to give and be a blessing – God loves that motivation. Giving to others outside your own comfort zone, giving to the poor wherever they are, counts as righteousness. And God will make His grace abound toward you so that you will have enough (spiritually and materially), and then more than enough (an abundance)to continue to support good works (please read 1 Tim 6:6-10 ...Godliness with contentment is great gain - we should not desire to be rich as those who do fall into temptation and a snare).

      Scripture 6) Mark 12:41-44:

      ‘Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.”

      ? Jesus is looking, not at the amount, but at the level of sacrifice you make to support the work in the kingdom of God. Making comparisons about who gives more or who gives less is not necessary or helpful for us to judge – but the Lord will judge the heart attitudes of all givers. The inference in modern days that the one who gives 10% of earnings or more is somehow better than the one who does not, is not supported by scripture – giving is judged (by God) according to means and the attitude of one’s heart- willing or grudging.

      ? If giving 10% of earnings is too much for some Christians at some stages of their lives, so what? If one (as Tymon /Gwaine says s/he does) believes that giving is voluntary and according to means, then all believers will be blessed for whatever they give sacrificially, cheerfully and as they purpose in their hearts. God loves a cheerful giver and doesn’t set a price-tag on His blessings.

      ? So what if a believer can only give 3% or 5% or whatever percentage of earnings on a regular basis? To that individual it may represent 100% of what they have in their hands – all that is left after essential bills are paid. Is 100% not good enough? The widows two mites was all she had. No doubt, for some, giving even £2 or £20 or £200 is all that they have. For others – it is a drop in the ocean even to give 10% - they could give oh so much more but they are stingy and choose not to. Scripture does not set a percentage of earnings as a standard. God blesses our freewill and sacrificial offerings The percentage given, according to scripture, is not the point at all, the point is how much it represents a sacrifice to you to give it, and the motivation you have to give it.

      ? Those who have an abundance, beyond their immediate needs and a level of comfort, should willingly give of that abundance, (as they purpose in their own hearts) to help supply where others have lack. No one can give more than they have without falling into debt. I can give ALL that I have, do without material comforts and pleasures, and God sees that. The poor amongst us, yes, even in the West, should be supported by our churches – whether these poor are within or outside our walls. Is this the pattern we see in our churches? Does this happen enough, (concerning the poor amongst us) if at all, within some churches?

      Scripture 7) Gal 2:21:

      ‘I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.’

      ? There is no law that can make us righteous – and tithing is taught

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Your latest rejoinder is simply another excuse that does not add up at all. It is only typical for anti-tithers like you to prevaricate and arrive at fallacious conclusions; but what really are you trying to assert? That no tithing church exists that ever teaches tithing as voluntary? Is that what you're vainly trying to argue for?

      Nobody reading this hub is confused about what is presented. The article is clear about what tithing means to the author - "give ten percent of their income" - and it was based on that idea that people responded to the question: "How Often Do You Tithe?" It is obvious from the answer of 72% respondents that they tight from their income, unles you're the only person who does not understand the meaning of "Every Paycheck". Others who responded also understood what the article says; so what is the substance of your ignorant piffling?

      Then, as is usual, you try to excuse the reality of the results of the polls by telling your fallacious tall tales. Yet, how is it that anti-tithers NEVER go to churches where believers tithe voluntarily, responsibly and without duress?? Anti-tithers like you often claim that you have NEVER been to churches where tithing is taught as a voluntary exercise, but does that not show your narrow-minded carping for what it is, really?

      If your anti-tithing legalism allows for a little honesty, you will find that many tithing churches indeed preach tithing as voluntary. The many Assemblies of God churches I have attended are clear that their tithing is voluntary; as is the same case in my experience of many Baptist and Calvary Chapel churches, besides many others whose materials we read and listen to in various media.

      Incidentally, when the anti-tithing brigade at the 'nairaland' forum made a lot of noise with their fallacious claim that no church they know has ever taught tithing as voluntary, what did they say after I pointed out the example of some of the pastors (like Tunde Bakare) in their own domain that actually teach voluntary tighting Nothing of substance above their usual excuses and anti-tithing grumbling!

      When folks like you claim you know of no tithing church that teaches a voluntary tight, we know you're only pretending to have done your home work when it's obvious you simply just don't want to face the reality that rubbishes your fallacy.

      In hindsight, how many anti-tithers have achieved your own brand of 'difficult, if not impossible' type of giving, which you dubiously claimed for the NT? I realise you no longer sing that tune after it was challenged for its emptiness. When anti-tithers go about fooling themselves about what they CANNOT do, it is little wonder that you would do anything to prevaricate on what these issues.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      Just what does being a tither mean?

      Since different people have different definitions as to what tithing even means, one may claim to be a tither while another, under the same circumstances, may claim to be a non-tither. Example: I have dealt with many on several different blogs who say they always tithe, but they don't tithe any particular percentage. I've seen several pastors comment that when they use the word tithe, they merely mean giving without any percentage attached to it. So when a survey asks "How often do you tithe?" you never know how many interpret that as meaning giving a tenth of something. And even then, a tenth of what? Gross, net, adjusted income? The survey wasn't clear enough for many to even understand what was being asked. That is obvious by some of the comments we see. There are blogs all over the internet where church goers claim to tithe their time instead of their income. Many say it doesn't have to be from your income. So to ask the question how often do you tithe, some will answer every paycheck even if they are giving 1%. Then there are those who, for whatever reason, like to say they tithe, but in fact they don't give a tenth of anything to the church on a regular basis.

      I've been in church when the pastor will ask those who tithe to stand. Many stand, but few actually give a tenth of their income. How do I know? Because some of those who have stood up have told me they would have been embarrassed if others thought they didn't tithe.

      Tithing has become a "status symbol" in some churches for those who don't know any better. I've been in churches where all tithers are told to get in a line and the pastor accepts each "gift" personally. After each tither is recognized, then everyone else is told to bring their gifts forward and put it in the basket.

      I have NEVER attended any church where tithing was taught as voluntary UNTIL after I had met with the pastor and challenged his teaching.

      Even a minister at a church I had membership in insisted he was a tither, but when pushed and asked if he tithed on every single paycheck, he said of course not. He had to use his second paycheck each month to pay the rent. In other words, he was really giving 5% a month, not a tenth, and in a class I gave, he claimed that he and his wife for so far in debt he didn't think they could ever get out of debt. Gives 5% but can't pay his bills. That's what a lot of church goers do. Give the money away rather than pay their bills.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @ Janet,

      As to the conclusion you drew in your maths, what actually does reality bear? Individually, anti-tithers give far less and there's no debate about that.

      In a hypothetical case, let's say say the number of respondents (2726 people) are the 'members' of a 'church' (this hub). If 72% give at least 10% of their income, would you draw the same conclusions as that anti-tithers in total give more than those who tithed in this hypothetical example? You can do the same maths and see for yourself.

      I see you complained about using the results from this poll (72% tithers of 2726 respondents) as unrealistic. However, in stack contrast to your hypothetical case, we know that anti-tithers in reality cannot claim to give up to a tenth since they find it "difficult" to do so.

      Indeed, I agree with you that there are lot of variables ('too many unknowns'). But I don't think we should stretch our imagination in order to bend the results of this poll one way or another. If a greater number of people in a poll say they tithe, that is what the results reveal; and if others say they do not tithe, that again bears the reality of the responses at the other end of the pendulum.

      What may be said at the end of day is this: typically, people who tithe will be happy to say so in any tithing poll; while anti-tithers will disavow tithing in anti-tithing polls. Yet, in reality, while tithers are resolved in their commitment to give sacrificially up to a tenth of their income, the typical anti-tither finds it difficult to give at that level (even though he/she claims to give far above a tenth).

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Janet,

      The poll on this hub derives from the article and in no way does it imply tithing under compulsion or duress as anti-tithers often conclude by default.

      Many Christians who choose to tithe do so in the understanding that all they have belong to God, and their giving does not end at just 10% of their income.

      The anti-tithing belief system preached by many anti-tithers is for the most part "difficult, if not impossible" (as they have claimed several times, ala Gary Arnold). And for all that, how many anti-tithers who read or hear such things have been able to achieve such "difficult" idles? How many?

      I'm not the only person who believes in tithing voluntarily; and for the most part, many of the large churches I know that encourage tithing do not preach it the way anti-tithers often fallaciously conclude.

      WHY do we NEVER read of anti-tithers who know of churches that preach voluntary tithing? Why is it that anti-tithers never mention and appreciate those churches that have been consistent in their preaching about tithing on a voluntary basis?

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      contd.

      If you tried to apply the percentages from the hub page poll (72% polled as tithers), into the example of a 100 member church, you do not get a realistic figure.

      If 72% of people tithed, and 28% didn't, then the total received by the church would be £ 11,920, 90% from tithers, and amounting to almost 8% of total earnings.

      As this percentage of giving is more than double what known stats reveal (less than 3% of earnings), this poll does not produce meaningful results in terms of statistical analysis and is not a useful sample for such analysis - too many unknowns.

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      @ Tymon

      Gary's conclusion, from the stats quoted above, that the majority of giving in churches MUST come from non-tithers can be borne out using simple maths.

      From the stats quoted: Christians are giving less than 3% of their earnings to church.

      Lets imagine a church of 100 people all earning £1500 per month.

      Total monthly earnings = 100 x £1500 = £150,000.

      4% tithe (evangelical stat) = 4 x £150 = £600

      96% don't tithe, but give 2.7% of earnings (estimate)= 96 x £40 = £3840

      Total received by the church = £4440, which represents 2.96% of £150,000 earnings.

      The non-tithers have thus contributed 86.5% of the total which the church has received, tithers 13.5%.

      Though earnings were equalised for simplicity, you cannot deny that Gary's conclusion was a sound one.

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      @ Tymon

      With regard to the poll on this hub page, perhaps another poll should be done to see how many of those 2417 people who do tithe do so ‘voluntarily’ and how many tithe fearing that their finances won’t be blessed if they don’t (or indeed, will be cursed if they don’t?)

      If people are taught, as they are for the most part, that tithing is an act of ‘obedience’ and therefore ‘required’ by God – then of course this poll is as one would expect. Christians desire to walk in faithfulness and obedience to Christian doctrines. The tithing doctrine as taught in ’tithing’ churches is usually taught along the lines of the 10% BELONGS to God and we are to honour God and trust God with our finances by giving Him the tenth and He will take care of the 90%.

      Since you believe that tithing should be VOLUNTARY and but one of several different, acceptable forms of ‘voluntary giving’ – don’t you think it is important to ensure that NOONE IS TITHING UNDER A FALSE SENSE OF COMPULSION OR DURESS?

      How do you think people can find out that giving a tenth of their income should be voluntary?

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Your quote: "Since such a small percentage actually give a tenth of their income to the church, non-tithers do more to further the Kingdom of God than so-called tithers. More total money comes from the non-tithers."

      Lol, but Gary you know your conclusion is just another lie. Anti-tithers like you find no place in the Church for any semblance of tithing or the giving of a 'tenth'.

      Many anti-tithers often complain and grumble about how 'DIFFICULT' it is for them to give a tenth of their income! If a tenth (1 out of 10) is DIFFICULT for the anti-tither, then who are they fooling with your claim to give more than tithers do? Even you have claimed that your own recommendation of 'equal sacrifice' is "MUCH HARDER to achieve, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, than giving ten percent" - and yet we don't see the superlatives in how many anti-tithers have achieved what YOU recommended!

      Scroll up to the polls in this hubpage article and see for yourself. To the question "How Often Do You Tithe?", about 2627 people have so far responded that -

      (a) they tithe from "Every Paycheck" (72%)

      (b) "When they can afford to tithe" (13%)

      (c) some tithe "Rarely" (7%)

      Put them together and that comes to about 92% who, at least, say they are tithing. Only about 8% of respondents say they "NEVER tithed" - and what does that say about your fallacious "conclusion", Gary?

      Anti-tithers who find it 'difficult' and grumble about giving a 'tenth' (1 out of 10) can fool nobody but themselves when they claim to give beyond what they find 'difficult'. This is why you often resort to fallacious claims to hide yourself from reality just so you can sleep well at night.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Your quote: 'NO "degree" is a part of anyone's education. The learning involved is the education, not the degree, so it wouldn't matter what university the degree came from.'

      My answer: Why then did you list the 'D.D.' as part of your 'Christian EDUCATION' when in very fact you knew it would be unethical to claim it under a heading of "Education"?

      From the ULC, Modesto site:

      2. "IN NO CASE would I include such information UNDER THE HEADING OF EDUCATION, nor as Specialized Training. It would be more appropriate to list these credentials under the heading of Titles, Awards, or Other Achievements."

      [In direct contravention of that disclaimer, you Gary listed the 'Doctor of Divinity' under the heading of your 'Christian EDUCATION' - you knew that was a bold-faced lie, and that is why you hurried to remove it when challenged].

      From the ULC, Modesto site:

      3. "If an employer suspects that you are attempting to pass off your religious titles as ACADEMIC TRAINING or to qualify for a pay raise, YOU WILL LOSE A LOT OF CREDIBILITY."

      [Since you kept passing off the D.D. to pretend it as your academic training by listing it under the heading of your Christian EDUCATION, your credibility is toast].

      Liars will do everything to desperately clutch at straws in defence of their fraud as you keep doing.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      "An empty tomb, inc. report found that evangelicals give churches about 4 percent of their income (and all Christians only 2.43 percent), far less than the biblical 10 percent tithe."

      In churches I have attended, we are told that less than 5% of the members give a tenth of their income to the church.

      Studies show that a very small percentage of Christians actually give as much as a tenth of their income to the church.

      Conclusion: Since such a small percentage actually give a tenth of their income to the church, non-tithers do more to further the Kingdom of God than so-called tithers. More total money comes from the non-tithers.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      @Tymon,

      NO "degree" is a part of anyone's education. The learning involved is the education, not the degree, so it wouldn't matter what university the degree came from.

      Many are self-educated. The learning from the course I took when getting the DD degree IS a part of my Christian education.

      I am done replying to your nonsense.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Janet,

      Acknowledged, thanks. :)

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      @ Tymon

      Erm...it's 're-hashed' not re-harshed...

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      When you lie (as you have often done), have a heart to bear a tinge of godly conscience to not further your deceit.

      An honorary degree is not part of your Christian EDUCATION - that much we know. Only conceited folks will applaud your fraudulent claim about the D.D. being part of your Christian "EDUCATION".

      If you earned the Doctor of Divinity degree by ACADEMIC achievement, please name the University that awarded you the D.D. in fulfilment of your academic standing. Just name the University - then we know whether or not you understand the meaning of "EDUCATION".

      But we know that you did not earn the acclaimed 'D.D.' from any university, nor did you earn it by academic achievement. Contrary to your perennial lies that the D.D. was part of your "education", the ULC (Universal Life Church, Modesto) that you attributed as the awarding body of your D.D. clearly states the following on their site concerning their degrees (emphasis mine) -

      1. "The degrees convey rank, title, or status within the church. THEY DO NOT CONVEY ACADEMIC STANDING OR ACHIEVEMENT."

      2. "IN NO CASE would I include such information UNDER THE HEADING OF EDUCATION, nor as Specialized Training. It would be more appropriate to list these credentials under the heading of Titles, Awards, or Other Achievements."

      3. "If an employer suspects that you are attempting to pass off your religious titles as ACADEMIC TRAINING or to qualify for a pay raise, YOU WILL LOSE A LOT OF CREDIBILITY."

      Now please think carefully on these -

      (a) If the ULC Modesto clearly says that their degrees DO NOT convey academic standing or achievement, why then have you been lying that the D.D. was part of your EDUCATION?

      (b) Since the ULC clearly states that in no case would the title be included under the heading of "EDUCATION", why have you persistently held on to your fraud of claiming the D.D. as part of your EDUCATION?!?

      (c) Since the ULC states the consequences of attempting to pass off your religious title as ACADEMIC TRAINING, would it not imply huge lose of credibility on your part?

      Why do you keep holding on to your fraudulent claims when it is so obvious that the ULC church that gave you that 'title' clearly says that it does not convey academic standing or achievement and should not be listed under the heading of "EDUCATION"? Your 'pastor' that urged you to make such fraudulent claims - does he have moral scruples at all? Have you lost all shame to the point that you have become a total stranger to honesty?

      How do folks like you dress up to preach 'truth' to ANYBODY when you keep lying without conscience in public, even when your lies are so obvious?

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Janet,

      I should have realized long ago that you struggle with English, and that explains why your rejoinders are simply a reharsh of your repetitive empty piffling.

      Take the last quote you weakly attempted to obfuscate. I asked you to quote me where I ever stated that anti-tithers do not give. Rather than find that quote, you drew at straws in your attempt to seek out my comments about "nothing" and thereby conclude I asserted that anti-tithers do not give? What a laugh!

      Let me demystify your confusion. The part of my comment you last quoted was in reference to an earlier rejoinder about how anti-tithers do "nothing" in reference to the "more serious issues". As we know, giving is not the "issue" - and you also acknowledged that, did you not?

      So, what was I referring to initially? Here is my previous comment -

      "What have anti-tithers done ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE CHURCH? CHILD MOLESTATION and ILLICIT SCANDALS from church authorities? THEOLOGIANS who would rather LIE with FALSE CLAIMS of their degrees and doctrines TO GIVE ATHEISTS THE GROUNDS TO MOCK THE CHRISTIAN FAITH? Hypocrites in church who complain about less serious matters while they ignore bigger issues that affect the Body of Christ?"

      Those were the issues I was referring to, and then at the end of that paragraph I asked this question -

      "Just how have anti-tithers and their celebrated monks tried to help sort out THESE BIGGER ISSUES and thus advance the Gospel?"

      In the very next line, my answer was this - "No - they just do ... NOTHING!" etc., etc.

      Now, the "nothing" is not in reference to anti-tithers "giving" or "not giving". It should be obvious that it was in direct reference to what I said in the previous paragragh about "THESE BIGGER ISSUES" - the bigger issues which I have outlined and now highlighted in capitals in my quote above.

      This should not have been so challenging for you to grasp, would it? Nobody who understand English comprehension would assume that by "nothing" I was referring to "giving", since we both already have acknowledged that giving is not the issue here!

      It is the sort of strawman fallacy you endlessly repeat that makes me wonder if I had been engaging someone who's very academically challenged. So, I'll just leave the rest of your reharshed mantra as they are - it's just not my fault you find them a mystery.

      Enjoy.

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      Your quote 1 (a few hours ago): I did not assert anywhere that anti-tithers were or have been "against giving" - please quote me where I might have said so, and I'd gladly consider it. If you don't find me making any such assertions, what is the substance to your allegation that I had the notion that anti-tithers were "against giving"?

      Your quote 2 (less than 2 days ago): Besides the fact that there are far more serious issues that have hindered the spread of the Gospel, it seems rather comical that anti-tithers who are wholly ignorant of the fact have nothing to tell us about what THEY themselves have done to advance the Gospel. Like I said, they just sit by the sidelines, complain and grumble - AND CHARACTERISTICALLY DO NOTHING ALL DAY BUT ARGUE ABOUT HOW NOT TO GIVE!

      You seem to be very confused. Constantly chasing your tail all day is obviously making you dizzy!

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      Your quote: If Paul was concerned that tithing was responsible for causing the huge mess you complain about, I would see some substance in your claim – after all, I once vehemently opposed tithing for Christians until I found that many of those whose arguments I had latched unto were simply dubious.

      My response: How could Paul complain about a practice that was not being done by the early church, therefore said mess from ‘tithing’ didn’t exist in his day?

      I have read, though I can’t reference it just now, that THE CHURCH WAS NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED TO COLLECT TITHES UNTIL c.700 AD.

      There is a blog called “Slave to the Word” which I have just recently looked at, that details the progress of ‘giving’ as recorded by the early church fathers.

      It is an interesting read - you might learn something.

      In a particular post the blog mentions that Justin Martyr, who recorded how church services were operated in his day, wrote that churches mainly took up offerings from the rich to be given to the poor.

      He records that two offerings were taken – one consisting of food only, consumed by the congregants and taken to those absent; the second being food and money for the clergy and for the poor. No mention is made of tithes or of offerings being called ‘tithes’.

      From what I gather, no mention of tithing was made in the first few centuries after the apostolic writings, so ‘tithing’ did not simply ‘continue on’ from the OT.

      Somewhere along the line, it seems during the mid 4th century, advocates of returning to tithing began amongst well-known Church Fathers.

      Six such notable men of the church apparently argued that if Christians wouldn’t sell all in support of the gospel, they should at least give tithes as the Jews did to support the clergy and the poor. What I read did not mention whether the Church Fathers expected tithes to be food, money or a combination of both, but it still seemed to take a few hundred more years before the church was ‘allowed’ to collect tithes from its members.

      The rest is history, as they say.

      Somewhere along the line, systematic giving in the form of TITHING was made compulsory in some denominations for membership / right-standing with God and curses were attributed to befalling the disobedient to the command to tithe.

      Tithes became the main source of giving in support of church building programmes, the clergy and the work of the gospel.

      The way in which this legalistic approach to giving hinders the gospel, in my opinion, is that it blurs the line of the pure, free gospel – as tithes are demanded to be paid rather than FREEWILL offerings received.

      You KNOW this puts a lot of people off of church and the ministers of the church, thus, why I say it can act as a hindrance to the gospel.

      Plus, some claim the ‘tithe’ to be the sole possession of the ‘pastor’(I know of ministers who teach this) – quoting OT scriptures in support, and equating the pastor to the Levitical priesthood.

      This then leaves only offerings available to support building maintenance, giving to the poor and mission.

      Well, as we know, for many, after giving 10% of income they don’t have much left over to give as offerings, so the work of the gospel often DOES SUFFER as a result. The pastor has taken nearly all that his members were able to contribute and he himself is living a very comfortable life while some others struggle to make ends meet, and the needy are rarely helped.

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      @ Tymon

      Your entire post concerning FOOD, FOOD AND ONLY FOOD from a few days ago IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

      The whole point is indeed that if Paul is basing Christian giving on Numbers 18/Deut 14 then support of ministers SHOULD ONLY BE FOOD.

      Number 18/Deut 14 is about food and that is not the way we 'tithe'/support to ministers today.

      But, blessing workers in the gospel with FOOD AND SHELTER (if indeed, it is done in like manner as the Levites who had no inheritance) IS how the early church supported gospel workers. And feeding the poor, needy and homeless IS how things were done in the early church. Food, food and only food.

      Feeding programmes and supporting the household of ministers with food etc. is an honourable way to support the work of God.

      So, agreed, it is impossible to reconcile Deut 14 and Numbers 18 with 1 Cor 9 UNLESS we give food.

      Giving monetary support CANNOT line up with the OT because that is NOT how it was done back then.

      So unless you base Christian tithing on "food" it would quite simply make your arguments untenable, wouldn't it, TYMON?

      Enjoy!!

      By the way, did I ever say that I have always held the view that tithing based on Levitical principles is wrong?

      Or did I not say that in the past I have tithed, owed tithes, tithed from plenty and from lack and given offerings in all sorts of way?

      But in recent years God has led me to research/re-visit how Christians are supposed to give. this I have said several times already 9don't you read my posts?)

      Maybe you would do well to read posts more thoroughly and not look for words you can jump on to try to make others look silly, presumably to make it seem as if you are winning an argument (which only you seem to want to engage in).

      Janet

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      Here is a summary of our debate concerning 1 Cor 9: 13-14. I have emphasised some of the main points by CAPITALISING THEM since I can’t highlight or underline.

      # 1 Your quote: A CHRISTIAN CAN ADOPT NUMBERS 18 without seeking a literal application of so-called 'SPECIFICS'. An argument of "SPECIFICS" is what I refer to as legalism in the literalist tradition. PAUL USED THE OT LAW OF MOSES FOR TEACHING SUPPORT OF NT MINISTERS without asking the Christian to adopt the "SPECIFICS" of ceremonial purification and all sorts! (1 COR. 9:13-14).

      #2 Your next quote: THERE IS NO VERSE IN THE BIBLE - OT OR NT - THAT CONDEMNS TITHING IN ITSELF. RATHER, THE NT USES THE SAME OT PRINCIPLE OF SYSTEMATIC GIVING IN SUPPORT MINISTERS AS WE FIND IN 1 COR. 9:13-14. That much is clear, and I have not seen you actually deny its veracity other than repeatedly arguing away from that very fact.

      # 3. My response: "Excuse me? 1 COR 9:13-14 MENTIONS NEITHER SYSTEMATIC GIVING NOR TITHING. The quote about muzzling an ox is from Deut 25:4 which Paul again mentions in 1 Tim 5:18, and simply tells us that ‘the labourer is worthy of his reward, especially those who labour in word and doctrine.’"

      # 4 Your response: IT IS TRUE 1 CORINTHIANS 9:13-14 DOES NOT SPELL OUT 'SYSTEMATIC GIVING' IN A-B-C FASHION - but that doesn't in itself deny the fact that systematic giving is taught in BOTH the OT and NT, as all informed Christians who study their Bibles know for certainty. You really do not have to wait until you see 'systematic giving' spelt-out in those verses in capital letters before you got the gist of my previous comments. Looking for those terms to be spelt out in A-B-C would be just as much in the same fallacy of an anti-tithing literalist who waits to find any other teaching in a passage of Scripture which is not spelt by name.

      # 5 My response: ‘1 COR 9 TEACHES SUPPORT OF MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL.’ Support could be one-off, it could be regular, it should be as one ‘prospers.’ NO METHOD IS MENTIONED. HOWEVER, 1 COR 16:1-4 DOES TEACH SYSTEMATIC GIVING, in that storing up of a gift/offering should be done on a weekly basis to be given at a future point (specifically in context, for the Jerusalem church as a gift as they were suffering famine at that time).

      # 6 Your response: YOU DO AGREE THAT THE NT TEACHES 'SYSTEMATIC GIVING' - YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT IT IS NOT IMPLIED IN 1 CORINTHIANS 9. RATHER, YOU FIND IT IN 1 COR. 16, EVEN THOUGH THERE'S NO VERSE IN THAT CHAPTER THAT USES THE PHRASE 'SYSTEMATIC GIVING'. SO, WHAT THEN WAS THE SUSBTANCE OF YOUR INITIAL REACTION WHEN IN VERY FACT YOU ARE THE VERY SAME PERSON QUOTING A VERSE THAT DOES NOT USE THE EXPRESSION THAT TROUBLED YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE?

      Double-talk, indeed.

      YOU are the one who mentioned systematic giving FROM 1 COR 9 with Paul ‘using’ the OT Law of Moses (you referred in the same comment to Numbers 18, which is about tithing).

      I DIDN’T AGREE THEN that 1 Cor 9 taught systematic giving (in same manner as Numbers 18) AND I DO NOT AGREE THAT POINT NOW.

      Is the substance of my initial reaction clear enough now?

      It hasn't changed.

      HOWEVER, I agree that systematic giving IS taught in 1 Cor 16.

      Systematic giving, AS YOU AGREED – IS NOT SPECIFICALLY ONE TENTH OF ANYTHING, might be, might not be. Might be based on Numbers 18 (Levitical tithe) but not specifically.

      Can we move on from this point now?

      Hope so.

      Janet

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      Janet Chandler 5 years ago

      @ Tymon

      With regard to 'freewill':

      Your quote:... Just yesterday even YOU used the word "freewill" in one of your rejoinders when you said - "We should also be taught that giving should be freewill" - but you didn't cough and had no qualms whatsoever in using that word which you will not find ANYWHERE in the NT, did you? NOR DID YOU REALISE that the word "freewill" is also 'Old Testament' and is used in the offerings of Israel in reference to animal sacrifices in the Law of Moses ("a freewill offering in beeves or sheep" - Lev. 22:21, KJV)??

      Nor did I realise???

      WRONG. Yes, I did realise.

      Or do you not realise that your statement that I did not realise is entirely WRONG?

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      Everyone following this blog should see how Tymon falsely accuses me of purposely being deceitful INSTEAD OF sticking to the issues and answering the questions posed to him by Janet. Apparently Janet has overwhelmed Tymon and Tymon now resorts to going back to an old topic which I have already explained many times.

      If I ever misled anyone with my DD degree, I am sorry for that. Until today I didn't realize the DD degree is issued differently in other countries. Now I see how someone could have been misled if they are in a different country and didn't know how the degree is given in the US. However, that is not my fault. I personally know of no one in the US that puts the word "honorary" in front of their degree.

      Tymon has continuously falsely accused me of being deceitful and has continuously harassed me on these blogs. He (or she) has deceived many by using different screen names on different blogs. Sometimes he (or she)uses a male name and sometimes it has been a female name as far as what I would associate the names with here in the US.

      Draw your own conclusions as to whether or not I have been deceitful or honest.

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      Gary Arnold 5 years ago

      As I pointed out, the Doctor of Divinity degree issued in the US is usually (always as far as I am aware of) an honorary degree, but the word honorary is seldom used.

      The fact that you ask the question did I ever use it shows your persistence in trying to make trouble. I already said I removed it because of people like you. And I already said I took the course even though I didn't have to. And it was, IN FACT, a part of my Christian education. All of my self-study is also a part of my Christian education. Nowhere did I say part of a formal education. Maybe you need to look up the word education in the dictionary.

      I did nothing wrong and nothing that I need apologize for. I removed the DD degree from the website and pdf ONLY because it was causing a problem with people like you. I stand by the fact that I have the degree, and that the course I took IS a part of my Christian education.

      Now, go stick your head in the toilet.

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      Tymon 5 years ago

      @Gary,

      Please bear a little godly conscience when you wave your duplicity in public. Here are a few questions for you to answer just so we know how conceited you continue to be:

      1. Did you NEVER claim a 'Doctor of Divinity' was part of your Christian "EDUCATION" in your PDF paper on your site for download? (Answer: YES, you actually did).

      2. Did you EVER state that the 'Doctor of Divinity' was an 'honorary degree' in that claim? (Answer: NO, you nowhere stated an 'honorary', but in very fact claimed it was part of your "EDUCATION" - a calculated lie).

      In both instances, you cannot deny the obvious, because you NEVER stated that the D.D. was 'honorary'; rather, you put it there as part of your Christian "EDUCATION".

      Your excuse that another pastor "advised" you to claim it as part of your EDUCATION does not wash the fact that you were deliberately deceiving yourself and all who fell for your sham!

      When someone claims that a degree was part of their EDUCATION, it is obvious they are claiming that they earned that degree by ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT.

      Did you earn your 'Doctor of Divinity' by academic achievement before claiming it was part of your Christian EDUCATION?

      (a) If not, why then did you claim it was part of your Christian "EDUCATION"?

      (b) If you never made any such claims of a D.D. as part of your Christian EDUCATION, why then did you go back to remove the sham claim?!? WHY?

      You do 'consider' your shameful claim as part of your "education", you say? And you believe that satan enjoys my comments - for what? For exposing your calculated fraud? Have you never read the verse in your Bible that says we should "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph. 5:11)?

      No wonder! It is this despicable behaviour coming from jaundiced-faced self-righteous folks like you that give Christianity the bad name that disgust unbelievers! How do you ever have the face to lie so calculatedly and then dress up to go and preach "truth" to ANYBODY?

      After having lied all your way through, come back and tell us that you were led by the Holy Spirit to act in such a duplicitous manner! Only liars would enjoy your continued deliberate falsehood without a conscience.